rapier-armor-msg - 3/5/10

Construction of armor for rapier combat in the SCA.

NOTE: See also the files: Rapier-Armor-art, merch-rapier-msg, Styles-Swrdpl-art, rapier-books-msg, fencing-art, fencing-msg, p-rapier-msg, Hst-SCA-Fence-art.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:55:52 -0600
From: "Chiara" <chiara at io.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

There is a pattern that many have used that is commercial but it has the
right idea. The number changes from time to time but the design is the same
to this day. The directions are simple, the results perfect. It is the male
drum major's uniform.

Here are a few others:
http://www.reddawn.net/costume/doublet.htm
http://www.hightower.demon.co.uk/patterns.htm
http://www.costumes.org/pages/pattern_links.htm
http://www.geocities.com/~rynegade/costume/begin3.htm
http://www.gbacg.org/Patterns/index.html

Franchesca Havas
McKinney, Texas


Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 12:06:00 -0600
From: "Alisstassia"<alisstassia at yahoo.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!

<<< Ok in the Museum Replicas Limited, or www.museumreplicas.com, they have
rapier clothing.  Vest runs $69, Shirt runs $49, Pants runs $39.  As for
weapons that I'll have to hunt around my old catologs to find them.
Hopefully this prices might be a little more reasonable.  Aurore >>>

If you are looking for just a pattern for doublets the one I have used to
make my Lord's doublet is Dashing Doublets by Fantasy Fashions made with 3
layers of judy linen and a few alterations.  You will need to extend the
collar and the front so that it overlaps...Velcro it in place so that it
remains tight.

Also, you can purchase a complete fighters outfit at castlegardencreations
(http://www.castlegardencreations.com)  The shirt and the doublet (brocade
or twill) is $205 plus shipping.   The twill slops are $45 for a total of
$250 for the entire period outfit that is SCA acceptable.

~Alisstassia


Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 16:04:54 -0800
From: Chris Zakes <moondrgn at austin.rr.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

<<< Ok in the Museum Replicas Limited, or www.museumreplicas.com, they have
rapier clothing.  Vest runs $69, Shirt runs $49, Pants runs $39.  As for
weapons that I'll have to hunt around my old catologs to find them.
Hopefully this prices might be a little more reasonable.  Aurore >>>

AAGGHH!!! NO! NO! *Don't* buy the Museum Replicas stuff.

First, it's not SCA-legal. Second, it's not particularly period-looking.
Third, up until a year or so ago they claimed that it *was* SCA-legal, even
after being told that it wasn't, and being asked nicely to stop (I think
the Society Marshal had to threaten to sue them to make them stop their
deceptive advertising.)

I'd far rather see someone in a Triplette doublet than wasting their money
on that MR stuff. At least Triplette is willing to work with the SCA.
Alternatively, post a query to the Rialto or wait until Gulf War and go
shopping for doublet-merchants.

        -Tivar Moondragon
                Ansteorra


Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 11:03:26 -0600
From: gtaylor <gtaylor at lonestar.jpl.utsa.edu>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

Thanks Aurore for the input.  Museum Replicas (MR)  has some nice things
that everyone wants to buy (I use a buckler from them).  Regarding armor for
rapier combat, however, there's a difference between rapier armor and rapier
clothing.  Museum replicas used to claim that their
clothing "provided the requisite protection" for SCA rapier use, but they do
not.  As non-armor, they are fine for starters...but not as armor.

As an addendum to my prior post:  a type of rapier armor -can- be worn under
the MR clothing, however...it's a "shell" of at least 3 layers of Judy's                                       
linen or four layers of "Trigger" (or equivalent that will pass a punch
test) with coverage as described in the rapier rules of
Ansteorra.  Modern fencing vests can also be worn underneath, if they are
not one-handed (some modern vests provide more protection on one side than
the other, or neglect protection on the back...these are not acceptable) and
can still pass an Ansteorran punch test.  If someone
does buy the Triplette tunic, I advise getting it in white, so that it can
be hidden by a "pouffy white shirt."  Because it and modern fencing jackets
sleeves are long, however, these jackets/tunics are hotter than needed in
Ansteorra...our armor has to extend only partially down
the upper inner arm, leaving the rest of the arm to be covered by lighter
material.

Isobel


Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Light fighting armor help!
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2002 14:53:24 -0800
From: "Mr. and Mrs. Fryday"<fryday at swbell.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

All of the web sites out there are great if you have the money. My advice
would be to get an old duster to cut into your own pattern. You can make a
garment with long or short sleeves from the same pattern by folding the
material to your preferred length. If you don't have a duster try picking up
a modern vest pattern and altering it to meet SCA requirements. They don't
cost much and are easy to put together. It would be more cost effective if
you can make your armor yourself but there may be a sewing guild near you
that would offer some assistance. They may even have patterns you could use.

    I spent too much to get armor made, (Armor that I rarely wear.) I found
that a modern fencing jacket, under garb works well for a person just
starting out. As you learn more and have time you can make your armor. Try
to start out with the lightest armor that will pass a punch test. The summer
can get real hot and can cause heat injuries. After a while you may want to
get heavier equipment for winter.

    Lastly, try to focus on function rather than form. If your armor looks
great but is hard to move in you'll wind up tossing it. Remember that being
safe is the most important part of playing the game so make sure you get
some help with any armor you make yourself. Talk to the regional rapier
marshal or other official and take notes!

Command the Blade!,
Gassion de Beaumarchais


From: "Stephanie Wilson" <imstephw at swbell.net>
Date: June 16, 2009 10:58:11 AM CDT
To: <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

<<< Since trigger is almost non available anymore, what can you recommend that
would pass armor inspection that is actually breathable and more conducive
to the heat???(note key word "breathable"? ;-)

Caitrin >>>

Linen, as tough or tougher than trigger, breathable and period to boot.  You
aren't likely to find it at your local fabric store, but easily found
online.  Try http://fabric-store.com/
Look at the density of the weave as well as the weight, since it will affect
the puncture resistance.

Alexis

p.s. as an extra bonus, it doesn't get as funky as cotton does with all the
repeated sweat/wash cycles that armor is subjected to.
==========

I am a strong advocate of using linen for rapier armor. To elaborate on what
Sir Alexis said ...

Linen is stronger than trigger, therefore you need fewer layers to make
protective gear for rapier combat. In my experience, 3-4 layers of medium
weight (5.0 to 5.5 ounces per square yard; one brand name for this weight is
"Judy" linen) will pass a punch or drop test. Linen breathes better than any
synthetic fiber, including Trigger, allowing the wearer to remain cooler in
hot, humid weather. Linen also has natural antibacterial properties which
keeps it from getting that funky odor that armor tends to acquire over time.
Finally, linen was commonly used for both everyday clothing and armor prior
to the 16th century. Regardless of what the label on the bolt of fabric
advises, linen can be machine washed and dried (garments made from linen
will last longer if they are line-dried, though).

I can personally recommend using 3-4 layers of medium-weight linen from
www.fabrics-store.com (IL019 - 5.3 oz.) to make rapier armor. They have a
good product that is consistent in quality, their prices are reasonable,
their customer service is good, and their shipping is prompt. I have found
that linen is often available from Jo-Ann's in larger cities, but their
prices are higher and IMO the quality of the fabric in terms of tensile
strength is not as good or as consistent as that from fabrics-store.com.

I'll go out on a limb here and anticipate the next question, which is likely
to be, "How many layers do you need to use to make rapier armor?"

In my experience, the number of layers of linen required to pass a punch or
drop test varies depending on the size and strength of the threads in the
fabric as well as the evenness and tightness of the weave. A common
misconception about linen is that heavier weight linen is stronger. I have
seen two layers of 3.5 oz/yd handkerchief weight linen pass a punch test.
Conversely, I have seen four layers of 8 oz/yd canvas weight linen fail a
punch test. Often, heavier weight linen is woven from thicker threads with a
fairly loose weave, whereas medium and light weight linen tends to be woven
from thinner threads and a tighter weave.

How do you know what to use? Have your local rapier marshall punch test the
fabric you intend to use for rapier armor, or ask a reliable source for a
recommendation on vendors and fabrics. I personally have found that two
layers of 5.3 oz/yd linen from  <outbind://13/www.fabrics-store.com>
www.fabrics-store.com (IL019) will reliably pass a punch test, therefore I
use three layers of this weight of linen in my fencing hoods for an
additional margin of safety. Don't take my word for it, though -- have your
local marshall test your fabric before you make rapier armor.

Happy shopping and sewing!

-Anne

HL Anne Barrington
Barony of the Stargate
Kingdom of Ansteorra


From: Elizabeth Crouchet <ecrouchet at gmail.com>
Date: June 16, 2009 11:41:38 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Miss M Brow <starstruck503 at hotmail.com>wrote:
<<< How big a piece of linen is needed for this punch test?  I am wondering
about the surface area, square inches?  Rua >>>

I believe about a 1 foot square as many layers deep as you plan to use,
washed and dried a couple of times.

Oh, and darker blue linen will pass just fine when new but it wears out much
much faster than any other color. Don't know why but have seen it several
times.

Claire


From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: June 16, 2009 5:16:46 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

<<< How big a piece of linen is needed for this punch test?  I am wondering about the surface area, square inches?  Rua >>>

Six or eight inches square at a minimum. You want something big enough to be clamped over a piece of 3-inch pipe. (Appendix 4 here: http://sca.org/officers/marshal/docs/rapier/rapier_handbook.pdf describes how to use a drop-tester.)

       -Tivar Moondragon


From: Haraldr Bassi <ansteorra at haraldr.drakkar.org>
Date: June 17, 2009 10:04:24 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

The best alternative to linen and probably a superior product for durability, is hemp. Though it is much harder to find and consequently much more expensive. I don't know the armor results that people I had sold hemp cloth to back in the East had or even if they had used it for rapier armor. Hemp cloth is starting to show up in some on-line sources. Hemp and nettle cloth are virtually indistinguishable in archeology reports from linen, but were most definitely available.

Haraldr


From: Elizabeth Crouchet <ecrouchet at gmail.com>
Date: June 17, 2009 10:17:30 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

My understanding is that modern linen is made from flax but that in much of
our period the word linen referred to fabrics made from Flax, Hemp or Nettle
interchangeably.

All these fabrics are made from the stems of these plants unlike cotton
which is made from the fruit of the plant. So I might guess that they would
have similar properties but I would have read about it or test it to be
sure.

Bamboo is also showing up as fabric now and seems to feel just soft and
dreamy. I have no idea how it would test out but it would be worth trying
for similar reasons.

Hemp may indeed more durable, that is what they make rope out of.

Claire


From: Carol Ross <gdc at stormypetrel.org>
Date: June 17, 2009 10:22:40 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

Linen made from Hemp is available at Fabrique.com (also a local Dallas area store) however, I've also been informed by the store personal that it is not as strong a fiber. All that being said I'm still interested in buying some for a punch test for Duncan.

Genevieve


From: Haraldr Bassi <ansteorra at haraldr.drakkar.org>
Date: June 17, 2009 11:22:31 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

Carol Ross wrote:
<<< Linen made from Hemp is available at Fabrique.com (also a local Dallas area store) however, I've also been informed by the store personal that it is not as strong a fiber. All that being said I'm still interested in buying some for a punch test for Duncan.
Genevieve >>>

It depends greatly, much like linen, how the fibers are processed. The hemp can have fibers that are up to 2 meters long. But, if they process them on modern linen processing machines, the fibers end up being chopped into much smaller pieces. My hemp came from a company called Ecolution.com out of California who is importing Romanian hemp made on hundred year old steam powered machines. Consequently their fibers are about .6-1+ meters long. I have hemp weaving singles yarn that is almost impossible for me to break, what would be about a 30 or 40 linen singles. That yarn, in a tabby, when properly post processed, turned out very durable and very supple. But the post processing required quite a bit of beetling. I got it wet, froze it almost solid and beat it with a 1 1/4" diam maple rod, re-rolled it the opposite direction, re-froze and repeated that beating 2 to 4 dozen times.

Haraldr


From: James Crouchet <james at crouchet.com>
Date: June 17, 2009 11:44:35 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Suitable breathing armor

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Stephanie Wilson <imstephw at swbell.net>wrote:
<<< I can personally recommend using 3-4 layers of medium-weight linen from
www.fabrics-store.com (IL019 - 5.3 oz.) to make rapier armor. They have a
good product that is consistent in quality, their prices are reasonable,
their customer service is good, and their shipping is prompt. I have found
that linen is often available from Jo-Ann's in larger cities, but their
prices are higher and IMO the quality of the fabric in terms of tensile
strength is not as good or as consistent as that from fabrics-store.com. >>>

I believe that what Jo-Ann's sells as linen is often not linen or is not all
linen (flax). I have absolutely run into examples where they labeled rayon
based "linen look" fabric as linen and they seemed to feel that was
legitimate. Some of the linens from there that people have had me test in
the last couple years don't feel right (I have handled a lot of linen over
the years) and are not as strong. I suspect we are seeing them sell blends
and look alikes labeled so the layman can't tell the difference.

<<< In my experience, the number of layers of linen required to pass a punch or
drop test varies depending on the size and strength of the threads in the
fabric as well as the evenness and tightness of the weave. A common
misconception about linen is that heavier weight linen is stronger. I have
seen two layers of 3.5 oz/yd handkerchief weight linen pass a punch test.
Conversely, I have seen four layers of 8 oz/yd canvas weight linen fail a
punch test. Often, heavier weight linen is woven from thicker threads with a
fairly loose weave, whereas medium and light weight linen tends to be woven
from thinner threads and a tighter weave. >>>

However, the heavier stuff is not necessarily weaker either. It depends on
the particular fabric you get. However, the heavier stuff typically does
breath better due to the larger yarn from which it is woven making a larger
mesh with correspondingly larger openings.

I have found that color can also affect the strength of linen. I think this
would be due to acids used to set the color. In my experience blues have had
the most problems, followed by blacks. Of course, I have not tested much
purple, orange or charteuse. For strength on inner layers or lining you
might consider natural linen which is neither bleached nor dyed. White is
probably next in strength since it would have been bleached but not dyed.

"Softened linen" is weaker and will not last as long. It does feel great but
you are trading strength for the softness.

Whatever you get be sure to wash and dry it a couple of times before testing
it. The sizing (kinda like starch) and more importantly the shrinkage do
affect the strength (shrinkage makes it stronger). Be sure to dry it at
least as hot as the hotest dryer you will ever put the garment in. Linen
shrinks significantly with heat so if you have not done this before cutting
out the fabric then the first time that garment goes into a hot dryer it may
become unwearable or at least too small for you. I generally pre-wash and
dry 2 or 3 times.

BTW, it is true that dryers break linen down faster than line drying but so
long as you avoid frequent use of really hot dryers and over drying the
garment it is not a big problem. I like the soft feel of tumbled linen and
find the slightly shorter lifespan of the garments is a reasonable trade
off.

I recommend you find someone with a drop tester to test your fabric. That is
the default for this kingdom and it is the standard your armor is required
to meet. The 4 thrust test is only an emergency backup if no drop tester is
available. Since the marshals can insist your armor be re tested at any time
you should make sure it will pass the drop test.

One last hint: Try to wear linen all the way to the skin. One of the big
advantages linen has over cotton is that it breaths even when wet. Cotton
does not. So, if you wear a cotton tee shirt under your linen armor then
when the tee shirt gets sweaty you will lose the great air circulation of
the linen.

Don Christian Doré


From: James Crouchet <james at crouchet.com>
Date: June 17, 2009 12:34:57 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Coolest armor ever

With all this talk of linen I should mention an option that breaths even
better. It is a fine mesh stainless steel chainmail shirt. One of our Dons
recently showed up with one. It provides far stronger protection, does not
impede the air flow and should never need to be replaced. However, it is
heavier than cloth, costs a lot and you will still want to wear something
under or over it (or both). Note that this is not just any chainmail but
particular stuff approved for this use. The links are very small and are all
welded shut.

You can find it by going here: http://theringlord.com/ clicking on Catalog
==> Maille Fabric ==> Chainmail Clothing. Look for the chainmail tshirts
with short sleeves, not the vests.

You can also find hoods and shirts here:
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_10&zenid=40d052b53bc4fc7910001eb245e7618b

If anyone gets this be aware there are a few things you have to do, like
coming up with a way to keep the sleeve from hanging open and exposing the
armpit. A simple band does the trick for that. Also, make that is the shirt
is not long enough to cover all necessary area that you have appropriate
armor below it. With the tunic lenght that should not be needed but with the
shirt length you might need pants that pass as armor. Finally, be sure your
hood ovelaps the neck opening as needed.

Don Christian Doré


From: John <iaenmor at swbell.net>
Date: June 17, 2009 4:05:06 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Coolest armor ever

Might as well get it direct from Darkwood's source.  http://www.ringmesh.com/
Not going to save you much but you will be dealing directly with the manufacture that way. 
Iaen

James Crouchet wrote:
<<< With all this talk of linen I should mention an option that breaths even
better. It is a fine mesh stainless steel chainmail shirt. 

You can find it by going here: http://theringlord.com/ clicking on Catalog
==> Maille Fabric ==> Chainmail Clothing. Look for the chainmail tshirts
with short sleeves, not the vests.

You can also find hoods and shirts here:
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4_10&zenid=40d052b53bc4fc7910001eb245e7618b

Don Christian Doré >>>

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	rapier-combat-msg	9 of 9