Title: gambesons-msg
Subject: SCA and period gambesons.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, SCA, armor, gambesons, jacks

gambesons-msg - 2/8/08

Gambesons, SCA and period.

NOTE: See also the files: chainmail-msg, armor-msg, shields-msg, weapons-msg,
armor-leather-msg, armor-plastic-msg, armorers-lst, coat-of-plates-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Re: Gambeson lifespan?
Date: 6 Feb 92 
From: bell at swbatl.sbc.com (Larry Bell - 235-7743)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Southwestern Bell

ephraim at NCoast.ORG (Kenneth Robinson) writes:
> Unto all who read the Rialto, Greetings:
> 
> How long has your gambeson (yes, you, in front of that monitor, there)
> lasted?  And what kind of shape is it in?
 
In my "early days" (AS 10-15) I wore a gambeson of mattress
padding quilted between cotton duck. Over it was a Wisby
coat of plates.  I, er, perspire profusely and the gambeson
had to be retired after about 5 years.  It was still usable,
but ragged and unsightly.   Now I wear (from skin out) a 
t-shirt, thin turtle-neck sweater, cotton tunic, steel
breastplate, surcoat.  The sweater provides enough padding
to prevent chafing from the armor, and the whole combination
is more easily cleaned and longer lasting.

William of Bellwood
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
Larry Bell (314)-235-7743
   bell at swbatl.sbc.com
-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o

Re: Gambeson lifespan?
Date: 6 Feb 92 
From: dlc at hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Dennis Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

ephraim at NCoast.ORG (Kenneth Robinson) asks:
> How long has your gambeson (yes, you, in front of that monitor, there)
> lasted?  And what kind of shape is it in?
 
  About 5 years.  But I wear a coat of plates.  It IS getting a bit worn out
however, I need to replace the edging and it has been mended a couple of 
times.

Kevin

From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Light, Breathable Armor
Date: 10 Aug 93 08:33:13
Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture

One of the most important things in hot-weather climes is what you
wear _under_ your armor. If you pad your armor with foam, the heaven
help you : foam does not breath, and it doesn't absorb sweat well
either. Far superior padding would be commercial or carpet felt.
I have a gambeson of the stuff, and it works well in Atenveldt's 
typical 100+ degree summer weather. I wear steel plate, BTW.

Some areas like helmets must be padded with foam (for safety).
However, if you have room after your 1/2" (12mm) of foam, put
a layer of felt in. Extra protection, and extra comfort.

Of course DRINK A LOT. One of the "miracles" of Estrella
is how you can drink gallons of water during the battles, and
still not fill your (internal) bladder !
--
Dennis O'Connor                          doconnor at sedona.intel.com

From: afn03234 at usenet.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson Patterns?
Date: 16 Mar 1995 12:49:54 GMT
Organization: Alachua County Freenet

Regarding requests for gambeson patterns, there was a very good article 
titled "Jupons, Jacks and Arming Coats in _Tournaments Illuminated_ 
#108.  There was another such article in an earlier issue as well, but I 
haven't come across  it in my collection of TI's yet.  If you have 
contact with anyone who keeps their publications, you should be able to 
come across it.

Hope this helps...
--
	al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris
	Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL
	afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu or roncharlotte at delphi.com

From: kellogg at ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson Patterns?
Date: 14 Mar 1995 16:05:02 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services

Alison Ingrid Grande (AIGRAN00 at ukcc.uky.EDU) wrote:
: Does anyone know of or have patterns/instructions on the makings of gambesons?

	This really depends on the style of gabeson/aketon/bambikion you want.
What time period, and what country?  The Byzantine bambikion is really just
a padded, hooded t-tunic.  Aketons (the correct term) for transitional
armor and full plate appear to be more fitted.  The bambikion style
would probably be fine under a hauberk.

		Avenel Kellough

From: CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gambesons...
Date: 14 Mar 1995 11:39:33 -0500

>> Any information on sizing, materials, and sewing techniques would be
>> greatly appreciated.
> I too would be most appreciative of some advice.  I've had a moving
> blanket for almost five years that really wants to be a gambeson.

I'm currently finishing my first gambeson for my Lord. Again, the
inevitable moving blanket type...  I tend to sew from drawings, not
patterns.  My Lord is a Russian Cossack, so we used a couple of
drawings of a Russian Great Coat to approximate the shape of the
gambeson.  We doubled the thickness of the moving blanket on his chest
(which has greatest potential for blows), and right under the arms
over the ribs.  By the time we'd added the second layer, our sewing
machines would no longer take material under the foot.  So everything
else has been done by hand -- and in my opinion, this will be worth
it.  I personally have sewed each seam three times, guaranteeing it
will wear out from sweat and rot long before busting a seam.  I
aligned each seam like so:
             |               The vertical arrows show the first pass
             v                where I sewed *through* every layer (for
     ========== \             this I strongly recommend a thimble!)
          \ =============    The diagonal lines show where I whip-
             ^                stiched the edges of each layer to the
             |                other layer.  This was also important
                              to seal the raw edges of the moving
                              blanket which were leaking the "lint"
                              inside for padding.
I measured the sleeves (*after* the front & back panels were sewed at
the shoulders) by hanging the panels on my Lord and pining them under
the arms.  He wanted short sleeves that ended at his elbow so they
wouldn't interfere with his elbow armor.  I cut the sleeves to fit
exactly that length and the armhole size left by the panels, and then
attached them.  After the sleeves were on, I finished the seams under
the arms -- and later expanded them to make it fit a little looser.
All raw edges that were not part of a sleeve (neck line, bottom, front
closure) were finished with a blanket stitch.  (Then I finally stopped
sneezing from the lint!)

Now I'm covering the "finished" gambeson with red cordoroy.  I've made
panels for front and back which emphasize the diagonal look of a
Russian Great Coat (wide shoulders narrowing to a small waist).  The
cordoroy is turned over edges and twice whip-stitched, sometimes three
times.  All the whip-stitches should go through as much material as
possible and be set close together to insure they won't be easily
popped.  Oh, and my thread was doubled on my needle.  The advantages
of the whip stitch for me have been that I can hide the stitches in
the lines of the cordoroy, so they're invisible.  The bottom of the
coat flares out, kind of like a couthardie, but not nearly as much
(take a look at Russian uniforms some time).  There are splits at the
side seams for leg mobility.  The coat will close in the front with
ties inside and hooks and eyes outside (overlapping front flaps).
It's all cotton, so it should breathe, and my Lord wore it (unfinished
with a tunic over it) at Estrella and *loved* how it took blows.  Of
course, my first day sewing after Estrella the gambeson *smelled*
but...that's what I get for not having it done in time for war!

> Lochlan Firewalker
Lochlan?  As in the Clan MacLochlan?  Well met, clansman!  (mundanely
a McGlothlin, and SCA from the lands of Strathlachlan...)

Anything further, please feel free to ask.  I've cross-posted this to
the Rialto for people interested there, too.
--
Eilidh Swann of Strathlachlan  *   Darach Shire, CAID
Christine (Cat) McGlothlin    ***  Production Editor, Journals
Cat_McGlothlin at SAGEPUB.COM    ***  Sage Publications, Inc.

From: skye at mcmi.com (leslie watson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Gamasan
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 16:22:36 EST
Organization: Material Culture Management Inc.

Hi to those interested in turning a packing blanket into a gamisan, I did 
this using a quilted vest patern and adding sail cloth gromettes to the 
sleaves and using a basic sleave pattern and attaching the sleaves that 
way.  This helped with the bulk praround the arms and was super easy.  My 
lord loved it and he used it also as a warm up jacket because it looked 
like something period.
sincerely Aibhilin of Skye Ealdormere

From: chance at armadillo.svi.org (John K. Wheeler III)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Brig help
Date: 2 Jun 1995 18:04:59 GMT

I'm about to start making a set of canvas covered brigandine (as opposed 
to leather) and have a question:

I remember someone say there is a specific way of making the holes in the 
canvas... Can anyone help? Normally I'd probably used my handy-dandy seam 
ripper to make a small 'X' but this might not be the best way.

Thanks in advance,
Chance
(who still can't bring himself to believe he is now a Lord)

From: ldhaldan at aol.com (Ld HALDAN)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brig help
Date: 3 Jun 1995 12:43:31 -0400

On making holes in cloth brig.  The best way I've found is to make a hole
in the cloth by pushing a blunt tool (nail, pen, etc...) through the cloth
without cutting the fabric or messing up the weave of the cloth.  This
adds much more durability to where the rivets are located on the garment
(armor?).  Hope this Helps!

-Haldan

Lord Haldan Shieldwrecker|Barony of Osprey, Kingdom of Meridies|
Per pale sable and or a lion rampant counterchanged within a bordure
embattled checky gules and argent**

From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brig help
Date: 4 Jun 1995 00:02:52 -0400

I used a 'dibble' on mine . I took an old hay bale hook , cut off the
curved part , and ground the straight metal part into a point . This
opened up the weave of the canvas without breaking any fibers , but , the
old bale hook shaft was almost 3/8 wide so it made placing rivets really
easy . I would also recommend using large washers . They spread out the
load to the canvas better , as I found out .
                                                        Sir fitz
                                                     A Dwarve of Atenveldt

From: GQQX44A at prodigy.com (Donald Moritz)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns
Date: 15 Jul 1995 05:54:40 GMT

Its funny reading your replies, as we speek i am making a gothic 
gambeson, properly called a "jupon" or arming coat/doublet. I used the 
picture in arms and armor of charles the IV for a base, but in 15th 
century gothic style they had arming points on them. An arming point is a 
hole through the coat that was used to tie the armor to, it is by far the 
most superior armor of all medieval times and areas, if you examine the 
maximillians suit or any of lorenz helmshmieds of Augsburgs armor. It 
glides like butter, when your coat is tied to highly articulated armor 
all you do is move your arm, and the arm follows without any problems at 
all. This is very appropiate for Swiss pikeman or german landshnekt 
personas, and deffinately go with a brigandine if you can't afford the 
gothic full plate armor.

                                 Troy Moritz

From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns
Date: 14 Jul 1995 18:41:53 GMT
Organization: New York University

Jones / Craig Victor (ISE) (u912980 at student.canberra.edu.au) wrote:
: Greetings kind gentles,

: I am considering armouring up and learning the martial side of our 
: society.  I am considering being a *heavy*.  The armour I am considering 
: is the Lanschneck <sp> style.

: Would anyone know of a pattern or simply some good hints or tips for 
: making a durable gambison for this type of armour?

"Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" has a full color photo of a 
Gambeson (or arming coat) of , I think, Charles VI.
This is a heavily padded three-quarter jacket (jacket that reaches to 
about hip length - length of modern suit) with full length sleeves.
The jacket is tailored at the waist and has (I think) a standing colar.

Generally, the gambeson is a padded version of the civil coat worn in the 
same period.

One thing that you probably must do, however, is NOT make the sleeves as 
on a T-tunic - in one with the torso.
Make the sleeves separately and sew them to the torso (like a modern suit).

Peace!
Nahum Kuzari

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ah447 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Victor W. Wong)
Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 11:36:35 GMT

Norman J. Finkelshteyn (nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu) writes:
> "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" has a full color photo of a 
> Gambeson (or arming coat) of , I think, Charles VI.
> This is a heavily padded three-quarter jacket (jacket that reaches to 
> about hip length - length of modern suit) with full length sleeves.
> The jacket is tailored at the waist and has (I think) a standing colar.
> 
> Generally, the gambeson is a padded version of the civil coat worn in the 
> same period.
> 
> One thing that you probably must do, however, is NOT make the sleeves as 
> on a T-tunic - in one with the torso.
> Make the sleeves separately and sew them to the torso (like a modern suit).
> 
> Peace!
> Nahum Kuzari
 
Actually, a better thing to do would be to seal the seams with piping and
sew on ties, so that they can be tied onto the torso.  This should enable
you to get some ventilation under the arms.

…ÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕª
∫8 8 8 8 8∫  VINCENT THE CALCULATOR
ÃÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕπ  mka Victor Wong
∫8 8 8 8 8∫  ah447 at freenet.carleton.ca
∫8 8 8 8 8∫  Barony of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere
»ÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕº
--
Copyright (C) 1995 Victor W. Wong.  All rights reserved.

From: DJDH79D at prodigy.com (Gene jr Clyatt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns
Date: 17 Jul 1995 06:14:44 GMT

The patern that I have for a 14th C. arming coat has chain under the arms 
and down the sides of the arms were the elbow is left open.  It also had 
a chain skirt attached as well as points for attaching the various armour 
pieces.  Making one is one of the many projects I have overloaded myself 
with.
Sorry, source is packed away and unaccessable at this time.

Fian
Lord Fian mac Liat,KS,AoA,GT,GH(x2),VSW,JK,SCC
(gratefully)squire to Earl Alan Youngforest,KSCA,OP
Barony of Sentinels' Keep
Principality of Artemesia / Kingdom of Atenveldt

From: "Robert G. Gleason" <rgleason at srs.loral.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambesons / Aketons
Date: 6 Oct 1995 16:28:25 GMT
Organization: Loral Western Development Labs

Mike Dunajew <mikedun at baarnie.tafe.SA.EDU.AU> wrote:
>Could any kind gentle out there help me with some patterns for a gambeson?

Check out the Winter TI from I think 2 years ago (maybe 3, there is orange ink
on the cover). There is an article on jupons, jacks, and arming coats with
patterns. I have made the joupon several times and my lady wears one as a
gambeson. It is easy to make and lends a very period flair to one's armor.

I highly recommend getting your hands on this article.
Parlan

From: kutedge <kutedge at azstarnet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson padding
Date: 1 May 1996 17:08:42 GMT
Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET

Bob Hurley <bhurley at washington.xtn.net> wrote:
> I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor,
> which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would
> also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period
> (14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking
> risking injury thereby.
> 
> Any ideas from the experienced?

Unto Robert,
   I have been making gambesons and other padded armor for 6 years.
I have worked with many materials for padding, and find it to be a
personal choice.  Some sugestions are:
 Cotton or horsehair batting(to stay in period)
 Hi loft fiber batting, you can get by the yard
 Terry cloth(a fighter recommended this)
   If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. I am 
always glad to help. I am working on one that century now.

		Countess Baroness Deborah of Mightrinwood
		Ye Olde Kutting Edge Armory
		kutedge at azstarnet.com

From: nikolich at postoffice.ptd.net (Katheryn L. Nikolich)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson padding
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 23:41:44 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

Bob Hurley <bhurley at washington.xtn.net> wrote:
>I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor,
>which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would
>also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period
>(14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking
>risking injury thereby.

>Any ideas from the experienced?

No problem.  First, remember that the natural fabrics, (cotton, wool,
silk, linen) breathe much better than the manmade ones.  If you can
find it, try to use 100% cotton batting in the garment, you will be
grateful in the hot summer sun.  For the outer fabric, I suggest using
10 oz. duck which is also generally 100% cotton.  As for the lining, I
also use the duck, but that one is up to you.

I hope that this helps.

Octavia

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Gambeson padding
Date: 2 May 1996 12:32:27 -0400

<Bob Hurley <bhurley at washington.xtn.net>>
>> I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor,
>> which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would
>> also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period
>> (14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking
>> risking injury thereby.
>> Any ideas from the experienced?

I make no pretence to being experienced, but I believe that layered
cloth (linen?) was used in later period "gambesons".  I'd cite the source,
but I only dimly recall the mention.  Perhaps someone who specializes
in armor...?

OTOH, the gambeson that my wife made for her champion was a canvas-like
cloth (and may have been canvas, for all I know), padded with raw, unspun
wool/fleece.

"Fides res non pecunniae,         Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
 sed temporis"                    University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude
 -- Unknown Recreator             Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
                                  (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: alshaw at isisnet.com (A. H. Shaw  )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson padding
Date: 10 May 1996 03:12:02 GMT
Organization: isis inc. (Internet Provider), NS Canada.

And, of course, there is the old standby of 'moving quilt' gambeson, to 
wit: the the gambeson made of the clothes that moving companies wrap 
items in.  I found it a bit of a pain to work with, but i'm no seamstress.

Robert Peregrine

From: John Hood <75407.115 at CompuServe.COM>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Gambeson padding
Date: 14 May 1996 15:54:02 GMT

I've done moving quilt gambesons and found them to be just too
stiff and easy to overheat in.  I'm trying it next the old
fashioned way (quilt batting between two layers of cotton trigger).
 I'll let you know.

                                Ian of Lanarkshire,               
                        sometime poet, theologian, and
                        stick jock who can sew (barely).  

From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period gambesons
Date: 23 Sep 1996 03:36:31 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

Steven L. Anderson <steveo at mauve> wrote:
>I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any
>sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of
>stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.).  Does anyone have a
>source or some pointers?

        There isn't a whole lot of surviving information. There are three
14th c. quilted garments that could be used as gambesons (the pourpoint of
Charles of Blois in the Musee des Tissus in Lyon, the surcoat of Edward
the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral, and the coat armor of Charles VI
in Chartres cathedral). There are also a few surviving illustration of
gambesons from the 13th to 15th centuries. The Majeskowski Bible has some
good illustrations of 13th c. stuff. 

        Other than that, you just have to hunt through decent books on
arms and armor and look for pictures to model your garment on. 
Occasionally the hems or arms of a gambeson will peek out from underneath
a knight's armor in an effigy. 

        Period gambesons were made of two layers of heavy cloth with some 
sort of wadding quilted in between. The wadding was usually something 
like cotton or horsehair but could be something like rags or hay in a 
pinch. For a modern gambeson cotton quilt batting is pretty close to what 
you want. (I've heard that it breathes better than the synthetic stuff, 
but friends who have made gambesons say that it doesn't make any 
difference what sort of batting you use, the garment will still be hot.)

        If you were rich and any part of the gambeson were to show, then 
you might flaunt your wealth by making the outer layer of the garment 
from fancy cloth. The inside layer is just a plain sturdy material. The 
Blois pourpoint has brocade on the outside, the Black Prince surcoat is 
embroidered with the prince's arms, and Charles VI's cote is made of 
maroon or red wool. All have plain fabric on the inside.

        As a guess, I'd say that 14th and 15th c. gambesons mirrored the 
fashions of the day, except that they had points at the thighs, 
shoulders, and elbows to tie on the pieces of armor. The pictures of 15th 
c. doublets that I've seen occasionally have laces in the right places. 
The 14th c. garments don't have laces (except to hold the hosen on), but 
there's no reason why they couldn't have had them.

        14th and 15th c. gambesons/pourpoints could be quite complex. 
I'm currently trying to recreate the Charles the Blois pattern and once 
it is done, it will have approximately 60 pieces, not including buttons. 
The coat armor of Charles VI is a bit simpler - essentially a quilted 
cotehardie- but that's still a fairly complex garment. The earlier 
gambesons shown in the Majeskowski Bible look to be a bit simpler, since 
they are looser fitting. (The 14th c. garments were designed to follow 
the fashions of the day and were designed to possibly go under plate 
armor, so they hug the body. The 13th c. designs were designed to go 
under mail, and are much more loosely fitting. If you are shaky about 
your sewing or patterning skills get an experienced costumer to help you, 
especially if you are going to attempt one of the 14th c. gambesons.

        As a guess at yardage, I'd say that you want about 2-3 yards of 
material for each layer depending on how wide the cloth is, how big you 
are, and how loose you want the garment to be. Traditionally, a 14th c. 
gambeson came to just above the knee, and the rest of the layers of body 
armor were layered so that the end of each layer showed.
 
        Any book on medieval brasses or medieval armor is going to give
you some ideas of how the gambeson worked, though they probably won't give
you pictures of a full gambeson. My favorite book is Edge and Paddock's
"Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight". The Osprey Men-at-Arms Series
"German Medieval Armies 1200-1400" has some pictures of interesting 14th
c. quilted garments that could be used as gambesons. Medieval Miscellany
Patterns has several packages of patterns for fighting garments that you
can buy, but I'm not sure how good they are. I've had trouble with MM
patterns in the past. 

        Lothar

From: Jean-Baptiste joule <jb-joule at worldnet.fr>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period gambesons look here for patterns
Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:20:49 +0200
Organization: SCT / Worldnet - Internet Provider & Information Exchange - Paris, France

Steven L. Anderson wrote:
> I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any
> sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of
> stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.).  Does anyone have a
> source or some pointers?

There's an EXCELLENT URL about gambesons : just try that.

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~roy/sca/flame/war/1.html

Enjoy
Jean-Baptiste

From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period gambesons
Date: 26 Sep 1996 23:26:21 GMT
Organization: New York University

Steven L. Anderson (steveo at mauve) wrote:
: I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any
: sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of
: stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.).  Does anyone have a
: source or some pointers?

"Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" has a photo of a gambeson (I
believe it belonged to a french king) it also has a good amount to say
about them.

Good book for many questions on armor.

Nahum Kuzari

From: trn0 at aol.com (Trn0)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: looking for a pattern for ARMING JACKET, p l e a s e ?
Date: 7 Jan 1997 05:21:55 GMT

jason <eccles at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Any info much appreciated!
>eccles at aol.com

You might also try http://www.soton.ac.uk/~roy/sca/flame/war/
There were instructions there for making a padded gambeson.  (if that's
the same as what you're looking for.)

From: mclean1382 at aol.com (McLean1382)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: <blush> armory question (was Re: Full Plate in SCA?)
Date: 7 Mar 1997 02:57:47 GMT

Tatiana Hawkwood wrote:

"This is slightly off topic, but please help a senile lady refresh her
memory.. What do you fighter gentles wear under the armor? I cannot for
the life of me remember the terms and usage here, and it's suddenly
become kind of important."

Depends on what period you're talking about. The padded garment a 13th c.
knight wore under his armor might be called a gambeson or aketon. A 14th
or 15th c. man at arms might wear an arming doublet, a similar but more
fitted garment.

On our lower body we'd wear breeches and hose. One 15th c. account says
it's a good idea to reinforce the knees with "bulkwarks of blanket" top
protect from chafing.

Does that help?

Galleron

From: Bredin Zierd <bredin.zierd at techemail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gambeson closure
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:32:14 +1100

owly at hem.utfors.se found it necessary to say...
> I'm making my first gambeson in the 14th century style. Now I know
> it's supposed to have fabric buttons in the front and I don't mind
> making them but are they the best way of keeping the gambeson closed
> in front? How about lacing or ties or buckles or even, "shudder",
> velcro? Period is nice but I'd rather be practical than period if all
> those hand sewn buttons will pop off the first day in the field. All
> comment are welcome :-)

Ive always buckled mine down the front, and run a belt around the waist for 
extra insurance. Never had a problem.
-- 
Bredin

From: Dawn Fry <dawnfry at yahoo.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gambeson closure
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:22:22 -0600

The buttons may not pop off as bad as you think they will.  Especially if
you do the 14th century *lots* of buttons.  Keep a very small amount of
space between each button,  That way they will take a lot more stress.
Use a heavy thread, and use lots of thread and good knots to hold the
buttons on.  And make extra buttons.  (If you lose a few on the field,
the gambeson should stay closed IF you put as many buttons on as they did
in period).

I use ties made out of canvas to hold mine together.  That works just
fine.  I copied the ties off of my friend, Duncan MacIntyre, who loves
14th century stuff.  Neither of us has had problems with the ties.

I wouldn't recommend lacing, as it would take a long time to get it laced
up, if you accidentally unlaced it.  Ties (hidden or showing) would be my
alternative to using the buttons.

-Banba

From: noramunro at aol.comclutter (Alianora Munro)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gambeson closure
Date: 12 Nov 2000 12:49:54 GMT

Dawn Fry <dawnfry at yahoo.com> writes:

>The buttons may not pop off as bad as you think they will.  Especially if
>you do the 14th century *lots* of buttons.  Keep a very small amount of
>space between each button,  That way they will take a lot more stress.
>Use a heavy thread, and use lots of thread and good knots to hold the
>buttons on.  And make extra buttons.  (If you lose a few on the field,
>the gambeson should stay closed IF you put as many buttons on as they did
>in period).

In addition to lots of buttons, let me suggest 14th-c cloth buttons.  Those, I
find, are pretty tough, especially when made with a sturdy fabric and
buttonhole twist (available at your local fabric store).  Mine are used on some
high-stress garments (tight sleeves and so on) and I haven't had any problems
with them popping off, nor do they tend to pop open randomly.  They are also
easy to make and much cheaper than buying metal buttons, especially if you're
planning to order reproduction buttons from somewhere.  The first couple of
buttons will take a while to do, but once you get the knack of it they go very
quickly.  It probably takes me less than 5 minutes per button now.

There was an article on how to make cloth buttons in the _Oak_ (the Atlantian
A&S newsletter) several years ago, which is where I learned how to do it, but
surely someone has a web site on them, too?

Alianora Munro, Bright Hills, Atlantia

From: "Raymond C. Parks" <rcparks at rt66.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: gambeson closure
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:43:32 -0700
Organization: Rt66.COM, New Mexico's #1 ISP

owly at hem.utfors.se wrote:
> I'm making my first gambeson in the 14th century style. Now I know
> it's supposed to have fabric buttons in the front and I don't mind
> making them but are they the best way of keeping the gambeson closed
> in front? How about lacing or ties or buckles or even, "shudder",
> velcro? Period is nice but I'd rather be practical than period if all
> those hand sewn buttons will pop off the first day in the field. All
> comment are welcome :-)

  If this gambeson will be worn under armour, don't forget the question
of comfort.  Buttons, even cloth, can present an annoying, chafing,
possibly even bruising presence under a breastplate or brigandine.

Ray Parks
Goetz Liedtke

<the end>

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