Title: fasteners-msg
Subject: clothing fasteners. buttons.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: lace, buttons, medieval, ties, frogs, clothing

fasteners-msg - 5/31/01

Clothing fasteners, buttons, lacings, frogs.

NOTE: See also the files: trim-msg, beads-msg, belts-msg, clothing-msg, clothing-bib, clothing-books-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

[Messages with <EB> near the date were submitted to me by Mistress 
Elizabeth Braidwood, An Tir] - editor.

From: rhe6 at quads.uchicago.edu (mindy miriam rheingold)
Date: 19 Mar 91 02:06:12 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

Two of the most common ways of fastening garments in the 14th century were
lacing and buttons.  Garments were laced in a spiral fashion (for example;
in at the right hole, out at the left hole; in at the next right hole, etc)
rather than the cris-cross fashion used nowadays.

Buttons were made of wood, bone, various metals, semi-precious or
precious stones (if you were wealthy), and had toggles rather than
shanks.  There has been, alas, no evidence found for button loops,
so if you wanna be really medieval, you needs must sew button holes
(They're not too bad if you machine sew them).

I would guess, though I am not certain, that ties and buckles would
be more commonly used in fastening armor than in fastening clothes.

One more note--lacing was done from bottom to top.

Madeleine

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: sherman at trln.lib.unc.edu (dennis r. sherman)
Subject: Re: Buttons
Organization: Triangle Research Libraries Network
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1993 22:22:09 GMT

Philippa d'Ecosse writes:
>I'm not all that good at tying bows with my teeth, I wondered if
>some sort of button might be acceptably period.

Geoff Egan and Frances Pritchard, _Dress Accessories c.1150-c.1450, 
Medieval Finds from Excavations in London vol.3_, London: HMSO, 1991.  
ISBN 0 11 29044 0

Find this book!!!  Available from HMSO bookshops, but you have to call 
London to order, and its the most expensive paperback book I've ever 
bought.  If you want to call -- country code + 071-873-9090, I think 
its a 24 hour order line.

Note from the title that this book deals with London in a restricted 
range of years -- that doesn't mean other times and places didn't use 
similar stuff, but you can't prove it from this source.

Brief notes from chapter on buttons:
- buttons probably came into common use in England and Europe in the 
early 13th century
- excavated buttons generally fall in three categories:
	*cast, usually solid lead/tin with integral shanks, or bronze 
	with embedded wire shanks
	*composite sheeting, made of two stamped pieces of copper alloy
	soldered together and wire shank soldered in place
	*cloth, bunch of scrap cloth sewn into ball
- buttons vary in size from 8mm to 15.5mm diameter for the metal, 
4mm-6mm for round cloth, 14mm-35mm for loose, flat cloth, which may 
have had a stiffener inside

--
  Robyyan Torr d'Elandris  Kapellenberg, Windmaster's Hill  Atlantia
               --------------------------------------
  Dennis R. Sherman  	         Triangle Research Libraries Network
  dennis_sherman at unc.edu       Univ. of North Carolina - Chapel Hill

From: PRIEST at vaxsar.vassar.EDU (CAROLYN PRIEST-DORMAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Buttons
Date: 10 Apr 1993 21:41:35 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Unto the Fishyfolk of the Rialto, greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

For the lady that asked about buttons:  cast bronze shanked buttons exist from
ninth- and tenth-century Birka (Sweden).  The buttons themselves were about the
size of small, shelled hazelnuts, while the shanks were about as long again as
the buttons and were pierced with one hole each.  The buttons were used on
men's overcoats.

Early Anglian women's underdresses sometimes had metal wrist-cuffs to keep the
sleeves from flopping.  They were two flat plates, one with a hooked lip and
one with a slit, which were sewn to the sleeve or to a tablet-woven cuff.  A
similar type of clasp is known from fifth-century Norway in the Evebo jarl's
grave.

E-mail me for sources....

****************************************************************************
	Thora Sharptooth	Frosted Hills		East Kingdom
	Carolyn Priest-Dorman	Poughkeepsie, NY	priest at vassar.edu
****************************************************************************

From: ayotte at milo.UUCP (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Buttons
Date: 28 Jul 1994 06:11:37 -0400
Organization: the internet

In article <9407271846.aa27423 at mc.lcs.mit.edu> you wrote:
 : (could be a "You Know You're In The SCA When...")

 : A couple of days back, I was looking for buttons for a doublet. I was
 : pretty picky. I didn't want anything too shiny, I didn't want anything
 : looking too dirty, I didn't want anything too big, I wanted something
 : pretty flat, I wanted something that went with the costume, and I wanted
 : it to look mediaeval.

 : Eventually I found one set of lovely silver/plated buttons, in great
 : enough quantities for my purpose (a doublet.) They satisfied everything
 : above. Unfortunately the design on them was a pentacle/pentagram (can't
 : remember which is which) inside a laurel wreath...

 : --
 : 	Geoffrey the Quiet (gbrent at rsc.anu.edu.au)
 : 	who found some other really nice buttons without these problems
 : 	eventually.

 	I have a source for buttons in lead free pewter, they are even
willing to do cusom work or take designs and not charge the custom
molding costs with a large enough order.
	All you need to do is send them a period example or photo, or a
drawing or idea and the artist there (Nancy) will work up the design
and get back with you before production.  Costs are very low (for existing
researched buttons ranging in period but many taken from molds made
from originals in museums they range from $2 to $7.50 a doz.
	They also have buckles and medallions, and do quite a bit of custom
work at reasonable prices.  They also carry pewter reproductions of
pieces of 8!  They also have some BRASS BUTTONS.

 	Did I mention they also do some later period shoes?????

 The company is called Fugawee Corp,  and their number is 1-800-749-0387
 Address
 3127 Corrib Drive
 Tallahassee, FL, 32308

	Consider getting a set of buttons with the Kingdom's device, or
enough for a household of later period folks.  They are re-enactors and take
great care with detail.

 Horace of Northshield

From: iys6lri at mvs.oac.ucla.edu (Lori Iversen)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Fast-and-dirty renfair costumes
Date: 7 Feb 1995 00:14:50 GMT
Organization: ucla

In article <3h3s4v$3td at newsbf02.news.aol.com>, connect at aol.com (CONNECT) says:
>
>>>>Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA says:
>
>Don't use metal eyelets- they pull out, scratch, and aren't historically 
>correct anyway.<<<
>
>Have you read Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion? In it, she shows metal
>eyelets. [small snip on how to install 'em]
>Yours in Service,
>Rosalyn MacGregor of Glen Orchy
>Pattie Rayl of Cynnabar
>
>*        Patricia Snyder-Rayl        *  (313) 973-8825
>*          CONNECT Magazine          *  (800) GET-CONNECT
>*Covering Commercial Online Services,*  (313) 973-0411 fax
>*   the Internet, and BBS Networks   *  (313) 973-9137 BBS

Alexis here!

Arnold does indeed carry photos of metal eyelets in Elizabethan garb.
She also notes in her text that these eyelets were overcast with thread,
which makes them look a lot like itty bitty button holes -- which is
another option for lacing:  set your buttonholer on its smallest size
(or measure your holes no longer than 3/8") and stitch away; don't
space your eyelets or buttonholes any further apart than 1".  And
you *must* put some kind of boning (even if it's just featherweight,
although spring steel stays are better) between your lacing holes and
the edge of your bodice; otherwise you end up with unsightly gapes all
the way down your chest.

Good luck!

Alexis Vladescu                                Lori Iversen
WyvernHo-ette                                  (IYS6LRI at mvs.oac.ucla.edu)
Altavia, CAID                                  The Valley, CA

From: mugjf at uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (Gwyndlyn J Ferguson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA Fallacies
Date: 7 Apr 1995 19:42:50 GMT
Organization: Educational Computing Network

With the idea in mind that out of context "factoids" can be just as 
damaging as the fallacy in the first place, how about expanding from a 
simple list of short sentences, to the short sentence followed by a brief 
paragraph.
Example:
Buttons are period.
	Most evidence shows that buttons were first used as fasteners on western 
European clothing in the middle Thirteenth Century on men's tunics and women's gowns.  
Archaeological evidence has found buttons on clothing from much earlier 
on Anglo-Saxon tunics found in burial sites.

See, short and sweet, without the broad "its in period" generalization.  
I can document this information from personal research and observation.  
In fact, I have said this pretty much verbatim to members of my shire who 
have asked me for costuming help.  They now have an idea of time period 
within "period" and location for what they want to do.
gf

--
*Gwyn Ferguson***Western Illinois University
*SCA: Lady Gwyndlyn Caer Vyrddin***Lochmorrow-Midrealm
*Internet: mugjf at bgu.edu

From: jennyb at pdd.3com.com (4/13/95)
To: markh at sphinx
RE>Period footwear...

>What are roll buttons? A strip of leather rolled into a roll with a cord
>tied around the middle?

You take a strip of leather 2 or three inches long and as wide as your
finger. Cut it so that it tapers to a point at one end of the strip
giving you a long thin triangle.

Roll the strip up from the fat end to the narrow end, when it's about
half rolled pierce a couple of slits in the rolled up bit and thread the
thin end of the triangle down through the first slit towards the centre
of the roll then up through the second slit out of the roll. Pull the
thin end hard so that you end up with a roll of leather on a short
tapering thong, (the tapering thong bit is your triangle's end).

This is your button, it is attached to your boot by piercing a small slit
in the boot pulling the thong through the hole & knotting it.

An alternative to knotting is splitting the thong in two, threading each
branch of the thong through a different hole in your boot then piercing
one branch of the thong & threading the other though it. This is less
bulky than a knot & hence comfier to have inside a boot.

Another alternative is to pierce the thong after it has been threaded
thorough the slit in the boot, & thread the thong through itself so it makes
a short loop.

> Do they fit into a slot cut in the opposite flap
>or into some sort of loop?

Both techniques are used, in Hedeby denmark some went through a slot in
a boot flap, in York, England some went through loops attached to the
end of a flap.

>Sounds like a good referance, except I don't read any German. Sigh.

It's got loads of diagrams & drawings which are useful even if you don't read
German, the full reference is:-

 Series title: Ausgrabungen in Haithabu
 Volume: Bericht 21
 Volume title: Die Lederfunde von Haithabu
 Author: Willy Groenman-van Waateringe
 Publishers: Karl Wacholtz Verlag, Neumunster 
 ISSN: 0 525 5791
 ISBN: 3 529 1921 6

I forgot to write the date down, I think it was 1984, but i wouldn't swear
to it.

Jennifer/Rannveik

From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period buttons
Date: 15 Oct 1995 04:30:48 GMT
Organization: Best Internet Communications

Constance Fairfax asks about buttons:

Look in the Museum of London _Dress Accessories_ book, pp. 272-280, for
lots of period buttons.

David/Cariadoc
-- 
ddfr at best.com

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period buttons
Date: 15 Oct 1995 15:03:11 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

The museum book that accompanied the Irish Art exhibit (1970s tour of 
USA) showed a metal shank button decorated with a triskele and apparently 
intended to be inlaid with something; it was found in an eighth century 
Irish context.

-- Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.nete)

From: dickeney at access1.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: If not buttonholes, then what?
Date: 18 Dec 1995 08:43:55 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In article <francis-1712952227450001 at tigana.microserve.com>,
John [Francis] Stracke <francis at tigana.microserve.com> wrote:
>
>I'm finishing up my first cotehardie, sewing the buttons on, and I'm
>becoming dissatisfied with button-loop tape.  I mean, it works (though it
>kind of limits the size of the buttons I can use, by how much it
>stretches), but it's obviously way out of period.  I'm not sure how much
>that bothers me, since you can't see it behind the buttons (and the
>cotehardie's got a couple of more serious construction flaws, anyway ;-);
>but I'd like to do something more authentic next time if I can.
>
>So what did they do? I've heard buttonholes are OOP; 

Buttonholes are not OOP.

>I'm envisaging button
>loops done with thread or thin ribbon, but I'm not sure how well that'll
>work, without elastic.  

I've done it; you have to know what size buttons you're going to use 
before you make the loops.  (I used thin cord--stronger than thread and 
ribbon.)

>The Known World Handbook, from which I'm doing the
>cotehardie, just says "a row of buttons", without mentioning details;
>_20,000 Years of Fashion_ doesn't seem to mention buttons at all (though I
>do see one cotehardie illustration where they're obviously there [#315, p.
>178]).
>
Try some other costume books if you can find them.  Carl Kohler's History 
of Costume is still available from Dover books, if your library is 
deficient.  Also look at art books for portraits in your period; and 
don't ignore books of religious art, since paintings done during the 
Renaissance usually costumed everyone in standard clothing of the date of 
the painting.

>Also, what sort of buttons are acceptable? I'm pretty sure little white
>balls are OK, but they're kind of boring.  :-)

Shank buttons are definitely ok.  Gold filigree I think has been 
mentioned also.  A metal shank button found in Ireland (circa 8th Ct AD?) 
had a triskele design probably originally inlaid with enamel (this from 
the book of the Irish Art Exhibit that toured this country in the 
seventies).  I used small black buttons with slightly flat tops; not 
necessarily period, but inconspicuous on a dark garment.

-- Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net)

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: If not buttonholes, then what?
Date: 18 Dec 1995 17:51:17 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

John [Francis] Stracke (francis at tigana.microserve.com) wrote:

: I'm finishing up my first cotehardie, sewing the buttons on, and I'm
: becoming dissatisfied with button-loop tape.  I mean, it works (though it
...
: So what did they do? I've heard buttonholes are OOP;

Yikes! Who in the world told you that? Buttonholes are absolutely, most 
definitely period, particularly for cotehardies. To wave one of my 
all-time favorite books around ... check out the photographic evidence in 
Crowfoot et al. "Textiles and Clothing" (Museum of London series). It 
shows a number of edges of 14th century garments with numerous 
buttonholes, worked in ... you guessed it, buttonhole stitch. They would 
be worked through the main fabric and a facing -- in at least one example 
the facing appears to have extended no farther than the edge of the 
buttonholes. One of the most surprising details shown is that the edge of 
the garment was often reinforced (since the buttonholes were often quite 
close to the edge) by a narrow strip of tablet-weaving with the weft 
thread being stitched through the edge of the garment on each pass. 
(There's a diagram -- it makes much more sense when you've seen it.) The 
book also gives detailed information on the construction of cloth buttons 
often found on the same garments.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: memorman at oldcolo.com (Mary Morman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: If not buttonholes, then what?
Date: 18 Dec 1995 20:48:40 GMT
Organization: Old Colorado City Communications (oldcolo.com - login "newuser")

John [Francis] Stracke (francis at tigana.microserve.com) wrote:

: So what did they do? I've heard buttonholes are OOP; 

elaina here.

i too, had heard this rumor, but found concrete evidence to the 
contrary at the museum of the city of paris (in paris) 18 months
ago.  they have there a small exhibit ( i have the catalog and
can mail pages to anyone interested) of textiles found in a midden
in a late 14th century layer on the ile de la cite (the island in 
the middle of the seine on which the original city of paris was built).

one piece about three inches wide by eight inches long is part of 
a sleeve from a cotehardie.  there are a dozen buttonholes stitched
with, that's right, buttonhole stitch.

an interesting sidelight to the microscopic analysis of these
fragments is that they found dog hair adhering to much of the
woolen material.  so now when folks comment on the dog hair
around my hem (and knees, and sleeves, and...) i can pull out my
documentation and tell them it's a period practice.

elaina de sinistre
dragonsspine, outlands
memorman at oldcolo.com

From: wmclean290 at aol.com (WMclean290)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: If not buttonholes, then what?
Date: 18 Dec 1995 16:58:39 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

In article <francis-1712952227450001 at tigana.microserve.com>,
francis at tigana.microserve.com (John [Francis] Stracke) writes:

>Also, what sort of buttons are acceptable? I'm pretty sure little white
>balls are OK, but they're kind of boring.  :-)

Yes, buttonholes are period for the 14th c.. Cloth and cloth covered
buttons are well documented for the same period., in the same fabric as
the garment.  The modern kits for cloth covered buttons are an easy way to
get the right general effect, although for maximum authenticity you can
make them yourself. "Medieval Finds from Excavations in London. Vol. 4:
Textiles and Clothing", Crowfoot et al, has really good info. 

Vol. 3 from the same series, "Dress Accessories", Egan and Pritchard, has
metal buttons from the same period, usually cast and always made with
shanks (as opposed to being peirced with holes like a modern shirt button.

Marianne Hansen (Mhh4 at cornell.edu) 520 Adam Ave., Ithaca NY 14850, casts
intensely cool reproductions of several of those buttons in pewter from
handmade soapstone molds. She also makes buckles, fittings, belt mounts,
badges, pins and spoons. Neat stuff!

One interesting detail: On all of the London finds the buttons are sewn to
the very edge of the garment, rather than set slightly back from the edge
as in modern garments. You can see the same detail in many paintings from
the 14th and 15th c. if you look closely.

Will McLean/Galleron de Cressy

From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: If not buttonholes, then what?
Date: 20 Dec 1995 02:38:57 GMT
Organization: Delphi Internet Services Corporation

Quoting francis from a message in rec.org.sca

   >So what did they do? I've heard buttonholes are OOP; I'm envisaging
   >button loops done with thread or thin ribbon, but I'm not sure how
   >well that'll work, without elastic.

The covered cord ladies use for lacing works very well for this. You stitch
it to the edge of the fabric between the button-locations, leaving loops of
adequate size for the buttons between the stitched-down places (it looks
rather like openwork scalloping down the edge).  This works for a row of
buttons.  If you have only one, or only a few, wide apart, make a separate
loop for each button out of the same kind of covered cord.  Best if the cord
matches the fabric of the cotehardie.  This can be accomplished by making
your own:  Cut bias strips of the fabric, and sew them end-to-end until you
have the length you need plus a bit.  Stitch the long edges together to make
a tube, which should be of sufficient diameter for the cord you'll insert.
Tack the cord to one end, then pull the tubing over the cord, which pulls it
right-side-out.  Then you may use the resulting covered cord as needed. A
tiny safety pin can be a useful tool in this if you don't have any of the
special tools sold in notion stores for this purpose.

Carolyn Boselli Host of CF 35  SCAdians on Delphi (Medieval Stuff)
Cohost for Caregivers Ref Med   Caring for those we love                  

From: sclark at epas.utoronto.CA (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Buttonholes
Date: 21 Dec 1995 16:57:19 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Greetings!

Just want to back up Tamar on the fact that buttonholes are definitely
_not_ OOP with a source:  Our favourite Museum of London book _Textiles
and Clothing_ by E. Crowfood, F. Pritchard, and K. Staniland (London:
HMSO,1992) shows, on p. 170, a piece of cloth with surviving buttonholes,
as well as a diagram of the method used--it's the buttonhole stitch still
used today to do handsewn buttonholes, and the authors also mention that
the holes were cut before the buttonholes were sewn. (The authors also
assert that buttons were likely introduced on a large scale to Western
Europe in the 13th century, brooches and other such fasteners being
more common as closures before that time).

I have been told that button loops are period.  Anyone have the requisite
documentation for them to go along with what I have for buttonholes? It'd
make a nice addition to my costume files.

Cheers!
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: connect at aol.com (CONNECT)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
Date: 3 Jan 1996 02:37:28 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

Good My Lady Ciorstan wrote:

>back lacing-- and no one has yet ventured a widely accepted
>reason for the little tiny gold dots on the side bodice seam of Jane
>Seymour in her Holbein portrait.

I thought it was generally understood that those are pins.

From Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd by Janet Arnold, pg. 111:

Figure 164 Elizabeth Vernon, Countess of Southampton at her toilet &
Figure 166 shows a detail of a pincushion and jewels.

"Small pins from the pincushion were used to fasten the cuffs, probably of
brass or steel such as those in Fig. 166, although a black pin is also
mentioned. The Queen's clothes would have been pinned in the same way
(Fig. 167)."

Arnold goes on to talk about the pins used in the very late Elizabethan
style with the wheel farthingale and skirts. The flounces on the top edge
of the skirts are pinned, not sewn. So, each time the dress was put on,
the flounces would have to be reconstructed and pinned. No wonder that
style disappeared fast. <grin>

Yours,
Rosalyn MacGregor
Pattie Rayl

From: sweetsheep at aol.com (Sweetsheep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
Date: 4 Jan 1996 10:11:51 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

>>I thought it was generally understood that those are pins.

>Pins, or gold thread tacks are the two most prevalent theories I've
>heard.  Which brings up the more practical question-- if Queen Jane was
>pinned into her bodice (in this particular gown), she must have been 
>limited in her activities. Somehow the idea of wearing a gown that,
>under any type of strain *might* come undone, is less than appealing
>and somewhat impractical.  For a woman whose ceremonial position and
>duties as Queen of England led her to spend a lot of her time seated, I
>suspect that would be fine.  For SCA ladies, who expect to dance,
>flirt, fight and run after both males, females and children as
>required...well, you may see my point. (grin)

Greetings!  I can't resist throwing in my two cents on this subject...  I
can't  find the original citation right now, having just recently moved to
Trimaris my books are rather scattered and disorganized, but I distinctly
remember reading that the pins on Queen Jane's gown were meant to hold the
"stomacher" closed, not to close the gown.  In other words, the gown
actually laces together in front and there is a "stomacher" that covers
the lacings.  The stomacher may be sewn to the bodice on one side (?), but
it is pinned to the bodice on the other side to keeep the laces covered -
hence the line of gold pins.  As I said, I can't find the original
citation off hand, but I know that Jean Hunnisett refers to it in her book
_Period Costume for Stage and Screen:  Patterns for Womens Dress
1500-1800_..
This is actually a rather secure way of fastening your bodice, it allows
for more adjustment (especially if your stomacher pins on both sides - you
simply center it to cover the gap - a friend of mine used this style
during the early stages of her pregnancy) and it allows you to completely
dress yourself in circumstances when there is no help available (small
demos come to mind).

Just my two shillings worth...

Yours in Service,
Dulcia MacPherson

From: sweetsheep at aol.com (Sweetsheep)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
Date: 5 Jan 1996 08:42:13 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

Lady Rosaline MacGregor writes:

>WEll, I've looked over the Holbein picture, and can't see any visible
>evidence that this dress is laced up the front with a panel covering the
>lacing. If that was the case, wouldn't there be some unevenness on the
>front bodice where the fabric laid over the laces underneath? That would
>have to give at least a little "rippling" effect, right? However, the
>lines are all smooth; no rumpling at all.

You may still disagree, but I would like to add to my case that the
authors I read made their assumptions based on more than a single
portrait.  They studied and cited other portraits of the same time period
(1536 for the Jane Seymour portrait, plus/minus about 3-4 years for
dissemination of styles).  The other portrait that leaps to mind is the
Holbein portrait of Sir Thomas More's family where the ladies are wearing
gowns that definately lace up the front over a stomacher.  Additional
sources are the inventories of ladies possesions which very often include
sets of ornamental pins, and descriptive inventories of gowns in
wardrobes.  

As to your comment about the lack of uneveness in the front of Queen
Jane's gown, you seem to be making two assumtions, 1)  that portrait
painters always know and prortray _exactly_ what they see - if they really
did that, no one would ever have had their portrait painted! ;-)
2) that the stomacher was made of only one or two un-reinforced layers of
fabric.  As to the portrait, I have it here in front of me and I notice
that there does appear to be some rippling of the fabric just above Jane's
waist - this seems to be caused by the fact that the pinned stomacher is
never as tense as the laced gown beneath it (does that make sense?).  I
had the same effect with my gown.  The stomacher has to be made of several
layers of fabric, ond preferably boned slightly as well.  If it's not made
to be fairly rigid, it won't stay smooth or maintain the slight arch
across the chest.  In other words, it droops...  ;-)  If you make your
eyelets for lacing the dress inside the boning (like this:  l: :l   not: 
:l l:) and use either ribbon or thin silky cording (ribbon is best) you
actually get very little disturbance on the surface (also use embroidered
eyelets in canvas, or maybe those little metal eyelets, but don't use
those big grommet thingies). In the case of this dress, the unevenness of
the lacing is fairly slight, plus if you're really using the lacings to
adjust for size/fit you often have a gap of one to two inches or so, so
the center front is flat anyway and the stiffened stomacher hides the
other slight distortions.  I used the same technique to make a front
lacing Elizabethan corset that I wear when I don't have someone to lace me
into the corset, as my chemises are often nearly transparent, and the
lacings don't show through the two layers of so of fabric in my gowns. 

I hope that this helps...  Good luck with your gown!

Yours in Service,
Dulcia MacPherson

From: Julie Adams <savaskan at electriciti.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
Date: 9 Jan 1996 03:49:44 GMT
Organization: Savaskan Anatolians

>WEll, I've looked over the Holbein picture, and can't see any visible
>evidence that this dress is laced up the front with a panel covering the
>lacing. If that was the case, wouldn't there be some unevenness on the
>front bodice where the fabric laid over the laces underneath? That would
>have to give at least a little "rippling" effect, right? However, the
>lines are all smooth; no rumpling at all.
>
Actually, I have been in contact with a Tudor reenactment 
group in England who has fairly good documentation that Tudor bodices of 
that style were closed with an underlacing panel and the 
overlapping edge was closed with pins or hooks and eyes. (Which 
you see hints of in the Seymour painting among others). There is 
only one existing painting of the back of a Tudor English gown that 
they/we know of, but there are several in surrounding countries of 
that period and none are laced in the Center Back, though there 
are several existing examples of side-back lacing along the side 
back seam in Italians and Germans. There are also several 
examples in paintings/drawings of front-laced seams. Though I 
don't agree with Ciorstan about pins in place in that location being 
a problem. (as I have seen it done successfully), but only because 
that style has such rigid stays underneath that there is no stress 
when coupled with the underlacing.

I've discussed documentation with some of them awhile ago. This group 
primarily does living history displays at various museums and have 
a lot of access to paintings/items that we do not have. 
There was no documentation they could point me to in any available 
in books or libraries in the US. We tend to only get the same pictures 
in costume and art books here. I know 
this from a trip to Germany as well(German Ren. costuming being 
my specialty), there were LOTS more paintings in Germany that 
we in the US would never see because they were painted by 
anonymous painters. The other items we miss is details in 
illuminated manuscripts which they have access to and we don't, 
and access to non-displayed items in museums and back rooms, 
and in private collections. I think the bodice closure may have also 
been discussed in a British magazine that I think is called Costume,
in articles by Janet Arnold (who also does early Tudor and medieval 
costume research, but has no book about it).  I have had a hard 
time getting copies of articles/magazines from across the 
sea....But anyway, this is a very typically anal-retentive 
reenactment group with the strictest of costume standards, even 
requiring only certain weaves of fabric, and individuals considering
custom ordering brocades to match specific patterns from a company in 
Italy, so I tend to believe them....

We make our German - Cranach-style lace across the front style 
bodices with the underlacing panel and the laces do not bulge and 
are not noticable, but most are lined with a canvas-weight 
linen/cotton weave, linen, or cotton canvas. (Similar weights to 
linings pictured in Janet Arnold's Patterns of Fashion.) It is 
imperative to use the medieval lacing style. Tie off one end (of a 
flat lace, like a shoelace, at the top and barber-pole lace to the 
bottom (no criss-cross lacing like modern tennis shoes). Anyway, 
it works in our clothes and doesn't show at all.  You can also see 
the underlacing strip concept in Janet Arnold in sleeve attachment 
and in men's doublet to slops attachment. I have seen this in 
costumes continuing through 19th cent. German folkwear as well, 
and it really doesn't show from the outside.

Anyway, I doubt peasant women wore pins, but hooks and eyes 
work fine. I also see obvious underlacing implied in many German 
woodcuts showing pregnant women, and I believe it may also be 
in the Holbein drawing of that English family where 1/2 the women 
are pregnant. Basically the laces when used in a center front 
opening are just let out during pregnancy, but you cannot see any 
lacing holes or eyelets, the laces just appear out from under the 
bodice edge. Anyway, several of us have used it and it really is 
invisible. Perhaps because the strip is attached to the lining, the 
outside doesn't pucker or bunch like many laced bodices I have 
seen made in the SCA. Also, if you use more small grommets (not 
eyelets, the good kind you can buy through Laci's or Raiments) or 
handsewn eyelets, you will have less bulk at the lacing hole itself, 
vs. using fewer large Dritz-type grommets.  Anyway, it makes 
total sense when you try it (as long as you line with a good heavy 
fabric and use period-style construction techniques!), and looks 
exactly correct when completed (totally invisible...:-)

Julianna

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Women's Costuming
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 96 00:37:27 EST

brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams ) writes:
> In <4cdbno$gvb at newsbf02.news.aol.com> connect at aol.com (CONNECT) writes:
> >Good My Lady Ciorstan wrote:
> >> and no one has yet ventured a widely accepted
> >>reason for the little tiny gold dots on the side bodice seam of Jane
> >>Seymour in her Holbein portrait.
> >
> >I thought it was generally understood that those are pins.
> >
> Pins, or gold thread tacks are the two most prevalent theories I've
> heard.  Which brings up the more practical question-- if Queen Jane was
> pinned into her bodice (in this particular gown), she must have been 
> limited in her activities. Somehow the idea of wearing a gown that,
> under any type of strain *might* come undone, is less than appealing
> and somewhat impractical.  For a woman whose ceremonial position and
> duties as Queen of England led her to spend a lot of her time seated, I
> suspect that would be fine.  For SCA ladies, who expect to dance,
> flirt, fight and run after both males, females and children as
> required...well, you may see my point. (grin)
> So many of us in the SCA are conscious of their clothes as 'costume',
> and not as clothes.  I wear clothes, not garb or costume. Once I put my
> gown on, I follow Brummel's precepts and, unless disaster strikes,
> that's the end of thinking about my clothes. Pins holding together the
> front panel of my bodice wouldn't be conducive to any kind of mental
> security for the fear of 'thundering gaposis'... YMMV, of course.
> ciorstan

	Respected friends:
	I have worn bodices, both in the SCA and the `real' world, held
together _only_ by pins (no hidden hook&eye backups) for many and many
a long, hard-worked day. They work, they don't poke, and they don't come 
unpinned unexpectedly.
	The trick (of course there's a trick!) is that you _don't use
normal sewing pins_. The minimum is the kind called "Pleating pins".
Better still is the shortest sort of corsage-pin. Best is the kind still
sold, specifically for this purpose, to members of one sect of Old Order
Amish... but good luck finding them!
	If the latter won't hold, you've inserted them wrong (they go
_perpendicular_ to the direction of strain, not parallel) or you fitted
the bodice wrong! 

                                Honour, known societally as
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf; or 
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From wmclean290 at aol.comFri Mar 29 09:44:45 1996 <EB>
Date: 18 Mar 1996 14:40:49 -0500
From: WMclean290 <wmclean290 at aol.com>
To: sca at mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: CLOTHING: Lacing Types???

IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) writes:

>As a bit of backstory, my wife's apprentice and I have been disagreeing for
>some time on the use of grommets and their precursers in making various
>"period" garments.  If the only way I can settle this question is to document
>that I am wrong (and that the metal rings were in fact used throughout the
>period, at least in the centers of culture) then so be it, I'll go digging.
>But I *am* looking for reasonably substantial documentation if I have to
>be in error (I don't mind being wrong if something good comes from it).

The question you ask is a somewhat complicated one, since it actually
encompasses a number of things. There were:

Metal grommets reinforcing holes in leather straps. I know that actual
examples have been found from at least as early as the 14th c., and the
iconographic evidence pushes it considerably earlier. The Museum of London
Dress Accessory book has several examples.

Metal Grommets reinforcing holes in woven fabric. The earliest evidence I
know of these is from paintings late in the 15th c.

Metal rings sewn down to reinforce a hole in fabric. I can't speak to this
one.

Metal rings sewn to fabric so that the lace can run through the ring
without going through a hole in the fabric. Clearly shown in paintings at
least as early as the 15th c.

Will McLean/Galleron de Cressy

From: afn03234 at freenet2.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Metal & Fabric was re: CLOTHING: Lacing Types???
Date: 20 Mar 1996 11:58:31 GMT

The question has turned to the use of metal, either in the form of 
grommet/eyelets or rings to reinforce the fabric around the lacing 
holes.

Based on a quick survey of the prints of 15th-16th Century paintings 
available to me, I find the following:

What appear to be surface mounted lacing rings on the dress of the 
subject in Leonardo's painting of Ginerva de'Benci (c. 1474).  The 
fabric and trim are visible under the rings, and the stitches that 
attach the rings to the surface are visible.

In Rafael's  Portrait of Angolo Doni (c. 1506), the laces at the neck 
closure of his doublet appear to pass through fairly elaborate metal 
mounts.  It is possible that the ties are attached to the mounts, which 
are then in turn attached to the fabric, but that is not the simplest 
solution.

Of these two (that were found in less than 30 min worth of print 
skimming), I had never really noticed that detail of the Doni portrait 
til I was looking for it.  I think that I've seen more examples of the 
surface mounted rings like those in the de'Benci picture, but I'll have 
to pay closer attention as I look at other paintings.

Commentary?
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org

From: mulvanem at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Metal & Fabric was re: CLOTHING: Lacing Types???
Date: 24 Mar 1996 08:22:14 GMT
Organization: Fisher & Paykel Limited.	

Ronald L. Charlotte (afn03234 at freenet2.freenet.ufl.edu) wrote:
: The question has turned to the use of metal, either in the form of 
: grommet/eyelets or rings to reinforce the fabric around the lacing 
: holes.
: Based on a quick survey of the prints of 15th-16th Century paintings 
: available to me, I find the following:
: What appear to be surface mounted lacing rings on the dress of the 
: subject in Leonardo's painting of Ginerva de'Benci (c. 1474).  The 
: fabric and trim are visible under the rings, and the stitches that 
: attach the rings to the surface are visible.
[snippety]
: Commentary?

Certainly, my lord!

I have (bad) photocopies of various elaborate 'lacing rings' from Sweden,
some of which are medieval (according to the text). They are basically
rings, with decoration within and without the circle, such as angels, cats,
lambs etc. The Swedish name for them are 'maljor', don't know if there is
an English term for them. They are very pretty, and they're related to
(again quoting the text) the 'lacing points' that the originator of this 
thread were asking about. 

Full circle....

Muireann ingen Eoghain
Just returned from the Investiture of the Founding Baron and Baroness of
Southron Gaard. 

Date: Fri Mar 29 10:45:06 1996 <EB>
From: Maggie Mulvaney <mulvanem at fp.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Metal & Fabric was re: CLOTHING: Lacing Types???

>I have (bad) photocopies of various elaborate 'lacing rings' from
>Sweden, some of which are medieval (according to the text). They
>are basically rings, with decoration within and without the
>circle, such as angels, cats, lambs etc. The Swedish name for them
>are 'maljor', don't know if there is an English term for them.
>They are very pretty, and they're related to (again quoting the
>text) the 'lacing points' that the originator of this thread were
>asking about.

Since I think it's pretty clear that the originator of this thread
may well have been asking about "eyelet rings", we can now actually
answer her question.  I think that they can be purchased at some
fabric stores.

BTW, while my Svensk is nowhere on par with that of my mundane
ancestry, I believe Maljor simply means "rings", does it not?

Marc Carlson
(SKA Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
Northkeepshire, Ansteorra)

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Metal and Fabric (was re: CLOTHING...)
Date: 20 Mar 1996 14:27:24 -0500

<Al Thaalibi<afn03234 at freenet2.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L.
Charlotte)>>
>Based on a quick survey of the prints of 15th-16th Century
>paintings available to me, I find the following:
>What appear to be surface mounted lacing rings on the dress of 
>the subject in Leonardo's painting of Ginerva de'Benci (c. 1474).
>The fabric and trim are visible under the rings, and the stitches
>that attach the rings to the surface are visible.

The stitches may be visible in *your* copy, but in mine, well, I'd
have decline to use it as evidence against anything :)  Although,
in the black and white photo I found of it, the stitching *almost*
looks like gold metalwork embroidery to cover the hole.

(There's a reason why I rarely use paintings to support anything --
this library doesn't appear to focus on Renaissance or Medieval
Art.)

So, we have the use of such rings in Germany in the late 1500s, and
Italy in the mid1400s.  

>In Rafael's  Portrait of Angolo Doni (c. 1506), the laces at the
>neck closure of his doublet appear to pass through fairly
>elaborate metal mounts.  It is possible that the ties are attached
>to the mounts, which are then in turn attached to the fabric, but
>that is not the simplest solution.

I think the simplest is that these are good sized mounts, riveted
to the fabric that happens to have a hole in the metal mount
(Examples found in Dress Accessories a shade earlier than the
eyelet section).  Where the hole in the fabric actually lies is not
at all clear.

>Of these two (that were found in less than 30 min worth of print 
>skimming),

Ah, yes, but you weren't following the instructions :)  I was told
to look in Flemish and French paintings.  Clearly you were looking
in the Italian.  (BTW, I'm still burrowing through Flemish
paintings and am having no luck)

Does anyone have a clear copy of the The Master of the Life of
Mary's "The Visitation" (c.1460) - specifically the side seam on
the lavenderish/gray dress?

I hit the OED for any clues there.  Grommet, from the 15th century
Anglo French "gromette", now "gourmette" or curb of the Bridle, and
"Gourmer" "to curb" (or restrain).
     1.   A ring or wreath of rope, specifically one consisting of
          a single strand wound three times round.
          a.   One of those used to secure the upper edge of a
               sail to its stay.
          b.   A ring of rope used as a substitute for a rowlock
               in a boat (also applied to an eyelet of metal
               serving the same purpose).
     (used since 1626)
"Grummet"
     Anglo-French derivation for a cabin boy, or ship's groom
     (first used in this context in 1229).

"Eyelet"
     1.   a.   A small round hole in cloth, sailcloth, etc. worked
               like a buttonhole for the passage of a lace, ring
               or rope, also eyelet-hole. (since 1382)

     ...  Eyelet Ring, a small ring of metal, ivory, etc. inserted
          into an eyelet to prevent wearing.  (first mentioned in
          1864, Websters).

"Authenticity is not a matter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
 of money, but of time"           University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
 -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
                                  (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: wmclean290 at aol.com (WMclean290)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: CLOTHING: Lacing Tips???
Date: 21 Mar 1996 17:48:30 -0500
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson) writes:

><Melisend<Mario Nigrovic <cyrus at netzone.com>>>
>>The painting referred to of the bright red cherubim (they look 
>>like someone dipped them in Easter egg dye!) is "Virgin and 
>>Child" also know as "Agnes Sorel" by Jean Fouquet c. 1480. 
>
>That is what I thought.  I found a copy yesterday afternoon, but since
>I saw no sign of metal anything on the picture, and I didn't have a cite
>to work from, I assumed I just found the wrong cherubim surrounded breast.

Yes, that's the one. The rings are visible with a good, large
reproduction, but easy to miss otherwise. Sorry I didn't have the cite
with me when I posted.

An interesting feature is that the rings are sewn to the inside of the
garment, so that the whole arrangement would be invisible when the dress
is laced shut.

Galleron

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: CLOTHING: Lacing Tips???
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 96 02:18:52 EST

IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson) writes:
> Oh, and as a note to Una/Alisaunde?, I found a copy of Antonio del Pollaiuolo
> "Portrait of a woman" but it appears that the only one I can find at the mome
> ends at her armpit level, so if there's any lacing, I can't find it.  I am
> still looking though.
> 
> "Authenticity is not a matter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
>  of money, but of time"           University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
>  -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
	Respected friend:
	It's holding the front of her gown shut. Since she's shown in
profile, I'm not surprised you missed it. The lady who wrote the book got
_very_ up-close-and-personal with the actual paintings- if she saw lacing
rings, they were there. (The illo in _Dress in Italian Painting_ is more
than clear enough for me to agree with her.)

					Alizaunde/Una
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: nit-picky garb question
Date: 7 Jan 1997 15:51:58 -0500
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

Greetings!

While I do not have documentation handy, I know that Master Sylard and Mistress
Mortraeth, who are heavily into research and documentation (so much
that they were invited to staff the museum at Anse-aux-meadows for a week
or so recently) of the Viking age use toggle-and-loop constructions on cloaks
and pouches they wear.

Cheers--
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: nit-picky garb question
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 97 17:03:35 EST

trn0 at aol.com (Trn0) writes:

> Humble Greetings, y'all.
> Does anybody out there know (Or know where I can find) the answer to the
> following:
> When did the toggle-and-loop appear as a clothing fastener?  (i.e., may I
> use it on a late 16th-century cloak?)
> 
> Grace and Peace.
> mundanely but still interested,
> TimN

        Respected friend:
        ...Depending on how close to Arabia you are, you might be able to
use it on a late _14th_ (or earlier!) century item- though probably not
a cloak, then. 
        16th cent. would use round, button-like toggles rather than the
cylindrical ones currently used for most purposes.

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

From: Elaine_Crittenden at dxpressway.com (Elaine Crittenden)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: nit-picky garb question
Date: 08 Jan 1997 15:34:39 GMT
Organization: Digital Xpressway - Dallas, TX

Arnold's book, Patterns of Fashion, for the late 1500's shows "frogs" (aka
toggle and button) as one of the styles of fasteners of the late 1500's. I
think the costume police won't come and get you if you use it as early as
that for English costuming design.

Lete bithe (formerly "of the") Spring, Steppes, Ansteorra (*laine Crittenden)

From: wmclean290 at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Buttons in period
Date: 20 Jan 1997 19:06:35 GMT

In article <slundin-1801972020050001 at annex048.ridgecrest.ca.us>, "Steve
Lundin" <slundin at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> writes:

>A friend has given me several ivory shirt buttons, the flat, four hole kind.
> 
>Did buttons look like this in period or did they always have shanks?

I can't say for later in period, but all the buttons that I know of from
the 15th c. or earlier were either made with shanks or made from fabric.

Galleron

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Buttons in period
Date: 21 Jan 1997 16:23:06 GMT
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Morgan the Unknown (mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca) wrote...

>Buttons were known to the Vikings (the word was knapr) and they showed
>them to the Irish, among others. At least some of them were the four- or
>two-hole kind, and they were used as clothing closures, possibly as shoe
>closures, and as decorative elements.

It is certainly true that buttons were used in the Viking period and culture; 
the ones I have seen were cast bronze with a shank, used with loops on men's 
outer garments in Sweden.  But I am unaware of any 2- or 4-hole buttons used 
as garment closures or as decorative elements in the Viking period and 
culture.  Of what were they made?  And could you please post a source?
**************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman                        Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu                            Frostahlid, Austrriki
          Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
**************************************************************************

From: afn03234 at freenet2.afn.org (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Buttons in period
Date: 24 Jan 1997 13:01:26 GMT

"Steve Lundin" <slundin at owens.ridgecrest.ca.us> wrote:

> I have a couple of questions to ask someone with better resources than I:
> I have seen buttons sewn to trim that was used to edge the neckline and
> hem of a gown.  Does this appear in period and, if so, when?
> A friend has given me several ivory shirt buttons, the flat, four hole kind.
> Did buttons look like this in period or did they always have shanks?

Based on several sources, but primarily _Bone, Antler, Ivory & Horn_ by 
Arthur MacGregor, the only items in a skeletal material that conforms to the 
modern style flat button with holes thru the center was around 4cm across, 
and thus thought to be a little too large for a viable button.  There were 
some late roman era items having a discoid head either made with or riveted 
to a triangular shank parallel to the disk that are considered to be 
"button-and-loop" fasteners, but that's it for definite clothing closures 
made of skeletal materials for the pre-17th century time span.
--
     al Thaalibi ---- An Crosaire, Trimaris
     Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
     afn03234 at afn.org

From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lacing rings for early Italian Ren garb
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 12:36:17 -0700

PAXIMUS wrote:
> Roxdudly wrote:
> 
> >I am hoping that some kind gentle knows where I might get my hands on a
> supply of lacing rings (or eyes as they are sometimes called).  They are
> flat, very small round metal rings used for lacing Italian Ren garb<
> 
> I can only think of going to the nearest clothing store should have some
> there or maybe even trying Tandy Leather they should have eyelets at
> either of these places.

Well, there's usually rings in varied sizes available in a fabric store
(usually in the home furnishing area), however they're made of a hard
plastic. I don't think that's what the lady is looking for. :)

> If you really want to be as period as possible you would go ahead and make
> the lacing holes, like when you make a button hole but a lot smaller:) a
> lot of time and effort I know but the effect when done is beautiful very
> clean lines adhereing to the body which is exactly what the Italians
> wanted. And best of all no shiny grommets or eyelets showing.

I believe that's what the lady wishes to do, however she wants to stitch
the eyelet around a metal reinforcing ring for additional toughitude.
The little eyelets sold in fabric stores tend to pull out under any kind
of strain, and my personal opinion is that the orifice is too small to
both work buttonhole stitch *and* get a lace through the hole. The
larger grommets (medium size on the Dritz package) are less trouble--
however, all of those two-piece interlocking grommets and single-piece
eyelets are inventions from the early 1800's.

I'm at a loss for a metal ring source. What about hitting up a local
armorer to form a set of wire rings around a mandrel, like smaller gauge
chain mail rings? What about washers from the hardware store?

ciorstan
(speculating, having never done this herself...)

From: "Perkins" <lwperkins at snip.net>
Subject: Re: Lacing rings for early Italian Ren garb
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 20 Jul 97 13:05:42 GMT

ROXDUDLEY <roxdudley at aol.com> wrote
> I am hoping that some kind gentle knows where I might get my hands on a
> supply of lacing rings (or eyes as they are sometimes called).  They are
> flat, very small round metal rings used for lacing Italian Ren garb. 

While my suggestion is not absolutely authentic, the result is
gorgeous--there is a woman based in AnTir  thet makes a complete line of
decorated hook-and eye fastenings (or you can just buy the eyes and lace
through them), with late Renaissance patterns on them. They are fairly
large, one inch to one and 1/2 inches, cast in jeweler's bronze or a
pewter-like metal. Her name is Anna the Lost, and you can either mail her a
letter for a xeroxed sheet of styles at 2226H.Walker Valley Rd. Mt. Vernon,
WA 98273,(include a SASE) or try to catch her at Pennsic, she's usually on
the merchant "road" that backs Currie Road. Mostly she does events in the
Seattle/Everett area of the Northwest, but she comes out to Pennsic to
visit friends. She also has oak-leaf cloak fasteners and hooks and eyes
done in Anglo-Saxon and Irish interlace patterns. 

Hope this helps,
--Ester du Bois 

From: Brian Dorion <brian.dorion1 at sympatico.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lacing rings for early Italian Ren garb
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 08:27:50 -0700

ROXDUDLEY wrote:
> I am hoping that some kind gentle knows where I might get my hands on a
> supply of lacing rings (or eyes as they are sometimes called).  They are
> flat, very small round metal rings used for lacing Italian Ren garb.  I
> know I could use modern grommets but I would prefer to stay as authentic
> to period as possible.  Any suggestions or info is most appreciated.
> 
> Regards,
> Julianna
>  (who is still fighting with that darn Italian Ren bodice to get it to fit
> just right!)

Small metal rings are available at most fabric stores that sell drapery 
supplies.  That's where I usually get mine.

Alyce

From: bhw at psyc.nott.ac.uk
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lacing rings for early Italian Ren garb
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 16:39:06 +0100
Organization: Cripps Computing Centre, The University of Nottingham

Brett and Karen Williams wrote:
> I'm at a loss for a metal ring source. What about hitting up a local
> armorer to form a set of wire rings around a mandrel, like smaller gauge
> chain mail rings? What about washers from the hardware store?

Washers is what I use: they seem just about perfect. You can get
various sizes including very small (5mm); they are flat and 
completely closed; you can get them in steel or brass; it is
easy to find them at any standard hardware store; and 
they are very cheap (much cheaper than anything similar sold
as haberdashery).

I've yet to find a drawback.

Caitlin de Courcy

From: Sandra Unger <ssunger at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Lacing rings for early Italian Ren garb
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 19:38:01 -0400

I tend to use the knitting spacing rings for these lacing rings.  These
are exactly the right size and shape and easily avilable from knitting
stores and some crafts stores.  They are plasic and therefore not
"period".  However if you are willing to use reasonable substitutes,
these work wonderfully and are washable.

Ursula

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:28:54 -0500
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson at utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Frogs

At 02:39 AM 10/14/98 -0400, Mel wrote:
>>Anyone out there know how far back (and in European cultures) 'frogs'
>>(the looped cord toggles) go back? I realize toggles in general go back
>>pretty far, but, I'm curious about the styles of 'frogs' we still see
>>today.

>AS I don't know what frogs are, as one in the UK, I wonder if this is an
>UK expression or as US one. Or maybe it is just me. Let alone how far
>back they go :)

A fastener of a button of sorts and a looped cord of some kind.  Think
"hook and eye" but bigger.  They were really popular and decorative on
Napoleonic uniforms.

An early version can be found on the Coppergate shoes from Jorvik (as well
as other places).  I assume that conceptually they go back a lot farther
than that though - but I don't know about 5th C. Ireland (that is, I don't
know if 5th Century Ireland used them or not).

Marc/Diarmaid
I. Marc Carlson
McFarlin Library, University of Tulsa -or- Tulsa Community College West
Campus LRC

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:25:06 -0400
From: "K. E. Reinhart" <keran at hancock.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: frogs

I have a Persian picture from 1550 which shows
"Joseph Enthroned" from a copy of the Falnama
ascribed to Ja'far al-Sadiq of Tabriz or Qazwin
There are 17 male figures in the picture & most
have frogs as robe closures shaped like this

     o----0----o

The book is  A Jeweler's Eye: Islamic Arts of
        the Book from the Vever Collection
        ISBN  0-295-96677-7
Keran Roslin
Sterlynge Vayle
AEthelmearc

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:04:25 -0500
From: <fiondel at fastrans.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Frogs [SCA]

>Like I said, I have some fuzzy idea that they're asian or middle eastern in
>origin, but, I'm not sure. I can see that no one else on the list is (who
>responded, anyway), either, so, it's no big deal. It'll just remind me
>shooting my mouth off is never a good idea, because then one is left
>looking foolish...

I will admit that I can't tell you what the origins of frogs ARE.
I can, however, tell you what the origins are NOT.  Every time
I've gone to an event, and had someone tell me, "Oh, you simply
MUST meet Lord/Lady suchandsuch, they do the *best* Mongolian
(or Chinese, or Tibetan) garb!"   So, I go out of my way to
see, and the first thing I am greeted with is garb awash with
frogs.  Which is a darn shame, since frogs are not period
Asian.  In fact, the use of frogs, so far as I can tell, did not
come about in Asian clothing until the 20th century.  They
used a two-piece "cord button."  One side is a length of silk
cording, folded in half and sew together, and then attached to
the edging (not the fabric of the garment, these edgings were
replaced, to extend the life of the garment).  The other half
was a length of cord, tied into a knot, with the remaining
"ends" sewn onto the edging on the opposite side.

So, I don't know when frogs came around, but I do know that
if you're using them on period Asian garb, it's not really
correct.

Fiondel

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:10:55 -0700
From: <roscelin at ibm.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Frogs [SCA]

> >A fastener of a button of sorts and a looped cord of some kind.  Think
> >"hook and eye" but bigger.  They were really popular and decorative on
> >Napoleonic uniforms.
>
> Like I said, I have some fuzzy idea that they're asian or middle eastern in
> origin, but, I'm not sure. I can see that no one else on the list is (who
> responded, anyway), either, so, it's no big deal. It'll just remind me
> shooting my mouth off is never a good idea, because then one is left
> looking foolish..

Switching book piles.  OK, Costumes, Embroideries and other Textiles put
out by the Topkapi Saray Museum translated by J. M. Rogers shows many
extant garments, including 15th and 16th century with exactly this fastening
method (frequent use).  Both a simple version, think button and loop, but the
button are toggles covered with braid.  A fancier and also common version
with the button and loop with strips of woven braid horizonalily (sp?) from
both button and loop to the opposite side ending with a bit of fringe.

The information on braid covered toggles as buttons comes from Janet Arnold,
"The Pattern of a Caftan, Said to Have Been worn by Selim II (1512-20), from
the Topkapi Sarayi Museum (Accession Number 2/4415), On Display at the
Exhibition of Turkish Art of the Seljuk and Ottoman Periods, at the Victoria
and Albert Museum, November 1967," [pant, pant] _Costume_ 1970 (Nos. 1& 2):
63-66.

The braid is often of different colors braided together.

Haven't looked yet to see how far back this fastening method goes.

Donna Franke
SCA:  Helen Rose Winfield

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 16:47:41 EDT
From: styrbjorn at juno.com (Skip Wilder)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Frogs

>Marc Carlson wrote: An early version can be found on the Coppergate
>shoes from Jorvik (as well

        Webster's Third International Dictionary defines frog as:  3a (2)
 a front fastening for a garment (as a coat, jacket, dress) that is made
usu. of braid in an ornamental looped design with a bar-shaped button or
thick knot on one edge of the opening to fit into a loop on the other.
        Not to engage in unecessary semantics, but the fastening on the
Jorvik shoe would be called a toggle:  1b(1)  any crosspiece attached to
the end of or to a loop in something (as a chain, rope, line, strap,
belt) usu. to prevent slipping, to serve in twisting or tightening, or to
hold something attached
        While a frog is a toggle, not all toggles are frogs.  (Yes, you
can quote me on that! :). )   There is a picture in the dictionary I am
using of a frog, for those who still are unsure of what it looks like.
        They are used to the point of sterotying in Chinese clothing, and
I know I've seen them used on clothing in Chinese historical films, but I
do not know just how far back they go or if the Chinese invented them or
borrowed them from some other culture. Perhaps Maro Polo returned
sporting a fine Chinese jacket with frog buttons?   I have a book on
Vikings that has an artist's rendition of a Middle-Eastern influenced
'Viking', who is wearing a jacket with frog buttons on it.  I have always
been suspicious of the painting since there were no sources given for the
garb, and I don't know enough about Middle-Eastern garb, but I think
frogs didn't appear until much later.

Styrbjorn Ulfhamr

Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:37:25 -0500
From: Roberta R Comstock <froggestow at juno.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: How do you lace a dress?

Anna Troy <Anna.Troy at bibks.uu.se> writes:
>How does one properly lace a mediveal dress? I've seen a version that uses
>a single laceing which seems right but I couldn't figure out how you
>fasten the ends.
>
>Anna de Byxe

I tie a slip knot/half bow in the end so that the loose end is the one
that slides and the knot keeps the lace from slipping back through the
last eyelet.  It unties easily when you pull on the loose end.  (tuck
that end to the inside until you are ready to have it undone.)

Hertha

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:09:47 +1200
From: Peter Grooby <Peter.Grooby at trimble.co.nz>
To: "'sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu'" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: RE: How do you lace a dress?

I suspect you might get more answers from men than women, we tend to do alot
of lacing.

I usually start by tying a half bow at the bottom and then threading the
other end up through the eyelets.

go up on a diagonal in back and sideways horizontally in front. For the top
eyelet go around twice to take the strain of the knot. Then I usually just
pull a loop though the doubled over bit and pull tight, then tuck the lacing
inside to bodice, that seems to hold up fine.

Vitale
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Grooby            pgrooby at trimble.co.nz             -=0 0=-/
Trimble Navigation  http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3069  |_{|}/ /
Christchurch, NZ.                                           _|  \

From: mark shier <mark at medievalwares.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need a source for buttons
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:10:01 -0700
Organization: Islandnet.com in B.C. Canada

Buttons are to be found on my web site- www.medievalwares.com - on the medieval
page.
            Mark

From: "Niall" <niall at uswest.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Need a source for buttons
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:19:46 -0700

Jas Townsend & Son, Inc http://www.jastown.com/ has custom button molds if
that is something of interest.

From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gambeson closure
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2000 17:49:11 -0500
Organization: Help Center (Comp Svcs), Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 10-Nov-100 Re: gambeson closure by
Zebee Johnstone at zip.com. 
> Umm... do you think that people whose lives depending on their gear
> would have fastened their gambesons with buttons that would pop off?
> 
> IF lacing - which they knew about - was better, why would they have
> used buttons?

Simple.  For decoration.

> If they used buttons, buttons must work.  So it's a matter of finding
> out what methods they used to ensure they worked. 

Not necessarily -- if you see buttons, don't assume they serve a
structural purpose.  There are examples of 16th C doubles with a lovely
row of buttons up the front closure, and lacing underneath the plackets.

toodles, margaret 

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	fasteners-msg	Page  of