Title: fencing-msg
Subject: Rapier combat in the SCA.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: rapier, fencing, SCA, combat

fencing-msg - 3/5/10

SCA rapier combat.

NOTE: See also the files: bucklers-msg, p-rapier-msg, r-tourn-ideas-msg, rapier-books-msg, merch-rapier-msg, Silver-1-man.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: JCASE%TUFTS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Date: 26 Apr 90 20:12:00 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Unto the good folk of the Rialto, greetings,

I have for some time now been collecting information of various kinds  for a
report on the status of rapier combat in the Knowne Worlds.  The report is
intended for TI (as well as my various bosses), and I don't want to post too
much right now.  I will, however give a brief summary of what I've learned.

Ansteorra, Outlands, East, Atlantia, An Tir, and Trimaris all have fencing
well established, with each having a Kingdom officer charged with promoting
fencing and a set of rules governing rapier combat.  In most of these kingdoms
fencing is well enough established that even given an antipathetic Crown,
fencing will continue though perhaps not enjoy the supportive environment it
could wish.  Trimairis is emerging from such a state, the East may be heading
into one.

The Rules for Rapier Combat in these kingdoms vary widely.  The variations come
in such areas as permitted weapons, authorized styles, target area, and armor
standards.  All seem to protect the fencer fairly well.

The Midrealm, West, Calontir, and Meridies prohibit fencing at SCA events.
There is some variation in the reasons for this, however the consistent reason
is that these kingdoms feel that fencing is unsafe, and that there is no way
to make it safe.  A part of my report will be devoted to an attempt to refute
this idea, and to debunking some of the myths that have crept in.

Atenveldt and Caid do not have a particular officer or set of rules for Rapier
Combat, nor, however do they outlaw it.  Instead both kingdoms classify
rapier combat in the category of 'light weapons', which in both kingdoms seems
to be primarily shinai.  Both kingdoms inform me that rapier combat is allowed
but is not practiced much.  I am still pursuing research in this area.

The SCA corporate level neither encourages or actively discourages period
rapier combat.  Guiding and police decision #5 allows period rapier combat
provided that the kingdom permits it, that the Marshallate of the Kingdom
has a set of rules in place governing it, and that those rules have been
approved by the Society Marshall.  The decision does further state, however,
that since period fencing was not a part of formal tournament combat in the
Middle Ages, rapier combat may not be a part of formal tournament lists for
royal rank or armigerous titles.

This then is, briefly, what is going on in fencing in the Knowne Worlde.  I,
as ever, welcome additional information and/or corrections, and thank all
those, on and off the Rialto, who have assisted me in the collection of data.

Taran
****************************************************************************
Lord Taran of Windy Hill                                      John H. Case
Barony of Carolingia                                       87 Moreland St.
Kingdom of the East                             Somerville, MA  02145-1441
                              JCASE at tufts.bitnet
****************************************************************************

From: JCASE%TUFTS.BITNET at MITVMA.MIT.EDU 
 
>Atenveldt and Caid do not have a particular officer or set of rules for Rapier 
>Combat, nor, however do they outlaw it.  Instead both kingdoms classify 
>rapier combat in the category of 'light weapons', which in both kingdoms seems 
>to be primarily shinai.  Both kingdoms inform me that rapier combat is allowed 
>but is not practiced much.  I am still pursuing research in this area. 
 
I must beg to differ with you....yes, Atenveldt classes rapier combat 
with Light Weapons in general....but we have had rules for what you term 
fencing for some eight or nine years now....I suggest you contact our Earl Marshall for a copy of such. As for numbers of rapier fighters....the Barony 
of SunDragon has about 15 qualified, Barony of Atenveldt has about 20, Ered
Sul about 5, Tyr Ysgithr about 15...... 
 
        BTW: to any gentle who has a copy of any written protocols on the 
White Scarf orders...PLEASE send me same! We would like to establish it here. 
(Or something similar...we now have a King who began his fighting career in 
light weapons, and LIKES rapier...!!!) 
 
                I remain:   Ioseph of Locksley. OL, OP 
                            Formerly Kingdom Light Weapons Marshall of 
                                Atenveldt 

From: lisch at mentorg.com (Ray Lischner)
Date: 24 Jan 91 00:17:41 GMT
Organization: Mentor Graphics Corp., Beaverton, OR

I have been examining information about historical rapiers, and,
although I am not yet done, I think the data are interesting
enough to post an interim report.

The catalog for the Wallace collection lists 88 rapiers between
1550 and 1650.  There are later rapiers, but I stopped at 1650.
The median blade length is 108cm (42.5in) and the median weight
is 1.28kg (2.8lb).  The shortest rapier in the Wallace collection
is 92cm (36.2in), and the lightest is 0.97kg (2.14lb).

For comparison, the maximum allowable length of an epee blade in
modern fencing is 90cm (35.4in) and the maximum allowable weight
is 0.77kg (1.7lb).  (From "The Rule Book", NY: The Diagram Group, 1983).

This means that modern fencing weapons, which we commonly use
for SCA fencing, are smaller and lighter than even the smallest,
lightest rapiers used before 1650.  I have always thought this
to be the case, but now I have the numbers to back me up.

I leave it to the reader to determine the effect on style and
technique from using a weapon that is too small and too light.
--
Peregrine Payne    (Dragons' Mist, An Tir)
-- 
Ray Lischner        UUCP: {uunet,apollo,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch

From: mjl at rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 25 Jan 91 18:46:48 GMT

lisch at mentorg.com (Ray Lischner) writes:
>I have been examining information about historical rapiers, and,
>although I am not yet done, I think the data are interesting
>enough to post an interim report.

>The catalog for the Wallace collection lists 88 rapiers between
>1550 and 1650.  There are later rapiers, but I stopped at 1650.
>The median blade length is 108cm (42.5in) and the median weight
>is 1.28kg (2.8lb).  The shortest rapier in the Wallace collection
>is 92cm (36.2in), and the lightest is 0.97kg (2.14lb).

>For comparison, the maximum allowable length of an epee blade in
>modern fencing is 90cm (35.4in) and the maximum allowable weight
>is 0.77kg (1.7lb).  (From "The Rule Book", NY: The Diagram Group, 1983).

>This means that modern fencing weapons, which we commonly use
>for SCA fencing, are smaller and lighter than even the smallest,
>lightest rapiers used before 1650.  I have always thought this
>to be the case, but now I have the numbers to back me up.

>I eu`ve it to the reader to determine the effect on style and
>technique from using a weapon that is too small and too light.
>--
>Peregrine Payne    (Dragons' Mist, An Tir)
>-- 
>Ray Lischner        UUCP: {uunet,apollo,decwrl}!mntgfx!lisch

Patri du Chat Gris and I did some research at the Metropolitan Museum a
few years back, measuring and weighing some of their rapiers.  We were going
to go back and do tests for center of mass, which isn't available in any
catalog that I've ever seen.  We never got around to that, but our 
information agrees with what you've found.  I think our average length
was an inch or two shorter, but I'm not sure that's too signifigant, as 
we tried to measure some weapons at the ends of the spectrum, including 
some that were almost broadswords.  One particularly interesting weapon 
we took data from was sort of a proto modern epee.  It had a triangular 
blade with very little edge, a little thicker than the thickest epees you 
see today.  The difference was that it was looong, something like 48" or 
so, if my memory is correct.  I think it weighed in a just less than a 
kilogram, so it was both much longer than the other weapons we examined, and 
much lighter.  I think the tag the Met had on it placed it in the middle of
the 17th century, but I'm not sure.  If you want the data, I can see if I
can find it.  For that matter, I have a book from the Tower of London on
rapiers which includes a lot of useful data, and if there is interest, I
can post (or mail) a full reference to people.  The author is Viese Norman,
who was curator of the armor collection at the Tower for years, and is
very well written and complete.

Our basic conclusion was the same as yours, that modern weapons don't
even begin to approximate period weapons.  And as a result, modern fencing
techniques are superior to period techniques, in general.  Until we can
figure out a way to approximate period weapons, SCA fencing will never
really be very close to what was done in period (That's not to say that
it isn't fun, or that it isn't a different style than modern fencing,
just that it is closer to modern than to period).  Unfortunately the only
way that we could think of to approximate period weapons was to use steel
blades, which we thought was a little too unsafe, even if you welded a ball
on the end of the blade.  Maybe if you wore a bullet proof vest under your
fencing jacket... well, you see the problems, I'm sure.

Matt Larsen
Geoffrey Mathias
mjl at rational.rational.com

From:    Ioseph of Locksley  
To:      All 
26-Jan-91 11:20am
Subject: rapiers

On the subject of rapiers and modern fencing weapons:
  
Yup, you are absolutely correct about weights and handling characteristics of
modern fencing weapons as opposed to real rapiers.
(My real one was made by Kirby Wise-Fraser and is quite long and heavy.)
  
In Atenveldt we try to solve this problem in two ways:
  
We encourage the use of the "Slager" blade (what American Fencing Supply calls
a "rapier" blade") and the AFS "Musketeer" blade (a thicker, heavier epee),
and we strongly discourage parry-by-beat as a technique
that is near-impossible with a real rapier (I -can- do it with my Kirby
blade, but I have stronger wrists than most.)
  
                               -Ioseph of Locksley 
---
 * Origin: <Deus ex Machina-BBS Free Atenveldt! 602-439-8070>  (Opus 1:114/29)

From: wew at naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Date: 25 Jan 91 22:21:30 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ

(Matthew Larsen):
> lisch at mentorg.com (Ray Lischner) writes:
> 
>>I have been examining information about historical rapiers, and,
>>although I am not yet done, I think the data are interesting
>>enough to post an interim report.
> 
> Our basic conclusion was the same as yours, that modern weapons don't
> even begin to approximate period weapons.
> Unfortunately the only
> way that we could think of to approximate period weapons was to use steel
> blades, which we thought was a little too unsafe, even if you welded a ball
> on the end of the blade.  Maybe if you wore a bullet proof vest under your
> fencing jacket... well, you see the problems, I'm sure.

Here in the west, we use a period style blade produced by American
Fencing on the west coast.  Their rapiers approximate period pieces
and are very nice.  They have three different blades to pick from. 
The first is the musketeer blade.  It looks like a wide epee blade. 
It is used for point only action.  Like at epee, it comes with a 
flat tip.  The second blade is their rapier blade.  It is oval in 
cross section and has a rounded tip.  This is their strongest blade. 
I have also heard it called a schlager blade.  The third blade is 
the canalure blade.  I have never seen one, but from what I understand 
it is a very heavy musketeer blade.  We normally only use the rapier 
blades.  They are very safe and I have never seen one break, even on the hardest hits.  A wide variety of hilts and guards are
available.  Most weapons range between 90 and 120 dollars (with a
rapier blade).  I own two of these weapons and am very fond of them.
We do not allow modern fencing weapons to be used in combat.  I
have personally seen two many accidents with them.  Other than 
accidental buises, no major mishaps have occured with the American
Fencing rapiers.

Enjoy!
----------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Wilson             (Bitnet: ucc2wew at nauvm | wilson at nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

From: mjl at rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen)
Date: 28 Jan 91 23:47:32 GMT

wew at naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson) writes:
>From article <mjl.664829208 at rutabaga>, by mjl at rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew
Larsen):
>> lisch at mentorg.com (Ray Lischner) writes:
>> 
>>>I have been examining information about historical rapiers, and,
>>>although I am not yet done, I think the data are interesting
>>>enough to post an interim report.
>> 
>> Our basic conclusion was the same as yours, that modern weapons don't
>> even begin to approximate period weapons.
>> Unfortunately the only
>> way that we could think of to approximate period weapons was to use steel
>> blades, which we thought was a little too unsafe, even if you welded a ball
>> on the end of the blade.  Maybe if you wore a bullet proof vest under your
>> fencing jacket... well, you see the problems, I'm sure.

>Here in the west, we use a period style blade produced by American
>Fencing on the west coast.  Their rapiers approximate period pieces
>and are very nice.  They have three different blades to pick from.
>The first is the musketeer blade.  It looks like a wide epee blade.
>It is used for point only action.  Like at epee, it comes with a
>flat tip.  The second blade is their rapier blade.  It is oval in
>cross section and has a rounded tip.  This is their strongest blade.
>I have also heard it called a schlager blade. ...

When I was in school a few years back, I was part of a group which did stage
combat professionaly, and we switched over to schlager blades when American
Fencers first made them available.  They are indeed much stronger than a
regular epee blade, which is what we used before schlagers were available.
In theatrical combat, most blows are cuts, since they are more visual than
thrusts, particularly for people who aren't familier with fencing.  Anyway,
epees are just not designed for the kind of blade on blade contact that you
get with constant cuts, and we used to break a couple of epees every year.
As far as I recall, we never broke a schlager blade, although we bent one
once (I think we just straightened it out and went on using it).  I used mine
pretty much at least once a week for a few hours for over three years.  But even
though I much prefer schlager blades for stage combat, I would never recommend
using one for SCA fencing.  Stage combat is much more controled, and when a
weapon breaks, one is much more likely to notice it while one can still stop
whatever blow is happening.  I don't think we ever had an injury related to
a weapon breaking.  So while I don't think a schlager blade is likely to break,
I don't want to bet my life or anyone else's on that feeling.

In any case, while schlagers are closer to what real rapiers were like, they
are still too short.  They are no longer than epees.  I will say however, that
the weight is a step in the right direction.  When we changed over, we found
that our styles had to change, since things that worked with epees just could
not be done with a heavier weapon.  I guess that's part of why I feel so 
strongly that we won't really be able to recreate historical techiniques with
modern weapons.

>Bill Wilson             (Bitnet: ucc2wew at nauvm | wilson at nauvax)
>Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

Matt Larsen 
Geoffrey Mathias
mjl at rational.rational.com

From: Doug_McKay at mindlink.UUCP (Doug McKay)
Date: 26 Jan 91 16:38:31 GMT
Organization: MIND LINK! - British Columbia, Canada

Greetings from the Barony of Lion's Gate in An Tir.  Would it be possible for
you to pass along an address and phone number for American Fencing?  I've been
out of the Society for a while and when I left the modern blade vs. buggy whip
fight was still going on.  This appears to be a good solution to the problem.
I did note your comments about the breakage of modern blades.  Granted that
modern fencing blades are not all that sturdy, I've found that the chance of
breakage is minimalized if you have given your fencers a grounding in some
modern fencing techniques.  It, or course, helps if at least one of your period
fencers is (or has been) a modern competitive fencer.  In the two years I was
involved with the fencers in Montengarde we had no injuries caused by broken
blades.

In service to the Dream:
Dougal Mckay of Skye.

From: joltes at husc9.harvard.edu (Richard Joltes)
Date: 28 Jan 91 14:09:59 GMT
Organization: Harvard University Science Center   Cambridge, MA

(Bill Wilson) writes:
>Here in the west, we use a period style blade produced by American
>Fencing on the west coast.  Their rapiers approximate period pieces
>and are very nice.  They have three different blades to pick from.
>The first is the musketeer blade.  It looks like a wide epee blade.
>It is used for point only action.  Like at epee, it comes with a
>flat tip.  The second blade is their rapier blade.  It is oval in
>cross section and has a rounded tip.  This is their strongest blade.
>I have also heard it called a schlager blade.  The third blade is
>the canalure blade.  I have never seen one, but from what I understand
>it is a very heavy musketeer blade.  We normally only use the rapier
>blades.  They are very safe and I have never seen one break, even
>on the hardest hits.  A wide variety of hilts and guards are
>available.  Most weapons range between 90 and 120 dollars (with a
>rapier blade).  I own two of these weapons and am very fond of them.
>We do not allow modern fencing weapons to be used in combat.  I
>have personally seen two many accidents with them.  Other than 
>accidental buises, no major mishaps have occured with the American
>Fencing rapiers.
>----------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Wilson             (Bitnet: ucc2wew at nauvm | wilson at nauvax)
>Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

Oy!

My lady Wife is East Kingdom Fencing Marshal, and she's been fighting the 
opposite battle at this end.  The American Fencing weapons are specifically
regulated (experimental only!) here, while modern foils/epees are used as the
standard weapons.  The problem is that American's blades *are* so stiff and
heavy that it takes a lot of skill to use one for actual combat without doing
harm to the opponent (i.e. bruises, cuts, etc.).  Nearly every instance we've
had of someone trying one of these blades has led to consternation on the part
of their opponent.  Also, American's blades *aren't for live combat*.  They're
made for stage and theatrical use only, with no body contact at all.

To give an idea of comparative stiffness, I recently tried the following
experiment:  using a bathroom scale set near a wall, push a blade (using one
finger only) down onto the center of the scale to cause sufficient flex to
allow the bowed blade to touch the wall.  Read the figure on the scale.  When
I did this (with several examples of each blade type) the figures were:

foil:  2.5# maximum     (making the foil an ideal starter blade)
epee:  8.5# maximum     (probably about all the force you'd want to
concentrate
                        in a .5" spot on your friend's chest) 
A.F.:  18.0#            (IMHO *WAY* too heavy for fencing jackets & heavy
cloth
                        armour only)

The E.K. has, to my knowledge, had no problems with modern blades causing
wounds.  The blades are inspected regularly and any with compound or excessive
bends are removed from use.  Burrs, etc. are removed with steel wool.

I've been involved in this debate since I'm familiar with the behaviour of
steel and how it is worked (and also since I live in the same house and am
therefore part of these debates whether I like it or not :-}).  The EK fencers
are very light in their calibration (even heavy foil hits are discouraged) and
very concerned with control, registering blows so they don't HAVE to be heavy,
etc.  Maybe the West's style is very different.  Maybe you're all wearing 
Kevlar under your plate or something.  I just know that I wouldn't want to be
hit by an American blade while wearing EK standard fencing protection...

And I fight *rattan*!

In Service, 

Lord Alexander "Tam" Cullinan                   joltes at husc9.harvard.edu
Canton of the Towers, East Kingdom 
Squire to Sir Emeric Wendel the Diversified
Ladies' Champion of Carolingia

From: jwtlai at watcgl.waterloo.edu (Jim W Lai)
Date: 28 Jan 91 04:51:26 GMT
Organization: Computer Graphics Laboratory, University of Waterloo, Ontario,
Canada

Ioseph.of.Locksley. at f29.n114.z1.fidonet.org (Ioseph of Locksley) writes:
>In Atenveldt we try to solve this problem [weight and handling discrepancies
>between modern and actual rapiers] in two ways:
>  
>We encourage the use of the "Slager" blade (what American Fencing Supply
calls 
>a "rapier" blade") and the AFS "Musketeer" blade (a thicker, heavier epee), 
>and we strongly discourage parry-by-beat as a technique.  That is
>near-impossible with a real rapier.

As an aside, the proper name is the "Schlager", with a umlaut over the a.
The Schlaeger is suited for cut-and-thrust tactics, as it has a blunt
point.  Amazing what one can find in "The Book of the Sword", by Richard
F. Burton.

From: sinister at ac.dal.ca
Date: 29 Jan 91 00:13:42 GMT

mjl at rutabaga.Rational.COM (Matthew Larsen) writes:
> just that it is closer to modern than to period).  Unfortunately the only
> way that we could think of to approximate period weapons was to use steel
> blades, which we thought was a little too unsafe, even if you welded a ball
> on the end of the blade.  Maybe if you wore a bullet proof vest under your 
> fencing jacket... well, you see the problems, I'm sure. 
>  
> Matt Larsen 
> Geoffrey Mathias 
> mjl at rational.rational.com 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Greetings, M'Lord;
                                Incidentally, the finest fencing
jackets available today (mundanely) are in fact made of
kevlar and wading...  the same balistic composite used in 
bullet-proof vests.  I recommend them highly, as I have seen them
resist a ugly-sharp point of a broken carbon-steel epee during
a full-bore fleche attack. I was *very* relieved my opponent wore
kevlar.  I, incidentally, switched to composite blades.
 
                Corman

  Corman Piero Michelletto          |    Michel Vaillancourt
   Barony of Ruantallan             |    Halifax, Nova Scotia
    East Kingdom                    |    Canada!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: wew at naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Date: 29 Jan 91 16:46:53 GMT
Organization: Northern Arizona University, Flagstaff AZ

From article <5502 at husc6.harvard.edu>, by joltes at husc9.harvard.edu (Richard Joltes):    
> foil:  2.5# maximum   (making the foil an ideal starter blade) 
> epee:  8.5# maximum   (probably about all the force you'd want to 
concentrate 
>                       in a .5" spot on your friend's chest)  
> A.F.:  18.0#          (IMHO *WAY* too heavy for fencing jackets & heavy
cloth
>                       armour only)

Interesting, but what has this to do with "period" fencing.  If you are
going to do period fencing, then a period style weapon should be used.
We have had no injuries from using the American Fencing weapons except
for minor bruises.  No worse than when I would fence competition Epee.
We are very stringent in our control and we teach how to fight
"correctly".  I have seen way too many brocken blades when using
olympic style fencing equipment for Rapier work.  I have even fought
in a light blouse and not been bruised or injured.
 
> Maybe you're all wearing 
> Kevlar under your plate or something.  I just know that I wouldn't want to be
> hit by an American blade while wearing EK standard fencing protection...
> 
> And I fight *rattan*!

We do not wear any special type of armor.  We just know how to fight
correctly.  We teach not to be too heavy with our blows and we KNOW
how to control combat.  The only injuries I have taken were falling
off of an embankment and running into a light post.  
---------------------------------------------------------------- 
Bill Wilson             (Bitnet: ucc2wew at nauvm | wilson at nauvax) 
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011 

From: S885775%CCNODE at vaxf.colorado.EDU
Date: 29 Jan 91 18:46:00 GMT
Organization: The Internet

Lord Alexander writes of poundages necessary to bend different types of
fencing blades (foil, epee, schlager): 
        Foils bending how much at 2.5#? 2", 4"?? AFS also has available for
sale a poundage gauge that can be used to demonstrate what 2.5# (or whatever
you set it at) actually feels like. It proves to be quite surprising to most
people how little force is actually involved. It is also hard to argue with!

        As far as how much poundage it takes to bend thicker blades, such
as epee and schlager, That is precisely why you don't attempt to produce 3 and
4 inch bends with an epee or musketeer on someone's chest! The (approximate) 2.5 pounds necessary to puncture skin through clothing is what should be 
reproduced in a successful attack with ANY modern fencing weapon. Fencers should
not try to reproduce a foil-size bend with a musketeer (extremely difficult in
and of itself!). A Don once told me that about 70% of blows you call on yourself
should be called visually (seeing that the blow landed cleanly and got a decent
bend-using foil), NOT ignored because you didn't "feel" it. Again, the 2.5#
approximation is VERY light, and, in the "heat" of a fight, adrenaline-armour 
can mask a good shot.
 
        All of this is, of course, IMHO and from the standpoint of one who
learnlearned to fence in Ansteorra and fences occaisionally in the Outlands.

                              Ld. Nasir
                                                Squire to Sir Haroun
                                                Kingdom of the Outlands

From: mcochran at isis.cs.du.edu (Mark A. Cochran)
Date: 19 Sep 91 21:30:48 GMT
Organization: Nyx, Public Access Unix (sponsored by U. of Denver Math/CS dept.)

sharons at juliet.ll.mit.EDU writes:
>My Lord Cormanno,
>       Although I will say that there are fencing salles in neighborhoods
>that make bullet proof gear seem like a wise investment.... The use of 
>Kevlar in modern fencing jackets and knickers is most definitely not
>for bullet proofing!  Woven kevlar (which is not what the police 
>use in their vests) is wonderfull at preventing bruises and such. 
>It is definitely somewhat modern in appearance so probably on that ground
>would not be the best choice for SCA use, but it is nice!

It is true that kevlar by itself has a poor appearance for SCA useage, but
it is relatively simple to cover this with more appropraite appearing garb.
Since we in the Outlands do not disallow such moves as the fleche, a number
of our fencers have been using kevlar. I wear a kevlar jacket under a
period doublet, as do several others. And it can certainly pay off.
At a recent tourney, a relatively new fighter performed a fleche with a
noticable lack of control. His epee' snapped, and (for the first time in 8
years of SCA fencing) I saw somebody actually get hit with a broken blade.
Thanks to the kevlar, there was no wound at all. The blade was stoppped
cold.
It's expensive, but I highky recommend it for any serious fencer.

Yours in service,
Edward Tremaine
Aarquelle, Outlands

From: KATDAVB at YALEVM.BITNET (Ottar Eriksson)
Date: 12 Feb 91 13:50:48 GMT
Organization: The Internet

In response to the recent commentary by Taran, Danulf and Vis on my posting
of a few days past:
1)  My recollection of the situation in the East was that the fencers decided
to use Don/Dona because the Ansteorrans already were using those titles.  They
were advised from many sides that this probably would not fly, as the title
was reserved to the Orders of Chivalry.  It started being used anyways, which
to a great extent was what prompted the need for the Laurel ruling.  Sadly,
the final decision went against the fencers.  It would have been better if
an appeal had been sent to Laurel before the title was put into use.  Alas.
Out of historical interest, can anyone relate the story of how all this got
started in Ansteorra?
2)  Don has been on the list of alternate titles acceptable for use in the
SCA as an equivalent of knight for some years.  I know of at least 3 knights
with Spanish personae who use this, and I am sure there are others.  While
the list does not explicitly preclude other usages, Corpora does state that
all alternative usages must be approved by Laurel.  The current list has a
number of flaws and omissions, which is why I have been charged with the task
of the Alternate Titles Project to generate a new, more accurate, list.
3)  Recent rulings from Laurel King of Arms indicate that the use of titles,
such as Master Archer (which was returned a few months ago) as suffixes to
one's name, is not allowed.

Right now there is no consistent distinction in the SCA
between 'titles of honour' and forms of address, which causes this rather
silly semantic problem.  This is something I am addressing as part of the
A.T. project.  Hopefully there will be a solution satisfactory to all.

      I am considering that many foreign titles may have multiple English
equivalents, just as a single English title may have more than one equal in
another tongue.  For example, the title 'Jarl', as used in Viking-age
Scandinavia, was any great lord.  This is equivalent to the High Middle Ages
titles Viscount, Count, Marquis, Duke, and maybe even Baron.  The case of
Don/Dona is complicated by politics (which I intend to rise above) and the
fact that it was previously reserved.  There is also the small problem that
the SCA use of Lord/Lady is completely wrong, as far as period practice is
concerned.  This makes determining equivalents quite a nasty job.
Gotta run.  Care well, all. 

From: nexus at cgdisis.cgd.ucar.edu (Jeff Berry)
Date: 12 Feb 91 19:48:31 GMT
Organization: Climate and Global Dynamics Division/NCAR, Boulder, CO

KATDAVB at YALEVM.BITNET (Ottar Eriksson) writes:
>In response to the recent commentary by Taran, Danulf and Vis on my posting
>of a few days past:
>Out of historical interest, can anyone relate the story of how all this got
>started in Ansteorra?

I am surprised that no Ansteorran has spoken up before now on this subject,
come on somebody!

But, just to add to the data mix... In the Outlands, by treaty with Ansteorra,
the order of the Defenders of the White Scarf was founded and it's members have
the right by (I believe) Kingdom Law (as in, in the official printed declaration
of the Order) to style themselves Don/Dona.  Could someone please refresh my
memory on the much referenced 'Laurel Ruling'?  It has been a while since I
last perused that document....

badger                                      Don Alexandre Lerot d'Avigne
Jeff Berry                                  Caer Galen, Outlands
                                        Premier Defender of the White Scarf of
                                                the Outlands
               nexus at ncar.ucar.edu

From: dawyd at dorsai.com (David Gurzynski)
Date: 21 Feb 91 20:37:49 GMT
Organization: The Dorsai Diplomatic Mission

vis at pro-angmar.UUCP (Tom Courtney) writes:
> I think Ottar Ericksson has claimed that the fencers merely did not think
> when they chose the name Don for their title of excellence. Unfortunately,
> I think this position is false. Don Fernando Salazar y Perez was an Eastern
> knight; when Eastern fencers (other than Sir Patri, who knew better)
> suggested Don as a title they were told by lots of people that the heralds
> would inevitably not allow this usage because Don was a cognate for knight
> with precedence in the SCA; the fencers decided to ignore history and
> reason, and now are in a small mess.
> 
> Tom Courtney
> aka Vissevald Selkirksson

        I don't think they are in a mess.  They will just use the term "Don 
of Fence" or "Dona of Fence".  Most people in the East, when fencing began 
to make its comeback, don't remember Don Fernando anyway,  I know that is 
not an excuse to misuse a title, but for most he is ancient history.
=============================================================================
David Gurzynski                                            Baron Dawyd z Gury
Brooklyn NY                                 Crown Province of Ostgardr / East
Usenet: dawyd at dorsai.com
    Or if all else fails:      UUCP: ...!rutgers!newport!666!David.Gurzynski
                               ARPA: David.Gurzynski at f666.n107.z1.FIDONET.ORG

From: grimkirk at amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider)
Date: 10 Jul 91 06:59:23 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Christian,
     After spending this last weekend in Minneapolis at a Rapier demo for the
Earl Marshall (Duke Sir Palymar of the Two Baronies), I am not sure that the
time for Midrealm Rapier combat is too far off (Read: Fingers Crossed!). If
you and your fencing pals are already behind as many of us in the Chicago area
are well back up to speed to prepare for the advent of Rapier combat in the
Midrealm. The only questions are when and what rules.... The majority of the
active fencers of late are Ansteorran-Trained and obviously prefer those
rules. Personally, I was trained in Atenveldt/Outlands and significantly
prefer those rules (which are variants of the Ansteorran rules but with some
of the items that gave the impression of being unsafe removed).

     As for using blunted replica rapiers.... Not around me, or anyone I know.
So far, the standard for the rapier weapons convention as I have been told to
date, IS going to be the modern Epee. That not being available, the
replacement weapon would most likely be a modern Foil. Some rapier fighters in
other Kingdoms (like Outlands) are advocating the use of a weapon known as a
"Schlager" (sic?) blade. Having never seen this weapon, I cannot tell you
first hand about it, but two (2) Kingdom Earl Marshalls have said that this
new weapon is rather popular in their Kingdoms, however at least one of them
has determined that this weapon is too rigid and inflexible for the armoring
standards as they are now interpreted for rapier combat. Therefore, "Blunted
Replica Rapiers" would most likely (and in my book, most definitely) be out of
the question.

     Sorry to rain on your parade. But if you (or anyone else) has any
questions regarding Rapier combat in the Midrealm, please feel free to respond
via Internet or by phone  at  (312) 751-2180 after 6pm. Or contact Baron Alfred
of Chester (aka C. Allen Reed), Province of Tre-Girt-Sea (Chicago, IL) via the
Seneschal of that group.

Yours in Service to the Dream.....

Lord Grimkirk ap Greymoor
(aka Michael Schneider)

aka Lord Grimkirk       aka Cmdr Michael Schneider      Mike Schneider
Shire of Rokkehealdan       USS Magellan NCC-1773       UFP Conventions, Inc.
Chicago, IL                                             "STARBASE NOVA"

From: wew at naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Date: 15 Jul 91 16:01:27 GMT

From article <grimkirk.5075 at amiganet.chi.il.us>, by grimkirk at amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider):
> ...Some rapier fighters in
> other Kingdoms (like Outlands) are advocating the use of a weapon known as a
> "Schlager" (sic?) blade. Having never seen this weapon, I cannot tell you
> first hand about it, but two (2) Kingdom Earl Marshalls have said that this
> new weapon is rather popular in their Kingdoms, however at least one of them
> has determined that this weapon is too rigid and inflexible for the armoring
> standards as they are now interpreted for rapier combat. Therefore, "Blunted
> Replica Rapiers" would most likely (and in my book, most definitely) be out of
> the question.

I am from Ered Sul and we use the schlager type blades.  Epees and foils
are outlawed here.  The reason?  They break too easily.  With the heavier
schlager blades, you get a better feel for period combat.  We have never
had more than simple bruises and no-one to my knowledge in the Kingdom
has been hurt worse than that.  The hard suiters normally get bashed up
worse than the rapier fighters do.  The main thing to realize is that
it takes practise and training to use the weapons correctly.  No bashing,
just good cuts and draws, and point thrusts.  

Please no bashing, just giving this info for your edification on how
one kingdom handles rapier fighting.  This topic has gone around the
mill before.

From: grimkirk at amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider)
Date: 24 Jul 91 09:02:51 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Now for the news you've all been waiting for....

It seems that some individuals (one of which has a hat) has been motivating
to get fencing started within the Middle Kingdom. It also appears that this
individual (or individuals) have an opponent. Not that the opponent opposes
the implementation of Fencing as a whole, but that Ansteorran rules are the
issue, and that some other or variant thereof should be used instead of the
Ansteorran rules themselves.

At the Nordskogen Warlord tourney, Baron Don Robin of Gilwell of Ansteorra was
invited to perform before the Middle Kingdom Earl Marshal as evidence of the
safety of Fencing as a sport. Having done so, many are of the impression that
his Grace, Duke Sir Palymar of the Two Baronies was pleased enough to consider
the issue. Only time will tell. Simple Day (Indianapolis, IN) is this weekend,
and a demo is scheduled for the benefit of the Crown. God knows what will
happen. Stay tuned to this dragon channel........

aka Lord Grimkirk       aka Cmdr Mike Schneider         Mike Schneider
Society at Large            USS Magellan NCC-1773       UFP Conventions, Inc.
Chicago, IL                                             "STARBASE NOVA"
Once a King, always     Remember: No matter where       TREK til you Drop!
a King, but once a                you go.........       The only Fan run
Knight is enough!                 There you are.        TREK Con in town!n!

From: grimkirk at amiganet.chi.il.us (Mike Schneider)
Date: 8 Aug 91 07:51:15 GMT
Organization: Amiga Network Information Systems

Unto M'Lady Kaela Orion, comes greetings from his Lordship,
Grimkirk ap Greymoor (a once famous, if not infamous Outlands fencer....)

     M'Lady -

        As I understand from the War Fencing Marshall, there shall be several
tournaments during the week prior to the war. I believe that the East Kingdom
will be sponsoring a tourney on Tuesday the 13th, and Anstoerra will be
holding a tourney on Thursday, the 15th, rules according to the respective
kingdoms. Per my request, since I am not arriving until Wednesday, the War
Marshall is attempting to put together another tourney for later in the week
(read: after Thursday) but no promises. Both Kingdoms conventions DO support
draw cuts. East Kingdom prohibits running attacks. Ansteorra advocates the
THROWING OF CLOAKS AT THE OPPONENT WHILE ATTACKING. Both kingdoms permit the
use of both Epee and Foil equipment.

        Be advised, the East kingdom has the laxest conventions on armoring,
Ansteorra, the hardest. Best bet is to insure that no skin is visible or can
be gotten to during armor inspection in order to pass (I know this since I
just underwent an armor inspection by Don Tivar Moondragon two weeks ago for a
demonstration before the Midrealm Crown...whew!) Sew up any holes in your
gloves, should you be using moder fencing gloves (they usually have holes in
them to accomodate the electric blades...)

        Otherwise, your regular gear should pass. Just make sure that your
coif covers ALL of your head, including your neck under your bib. Oh yeah,
East allows the use of the open hand to parry the offensive HAND of the
aggressor, which means THEY CAN TOUCH YOU! This is limited to the offensive
weapon hand only and grasping is prohibited (East Kingdom).

        At any rate, I and my students look forward to meeting and crossing
swords with you at the war. Should you need further information, feel free to
call me  at  (312) 368-7575 [M-F 9-5].

        In service to the dream,

        Lord Grimkirk ap Greymoor
        AoA, OPF, MOUSE

        I don't believe thrusting dagger has been implemented in Outlands
since I left, however, be advised that both the East and Ansteorra use them.
And SCHLAGER blades are RIGHT OUT! Period.

aka Lord Grimkirk       aka Cmdr Mike Schneider         Mike Schneider
Society at Large            USS Magellan NCC-1773       UFP Conventions, Inc.
Chicago, IL                                             "STARBASE NOVA"
Once a King, always     Remember: No matter where       TREK til you Drop!
a King, but once a                you go.........       The only Fan run
Knight is enough!                 There you are.        TREK Con in town!n!

Thorfinn Halfblind
Mark A. Cochran
Fencing questions
_21 Sep 91 13:16:50_ 

Which brings me to a novel idea for a fencing tournement.
 
In much of Christendom during the age of fencing, it was illegal to kill a man in a duel.  By killing your opponent, you have, in effect, lost.
 
I propose a tournement wherin the objective is not to kill your opponent, but rather, to force him to yeild.  Each man has three ribbons.  Each time you lose a duel, you give your opponent a ribbon.  If you are killed, you give your opponent all of your ribbons -- and report to the Kings Guard the name and last location of this heinous murderer. If you have only one ribbon left, you may sacrifice it to join the guard.
 
The Guard may kill without penalty.  Guardsmen do not carry ribbons 
-- killing a Guardsman will only put him off your trail for one hour, 
until his Twin Brother hears of the news, and joins the Guard for the family honor.
 
If you have not killed, and the Guard catches the duellists in the act, both duellists lose a ribbon.  If you have killed, the Guard will hunt you down without mercy.

The objective of the tournement is to gather the most ribbons by the final close of the tournement.  (Typically, this would be a 24 to 48 ìhour tournement.)
 
All duellists are required to have a second on hand.  If fighting at night, you must have a lightsource that won't endanger the campground.
Witnesses of the duel are encouraged to call for the Guard if they witness a murder.
 
In other words, be a gentleman and force your opponent to yeild to you rather than kill him like an unmannered lout or <insert nationality ìof choice>.  At the final awards ceremony, the Guards are to present a list of all the felons they did detain to the King.
 
Thorfinn Halfblind

From: midzor at tramp.Colorado.EDU (~Parador Moon~)
Date: 9 Dec 91 18:22:58 GMT
Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder

   About the masks, I thought I'd tell you a few things our fencers have
done to make it more "period looking." Some have drawn faces on the mask\
(very good, too) and cover the rest with cloth (such as some ladies covered
their hair).  One person attatched a cavalier hat to the mask (he just looked
like he had a slightly large head).  Many people put period trim, celtic
designs, etc on the rim and back.

   Overall, most fencers look very period (we take much pride in our outfits),
and a few things stick out as modern because of safety.  Heavy (I do both)
is also guilty of this.  I have also seen many road signs as shields, rubber
tubing around the edges of shields, etc.  Also, rattan wrapped in duct tape
is a modern looking as a mask, no matter what you try to do to it.

   A final note: Fencers try *very* hard to look as period as possible.
A mask is about the worst "modern" looking object out there.  Yet when
I go fight heavy, I always see jeans, Jam shorts, road sign shields,
hockey gloves, football padding, etc.  Because of the many flames fencers
get about "being period," I think we tend to look a heck of a lot more
period on the field than most heavies.

(Many apologies to those wonderful gentles who have period looking armour 
and are only limited by safety in their appearance.)

   The point is, all aspects of SCA make consessions to safety. And, sometimes,
these consessions look "unperiod."  But many people are quite creative in
trying to make unperiod objects look more period.  So instead of harping
about "this isn't period looking and that is more unperiod looking than this
other thing," we should all acknowledge the limits of safety and find better
ways of keeping appearances in the medieval theme as best as possible.

                                                       In service,
                                                       Kaela

From: mittle at watson.ibm.com (Josh Mittleman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: IBM T. J. Watson Research

Greetings from Arval!

In his 21 December letter to the College of Arms, Master Da'ud ibn Auda,
Laurel King of Arms, announced a re-definition of Don and Donna as
equivalent to Lord and Lady.  

A little background.  Corpora strictly forbids the use of any title of rank
or form of address which has not specifically been accepted for use by the
Board of Directors or the College of Arms.  nly the BoD can define a new
category of title.  The College of Arms has only one power in this regard:
Defining equivalents in other languages to the standard English titles and
forms of address.  Thus, the College considers questions like "What is the
proper Arabic equivalent of Duke?"  The College cannot define any usage of
a title other than one of those listed in the appendix to Corpora.

Heretofore, "Don" and "Donna" were defined as the Spanish and Portuguese
equivalents of "Sir", i.e., the form of address for a Knight.  A proposal
was presented to re-define them as equivalent to "Lord" and "Lady", and
thus make them available for anyone who has received an AoA or
higher-ranking armigerous award.  Evidence was presented that this would be
more consistent with medieval usage than the existing equivalence.  Master
Da'ud discussed some general issues of how titles should be defined, and
then wrote: 

  Based on the historical usage in the sometimes voluminous historical
  documentation presented by the commenters, I believe that the restriction
  of the forms of address "Don" and "Donna" to the chivalry is inappropriate.
  While there was some feeling that these forms of address could (and should)
  be restricted to the SCA peerages, the bulk of the historical evidence
  indicated that "Don" and "Donna" were throughout (but more especially in
  later) our period of study the actual equivalents of "Lord" and "Lady".  As
  a consequence, I am opening the use of the alternate forms of address "Don"
  and "Donna" to anyone in the SCA with an AoA (or higher rank), as Spanish
  equivalents to Lord and Lady along with the already permissable Senor and
  Senora.  

  (The correct form of address for Knights, based on the historical
  documentation presented, would appear to be "Caballero" or "Don Caballero"
  (the liast would be similar, but not exactly equivalent, to the English
  form of address "Sir Knight).  I am recommending these forms of address be
  added to the Spanish Alternate Titles List as equivalents for "Sir".)

The practical effect of this ruling is that ANYONE with an AoA may now use
these forms of address.  This includes the companions of the grant
armigerous fencing orders of Ansteorra and the Outlands, but is not
reserved to them.  Only the BoD can reserve a title to that order, and no
request that it do so has been presented.
===========================================================================
Arval Benicoeur, Brigantia Principal Herald              Josh Mittleman
...but only for another 2 days                           156 Grand St.
mittle at watson.ibm.com                                    Croton, NY 10520

Subject: New Fencing Book
Date: Fri, 12 Jun 98 10:25:57 MST
From: rmhowe <magnusm@ncsu.edu>
To: Merryrose <atlantia@atlantia.sca.org>

I haven't seen it but this is in the current Barnes and Noble
catalog:

SECRETS OF THE SWORD, by Baron Cesar de Bazancourt.

Description: Is fencing an art form or an excercise in self defense?
Fencing afficianados will enjoy this series of dueling conversations
between sophisticated French gentlemen, a classicist vs. a realist.
An informative book on the French style of fencing. B&W Illustrations.
(LPC) 246pp. PB  Catalog item # B171930 published at $19.95
Catalog price is $15.96.   Catalog Key J34R 6000  1-800-843-2663
1 Pond Rd. Rockleigh, NJ 07647.

Magnus

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 09:52:53 -0600
From: gtaylor <gtaylor@lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
To: <ansteorra@ansteorra.org>

My advice is not to buy a Triplette SCA starter set unless you have lots of
money (don't see $200.00 as an investment), hardly ever fight, or absolutely no
where to turn for help with making something that actually looks vaguely period
(which this tunic does not).  Here's what Triplette says about it:

SCA LIGHT WEAPONS FIGHTER STARTER SETS are intended to get the beginning fighter out on the field as quickly and as cheaply as possible. I'd like to think that no one who buys a starter set will have any of it left in a year, except for the mask. You really ought to have improved your own gear, and given away these pieces to a newcomer.

If the company is saying that they hope you have none of it left in a year,
except for the mask, this is NOT a ringing endorsement for its use/popularity in
the SCA (particularly in this kingdom).  If someone does buy and use it, then
fine...we're happy to have them fighting with us.  But I generally regret it
greatly when some new person invests in this kit, for I believe that someone's
not going to quickly dump a tunic on which they've spent good money.

Also...don't go nuts and buy their ugly, big-salad-bowl "Maximum hand
protection" R7, never-seen-anywhere-in history, theatrical rapier.  The R8 is
much better and much more accepted within in the rapier community.   In fact,
you might want to consider initially buying the R8 rather than a modern epee
bowl-based weapon...

Dona Isobel 

> >I will be throwing myself into the LF (light Fighting)
> >this year with a passion as I have swwn and love the
> >art. I need help making a doublet.is there a pattern
> >any where that i can use? I have athe rules and such,
> >but a pattern would help my lady a lot!otherwise for
> >my first one I may order the starter set from
> >Tripletts..
> >
> >All help is appreciated,
> >Galiwyn Varrianes
> >Northkeep, Ansteorra

From: ceallach@dwarfworks.com (Ceallach Mac Donal)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Information for Rapier Fighters
Date: 1 Oct 2004 09:33:18 -0700

I have put together some web pages with technical information about
the various blades authorized for use in the SCA that are currently
commercially available along with price comparisons of the blades
themselves.

I have taken pictures of a variety of blades as I have come across
them and added what opinions I have been able to get from various SCA
rapier fighters. All of the data is up to date as of  September 30,
2004.

These pages are available at http://kelly.dwarfworks.com/Blades
If anyone has any additional technical information, or has an opinion
to add that I do not currently have annotated please contact me and
let me know.

Most especially, I do not have any information on the specs of the
Triplette Rapier (T03) nor have I been able to get information on the
authorization of the Alchem non-SafeFlex schlager/rapier.

YiS
Ceallach Mac Donal of Bryn Gwlad in Ansteorra

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	fencing-msg	 of