Title: dogs-msg
Subject: Medieval and SCA dogs.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, SCA, pets, dogs, hunting, handling, types, breeds, jobs

dogs-msg - 9/17/17

Dogs. Barding for dogs. dog collars. Medieval breeds.

NOTE: See also the files: dogs-lnks, medieval-dogs-art, Dog-Carts-art, Guinefort-art, cats-msg, pets-msg, rabbits-msg, ferrets-msg, hunting-msg, p-thts-animls-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com (Chris Doelle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Barding for my DOG
Date: 25 Jan 1995 13:57:36 GMT

I have a St. Bernard named Sam that is a large part of my SCA persona and 
was wondering if anyone knew of where I could find patterns/designs for 
barding for my dog.  I am open to any ideas - I will buy it if I have to 
, but prefer the thrill that comes in making it myself.  Thanks in advance
                                  Chris Doelle
                 a.k.a. Christian Bryant of House Canis Gigantis
                       cdoelle at starbase.neosoft.com

From: lsmith5696 at aol.com (LSmith5696)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Barding for my DOG
Date: 27 Jan 1995 23:53:07 -0500

Why yes.  There is a book on medieval hunting called 'The Hawk & the
Hound' which has descriptions of (and primary source illustrations) of
both quilted armor and brigandine for canines.  
               -----Master Johannes the Black, Meridies

From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...
Date: 13 Oct 1995 16:35:29 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In article <polsons-1210951823500001 at slip191.sirius.com>,
The Polsons <polsons at cruzio.com> wrote:
>In article <45i99gINN2eq at sphinx.sps.mot.com>, markh at risc.sps.mot.com
>(Mark.S Harris) wrote:
>
>> > There's even a dog collar
>> >museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is
>> 
>> Could you please post the citation for this book (and the cost if
>> you know it?). I'm sure there are some dog owners who might be
>> interested in period dog collars. Heck, I'm interested in seeing
>> what the book has to say, and I don't have a dog.
>
>Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this?

Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who
is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in
Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she
is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book
by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland.

Corun (of the paragraphical sentences)
===============================================================================
   Corun MacAnndra   | 		Over the router and through the bridge
 Dark Horde by birth | 		    To Grandmothers page we go
   Moritu by choice  | 

From: sjaqua at ix.netcom.com (Scott Jaqua )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: dog collars
Date: 13 Oct 1995 01:47:56 GMT

    Hi- found the book- "Four Centuries of Dog Collars at Leeds Castle"
ISBN 0 85667 0731
    If anybody wants more info, let me know.
    Allesaundra de Crosthwaite

From: corun at access2.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: TI article on dog collars (Was: YKYITSCAW)
Date: 14 Oct 1995 11:09:20 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Lady Alianora has asked me to forward this since her newsfeed is
currently not functional and she has no way to read or reply to the
Rialto.

Corun

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 14 Oct 1995 10:17:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Stephanie Malone Thorson <smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk>
Newgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...

On Fri, 13 Oct 1995, Corun MacAnndra wrote:

> >Wasn't there an article in Tournaments Illuminated a few issues back on this?
> 
> Yes, written by Lady Alianora Munro, she for whom the world turns, and who
> is currently enrolled and ensconced at the University of St. Andrews in
> Scotland (which I understand is somewhere in Harplestane ;-), where she
> is dilligently working on her Doctorate, translating and editing a book
> by a 16th century friar on the History of Scotland.

The article was in _TI_ No. 111, Summer 1994, for the curious.  I'm 
available for discussion, but only by private email since my newsfeed is 
currently down "due to serious disk problems."  It must be bad, if they're
telling the users it's bad.  I'm getting to respond here through a little 
creative email technology.

Cheers,
Alianora
who thinks everyone should have a pet Mongol to extol their virtues.
*****************************************************************************
Stephanie M. Thorson			*  SCA: Lady Alianora Munro
University of St Andrews		*
St Andrews, Scotland			*  Clan White Wing ... coming
email smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk		*  soon to a kingdom near you!
*****************************************************************************

From: jmaxson at osf1.gmu.edu (Jennifer L Maxson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: YKYITSCAW...
Date: 19 Oct 1995 13:23:35 GMT
Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA

Scott Jaqua (sjaqua at ix.netcom.com) wrote:
: holsten at nature.berkeley.edu (Donna Holsten) writes: 
: >You're at an event with your two dogs--the Rott and the Schipperke,
: and 
: >someone asks what kind of dog the "little black one" is.  You start
: into 
: >the usual "They're Dutch dogs that go back as far as the 16th Century;

: >someone wrote about a pair of them saving Duke So-and-So..."  
: >
: >And then the questioner cuts you off with "Don't you think that
: documenting 
: >your *dogs* is a BIT MUCH!?"
: >
: >Joanna (and Calvin, and Eleanora)

:     Nope, I document my pets. My Curly-Coated Retrievers, Brittanys,
: and yellow naped amazon parrot are documentable. My Labrador
: Retrievers, albino corn snake, and Jersey wooley rabbit are not. Heck,
: I even document and make period dog collars! There's even a dog collar
: museum at Leeds castle in England. Yup, I've got the book. (Is
: obsessive compulsion spelled with a hyphen?)
:     Allesaundra de Crosthwaite
:     Mrs. Scott Jaqua 

Yep.  You're right.

	I saw the "dog collar room" at Leeds Castle, Kent, England.
	Strange stuff there.  I was there in August, dog days of
	summer. =)  That's where we learned that all the spikes
	were there to protect the dog from other wild predators,
	since they usually attack at the neck.  Never thought about
	it before.  Like I said, after touring the castle, the
	room was a bit odd.

Cheers.

From: cmleston at msn.com (Christine Leston)
Subject: Re: Beef and Cattle Raising (Was: Re: Any word from 30 Year)
Date: 23 Jun 96 18:39:37 -0700
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

I don't know about the size of cattle in Medieval times, but it is 
true that dogs have been used for herding cattle. Corgis (like Queen 
Elizabeth's favourite pets) were trained to nip at their heels and 
herd them in the right direction.

Show bulls tend to be a lot larger than cows.

Brigid of Astbury.

From: savaskan <savaskan at electriciti.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Cattle  Dogs (was Beef and Cattle Raising)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 01:00:11 -0700
Organization: ElectriCiti, Inc.

Jimmy Patrick wrote:
>         Cattle (today) are harder to drive with dogs because 1) the dogs are
> so small to them, and 2)cattle -esp. cow with calf- are more ornery
> than sheep.  There are several dog breeds just for cattle driving and
> the better herding dogs can be easily trained to herd cattle.
> (see http://worm.biosci.arizona.edu/Stockdog/stockdog.html)
> Many people don't train their smaller dogs for cattle because if the
> dog (or the person) goofs up the dog can die.
> 
Absolutely true. Most of us think of the smaller shepherd breeds, but 
many of the larger farm dog breeds were developed from cattle droving 
dogs. While most dog "breeds" were codified in the 19th century, many 
had been bred for purpose without standardization for centuries prior. 
Eventually people selected them for specific traits and they became 
breeds. In some cases this became extreme and the dogs lost their 
ability to work cattle.  Some examples of modern breeds which are 
descended from these dogs are the Appenzell Cattle Dog, the Bernese 
Mountain dog, the Entlebuch Cattle Dog, the Great Swiss Mountain Dog, 
(Austria/Switzerland) the Bouvier des Flandres (the Lowlands), Old 
English Sheepdogs, Saint Bernards, Mastin de Espanol, and Rottweilers. 
The only small dog I know which I know is currently used extensively 
with cattle is the Australian Cattle Dog and it has quite an attitude!

There is an extinct breed which was one of the founding breeds of the 
Fila Brasiliero called the Fila Terceirense, a cattle herding dog from 
Portugal which was brought to Brazil in the 1500s by colonists. One of 
the reasons the Fila Brasiliero is particularly aggressive supposedly 
because it has to deal with a particularly nasty breed of cattle.

I raise Anatolian Shepherd Dogs, which are an ancient livestock guardian 
breed from Turkey (supposedly over 5,000 years.) They may have been the 
"Byzantine Mastiffs" and the basis of the Spanish mastiffs. They will 
guard cattle or any other animal that they consider their "flock", but 
they do not drive or herd them. Cattle do have problems with predators 
in some areas during calving season here in the US.  There are a number 
of very ancient and almost untouched period Livestock Guardian breeds 
which are almost unknown to most people such as Great Pyrenese, Maremma, 
Polish Tatra, Slovensky Cuvac, Kuvasz, and Caucasian Ovtcharka amoung 
others. These breeds would have guarded the livestock and the farms in 
period times, against human and animal predators.

Julianna
Savaskan Anatolians
http://www.electriciti.com/~savaskan/homepage.html

From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: 28 Oct 1996 17:09:46 GMT
Organization: IBM UK Laboratories Ltd.

"M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes:
>I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
>period.  This would include books, paintings or other artworks 
>describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, 
>collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
>related.

If you want a good modern book then there is an excellent book called 
'The Hound and Hawk' (or something like that) which details the quarry 
techniques of hunting, huntsment hawks falcons and the Dogs! I'll try &
find the refs. 

However you can cut out the middleman if you can get a copy of 'Master of Game'
by Edward Duke of York (of Agincourt fame) who wrote an English version 
of Gaston Phoebus's book on Hunting which is lavishly illustrated ... the 
illustrations are in the Bibliotheque Nationale de France at 
www.bnf.fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10.htm

Also the Devonshire Tapestries in the V&A have good illustrations of the use of 
dogs, including hounds, in various hunts.

Dave     

From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 16:12:56 -0600

david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key) wrote:
> "M. Jantz" <mjantz at freenet.mb.ca> writes:
> 
> >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
> >period.  This would include books, paintings or other artworks 
> >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, 
> >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
> >related.

Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the
history of the breed.  I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for
inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine. 
Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in
question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of
documentation.

Gospozha Akilina Ioannna Rostislavova (called "Newt")

mka Monica E. Barry
newt at smartnet.net

From: david_key at vnet.ibm.com (Dave Key)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: 31 Oct 1996 12:53:56 GMT
Organization: IBM UK (Hursley)

In <manfred-2910961612560001 at news.internetland.net>, manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte) writes:
>> In <Pine.SUN.3.91.961024131028.5708B-100000 at vger.cpnet.net>, "M. Jantz"
>> >I am looking for information related to the use of the dog in
>> >period.  This would include books, paintings or other artworks 
>> >describing/depicting the breeds, training, accoutrements (barding, 
>> >collars, etc), activities and pretty much anything else canine
>> >related.
>
>Many of the national breed clubs have books or magazines that give the
>history of the breed.  I documented the Borzoi (Russian Wolfhound) for
>inclusion in my heraldic device using an article in a breed magazine. 
>Many such articles are written by scholar and historians of the breeds in
>question and contain extensive bibliographies for the purpose of
>documentation.

Whilst I do not doubt the ability of most breed clubs to trace the ancestry
of their 'breed' there are dangers in following this path:
 
As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it
is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the 
Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little 
pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be 'a
little bit stretched' at times.

This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today 
can not be directly equated to medieval dogs. A comparison is the difference
between breeds & types of Horses (in Britain at least) where a cob is a type 
but a Welsh Cob Section D is a breed. The difference lies in pedigrees & without
them you have a type. Since pedigrees are a c19th thing (as regards dogs) even
similar names may not necessarily mean the same dog. For example c14th/c15th
English sources do list staghounds, buckhounds, deerhounds etc. but it would be
a poor historian who equated these directly to either the deerhound as we know
it today (or even the stag hound ... which is more like a large beagle today!).

Also consider the problems that the medieval horse has caused ...  the Shire horse is always described as the descendent of the Destrier ... but whatever its 
origins ... it is not the same thing now.   

The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original descriptions (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) & approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same. Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the 
medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound
(much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds).
Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be
used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds.

Dave   

From: manfred at internetland.net (James M. Politte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hounds in Period
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:59:32 -0600
 
> As a keen member of the Deerhound Club (one of the oldest breed clubs) it
> is very noticeable the 'debate' between the Deerhound supporters & the 
> Wolfhound supporters which is the older breed ... this has not a little 
> pride attached to it ... so the objectivity of some breed clubs can be
> 'a little bit stretched' at times.

Hmmm... We don't seem to share this kind of conceit on this side of the
ocean.  The BCOA acknowledges that our breed is old in its origins but
could hardly be considered the same dog that was being bred and used for
hunting in the Middle Ages.  The earliest documentation that I've
encountered was a paper by a Russian scholar (translated to English) who
mentions the breed in a form truer to our present type in the late
16th/early 17th century.  I don't doubt that Scottish Deerhounds are an
older breed but I could honestly care less whose dog is the "most
period".  Borzoi barely squeaked in under the wire to be considered
"period" as far as I'm concerned, and that's good enough for me, AND the
heralds.  

> This is further complicated by the fact that 'breeds' as we know them today 
> can not be directly equated to medieval dogs.

This fact does, indeed, wound the pride of my Irish Wolfhound fancier friends.

> The best you can do is to look at the illustrations & read the original
descriptions
> (for which Gaston Phoebus & Edward of York are the best sources I know) & 
> approximate ... but be honest about the fact that these MAY not be the same. 
> Hence when talking about my deerhounds to the public I stress that to the 
> medieval man these would have been lumped into the category of greyhound
> (much as a deerhound, borzoi afgan wolfhound etc. are all sighthounds).
> Edward of York does differentiate between large & small greyhounds ... to be
> used according to the quarry ... but they are all greyhounds.

Somebody asked for help with sources, I gave it my best shot.  I'm sorry
if my response was less than pleasing to you.  I believe that the original
poster was enquiring as to various sources of information on ALL of the
hound breeds, not just greyhounds.  Picky-picky!
 
> Cheers,
> Dave   

---Monica, who was looking to help somebody find different sources of
information, NOT pick a fight.
newt at smartnet.net

From: dbeasthlr at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Horses and Hounds in the SCA by Donwenna
Date: 2 Dec 1996 17:20:26 GMT

Greetings from Lady Donwenna Beast Healer,  SCA Officer for Animal
Activities under the Marshallate,  
The Animal Acitivities are comprised of Horses and Hounds.  The Hounds
Activities have begun with Hound Coursing and are adding in other period
activities like draft work and HuntingThese events are fairly new to the
SCA and are still under development. My SCA-wide  Deputy 
for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf of Midrealm and he can provide further
info on the topic.

Equestrian activities are comprised of Mountee Military Training
Exercises, Mounted Progresses/Processionals, and Quadrilles.  Horses are
garbed in all manner of caparisons including armour and period tack. 
Equestrian Marshals must be present and a special Equestrian Insurance
must be activated in order for horses to be present at any event.

The Gulf Wars is an Interkingdom event that includes Heavy Weapons war
scenarios at a fort, Mounted Royal Progresses when every Royal present and
Their retainers [over 30 horses and riders] Progress thru out the
encampment, Hound Coursing, InterKingdom Equestrian Competition, and A/S 
competition, and many more take place.  LAst year Meridies, Middle, East,
Calontir/Caid [won first place], Ansteorra Equestrian Teams all competed 
in  on a special course.  The course was a timed event featuring Ringtilt,
Spear Toss, Pigsticking Rescue the Damsel, and Beheading the Enemy.  

For more info on Hounds and Horses and for a contact person in your
Kingdom, please email me your name and Kingdom to donwenna at sos.net and
reply here as well so that we can continue to share info with everyone
here.

Donwenna 

From: earlofwarwick at msn.com (Robert Carteer)
Subject: RE: Greyhounds
Date: 22 Dec 96 04:15:02 -0800
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

I remember seeing a wonderful collection of hound collars at an 
English stately home somewhere (can't remember where now) they were 
made from iron or silver and red velvet lined, two half-collars 
hinged on one side and clasped shut with a little padlock at the 
other. I remember thinking how nice my slave would look in one.

Rob Carter
earlofwarwick at msn.com

From: charmchase at aol.com (CHARMCHASE)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need Advice on Greyhound Hunting Party
Date: 15 Dec 1996 00:21:03 GMT

The Corrigan's said
>Hi!  We're the Corrigans and we're active in greyhound adoption.  We
>will be attending a Renaissance fair next year with a group of
>greyhounds and their owners.  We'd love to go as a properly costumed
>hunting party, but have no clue where to start.  
>
>Can anyone recommend a good web site?  We have several questions just to
>start:
>
>   1) Is there a Renaissance costuming e-mail discussion group?
>    If so, how do we subscribe?
>
>  2) Did people of that time costume their greyhounds in any way?
>
>   3) Is there a standard costume for hunting parties?  Could it be
>      adapted for a large group of very diversely-sized people?
>
>   4) Are there Renaissance costume patterns available anywhere on
>      the Internet?
>
>   5) Anyone know of any hunting party pictures we could use as a
>      "go by"?

1) Don't know(havn't had computer access that long)

2) Yes, the Greyhonds were the dogs of nobles and quite often you can read
about gifts of greyhounds to kings presented
    with gold leashes and collars. Your quickest references are the
Multiflure Hunt Tapestries or the Maximilian Hunt Tapestries

3) Use the Maximilian Tapestries ( can be found in books on the Louvre)  

4) refer to #1

5) refer to #2

Best of luck. Send pictures!
THL Elizabeth Curry ,Keeper of the Meridian Queen's Pack

From: SOSUSER at sos.net (SOSFULLUSER)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Coursing Hounds and other Hound activites
Date: 29 Dec 1996 07:15:49 GMT

For those folks who have an interest in utilizing dogs in the SCA, 
my SCA Deputy for Hounds is Master Gordan Beawulf.  He can network you 
with fellow SCA Hound enthusiasts in your Kingdom and provide you with 
basic info and the Hounds Guidelines.  He can be reached at 
GordanOL at aol.com

Donwenna Beast Healer, SCA Marshallate for Animal Activities

[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Re: Period Ornamentation for Pets
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:16:42 +0100 (BST)
From: "S. M. Thorson" <smt2 at st-andrews.ac.uk>
To: atlantia <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Tehair, if you have a look at my article in the Summer 1994 _TI_, (Issue
#111, I think, article called "Medieval Collars for the Modern Dog" or
some such) I give some sources in my bibliography there.  I also describe
the process by which I make collars for my own dogs.  With your mastiff,
I'd recommend getting fairly heavy welded metal hardware so if she decides
to pull, she won't bend the rings out of shape.

I *have* been known to take commissions for collars in the past (from as
far away as Caid, once) but I'm in PhD end-game right now with a target
submission date of 15 August, so my schedule is booked for the next couple
of months.  :-)

Alianora
*****************************************************************************
Stephanie M. Thorson                    |  SCA: Lady Alianora Munro
Dept. of Scottish History               |  Clan White Wing
University of St Andrews                |  Tarkhan, Khanate Red Lion

Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:15:18 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Bones and shells

>stefan at texas.net writes:
><< Do we have any evidence of folks feeding dogs from the table in period
>this way? Perhaps in an illumination or a written report of a feast? >>
>
>There are several illunminations showing dogs running around the feast hall.
>They appeared to be greyhound type animals in build and appearance. I do not
>have any ready references but a perusal of  Books of Hours should provide you
>with the visual evidence.
>
>Ras

There's also an illus. in the Duc de Berry's book of Hours (January)
showing little runty dogs *on the table* licking out the plates.  There's a
greyhound on the floor.

Cindy/Sincgiefu

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 01:10:17 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

<< Do we have any evidence of folks feeding dogs from the table in period
this way? Perhaps in an illumination or a written report of a feast? >>

A number of illuminations have pictures of small dogs running around the
top of the table.  Look at the table in the January calendar page of the
Tres Riches Heures.  There's also a servant who appears to be feeding a
small greyhound on the floor.

Food in History, Tannahill, has a 15th C. woodcut from Ferrara showing
all sorts of bones and stuff on the floor surrounding the table of
diners.  Several types of dogs are gnawing on them. p. 232.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 98 21:31:25 PST
From: "Tim & Dee Henry" <timdee at sgi.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

> Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval
> household?  I had someone tell me about bull mastiffs as war dogs, but what
> about what I think of as typical hunting dogs today: hounds (beagles, bassets,
> blood) terriers, springer spaniels, labradors.  Would these be considered
> newer breeds or changed from medieval times?

These are the only ones in the one book that have dates that are in the
SCA's time frame, or mention specific times which I think are within the
SCA's time.  I could be wrong on some of the "dates".  This is from my book:
"How to Choose & Care for Your Dog" by Joan Palmer, copyright 1982.

Italian Greyhounds, Bichon Frise, Papillon, Lowchen, English Toy Spaniel,
Cavalier English Toy Spaniel, Japanese Spaniel (AKA: Japanese Chin),
Miniature Dachshund, Pug,  Cairn Terrier, Irish Terrier, Standard Dachshund,
Skye Terrier, Basenji, Scottish Terrier, West Highland White Terrier, Cocker
Spaniel (English), Beagles, Pembroke Welsh Corgi, Cardigan Welsh Corgi,
Welsh Springer Spaniel, Field Spaniel, Shar-Pei, Bulldog, Puli, Finnish
Spitz, Whippet, Standard Schnauzer, Catahoula Leopard Dog, English Shepherd,
Swiss Hunting Dogs, Keeshond(Was know preceding the French Revolution),
Samoyed, Standard Poodle, English Springer Spaniel, Clumber Spaniel,
Elkhound, English Foxhound (Crossed between the Talbot & St. Hubert Hounds
which are extinct and came from the Norman Invaders to England), American
Foxhound, Harrier, Plott Hound, English Coonhound, Pharaoh Hound, Ibizan
Hound, Sloughi, Saluki, Afghan Hound, Greyhound, Bearded Collie, Rough
Collie, English Setter, Gordon Setter!
 , German Shepherd, Boxer, Hovawart, Chow Chow, Otterhound, Rottweiler,
Rhodesian Ridgeback, Briard, Vizsla, Kuvasz, Bernese Mountain Dog, Polish
Sheepdog, Old English Sheepdog, Estrela Mountain Dog, Anatolian Karabash,
Tibetan Mastiff, Borzoi, Bloodhound (was brought to England by William the
Coqueror in 1066), Irish Wolfhound, Scottish Deerhound, Great Pyrenees
Mountain Dog, Maremma Sheepdog, Komondor, Mastiff (NOT Bull Mastiff), Great
Dane, and the St. Bernard.

Dierdre

Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 21:46:27 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Table Puppies

Dogs in paintings with food.  Okay.  I'm not very familiar with breeds of
dog, so I've probably erred on the identification.  Here are a few for your
collection.

Bear

Carlo Cane, The Hunting Picnic, mid-17th Century, there is hunting hound I
can't identify, but the visible conformation does not match a greyhound or
whippet.

Vincenzo Campi, The Kitchen, mid to late-16th Century, King Charles Spaniel.
        The Fish Seller, possibly a Maltese (European lap dog from
Antiquity) or a spaniel.
        The Poultry Seller, Maltese (?)

Aristocrats At a Lunch Eating Gamberi, from Theatrum Sanitatis, 14th
Century, mastiff (?).

Jacopo Bassano, The Element of Earth, mid to late 16th Century, spaniel.

Giovanni Garzoni, The Old Man of Artimino, mid-17th Century, mastiff (?).

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 00:27:11 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

timdee at sgi.net writes:
<< Yes you would have different breeds for different hunting activities.
Like the Great Dane was used in The Middle Ages as a body gueard and to
chase wild boar. >>

Miniature greyhounds were carried around in those big drooping sleeves during
the Italian Ren.. Dachshunds were used originally as hunting dogs because they
could go into animal holes. Standard French poodles were bird dogs. And
terriers were used for rat catching. Mastiffs were trained as war dogs and
armored when sent into battle.

Ras ( Whose dream is to own a miniature greyhound and a mastiff at the same
time. Imagine the cute little miniature greyhound dressed in Italian Ren
riding around on the back of a fully armored mastiff. ;-))

Date: Tue, 1 Dec 1998 03:22:57 EST
From: Varju at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

pndarvis at execpc.com writes:
<< Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval
 household?  >>

Puli's and the Komondor are period for Hungary, having been brought in by
the Magyars.  A later period Hungarian dog breed is the Kuvasz who is first
mentioned in documents about the Hungarian King Mattyas Hollos (mid-1400's).
Mattyas is said to have stated that he trusted his Kuzasz more than any
person.

Noemi

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:45:47 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Table Puppies

<<
 Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval
 household? >>

Schipperke's are period.  My Mistress (Elaina) has a painting on her
wall from period that shows a Schipperke (although it looks different from
the breed now) .  They are little dogs from Belgium.

Murkial
(Whose proud little Schip went with her to a couple events)

Date: Wed, 2 Dec 1998 13:57:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Donna Hrynkiw <donna at Kwantlen.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

Greetings from Elizabeth,

On Mon, 30 Nov 1998, Shari Burnham wrote:
> Speaking of greyhounds, what other dogs would be typical in a Medieval
> household?  I had someone tell me about bull mastiffs as war dogs, but what
> about what I think of as typical hunting dogs today: hounds (beagles, bassets,
> blood) terriers, springer spaniels, labradors.  Would these be considered
> newer breeds or changed from medieval times?

Almost all new and even so, many have definitely been changed. (Insert
cranky rant about how the AKC and their ilk have damaged dog breeds here.)

If you're curious about a particular breed, I'd go to one of the breed
clubs and ask them. Many have material available online. Eg. You can
view the Poodle History Project page at:
   http://www3.sympatico.ca/emily.cain/
(But do bear in mind that these people's passion is their dogs, and
not good research.)

>  I am also under the assumption (going on
> the food theme) that you would have specific types of dogs for specific
> types of hunting

Yes -- sight hounds vs. scent hounds vs. retrievers etc. Some breeds of
dogs were bred to chase something they could see ("sight hounds") vs.
others who were meant to smell out game ("scent hounds") vs. still others
who were meant to bring back game that had been brought down ("retrievers")
by either arrow or falcon/hawk.

The Unicorn Tapestries have good realistic images of many dogs. They look
like Black Labrador Retrievers to this untrained eye.

Elizabeth Braidwood
Who keeps two standard poodles.

Date: Thu, 3 Dec 1998 02:48:30 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Table Puppies

The small dogs at the feet of tomb monuments are there to signify
'loyalty', so there must have been enough of them around to create the
'good old dog' idea.  In my costume books, and brasses, the dogs might be
small beagles, there's a very fuzzy terrier-type at the feet of Giovanni
Arnolfini and his bride; a tallish spaniel stands in a Flemish street
scene; mastiffs are in the hunting books, in the specified kennel care
book; lots of small, indeterminate types (or bad artists).  Of the
greyhound type, I've seen a variety of sizes--deer hound, greyhound, and
whippet.

In the 17th C. we see a lot of spaniels in the royal English portraits,
but I don't know if the artists got better or the dogs were a new breed.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 15:10:48 -0400
From: Karen Larsdatter <karen at stierbach.atlantia.sca.org>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Hunting dogs

One place you might want to check online for pictures of medieval
hunting dogs is "The Book of the Hunt" at the BNF (http://www.bnf.
fr/enluminures/manuscrits/aman10.htm).

There have been a few articles on dogs in "Tournaments Illuminated"
-- go to http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topi-ti.htm#animdogs to see
a list :)

Karen

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:24:59 -0400
From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Medieval dogs - Schips & Belgian Shepherds

On a web site in Belgium, about dogs of that country, there was a reference
to a dog carving from the 15th c.  It clearly showed a dog of the
Schipperke/Belgian Shepherd family.  I believe it was in, or on the wall
of, a town hall.  The man who had set up the site was very ill, so I was
never able to get the name of the town, or a reference for a photograph.

Has anyone ever seen a picture of such a carving?

Lady Carllein

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:50:20 +0800
From: Matthew Legge <mlegge at dph.uwa.edu.au>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Hunting dogs

The reason I came to the conclusion that todays racing greyhound are
smaller than the period hunting greyhounds came mainly from the description
of the type deer and boars hunted - ie big, tough and/or nasty, because
they were a challenge.

You can imagine what would be needed to knock over or pin a tired,
terrified animal, sometimes weighing in at 200 kg plus, which would, prior
to the hunt, be in the prime of its life.

From the description in "The Hound and the Hawk" the greyhounds, both
smooth and rough coats, were used in the last stages of the hunt. The
quarry would be driven past the dogs where it would be seen by the
greyhounds which would then join the chase. The greyhounds role apparently
was to catch up with the prey and knock it over, or trip it up so the
heavier, slower alaunts or other dogs could catch up and actually
participate in the kill.

In order to do this effectively, I believe that the greyhounds of the time
were most likely larger, had greater stamina than the modern version.

This is how I interpreted the passage. Does it sound plausible?

Maidiu Ruadh,
Aneala

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:02:45 -0700
From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Hunting dogs

> I don't think I have heard of "learchers" before. I will look into the
> breed you described. Do you have a source handy?

It's often spelled "lurchers" too. :) There's a dog by this name that's
still very common in the UK. :)

> The reason I came to the conclusion that todays racing greyhound are
> smaller than the period hunting greyhounds came mainly from
> the description
> of the type deer and boars hunted - ie big, tough and/or
> nasty, because they were a challenge.

We had a discussion about this not too long ago on the Borzoi list. For
those of you who aren't familiar with this breed, they are also called
"Russian Wolfhounds" and are a cross between a greyhound-type animal and a
heavier Russian hound similar to an Irish Wolfhound. Apparently they would
hunt with Borzoi in a brace or a trio. The dogs would work together to chase
down and pull down the prey and hold it until the hunter arrived with a net
to throw over the whole group. The hunted animal would then be either
killed, captured for use in training other hounds, or released. A woman on
the list who still hunts with her borzoi says that they are still very
effective at pulling down even large animals (elk and caribou in her case).

> In order to do this effectively, I believe that the greyhounds of the time
> were most likely larger, had greater stamina than the modern version.

Not necessarily - a speeding greyhound still has a lot of weight behind him
and if the dogs were hunted in groups like the Borzoi were, I can't see that
they would need to be much heavier.

Just my two cents - I'm not a greyhound person (just a Borzoi person :).

Julian ferch Rhys
kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com

Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 18:35:39 +0000
From: Aaron & Karen Benson <aaronben at olympus.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Medieval dogs - Schips & Belgian Shepherds

In Stutgard Germany,there is a statue of the night watchman and a
schnauzer.This would be the Standard schnauzer.
Karen B

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:38:55 -0400
From: "Gregory Stapleton" <gregsta at perigee.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Hunting dogs

Thoroughly period and a favorite of mine is the Beagle. :)
Gawain Kilgore / Gregory Stapleton

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 11:33:58 -0500
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: RE: Hunting dogs

On 27 Apr 99, at 13:36, Kirsten Garner wrote:
> Another thing to think about is that the larger "hunting" dogs such as
> mastiff-type animals were still around and had been around since Roman
> times. :) Or possibly earlier. :)

*much* earlier ... the romans brought mastiff breeds from greece ... they came
to greece from the middle east and some breeds can be tracked back to tibet and
their genesis a wolf-dog hybrids.

how many realize that the rottweiller (a personal favorite breed ... presently
have a rott/wolf male) was origionally a roman war-dog???  the proto lines were
brought into germany by rome and left there (the germans and celts were always
fond of large hounds ...).  in time their use was modified into herding and
carting dogs

for those interested in early use of dogs as hunting animals ....

_Hounds and Hunting In Ancient Greece_
Denison Bingham Hull
University Chicago Press, 1964, LC 64-23424

... includes and excellent bibliography

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:21:08 -0700
From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Hunting dogs

> *much* earlier ... the romans brought mastiff breeds from
> greece ... they came
> to greece from the middle east and some breeds can be tracked
> back to tibet and
> their genesis a wolf-dog hybrids.

I also seem to remember that when the Romans first hit the British Isles,
they took note at the large mastiff-type dogs bred there, as well as the
little "terrier"-type dogs. :) Apparently they were stunned that anyone
would breed a little dog that would chase its prey until it went to ground
and then go right in after it. :)

Of course, then there's the "Neolithic" terrier found in a burial in Orkney,
but I just won't go into that. ;)

Julian ferch Rhys
kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:13:39 -0500
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Hunting dogs

>  Hunting dogs in period, resemled the Grayhound,at least in
> the Europiean area and were called learchers(sp)They
> were somewhat smaller than todays grayhound, up intil
> about the Elizathetian era, when dogs were begining to
> be breed for size, speed, strength and different hunting
> abilities, such as retreaveing, tracking and other
> atributes on a more orgainsed basis.

Please note that there were other types of hunting dogs other than coursers such
as the greyhound/whippet.  There were bear dogs, bull dogs, dogs used for hunting moose and deer, and so forth.

For a discussion on the breeds used as hunting dogs by the Vikings, see:
http://www.realtime.net/~gunnora/vik_pets.htm

Baroness Gunnora Hallakarva, OL

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:36:13 EDT
From: <LrdRas at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Hunting dogs

jyeates at realtime.net writes:
<< how many realize that the rottweiller (a personal favorite breed ... >>

A  source for beginning basic info on the history of dogs (and other  pets) is:

The Illustrated Dog- 'Animals in Art' by Tom Howard. 1994. Chartwell Books,
Inc. ISBN 0-7858-0178-2

and

The First Pet History of the World by David Comfort. 1994. Simon and
Schuster. ISBN 0-671-89102-2

Both of these books are very basic but they contain pictures, quotes, and
references to period sources which provide a good starting place for further
research.

Ras

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:46:40 -0700
From: "Kirsten Garner" <kgarner1 at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: Hunting dogs

Another reference I've found useful from a zooarchaeological viewpoint (I'm
an archaeologist :) is the following. It's a bit more specialized, but still
very interesting. :)

The Domestic Dog : Its Evolution, Behaviour, and Interactions With People
by James Serpell (Editor), Priscilla Barrett (Editor). (1996)
Cambridge Univ Pr (Trd); ISBN: 0521425379

Julian ferch Rhys

Subject: Re: ANST - Dog Barding
Date: Wed, 05 May 99 20:10:21 MST
From: charmchase at mindspring.com
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> on a similar, but slightly different tack, anyone have any good sources /
> references for dog *armour* .. have a beast that might be able to pull it off
>
> and before anyone makes the inevitable comment ... it's NOT for me (g)
>
> 'wolf

There is a museum in Ohio that does have a suit of dog plate.
Also on the cover of the Hound and Hawk is a picture of the Maximillian
tapistry with an Alunt wearing a type of body armor while it is attacking a
boar. In the inner illustrations of the same book there are a few other
pictures of dog armor.
There is a Flemmish minature(I'm trying to find it again) of a knight on a
horse with blue and red barding, his greyhound runs before the horse with a
matching cape on.

Mistress Elizabeth
Owned by the one and only Luckey Dog

From: "Malachias Invictus" <X at X.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Dog Leashes?
Date: 22 Jun 1999 23:03:43 PDT

I am looking for documentation for period dog leashes (I will be entering
one in an A&S competition soon).  The only thing I have found so far is in a
picture in Le Livre de la chasse de Gaston Phébus.  Here is the URL for the
picture:
http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/images/jpeg/i5_0041.jpg

As far as I can tell, it is a piece of hemp rope wrapped around the owners
hand and attached at the other end to what looks like a sort of eye bolt,
which in turn is attached to a wide band of red cloth on the neck of the
dog.  Has anyone out there researched on this subject?  Does anyone know
what material the collar might be (and how it may have been dyed)?  How
would it have been attached?  Are there any good sources out there I should
look up?

Herr Malachias von Morgenstern
Kapitän der Galatea
Danegeld Tor/Cynagua/West

From: excmairi at aol.com (EXCMairi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Dog Leashes?
Date: 24 Jun 1999 12:24:26 GMT

>I am looking for documentation for period dog leashes (I will be entering
>one in an A&S competition soon). 

My husband, Sir Mord the Green (East Kingdom), found an article on Merovingian
dog collars for a friend of ours.  They were leather, with big silver studs on
them (just like something you might see in a modern S&M club!).

Mairi

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 22:36:08 -0500
From: "Tim & Dee" <timdee at sgi.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: New World Food Rant / Counter Rant

> Actually, Chihuahuas are widely available throughout the Known World although
> the expense of purchasing breeding stock may outweigh any benefits attained
> in the culinary field. Also remember that STANDARD Chihuahuas are not the
> tiny miniatures that most people associate with the breed. Standards are
> relatively large (e.g., up to knee high) and those were the type raised by
> the Aztecs for food purposes, SFAIK. Miniature and toy versions are a
> relatively modern phenomenon.
>
> Ras

Sorry to disagree with you Ras, but according to my dog's breed book the
Chihuahua NEVER was a large breed (knee high) bred to the toy size that it
is today.  Plus there is NO Miniature version of the Chihuahua, they are TOY
size only, in two coat varieties -- Long coat and Short coat.  The heights
vary but there is not a Miniature Chihuahua breed.   According to the
Chihuahua standards for size, the IDEAL size for show dogs, are:
    "Should not weigh more than 6 pounds, with 2 to 4 pounds preferred.
Although standard does not specify heght, dogs usually measure about 5"
tall."  (Harper's Illustrated Handbook of Dogs, page209.)

In my AKC dog book, they describe the Techichi as: "A small kind of dogs,
which were mute and did not bark, as usual, but were domesticated."  This
dog sounds very similar to the breed known as the
Basenji, which were popular in Egypt by the Pharaohs.  The Basenji are 16-17
inches at the shoulder (bitches & dogs, in that order for size).   The
Basenji do not bark, they make a chortleing (I am not sure how you spell
that but...) noise.  Mundanely I work in a Veterinary clinic and we have 3
Basenji's as patients, never have I heard them bark like you would expect
from a dog.  They are also only about 14-16 inches high at the shoulders.
We also have several (probably 100 or so) Chihuahua and chihuahua mixes that
come in to the clinic and none of them are over 16 inches high.  Some of the
mixes are pretty interesting combo's but none the less they are not over 16
inches high at the shoulders.

I don't know everything about animals and I would never claim to, but I do
know alot about chihuahua's, I grew up with them and I love them.

Dierdre

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 00:14:54 EST
From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Re: New World Food Rant / Counter Rant

On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 21:16:57 EST LrdRas at aol.com writes:
>Also remember that STANDARD Chihuahuas are not 
>the tiny miniatures that most people associate with the breed.
>Standards are relatively large (e.g., up to knee high) and those
>were the type raised by the Aztecs for food purposes, SFAIK.
>Miniature and toy versions are a relatively modern phenomenon. 
>
>Ras

The dog you are refering to is called "Itzcuintli", in the original
Nahuatl, it is small and hairless and was usually boiled or grilled. I
don't know if it is the modern chihuahua or even related to it.

Korrin S. DaArdain
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 08:19:53 MST
From: ches <ches at io.com>
Subject: ANST - was doggy costume Re: Cool garb (fwd)
To: SCA Ansteorra List <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

Here is an idea for the dog costumes. Also, simplicity looks like it is
making WishBone type costumes for dogs. The patterns are on their website.

Sincerely,
Chiara Francesca
ches at io.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 08:09:18 -0700
From: Diane S. Sawyer <tasha_medved at YAHOO.COM>
To: SCA-GARB at LIST.UVM.EDU
Subject: Re: Cool garb

--- "Diane S. Sawyer" <tasha_medved at YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Doggy garb?  Like Wishbone in "Romeo and Juliet?"  Or war dog armor
> and barding, that sort of thing?  Barding might look interesting...
>
> Tasha

And replying to myself...

There is a picture of dog armor on the Higgins Armory Museum website:
 http://www.higgins.org/Virtual_Tour/Hunting/hunting.html

Tasha

Subject: ANST - medieval names for K-9's
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 06:21:53 -0600
From: "Morgan Cain" <morgancain at earthlink.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

>   I was wondering if any one could tell me some of the
> medieval names for k-9.  Not their proper names, but
> what were dogs called?  All help would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> The Lady Sasha Dog

My dictionary reports that although "canine" is derived from "caninus" and
"canis" in the Latin, it did not enter English vocabulary until the 17th
century.

However, the terms "hund" and "dog" were in use before 1600, the latter in
Teutonic/Germanic areas and the former in the Anglo-Saxon realm.  I would
bet that Normans used the period version of "chien" and other peoples
similarly had their own words.

                                    ---= Morgan

Subject: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 01:01:50 -0600
From: Susan <catmafia at swbell.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

We have recently acquired a new member of the family and he is
precious.  He is a Havanese and a delightful boy.  Here is some info on his
breed, http://www.pets4you.com/pages/jomaran_havanese_2.html

The naming process will come soon, now to find something to go on
paperwork, seems like a persona task...

If any of you have been researching dogs' who's heritage goes back over 400
years, here is a great resource and the page I have listed has the rare
breeds listed.  http://www.pets4you.com/rare.html and this is their
inclusive breed page, http://www.pets4you.com/dogs.html

I would love to hear from anyone else who has gotten into researching dogs
from period,

Susan the Curious
Susan-the-Curious at swbell.net

Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds
Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:08:51 -0600
From: "C. Weed" <cweed at austin.rr.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

For a *fantastic* book on this subject pick up a copy of "The Hawk and the
Hound: the Art of Medieval Hunting" by John Cummings.  It lists at $15.36
and can be gotten at amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1842120972/qid=1008937815/sr=1-1/ref=
sr_1_8_1/107-4603199-3176540

One thing that the book touches on that I think is significant is that most
of the breeds that are commonly touted as 'ancient' are actually
reconstructed and usually differ from their true ancient cousins in at least
one significant defining characteristic.  The author states, for example,
that our greyhounds aren't quite as burly in the forequarters as their
ancestors and are also much milder in temperament (a breed improvement, in
most peoples opinion).

As you peruse the millions of different dog breed sites you'll see that a
large percentage like to claim ancient origin and preservation in form.  I
find most don't hold up to scrutiny.

Significant evidence exists only for a _very_ few breeds of a perfectly
preserved form and demeanor.  For one possible example see pages on the Cane
Corso:

 http://www.romancanecorso.com/   (a breeder page with the 'short version'
of the history)

 http://www.canecorso.org/history.htm (a slightly more comprehensive page
with limited documentation)

Other breeds that I have heard are well-preserved but have not yet
researched to verify are the Irish and Russian Wolfhounds, the Karelian Bear
Dog, the Scottish Deerhound, and a few of the various Mastiffs.  I'd love to
hear from anyone with any solid information on these or other authentic
ancients.

Happy Hunting,

Dieterich

Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2001
From: "C. L. Ward" <gunnora at vikinganswerlady.org>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

>Norwegian Elk Hound have been with the Norse.

There are a bunch of surviving Scandinavian breeds that date back to the
Viking Age or before.

Prior to the Viking Age, dogs both large and small were found in great
numbers in the Vendel graves in Sweden. By the Viking Age, fewer dogs are
found in each grave. The Oseberg ship burial contained the remains of four
dogs to accompany the women buried there. The Gokstad ship burial contained
six dogs buried with their elderly master. Other Viking Age graves in
Denmark, Brittany, the Isle of Man and elsewhere containing the remains of
dogs show that the custom of sending a person's dogs with them to the
afterlife was widespread throughout the Viking World.

Hunting Dogs
------------
Many of the dogs kept by the Vikings were hunting dogs, bred to assist in
the chase. Several varieties of Viking Age hunting dogs have survived to the
present day.

One of the best-known surviving Norse hunting dog is the Norwegian Elkhound
(Norsk Elghund), used for hunting large game such as moose and bear. The
Elkhound (a mis-translation, these are literally "moose-hounds") is derived
from the Torvmosehund or Swamp Dog, bred by the ancient Danes. Elkhound
skeletons have been recovered from a number of sites, including the oldest
dated remains from the Viste Cave at Jaeren, in western Norway in a stratum
dating from 4,000 to 5,000 BC.

The J‰mthund or Swedish Elkhound is a Swedish hunting dog of spitz type,
bred to hunt moose and sometimes bear. The J‰mthund is the national dog of
Sweden. Some experts believe the J‰mthund originated by selective breeding
from ancient aboriginal dogs very similar to the West Siberian Laika.
Genetic studies show that the J‰mthund is also very similar to the Norwegian
Elkhound, although larger.

Another spitz-type dog was used for hunting game from at least 1100 CE,
especially bear and moose, and modern descendants of this breed are called
Karelian Bear Dogs in Finland (also called Bjornhund in Swedish or
Karjalankarhukoira in Finnish). An identical breed is known as the Laika in
Russia. According to archeological records, dogs very similar to the modern
Russo-European Laika and the Karelian Bear Dog existed in northeastern
Europe and Scandinavia since Neolithic times. The breed standard for
Karelians and Laikas today calls for a black-and-white marked dog, but
originally the breed included individuals with coats of wolf gray of various
shades, red coats like the standard spitz, and black-and-tan specimens as
well.

The Karelian Bear Dog was used mainly for hunting small fur-bearing animals,
such as squirrels and marten. Like the Norwegian Elkhound, the Karelian Bear
Dog was also used in hunting moose, lynx, wolf and, as its name would
suggest, hunting the Eurasian brown bear (a bear species as large and
aggressive as the American Grizzly). In hunting bear, at least a pair of
Bear Dogs would be used to harry the animal, barking loudly, in order to
distract the bear while the human hunter came in for the kill. Karelian Bear
Dogs are being used today for bear control at Yosemite and Glacier National
Parks and in Alaska in the United States (see also "Bear Scarer" in People
Magazine 49:23 (June 15, 1998) p. 146).

The Norwegian Lundehund is the most ancient of the Nordic dog breeds. The
name Lundehund means "puffin-dog" after the dog's talent for hunting
seabirds. The Lundehund originates from the Lofoten Islands in the fishing
village MÂstad on VÊr¯y Island. The date of origin for the breed is unknown,
however scientific research indicates that the breed has been in existence
since before the last Ice Age. The Lundehund survived through the glacial
period in the ice-free zones, surviving by eating fish and seabirds. It is
thought that the Lundehund is actually a descendant of the primeval dog,
Canis forus, rather than the domesticated dog breeds, Canis familiaris. The
Lundehund was valued for its ability to hunt and catch puffins and other
seabirds. Lundehunds have several special anatomical adaptations that make
them particularly adept at hunting seabirds. Lundehunds are a zoological
rarity by having at least six fully developed toes on each foot. They can
close their ear canals at will and are able to bend their head 180 degrees
backwards over their shoulders. Their legs that are extremely flexible and
can be stretched straight out to the side, for greater ease in swimming or
in maneuvering in the narrow crevices in Norwegian sea-side cliffs where
their avian prey lives. The Lundehund was a valuable working animal, for the
export of down to Schleswig in Germany was a major commercial enterprise
from the Viking Age through the 16th and 17th centuries. In addition,
puffins were considerted a delicacy during the Viking Age. Households on
VÊr¯y would have anywhere from two dogs to a pack of a dozen, and at one
point the Lundehund's value was as great as a good milch cow. One Lundehund
could capture up to 30 puffins in one night, bringing them back alive to
their master. The popularity of the Lundehund waned after the introduction
of nets into the local bird-hunting practices.

Herd Dogs
---------
A variety of dogs were used by the Vikings in tending sheep, goats, and
cattle, and several of these breeds are still bred today. The most common
type of herd dog was a spitz-type sheep-herding dog, and these were
apparently in use throughout Scandinavia from the time of the Maglemose
Culture in Denmark (ca. 6,000 BCE).

The Norwegian Buhund is one of the oldest known Nordic breeds, and the
ancestral Viking herd-dog. The Gokstad ship burial includes the bones of six
Buhund dogs. The name "Buhund" comes from then Norwegian word bu, which
means homestead, farm or house: this term was first used in 1968 in J.
Ramus's book, A Sample Of Words From Norderhov. By the last quarter of the
7th century, the Vikings brought Buhunds to Shetland, Iceland and Greenland
It is thought that the Shetland Sheepdog and Iceland Sheepdog are descended
from Buhund ancestors.

When the first settlers arrived in Iceland in 874 AD, they brought with them
the ancestors of the Iceland Sheepdog (Õsl‰ndshunden in Icelandic),
sometimes called FÂrehund or "Friar-Hound". In addition to herding sheep,
the Icelandic Sheepdog was also used in working horses. There are references
to the Icelandic Sheepdog in many of the Icelandic Sagas, dating from 900 to
1300, and further references in 1400's and 1500's. The Icelandic Sheepdog
also appears in English literature such as William Shakespeare's Henry V
("Pish for thee, Iceland Dog! Thou prick-eared cur of Iceland!"; Act II,
Scene I). In 1650, Sir Thomas Brown wrote: "To England there are sometimes
exported from Iceland . . . a type of dog resembling a fox . . . . Shepherds
in England are eager to acquire them!"

The Vikings also used dogs to herd cattle. One of this type was the Swedish
Vallhund, also known as V‰stgˆtaspets, which are still bred today. The
Vallhund dates back to the 500's in Sweden. The Vallhund looks like its
close relative, the Welsh Corgi, and it is unknown whether the Vallhund is
the ancestor of the Corgi or vice versa.

The Lapp Reindeer Dog (in Finnish: Lapinporokoira) was used by the Saami to
domesticate and herd reindeer. Like the other spitz-type breeds, the
Reindeer Dog's origins are lost in antiquity, but almost certainly predate
the advent of the Viking Age. The Saami tell the legend of the Reindeer Dog:
"A long, long time ago a couple of dogs sat on a hill chit-chatting and
watching humans who were desperately trying to gather up a herd of reindeer
Having looked at the idle yelling and running around for a while the dogs
decided: "We could do that better". And so did the reindeer herdsmen get an
irreplaceable helper, a dog who himself wanted to help."  Even modern
Reindeer Dogs are often considered to possess the gift of speech - they
don't say much, say their owners, but they understand much.  There are both
Swedish or Finnish varieties of the spitz-type reindeer-herding dog
originally bred by the Saami. The Swedish variant is the Swedish Lapphund
(Swedish) or Suomenpystykorva (Finnish), while the Finnish variety of this
dog is the Finnish Lapphund or Lapinkoira (Finnish). Both varieties of
Lapphund were developed by the Saami as reindeer-herding dogs: after WWII
breeders in Sweden and Finland independently undertook to preserve the
species, resulting in two slightly varying types. Of the two varieties, the
Finnish Lapphund has best retained its instinct for herding, and is often
used on farms in Finland, while the Swedish Lapphund is more often found as
a pet.

::GUNNORA::

Subject: [Ansteorra] RE: Period Dog Breeds-Welsh Corgis
Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 20:41:36 -0600
From: "Anna Isbell" <a_isbell at hotmail.com>
To: <miranda_of_namron at hotmail.com>, <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

My good friend Vanessa,(Lady Miranda) fwded the series of e-mails about
period dog breeds to me.  I am responding because I wanted to clarify some
things about Welsh Corgis (Corgwyn)

First of all there are two separate breeds of Welsh Corgis.  Both are
believed to be very ancient.  They are more properly called either the
Cardigan Welsh Corgi (from Cardiganshire) or the Pembroke Welsh Corgi (the
kind the Queen of England has).  The Cardigan is claimed to be the more
ancient breed, that probably decended from the same stock as Basset Hounds
and Dachsunds, some claim that it can be traced to 1200 B.C.  The Pembroke
is the "newer" breed having more spitz-type characteristics which are
believed to come from the interbreeding of the Cardigans with Viking dogs
when the Vikings invaded Wales. There are remarkable similarities between
the Pembrokes and Norse herding breeds.

From this point in history the ancestral lines of Pembrokes and Cardigans
diverged until the rediscovery of them in Wales in the 1920's.  The dog
breeders who "found" them mistakenly believed they were the same breed and
bred them together for about 10 years.  This caused the naturally tailess
Pembroke, to once again have a tail because they were bred with the
Cardigans who have always had tails.  Now in modern times only about 20% of
the Pembrokes are naturally tailless due to this mistaken interbreeding.

I personally have a Cardigan Corgi, Ch. Kingsbury's Copyright a.k.a. "Jake".
   His mother is the top-winning Cardigan in the modern history of the
breed, and has won Best of Breed at shows like Westminster.  Most of the
articles below are from a Cardigan perspective because I have researched
them more than Pembrokes.  I hope you will find them interesting.

http://www.cardigancorgis.com
go to About the Cardigan, then History
http://www.cheysuli.com/cardigancorgis/cardigan.htm
a good brief history and explanation of the differences between Pembroke and
Cardigan
http://www.cwcorgi.com/Aragorn/history1.htm
describes the "rediscovery" of the breeds"
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/breeds/cardigans.html
Another short history, including a few facts not in the other articles
http://home.austin.rr.com/bryndir/CWCWebPage.html
This website dates Cardigan Corgis to possibly as early as 1200 B.C.
http://users.cybercity.dk/~bse9647/myweb/Cardigan%20History.htm
One of my favorite histories.

>Also, I would love info on other tailed dogs, know
>that Corgies, Australian Shepards and Heelers will throw with a short or
> >non tail, are there any others?

I know that the Schipperke is tailless and I believe that there are other
Spitz-type dogs that are also tailless but I can't name any others off the
top of my head. Here is an interesting website about how they are now
breeding bobtailed Boxers (by crossing them with Pembrokes).

http://www.nightrider.com/bu/1998%20issues/oct_bu_98/bobtail.htm

Incidentally, Australian Shepherds are not actually from Australia at all.
They are an American breed, developed here.  What is believed to have
happened is that their ancestors belonged to Basque shepherds (from the
Basque region in the Pyrenese Mts in France and Spain)who happened to arrive
in the U.S. with boatloads of Australian sheep. There is a Pyrenean Shepherd
that looks remarkably similar to the Aussie and is probably a much older
breed.

If you have any more questions please don't hesitate to e-mail me. My
specialties are Cardigan Corgis and Australian Shepherds.

Anna Jo Isbell
LowRyder Kennels
Norman, OK

>From: Miranda of Namron <miranda_of_namron at hotmail.com>
>To: annajo at ou.edu
>Subject: Fwd: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds
>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:21:11 -0600
>
>Last one...
>
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Susan <catmafia at swbell.net>
>To: ansteorra at ansteorra.org
>Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Period Dog Breeds
>Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 11:12:35 -0600
>...
>Othersite I came across today in another search,
>http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/ , it deals with a project through OSU's
>Vet program (by the way, they do an awsome openhouse usually every other
>late winter/early spring, if at all interested contact them and get on a
>contact list, it is incredible.
>
>As to the ancient breeds, the ones I have been doing the most reading of
>recently seem to have all come from the same type of small dog of the
>bichon background that ship captains had with them.  It seems that in the
>place that were isolated (islands mostly, either by water or mountains) the
>few dogs left with them have reinforced their genetic distinctions through
>a small breeding pool for hundreds of years.  I hope to soon be able to
>pull together info on this and on the different ones, might actually do it
>pretty and submit for display with A&S if anyone else wants to see what I
>find.  (not sure where in line of things to do this will fall)
>
>Also, I would love info on other tailed dogs, know
>that Corgies, Australian Shepards and Heelers will throw with a short or
>non tail, are there any others?

From: "Lilie Rose Sinclaire" <lilyrose.sinclaire at gmail.com>
Date: January 29, 2008 10:44:59 PM CST
To: "Barony of Bryn Gwlad" <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] dogs in Ansteorra

OMG - I just remembered a story from the Renn Faire in AZ that involved our puppy when he was little. Maybe the SCA situation is similar...

So we go out to the Faire with our brand new white puppy who is so tiny he fits in a basket, remembering that in the previous year we saw several people with dogs on leashes at the Faire. This time, the troll person says, "Sorry we cannot allow you to take your dog in." Not one to be easily turned away when a dog is involved, I inquired "Why not? He won't bother anyone and I *promise* he will be with us all the time." The attendant replies "Well, that's not really the issue. Last year we had a falconry demo and someone brought their Teacup Chihuahua. You figure it out."

Lilie

From: "willowdewisp at juno.com" <willowdewisp at juno.com>
Date: May 19, 2008 8:55:31 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] History and dogs

We talked about giving dogs awards. In the middle ages some people made one a saint.

Willow

From a period source St. somebody's words not mine.

370. The sixth thing to say is about insulting superstitions, some of which are insulting to God, others to man. The superstitions which attribute divine honors to demons or any other creature insult God. Idolatry is one example, or when wretched women sorcerers seek salvation through the adoration of saddles (sambuca) to which they make offerings, through the condemnation of churches and relics of the saints, through carrying their children to ant-hills or other places in search of healing.

This is what they did recently in the diocese of Lyons. When preaching there against sorcery and hearing confessions, I heard many women confess that they had carried their children to St. Guinefort. I thought he was some saint. I made inquiries and at last heard that he was a certain greyhound killed in the following way. In the diocese of Lyons, close to the vill of the nuns called Villeneuve, on the land belonging to the lord of Villars-en-Dombe, there was a certain castle whose lord had a baby son from his wife. But when the lord and lady and the nurse too had left the house, leaving the child alone in his cradle, a very large snake entered the house and made for the child's cradle. The greyhound, who had remained there, saw this, dashed swiftly under the cradle in pursuit, knocking it over, and attacked the snake with its fangs and answering bite with bite. In the end the dog killed it and threw it far away from the child's cradle which he left all bloodied as was his mouth and head, with the snake's blood, and stood there by the cradle all beaten about by the snake. When the nurse came back and saw this, she thought the child had been killed and eaten by the dog and so gave out an almighty scream. The child's mother heard this, rushed in, saw and thought the same and she too screamed. Then the knight similarly once he got there believed the same, and drawing his sword killed the dog. Only then did they approach the child and find him unharmed, sleeping sweetly in fact. On further investigation, they discovered the snake torn up by the dog's bites and dead. Now that they had learned the truth of the matter, they were embarrassed (dolentes) that they had so unjustly killed a dog so useful to them and threw his body into a well in front of the castle gate, and placing over it a very large heap of stones they planted trees nearby as a memorial of the deed.

But the castle was in due course destroyed by divine will, and the land reduced to a desert abandoned by its inhabitants. The local peasants hearing of the dog's noble deed and innocent death, began to visit the place and honor the dog as a martyr in quest of help for their sicknesses and other needs. They were seduced and often cheated by the Devil so that he might in this way lead men into error. Women especially, with sick or poorly children, carried them to the place, and went off a league to another nearby castle where an old woman could teach them a ritual for making offerings and invocations to the demons and lead them to the right spot. When they got there, they offered salt and certain other things, hung the child's little clothes (diapers?) on the bramble bushes around, fixing them on the thorns. They then put the naked baby through the opening between the trunks of two trees, the mother standing on one side and throwing her child nine times to the old woman on the other side, while invoking the demons to adjure the fauns in the wood of "Rimite" to take the sick and failing child which they said belonged to them (the fauns) and return to them their own child big, plump, live and healthy. Once this was done, the killer mothers took the baby and placed it naked at the foot of the tree on the straws of a cradle, lit at both ends two candles a thumbs breadth thick with fire they had brought with them and fastened them on the trunk above. Then, while the candles were consumed, they went far enough away that they could neither hear nor see the child. In this way the burning candles burned up and killed a number of babies, as we have heard from others in the same place.

One woman told me that after she had invoked the fauns and left, she saw a wolf leaving the wood and going to the child and the wolf (or the devil in wolf's form, so she said) would have devoured it had she not been moved by her maternal feelings and prevented it. On the other hand, if when they returned they found the child alive, they picked it up and carried it to a swiftly flowing river nearby, called the Chalaronne [tributary of the Saône], and immersed it nine times, to the point where if it escaped dying on the spot or soon after, it must have had very tough innards.

We went to the place and assembled the people and preached against the practice. We then had the dead dog dug up and the grove of trees cut down and burned along with the dog's bones. Then we had an edict enacted by the lords of the land threatening the spoliation and fining of any people who gathered there for such a purpose in future. 

From: "Carolyn Young" <caitlin37 at comcast.net>
Date: May 19, 2008 7:12:41 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] History and dogs

And don't forget Gelert.
1210 AD an Irish hound was sent as a gift to Llewellyn, Prince of Wales, by
Prince (later King) John of England, which hound was probably Gelert, slain
by Llewellyn under the misapprehension that the hound had killed his baby
son. Gelert's burial place gave its name to a town Beddgelert (grave of
Gelert).

Cheers,
Caitlin, Carolyn, Lyn, Mom, Grandma

To: Authentic_SCA at yahoogroups.com
Subject: To dye dog-collars and couples
Posted by: "Bookwyrm" bookwyrm.com at gmail.com   bookywyrm
Date: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:57 pm (PDT)

I'm looking at this recipe and am not quite sure of a couple of things . . .
first among them being whether the skins are salted raw hide (which would
explain all the washing), or pre-tanned hides. There seems to be a lot of
galls for straight dyeing, but the same source (Segreti per Colori) does
include them in dyeing thread, cotton, and silk as well; cloth obviously
would not need tanning.

Here; let me show you the recipe before continuing:

327. To dye dog-collars and couples a good and fine scarlet . --
Take the skins, wash them well with fresh water, and let them
dry; then take 3 oz. of roche alum to each skin, boil the alum
[in water], and when it is dissolved and tepid give each skin
two or three coats of lt. Then take for each skin 3 or 4 lbs. of
galls well pounded, boil them a little, and let them cool so
that you can bear your hand in the liquor, and then put this
water and galls into a bucket, and shake the skin well about in
this water, and let it remain in it a day and a night that it
may become soft. Then put it to dry, and while it is drying,
work it about in your hands that it may become soft. When it is
well dried, take 3 oz. of verzino well pounded for each skin,
and to each ounce of verzino put two bocali of water, and then
add two glasses of solution of tartar, and put it into the
verzino when it is boiled, and then add 1/2 oz. of gum arabic,
and put this dye into a glass vessel, as clean as possible. Then
take the grounds of the verzino, and add to it 3 glasses of
water, and make it boil until reduced one-half, and with this
water, boiled on the grounds, begin to dye the skin with a
paintbrush or a sponge, and let the dye be tepid, and so put it
on as often as necessary, hut do not put too much tartar (which
is its maestra), that it may not be too highly coloured; and
when you dye it, let it dry each time, and when it is dry rub it
with your hands, and then with the stick on the side of the
flesh to make it soft, and it is done.

ROCHE ALUM is, according to notes on the web version, potassium alum: the
stuff in the baking aisle

http://www.paintmaking.com/historic_pigments.htm claims that VERZINO is
brazilwood.

TARTAR may be the cream of tartar in the baking aisle? Natural dyeing sites
list it as a mordant, which may equate to "maestra".

Oak GALLS are awfully expensive by the ounce, these days. £2.86 for a 25g
packet from the UK would be . . . 64 packets for 3-4 pounds and a good four
hundred dollars. And that's assuming that customs would allow plant and
insect bits to be imported without a fuss. Are the galls I find for sale
less hydrated than the ones that a period shopper would find? Are they
supposed to break the bank? (http://www.renaissancedyeing.com/ is the site
I found for oak gall powder)
--
Bookwyrm and Empath
Ontario, Canada

From: "Pensoft Publishers, BookEast" <bookeast at pensoft.net>
Date: December 1, 2008 4:40:19 PM CST
To: "stefan" <stefan at florilegium.org>
Subject: New & antiquarian books from Pensoft Publishers

*************************************************************************
PENSOFT Publishers
Sofia & Moscow-based Academic Publishers and Booksellers
Geo Milev Str. 13a
1111 Sofia Bulgaria
Tel: +359-2-8704281
Fax: +359-2-8704282
E-mail:pensoft at mbox.infotel.bg
Pensoft Online Bookshop: WWW.PENSOFT.NET
*************************************************************************

THE SHEEP-GUARDING DOG OF ABRUZZO.
Breber, P, 2008
ISBN 9789546424372, , 145x210, richly illustrated by 200 color photos, scans
of historical document and portraits, bibliography, hardback
In English. 232 pp. EUR 30.00

The Author describes the dog kept and bred by the shepherds of
mountainous Abruzzo in Italy to repel wolves and bears from their
flocks. The way it behaves and works, its life history, and its
relationship to the environment are recounted. The dog is placed in the
wider perspective of the pastoral dogs of the Old World and historical
documents are provided to indicate the antiquity of the type. The
degenerating effect of kennel-breeding for conformation is stressed. The
book does not contain instructions for the private fancier intending to
keep one of these dogs as a companion.
To order online: http://www.pensoft.net/notes/14220.stm

From: otsisto <otsisto at SOCKET.NET>
Date: April 14, 2010 4:24:58 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [CALONTIR] perhaps an interest to canine historians

http://tinyurl.com/y32qdv3
http://tinyurl.com/yyk98ua
Dog Sketches by Antonio Pisanello ca.1395 - 1455

From: Kevinkeary at aol.com
Date: April 16, 2010 8:39:02 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Enders game and Re:  honor and animals

Wolves, gray or red, timber or arctic, are canis lupis.
Dogs once were canis domesticus, and thought to be hybridized in remote 
human history from wolves, jackals and other canines.
After examining their DNA, dogs have been reclassified as canis lupis  
domesticus -- merely a subspecies of wolf.

Kevin

===========
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:

On Apr  16, 2010, at 6:55 PM, Hugh & Belinda Niewoehner wrote:
<<< A  peculiarity of the wolf is that it cannot turn its head, because there is no joint in its neck, but must turn its whole body when it wishes to look behind, thus symbolizing people  stiff-necked and stubborn in sin. >>>

Oh? I hadn't noticed this. I'll have to watch my dog (Snowball, the   
dog that pulls the wagon) and see.

<<< Is she/he a wolf?  I don't know if it is true of all breeds, but  
seemed to be true for our thick necked ~75% timber/tundra wolf we   
had for fifteen years. >>>

No. American Eskimo. But I thought all dogs were descended from wolves  
and that isn't something I think that would have changed. In fact,  
since dogs and wolfs do cross-breed and bear fertile offspring, I'm  
surprised they would be classed as separate species, since I thought  
that that was the definition of a "species".  Hmmm. Something to check 
further.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous   Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: Bruce Lapham <murdochst at MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] canine activities
Date: December 24, 2013 8:30:26 AM CST
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

After just googling "medieval dog competitions" I came up with these two comments on coursing.

From http://www.gulfcoastgreyhounds.org/hist-mid-ren.html
"Coursing races, with dogs chasing live rabbits, became popular during the sixteenth century. Queen Elizabeth I of England (1533-1603) had Thomas, Duke of Norfolk, draw up rules judging competitive coursing. These rules established such things as the hare's head start and the ways in which the two hounds' speed, agility and concentration would be judged against one another. Winning was not neccesarily dependent on catching the hare (although this did earn a high score). Often the hare escaped."

From http://www.gulfcoastgreyhounds.org/course-rules.html

"Rules of Renaissance Coursing 

The following rules are transcribed from Country Contentment's, published in 1638 by Gervase Markham. Subheads have been added to each rule for easier reference and have modernized and standardized the spelling of words. Otherwise, the text under "rule" is verbatim from the eighth edition of Markham's book. The "interpretation" is a translation of what the rule means.

The Laws of the Leash or coursing, as they were commanded, allowed, and subscribed by Thomas late Duke of Norfolk, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth." 

I know the second source was written post period, but it references laws written by Elizabeth I, who died only 2 years and 3 months post period.

Coursing as a competition and not as a hunt is period.

Now that's not to say that we shouldn't find other ways to showcase our dogs, but I believe Sziggy said he wanted to be inclusive of activities rather than exclusive.  I'm just pointing out that coursing competitions are period and should not be left out.  Especially since they have already been run successfully at Gulf Wars.

Murd

--- Original Message ---

From: "Jerry Harder" <geraldgoodwine at YAHOO.COM>
Sent: December 24, 2013 12:15 AM
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] canine activities

I think you missed about three fourths of what I said.  I never said it wasn't interesting I said "There are so many much more interesting and useful types of dogs, and things for them to do than coursing for the amount of expense and equipment involved" and I never said the type of dogs used in coursing were not period. I said "I have not seen any documentation that shows coursing is period other that it is supposed to approximate the activity of hunting with sight hounds."  Sorry but chasing a bag on a cable isn't hunting"  So rather than being offended by something I did not say, how about producing some real documentation for it.  That being said, I still support it as a possible k-9 activity but lets talk about how to make it more period. How do other kingdoms do it? Etc.

On 12/23/2013 6:23 PM, Daniel Brizendine wrote:
As someone that has Coursing dogs I take exception that my dogs and their activity is not “interesting and useful”.  The activity that coursing dog have done for over 6,000 years would be to feed their human companions.  In the middle ages you can not hardly find a picture of dogs that does not include coursing dogs.  The pictures and paintings include usually greyhound type dogs (English Spanish, Polish and Hungarian) along with their next of kin the Italian greyhound (documentable to 500 bce and Whippets (less documentation but somewhere in the 13-15^th century.
 
I think that if there is a Canine Guild that guild should be more inclusive than less.  There should be coursing along with drafting, agility and such.  I also own English Bulldogs that we know are documentable to at least 1620’s as they are in the first English Book of Canines but were already developed so most historians that deal with canines in the middle ages would include any of the dogs in that book in at least the 16^th century if not the 15^th.  My bulldogs love to play at coursing but nearly any dog will do that.  But they can do agility and some of the bullies have done weight pulling.  Many of the modern activities I am sure we can associate to medieval participation.  There is also herding which is a quite documentable trait.
 
Lord Zsigmond

From: Historical Recreation in the Kingdom of Calontir [mailto:CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu] On Behalf Of Jerry Harder 
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2013 4:56 PM 
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu 
Subject: [CALONTIR] canine activities
 
A few years ago? Are you only referring to coursing? I have had little interest in coursing (my dogs aren't the right type.) There are so many much more interesting and useful types of dogs, and things for them to do than coursing for the amount of expense and equipment involved. Also I have not seen any documentation that shows coursing is period other that it is supposed to approximate the activity of hunting with sight hounds. I really don't have anything against coursing per say other than that the dog types that can be competitively successful is rather limited.
 
Every year I bring my tread-wheel powered shop to Lilies. This is an activity I do have documentation for dogs doing in medieval times. (Big dogs for pumping water, and little dogs for turning cooking spits.) I also have a cart which takes a lot of space and haven't been bringing the last few years, but all my dogs are trained to pull a cart or wagon. There is documentation for dogs as draft and pack animals as well. I have participated in mundane weight pull competitions and the late Argent and my current old boy Samson both have Weight Pull 3 titles. That's the highest you can get without touring the whole country’s rodeo circuit for that activity.  If dogs were sometimes used as draft animals, then it seems there would have been some sort of competition with them (human nature??) This would be easy to do in the SCA and could be adjusted according to the dogs weight to make it a fair competition for any type and size of dog. ( I can certainly help with how to make harness and train dogs for that) There would need to be enough interest, trained dogs, and appropriate harness to make it worth while- that is to say have a competition or at least some sort of exhibition. I have trained a dog for herding and that too is a period activity, but not very practical for SCA purposes. (It requires fencing, equipment, and shelter facilities not only for the dogs and the competition but also for the animals to be herded.) Agility is a blast and would be a wonderful type of activity that would mesh into the things we do in the SCA but I have never found anything that suggest it is a medieval, or approximates a medieval activity. (I will give you that I am not the best “finder” when it comes to research) So maybe you can come up with something.
 
I can document one or two of what I call “Stupid dog tricks” apparently for entertainment. ...BORING!.....But maybe that's an excuse for an agility type activity.
 
I have taught about 3 classes on using dogs for carting and dog training for which I had a total of 2 students and one of the students was about as qualified to teach the class as I was. My conclusion (about 4 years ago) was there was not much interest. Maybe times have changed. Equestrian has taken off since then and and was barely heard of at that time. I think a lot more folks have dogs than have horses...
 
To summarize, I think a “sponsored” SCA K-9 activity should be both more period and offer a wider more level playing field as far as to the types of dogs having opportunity for success compared to coursing.  Do you have any ideas.  I would be delighted to help in organizing, building equipment, and running some sort of k-9 activity. I think it would be a great thing to do at lilies, and some things, at many other events too.
 
Master Gerald Goodwine.

From: Victoria G Money <manefire42 at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] canine activities agility
Date: January 1, 2014 2:14:07 PM CST
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

maybe some of these will help

Akey JM, Ruhe AL, Akey DT, Wong AK, Connelly CF, Madeoy J, Nicholas TJ, and Neff MW. 2010. Tracking footprints of artificial selection in the dog genome. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences 107(3):1160-1165.

Boyko AR, Boyko RH, Boyko CM, Parker HG, Castelhano M, Corey L, Degenhardt J, Auton A, Hedimbi M, Kityo R et al. 2009. Complex population structure in African village dogs and its implications for inferring dog domestication history. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (Early Edition).

Bozell JR. 1988. Changes in the role of the dog in Proto-historic Pawnee culture. Plains Anthropologist 33(119):95-111.

Germonpré M, Láznicková-Galetová M, and Sablin MV. 2012. Palaeolithic dog skulls at the Gravettian Predmostí site, the Czech Republic. Journal of Archaeological Science 39(1):184-202.

Germonpré M, Sablin MV, Stevens RE, Hedges REM, Hofreiter M, Stiller M, and Despré VR. 2009. Fossil dogs and wolves from Palaeolithic sites in Belgium, the Ukraine and Russia: osteometry, ancient DNA and stable isotopes. Journal of Archaeological Science 36(2):473-490.

Larson G, Karlsson E, Perri A, Webster MT, Ho SYW, Peters J, Stahl PW, Piper PJ, Lingaas F, Fredholm M et al. 2012. New genetic, archeological, and biogeographic perspective on dog domestication. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Early edition.

Losey RJ, Bazaliiskii VI, Garvie-Lok S, Germonpré M, Leonard JA, Allen AL, Anne Katzenberg M, and Sablin MV. 2011. Canids as persons: Early Neolithic dog and wolf burials, Cis-Baikal, Siberia. Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 30(2):174-189.

Morey DF. 2006. Burying key evidence: the social bond between dogs and people. Journal of Archaeological Science 33:158-175.

Morey DF, and Wiant MD. 1992. Early holocene domestic dog burials from the North American Midwest. Current Anthropology 33(2):225-229.

Ovodov ND, Crockford SJ, Kuzmin YV, Higham TFG, Hodgins GWL, and van der Plicht J. 2011. A 33,000-Year-Old Incipient Dog from the Altai Mountains of Siberia: Evidence of the Earliest Domestication Disrupted by the Last Glacial Maximum. PLoS ONE 6(7):e22821. Open Access

Pionnier-Capitan M, Bemilli C, Bodu P, Célérier G, Ferrié J-G, Fosse P, Garcià M, and Vigne J-D. 2011. New evidence for Upper Palaeolithic small domestic dogs in South-Western Europe. Journal of Archaeological Science 38(9):2123-2140.

Pluskowski A. 2006. Where are the Wolves? Investigating the Scarcity of European Grey Wolf (Canis lupus lupus) Remains in Medieval Archaeological Contexts and its Implications. International Journal of Osteoarchaeology 16:279–295.

Snyder LM. 1991. Barking mutton: Ethnohistoric, ethnographic, archaeological, and nutritional evidence pertaining to the dog as a native American food resource on the Plains. In: Purdue JR, Klippel WE, and Styles BW, editors. Beamers, Bobwhites, and Blue-Points: Tributes to the Career of Paul W Parmalee. Springfield: Illinois State Museum Scientific Papers Vol. 23. p 359-378.

White CD, Pohl MED, Schwarcz HP, and Longstaffe FJ. 2005. Isotopic Evidence for Maya Patterns of Deer and Dog Use at Preclassic Colha. Journal of Archaeological Science 28(1):89-107.

vonHoldt BM, Pollinger JP, Lohmueller KE, Han E, Parker HG, Quignon P, Degenhardt JD, Boyko AR, Earl DA, Auton A et al. 2010. Genome-wide SNP and haplotype analyses reveal a rich history underlying dog domestication. Nature 464(7290):898-902.

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 4:26 PM, Lisa Kies ‪<lkies319 at gmail.com>‬ wrote:
Pity neither of those websites listed any sources so we could get more information.  :-(

It's the specific details that are really interesting.  Saying that people in the Middle Ages used dogs in every walk of life is like saying people in the Middle Ages ate all sorts of foods and prepared them in various ways.  

And if we're going to create/re-create canine games and activities, the more specifically we can understand exactly how dogs were used in period, the better.

Sofya

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 11:34 AM, Victoria G Money ‪<manefire42 at gmail.com>‬ wrote:
Here is just a couple of links to whet your whistle, animal history is one of my favorite things

http://www.rottweiler-facts-and-info.com/rottweiler-history.html#axzz2p4hVQKPB

http://www.donnerbergrottweilers.com/rottweiler-history.html

Nellie

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 5:17 AM, Jerry Harder ‪<geraldgoodwine at yahoo.com>‬ wrote:
On 12/30/2013 11:59 AM, Victoria G Money wrote:
In actuality Rottweilers were used by Romans to knock down horses and kill the riders back in the day, there are thousands of instances of dogs being used in every walk of life.

Nellie  

From the fb "Dogs of the SCA" group:

Gerald Goodwine
1/28/15 at 6:25am
I am running out of trick ideas. Help me make a list of Ideas. I don't care if medieval or not. Next on my list is to pull a cover off the cooler before getting a soda out. Not expecting that to take long. Maybe a day. Putting it back on???? Can I do that? That could be a Challenge and take some time. Can a dog blow out a candle? I think I am going to try to find out. Any other ideas out there?

Rachael Bhakail Of English Dogs, Dr. Johannes Caius, 1576. Page 37. Of the Dog called Dancer.
There are dogs among us.... which are taught and exercised to dance in measure to the sound a musical intrument..... To stand bolt upright, to lie flat on the ground, to turn round as a ring... some which carry apes on their shoulders in coloured jackets, to move men to laughter....

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