Title: children-msg
Subject: Children in the SCA and period.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: children, activities, camping, SCA, medieval, period

children-msg – 4/29/09

Children in the SCA and period.

NOTE: See also these files: babies-msg, toddlr-tethrs-msg, teenagers-msg, child-clothes-msg, child-gam-msg, toys-msg, Toys-in-th-MA-art, child-wagons-msg, p-cook-child-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU
Date: 15 Feb 90 18:53:00 GMT

Greeting to the Rialto from Lady Marian Greenleaf:

It's great to see this subject come up, although in general the Rialto
population is largely un-childed and may not keep the topic going for
very long.

I don't have any kids yet myself but last year I was responsible for
planning and claiming a rather tightly-organized encampment which had
to accomodate 7 children ranging in age from 20 months to 8 years.
So I tried to do my homework, talking to parents and thinking of the
whole thing as a process.  The actual implementation worked amazingly
well.  I will limit the discussion more or less to physical support
arrangements because I didn't end up doing much of the diaper-changing
level of work.

This all may sound complex, but if you set it up right it's amazingly
easy to keep it going.

Anything on the ground or within reach from the ground, including at
least the bench level of every picnic table (depending on the agility
of the child involved) is to be kept strictly childproofed.  To support
this, I designed and built a portable high shelf attached to 2 4X4's.
(I borrowed a post-hole digger--the upright iron rod kind seems to work
best on the dirt at Cooper's--and it took me a couple of hours to dig the
holes, set the posts more or less straight, and attach the shelf.)
The shelf is a foot wide and about 8 feet long; it holds the propane stoves, 
all knives and other sharp implements, the detergent, all matches (further
encased in closed containers), and anything else that needs to be up
high.  Additional space comes from hooks set in the uprights, and the
tops of the 4X4's (about 5 feet above the ground).  A portable table,
set so that one end reaches under the shelf, provides more room for the
cook to set things while actually working, and provides a place to set
non-dangerous dishes and utensils, while still being too high for small
children to climb (but watch where you set chairs around it!)  The whole 
covers nicely with a standard 12X12 dining fly, and there is lots of room 
left to put in seating.  To secure the fly for storms, put everything
under the shelf area and lash the fly around the whole.

There are no tiki torches or other dangerous fuel sources of light in
camp.  Period.  Lit candles are always hung out of reach and must be
extinguished when the last person leaves camp or goes to bed.  Since
everyone knows where to find the matches (on the shelf!) this is not
really much of an inconvenience.  Electric lanterns are also good if
you are not particularly purist.

The firepit (yes, we had one) is always attended when lit.  This was
less of a problem than you might think.  Small children don't care for
really hot things in general and the heat can be felt several feet away.
Leaving live coals concealed under ashes during children's waking hours
is strictly forbidden.  People who come back to camp during the wee
hours should always check the firepit before retiring.  With 30 people
in camp this means it gets checked.

There is a children's play area.  It has a couple of dining flies set
together to provide shade; maybe a screen house.  The thin tatami mats
sold in discount stores are great for flooring.  You can put up a card
table, chairs, maybe a small picnic table under the shade, and keep
lots of kid-type supplies there.  If you fear bad weather at night,
just drop the flies and lash them around the table; you don't even have
to move much stuff, except for essentials such as diapering supplies and
favorite toys which should go wherever your kid actually is--play area,
tent, or out with an adult.  Play areas require space and you should
plan accordingly to keep it tight; a smaller sleeping tent, perhaps.
Shade is absolutely essential.  Children suffer more from heat and
dehydrate faster than adults.  If you child will nap in the open shade,
that's ideal--better than a hot tent in mid-afternoon!

The play area, in a larger encampment, is not close to the cooking fly.
You could combine them in a small encampment if you are careful about
policing the area and keep in mind your child's ability to climb.

Adults and older children camping in the area must agree to keep
dangerous items secured and out of sight, and must close up their tents
when they are not in them.  Ventilation should be discreet and not
include tempting views of every piece of armor they own spread all over
the floor.  These things can inspire an 18-month-old to master the
mysteries of zippers in record time.

Kids have a definite bedtime and naptime and the other campers know
when these are.  If there are other parents in camp, coordinate.

Babysitting duties are coordinated and shared.

At dusk, before bedtime for the mobile kids, tie a lightstick on each
child.  They love it, and it makes them easier to find and prevents
collisions when they are chasing each other in the twilight.  Why are
they chasing each other?  So they'll drop straight off to sleep, of
course! (not that you can stop them in any case.)

If you cannot be close to water, arrange ahead of time for somebody
else to carry water to you on a regular basis.  Same for ice.

For kids that are out of diapers but not old enough to go potty on
their own, try to get a spot reasonably close to whatever variety of
toilet your child will tolerate.  The alternative is to set up your own
potty chair and empty it yourself.  Personally I feel that the camping
rules, whatever they are (and I DON'T want to start that discussion
going again!) somehow need to accomodate small children in this regard.

Barriers such as wind screens and closed tents look more solid to small
children than they really are.  You can exploit this.  Any kind of
defined boundary will mean something to most kids.  This is important;
neighboring encampments will almost certainly not be childproof.  Bring
highly visible ropes and stakes.  (Mine are orange and yellow!)

If they run their legs off during the day, they will totally conk out at
night, and you can rev up the firepit and party.  If you tend to like a
little excess in that department, trade off "excess nights" with other
parents or babysitters.

Well, that's most of what I learned working with these things last
year.  I'm sure there are people out there with more detailed advice on
babies per se.  There is no substitute for cooperating with the other
people in your encampment, no matter how old the kids are.

In service to the child and parental units of the Known World,

--Lady Marian Greenleaf

From: Marion.Kee at A.NL.CS.CMU.EDU
Date: 16 Feb 90 16:31:00 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Several people have suggested that local newsletters might be interested
in reprinting my article of Feb. 15 on camping with small children.
Permission is hereby granted for SCA reprint purposes.  I didn't
copyright it.  If you reprint, I'd appreciate a credit to Lady Marian 
Greenleaf, Barony-Marche of the Debateable Lands, East Kingdom.  Thanks
for the positive responses; I'm interested in seeing how others handle
the same kinds of challenges.

--Marian

From: Orilee_J_Ireland-Delfs.wbst845 at XEROX.COM
Date: 4 May 90 20:50:55 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Greetings to the parents of kids under 5 from Lady Orianna, the mother of
an (almost) 3 year old!

I have always had this problem too.  Kids activities at SCA events are
usually geared for children age 5 or 8 and up (and yet many also miss that
gap between 12 and 15 too).  These things involve learning heraldry and
such.  Rarely do you find activities for the under 5 crowd.

We have tried to have some activities at a couple of events for the under 5
crowd.  These included: a play area separated from the major adult area by
benches so the children could play but still be close to the main activity.
The play area had age appropriate toys (in a gym we used balls that the
kids could chase), crafts (coloring pens or crayons, paper, etc.), a snack
time, story telling, and a planned nap time for anyone wishing it where the
kids would take a collective nap or quiet time out with supervision by an
adult and parents were free to enjoy the event.  Since the weather was a
little bad, we didn't do some of the outdoor activites that we had planned,
like a nature walk for the older kids and general "run around and play" for
the younger.

Our solution to having our daughter along consisted of the following:
We selected which events we took her to and which she stayed with Grandma
(luckily, her "Oma" is close and will babysit).  We made sure that if the
event was too big (Ice Dragon), not guaranteed to have space for kids to
run and play in (Ice Dragon), was a heavy work event for one of us
(Investitures and Coronet Tournaments where we would both be busy heralding
or setting up court all day, or events that we were autocratting and
required a lot of attention), or we were ready for a break, she did not go.
 
Other events are ideal to take her to.  Myrkfaelinn's annual camping event
has lots of open space for her to run in and doesn't require much effort on
our part to attend.

Our other coping strategy was a young lady who attended events with us.  If
Brigid was along, we paid Kilde's way as payment for her help with Brigid.
This was a shared activity, not a full-time babysitting arrangement.  At
camping events, we would take turns on who spent the evening in camp and
who went camp hopping.  At indoor events, Kilde would help out if, for
example, we both had business in Court and Kilde would hold Brigid.   When
Kilde went to college, we got lost!  We had truely been spoiled.

Anyway, this is too long as is.  My  suggestions would be to a) find
someone to share the burden with, even if this means paying their way to
the event.  b) plan activities that you know your kids enjoy (reading
stories to them, playing with their favorite toys, coloring if they are old
enough).  c) find other parents with kids the same age.  Pool resources and
kids.  Let the kids play together while you get acquainted and swap "war"
stories.

Unfortunately, until the kids are old enough to be allowed on their own at
an event, you will probably spend a lot of time sitting on the sidelines.
Find some friends who are willing to sit with you to talk, so you at least
aren't isolated.

Best of luck!
Orianna
Thescorre, AEthelmearc, East
Rochester, NY

From: ddfr at tank.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 6 May 90 05:46:54 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

Awilda mentions a seventeenth century baby walker, and wonders how
far back they go. We have a book with a copy of a medieval miniature
showing the holy family with Jesus in a walker. I can check the date
if people are interested, but it is certainly period.

David (Cariadoc)

From: JCASE%TUFTS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Date: 7 Oct 90 05:55:00 GMT

On the journey home from tourney today, my lady and I were discussing aspects 
of children growing up in the SCA.  A subject came up which I thought might 
make an interesting discussion topic, to wit:  Are children who are growing 
up in the SCA more likely to be more trusting of strangers than other children. 
We had noted the youngster (6-12 years) who had played so hard around the lords
and ladies, and whom the children had no qualms about relating to, and we had 
noted that the daughter of the Baron and Baroness Carolingia had been basically 
passed from person to person among whomever wished to hold he, and at five
months seemed to have absolutely no fear of strangers.

What do other fishers at the Rialto think, especially those who have raised or
are raising SCA children think?

Taran
****************************************************************************
Lord Taran of Windy Hill                                      John H. Case
Barony of Carolingia                                       87 Moreland St.
Kingdom of the East                             Somerville, MA  02145-1441
                              JCASE at tufts.bitnet
****************************************************************************

From: jtn at nutter.cs.vt.edu (Terry Nutter)
Date: 4 Sep 91 18:05:22 GMT
Organization: Virginia Tech Computer Science, Blacksburg, VA

Greetings to all from Angharad.  These two threads have persisted long enough
that it seemed a couple of observations might be worth putting in.

A couple of my acquaintance with a five year old son attended Atlantian Tenth 
Year, a four day event.  They had all the usual problems of not wanting to be 
tied to their son every moment of that time, with an additional awareness that 
anyhow, he probably didn't want to be tied to them the whole time either, but 
he did need supervision.  Since Tenth Year was longer than most events, the 
normal problems were aggravated.  They came up with a solution that I found 
creative and that seemed to work well for all concerned.

They didn't foster out their son.  They fostered IN another, much older child.
She lives in the kingdom, they know her well, she knows their son well, the
kids get along, and the parents get along.  The older child was hired to spend
a lot of time at the event with the younger child.

Everyone seemed to have a good time.

For it to work, your child has to be old enough, you have to know the right 
older child, and the child has to be available.  But the children of kingdoms 
do tend to get to know one another, parents of children who know each other 
tend to become acquainted, and a young teenager can enjoy the responsibility, 
the pay, and the younger child.  When it can be done, it seems to offer all
the best features of positive sum games: everyone in sight wins.

Nothing like a complete solution, but worth looking at....  Many of the solutions suggested are like that: small and personal, and they only work in some cases, but if you can collect enough of them, you may start getting some reasonable coverage. I tend to have more faith in the simple and personal solutions than in the large scale organizational ones, both because they feel far more authentic and because I think they're more likely to work.

In the same spirit, I tend to shy away from the idea of organizing something like Peasant's Point to feed those who could use it, for several reasons.  First, hospitality was one of the prime virtues of the age we are trying to recreate.  If there is an official Peasant's Point, there will tend to be an associated tacit assumption that that is the place to go if you're hungry and broke.  This silently but, I fear, effectively undermines the tendency for each group to offer many small charities: the automatic offers of something to drink and perhaps to snack on for visitors, or for passing heralds, and the like.  Second, it is a great deal easier for thousands of people to (voluntarily, individually) divide the financial burden through individual hospitality than it is to raise the money to do it all in one place.  Third, individual hospitality requires no separate staffing or labor, as an official Peasant's Point would.

There are groups that effectively run Peasant's Points throughout the site,
feeding everyone who comes by.  I would hate to see that go away; indeed, one
of my great regrets this War was that because of chaos in the months leading
up, my lord and I could not do so ourselves, but must to a far greater extent
receive, this year, than give.  Being gracious and hospitable is not only
authentic and virtuous and all that, it is also fun, and leaves you feeling
good.

Surely we want no one to go through War -- or, I hope, any event -- hungry
and thirsty and uncomfortable.  Is it really easier to prevent this, from
anyone's point of view, by raising money and a staff and doing something
official?  Do we need it?  Those of you out there who were at War and could
have used hospitality: did you find it in short supply?  Would you have headed
for an official Peasant's Point had there been one?  (These aren't rhetorical
questions; I am interested to know whether this is a problem in need of a
solution, or a problem already to a large extent informally solved.)

Angharad ver' Rhuawn            Terry Nutter
Barony of Black Diamond         Blacksburg, VA
Kingdom of Atlantia             jtn at vtopus.cs.vt.edu

From: haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Date: 3 Sep 91 16:38:10 GMT
Organization: DECwest, Digital Equipment Corp., Bellevue WA

z1dan at exnet.iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory):

>       In short, parents, if you do not observe your children at all
> times it is reasonable to conclude that others will help to keep them
> out of trouble.  Please respect their methods of parenting, and do not
> think they are any less a gentle because their methods and yours differ.

I agree, provided that your concept of parenting does not require that the
parent be in constant attendance on the child.

> My main contention with
> children is their noise level, but a simple request for them to please
> keep it down a bit usually suffices.

As I suggested, treating children as reasonable people works at least as
often as asking adults to be quieter or be elsewhere.

>       Interesting idea: how many on here like to listen to the bards?
> How many children like to listen to the bards?  Would it not make sense
> to compile a book or two of bardic stories, fairy tales of you will, and
> let a few aspiring bards practice their craft to the enjoyment of the
> children at the event?  The bard will naturally be empowered to send the
> children packing if they disrupt the story for others, but it would
> provide a welcome, and period, distraction for the kids.

My reluctance to suggest this stems from my feeling that adults would be
almost as interested in hearing the tales as the children. Things like
1001 Arabian nights and the adventures of Arthur Pendragon, Robin Hood or
Finn MacCool (Fionn MacCumhail) should have almost universal appeal. The 
difficulty lies in finding a bard who is willing to spend his day, and
his voice, in the manner; and in the autocrat finding a place for this
activity to take place.

>                       Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir
        Fiacha
        Aquaterra, AnTir

From: DICKSNR at qucdn.queensu.ca ("Ross M. Dickson")
Date: 3 Sep 91 17:38:00 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from Sarra Graeham, courtesy of Lord Angus:

Sister Kate, speculating about how best to do childcare at events, writes:
>    Since this is
> to everyone's benefit, shall we charge a small fee at Troll and put it
> toward child care, paying professionals to see to the smaller children?

Please don't make this suggestion too seriously.  Modern professionals
will care for children in modern ways, and this is equivalent to being
locked away from the rest of the event and given modern play to do.
(Colouring medieval pictures and the like is clearly modern play, even
if it has medieval trappings.)  I would imagine you would have to find
someone *awfully* special who would be willing to learn about the SCA
and the middle ages enough to incorporate child care into the event.

> Asking for volunteers to run a nursery doesn't seem to work very well, as
> has been pointed out. Shall we then draw straws among the local officers
> to see who's going to organize the child care this time? Suggestions?

In fact, at most of the Midrealm events I have been to which advertised
childcare, the children were shut away in a room with one or two female
caregivers, and they coloured, strung beads, and played with Fisher Price
toys until dinnertime, when they were returned to their parents.  (Sound
familiar?)  I find this fundamentally bothersome.

What we do at our events is find ways for children to be useful during
the day.  Even a child of four or five can help the kitchen staff carry
things from the kitchen to the hall.  (Mind you, the kitchen has to be
reasonably organized to be able to use the children's help, but fortunate-
ly this has never been a problem.)  Older children of six or seven are
put to work minding the little ones (we saved a toddler from a busy street
this way).  The older children who feel up to it make excellent servers.
Children *love* to do things where they feel honestly useful, because it
makes them feel grownup.  Our canton's only child comes up to us at our
events now and begs us for work that she can do.

The other thing that one lady in our group does is to plan things children
can do when they are liable to be running around the hall and their par-
ents busy.  Examples include just before and just after the feast, in the
dead spot after the tourney is over and the fighters are showering, during
Court, and so on.  She has read them stories, taught them to do origami
(after a half hour, the children had all drifted away, but the adults were
still at it an hour later  :-), taken them outside the hall to play tag
(especially good right after dinner), had them beat on a pinata (does
anyone know if this custom is period?).  The very best games are the ones
where both children and adults can play on a more or less equal footing.

The modern solution to how to deal with children is to lock them away
from the adults and teach them how to be an adult until at age 18 they
burst forth from Zeus's head fully grown and ready to tackle the world.
(Those who have recognized this as a fantasy collect one point; in the
modern society we have invented adolescence to explain the artificial
stage where adults are given children's responsibilities; it's no wonder
the adjustments often last until 30 or 35.)  The medieval solution of how
to deal with children is to integrate them into the household as soon as
they are physically able, and teach them by having them watch and do.
20th Century educators are slowly recognizing that this is the best way to
learn; surely we in the SCA can seize on this excellent solution as one of
the better parts of the middle ages we wish to recreate.

     Sarra Graeham, Canton of Greyfells    |  Heather Fraser
     Barony of the Skraeling Althing       |  Kingston, Ontario, CANADA
     Principality of Ealdormere, Midrealm  |  c/o dicksnr at qucdn.queensu.ca

From: joshua at yoko.rutgers.edu (Josh Mittleman)
Date: 3 Sep 91 19:51:12 GMT
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.

Greetings from Arval (even more than normally long-winded today for some
reason... probably too little sleep).  Sarra writes:

> In fact, at most of the Midrealm events I have been to which advertised
> childcare, the children were shut away in a room with one or two female
> caregivers, and they coloured, strung beads, and played with Fisher Price
> toys until dinnertime, when they were returned to their parents.  (Sound
> familiar?)  I find this fundamentally bothersome.

I agree with you, Sarra, but on the other hand, consider how our medieval
forebearers dealt with the same problem.  I may be victim to a common
misconception, but my impression is that medieval infants & small children
*were* segregated and supervised by a professional caregiver (to use 20th C
terms), until they learned enough to be useful members of the household.
Certainly, their notion of old enough to participate was different from
ours, and I agree that it is best to involve children in real activities at
an earlier age.  I've often observed that teenagers who have grown up with
the SCA are much more adult than their mundane peers, and I attribute that
to two things: being included in activities with adults, and therefore
learning responsibility, and seeing adults being silly, which teaches them
how to integrate and separate play and serious work.

We really have two separate questions here: How can/should the SCA deal
with childcare for infants and small children?  I think the only reasonable
answer for this is to leave it to the parents.  If a group wishes to
cooperate to provide group care, that's they're choice.  If some
enterprising individual wants to set up a babysitting contact service,
that's her choice.

How should the SCA integrate older children into normal activities?  I
think we should encourage our senior members to start thinking of
apprenticeship, squiring, etc., in this regard.  I've met many youngsters
who I would be quite pleased to apprentice, if I knew that I could count on
their help for a few hours at Pennsic.  A ten-year-old can carry and polish
armor, or deliver messages, or wait table, or any of the other things that
we do AND ENJOY.  They'll enjoy it, too, if it is scaled to their abilities
and needs.  A semi-official body might help with this, by matching up needs
and interests, by providing basic instruction in one or another field of
SCA endeavour, etc.  The Pennsic Pages' School, when it worked best, did
this.

        Arval.

From: ag1v+ at andrew.cmu.edu (Andrea B. Gansley-Ortiz)
Date: 5 Sep 91 14:25:43 GMT
Organization: Engineering Design Research Center, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Mikjal Annarbjorn writes:
 
=In article <9109031341.aa24228 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, Sarra Graeham writes:
=>          Even a child of four or five can help the kitchen staff carry
=>things from the kitchen to the hall.  (Mind you, the kitchen has to be
=>reasonably organized to be able to use the children's help, but fortunate-
=>ly this has never been a problem.)
= 
=Not to disagree totally, but the universal reaction from the head
=cooks (I hate that gawd-awful, made-up word *feast-o-crat*!!! 8-) from
=both baronies here to this suggestion would be:
 
=       WHAT?!?! ARGH!!! NO WAY!!!

Children down to the age of four have been used as servers in the
BMDL.  Firstly, none of the servers are allowed in the kitchen. There-
fore you don't have the problem of having children underfoot in what I
also consider a dangerous place for them to be.  All the food is brought
out of the kitchen and set up on server pick-up tables.  There is a head
server at the table to make sure everyone is taking the right amount of
stuff to the tables.

It takes an organized and patient head server to use their help, but
it can be done.  It won't delay the feast, and they often follow in-
structions as well as, if not better than adults.

Su segura servidora,
        Esmeralda la Sabia

From: lcline at agora.uucp (Larry Cline)
Date: 6 Sep 91 07:47:21 GMT
Organization: Open Communications Forum

In article <1728 at rust.zso.dec.com> haslock at rust.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock) writes:
>From article <1991Aug31.195155.18244 at news.iastate.edu>, by z1dan at exnet.iastate.edu (Dan Sorenson -- Seed Testing Labortory):
>
>>      In short, parents, if you do not observe your children at all
>> times it is reasonable to conclude that others will help to keep them
>> out of trouble.  Please respect their methods of parenting, and do not
>> think they are any less a gentle because their methods and yours differ.
>
>I agree, provided that your concept of parenting does not require that the
>parent be in constant attendance on the child.

I periodically take two boys with me to events; one is 8 and the other is
now 14.  At An Tir's May Crown they decided to start boffering and of course
attracted a large crowd of other children who wanted to join in.  For myself,
I wanted to watch some of the fighting so I left the elder in charge with
some specific instructions for specific circumstances.

When I returned, our neighbors had come over and were teaching technique
and chivalry.  I feel I have no problems letting my children on their own
as they are somewhat responsible as are my neighbors.

>> My main contention with
>> children is their noise level, but a simple request for them to please
>> keep it down a bit usually suffices.
>
>As I suggested, treating children as reasonable people works at least as
>often as asking adults to be quieter or be elsewhere.

Last week I took the 14 year old to An Tir's September Crown.  He kept
himself busy by volunteering for various things (he's been doing that all
year) and ended up as Royal Page.  It kept him out of our hair the whole
weekend.  The highlight of all this was that at closing court, he was
given an AoA.  Not bad for an enthusiastic 14 year old.

>>      Interesting idea: how many on here like to listen to the bards?
>> How many children like to listen to the bards?  Would it not make sense
>> to compile a book or two of bardic stories, fairy tales of you will, and
>> let a few aspiring bards practice their craft to the enjoyment of the
>> children at the event?  The bard will naturally be empowered to send the
>> children packing if they disrupt the story for others, but it would
>> provide a welcome, and period, distraction for the kids.
>
>My reluctance to suggest this stems from my feeling that adults would be
>almost as interested in hearing the tales as the children. Things like
>1001 Arabian nights and the adventures of Arthur Pendragon, Robin Hood or
>Finn MacCool (Fionn MacCumhail) should have almost universal appeal. The 
>difficulty lies in finding a bard who is willing to spend his day, and
>his voice, in the manner; and in the autocrat finding a place for this
>activity to take place.

One event I went to this year had a gentle dressed up in a bear suit and
they had bear wrestling.  At An Tir-West war (or West-An Tir war), the
winner of the childrens boffer tourney was made a member of the West Queen's
guard (maybe Captain? - I don't recall exactly).  There seem to be quite
a few people in various areas who enjoy setting up thing for children.
It might be a good idea to seek out people who have similar interests when
setting up an event.

As far as barding for children, it would have to be understood (by the bard
and any adults) that it is for children and thus may not be everything they
expect for themselves.

>>                      Erik Aarskog, Axed Root, Calontir
>
>       Fiacha
>       Aquaterra, AnTir

Garrick Mayhew
-- 
Larry Cline
lcline at agora.rain.com

From: parsons at b.ee.engr.uky.edu (Greg Parsons)
Date: 5 Sep 91 19:01:42 GMT
Organization: University of Kentucky, Lexington

Greetings Gentles of the Rialto,

On the subject of child care at SCA events, well I have too many kids *grin*,
and I don't want to put mine in a nursery-type environment.  I have noticed
that if some organized care is available, it seems to be expected that all
the children will be there.  During the too brief period I attented SCA
events, I find that I _underexposed_ my children to the group in just this
way.

I have lately come to realize that one of the things that attracted My Lord
and I to the SCA in the first place, was that we would be able to do this
_with_ the children, and we never managed to do that.  We are inclined to be
greatly concerned that our children may get in the way of other gentles, and
when it was suggested that the smalls would be better off in a separate area
or with a feast of their own etc. we included ours in this also.  Upon 
reflection, I am sorry we did.  We are always looking for ways to spend more
time with our children.  In modern society, they spend entirely too much time
away from us - in school or nursery school, or babysitting etc.  I enjoy
having the company of my little ones and want them to tag along after me :).
To compete with TV/Nintendo/this-here desk demon etc., we need even more time.
And the SCA is full to the brim of things both the children, and we adults
enjoy in common!  As it turns out, the activities I enjoy the most are also
the ones my three (10, 6, & 10 months) enjoy the most.  (Am I the only one
who never grew up? :) and further, I don't think the nursery environment
helped much at all.  It is very hard to organize, and find people to do, as
has been stated previously, and we found ourselves spending a lot of time
running to the nursery/child's table to make sure everything was going ok
anyway.  Further, most of these arrangements carry an obligation for the
parents to supervise the entire group at some point, and we found this much
more difficult to work into the event schedule than including the children at
all.  Not that we had any objection to giving an hour or two to watch the
kids as others were watching ours...but...we are invariably late to an event
(having spent the night before up way too late doing last minute stuff), then
whatever we are supposed to be organizing/obligated to help with etc. (I was
attempting to direct a play on the occasion I am thinking of) seems to have
last minute problems, get started late, last longer than it is supposed to,
etc etc. (My Lord ended up preparing himself as stand-in actor for an actor
we thought wasn't going to make it, when he was supposed to be watching the
nursery)...by then it is feast time and the nursery closes etc.  For the
next play we were preparing (never performed actually) we simply cast the older
two...they loved it and did well at the practices :).  The baby, of course,
would be a problem, but I would much rather hire a separate babysitter either
at the event or at home, or leave him with relatives, if I am not going to be
able to carry him around, than to leave him in a SCA nursery-type place.  I
could easily hire a student/SCA-folk to watch him during the play for example
and carry him with me the rest of the time (I can do almost anything with
a baby on my hip, including type, so I don't see why I can't direct a dress
rehersal that way) and I think we would all have a lot more fun. :)

As for other activities, everyone loves the bards, jugglers, games etc. so
why can't the adults and children do these things together?  Maybe the event
announcement could list activities particularly suited to children, but not
limited to children.  Then we could do them together.  I sometimes like 
to watch the fighting, so does my son.  I love stories, so does my daughter.
I love singing and shopping for interesting things I might buy, so do both
the older ones.  I get bored/tired if I have to sit still too long, so do
they.  Of course, I can deal with it without complaining as much about it if
I have too, but I don't have to sit through court if I don't want to, and
neither do they.  Of course they also are inclined to speak up if they know
a story or joke, and sing if they know a song, or even interrupt people if
they get excited, but so do I sometimes.  The only real difference I can see
is that they are more inclined to make mistakes about period things (not much
more - I'm not terribly good at it) and I don't see why that can't be taken
in the same light as any newbie.

I also enjoy more active running-type
games, and could use a break of this nature when I get too fidgety.  It
would be fun to have a few games of this nature that both adults and smalls
can play (or am I the only one who never outgrew tag and hide and go seek :))
Blind Man's Bluff is very period, and so is "Balloon" tho different than the
modern ones :), and ball games, and I had a source that listed a fascinating
sounding game where a couple was tied together in "hell" and had to try to
capture other couples to take their place (the source gave complete rules and
all).  I think both adults and children would enjoy doing some of this - if
everyone isn't too worn out from fighting so seriously :), and some care is
taken by the adults for the truly little ones.  And kids like to dance too -
who says they can't learn the steps?  Mine are better at it than I am :).
Actually, just where is it that the children can't participate?  They work well
too, and enjoy it sometimes.  While I wouldn't put them in the kitchen while
the feast is being prepared, want to bet my 10 year old couldn't do a good
job of washing the dishes afterward?  He does at home, anyway.  :)  

I believe, as well, that it is good for my children to sit through some of
the boring stuff like court, and organizational meetings.  They should learn
when it is not appropriate to speak out etc. and they have to do this in
school, so I think they can manage quite well in these situations, but if they
misbehave in any way, I will take them out - remove them from the situation.
Certainly anyone from four up can sit for reasonable periods quietly.  I 
usually carry pen, paper, tiny coloring crayons, little books for these
occasions and never had much trouble.  My children occasionally sat through
college classes with me, seems like if they can do that, they can manage
almost all of a sca event.  And I admit, I am lucky, in that if I can't deal
with them anymore my lord can take them for awhile, and vice versa.

I don't usually leave them on their own (tho the 10 year old does have a lot
more freedom in that area - he is almost an adult), but if they should
happen to be alone and in some gentle's way I sincerely hope that gentle will
speak to both them and me.  I want to know if they are misbehaving, and I 
want them to know it too.  True, they are not quiet, but then neither am I
(obvious considering the length of my posts :)) and I expect them to be able
to be quiet in the appropriate areas, or I will remove them.  (I always leave
if I have a crying baby - don't other parents?  And I don't mind leaving, I
knew I was going to have to give some things up when I had kids :))  On the
other hand, it seems to me that modern society is extremely intolerent of
the presense of children.  There are so many things/places that do not allow
them at all.  It's almost as bad as being a smoker :).  I hope the SCA is not
moving to this.  Are they really that much noisier than the adults around you?
I certainly have as much trouble with rude/over-extended/over-indulged adults
as I have ever had from children.

Well, I seem to be rambling again :) so to sum up:  IMHO, it would be better
for us to concentrate on more activities that both adults and children can do
together, and expect the smalls to participate (or at least accept their
participation) then to try to shut them away.  Further, we should _expect_
parent's to take care of their own children, and if they don't then hope that
they are the rude exception, the same as the unchivalrous lout on the fighting
field is a rude exception, not the rule.  I hope parent's who want to leave
their children for any reason can make private arrangements if at all possible,
or at least that others will understand if I prefer to include mine, instead
of leaving them in the "nursery-area".

Heather
--
parsons at b.ee.engr.uky.edu

From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 29 Sep 91 02:56:26 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

"Fosterage, an idea which has been discussed in not as much detail as
I would like to see, was deemed not practical for several reasons
(e.g., as medieval personae we are from very different time periods,
and what would you do about fostering a child from a different period
than yours?)" (Sister Kate)

In the memoirs of Usamah ibn Munqidh, c. 1200, he mentions that a
Frankish friend offered to foster his son. The cultural difference
between a civilized Muslim and a Frankish barbarian was surely at
least as great as between the random pair of SCA personae. Of course,
Usamah turned down the offer--but the fact that it was made implies
that the idea of fostering someone from a significantly different
culture was not alien to medieval european thought. So where is the
problem?

"Although a goodish number agreed that  children's events should be
available at events, including specifically storytelling (in which
children can participate)" (Sister Kate)

One problem with this is that in the SCA, as in period, storytelling
is largely an adult art form. Almost nothing in my repertoire would
interest a child under about eight. I suspect that our modern
association of storytelling with children is a result of large scale
literacy and cheap books.  Grownups can read the stories themselves,
so only small children have stories told to them.

Cariadoc

From: jprod at sagepub.COM (Journals Production Department)
Date: 29 Sep 91 00:57:06 GMT
Organization: Sage Publications, Inc., Newbury Park, CA

  Finally, the answer to...

          **WHAT TO DO ABOUT CHILDREN AT EVENTS**

  As you have probably guessed, there is no answer (sigh).

  I got a lot of mail on the subject, though. Suggestions/comments 
  included:

  --If informal talks with the parents of problem children don't work,
    the officers of the group should tell the parents their children are
    not welcome at events until the problem is corrected. The sender of
    this message pointed out that this probably won't work if the parents
    happen to BE officers or higher.

  --Older children can, with proper instruction, be left to watch younger
    ones
  --Older children should not be left to watch younger ones

  --People without children should not be looked to for help/responsibility
    with/for children
  --ditto officers of a group
  --ditto those running organized activities (specifically, "Children should
    not be dumped on the dancemaster and left.")

  --Volunteer help with children is best, but can't be depended upon

  --A special officer should be appointed to make sure children's activities
    are offered at events, and to organize those activities
  --One group that tried the above had to kill the office because no one
    would take it. The sender pointed out that the group hadn't had any
    trouble with children at events after that, so maybe the officer had
    never been necessary in the first place

  --Fosterage, an idea which has been discussed in not as much detail as
    I would like to see, was deemed not practical for several reasons (e.g.,
    as medieval personae we are from very different time periods, and what
    would you do about fostering a child from a different period than
    yours?)

  --Children can be served separately at feasts
  --Children should not be served separately at feasts

  --If you leave your child for a moment and find out that, in your absence,
    someone has disciplined him/her, you shouldn't lash out at the 
    discipliner
  --If someone leaves their child for a moment and he/she appears to require
    something you think you can provide, you should be extremely wary of
    providing it without getting the parent's consent first.

  **The concensus, if there was one, seemed to be that parents are, first
  and last, the only ones who should be expected to be responsible for
  their kids. This attitude was most prevalent among parents themselves
  and a few childless ones who said, basically, "I ain't lookin' after no
  kids!" The attitude that children are dangerous in the kitchen was only
  slightly more prevalent than the attitude that children can be very
  helpful in the kitchen. Most seemed to agree that children can be useful
  as servers, and to that opinion I will add my own voice, as I have much
  enjoyed the serious youngsters at Meridien events hauling pitchers of
  water and ice tea importantly too and fro.

  This leads to the point about which the greatest number were the most
  voluble: Activities for children. Although a goodish number agreed that
  children's events should be available at events, including specifically
  storytelling (in which children can participate), almost everyone who
  responded at all said it would be best to try to integrate children into
  all activities in some way, exclusive of fighting, of course. One poster
  said (about children at court), "Anyone from 4 up can sit for reasonable
  periods quietly," which I personally think is pushing it, but I guess this
  depends on your definition of a reasonable period. Many posters made good
  cases for including children in classes, dancing, competitions, etc.,
  pointing out that this can be done with a minimum of tailoring. No one
  (NO one) was in favor of the nursery/day care style of child care.

  Esmeralda pointed out that child care is so bound around with regulations
  in Pennsylvania that "day care" at Pennsic as such would be impossible
  (because illegal). Oh well. I still think the idea about a fence around
  the play area is a good one, and the idea of a hiring fair where child
  care is offered for the individual child or two seems workable (or would
  that fall under PA law as the kind of child care that would get us into
  legal trouble?).

  So there you have it. I personally disagree with a lot of these ideas,
  since I have seen too many cases of parents who refuse to control their
  children, but with the response I got, it looks as if Caid will be a
  rainforest before anyone wants to systematically organize child care in
  the SCA. The emphasis was definitely on the informal way of doing things.
  Heather said, "I always leave if I have a crying baby -- don't other
  parents?" Oh, dear Heather -- would that all parents were like you!

                                   Sister Kate
-- 
         Journals Production Department, Sage Publications, Inc.
            2111 West Hillcrest Drive, Newbury Park, CA 91320
              voice: (805) 499-0721    fax: (805) 499-0871
                    via Internet: jprod at sagepub.com

From: asparrow at cs.umr.edu (Angelia Sparrow)
Subject: Re: Small children at Pennsic
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1993 05:07:18 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla, Rolla, MO

What Elizabeth said!

I haven't done Pennsic, but I did Lillies with a 
6-week old last year.  

The sunburn thing is very important: esp. since
that age is too small for sunscreen.  With older kids,
use liberally and often.  Baby bonnets were a real blessing
as is a big straw hat for Mom.  Use whatever shade is available
(we imposed on Mistress Morgana for fly space for a time one
afternoon.)

The front-pack is almost indispensible.  With it on, I trekked
all over the campsite, hit late-night bardic circles and even sat
through a record length court.  It's great for shopping too since it leaves
a free hand.

If you're breast-feeding, stay hydrated!  I didn't as well as I should have.

This year, I want a leash, since she's started walking.  And I won't
be able to attend as many classes since she won't sleep as much.

Take your child's habit's into consideration.  Mine takes a long late 
afternoon nap, so I can play of an afternoon, but she'll stay up later,
so not as many bardic circles.  If your kid falls asleep when you
put her in a front-pack, by all means wear one to the masked ball.

Camping with little ones is not impossible, or even difficult.

Aethelynda
Calanais-nuadh
Calontir

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: pavao at cae.wisc.edu (Pavao Aaron)
Subject: Crunchy foods (was: Re: Small children at Pennsic)
Organization: U of Wisconsin-Madison College of Engineering
Date: 23 Mar 93 12:13:39 CST

From Chandler Greetings and Appologies for his Liberty in the Subject!

	I don't know if this has come up before, but I feel that, for children
of a more sentient age, it would be best to find a baby-sitter for parents that
want to attend Pennsic and not sit with the kid all week.  I plan on offering
my services as a babysitter (such a misnomer!) in return for the child's
services; there's nothing a child likes more than to carry something neat (a
helmet, polearm, shield, banner, even a tent or merchant box), and nothing a
grown-up likes more than to _not_ have to carry something neat.

Humbly submitted,
-> Chandler

SCA: Chandler (Shandler) Greyfeathre
MKA: Aaron Pavao
NET: pavao at cae.wisc.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu (Michael Chance)
Subject: Re: Small children at Pennsic
Organization: University of Denver, Dept. of Math & Comp. Sci.
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 93 20:09:34 GMT

My daughter, Natasha, is an old Pennsic veteran, having attended her
first Pennsic at 3 months.  She'll be 6 this May, and will be going to
her 7th consecutive Pennsic this summer (I love the confused looks I
get when people hear that!).

In addition to what Elizabeth and Aethelynda wrote, (and, yes,
leashes are a necessity once they get bipedal mobility), find some way
to mark your child with a easily recognizable badge that they won't
easily take off (I've dozens of stories about my darling daughter
happily running down the road away from camp without a stitch of
clothing on - kids are funny that way).

Also, plan on providing much of their entertainment yourself.  Practically
none of the "children's" activities at Pennsic is geared to kids under
about 7 or 8.  And the playground is often overrun by older and larger
kids, who'll probably be a bit to rough for the really young ones.

It takes a lot of planning and coordination between the parents, but
it can work.

Mikjal Annarbjorn
--
Michael A. Chance          St. Louis, Missouri, USA    "At play in the fields
Work: mc3078 at sw1sta.sbc.com                             of St. Vidicon"
Play: ab899 at freenet.hsc.colorado.edu
      mchance at nyx.cs.du.edu

From: hammond at lrc.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE:Small children at Pennsic
Date: 24 Mar 93 09:56:36 EST
Organization: Lenoir-Rhyne College, Hickory, NC

Two additional points about small children at pennsic.
(the previous posting had all good points too)

1) Sun block.  DON'T FORGET TO SUN BLOCK THE CHILDREN.
   They can sunburn quickly and don't like constant pain.

2) For babies and small children you may also want to bring some
   Pedialite (this is a brand name and I am not sure quite how it is spelled)
   This is an electrolyte solution for infants and can be very useful
   in case of dehydration or related problems with electrolyte imbalance
   from heavy sweating.  This is very roughly the equivalent of unflavored
   gatoraid.  This type of product is available in most drugstores.
   We have taken this with us to pennsic and have never needed to use it.
   I guess we still have a bottle of it around the house somewhere.

My daughter first attended pennsic at about 6 months of age, and has missed
one pennsic since then.(she is now 4 yrs old.)

Michael of Hammond
Canton of Baelfire Dunn
Kingdom of Atlantia

From: tmyers at unl.edu (tim myers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA-kids
Date: 23 Apr 1993 14:04:25 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	

David Schroeder <ds4p+ at andrew.cmu.edu> writes:

>Oh -- on a slight tangent -- are there any cute "SCA-kids say the
>darnedest-things" stories around you'd like to share?  I need to be
>properly prepared when my 8 month old starts to _talk_!

Long before he was able to talk, Arthur, son of Graf Volkmar and Countess
Isadora, recognized his father's SCA name to the point of recognizing it
when the heralds called his father to the field for a bout, whereupon he
would swivel his head around and stare intently at the field until he saw
his father. He could recognize his father in full armor to the point of
being confused after running up to a fighter who had borrowed Volkmar's
shield and then awarding him a "You're NOT daddy!" look.

Toli the Curious
--
Tim Myers                                   Toli the Curious
University of Nebraska-Lincoln              Shire of Mag Mor
Lincoln, Nebraska                           Kingdom of Calontir
tmyers at unlinfo.unl.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: Youngest Award of Arm
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 20:01:22 GMT

>Kristoff wrote:
>  I don't know about you, but having a child in the SCA (and specifically,
>  Johnathan the Younger, who has been active for his ENTIRE life) would
>  probably "greatly enrich our realm"...I would think that a King and Queen
>  (or any other parents) would feel that their child had "considerably
>  enriched their realm."

Greetings Kristoff,

If Johnathan the Younger has been active since 1978 (A.S. XII) and has been
serving the SCA along the way, I would have no problems writing letters for
an A.O.A. at this time.  I however, do have a problem believing that a 24
month old has done any service worthy of an A.O.A.  

I have nothing against children "earning" A.O.A.'s.  My own daughter, 
Mairi Eriksdottir (notice the resemblance:^)) was granted an A.O.A.
when she was 10 years old.  This was done after several letters
(none from her mother or I) had reached the Crown.  In her time she
had served as hand-maiden to 3 Queens, worked the registration tables
at several kingdom events, worked as a runner for the judges of our
Arts/Sciences Faires, worked in the kitchens of some of our kingdom
feasts and more.  Now at the age of 12 she has been asked to serve as
Minister of Children for our local shire.

I hope I am not being too proud a father in stating that I believe Mairi
has "earned" her A.O.A..

I believe my child has greatly enriched my life since birth, however,
I do not believe that to be the kind of enrichment for which an A.O.A.
should be given, just lots of huggs :^).

Where are the "great and diverse efforts"?

Erik.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Kreyling			| Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P.
kreyling at world.lds.loral.com	| Shire of Brineside Moor
Sarasota,Fl. USA  		| Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kreyling at lds.loral.com (Ed Kreyling 6966)
Subject: Re: Youngest Award Of Arm
Organization: Loral Data Systems
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 00:27:59 GMT

kohrn at sumax.seattleu.edu (David or Corinne Kohrn) writes:
>OK. I'm going to stick my head out and state that I believe giving
>a two year old an AoA is perfectly reasonable.
>
>Well a two
>year old is entitled to a family life.  Two year olds take up alot of time,
>and may very well be shortchanged by parents trying to care for a family
>and a kingdom.  No I don't think a two year old should get a peerage for
>these sacrifices made on behalf of the Kingdom, but I don't think an
>AoA is at all out of line.
>
>		-Calote
>		kohrn at sumax.seattleu.edu
>		(Mother of a two year old, and expecting in Dec.)

Oh, please!  I am the mother of a 7 year old and an 11 year old, both of whom
have been raised in the Society.  My 11 year old has an AOA, received when she
was 10.  She got it for being a lady in waiting to two queens and one of our 
more experienced reservation table workers. While we never have her manning the
table alone, our Kingdom Exchequer says she messes up the system less than many
adults.  My 7 year old h doesn't have any awards.  My husband and I are both  
Kingdom officers.  I assure you our home life has been disrupted. I expect my   children to get their awards for their activity, not ours.  Our households life
has been disrupted as well.  These are decisions that must be taken into account
before offices are taken or Crown lists fought.
Besides which, its not fair to the child.  How long will he be in doing service
before he gets another award?  An award that he earned and deserves, not an 
accident of birth.

The person who deserves the A.O.A. is not the two year old but the person
who baby-sat the two year old throughout the reign, and enabled the parents
to serve the kingdom as King and Queen.

Mistress Brigit Olesdottir, O.L.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ed Kreyling			| Master Erik of Telemark O.L.,O.P.
kreyling at world.lds.loral.com	| Shire of Brineside Moor
Sarasota,Fl. USA  		| Kingdom of Trimaris, SCA
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: legowik at cme.nist.gov (Steven Legowik)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: baby sitting services (unwanted)
Date: 10 Sep 93 19:25:45 GMT
Organization: National Institute of Standards and Technology

  At pennsic last, I was deluged by people who seemed desparate to
watch my daughter.  Now, Amber is really cute and a credit to babies
everywhere but people I had never met before would just walk up and
imply that I wanted them to watch her.  One woman propositioned me
everytime I saw her(and I sought to avoid her).  I checked with folks
from her local group and none of them even knew who she was.  Freaky,
very freaky.

  Now, my husband and I knew what we were getting into when we elected
to have kids, and we knew that we would have less time to ourselves.
Subsequently, we worked out a time sharing arrangement so that he
could go dancing and I could hang out with my friends.  We did not
find it a problem.

  We accepted the fact that other people might not want to be around
us and our child.  We also made a really valiant effort not burden our
friends and household with the baby.  Yes, parenting CAN BE a drag,
but has it become the assumption of everyone out there that parents
don't want their kids?  Do these people really believe that any caring
parent would just hand over a child to them without references or
knowledge of their background? Did anyone else have troubles like this?

  In a related matter, did anyone hear about the merchant who cussed
out the two kids on the playground for practising their recorders
before the recorder class.  She not only berated them, but threatened
them bodily harm if she ever saw them again.  I may not be a morning
person, but this IS extreme and great way to make sure that those kids
NEVER attempt the recorder again.

					Fursa Hand-Seinn

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Subject: Re: baby sitting services (unwanted)
Date: Fri, 10 Sep 1993 22:44:15 GMT
Organization: IBM T.J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!

>   At pennsic last, I was deluged by people who seemed desparate to
> watch my daughter.  Now, Amber is really cute and a credit to babies
> everywhere but people I had never met before would just walk up and
> imply that I wanted them to watch her.

Were these simply strangers off the street or were they people from your
camp or shire?  If the former, then it was indeed very odd.  If the latter,
then they may have been misguided, but they were clearly just trying to be
helpful.  The obvious response is "No, thank you, we've made our own
arrangements, but you are kind to ask."

> In a related matter, did anyone hear about the merchant who cussed out
> the two kids on the playground for practising their recorders before the
> recorder class.  She not only berated them, but threatened them bodily
> harm if she ever saw them again.

Do you realize that you have publically accused someone of a felony?  Do
you witness this event?  Are you absolutely certain that it was reported to
you accurately?  This would be a Very Bad rumor to circulate without
unquestionable substantiation.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                   mittle at watson.ibm.com

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: dani at netcom.com (Dani Zweig)
Subject: Re: thought experiment - children
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1993 04:58:16 GMT

ARCHER at utkvm1.utk.edu (T. Archer):
>...according to one of the historians in the Second 
>South Carolina Regiment of Foot (see also Goose-stepping Autheticity Nazi's) 
>"Childhood, as a period of time with no resposibility and no need to earn 
>one's keep is a 20th century invention. 

This notion was popularized by Philippe Aries, in his "Centuries of
Childhood" (1962) -- that historically children were treated as
"small adults".  That it is an oversimplification is suggested by
medieval manuscripts and illuminations which portray children at
games, children playing with dolls, etc.  According to Barbara Hanawalt 
("Childrearing Among the Lower Classes of Late Medieval England", Journal 
of Interdisciplinary History 8, 1972), young children played, and around
age eight started to be given significant chores around the home.  At
adolescence, boys started working in the fields.

I suspect any attempt to generalize over the entire middle ages
is pointless, but irresponsible childhood is not a recent invention.
(Prolonging childhood through the late teens, however, is.)

----- Dani of the Seven Wells
dani at netcom.com

From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: thought experiment - children
Date: 17 Oct 93 12:35:12 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Aethelynda (Angelia Sparrow) writes:
> As for a 2 in the fields, I beg to differ with Ellisif.
> My 18 month-old is capable of executing the simple command of "Take this
> over there."  

I would tend to believe it.  At one Ice Dragon of 100+ fighters, we had
heraldic list trees.  Originally, the children were runners, to deliver
the shields to someone who would make the changes.  However, the adults
found it boring, the kids thought it was fun, so they got the job.

Two 4 yr-olds, and a 5 yr-old; went *around* the lists, stayed out of the 
way of the baldricks [chirurgeons, marshalls, heralds], obeyed all orders
from the baldrics (the marshall would indicate the winner's shield and they
were taken to list table separate from losers), took turns carrying the milk 
crate to stand on, took the top two shields off each tree, moved each shield 
on the lower branches up one branch, put the new shields on the bottom empty 
branch, returned old shields to list table, and kept *all four* list trees 
going *without a mistake all afternoon*  Frankly, this non-parent was impressed!

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Disclaimer  : A society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.
Internet    : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bcfrench at mothra.syr.edu (Barbara C. French)
Subject: A not-so-new insurance idea
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 12:02:48 EDT

A new trend in insurance is buying life insurance for your children.
Everyone seems to be acting like this is such a new idea, but the Italians
came up with the idea in the 15th century: dowry insurance. The idea was
that you bought dowry insurance for your daughter when she was about 5 or 6 on a 10-year maturation policy, which would be paid in full if she
married at the time of policy maturity. If she died or entered a convent,
the money would revert to the insurance company and the parents'
investment would be lost.

And the insurance companies of today think they've hit onto such a new
idea . . .

...Cait

From: cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A not-so-new insurance idea
Date: 19 Oct 1993 17:57:56 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Barbara C. French <bcfrench at mothra.syr.edu> wrote:
>...The idea was
>that you bought dowry insurance for your daughter when she was about 5 or
>6 on a 10-year maturation policy, which would be paid in full if she
>married at the time of policy maturity. If she died or entered a convent,
>the money would revert to the insurance company ...

Are you sure about the "convent" part?  If you sent your daughter
to a convent, generally the convent got the dowry.

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin
Dorothy Heydt

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: bcfrench at mothra.syr.edu (Barbara C. French)
Subject: Re: A not-so-new insurance idea
Organization: Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 00:06:52 EDT

cozzlab at garnet.berkeley.edu () writes:
>Barbara C. French <bcfrench at mothra.syr.edu> wrote:
>
>>...The idea was
>>that you bought dowry insurance for your daughter when she was about 5 or
>>6 on a 10-year maturation policy, which would be paid in full if she
>>married at the time of policy maturity. If she died or entered a convent,
>>the money would revert to the insurance company ...
>
>Are you sure about the "convent" part?  If you sent your daughter
>to a convent, generally the convent got the dowry.
>
>Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin

Pretty sure . . . At least, if the convent got any, they only got part of
it. I'll double check the reference in "Renaissance Quarterly", but I'm
pretty sure that at least with some of the insurance companies, the
convent either got stiffed (no "nunnery" pun intended) or only got part of
it (since many of the young women in question may have been forced into
conventhood due to unmarriageability).

...Cait

From: diablu at dorsai.dorsai.org (Dwayne Herron)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tips Wanted
Date: 19 Nov 1993 08:25:19 -0500
Organization: The Dorsai Embassy

WILLIAM J ADAMS (wja1 at engr.uark.EDU) wrote:
: Now that we've *thoroughly* exhausted the cup issue. . . 

: Does anyone have suggections, tips, etc. on SCA camping/event
: going with children.  Most Ministry of Children programs deal 
: with the elementary school age, what have some of you done with
: younger children?

: William the Heretic

Make sure you have  *LOTS* of baby sitters.  It's much easier if you can
spread the childcare duties out.  Also lots of things for the little ones to
do  (toys, games, paper & crayons, ect.)  A child safety line (read that
leash) is also a good idea.

Peace, Love, and Chocolate Chip Cookies
Diablu

From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Children and honor
Date: 28 Mar 1994 12:06:04 -0500

Angus wrote:

 > SCA fighters......are taught maturity on the battleground, or what I like
 > to call 'honor'. The point of fighter practices is to teach younger fighters
 > about their powers and responsibilities on the field. I'll admit telling
 > this to an eight year old might not work...

Robert Fulgum has written eloquently on the topic. In short, if your child has not been taught something honor by the time he or she is eight, then there is
little chance of this ever being learned. When I see a child at an event causing trouble unchecked, I invariably find that the parents are not standing
by with their backs turned but in fact are not to be found at all. Parents who constantly check in on their children at play end up not needing to check,
while those who turn their children loose in a group for hours at a time have
the most need for vigilance. Children can be taught honor, courtesy, and responsibility: all of them are taught by example. Far from not being able to understand, children learn noble qualities faster than adults. If not gentle
at an early age, they will likely never change.

Beorthwine

From: sari at alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Sari Ellen Stiles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Songs/Dances for Children
Date: 9 May 1994 14:28:29 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

Dave.Calafrancesco at f54.n272.z1.fidonet.org (Dave Calafrancesco):

> and especially in organizing the younger children's activities. 
My daughter, Now age 7, LOVES handing out danglies at Troll and has done
this from time to time since age 5...
(put the kids to work doing SOMETHING... maybe a kids craft course?...
fancy hairbraiding course would keep a middle age range female kid busy for
a while... braiding each other's hair...)

From: sari at alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Sari Ellen Stiles)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Kids
Date: 22 Sep 1994 17:20:22 GMT
Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee

From article <CwInIw.1KJ at acsu.buffalo.edu>, by v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (TRISTAN CLAIR DE LUNE/KEN MONDSCHEIN):
> to force a kid to go to an event, but at the same time, it's the sort of
> thing you'd think kids would love (or at least, I wish I could've found
> the SCA when I was about 11 or 12).
Joleen, my small, age 7.5 (on Oct 27 the .5 is official), LOVES SCA
especially when she is busy "helping"... helping serve or troll or do
buckles on armor or... and then if there isn't much she can do to help
she'll be coloring, playing, chatting with folks...
I have a lovely photo from a few years ago at Crown tourney court, Joleen
swearing fealty!  And another time sitting on the Jaravellier Baron's lap
during a Warrior's Day court...blowing bubbles...

	What she really LIKES is the idea that Grown ups play pretend too...
and her big friends in SCA are truely loved.

	She cried and cried for a week when Lord Ihashi passed away, and we
still speak of him all the time.  She has stories about Ihashi's
interactions with her that I never witnessed... 

From: salley at niktow.canisius.edu (David Salley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA Kids
Date: 8 Oct 94 12:43:40 GMT
Organization: Canisius College, Buffalo NY. 14208

Istvann Dragosani (Brett W. McCoy) writes:
>>FROM:   Jan Wagner <Jan.Wagner at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org>
>>Perhaps some of you may have ideas to involve and allievate bordom for 
>>these young folks. Most outdoor events I've been to are centered around 
>>adults (fighting, competitions,etc) that exclude this age group. 

To get children involved in fighting, put them in charge of the list tree.
We've done this at several Ice Dragons.  "After each fight is finished, take 
the shields off the top of the tree, put the bottom shields on top, take the 
old top shields to the marshall, have him put winner on top (the names are on 
the back in case the marshall can't read heraldry) bring the old shields to 
the list minister, get the new shields from the assistant list minister and 
put them on the bottom of the tree.  Obey adults at all times and stay out of 
the list ropes (or you won't get to do it anymore!)" We've never had any 
problems and the kids have a blast and feel involved because they're doing 
'something important'.  And they can keep up with six lists running
simultaneously, something a pair of adults had trouble doing when they had 
the job.

>>Granted, some Kindgoms have been trying to involve these folks in a 
>>small scale. Perhaps as adults we should take it upon ourselves to 
>>involve these young adults-- not merely having them become pages but 
>>REALLY involve them in the SCA: teach them a new skill, how to be a 
>>merchant, showing and helping them create a piece of art work, general 
>>ettiquette, etc. 

There's a woman that several people have been pushing for a peerage,
Lady Roseanna vom Meiri, who not only does drop-dead gorgeous calligraphy
and illumination, but has a 'pages guild' of about two dozen children
who she's taught her art to.  The kids request an appearance with the
royals about twice a year or so and present them with about two dozen
scroll blanks (illuminated but not calliged).  Most of the scrolls get
used for awards and I've seen some hanging in homes with a piece of 
masking tape on the frame reading "Illumination by The Pages Guild".

> As a newly designated Chatelaine/Hospitaller for my shire, one of my 
> duties is to make sure the youngsters have something to do.  One thing 
> we try to do is teach the kids games first off, as they can be quickly 
> involved.  Game of the Goose seems to be the most popular.  

Double the popularity, make the game "life-size" and each child becomes
his/her own playing piece.  Draw the "special squares" on 8 1/2 x 11 paper
(use royal/principal/baronial citizen badge for the blanks), photocopy
as many of each as needed, lay them out along a duct tape line on the floor
so they know which square is next, make dice out of 1/2 gal milk cartons
paint and black marker, get props for the special squares (e.g. an empty
tankard for the tavern, oversize manacles for jail, a small bucket for the
well, etc.), get candy for all of the kids and play!  Everytime I set this 
up, I see parents run through an entire roll of film.

> Teaching > basic cooking skills works, 

Have them serve the results to high table during the feast.  If it's good, 
the royals will hog it for themselves, if not, the royals will 'generously'
have it passed around the hall.

> as well as showing them how to do calligraphy, 

see above.

> telling stories (and teaching them how to tell stories), 
> and various workshop type things.  We have a good proportion of kids in 
> our shire (three of them mine), and I do what I can to keep them busy, 
> especially during the weekly meetings.  Even making simple jewelry gets 
> a great response, especially things like stringing beads.  One event I 
> was at, the kids got a big kick out of painting themselves with woad.  

Teach them how to make chainmail key chains that they can merchant.

> Kids also get a kick out of dancing with the 'grownups'.

Yes.  And I love watching when an adult lady has to pass under the arm
of a child lord. ;-)

> This is one thing that has impressed me about the SCA, that families 
> are encouraged to participate together.  Kids like nothing more than 
> doing things with adults, especially when it comes to 'pretending' and 
> dressing up in outlandish clothing.

One of the things I always mention at demos.  We do not segregate by age
or gender, our members participate _as families_.

                                                       - Dagonell

SCA Persona : Lord Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake, CSC, CK, CTr
Habitat	    : East Kingdom, AEthelmearc Principality, Rhydderich Hael Barony
Internet    : salley at niktow.cs.canisius.edu
USnail-net  : David P. Salley, 136 Shepard Street, Buffalo, New York 14212-2029

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Guides for motherhood 
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 10:24:44 EST

ghoog at osf1.gmu.EDU (Genevieve M Hoog) writes:
> books on child-raising.  Does anybody out there know of any books that 
> gave instruction on rearing a child?  Does anybody out there have any 
> opinions/information regarding this?  Few though they may be, perhaps one 
> or two books are known about today...it was just an interesting topic that 
> caught my attention on an otherwise dreary day!
> 
> Yours in thanks, 
> Genevieve du Renard
> 
> mka Genevieve Hoog
> Ponte Alto, Atlantia
	Respected friend:
	One, there were such instructions, but they weren't in books. Try
going through the (now discredited) legends of Christ's childhood, or digging
up translations of the matching songs (withy-tree carol springs to mind.)
	Two, there were, and are, people who didn't/couldn't invest emotionally
in their children; and there were people who didn't/couldn't disinvest from
their dead children, and were destroyed by it. (The King of France supposedly 
got his chance to purchase the Dauphine when the then- owner cracked up over 
the accidental death of his toddler heir.)
	Three, once the printing press got around, so did books on baby-raising.
In England, "the nouris' boke" (spelling varied by edition, and there were 
lots of editions) was intended for non-mothers caring for children. (Among its'
bits of sage advice: "Swap the clouts frequent against the piss and dung.".)
	While the author of `A distant mirror' did a generally exellent job,
she was hardly infallable. I know of a case where the same Elizabethan diarist
notes calmly the death of an infant son, with the comment that he `feels but 
little as I did not know him well'... and in another section writes an 
agonizing account of the emotional devastation that followed the death of 
another child, a theoretically-less-valuable daughter.
	In other words, she over-generalized. Some folks didn't give a flying,
some gave thier lives, thier fortunes, thier immortal souls. Just like us
today.
	(By the way, my college professor said the Crist Child was shown in
very un-childlike proportion and expression to indicate his actual status as
God-pretending-to-be-human-toddler.)

                                        (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca 

From: kathy.duffy at buckys.com (Kathy Duffy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Guides for motherhood (fwd)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 03:17:00 GMT
Organization: *Bucky's BBS* (609)861-1131

Christine de Pisan wrote a book for the education of one of the french
Princes as well as many other works, a biography included.  So there
must have been things written....

From: habura at vccnw04.its.rpi.edu (Andrea Marie Habura)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Childrearing...
Date: 27 Dec 1994 13:56:17 GMT
Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY

On maternal love: Dani, the book you're thinking about is Aries' _Centuries
of Childhood_. (ISBN on request, folks; it's at home, I'm at work.) I used
it a supplementary info for a sociology course I took. And yes, many modern
researchers disagree with Aries' conclusions. (I recall his main thesis as
being that children were considered not-persons in early childhood, up to
about age seven, and then were considered miniature adults.) It's a neat
book anyway if you just read the straight-reportage parts; there's some 
interesting accounts of town-gown fights. 

What's interesting is that *our* attitudes toward children are historically
anomalous. We probably don't love our kids any more than parents from other
eras, but we're probably the first to consider children as economically
worthless in all classes. (Wealthy children were never economic producers, 
but children born into most families were considered such.) We also extend
childhood well into physical maturity, which is unusual historically. (I'll
have to get my copy of _Pricing the Priceless Child_ back from Dad; I'll
post more then, if anyone's interested.)

Alison MacDermot
*Ex Ungue Leonem*

From: fp458 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Elise A. Fleming)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Childrearing...
Date: 27 Dec 1994 14:51:03 GMT
Organization: Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio (USA)

A point was made a few posts back to the effect that _who_ was
going to read a book on childrearing?  Most women didn't read.
(Yes, it's a generalization.)  Most people lived with other rela-
tives in the same house, relatives who had already raised children.
Aren't we one of the few generations that suffer from this lack
of confidence in raising a child (or birthing them, but that's
another "hobbyhorse".)

Has anyone considered the types of books such as the "Boke of
Nurture" and others of that ilk?  These give rules for manners
such as pressing one's "snot" into the ground with one's foot so
that others will not tread on it.  There were several of these
around in the 1500s and 1600s.  _The Babees Book_ (or a 'lytle
Report' of how Young People should behave; _Hugh Rhodes's Boke of
Nurture_ (1577), _John Russell's Boke of Nurture_ are some of the
period "nurturing" books contained in _The Babees Book_ published
by Greenwood Press, NY, 1969 as a reprint of an Early English
Text Society printing in 1868.  Much of the advice deals with
mealtimes (as any modern parent knows, 'tis the _only_ place to
correct children and keep them from being crude barbarians :) 
Tongue firmly in cheek!)

"Fynd thou no fault in discreete men,
  of good perseueraunce;
But fyrst see thou correct thy selfe
  of wilfull ignoraunce."

Alys K./Elise

From: daniel_t at gate.net (Daniel Tartaglia)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 20:33:36 -0500

What can I say. When you read my .sig  file below you will understand why
I felt that I *must* reply to this thread whether I had anything new to
add or not. :) [after finishing this message, I realize I have quite a lot
to add. Maybe that is why I'm in the MoC? :)]

Many people say that the Ministry of Children is not a baby-sitting
service. I'm here to say that that is the problem. There is no
baby-sitting service at events and many concerned, involved parents need
one so they can go to meetings and volunteer at the events. Trimaris is
now offering that service through me and it will continue throughout my
tenure as deputy and later as MoC. This is not without cost however, I
expect the parents to help watch other peoples children sometime during
the event as well.

If the Autocrat is expecting an appreciable number of children, (s)he
should be willing to help coordinate the parents in their child-care
needs, or delegate this responsibility to someone else. Yes, I believe
this is the Autocrats responsibility. Let me explain:

The main reason an autocrat exists is to keep everything organized so that
as many people as posable can enjoy the event. If the children are not
organized, then they don't enjoy the event. Nether do their parents, or
many of the other participants.

The knee-jerk reaction to the above statement is, "that's the parents
job." However, we *do* expect the autocrat to organize activities for
newcommers, artisans, fighters, entertainment seekers, &c. So why not
children?

We as an organization, we realize that not everyone who volunteers to run
an event is skilled in organizing activities for children, therefore we
have the Ministry of Children. The job of the MoC is to help relive some
of the Autocrats burdon. It is still necessary to consider children in the
overall scheme of the event, to *at least* make sure that the MoC has a
place to work, entertaining/educating  the children. *Especially* the
children under about age 13.

It sounds to me that, in the event in question (which spawned this thread)
the Autocrat paid no regard to the children the (s)he knew were going to
be there, or their parents. If the event is meant to be adults only then
say so in the flyer. Don't say something as lame as "children are the
responsibility of their parents."

I guess I'll get off the soap-box now... :)
---------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Daniel T.            | Ld. Nicolas Bradwater
Clearwater, FL       | Kingdom Minister of Children, Deputy Successor
daniel_t at gate.net    | Trimaris

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: jgawron at hpbs669boi.hp.com (Joe Gawron)
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:49:28 GMT
Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company

  Dagonell write:

|> Avenel Kellough (C. Kevin Kellogg) writes:
|> > Lee Martindale (lmartin at utic) wrote:
|> > : This spring, my household will autocrat one of the biggest outdoor events
|> > : in Ansteorra, so this is a subject much under discussion at this time.
|> > : I'm reading the posts here with great interest....thank you!
|> 
|> > 	Identifying who the child belongs to at large camping events can be
|> > a problem.  Often, young children do not know thier parents names, real or
|> > SCA.  In Calafia, we require all minors at the Potrero wars to wear a
|> > non-removable wristband (the type frequently used at concerts) with an
|> > identifying number on it.  We can then find the parents name from the
|> > registration forms, which also includes the name of the group they are
|> > camped with.  This has proven invaluable on at least a couple of occasions,
|> > reuniting a frightened younster with distraught parents.
|> 
|> It would also help if the parents used a period solution.  Make the child
|> a tabard of the father's arms with the appropriate mark of cadency.  Make
|> a banner of the father's arms to hang off the tent.  If the child gets
|> separated, the finder can match tabard to banner and return the child
|> immediately without having to take him to the troll first.
|> 
|>                                                        - Dagonell
|> 
      Similarly, when our first was young enough to be secured in a playpen
at events, we would hang small versions of our banners on the playpen. We've
been around long enough that folks knew our arms well enough to know whose
child it was.  At larger events, where the group of origin is in question, 
including the arms (or actually the ensigns ) of the kingdom and local group
is useful as well.

     Brendan

From: pat at lloyd.com (Pat McGregor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: 13 Feb 1995 12:07:07 -0800
Organization: Lloyd Internetworking, Cameron Park, CA  95682

KATHLEEN GORMAN <KNGORMAN at ARTSPAS.watstar.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
>
>Maybe this is why it takes two parents to make a kid, so that ONE of the 
>parents can watch the kid while the other ONE volunteers/goes to meetings/
>fights/etc.
>
>Eyrny

;-) ;-) Except of course when both parents are peers and called into
meetings simultaneously by their Majesties... ;-)

I find the autonomous collective method-- ganging up with other parents
of similarly aged children -- works best for us. We bring toys
and activities, and more or less clear a space where the kids are
free to ramble and play and hang out. Some parent or responsible older
kid is there all the time, and we take turns. We continue to try
to teach the kids what constitutes appropriate behavior, and have had
few problems so far. 

As the kids get older they've been interested in _doing_ things:
my older daughter (14+) has been working as a server at events since she was
7 or 8, and my son has expressed interest (now that he's big enough) in
both doing page school activities and in finding someone to be a 
page to. I am still responsible for their behavior, but I find that
when they are occupied doing something -- either service or
learning -- they have a good time and their behavior is acceptable.

Surely someone must take responsibility for the kids' behaviors. The
parent / responsible party is the first line defense. After that, 
other parents who know the child can take command/hold of the situation,
and beyond that we're in a realm of trouble that I hope I never get into. 
;-)

I argued last year for responsibility on the part of parents, particularly 
where drinking and older teens are involved. I still hold that position.
 
  regards,
   siobhan
=========================================================================== 
Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke / Pat McGregor

Sharing her time between Crosston & Mountain's Gate/Golden Rivers 
pat at cygnus.com                                siobhan at lloyd.com

From: sclark at blues.epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: 10 Feb 1995 02:16:25 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!
	For parents:  I think it's important to know before you go
what your kids will be doing.  Call the autocrat and ask if there will
be kids' activities, and if so, what kind. Or make arrangements with
other parents to supervise the kids in shifts,  so that no one is
"stuck" all day.  Don't assume that friends without children sitting
in a corner embroidering or chatting are necessarily going to be willing
to watch your kids.  And finally--remember that what's a fun-filled,
day long event for you may be (eventually) tiring and boring for your
kids, especially if there don't happen to be others of the same age
around.  You may want to arrange for an hour of "time out" off site
with them just for a change of scenery--even if this is just going
across the park to the playground.

	For autocrats:  First and foremost: Delegate someone as coordinator
for childrens' activities!  Once again, emphasize that this is not
a babysitting service--but do make sure you've got something to do besides
colouring books! One event I was at recently had the kidss working on a
large paper Chinese parade-type dragon, which they later paraded around
in.  Another fun possibility is putting together a mummers' procession
or pantomime show.  Quests are always good, especially if everyone gets
some "treasure" at the end. On the negative side--do let parents know that
responsibility ultimately lies with them.  If they bring their kids to
an event with no kids' activities, this does not give the kids the right
to pester everyone else at the event!

Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: Maryanne.Bartlett at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Maryanne Bartlett)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 11:08:00 -0800

 -=> Quoting C. Kevin Kellogg to All <=-

 CKK> Identifying who the child belongs to at large camping events can be
 CKK> a problem.  Often, young children do not know thier parents names,
 CKK> real or SCA.  In Calafia, we require all minors at the Potrero wars to
 CKK> wear a non-removable wristband (the type frequently used at concerts)
 CKK> with an identifying number on it.  We can then find the parents name
 CKK> from the registration forms, which also includes the name of the group
 CKK> they are camped with.  This has proven invaluable on at least a couple
 CKK> of occasions, reuniting a frightened younster with distraught parents.

       A more period (or at least acceptable) way of identifying children
is to put your device on them. 

       We do a lot of demos in AnTir and with so many 'Danes arond during
the demos, I *don't* want my kids names anywhere that someone weird can
find 'em. (I hadn't thought of numbers!) Also, we've not had enough trouble
to do something on a group basis, so parents need to provide their own
solution. 

       I've seen a lot of tabards out there, but what I've done (and a
number of other people in this area) is to make a shield-shaped tag, about
6 inches long with my device paintd on one side and the Barony's on the
other. If people can figure out my Barony (and all the heralds can, as
well as sergeants, etc.) they can find me. If you were going
out-of-kingdom, such as to Pennsic, perhaps it might be smarter to put
your Kingdom's arms or populace badge on one side. This kind of thing is
readable by SCAdians and looks pretty good, too.

       These tags are usually worn as a necklace by the older children. I
put them on twill tape strung with stout beads. For the little ones who
might choke themselves, I sew them to an outer garment like a hood. The
kids like their "jewelry". We've only had one tag disappear in 7 years!

       My kids have disappeared on occasion but they've always been
brought back, (sometimes by an irate person, I'm sorry to say!) but htye
*can* find me!

Na shledanou,
Anja Snihova' 

From: sward02 at bigcat.missouri.EDU (Shannon R. Ward)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children at Events
Date: 22 Feb 1995 10:08:28 -0500

What other ideas do people have for entertaining, yet inforative 
activities for children?  Several people suggested bread making, singing 
(does anyone know any good period children's songs?), dancing, and tag (I 
like the Plague idea).  Some ideas I had were:
        a class on SCA manners (with a special visit from the Queen or 
                                Princess so we can practice bowing)
        boffer tourney (to include rules & safety on the list)
        blind man's bluff
        bowling
        song practice (to be performed at feast if enough children are there)
        heraldry (how to design a device, rules etc.)
        spinning, weaving & dying (going thru step to take wool from raw 
                                        to finished clothing)
What I would like to do is arrange short 1/2 hr - 1 hr classes that 
spread the work load around our group as well as catching the parents as 
they drop their children off and having them sign time slots.
               __
\             /
 \\\' ,      / /        Tatiana Dieugarde
  \\\//,   _/ //,       Shire of Standing Stones
   \_-//' /  //<,       Kingdom of Calontir
     \ ///  <//'        sward02 at bigcat.missouri.edu
      /  >>  \\\'__/_
     /,)-^>> _\' \\\
     (/   \\  //\\
          // //\\\\
        ((' (('  

From: CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Children at Events
Date: 22 Feb 1995 16:48:57 -0500

Regarding Identification at Large Events:

>> It would also help if the parents used a period solution.  Make the
>> child a tabard of the father's arms with the appropriate mark of
>> cadency.  Make a banner of the father's arms to hang off the tent.
>> If the child gets separated, the finder can match tabard to banner
>> and return the child immediately without having to take him to the
>> troll first.
> This is a good solution in a small event, but it looses effeciency as
> the size of the group grows...  Imagine trying to find a single tent
> at Pensic when all you have to go on is the tabard.  If you can find
> the general area that the parents are camping in from troll, and
> then match banners, it would work in almost all situations

Having been to Estrella last year, in preparation for Estrella this
year with my lord and his two children (ages 4 & 6), I made each a
belt and pouch.  Inside was a "laminated" card (placed inside a
plastic cover) that introduced them:  "My name is Nicolas. I am
camping with: <father's full SCA name & mundane name - next to drawing
of his shield device> and <my full SCA & mundane name - and drawing of
my shield).  Directions to my camp:  I live in the green pavilion with
the red & yellow stripes, in the Mercenary Guild of Darach camp,
behind Great Court, near the road."  Both kids absolutely loved their
cards and wanted to show them to everyone they met.  Eventually we had
to pin Nicolas's card to the inside of the pouch for fear he might
lose it playing with it.  Troll provided wrist bands for parents to
write names, households, maybe directions on them.  But I had already
prepared *before* the event for how to get the children back safely if
they inadvertantly got lost.

We also made a game on the first day of finding major landmarks they
could recognize and get back "home" from any likely location at the
war.  (Here's the "fancy" pavilion, there's the black tower, and
there's the Great Court...) The one time Nicolas (the 4-year-old)
*did* wander off without telling us, it was to return to camp, get his
armor and sword, and go back to fight the "big kids who wanted to kill
me with their sword." He actually redeemed himself by fighting with
armor (instead of with fists) and by knowing exactly where he was at
all times.

Tabards alone are not enough, in my opinion.  If you're lucky enough
to have more than one child, they can rely on the buddy system
(Elizabeth & Nicolas were to be with each other if they wanted to go
play), and the parents can take precautions to teach kids how to get
home, or how to ask for help when lost.  (Nicolas always recognizes a
white belt as someone who will help him!)

Anyone interested in more discussion via email is welcome to write me.
In your service--
--
Eilidh Swann of Strathlachlan  *   Darach Shire, CAID
Christine (Cat) McGlothlin    ***  Production Editor, Journals
Cat_McGlothlin at SAGEPUB.COM    ***  Sage Publications, Inc.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs)
Subject: Re: More on Smalls at Pennsic.(They mean
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 14:45:11 GMT

In article T3sX5c4w165w at bregeuf.stonemarche.org, una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk) writes:
> ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs) writes:
> (suggesting under-six children not attend Pennsic) (paraphrased for bandwidth)
> > Camp Grandma is a wonderful place to spend a week plus during the 
> > summer!
> > 
> > Orianna

Alizaunde -

I apologize if you read that I was suggesting children under six not
attend Pennsic.  I am very much of the opinion that children are a part
of the SCA and a part of Pennsic.  I was simply noting (I think, since
I can't remember the original post) that, for my personal case, we
elected to not bring our daughter until she turned six (it was actually
a case of the normal arrangements weren't going to work that year so
we decided to see how well Pennsic went with her there.)

I give parents a lot of credit for bringing small children (*not smalls!* 
shudder) to Pennsic.  I personally am not the type of person to
deal well with it and I recognize that in myself.

> 	Respected friend:
> 	First: I _sell_ smalls at Pennsic. (Ladies' clouts, pure linen,
> and Italian Renaissance men's undershorts, linen/cotton.)
> 	Second : What works for you is great... for you. But it isn't anything
> resembling the only way for a parent to enjoy Pennsic. My son's been to
> every war since I was seven months gone, _except_ the one that followed his
> running away from summer camp. He went to "Camp Auntie" that year, and knew 
> perfectly well that he was being punished; In fact, he later turned in to the 
> counsellors the kid he'd run with, because the boy was planning to try again 
> and Alex was (I quote) "afraid if I didn't I might never get to an Event 
> again".

Yes, my husband and I consider ourselves extremely fortunate to have two sets 
of parents willing and happy to have the girls for an extended period of time.
Even with attending Pennsic, both girls get an opportunity to spend some time
during the summer with their grandparents.  My summers at my grandparents' farm
was some of the best memories I have and I hope to give the girls the same
opportunity.

I realize that, for many, this is not an option however.  It is my desire that,
whatever the circumstances of the family, that both the parent(s) and the
children have a good time at Pennsic.

> 	Some kids can handle Pennsic fine at two, some "kids" are still a 
> danger to themselves and others at twenty. And some mothers have mothers 
> they wouldn't trust with a dog they hated. There are lots of folks out there 
> who are not parents, who are forming their opinions of "The One True 
> Path" (TM) from what they read here. Please be careful you aren't encouraging 
> them to think kids don't belong at Pennsic... 
> 

I'm sorry if that was implied in my post.  In no way do I want to 
discourage children from attending Pennsic - in fact, I've sat in on Pennsic
council meetings in the past and argued against policies that I felt
were anti-children at Pennsic.  Children are a part of life and a part
of the SCA and they have every right to be at Pennsic.  My only desire is that
those who do bring their children to Pennsic consider the environment
that the children are going to be in for an extended period of time
and take all necessary precautions to ensure that their children
have a safe, fun, and healthy War. 

>                                 (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
>                                 Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA 

From: davesg at PROBLEM_WITH_INEWS_GATEWAY_FILE (David J. Szent-Gyorgyi)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Children's space
Date: 22 Jul 1995 13:00:05 GMT

Dria Chamberlin (Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk) wrote:
[reformatted to fit my newsreader -- Arpad]

: One suggestion I have seen for keeping children occupied,
: entertained and feeling useful is to have an adult sketch out a
: "scroll" on a LARGE (3'x4'???) sheet of posterboard, then to
: allow the children to fill in the illumination.

At a recent East Kingdom Royal Progress, the children spent time
coloring in various designs, which were cut out and attached to
such a "scroll" for the King and Queen.  When the scroll was
presented to Their Majesties during Court, all the children at
the event were called into the Royal Presence.  The result
was one of the sweetest, funniest things I have seen in a Court.
Although some of the children were too young to understand what
was going on, they realized that the assembled crowd thought
very highly of the proceedings, and so they as well enjoyed the
moment.

It will be some time before I forget the look on the face of a
friend who ran up to me from some distance and asked, in a state
of considerable confusion, "*What* is my toddler doing in the
Royal Presence?"  :-)

We take pride because we adults still love to play.  How
important it is, and how much fun it can be, for us to find room
in our Game for our children to play as well!
,  ,
Arpad
---                                                                ,   ,  ,
Dave Szent-Gyorgyi                                          Kolozsvari Arpad
davesg at netaxs.com                Bhakail & Hartshorn-dale, East Kingdom, SCA
"We HAVE to teach the net                           Sable, a trident between
 to handle diacriticals!"                      two hippocampi respectant Or.

From: sandradodd at aol.com (SandraDodd)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Families in SCA
Date: 4 Oct 1995 22:55:18 -0400

<<So the moral of the story is....
If you have children, and wish to remain active in the SCA, talk and work
with your KMoC and local MoC.  They need the imput and the support to keep
and improve any program for your children.>>

I rarely put my kids in children's activities and only once did I fail to
do a stint (actually tried a couple of times but they were busy with too
many activities), and once my apprentice covered for me.   I suppose some
kids really like the activities but mine have never been interested for
more than an hour or so at a time, and children's activities coordinators
often frown on kids dropping in and out at will.  

We've either taken our kids or taken turns going to events.  A couple of
books that made a big different in my thinking were _The Continuum
Concept_ and _The Family Bed_.  With that sort of attachment parenting at
work in our mundane lives, we just tend not to put our kids in "children's
activities."    Our oldest (nine) helped with younger children's
activities at an event last Spring and received praise and attention for
his gentleness and patience with toddlers; well, he has a three-year-old
sister and therefor some experience.  

Each event and each situation is different.  I wish more parents would
help with the children's activities when appropriate, but I wish those
running children's activities would refrain from seeing "loose kids" as
truants.  Children's activities should never be required--it shouldn't be
a dump ground.  Some children prefer to be with adults.  Some prefer to
play in camp quietly.  Sometimes sites are such that they're safe to
wander into the mountains (meaning a mile-long hike up a logging road or
something, but to little kids it's a huge adventure).  I don't think
there's a single ideal or a simple solution.

AElflaed, mother of three baby Gunwaldts

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs)
Subject: Re: Families in SCA
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:34:27 GMT

PBarreto%BusAff%IUSB at vines.iusb.EDU writes:
> Being a fairly new and active mother, I was wondering how other parents who 
> wish to keep their children with them on the weekends treat their SCA life.
> 
> So far, with the help of a portable crib for naps, and observing other moms 
> with young ones, I have been doing OK.
> 
> Any advice for later on, she will only be 18 months so long.
> 
> Thank you.
> Lady Isabel Moonsdaghter
> 
Start collecting "period" toys (soft dolls, wooden characters, blocks, etc.)
that are age appropriate and keep them in a container of some kind (we have
a lidded wooden box, others use baskets with handles), plus a large blanket or 
quilt that can be on the floor and can get dirty and wash fairly easily.  Take
these to events with you.

Pack snacks (string cheese, crackers, raisins, what have you) plus juice boxes
and a small silver or pewter cup (the silver baby cups with the plastic top
for sipping out of is nice for little ones).  Evaluate the event announcement
to determine if there will be space for children to play, when the feast may or
may not be served (events - at least in the East - with a late afternoon (5ish)
court usually don't serve dinner until too late for little ones.)  If you want
to eat on board, bring food for your child so you don't have to keep her waiting.

Also bring bedding of some sort (we have a sheep skin and a blanket or cloak)
for afternoon naps.  Find an out of the way spot (sometimes under a table works
well - they won't get stepped on!) for the little one to nap.

Be prepared for a long day!  Get together with other parents if you can to trade
off watching the kids play (esp. if you have several in the same age group) or
to at least sit and chat with while the little ones play.

Try to keep as close to their schedule as possible, but be prepared for kids
who are too tired by the end of the day, and be patient.

As the children get older, try to find activities within the SCA that they
can participate in.  Find other folks - and teenagers are ideal for this -
who are interested and helpful and would like to spend some time with your
children.  You might also see if there is a young lord or lady who would be
willing to travel to events with you to help with the children in exchange for
you paying their way.  They can be very helpful in watching the children so you
can get changed or use the facilities or just take a break to have a chat with
an adult.

If you are able, go to an event every so often without your children - either
hire a trustworthy babysitter for the weekend or see if they can stay with
grandma or another relative.

Make clothes that are washable!  While little girls look adorable in dresses,
I found that - esp. at the crawling to walking stage (until about 4) - tunics
and pants were much easier for the children to play in.

Re; the Minister of Children - a topic for another post!
Orianna
mother of 2 - 4 yrs and 8 yrs who have been to events since they were
about 6 weeks old.

From: marlena at indirect.com (Marlena Mygatt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Families in SCA
Date: Sat, 7 Oct 95 16:09:13 GMT
Organization: Terra Communications

>Being a fairly new and active mother, I was wondering how other parents who 
>wish to keep their children with them on the weekends treat their SCA life.
>
Hi, 
I am the mother of three.  4 years, 15 mos. & 6 mos.

As you can see I have my hands full but I also have a great time at events
and my kids do too.

First of all I have a very wonderful husband.

Second, we have a large pavillion, big firepit, and always have a big
encampment.  This helps to have more activities happening at our household. 
We are very inviting and participate in other things at events during the
day.  But
usually have a large bardic at night that keeps us close to the pavillion
and brings lots of entertainment and fun to our encampment.  my husband
and I take turns venturing out at night.  Being very gracious and attentive
hosts is all part of it.

Having a rather large and varied activity box is essential for keeping
the kids interested and involved.  Also having enough of everything for your
children as well as their playmates too.  Crafts such as maskmaking, puppet
making, paper and glue for anything, crayons, etc.  are great projects as
well as hours of entertainment for all.

We NEVER let our children go unsupervised.  Whether we are trading with other
families or have others children at our encampment. If our children wish
to participate in the organized childrens activities we ALWAYS participate
in some way too.  This helps to eleviate the person in charge and is always
greatly appreciated if not required.

My husband and I have taken a group of children on hikes ( 1 at the head one
at the tail of the group)  This is always fun.  

It really helps that good behavior and chivalry is instilled in most children
and that they really want to have fun too.

It also helps for parents coordinate together and be helpful as much as 
possible.  Volunteering to do something simple for another is never hard
and always returned threefold in the SCA.  

Hope this helps.

Cheers!
Cylan Rhiannon

From: Chris_Hartley at bendnet.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: About to be new parents
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 19:01:01 +1600

Congratulations from out here in An Tir, also!

Two bits of practical advice that we didn't give enough consideration 
at our first event with our daughter.

1) Mobile children need a person/device to constrain them while the 
tent gets put up. While our Mongolian yurt makes an admirable babygate 
when it's up, in the construction phase, it's awkward and downright 
dangerous for children to be near. (Falling rafters, wall pieces, 
etc.)

2) Nighttime is cold. I know this sounds self explanitory, but our 
first event, we forgot how cold the tent is /outside/ of our little 
pile of sleeping robes.  If your child is still at the stage of 
getting up several times a night (And ours did at events long after 
she was done doing it at home), the interior of your tent is an icy 
place to try to feed/change your little one.  Safe efficient heating 
may be in order, combined with walling off a sleeping area within the 
interior, if your tent is large.

I'm sure we'll find many more as we travel here and there, but these 
were our first two suggestions.

Oh, and my brilliant LordHusband notes that it is best to realize 
before hand that you will /not/ be able to do everything you did 
without children, regardless of how much help you bring with. Cut out 
the things that are not /so/ important to you, right to start with, 
and arrange to trade time with other SCA parents you trust, to have 
time to do the things you really /need/ to do without little one's 
help.  Consider adopting a /trustworthy/ ward, to help with set up and 
take down, and maybe babysit one night. We've tried this in exchange 
for site fee and food for the weekend, and it worked well. (Don't be 
surprised when your ward runs off and gets married, though. We were.)

Good luck!
Jessamyn & Eleric,
proud parents of Autumn Rose

From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: babies and smalls at events
Date: 8 May 1996 04:49:15 GMT

SJB <SJBoley at switch.com> wrote:
> A house member has come up with a marvelous invention for kids.
> She constructed a small tent that has a typical canvas top but
> strong mesh sides.  ...

Along similar but somewhat more period lines, my squire Dain constructed,
for a Pennsic at which we and they had one small child each, a small
viking tent with a series of horizontal rails instead of front and back
doors. It worked as a playpen--the kids couldn't get out and the wind blew through it.

I did a fairly simple peg-together crib about the same time; I could
produce a diagram if people are interested (but not an ASCII
diagram--maybe put it on my web page).

What reasonably period toys have people had success with? Our kids like
their hobby horses, but don't play much with the cloth ball Elizabeth made them.

David/Cariadoc
-- 
ddfr at best.com

From: Purple <asamplas at indiana.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Books on Medieval kids (was Re: What is wrong with children)
Date: 21 May 1996 22:03:26 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

ianengle at freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ian Engle/Sion) wrote:
>       Barbara Hanawalt did an interesting study once.  I believe she was
> attempting to put together what growing up as a peasant in Medieval
> England was like, and she based it on coroners' reports of how children
> died, and what they were doing when they died.

Hanawalt has two books out that deal at least in part with growing up
in med. England: _The Ties That Bound_ and _Growing Up in Medieval
London_. The latter is in print in paper from Oxford U. Pr., but I
don't know if the former is still in print. Hanawalt also has a book
on crime in med. England whose title I can't remember ottomh; I
haven't seen it to know if she deals with juvenile issues at all. Both
of the above are definitely recommended.

I remember one incident from the former, about a little girl who
decided to take a nap in the road and was run over by a horse...

Artie Samplaski             Vlad the Purple
Indiana U. School of Music  Myrkfaelinn Midrealm Accts. Rep.
asamplas at indiana.edu        Shire of Mynydd Seren

From: Pat McGregor <patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: minors at events, problems encountered at 30 Year
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:52:35 -0700
Organization: Intel IT Technical Publications

Greetings from siobhan!

Colin Yemm wrote:
> 
> Luxuiel (jlv at halcyon.com) wrote:
> : Pat McGregor <patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com> wrote:
> 
> : themselves for the 10 day period.  I had considered multipart forms,
> : but was told that hospitals would only accept the original.  Sorry
> : about the hassle.

Just for a clarity note: Luxuiel (I think) wrote the thing about the
multipart forms, in response to something I had written.
 
> The paperwork can always FOLLOW the patient, depending on severity . . 
> for this reason I would recommend that in future such original forms 
> ALL minors be kept at the troll or with the medical info forms, where 
> can be quickly located, as opposed to at the bottom of the pile
> in the guardian's tent located in the back 40 (cause the guardian sure
> isn't going to leave the kid's side to go get it, and "telling someone
> where it is" can cause more consternation/attitude/repercussions than 
> pulling the forms at the central site.

Just for more information's sake, the forms were required to be on the
minor's body 24 hrs a day while on site, whether their parent's were
there or not. Several kids had them in pinnable containers (hunting or
fishing license cases can be pinned on the outside of undertunics
pretty nicely and still not show), in plastic in their shoes, or
in belt pouchs. At the beginning of _every_ Pied Piper/Page School 
activity the kids were checked for the presence of these papers.

We also made extra copies and gave one each to every person who was
authorized to consent to medical treatment in our absence. So not only
did the kid have one, so did the person who might have to say yes.

regards,
   siobhan
==============================================
PatriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com
Pat McGregor

From: taram <taram at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Medieval toys
Date: 11 Jul 1996 17:36:05 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US> wrote:
>
> Good day all,  I tried the "KS Toy history" thing and actually found 
> _Toys through the ages_ by Dan Foley, 1962, on the shelf.  It's not much 
> for illustrations but there is definitely history and references in 
> chapters 2-6, 10-11 including the one period illustration in the book, a 
> 15th C. illustration of St Dorothy and the Christ Child riding a 
> hobbyhorse.  Includes a bibliography of 3 pages of fairly small type.

Chimene
> chimenedes at aol.com (home)

Greetings to all (again)!

Yes, I read that one.  Very good.  Unfortunately, my friend still has
my refernce binder where I keep my photocopies and references.  The 
mentioned illustration triggered my memory of the book.  In fact, I 
think the book also mentions that Socrates and Plato also played with
wooden hobby-horses as children.  I'm not too sure.  So many books, so 
little time.

But readers, PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, MANY OF THE "PERIOD" TOYS WERE NOT
EXCLUSIVELY FOR CHILDREN.  Wasn't there a Sultan in the tale of Aladan
that collected rare and prized toys.  Prince and Princesses and rich
merchants children had some toys, but also lessons.  Lower class and
serf children worked most of the day and played with a stick, piece of 
driftwood, rock and their imagination.  

Look in the adult section of libraries, under the 900 section (dewy) 
for all sorts of toy histories.  Games were used to entertain adults, 
the same for such "toys" as cup-and-balls, dice, etc.  Many toys are 
still bought for and by adults.  The Prince and Princess of Aethelmarc
(sorry if I spelled that wrong) have a hobby-horse named "Horsikins".
So limiting your research about toys to the children's area, will get
you a very limited collection.  Children were sometimes only small 
adults; they listened to the same storyteller as their parents; they
watched the same fools and public executions; they played the same games.
They only thing that marked them as children often enough was their
size and they're imagination.

It's a shame that many children at SCA events aren't included.  Many are
just left to the whims of anyone who's set up "Children's Activities" in
some out-of-the-way corner, or sat down in some isolated place where they
sit with gameboy or coloring books.

If we're re-creating medieval times, why are children not included as
they were in medieval society.  References:  Marjorie Rowling's "Life 
in Medieval Times"; Joseph & Frances Gies' "Life in a Medieval Castle";
and "Life In a Medieval Village".  Even though children are sparely 
mentioned in these books, they are also seen as involved in the social
life and not "Out of sight, Out of mind" or "Children Should be Seen; 
Not Heard".

Sorry if I got on my soapbox there, but that sort of goes hand-in-hand
with my merchanting efforts.

        -- Seana Whitehawk

From: david.razler at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: camping noise
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 1996 04:35:11 GMT

"James M. Turner" <turner at blackbear.com> wrote:

>Having just returned from the Great Northeastern War, having taken an 18
>month old child, I must report some dismay at the lack of any accomodation
>for gentles who may have young children with them.  We were lucky in that
>our child will sleep through a cannon attack once asleep, but I have been
>forced to come to the conclusion that camping events are designed almost
>entirely for:
>
>1) People who want to get drunk and sing and drum until dawn.
>
>2) People who can sleep through people singing and drumming until dawn.

There is a simple solution, albeit non-period for the noise problem, including
as it affects children: pink noise.

For anyone who doesn't mind something in their ears <youngest kids out> get
the cheapest "Walkman" style radio you can find and the worst-sounding, most
comfortable (this is a matter of personal preference) earphones. Jam the thing
to AM on a blank frequency all the way down at the bottom of the spectrum <you
may have to fiddle, depending on location/weather/ionosphere> and crank up the
volume until you are satisfied. If you cannot find a dead-noise spot, find a
standard SCAdian Electronics Engineer to damage the antenna to guarantee you
nothing but a peaceful hum.

For kids, or folks who do not like things in/over ears, a simple
battery-powered fan will do, either the kind they sell as a novelty item <they
die fast> or a 12-volt computer fan connected to a pair of 6-volt lantern
batteries (which will run for more than two weeks 24 hours a day).

The problem with computer fans is that manufacturers go to great lengths to
make them quiet. This problem can be best solved by selectively filing random
notches in the fan blades until they produce the amount of noise you want.

A third alternative is to buy insanely-overpriced or make (or get the
SCAdoubleE to make you) an amplified white noise box. Or go to your nearest
RatShack, where you go to get the cheap WalkRadio and get a pair of the
cheapest battery-powered amplified speakers and plug them in place of the
headphones. Again, select the noise level most comfortable for you. If you
normally live with air conditioning or a home fan, any of these suggestions
will solve the problem while allowing the party animals to party.

>Now, let no one assume I am a prude.  I visited several of the encampments
>and enjoyed the hospitality of the hosts.  But the lack of any organized
>"quiet" area at the event, and the improbability (or perhaps, suicidal
>nature) of appealing to stone-blind drunk fighters for quiet, meant that
>people with children were placed in a difficult situation.

Unless one is in deep woods, or an area split by a hill or other natural sound
barrier, the sound of the party will carry, whatever. A large SCA gathering,
or even a small one in a tight space is a noisy affair. White noise is
probably better than party noise for kids who don't like noise. Crickets you
won't get <personally, I'll take white noise over crickets any day and cannot
understand those who love their sound. Then again, I own two parrots and love
to hear them do the doorbell, telephone, microwave and alarm clock in addition
to chanting random sayings from <unintelligible> to "Here kitty, kitty,
kitty!" (OK, the doorbell and phone can get to be a bitch 'cause at least one
of the two is damned good at it)

>Surely the society wishes to encourage members to continue participation
>once they have children.  Is the true focus of events to draw in a wide
>variety of people, or to cater to "party animals" looking for drink and
>(perhaps) a bed partner?  I appeal to future autocrats to take the needs of
>members with small children (who may the the autocrats when you are
>enjoying your golden years) into account when planning space, and to be
>willing to enforce some basic rules of civility toward one's neighbors.
>
>Yitzhak iben Yoshua
>turner at blackbear.com

Civility is good. Attempting to separate the sites of 24-hour renditions of
The Bastard King of England and medleys of ill-played bagpipe faves and places
where little people like quiet are good, but doomed to failure.

David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net

From: david.razler at postoffice.worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Goodwoman"
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 1996 03:57:38 GMT

bq676 at torfree.net (Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:
>In another thread, Brian Maloney made the assertion that he would quicker 
>use the period term "goodwoman" than "lady".
>
>As someone who does not maintain a noble persona, I would actually prefer 
>"goodwoman".  Unfortunately, I think that if Brian used it in reference 
>to me people would get the WRONG idea...:->
>
>cortesana honesta
>Ines Carmen Maria de Freitas

When one does *not* know the social status of another, why not go a notch up
as a matter of courtesy. I  always first call over a problem child as "young
master" or "young mistress" and, if they know enough to answer, they have
sufficient understanding that they are being shown *respect* and respond well
to a request that they do or do not do something causing grief or danger.

                        Aleksandr, Traveller

David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net

From: dentim at mail.myriad.net
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 1997 12:00:14 -0500
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Subject: kids at Pennsic

I truly wish you luck with children and Pennsic!  Camping musts are: a sling
for the baby, and bright identification for the older one.  Take Tylenol for
muscle cramps from carrying the baby (and the older one when she gets
tired!).  We camped with a 3.5 year old and an 18mo old...I don't  know who
was more exhausted, my Lord who fought for 5 days at Gulf War, or we
(proverbial we-I) who chased the kids!  We also found the Happy Camper
(portable playyard) immensely helpful when you had to just put them down!
We have a big problem with my youngest being anaphylactically allergic to
insect stings and bites, so we had to take extra precaution with this.

Allysyn Kranidious

From: Christa Fulton <crealtor at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hauling infants around an event
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:40:22 GMT

Joe Hayes <jhayes at compuserve.com> wrote:
>My lady just attended her first event along with our 14 month old son.  We soon realized that not having the 
>stroller was going to be a problem (ie, carrying him around, chasing after him, putting him down for naps, 
>etc).  I would appreciate feedback on how others cope with toddlers at events.
>
>Ulrich von Landstuhl

You said you need a stroller?
Get or make a wooden wagon.  I recoment big wooden wheels.  The biger the less likely to find holes. put dowles on the four corners of the wagon and make an awning that you can put up for the kid, perhaps even side flaps to 
give shade nomater the angle.  If you hand build it I emagon you could make it well for carring all the little things that goses along with kids.

Labhrainn

Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 22:46:40 -0600 (MDT)
From: John or Fraya Davis <gameroom at infowest.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Children's Program

Greetings all MOAS and Ministers of Children!

I've just finished the booklet for our children's program, The Order of the
Ward!!!  If anyone is interested in receiving a copy, send me your snail
mail address.  I hope to get a copy out to as many MOAS as I can.  The
non-so-updated version can be seen at our website:
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/5059/youth.html

In service of the children,

Gillean Fhlaithmhail
(gil-yawn lah-hool)
MOAS/Chronicler for the Incipient Shire of Ard Ruadh (St. George, Utah) of
Artemisia

From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hauling infants around an event
Date: Mon,  9 Jun 1997 15:00:26 -0400
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 9-Jun-97 Re: Hauling infants around
.. by Shannon Moyes at lamar.Colo 
> Where did you find your sources?  I would be really interesting in the 
> construction of such and item and its place in history.

There is a picture of one in the Hours of Catherine of Cleves--the
picture of the Holy Family at home.

toodles, margaret 

From: bronwynmgn at aol.com (Bronwynmgn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Hauling infants around an event
Date: 9 Jun 1997 21:12:54 GMT

Shannon Moyes <sjmoyes at lamar.ColoState.EDU> writes:
>: I don't know if she realizes it, but walkers are period (wooden ones of
>: course). I have several examples of wooden walkers from the 16th c in Germany 
>: and England. The German ones had round solid wooden balls as feet. I think 
>: they just slid around on the wood floors. But basically they were not that 
>: different from modern walkers in concept.
>
>: Julianna
>Where did you find your sources?  I would be really interesting in the 
>construction of such and item and its place in history.

_Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages_, by Frances and Joseph Gies,
has a picture on the cover taken from the Book of Hours of Catherine of
Cleves that shows the baby Jesus in an infant walker while Mary weaves and
Joseph planes a piece of wood.  This is also shown and briefly discussed
in the chapter on "The Late Medieval Peasant Family: 1350-1500".  I can't
find a date for Catherine of Cleves right now, but it should be in that
time frame.  The walker is shown as a basically cubic wooden frame,
smaller at the top than the bottom, made of round wooden rods.  It has a
wooden wheel at each corner which appears to be simply slid over the ends
of the lower horizontal rods and held in place with a pin through the rod.
 Jesus stands within it, with his left hand on the upper front rod and his
right stretched out towards Mary.
The book is copyright 1987, ISBN 0-06-091468-8.  I picked it up just
recently in paperback in the local Border's bookstore.

Bronwyn

Subject: Re: ANST - Meetings and Volume at Steppes 12th Night
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 98 12:16:31 MST
From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at onr.com>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

>Seriously, crying wasn't a problem, as far as I heard.  And
>probably my not being a parent affects my opinions strongly.
>However, I think it's the parents' responsibility to make
>sure their children do not affect others in a major way.

Actually, in a stellar idea, at Steppes 12th night, during court they had
movies for the kids in that upstairs room.  This kept them from getting
bored from the long court and gave them somewhere to go that they could
be kids. My son loved it.

Clarissa

Subject: Hyperactive kid, yo!
Date: 7 Feb 1998 06:32:47 GMT
From: arialhakon at aol.com (ArialHakon)
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

>I was wondering if there was anyone else out there with a hyperactive
>child (no, I don't just mean "busy" or "active", I mean clinically
>hyperactive).
>
>I would love to find someone else to discuss how you handle events with
>your child.  Clinton is 2 1/2 years old and a handful at the best of
>times, but we don't want to stop going to events, and we can't just ship
>him to Grandma's house for every event.
>
>Claricia Nyetgale
>Caldrithig, Skraeling Althing, EALDORMERE!

I have a boy, now almost 9, who has been in the SCA since day 1 (I threatened
the Kingdom Chiurgeon that he needed to brush up on his in-field delivery
techniques).  My son is hyperactive, although currently he does not have the
medical diagnosis (we are in the process of getting him diagnosed as such, but
so far everyone agrees).

First rule of thumb, don't be an officer or volunteer to do any activity in
which you will not be able to "run after" him at inconvienient moments (I had
to step down as Chatelaine, because even if I stopped to talk to a "newbe", he
was off and running....no gate duty either).

Second, band together with someone with children who is of like temperament.  I
have a household of 5 children, only one of which is my own.  Yes, there are
fights, and yes, the other mothers do sometimes criticize my son's
hyperactivity (and emotional sensitivity at times), but by and large, having
the extra kids around keeps him out of my hair and out of trouble (mostly).  If
you do this, however, make sure you set aside 1 hour a day for 1-on-1 with your
kid (NO DISTRACTIONS, NO EXCEPTIONS).  I take my kid on a cruise of merchant's
row (if he has been good), take a hike with him, or take him to watch the
fighters (his dad).  We do crafts together or I read him a story.  It gives him
the personal attention he craves, and shows him that he is just as important to
me as my duties in the SCA.

Third, if you can find someone reliable and who likes kids, get them to watch
your kid for an hour or two at events (even with you near by...you'd be amazed
on how wonderful it is to have an extra set of eyes keeping watch on him as you
cook or put up a tent).  We "sponsored" some reliable teenagers, some of which
are now integral parts of our household (one of which is now a nanny, and is
about to have her own kid).  We were their on-site guardians (we made sure they
were "clean" kids, and their parents mild in temperament concerning their
kids...we also met the parents), and paid their way to the event.  In exchange,
the teens helped watch the kids during the day, and took sole responsibility
for an hour or two while we cruised merchant row or did gate duty....they
played with the kid, took him to page school activities (when old enough), and
made sure he behaved himself.  They got a few hours off during the day
(sometimes in evenings) and were free whenever the kid was asleep.  It worked
out for us, but then, we had a good selection of teens to work with.

Fourth...one word...."leash".  Our Nordic ancestors were wise when they
invented "leiderhosen"....basically leather pants with built in suspenders to
which they would sometimes attach a leash and "stake the kid out" in the shade
while they worked nearby.  Some people freak at the thought of putting a kid on
a leash, but I find that it is more effective than putting a kid in a playpen
and keeps the kid safe.....BUT YOU MUST BE WITHIN SIGHT OF THE KID AT ALL TIMES
when you do this....is also great for cruising merchant row, although it is
best to get a "babysitter" for those times, so you can actually GO INTO the
tent without having to grab both hands of the kid the entire time.....(yes,
been there, done that....)

Fifth, get a "portable playpen" to use as a bed.  Even at this age, the sides
make a kind of boundary which takes a while for him to get over, so you have
time to realize the kid is up and can "corral" him.  It also makes it a little
easier to do the time-out thing.

Sixth....keep a schedule and plan some afternoon quiet time (usually during the
heat of the day).  Our household kids have a set routine...meals at definate
times, after dinner rituals (dishes, pj's, one smore, one request per child of
a story or a song at the evening campfire, priv run, and then bed...usually at
8:30).....we also have set aside an hour during the hight of the heat (usually
around 1 or 3 pm), where they must lay down and read or have a story (or two)
read to them.  All visiting kids must leave during this time.  Often the kids
play board games afterwards.......As you can tell, heat, not cold is a problem
at our events.

Seven, ALWAYS camp within sight of "kid magnets", so your kid can safely go and
play with other kids without you having to drop everything.  If there is
playground equipment, camp near that...if he likes page school, camp as close
to their location as you can.  One word of advice though....camp a ways away
from the fighting field and the archery field if you can, as well as away from
any other hazard that would require your constant supervision.

Eight, get them in the habit early of drinking water at events.  Kool-aid is
nice, but the sugar will cause them to dehydrate more easily.  If you can, buy
a beverage cooler which they can easily use and place a cup by it and encourage
them to use it whenever they can.  A banana every day might not be medieval
food, but it is the easiest way to get the potassium they need into them...we
insist our kids eat a banana every day of the event.  We also have a small
"snack" cooler, in which we keep carrot sticks, mozzerella cheese sticks, and
apple and orange slices in so they can "raid" anytime they get the munchies.
Don't allow them a lot of junk foods though, since most of them have too much
salt and sugar and can dehydrate the kid fast.

Ninth, get some toys he enjoys, but only allow him to play with it at events.
All of our kids have Nerf bows and arrows (the 3 year old has gained a rep. for
targeting peer's rumps!....I think it is the glint of the hat!).  They also
have their own boffer weapons, shields and helmets, one per kid, customized per
kid, which we only loan out under strong supervision...ours!  The youngest has
become quite his own fighter, even though he is too young for page school (we
hold our own "tournaments" in our camp for under 5, with much supervision and
explaination to the kids about honor and sportsmanship).

Tenth, get them involved.  My sister was doing dishes at age 3 (ok, she was
mostly playing in water, but it was the idea of a chore).  Let them carry stuff
for you or run messages WITH YOU to and from the list field, or help you
"waterbear" at the war field (make sure you both stay on the sidelines, and he
is in physical contact with you constantly...like standing infront of you).
Have them hand you stuff as you put up the tents, or take them down.  Have them
drag stuff in their wagon (like empty water jugs to be filled, or moving the
empty wagon between trips while setting up or taking down,or taking the
fighter's their lunch, etc.).  Have him help you serve bread at the feast, or
carry empty baskets/indestructable bowls back to the kitchen.  Spend a
half-hour (no more, until he gets older) with him on your shoulders as you
volunteer to be gate troll (this, he needs to be up and out of harm's way).

Eleventh, make sure all garments he wears are "kid-proof", and don't freak when
he comes back with mud from head to toe when you know he was wearing a brand
new white tunic.  Undertunics should be long sleeved, fairly high-up on the
neck but not much past the butt.  For pants, sweats (in cold) or pj bottoms are
best, or go with a pair of "dress" pants which are already rather worn.  I
insist on shoes due to the possibility of stepping on bees or something worse,
but my kid generally lives in sandles at the event.  His blanky made an
excellent cloak, if placed like the viking square cloak (under one arm, pinned
on the opposite shoulder, with a closed pin or even safety pin which also
attaches it to the garment underneath).  I also cut down some of my skiing
sweaters for "warm tunics" for him, and made a "mongolian coat" for warmth.

Twelfth, if you can convince him to eat it, make meals HEAVY in garlic and eat
them for 3 days before the event.  He (and you) may stink of garlic for the
event, and may sweat the smell on everything you contact, but it is the
greatest misquito repellent!  I regularly went to a restaurant I knew the cook
at, and we would have GARLIC pizza - not just the Round Table kind, but one
that had garlic worked into the crust, had garlic in the sauce, had garlic
flavored olive oil on it, and had whole cloves of garlic on top.  We sweated
garlic for days (and the diapers!  Uck!), but the misquitos left my son and I
alone!

There are a few more suggestions, but this is getting too long.  E-mail me if
you want.

Arial Haakonarstedir

Subject: Re: ANST - An idea for those with children
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 14:25:33 MST
From: "Genevieve de Courtanvaux" <gdc at airmail.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

>This message was sent to me recently. While I will be adding it to my files,
>I thought the idea good enough to post here for those who have children. I
>think it would be good for all events, not just Pennsic.
>
>Stefan li Rous
>stefan at texas.net

>Hi Stefan, this is Brion out in Aethelmearc.  I saw your post on kids' stuff.
>Here's a tip to pass on for people bringing youngsters to Pennsic:
>
>Make the child a belt with their name written on the outside and all of their
>camping information on the inside.  It's like a larger, more period looking
>version of the hospital bracelet.  It's also a good icebreaker for the child
>because people know what name to call them.

As someone who occasionally works with children at events and has one to
care for of her very own, I do not recommend that a childs name ever be
attached to them where ANY person can see their name and address them as if
they know them. Recently on this list we went through discussions about how
not everybody in the society has good intentions please understand that this
is the case just as everyone you meet at the store does not have good
intentions......bad people are everywhere. (I will go no further with this
subject) I wish that more parents would treat the society just as they do
the rest of the world and still be on gaurd against people who will harm
their children. In most cases the child already knows his/her name and who
it would be ok to be with. I dread the day that a child is lured off site
and harmed. Please take every caution that you can with your children.

Genevieve de Courtanvaux

Subject: Re: ANST - An idea for those with children
Date: Tue, 02 Jun 98 15:22:26 MST
From: jhartel <jhartel at net-link.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Genevieve de Courtanvaux wrote:
> As someone who occasionally works with children at events and has one to
> care for of her very own, I do not recommend that a childs name ever be
> attached to them where ANY person can see their name and address them as if
> they know them.

After having sent my previous post, and upon reflecting on your words I
agree.  Perhaps the solution then would be to put the parent's/groups
arms on the front of the favour and all the pertinent info on the back.
Having spent a year with pre-kinder (4-5 yr.olds) and closely helping
with kinder (5-6) I know that often times they have no idea of who they
are. If hurt or scared all they want is "Mommy or Daddy".  So you ask
them who their parent's are and all they can say is "Mommy /Daddy".  A
favour would help locate said parents/group members.

Also, how many young children at events know their parents SCA AND real
names?  This is something for parents to work on with their children as
well.

Moriel***

Subject: ANST - Involving young folk/Boffer tourneys
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 98 20:27:06 MST
From: Mararede at aol.com
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Two-three years ago I was acting MOC for Elfsea Defender. I set up a tourney
for the children, complete with milkjug helms, cardboard armour and cardboard
swords. Really tacky stuff, done on a shoestring, out of my own pocket.
___All___ the children participated, from the youngest to the oldest, 2-12,
roughly.

We had a blast! I saw honour and chivalry to rival any ever seen on the very
best 0tourney field. The kids loved it, fought over who got the left-over
armour. . . .       Nobody came to me and said it was against the rules; if
they had I would have demanded to see it in writing. Parents and other
volunteers seemed to have as good a time as the Children and I did. I also
used the children as marshals, waterbearers, list master/mistresses.
       Where is the document? I will sign it.

Mara    (Lady Mara of Rede) Carolyn Pennington
Barony of Elfsea
Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: nerak at aol.com (Nerak)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 24 Nov 2003 03:35:12 GMT
Subject: Re: SCA in the news (not good!)

>How we deal with this surfeit of little feet depends on the context.

	My Lord and I set up a small tent a distance from, but in sight of where we
sat near the list field (or whatever activity)  when the child was small, they
were tucked in the tent with toys.  Later, they would use the tent (out of wind
and sun) for naps, and even later as a 'club house' and we would find it full
of kids.
	A small pop-up tent frequently could occupy a corner of the feast hall and
sleepy kids would head that way to nap as the feast ended and dancing began.
	As soon as each child reached the age where they could sleep through the
night, they got their own pop-up and a glow stick at night.  Nothing quite like
"Go to your room" when camping.  Later they were allowed some choice of where
they camped, at first "in sight" and later as they chose as long as we knew
where they were.
	Both of our children 'danced' on Mom's hip, extending their hand since Mom's
hand on that side was busy holding them.  Our son got out of bed (age 3) and
went back to the feast hall and danced until 2am!!  
	In all truth, and this is from other adults in the Barony, our kids were
little to no trouble and usually quite fun to have around; except when one or
two particular adults would verbally provoke them to tears.  

Nerak at aol.com

From: Maggie Forest <maggie at forest.gen.nz>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA in the news (not good!)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 18:00:20 +1300

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 04:37:28 GMT, "JE Anderson" <eirika at shaw.ca> wrote:
>"Zebee Johnstone" <zebee at zip.com.au> wrote in message
>news:slrnbs270n.55c.zebee at zeus.zipworld.com.au...
>> > I'd be happy to pay $10 per event.   Perhaps even more, depending on the
>> > amount.  But I'd want the activities to be SCA involved.
>> $10 gets what?  I don't know US rates, in Oz that would get you 1 hour
>> of babysitting.  
>Thank you Silfren!  You said it all much better than I could...

I'd like to comment on this though - if we held an event, oh, say next November
Crown, and there was, say, ten sets of parents there with, oh, twelve kids
between them, and they paid NZ$15 (equivalent of US$10) per kid, that's $180.
That buys at least a whole day of qualified babysitting. If there was, in
addition, a requirement to put in one hour of time assisting the qualified
nanny, that would be a very viable proposition, both providing good care (not
too many kids to handle) and some security for parents (leaving all the kids
alone with one adult). I assume that there are similar types of nanny agencies
that specialise in this sort of thing both in Aus and the US, as there are here,
so you can get a qualified, certified child carer on site. All it takes is a
sympathetic event steward who is willing to advertise this sort of thing on the
parents' behalf, and a motivated parent to co-ordinate the hiring and payment.

/marienna

Ex Factis Honestas Agnoscitur

From: Merry <grey.house at shaw.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: New name for thread is Kids and SCA life
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 09:33:16 GMT

As you see, I have renamed the thread, as it is certainly not discussing 
the lawsuit.

    I think the basic thing that is not being addressed here is simply:
When you decided to have kids you decided to change your lifestyle. 
YOUR fun is no longer you most urgent concern.
YOUR needs do NOT come first any more.
    I am a parent, I raised 2 kids in the SCA - At NO time did I expect 
the SCA to provide me with babysitting.
For that matter, I don't expect the local Mall, the golf course, the 
univercity or any other place I attend, to provide me with free 
babysitting.
I think its amazing that the SCA is still a 'free' orginization! 
Nevermind asking for free babysitting as well!
In my time as a Seneschale I worked hard at organizing parents to look 
after kids in shifts, at one time we were lucky enough to have a hall 
which had a large side room, at feasts we brought TV, vcr,  and kids 
arrived in pj's with bed rolls.  Biggist prob was keeping the rest of 
the gang from sitting and watching the kids cartoons (SIGH) But it 
helped parents enjoy the evening and still be able to keep and eye on 
the kids.
There are many games, and other activities that can be organized for 
children,  there are all sorts of things children would like to learn to 
do. This all takes adult participation.  IF your child has decent 
manners AND the rest of the adults know you aren't going to dump the kid 
for the rest of the weekend you will find other adults more than happy 
to be involved with your childs life.  IF however, the adults in your 
group have learned thru bitter experience that you will ditch your kid 
at the drop of a hat, you will soon get no help at all.
  I have done more than my fair share of feeding other peoples kids 
because they were too drunk last night to get up this morning, or 
finding coats for kids that parents can't be bothered to dress, or 
applying sunscreen and so on and on! to be very sympathetic to folks who 
can't seem to understand that the KID is now YOUR first last and only 
real consideration for many many years to come.

Merry

From: bronwynmgn at aol.comnospam (Bronwynmgn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 08 Sep 2004 23:21:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Medieval Children

In article <413e46a1 at rsl2.rslnet.net>, "Heather" <gusgus at lightspeed.ca> writes:
>Therefore, if you happen
>to know any primary or translated secondary sources related to the lives of
>children between 600AD and 1650AD anywhere in the world,

Are you familiar with Barbara Hanawalt's books?  She has several, including
Growing Up in Medieval London and The Ties That Bound, that rely extensively on
primary sources and have a great deal of info about childhood.  They are
tertiary sources, of course, but very full bibliographies and footnote sthat
could be useful to you.

Brangwayna Morgan

Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 23:15:51 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How much land to feed a person
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Am Dienstag, 3. Mai 2005 23:07 schrieb Phlip:
> You know, guys, I keep seeing this thread, and thinking of a mud pie 
> eating contest. Are mud pies even period?

In the left background of Pieter Breughel's 1560 painting 'children's games',
today at the Kunsthistorisches Museum, Vienna,  we can see a child (of
indeterminate gender) playing on a sand hill. There is a darker patch of sand
to its left clearly modelled in three dimensions that can be tentatively
identified as a precursor of the mud pie. I assume, however, that a mud pie
as the 20th century understands it would require a shaped mould that was not
in common use by children before plastic put it within financial reach of
most families in Europe, but I am told that mud pies are still made without
those tools by peasant communities in Africa and South America.

What do you mean it wasn't a serious question?

Giano

From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at earthlink.net>
Date: April 27, 2006 7:15:22 AM CDT
To: moiranliam at earthlink.net, "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc."  
<ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] A subject change...

> Two kids under the age of 2 makes eventing.. tricky for me and Liam.  So,
> keeping in mind I can NOT be the first woman to bring smalls to an event, I
> seek the wisdom of those who have pulled this off  (eventing with babies).
> They're too small for children's activities, our closest family is in
> Biloxi, and it's not like we can leave them at home like cats where they
> get a big bowl of food and a warning about keggers.  Hints, tips,  
> tricks?
>
> Moira Lindsay

This is taken from my answer to a similar question on the Rialto some  
years ago...

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. (3 times)

1. Invest in a portable crib. They are invaluable as playpens during  
the day, don't take up too much space in the tent/crash space at  
night, and can be packed relatively easily.

2. Invest in a good backpack/carrier. We used one that was basically  
a pouch with long straps, and could be used as a front, back, or side
pack. This is great for carrying/cuddling the baby and leaving your  
hands free. I've worn it while serving feasts, doing site preperation  
(including cutting down a small tree with an axe one time--baby  
Robert thought that was great fun) attending classes and meetings, etc.

3. Realize that babies don't just take up time, they take up space.  
Counting carseat, portable crib, diaper bag, extra diapers, clothes,  
etc., your baby will need nearly as much transport space as an adult.  
You may need a bigger car (and tent).

4. Remember your priorities. The baby comes before fighting or court  
or A&S projects or whatever. Unless you hold the bardic circle outside
your own tent, one of you will have to stay with Junior if the other  
one wants to go out and party. On the other hand, if you have the  
bardic circle by your tent, the noise will probably keep her awake  
(and fussy).
There may be times when the only reasonable thing to do is to take  
your family home, rather than try to endure the heat/cold/rain or  
whatever surprises the Ansteorran weather has in store that weekend.

5. You *could* leave the little tyke with Grandma, but don't be  
surprised if he shows no interest in the SCA when bigger. Our three  
were all going to events within a few weeks of birth, and loved it.

6. Some folks use an "SCA babysitter", someone who helps with the kid  
in exchange for transportation and site/feast fees. I've never tried
it, so I can't comment, but it sounds like a good idea.

7. Pack *lots* of extra clothes. kids & dirt are like magnets & iron.

8. If there are other families in your group, see about networking  
and trading kid-juggling for a while. On the plus side, you've got  
extra eyes and hands if you get overwhelmed. On the minus side, if  
your ideas on discipline and behaviour don't match, you're going to  
have friction.

9. If at all possible, plan ahead with your spouse, and be willing to  
make sacrifices. "Well, I really want to do X. If you can watch Small
then, I'll watch her during court so you can go herald."

10. Pack kid-food for lunch and feast. The average 2-year old  
probably won't be interested in eels seethed in wine, no matter *how*  
period it
is. Especially if feast is after court and court is running late. . .  
Use things that don't require refrigeration whenever feasible, since  
even the best ice chest isn't perfect.

11. Teach your kids basic SCA rules: Don't touch other people's stuff  
without asking, knives and fires are dangerous, etc. (We taught our
kids"HOLD" while crossing the street.) Take the time to show them  
dangerous situations and explain why they are dangerous. For example,
The site has a river on one boundary. Make time to take the kid(s)  
down and let them see it and maybe throw a few rocks in. Explain that
you can't go swimming now because it's too cold, or you don't have  
your suits, or swimming time is later when everybody can go. Make sure
they understand that Daddy or Mother has to come with, to go look at  
the river again. (My youngest daughter is reading over my shoulder  
and comments "I remember that.")

12. Set reasonable boundaries for the bigger kids. "Don't go past  
this tree, and this tent, and don't cross that road. Stay off the  
list field, of course, otherwise, have fun." Watch toddlers  
carefully--they're old enough to find trouble, but not old enough to  
avoid it. Remember that portable crib/playpen? It's still useful.

12. Try to have SCA-appropriate toys, but don't be fanatical about  
it. Be *very* careful about toy swords; most of them can still hurt if
used with force. Our kids have a rule of "only hit people who are  
wearing armor", and we give them the opportunity to take a few shots
at Mother or Daddy when they are in armor.

13. It's never too early to start teaching courtesy. It's much easier  
to teach "please" and "thank you" when they are learning to talk, than
to suddenly spring it on them at age 7.

         -Tivar Moondragon

From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
Date: April 27, 2006 9:48:19 AM CDT
To: moiranliam at earthlink.net, "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA,  Inc.'"  
<ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] RE: ... and a subject change...

Moira Lindsay wrote:
> Two kids under the age of 2 makes eventing.. tricky for me and Liam.  So,
> keeping in mind I can NOT be the first woman to bring smalls to an event, I
> seek the wisdom of those who have pulled this off  (eventing with babies).
> They're too small for children's activities, our closest family is in
> Biloxi, and it's not like we can leave them at home like cats where they
> get a big bowl of food and a warning about keggers.  Hints,
> tips, tricks?

Small children in the SCA! What fun.  I haven't done TWO children under the
age of two, and I can imagine that it would be a bigger-than-normal handful.
Still, what works for me with an almost-2 and a 6 year old:

I echo bringing along a portable playpen/crib thingy, at least while they're
not walking yet. Very nice to be able to set down a child and not have to
worry about them crawling through the dirt and stickers! We used one while
camping, and occasionally when day-tripping.

Otherwise, we use a giant wooden wagon most heavily. Early on we invested in
the Radio Flyer ATW wagon, wood sides and a weight limit of 250lbs. When
it's not hauling our stuff, it's hauling kids, or serving as a bed for the
youngest for naptime or at night. I even change diapers on it. It's padded
with a quilted sleep mat that rolls up for storage. The oldest has finally
outgrown it (just in time for the youngest to switch to it, which we're
working on...)  It was expensive, but probably the best baby-gear purchase
we've ever made. Plus, it's a toy!

Having the regular help of friends is a must-have. You can only do so much
switching off between parents, especially if you have more than one child
that needs to be supervised.

Bathroom breaks -- shudder.  I regularly scout out sites to figure out the
best facilities to use, PARTICULARLY when toilet training or with newly
toilet-trained kids.  For camping, we actually have our own portable toilet
seat with "pack-it-in/pack-it-out" drychem bags that backpackers use.  For
primitive sites, that or a handicapped port-a-potty are your best bets;
never try to take a small child into a regular-sized port-a-potty.

Always bring lots of munchies and such that won't go bad.  My kids will
largely eat anything, and frequently mooch off of anyone around them (sigh),
but some children are far more picky. I'm way more picky during feast than
my kids are! A long feast typically won't hold their attention span either,
so be prepared to either not do feast, or get up a lot, or leave early.

When my oldest was 2 or so, she abruptly stopped wanting to drink from her
sippy cup at events. She kept grabbing at my mug. Took me a while to figure
out that she wanted her own mug! I managed to find a small child-sized
pottery mug with a nice handle, and she toddled around with that thing full
of water for the next several years until it met an untimely end on a
concrete floor. We're now on mug #2, and I can always be sure that she's
drinking plenty of water because she hardly sets it down.  Kid #2 figured
out at Crown Tourney that her sippy cup fits perfectly inside dad's metal
tankard, and stole it, leaving him with no cup!  What the heck, a tankard
with a sippy lid still looks better than a bright orange plastic sippy cup.
:)

As soon as the oldest kid can walk, get them their own little camp chair.
You can usually find cheap folding camp chairs to mimic the larger ones at
Walmart or Target. The most "just like mom & dad" stuff, the better.

Camping at events can be a chore during setup and take down, and is when a
portable playpen comes in most handy, unless you have lots of extra hands. I
am still tied to the tent at night (kids won't fall asleep without mom
nearby), and so the most going out I get to do is to sit right outside the
door. In case of the occasional screaming fit, we don't like to camp right
in the middle of things, so this means I've forfeited most of my nighttime
socializing. Bummer, but eh. Some things you gotta give up.

No matter how late at night, I don't give up court, however. Neither kid
wants to sleep as long as there's still stuff going on, so at worst I have
to stand up in the back of court trying to get the youngest cranky one to
settle down. (A crying kid in the front of court is never a good thing.)

At one point we started hauling along a wooden box of SCA-only toys; we've
gotten out of the habit, but now with the youngest hitting 2 next month I
think it's about time to redo the box.  It always had paper or coloring
books, crayons, one or two small stuffed animals or a cloth doll, and a few
other odds and ends like that. Nothing that you will care if it gets
accidentally lost or destroyed, but likewise nothing that is bright plastic
and makes electronic beeping noises.

The HARDEST thing I've ever had to deal with was bottle-feeding.
(Breast-feeding is sooooo much more portable!) I always brought my own
bottled water, liners, and powdered formula, and just reused the same bottle
and nipple over and over (being sure to rinse it out good). Ugh. Luckily
both my kids took room-temp water, so I never had to figure out how to warm
a bottle or keep one cold or anything like that.

At bare minimum, when daytripping, we always bring the wagon, a few bottles
of water (easier than bugging the waterbearers), animal crackers, mugs, and
the must-have blankies. (And garb, of course.)  OH and spare diapers.  Stash
some in the car just in case!

-Emma

From: Kingdom Webminister <vscribe at ansteorra.org>
Date: April 27, 2006 10:21:45 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Bringing up baby in the SCA was RE: ... and a  
subject change...

I learned the hard way that I could not volunteer my time and
bring the kids even WITH help such as a sitter for the kids.
All I could do was run back and forth every 3 hours to make
sure they were ok. When they were old enough to go to
children's activities one of mine walked away from the group
unnoticed and was found by security then brought to me. I just
about died. But he was unharmed, just really upset that he
could not find mommy.

I agree with Aethelyan and Emma, you gotta pack completely
different! But you know that part already. :)

One of my worst SCA memories was like my second or third event
where we found a child screaming his head off. He was sitting
in a pile of those big red ants and his dad was not far away
yelling at anyone that came near the child. It was horrible.

One of my best memories was having a group mommy tea where we
all just sat with our babies and talked about everything baby
that was driving our 'not married, not with child friends' mad.
:)

The biggest tip that I can think of is to be mindful of the
weather. Know way ahead of time what the conditions are going
to be. If you are going to be cold, they are going to be
colder, if you are going to be hot, they are going to hitting
heat exhaustion. For the heat since that is just around the
corner, do the traditional South Texas air conditioner trick
... bowl of ice with a fan behind it. :)

You can purchase solar panels from Harbor Freight now for
anywhere from 10 for a phone charger to 200 for one that will
run an air conditioner.

Chiara

HL Chiara
Kingdom Webminister, Ansteorra

From: Elizabeth Blackthorne <damsle_n_distress2003 at yahoo.com>
Date: April 27, 2006 4:35:53 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA  Inc." <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Principality, Gas, and a subject change...

I took my 2-year old (at the time) nephew to an event, and camped with him.  One thing that allowed me to be able to be part of the adult night life, while also being a responsible auntie was having one of those air mattress/sleeping bags.  During the day when he crashed down for an unexpected nap, moving that out of the tent and placing it under a pavilion, out of the sun, allowed me to be near the list field, and keep an eye on him.  Then later that night during the "adult gatherings", I moved it out of the way, still though close enough to see him, and let him sleep there until I took him to bed with me.

The reason this worked is because that boy could sleep through anything.

Elizabeth

From: Elizabeth Blackthorne <damsle_n_distress2003 at yahoo.com>
Date: April 27, 2006 6:37:13 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Principality, Gas, and a subject change...

ok, I just read this.  I feel the need to clarify what I meant by "adult gatherings"  that is not a reference to anything other than the typical reveling that happens after dark.
Elizabeth

Elizabeth Blackthorne <damsle_n_distress2003 at yahoo.com> wrote: I took my 2-year old (at the time) nephew to an event, and camped with him.  One thing that allowed me to be able to be part of the adult night life, while also being a responsible auntie was having one of those air mattress/sleeping bags.  During the day when he crashed down for an unexpected nap, moving that out of the tent and placing it under a pavilion, out of the sun, allowed me to be near the list field, and keep an eye on him.  Then later that night during the "adult gatherings", I moved it out of the way, still though close enough to see him, and let him sleep there until I took him to bed with me.

The reason this worked is because that boy could sleep through anything.

Elizabeth

From: Aline Swynbrook <alineswynbrook at yahoo.com>
Date: July 10, 2007 12:20:22 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT: SCA Baby?

A few notes from someone not yet a parent:

Please don't assume that a gentle who is watching
someone else's children will gladly watch yours as
well without checking with that person.  I was once
watching a friend's child at an event who I could keep
in eye-sight while seat (I had injured my foot three
days before and was not up for much running around). 
Within an hour, five other children had accumulated
with no parents in site to play with the one child I
was watching.  I didn't know most of these children or
their parents and could not easily run after them. 
They were left in my "care" for over 2 hours.

Also, please, please know where your children are and
what they are doing.   At Northkeep's Castellan two
years ago, I returned to the camp my lord and I were
sharing with his Laurel and extended apprentice and
kin to find three young boys trying to catch leaves
and sticks on fire from one of the in camp torches. 
There were no parents in sight, and this was during
the year when the region was under a severe burn ban.

Overall, the majority of parents involved in the SCA
are very good about watching their children, and I
look forward to raising my own children in the SCA one
day.    In the mean time, I would suggest you make
friends with other parents of similarly aged children
and see if they might be willing to share the cost of
a nurse or sitter, or to camp together and share
child-watching duties.  It will keep your children and
those around you safer in the long run.

Ly Aline Swynbrook

Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:50:08 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Age and maturity in the Middle Ages
To: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

At 09:31 AM 9/14/2007, you wrote:
> There's such a knowledgeable group of people here, I thought I'd
> ask, even though it's not food related. Have there been any papers
> on psychosocial development in the middle ages? I recall Barbara
> Tuchman's observations about how young in age many of the rulers
> were during the 100 Years War (leading armies as teenagers), and her
> intimating that some of the problems of the 14th century were
> because so many of the elites (and people in general) were immature
> and had poor impulse control. I can see her point: I look back at
> the asinine things I did at 16 and ask myself what the hell was I
> thinking, and then realize that at the time, no, I was not thinking
> at all, I just did it and didn't think about the consequences.

You might look into Barbara Hanawalt and Shulamith Shahar- both of
them have written about childhood in the Middle Ages, including
adolescence. Georges Duby may also have something  useful.

For what it's worth, I think that the majority of Richard II's
problems as an adult stem directly from how he was handled as a teen,
including the judicial murder of his mentor and tutor, Simon Burley.
Repeatedly humiliating the young king (and queen) was not the wisest
thing the council could have done.

(And payback's a b!tch.)

'Lainie

Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:04:49 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Age and maturity in the Middle Ages
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There's Medieval Children by Nicholas Orme.
http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/book.asp?isbn=9780300097542

Johnnae

was asked
> Have there been any papers
> on psychosocial development in the middle ages?

>> You might look into Barbara Hanawalt and Shulamith Shahar- both of
>> them have written about childhood in the Middle Ages, including
>> adolescence. Georges Duby may also have something  useful.
>> snipped
>> 'Lainie

From: Jennifer Smith <jds at randomgang.com>
Date: July 10, 2007 11:06:55 AM CDT
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] OT?: SCA baby

> About the body harness: The people that give you grief about them have
> obviously never chased a 2 year old through the mall, so tell them that.
> When my kid starts walking, that's the first thing I'm buying. I've at least
> had enough experience chasing my niece through the mall that I think a body
> harness is God's gift to mankind.

This is true, and I think it works great for most people. Both of my girls
are *tiny*, and when they started walking, the smallest harness I could find
was still way too big, and they could just slip out! So we had to learn the
"no, hold mommy's hand" or "stay HERE" routine quickly instead.

One thing I forgot -- court! I'm a court junkie (herald, go figure), so
we've always gone. My youngest still calls SCA events "vivat". "Mama, we go
vivat?" Both girls can do the whole closing court litany... And yes, even
then court does get boring for little ones, particularly in the middle, so I
try to sit near an edge where I can slip out to the back when needed.

-Emma de Fetherstan

From: Alix deBohun <czarena_unrest at yahoo.com>
Date: July 10, 2007 11:41:58 AM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] sca baby -

>>>>>>
Have a patch with your arms on it applied to the child's clothing, perhaps
with your name embroidered on it as well. If the child cannot remember your
SCA name(s), anyone even remotely adept at heraldry can match the arms to
the banner at your campsite or pavilion

>>>>>>> end quote

I realized early on that my son needed to know HIS name at HEB,  
Target, etc if he got lost "Would Johnathan Krell's mother please  
come to the service desk". But at an event, his name wouldn't do him  
much good. So he doesn't know my mundane name at all - he will tell  
anyone who asks that my name is Mommy Alix. He also has a Seawinds  
shell - if someone doesn't recognize my name, they can look for any  
of my shire mates! Of course, if I ever get my arms done, I'll put  
that on him as well.

Lady Alix deBohun - mother of the 4 yr old who challenges anyone with  
a sword to a duel

From: Geneva Tanner <tanner.g at sbcglobal.net>
Date: July 10, 2007 12:28:49 PM CDT
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] OT?: SCA baby

wow this thread brings back memories LOL my kids are 15 and 14 but I camped with my kids when they were 3 moths old and 2 months old respectively.

  Since I was the one who always arrived first and picked out ground space for every one else I always put me and my midnight feeders at the extreme edge of the camp telling all who would camp near me that I had young children. Most understood and most were okay with that but you are always going to have a few.

  My Stroller was a old English pram that would go four wheeling and looked moderately period (got more complements on it then any thing else I owned LOL)

  When my kids got older a harness was my best friend since my kids did the divide and conquer routine at the mall and when one took off the other looked to see where the other went and took off in the other direction LOL 

  Pack and plays were great in the tent as portable beds and my kids would sleep ANYWHERE!

  Toys were wood and passed on when we out grew them But I still have my sons first spear and shield packed up and away for the first grand baby LOL 

  I hope you get good ideas from this thread It sure has brought back a lot of memories :-) 

  Lady Gwen

From: Christine Huse <casa_de_vaca at sbcglobal.net>
Date: July 10, 2007 9:34:07 PM CDT
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] sca baby - Heraldry

I have a tunic with The Fray device on it because my husband in The Fray.
About 3 years ago, we were at Three Kings and I was trying to help the MoC
with sewing some mittens.  I turned my back on my 3 year old for less than
10 seconds, turned around and she was gone (kids are too quick for having
such little legs). She was found on the list field seconds before they
called lay on. The field marshal scooped her up and took her to a Frayman.
Please understand, I am not a bad mom and I am very good at watching my wee
one, but like I said they are very quick....tunics with a familiar group
device is very helpful when these things happen.

I suggest either a household or group device on a tunic. With tunics they
can not remove them.  Household or group devices are easily recognizable and
if your child does do a Houdinni trick on you, someone can locate someone
you know to get your child back to you.  I agree with Alden on badges and
devices.

Maria

-----Original Message-----
While most people are likely to identify your device and associate that 
with you, putting your device on someone else implies that person *is* 
you, or speaks with your authority (ie, your herald).  Badges are used 
to identify a person's belongings (including people).  Unfortunately, 
not many people bother with registering badges, or use them enough to be 
regularly associated with them, so the connection of a little one 
wearing a parent's badge would be wasted.  Using a branch's populace 
badge, or a commonly known household's badge would work well though in 
at least getting the little one to the right group of people.

Submit to the heralds!  Register your name and armory today before 
someone else does!  Ask your local herald for assistance.

Alden Drake

From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: January 19, 2008 6:38:28 PM CST
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] speaking of children...

> So a couple things to think about in answering: what are your attitudes
> toward children (especially those of other people)? What is there -  in the
> SCA or at any given event - for children to be involved in? What do we do to
> not just make room for them in our dream, but make them a /part/ of it, and
> make ourselves a part of their dream?

Well-behaved kids are fine at events. The ones whose parents seem to
expect everybody else to be the babysitter while the parents are off
playing can be a real nuisance.

Things kids in the SCA can do:

Official children's activities.
Play with their friends--kids are endlessly inventive; even at a site
with nothing but a pile of rocks and sticks, they'll still find
*something* to do.
Boffer fighting, if they're at least 6.
Youth Rapier, if they're at least 12.
Water bearing, if they're big enough to carry the bottle and
responsible enough to do it properly.
Running cards between the heralds and the list mistress.
A&S-type stuff. Older kids can certainly learn to do embroidery or
calligraphy or somesuch. At many events there's a scribes' table
where they're working on current or future scrolls--a good place for
a kid with an artistic turn of mind.
Helping in the kitchen or with serving--again, presuming they're big
enough and responsible enough. (Our oldest daughter started serving
feasts when she was about 4 years old. By the time she was 8 or so,
she was capable of serving just like the grown-ups--even though few
cooks or head servers would believe it. I would frequently volunteer
to serve aong woth her, then I'd carry the platter of food and she'd
do the actual serving.)

As a generalization, if a kid is above the age of ten or so, acts
like an adult and interacts with other adults like an adult, most SCA
adults will *treat* the kid like an adult.

          -Tivar Mondragon

From: Autumn Selby <arianna_janae at yahoo.com>
Date: January 20, 2008 1:38:08 PM CST
To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra] Speaking of Children

I started playing in the SCA when I was 15, and my
parents weren't active, which made it somewhat
difficult to travel sometimes. I was one of those 15
year olds going on 30. I didn't really fit in with the
other teenagers but enjoyed staying up late and
listening to people tell stories round the camp fires.
For me, the SCA was about water bearing during the
day, serving feast in the evening, and socializing at
night, that is what I enjoyed doing. 

Fast forward ten years later and I am now bringing my
5-year old daughter to events. She went to her first
event at 15 months and has been right by my side ever
since. I make sure that I bring many things to play
with during the day and my social butterfly always
manages to find friends. My daughter has done
children's activities only 4 times and she enjoyed
them just as much as she enjoyed playing with the
other children at events. As someone stated before,
children have wonderful imaginations and will pretty
much entertain themselves. 

My daughter has also helped me with water bearing,
feast serving, and she is wonderful at picking up
trash and cleaning dishes. And the greatest thing is
that she enjoys helping, it makes her feel a part of
things.

In almost everything that we do in the SCA, there can
be a place for children, and I think that in most
cases, it is up to the parents or guardians to find
ways to include their children in activities. Also, if
your child is interested in youth chivalric, rapier,
or archery and you don't have those activities
available in your own group, take the initiative and
see what needs to be done to offer these in your
group. Talk to your archery marshal, your chivalric
marshal, and your rapier marshal.

~Arianna de Genevois

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:03:07 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] period childhood safety
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>

Celia commented:
<<< People tend to forget that the idea of 'child safe-ing' your home is a
relatively new concept.  Prior to the idea that children must have an almost
laboratory type environment in which to keep them safe, 'child safe-ing' was
called 'discipline' and 'parenting'.  So, I guess I'm "mean Celia" as well,
because I would agree that aversion training is much better than a dead
child. >>>

But medieval parents *did* try to child safe their homes. It was  
often difficult and as you descended down the social scale it got  
more difficult, in part because mom might be the sole head of the  
household or even if she wasn't, she might have her own job or  
household chores to do.

For those interested in finding out more about period childhood and  
raising of children and how it varied across classes, I would  
recommend some of the books by Hanawalt, Barbara A.. In particular I  
would recommend this one:

The Ties That Bound: Peasant Families in Medieval England
Hanawalt, Barbara A.
ISBN: 0-19-504564-5
Oxford University Press
January 1989

In particular she uses 3000 coroner's reports which gives an idea of  
what dangers children faced while growing up, often in the home. And  
since these are *coroner's* reports, sometimes the child proofing/ 
discipline didn't succeed.

Some of the description:

Synopsis
Using a wealth of 14th century sources, including over 3000 coroners'  
reports, this is both a detailed account of everyday life in the  
Middle Ages, and an historical study of the medieval family unit - a  
unit which has survived, largely unchanged, to the present day.

Book Description
Barbara A. Hanawalt's richly detailed account offers an intimate view  
of everyday life in Medieval England that seems at once surprisingly  
familiar and yet at odds with what many experts have told us. She  
argues that the biological needs served by the family do not change  
and that the ways fourteenth- and fifteenth-century peasants coped  
with such problems as providing for the newborn and the aged,  
controlling premarital sex, and alleviating the harshness of their  
material environment in many ways correspond with our twentieth- 
century solutions.

Using a remarkable array of sources, including over 3,000 coroners'  
inquests into accidental deaths, Hanawalt emphasizes the continuity  
of the nuclear family from the middle ages into the modern period by  
exploring the reasons that families served as the basic unit of  
society and the economy. Providing such fascinating details as a  
citation of an incantation against rats, evidence of the hierarchy of  
bread consumption, and descriptions of the games people played, her  
study illustrates the flexibility of the family and its capacity to  
adapt to radical changes in society. She notes that even the terrible  
population reduction that resulted from the Black Death did not  
substantially alter the basic nature of the family.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
    Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas           

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