quivers-msg - 4/14/00

Period and SCA quivers.

NOTE: See also the files: bowstrings-msg, arrows-msg, arch-supplies-msg, bow-making-msg, arch-shoots-msg, archery-books-msg, string-mak-FAQ, leather-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: giovanni at bach.seattleu.edu (Jonathan J. Satcher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Quivers
Date: 3 Oct 1994 14:47:47 -0700
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle, WA, USA

Greetings,

When I started in the SCA I didn't want to use a modern belt quiver so, 
being the history student that I am, I spent a lot of spare time trying 
to find examples of period quivers.  Here is what I found:

In a lot of pictures depicting battles one finds the archers with arrows 
in the ground or in their belt.  For a while this is what I did at SCA 
shoots.  This makes sense since archers had their supply of arrows 
replenished during battles.  Although there is no evidence that I have 
found, it doesn't seem all that improbable that there was a runner who 
laid down arrows at an archer's feet while the archer was busy shooting.  
When the archer had to move, he stuck the arrows into his belt 
for quick transportation.

On the tapestry for the Battle of Hastings one finds archers with bag 
quivers that are connected onto belts or baldrics.  This is the only 
example I could find for the back quiver.

Someone mentioned that the quiver disks found on the Mary Rose might have 
been loaded upside down so that the points stuck up and the fletching was 
pulled though the hole.  I like this idea.  Another mentioned that 
bodkins were the same diameter as the shafts but this isn't true in all 
cases.  The points found on the Mary Rose were barbed bodkins.  Imagine a 
triangle shaped head made out of clay and you take the end points and 
pull them back towards the shaft to give the head an oval shape.  Now you 
have an idea of what the points looked like.  The shape of the points 
found on the Mary Rose would not allow one to pull them through the small 
diameter holes of the quiver disk.  As for the disks being preloaded and 
the archers being replenished a disk at a time, that sounds probable.  
One last note on this, I know some combat archers who load their quivers 
fletching first.  If we thought of it, can't someone else have thought of 
it?

Of course we have all been talking about Western European quivers and not 
Native American or Asian.  When I was researching this quiver thing last 
year a gentleman told me to look at the quiver used by the ice-man found 
in the Alps between Italy and Austria.  That quiver was connected to a 
baldric and hung at the archer's side, much like a belt quiver hangs on 
the archer's side.  Since I have determined that I need a quiver, it was 
this kind that I am using.  The reason being is that the ice-man used it, 
the Normans at Hastings used it and several pictures of Diana (the Greek 
Goddess of the Moon) show her using this type of quiver.

Giovanni Dell'Arco
Leader of the Aquaterra Corps of Archers
Baronial Chief Archer of Madrone, Kingdom of An Tir 

From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mary Rose quivers
Date: 27 Sep 1994 19:21:31 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

The National Geographic issue on the Mary Rose had a picture of one of these
disks. It did not have a picture of a quiver, and the artists impression of
an archer did not include a quiver (unless my memory is failing me again).

I suppose that you could assume the disk to be a 'quickloader' for a quiver 
and so get the points down in the quiver.

I also remember being told that archers stuck their arrows in the dirt in 
front of them when setting up defensive positions. This lead to my feeling
that a quiver was a part of a hunting outfit not a part of the standard
equipment for a military archer. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

	Regards

		Fiacha
		haslock at zso.dec.com

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrow Spacers (was: Costuming and Boots)
Date: 30 Jan 1995 18:51:39 GMT

In article <jotl-2901952044360001 at annex003.ridgecrest.ca.us>,
James of the Lake <jotl at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>Would it be possible for you to describe the arrow spacers above.  I have
>read about their use, but have never seen a pattern or set of dimensions. 
>I believe that our Baronial Archery Guild would like to try this period
>sort of "quiver" on the archery line.

  They'll be sorely disappointed, then, since the "spacer" is *not* a quiver.

  For the full(er) story, check out Robert Hardy's "The Longbow" (it's in this
  week's Barnes & Noble catalog).  The short form is that the arrows on the
  Mary Rose were stored using circles of leather with numerous little holes 
  cut in them regularly for the arrows to go through.  This kept the vanes from
  getting smooshed.  These spacers are ideal for storage, but would be very
  poor if used as 'quivers.'

  This brief over-generalization brought to you by:
 ------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
                      42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101

From: og at bga.com (Madog y Barfog Goch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrow Spacers (was: Costuming and Boots)
Date: 30 Jan 1995 19:42:44 -0600

James of the Lake <jotl at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:
>In article <950129133735.20e07725 at vax2.utulsa.edu>, IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu
>(I. Marc Carlson) wrote:
>
>
>> N.B. A few years ago, when duplicating the "arrow spacers" from the _Mary
>> Rose_, my Tandy agent (Note to Balderik: It's the boot patterns, not the
>> Company, I have trouble with) sold me a bit of leather that was machine
>> compressed and half an inch thick, and was *specifically* for soles.
>
>My Lord,
>
>Would it be possible for you to describe the arrow spacers above.  I have
>read about their use, but have never seen a pattern or set of dimensions. 
>I believe that our Baronial Archery Guild would like to try this period
>sort of "quiver" on the archery line.
>
>Your humble servant, James

If the spacer that was mentioned is what I think - then it is actually a 
disc of leather with holes punched into it that are large enough for arrows 
to fit into.  It appears that these discs fit into an ordinary quiver allowing the arrows to be kept apart enough to both protect the fletchings and make it easier to pull each arrow out of the quiver.  They can also be used to carry spare arrows without a quiver and still keep the fletchings safe.

Og
-- 
Email: og at bga.com
SCA: Lord Madog Barfog Goch (og) 

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Arrow Spacers
Date: 31 Jan 1995 15:16:58 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

This is a collection of these posts in one place.

James<From: jotl at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us (James of the Lake)>
>Would it be possible for you to describe the arrow spacers above.  I have
>read about their use, but have never seen a pattern or set of dimensions. 
>I believe that our Baronial Archery Guild would like to try this period
>sort of "quiver" on the archery line.

I would be delighted.  The Pattern I used was initially based on the
National Geographic Article, which has as clear a picture as any I've
found, along with an idea of its use.

Possibility 1.
	Take a 4"-5" diameter circle of hardedned leather, and punch 
	around 24 holes in it (each about .5" dia).  Concentric rings
	an inch or so apart was just fine.  Tie it to your belt.  Stick
	the arrows in it.  They will be held in place by the flights
	in the hole.  You draw the arrows by either pulling them back
	out (which only works for bodkin tips), or by pulling the flights
	through the holes.

Since this was a pain to walk with, since the arrows flop around every which
way, I tried an alternative.

Possibility 2.
	Take a second piece of leather with identical holes.  Separate it
	by a 12" shaft of wood down the middle.  This holds the arrows in
	place delightfully, but means you can really only use them for Bodkin
	Tips.

My wife, clever person she is, took the idea an extra step and took one of
my test circles of leather, attached it to her quiver and is using it to
keep the arrows in her quiver separated.

Personally, I found neither a satisfactory solution, nor was is particularly
comfortable to use (for me)

<From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)>
>They'll be sorely disappointed, then, since the "spacer" is *not* a quiver.

This is not proven either way.  According to Margaret Rule's _The Mary Rose_
one *was* found tied to the archer's skeleton's waist, as though it was a
quiver.

>For the full(er) story, check out Robert Hardy's "The Longbow" (it's in this
 week's Barnes & Noble catalog)....

Been there.  Seen it.  Read it.

Ld. Madog Barfog Goch/Og<From: og at bga.com (Madog y Barfog Goch)>
>If the spacer that was mentioned is what I think - then it is actually
>a disc of leather with holes punched into it that are large enough for 
>arrows to fit into.  It appears that these discs fit into an ordinary 
>quiver allowing the arrows to be kept apart enough to both protect the 
>fletchings and make it easier to pull each arrow out of the quiver.  They 
>can also be used to carry spare arrows without a quiver and still keep 
>the fletchings safe. 

While this has been the most useful version, I'm not eager to suggest a
quiver with quite that large of a diameter.

Of course, my original was an "Estimate" with regards to scale, and so might
not have been nearly so large.

Ipse mera Eruditissimus,	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
				University of Northkeep
				Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Arrow Spacers
Date: 1 Feb 1995 16:51:32 GMT

>this has not been proven, since a spacer was found tied to a skeleton's side

  Hmmm... This bit of info I didn't know.  I may have to revise my opinion
  somewhat.  However, the spacers would logically seem to work best for
  storage of arrows, not for holding them at your side, as you yourself
  seem to have noticed.  I would think adding the spacer to a quiver or a
  quiver bag might be a good solution (and if the above mentioned spacer 
  was at the mouth of a quiver bag, it would explain a great deal, since the
  cloth would not have survived.  Does your source of info say if there
  is evidence of stitching along the outside of the spacer?).
 ------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
                      42 Clifton Street, Portland ME 04101

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Arrow Spacers
Date: 2 Feb 1995 13:46:05 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)>
>>this has not been proven, since a spacer was found tied to a skeleton's side
>Hmmm... This bit of info I didn't know.  I may have to revise my opinion
 somewhat.

BTW, the exact citation is 

Rule, Margaret.  The Mary Rose, the excavation and raising of Henry VIII's
	Flagship.  London: Windward, 1982.  p. 186

>However, the spacers would logically seem to work best for
 storage of arrows, not for holding them at your side, as you yourself
 seem to have noticed...

I couldn't agree more.  Unfortunately, the evidence hints at another answer

>I would think adding the spacer to a quiver or a quiver bag might be a good 
 solution (and if the above mentioned spacer was at the mouth of a quiver bag,
 it would explain a great deal, since the cloth would not have survived. 
 Does your source of info say if there is evidence of stitching along the 
 outside of the spacer?).

I have seen nothing that suggests stitching on the spacers, or for that 
matter any other means by which they were to be attached.  The quote 
reads:
	"...The lower man was taller and fewer of his bones survives 
*in situ*.  He was associated with fragments of a leather undershirt or 
jerkin and a bundle of arrows contained in a leather spacer and attached
to a waist thong were firmly attached to the concretion around the man's
spine."

Unfortunately, this is not the only poorly written sentence in the book,
but that in no way invalidates its worth for the interested reader.

Ipse mera Eruditissimus,	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
				University of Northkeep
				Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: giovanni at news.seattleu.edu (Jonathan J. Satcher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Mary Rose Spacers
Date: 9 Feb 1995 11:04:43 -0800
Organization: Seattle University, Seattle, WA, USA

To the archers of the Known World does Giovanni Dell'Arco send his 
greetings.

I've asked Andrew Elkerton, Head of Documentation for the Mary Rose 
Trust, what he could tell me about the spacers found on the Mary Rose.  
He said the spacers held 24 arrows and stitch marks around the edge  
indicate that a fabric sleeve, which did not survive, may have been  
attached to the disc to protect the shafts.  I hope this helps.

In service to the archers of Madrone, An Tir, and the Known World,

Giovanni Dell'Arco
Baronial Chief Archer of Madrone, Kingdom of An Tir
Leader of the Aquaterra Corps of Archers
Organizer for Long Distance Target Archery for 30th Year Celebration

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 1997 13:12:19 -0700
From: Peter Dallman <Dallmanp at svg.com>
To: markh at risc.sps.mot.com
Subject: Midieval Archery

I have recently logged onto the internet.  I found the conversations
regarding archery most enlightening.  As a Master Bowyer specializing
in the longbow I have some insights into the area.

<snip of info on Master Bowyer and arrow making>
As to the quiver and leather disc.  The 24 hole leather disk is only a part
of a larger quiver.  The quiver is cone shaped with the top the size of
the disc circumference tapering to a point at the bottom 31' long.  It had
a drawstring at both end. The bottom 3' was leather with threst of the
bag heavy canvass or linen.  You draw the bottom tight and the palce
the knocks into the leather disc.  The arrows and disc were then palce
in the bag and a woven disc the size of the leather one was palced on
top and then the drawstring pulled tight.  This protected the knock ends,
kept the arrows seperated protecting the feathers and they didn't rattle
aorund when stalking.  The bag wasn't all leather because it it dried
faster than soggy leather and did't warp your arrows.  The same held
tru fro the matching cloth leather bottomed bow case.  Longbows
didn't ahve leather handles on them beacuse this would get wet, stay
wet, and damage the bow!  To draw and arrow, loosen the bottom
drawstring and pull it out by the tip.  It is a very fast draw case as it is
worn tip up at the waist.  I make these and sell them complete for 35$,
with matching bowcase 55$.  English longbows, all wood, any
poundage 110$.  Authentic arrow with hand ground period points, tied
feathers, matched---55$.   No waiting at the moment.  I carry complete
sets of everything, authentic cowhorn tipped English yew longbows to
the Mary Rose pattern.

<snip of fish glue info - see glue-msg>

Peter Dallman
(714) 557-6621

<the end>