Title: p-bottles-msg
Subject: Period beverage bottles and stoppers.
Author: Edited by Mark S. harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: bottle, beverage, stopper, wine, cork, wax, glass, period, medieval

p-bottles-msg - 9/12/01

Period beverage bottles and stoppers.

NOTE: See also the files: coopering-msg, beer-msg, wine-msg, brewing-msg, mazers-msg, N-drink-ves-msg, horn-msg, glasswork-msg, pottery-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 14:33:14 EST
From: CorwynWdwd <CorwynWdwd at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Wine

>what did they do in period, and did they even HAVE wine bottles at all in
period?

Wrong question. What you wanted to ask was did they have CORKS in period...
and the survey says: Late period in most of Europe. Through most of period I'm
given to understand tarred rags were used to stopper stoneware bottles. The
ones I've seen pictures of looked sorta like a Black Tower bottle. The corks
were introduced from Spain later.

I don't have the references at hand at the moment, but I'll look for them if
you like.

Corwyn

Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 17:44:34 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Wine

Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least.  What was not
available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling
champagne-like pressures.

Bear

Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 18:59:12 -0500
From: Caitlin Cheannlaidir <caitlin at phosphor-ink.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Wine

At 05:44 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Bear wrote:
>Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least.  What was not
>available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling
>champagne-like pressures.

Is this really an issue with bottles, or with their corks/stoppers?  My
lord and I recently took up glassblowing and I have a couple of blown-glass
wine bottles here of a sort much like what could have been blown in period.
 Mine have fairly thick walls (much thicker than a modern machine-made
glass bottle) because the temperature of the molten glass was (relatively)
low.  I'd be surprised if these couldn't handle a significant amount of
internal pressure.  Corks/stoppers that won't fly across the room are
another matter!

=Caitlin, glassworker

- --Caitlin Cheannlaidir

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:23:57 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Wine

>At 05:44 PM 1/4/98 -0600, Bear wrote:
>>Bottles have been used since Roman times at the least.  What was not
>>available, to my knowledge, were bottles capable of handling
>>champagne-like pressures.
>
>Is this really an issue with bottles, or with their corks/stoppels?  My
>lord and I recently took up glassblowing and I have a couple of blown-glass
>wine bottles here of a sort much like what could have been blown in period.
> Mine have fairly thick walls (much thicker than a modern machine-made
>glass bottle) because the temperature of the molten glass was (relatively)
>low.  I'd be surprised if these couldn't handle a significant amount of
>internal pressure.  Corks/stoppers that won't fly across the room are
>another matter!
>
>=Caitlin, glassworker
>--Caitlin Cheannlaidir

I am given to understand that part of the problem is flaws in the glass
and that unflawed glass really did not get started until about 1400 CE
(in Venice, where else?).  Of course, if you can not seal the bottle,
you can not get enough pressure to break the bottle.

You as a glassworker are probably more knowledgeable than I, and I would
certainly be interested in what knowledge you have about period
containers.

Bear

Subject: Re: ANST - Period champagne?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 06:48:09 MST
From: Lord Nikolai Piotr Danovich <nikolai at fiac.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>>>>>>>>>
>What little I've seen implies that
>the champagne-type beverages are late or
>out-of-period due to the
>bottles and stoppering required to withstand the
>pressure. Any details one way or the other?
>
>Stefan li Rous
><<<<<<<<

The problems with champagne (sparkling wines) in period were twofold.  The
necessary pressure to carbonate the wine didn't build up enough when the
bottles were stoppered with waxed cloth.  Corks were necessary for the
necessary build up of pressure to carbonate.   The second was that when the
carbonation pressure built up, the in-use bottles were too weak to
withstand the pressure.  It was not until a simple monk, named Dom Perigion
(forgive the spelling, please), came up with a recessed bottom (like we use
today) that true sparkling wine could be made.  I'm working from memory on
the good monk's invention, but I believe it was during the 18th century.

Ld Nikolai
Shire River March
Meridies

Subject: RE: ANST - Period champagne?
Date: Wed, 10 Jun 98 07:33:06 MST
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> It was not until a simple monk, named Dom Perigion
> (forgive the spelling, please), came up with a recessed bottom (like we use
> today) that true sparkling wine could be made.  I'm working from memory on
> the good monk's invention, but I believe it was during the 18th century.
>
> Ld Nikolai
> Shire River March
> Meridies

Dom Pierre Perignon, of Abbey d'Hautvilliers, is credited with the grape
blend and refining in-bottle fermentation.  The bottles used were of English
manufacture and were the strongest bottles available.  I've seen several
years (1670-1700) mentioned for the origin of champagne, but I like 1698.
By the mid-18th Century, commercial champagne production was a healthy,
growing business.

Of course, Dom Perignon's invention of champagne may be apocryphal, since,
according to some sources, his existence can not be proven.

Bear

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:36:53 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: When did they start aging wine? (was Re: SC - creations and creativity)

At 1:31 AM -0600 6/29/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>The young, small ale drunk
>by the majority of folks in period will likely lose out to the fine,
>aged wine drunk by an extemely small portion of the populace.

I was recently reading a biography of Pepys (late 17th century). The author
said that the use of corks was just coming in at the time, and associated
that change with the introduction of aged wines. Of course, wines could be
aged earlier in the cask, but the implication semed to be that it was only
with the introduction of corked bottles that long aging, concern about
vintages, etc. appeared.

Does anyone know what the facts on this are? Is the "extremely small
portion" actually zero in our period?

David/Cariadoc

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 16:42:58 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Glass bottle & Corks

According to a book I'm reading in the Middle Ages there were few glass
bottles, except for medicines. After cork as stoppers were introduced about
1650, glass wine bottles etc increased. Prior to that bottles were
generally of eathernware, metal, wood or leather.

Reading up on the history of Glass, trying to find info re mirrors !

Mel

Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 06:45:40 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Stoppers  Periods

Not cork according to several refs I've seen.

Leather, wax, waxed cloth, wood have been seen in references. Depending on
Period. Which always confuses me as SCA period has a huge range!

The bottles and jugs I think are only valid from 12th /13th C on and
debatable then, for 14-15th C I think you are well into the correct period.

I only do 5th and 13th so can be hazy in between and after, I'm afraid, but
I haven't seen anything Specific to the 13th (normaly it sayes Medieval
again confusing). An definatly nothing of that type for 5th C Anglian.

Mel

Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 08:40:08 -0400
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Glass containers

According to my books (listed below); a very crude glass, used for
every day rather than display was made in England from the 13th
century; Germany, France and the Low Countries (Li=3DE9ge and Brussels)
from the 9th century. Most of their glass was impure and therefore had
a slight green or blue tinge to it. Very similar to the cheap
hand-blown glass we get from Mexico.

Douglas History of Glass making sayes re containers 
The gradual revival of the art of glassmaking in the Frankish empire does
not appear to have greatly affected the manufacture of containers and only
small bottles, such as those used by doctors and alchemists, appear in
significant quantities throughout the Middle Ages"

 "The use of glass bottles was greatly stimulated by the extensive use of
cork as a stopper from about 1650. Until the beginning of the 17th century
nearly all bottles were made of earthernware, metal, wood or leather. Early
stoppers were made of wax or resin mixtures, but cork is mentioned in
English litrature in the early 1500s as a material for bottle stoppers."

Beer in bottles is attributed to Dr Alexander Nowell 1560-1602

Soft drinks first practical artificial mineral water 1770s, commercially
produced in Manchester 1777

Mel

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 15:30:24 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: SC - Period Corks

crigby at uswest.net writes:
>  There is a store called The Container Store and they have corks for all
>  sizes of bottles.  And bottles too for that matter.

If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and 
then waterproof them with either wax or pitch.  I have made several sizes of 
clay corks for my brewing bottles out of Sculpey clay, which works well 
(aside from the fact that it is not meant to be used with comestibles...)

Balthazar of Blackmoor

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:09:20 -0400
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli at infoengine.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Period Corks

Balthazar wrote:
>If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and
>then waterproof them with either wax or pitch.  I have made several sizes of
>clay corks for my brewing bottles out of Sculpey clay, which works well
>(aside from the fact that it is not meant to be used with comestibles...)

I seem to remember doing a bit of research on this when I was
looking into typical closures used for containers that might
have held ointments in period. One of the books I do remember
reading that may have additional information in it, secondary
reference type only, is:

Yarwood, Doreen. The British Kitchen: Housewifery Since
Roman Times. Batsford. 1981.

Someone may want to check on that publishing info, though,
because I'm going on what's scribbled on the back of a lunch
napkin in my desk drawer rather than the Library of Congress
(my connex to it is down right now).

A good book in general related to our cooking stuff here,
but only about the first half of it is useful. Tons of very
interesting information, though, both in period and out.

Jasmine
Iasmin de Cordoba

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 18:31:09 EDT
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period Corks

gwalli at infoengine.com writes:
<< >If I'm not mistaken, the greeks used to seal Amhorae with clay corks, and
 >then waterproof them with either wax or pitch. >>

My husband found references in "The Odyssey" to wine amphorae sealed with 
shaped hardened leather covers.  I don't remember the exact quote, 
unfortunately.

Brangwayna Morgan

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	p-bottles-msg	Page  of