gambesons-msg - 2/8/08 Gambesons, SCA and period. NOTE: See also the files: chainmail-msg, armor-msg, shields-msg, weapons-msg, armor-leather-msg, armor-plastic-msg, armorers-lst, coat-of-plates-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Re: Gambeson lifespan? Date: 6 Feb 92 From: bell at swbatl.sbc.com (Larry Bell - 235-7743) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Southwestern Bell ephraim at NCoast.ORG (Kenneth Robinson) writes: > Unto all who read the Rialto, Greetings: > > How long has your gambeson (yes, you, in front of that monitor, there) > lasted? And what kind of shape is it in? In my "early days" (AS 10-15) I wore a gambeson of mattress padding quilted between cotton duck. Over it was a Wisby coat of plates. I, er, perspire profusely and the gambeson had to be retired after about 5 years. It was still usable, but ragged and unsightly. Now I wear (from skin out) a t-shirt, thin turtle-neck sweater, cotton tunic, steel breastplate, surcoat. The sweater provides enough padding to prevent chafing from the armor, and the whole combination is more easily cleaned and longer lasting. William of Bellwood -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o Larry Bell (314)-235-7743 bell at swbatl.sbc.com -o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o Re: Gambeson lifespan? Date: 6 Feb 92 From: dlc at hpfcso.FC.HP.COM (Dennis Clark) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA ephraim at NCoast.ORG (Kenneth Robinson) asks: > How long has your gambeson (yes, you, in front of that monitor, there) > lasted? And what kind of shape is it in? About 5 years. But I wear a coat of plates. It IS getting a bit worn out however, I need to replace the edging and it has been mended a couple of times. Kevin From: doconnor at sedona.intel.com (Dennis O'Connor) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Light, Breathable Armor Date: 10 Aug 93 08:33:13 Organization: Intel i960(tm) Architecture One of the most important things in hot-weather climes is what you wear _under_ your armor. If you pad your armor with foam, the heaven help you : foam does not breath, and it doesn't absorb sweat well either. Far superior padding would be commercial or carpet felt. I have a gambeson of the stuff, and it works well in Atenveldt's typical 100+ degree summer weather. I wear steel plate, BTW. Some areas like helmets must be padded with foam (for safety). However, if you have room after your 1/2" (12mm) of foam, put a layer of felt in. Extra protection, and extra comfort. Of course DRINK A LOT. One of the "miracles" of Estrella is how you can drink gallons of water during the battles, and still not fill your (internal) bladder ! -- Dennis O'Connor doconnor at sedona.intel.com From: afn03234 at usenet.freenet.ufl.edu (Ronald L. Charlotte) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson Patterns? Date: 16 Mar 1995 12:49:54 GMT Organization: Alachua County Freenet Regarding requests for gambeson patterns, there was a very good article titled "Jupons, Jacks and Arming Coats in _Tournaments Illuminated_ #108. There was another such article in an earlier issue as well, but I haven't come across it in my collection of TI's yet. If you have contact with anyone who keeps their publications, you should be able to come across it. Hope this helps... -- al Thaalibi -- An Crosaire, Trimaris Ron Charlotte -- Gainesville, FL afn03234 at freenet.ufl.edu or roncharlotte at delphi.com From: kellogg at ucssun1.sdsu.edu (C. Kevin Kellogg) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson Patterns? Date: 14 Mar 1995 16:05:02 GMT Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services Alison Ingrid Grande (AIGRAN00 at ukcc.uky.EDU) wrote: : Does anyone know of or have patterns/instructions on the makings of gambesons? This really depends on the style of gabeson/aketon/bambikion you want. What time period, and what country? The Byzantine bambikion is really just a padded, hooded t-tunic. Aketons (the correct term) for transitional armor and full plate appear to be more fitted. The bambikion style would probably be fine under a hauberk. Avenel Kellough From: CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN at sagepub.COM (CHRISTINE_McGLOTHLIN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Gambesons... Date: 14 Mar 1995 11:39:33 -0500 >> Any information on sizing, materials, and sewing techniques would be >> greatly appreciated. > I too would be most appreciative of some advice. I've had a moving > blanket for almost five years that really wants to be a gambeson. I'm currently finishing my first gambeson for my Lord. Again, the inevitable moving blanket type... I tend to sew from drawings, not patterns. My Lord is a Russian Cossack, so we used a couple of drawings of a Russian Great Coat to approximate the shape of the gambeson. We doubled the thickness of the moving blanket on his chest (which has greatest potential for blows), and right under the arms over the ribs. By the time we'd added the second layer, our sewing machines would no longer take material under the foot. So everything else has been done by hand -- and in my opinion, this will be worth it. I personally have sewed each seam three times, guaranteeing it will wear out from sweat and rot long before busting a seam. I aligned each seam like so: | The vertical arrows show the first pass v where I sewed *through* every layer (for ========== \ this I strongly recommend a thimble!) \ ============= The diagonal lines show where I whip- ^ stiched the edges of each layer to the | other layer. This was also important to seal the raw edges of the moving blanket which were leaking the "lint" inside for padding. I measured the sleeves (*after* the front & back panels were sewed at the shoulders) by hanging the panels on my Lord and pining them under the arms. He wanted short sleeves that ended at his elbow so they wouldn't interfere with his elbow armor. I cut the sleeves to fit exactly that length and the armhole size left by the panels, and then attached them. After the sleeves were on, I finished the seams under the arms -- and later expanded them to make it fit a little looser. All raw edges that were not part of a sleeve (neck line, bottom, front closure) were finished with a blanket stitch. (Then I finally stopped sneezing from the lint!) Now I'm covering the "finished" gambeson with red cordoroy. I've made panels for front and back which emphasize the diagonal look of a Russian Great Coat (wide shoulders narrowing to a small waist). The cordoroy is turned over edges and twice whip-stitched, sometimes three times. All the whip-stitches should go through as much material as possible and be set close together to insure they won't be easily popped. Oh, and my thread was doubled on my needle. The advantages of the whip stitch for me have been that I can hide the stitches in the lines of the cordoroy, so they're invisible. The bottom of the coat flares out, kind of like a couthardie, but not nearly as much (take a look at Russian uniforms some time). There are splits at the side seams for leg mobility. The coat will close in the front with ties inside and hooks and eyes outside (overlapping front flaps). It's all cotton, so it should breathe, and my Lord wore it (unfinished with a tunic over it) at Estrella and *loved* how it took blows. Of course, my first day sewing after Estrella the gambeson *smelled* but...that's what I get for not having it done in time for war! > Lochlan Firewalker Lochlan? As in the Clan MacLochlan? Well met, clansman! (mundanely a McGlothlin, and SCA from the lands of Strathlachlan...) Anything further, please feel free to ask. I've cross-posted this to the Rialto for people interested there, too. -- Eilidh Swann of Strathlachlan * Darach Shire, CAID Christine (Cat) McGlothlin *** Production Editor, Journals Cat_McGlothlin at SAGEPUB.COM *** Sage Publications, Inc. From: skye at mcmi.com (leslie watson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Gamasan Date: Tue, 14 Mar 95 16:22:36 EST Organization: Material Culture Management Inc. Hi to those interested in turning a packing blanket into a gamisan, I did this using a quilted vest patern and adding sail cloth gromettes to the sleaves and using a basic sleave pattern and attaching the sleaves that way. This helped with the bulk praround the arms and was super easy. My lord loved it and he used it also as a warm up jacket because it looked like something period. sincerely Aibhilin of Skye Ealdormere From: chance at armadillo.svi.org (John K. Wheeler III) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Brig help Date: 2 Jun 1995 18:04:59 GMT I'm about to start making a set of canvas covered brigandine (as opposed to leather) and have a question: I remember someone say there is a specific way of making the holes in the canvas... Can anyone help? Normally I'd probably used my handy-dandy seam ripper to make a small 'X' but this might not be the best way. Thanks in advance, Chance (who still can't bring himself to believe he is now a Lord) From: ldhaldan at aol.com (Ld HALDAN) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brig help Date: 3 Jun 1995 12:43:31 -0400 On making holes in cloth brig. The best way I've found is to make a hole in the cloth by pushing a blunt tool (nail, pen, etc...) through the cloth without cutting the fabric or messing up the weave of the cloth. This adds much more durability to where the rivets are located on the garment (armor?). Hope this Helps! -Haldan Lord Haldan Shieldwrecker|Barony of Osprey, Kingdom of Meridies| Per pale sable and or a lion rampant counterchanged within a bordure embattled checky gules and argent** From: cromabu at aol.com (CromAbu) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Brig help Date: 4 Jun 1995 00:02:52 -0400 I used a 'dibble' on mine . I took an old hay bale hook , cut off the curved part , and ground the straight metal part into a point . This opened up the weave of the canvas without breaking any fibers , but , the old bale hook shaft was almost 3/8 wide so it made placing rivets really easy . I would also recommend using large washers . They spread out the load to the canvas better , as I found out . Sir fitz A Dwarve of Atenveldt From: GQQX44A at prodigy.com (Donald Moritz) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns Date: 15 Jul 1995 05:54:40 GMT Its funny reading your replies, as we speek i am making a gothic gambeson, properly called a "jupon" or arming coat/doublet. I used the picture in arms and armor of charles the IV for a base, but in 15th century gothic style they had arming points on them. An arming point is a hole through the coat that was used to tie the armor to, it is by far the most superior armor of all medieval times and areas, if you examine the maximillians suit or any of lorenz helmshmieds of Augsburgs armor. It glides like butter, when your coat is tied to highly articulated armor all you do is move your arm, and the arm follows without any problems at all. This is very appropiate for Swiss pikeman or german landshnekt personas, and deffinately go with a brigandine if you can't afford the gothic full plate armor. Troy Moritz From: nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu (Norman J. Finkelshteyn) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns Date: 14 Jul 1995 18:41:53 GMT Organization: New York University Jones / Craig Victor (ISE) (u912980 at student.canberra.edu.au) wrote: : Greetings kind gentles, : I am considering armouring up and learning the martial side of our : society. I am considering being a *heavy*. The armour I am considering : is the Lanschneck style. : Would anyone know of a pattern or simply some good hints or tips for : making a durable gambison for this type of armour? "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" has a full color photo of a Gambeson (or arming coat) of , I think, Charles VI. This is a heavily padded three-quarter jacket (jacket that reaches to about hip length - length of modern suit) with full length sleeves. The jacket is tailored at the waist and has (I think) a standing colar. Generally, the gambeson is a padded version of the civil coat worn in the same period. One thing that you probably must do, however, is NOT make the sleeves as on a T-tunic - in one with the torso. Make the sleeves separately and sew them to the torso (like a modern suit). Peace! Nahum Kuzari Newsgroups: rec.org.sca From: ah447 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Victor W. Wong) Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns Organization: The National Capital FreeNet Date: Sun, 16 Jul 1995 11:36:35 GMT Norman J. Finkelshteyn (nqf2312 at is2.nyu.edu) writes: > "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" has a full color photo of a > Gambeson (or arming coat) of , I think, Charles VI. > This is a heavily padded three-quarter jacket (jacket that reaches to > about hip length - length of modern suit) with full length sleeves. > The jacket is tailored at the waist and has (I think) a standing colar. > > Generally, the gambeson is a padded version of the civil coat worn in the > same period. > > One thing that you probably must do, however, is NOT make the sleeves as > on a T-tunic - in one with the torso. > Make the sleeves separately and sew them to the torso (like a modern suit). > > Peace! > Nahum Kuzari Actually, a better thing to do would be to seal the seams with piping and sew on ties, so that they can be tied onto the torso. This should enable you to get some ventilation under the arms. …ÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕª ∫8 8 8 8 8∫ VINCENT THE CALCULATOR ÃÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕπ mka Victor Wong ∫8 8 8 8 8∫ ah447 at freenet.carleton.ca ∫8 8 8 8 8∫ Barony of Skraeling Althing, Ealdormere »ÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕÕº -- Copyright (C) 1995 Victor W. Wong. All rights reserved. From: DJDH79D at prodigy.com (Gene jr Clyatt) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambison Patterns Date: 17 Jul 1995 06:14:44 GMT The patern that I have for a 14th C. arming coat has chain under the arms and down the sides of the arms were the elbow is left open. It also had a chain skirt attached as well as points for attaching the various armour pieces. Making one is one of the many projects I have overloaded myself with. Sorry, source is packed away and unaccessable at this time. Fian Lord Fian mac Liat,KS,AoA,GT,GH(x2),VSW,JK,SCC (gratefully)squire to Earl Alan Youngforest,KSCA,OP Barony of Sentinels' Keep Principality of Artemesia / Kingdom of Atenveldt From: "Robert G. Gleason" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambesons / Aketons Date: 6 Oct 1995 16:28:25 GMT Organization: Loral Western Development Labs Mike Dunajew wrote: >Could any kind gentle out there help me with some patterns for a gambeson? Check out the Winter TI from I think 2 years ago (maybe 3, there is orange ink on the cover). There is an article on jupons, jacks, and arming coats with patterns. I have made the joupon several times and my lady wears one as a gambeson. It is easy to make and lends a very period flair to one's armor. I highly recommend getting your hands on this article. Parlan From: kutedge Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson padding Date: 1 May 1996 17:08:42 GMT Organization: Arizona Daily Star - AZSTARNET Bob Hurley wrote: > I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor, > which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would > also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period > (14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking > risking injury thereby. > > Any ideas from the experienced? Unto Robert, I have been making gambesons and other padded armor for 6 years. I have worked with many materials for padding, and find it to be a personal choice. Some sugestions are: Cotton or horsehair batting(to stay in period) Hi loft fiber batting, you can get by the yard Terry cloth(a fighter recommended this) If you have any questions please feel free to contact me. I am always glad to help. I am working on one that century now. Countess Baroness Deborah of Mightrinwood Ye Olde Kutting Edge Armory kutedge at azstarnet.com From: nikolich at postoffice.ptd.net (Katheryn L. Nikolich) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson padding Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 23:41:44 GMT Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc. Bob Hurley wrote: >I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor, >which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would >also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period >(14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking >risking injury thereby. >Any ideas from the experienced? No problem. First, remember that the natural fabrics, (cotton, wool, silk, linen) breathe much better than the manmade ones. If you can find it, try to use 100% cotton batting in the garment, you will be grateful in the hot summer sun. For the outer fabric, I suggest using 10 oz. duck which is also generally 100% cotton. As for the lining, I also use the duck, but that one is up to you. I hope that this helps. Octavia From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.EDU (Marc Carlson) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: re: Gambeson padding Date: 2 May 1996 12:32:27 -0400 > >> I intend to make a padded gambeson to go under my armor, >> which is leather with steel shoulders & elbows. I would >> also like to make a serious attempt to stay in period >> (14th C, give or take a C) with materials, without taking >> risking injury thereby. >> Any ideas from the experienced? I make no pretence to being experienced, but I believe that layered cloth (linen?) was used in later period "gambesons". I'd cite the source, but I only dimly recall the mention. Perhaps someone who specializes in armor...? OTOH, the gambeson that my wife made for her champion was a canvas-like cloth (and may have been canvas, for all I know), padded with raw, unspun wool/fleece. "Fides res non pecunniae, Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn sed temporis" University of Northkeep/Company of St. Jude -- Unknown Recreator Northkeepshire, Ansteorra (I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu) From: alshaw at isisnet.com (A. H. Shaw ) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson padding Date: 10 May 1996 03:12:02 GMT Organization: isis inc. (Internet Provider), NS Canada. And, of course, there is the old standby of 'moving quilt' gambeson, to wit: the the gambeson made of the clothes that moving companies wrap items in. I found it a bit of a pain to work with, but i'm no seamstress. Robert Peregrine From: John Hood <75407.115 at CompuServe.COM> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Gambeson padding Date: 14 May 1996 15:54:02 GMT I've done moving quilt gambesons and found them to be just too stiff and easy to overheat in. I'm trying it next the old fashioned way (quilt batting between two layers of cotton trigger). I'll let you know. Ian of Lanarkshire, sometime poet, theologian, and stick jock who can sew (barely). From: rorice at nickel.ucs.indiana.edu (rosalyn rice) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period gambesons Date: 23 Sep 1996 03:36:31 GMT Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington Steven L. Anderson wrote: >I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any >sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of >stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.). Does anyone have a >source or some pointers? There isn't a whole lot of surviving information. There are three 14th c. quilted garments that could be used as gambesons (the pourpoint of Charles of Blois in the Musee des Tissus in Lyon, the surcoat of Edward the Black Prince in Canterbury Cathedral, and the coat armor of Charles VI in Chartres cathedral). There are also a few surviving illustration of gambesons from the 13th to 15th centuries. The Majeskowski Bible has some good illustrations of 13th c. stuff. Other than that, you just have to hunt through decent books on arms and armor and look for pictures to model your garment on. Occasionally the hems or arms of a gambeson will peek out from underneath a knight's armor in an effigy. Period gambesons were made of two layers of heavy cloth with some sort of wadding quilted in between. The wadding was usually something like cotton or horsehair but could be something like rags or hay in a pinch. For a modern gambeson cotton quilt batting is pretty close to what you want. (I've heard that it breathes better than the synthetic stuff, but friends who have made gambesons say that it doesn't make any difference what sort of batting you use, the garment will still be hot.) If you were rich and any part of the gambeson were to show, then you might flaunt your wealth by making the outer layer of the garment from fancy cloth. The inside layer is just a plain sturdy material. The Blois pourpoint has brocade on the outside, the Black Prince surcoat is embroidered with the prince's arms, and Charles VI's cote is made of maroon or red wool. All have plain fabric on the inside. As a guess, I'd say that 14th and 15th c. gambesons mirrored the fashions of the day, except that they had points at the thighs, shoulders, and elbows to tie on the pieces of armor. The pictures of 15th c. doublets that I've seen occasionally have laces in the right places. The 14th c. garments don't have laces (except to hold the hosen on), but there's no reason why they couldn't have had them. 14th and 15th c. gambesons/pourpoints could be quite complex. I'm currently trying to recreate the Charles the Blois pattern and once it is done, it will have approximately 60 pieces, not including buttons. The coat armor of Charles VI is a bit simpler - essentially a quilted cotehardie- but that's still a fairly complex garment. The earlier gambesons shown in the Majeskowski Bible look to be a bit simpler, since they are looser fitting. (The 14th c. garments were designed to follow the fashions of the day and were designed to possibly go under plate armor, so they hug the body. The 13th c. designs were designed to go under mail, and are much more loosely fitting. If you are shaky about your sewing or patterning skills get an experienced costumer to help you, especially if you are going to attempt one of the 14th c. gambesons. As a guess at yardage, I'd say that you want about 2-3 yards of material for each layer depending on how wide the cloth is, how big you are, and how loose you want the garment to be. Traditionally, a 14th c. gambeson came to just above the knee, and the rest of the layers of body armor were layered so that the end of each layer showed. Any book on medieval brasses or medieval armor is going to give you some ideas of how the gambeson worked, though they probably won't give you pictures of a full gambeson. My favorite book is Edge and Paddock's "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight". The Osprey Men-at-Arms Series "German Medieval Armies 1200-1400" has some pictures of interesting 14th c. quilted garments that could be used as gambesons. Medieval Miscellany Patterns has several packages of patterns for fighting garments that you can buy, but I'm not sure how good they are. I've had trouble with MM patterns in the past. Lothar From: Jean-Baptiste joule Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period gambesons look here for patterns Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 16:20:49 +0200 Organization: SCT / Worldnet - Internet Provider & Information Exchange - Paris, France Steven L. Anderson wrote: > I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any > sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of > stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.). Does anyone have a > source or some pointers? There's an EXCELLENT URL about gambesons : just try that. http://www.soton.ac.uk/~roy/sca/flame/war/1.html Enjoy Jean-Baptiste From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Period gambesons Date: 26 Sep 1996 23:26:21 GMT Organization: New York University Steven L. Anderson (steveo at mauve) wrote: : I'd like to make a period gambeson, but I am not familiar with any : sources that describe them (what they are made out of, what kind of : stuffing and how much, the stitching, etc.). Does anyone have a : source or some pointers? "Arms and Armour of the Medieval Knight" has a photo of a gambeson (I believe it belonged to a french king) it also has a good amount to say about them. Good book for many questions on armor. Nahum Kuzari From: trn0 at aol.com (Trn0) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: looking for a pattern for ARMING JACKET, p l e a s e ? Date: 7 Jan 1997 05:21:55 GMT jason wrote: >Any info much appreciated! >eccles at aol.com You might also try http://www.soton.ac.uk/~roy/sca/flame/war/ There were instructions there for making a padded gambeson. (if that's the same as what you're looking for.) From: mclean1382 at aol.com (McLean1382) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: armory question (was Re: Full Plate in SCA?) Date: 7 Mar 1997 02:57:47 GMT Tatiana Hawkwood wrote: "This is slightly off topic, but please help a senile lady refresh her memory.. What do you fighter gentles wear under the armor? I cannot for the life of me remember the terms and usage here, and it's suddenly become kind of important." Depends on what period you're talking about. The padded garment a 13th c. knight wore under his armor might be called a gambeson or aketon. A 14th or 15th c. man at arms might wear an arming doublet, a similar but more fitted garment. On our lower body we'd wear breeches and hose. One 15th c. account says it's a good idea to reinforce the knees with "bulkwarks of blanket" top protect from chafing. Does that help? Galleron From: Bredin Zierd Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: gambeson closure Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 02:32:14 +1100 owly at hem.utfors.se found it necessary to say... > I'm making my first gambeson in the 14th century style. Now I know > it's supposed to have fabric buttons in the front and I don't mind > making them but are they the best way of keeping the gambeson closed > in front? How about lacing or ties or buckles or even, "shudder", > velcro? Period is nice but I'd rather be practical than period if all > those hand sewn buttons will pop off the first day in the field. All > comment are welcome :-) Ive always buckled mine down the front, and run a belt around the waist for extra insurance. Never had a problem. -- Bredin From: Dawn Fry Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: gambeson closure Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 23:22:22 -0600 The buttons may not pop off as bad as you think they will. Especially if you do the 14th century *lots* of buttons. Keep a very small amount of space between each button, That way they will take a lot more stress. Use a heavy thread, and use lots of thread and good knots to hold the buttons on. And make extra buttons. (If you lose a few on the field, the gambeson should stay closed IF you put as many buttons on as they did in period). I use ties made out of canvas to hold mine together. That works just fine. I copied the ties off of my friend, Duncan MacIntyre, who loves 14th century stuff. Neither of us has had problems with the ties. I wouldn't recommend lacing, as it would take a long time to get it laced up, if you accidentally unlaced it. Ties (hidden or showing) would be my alternative to using the buttons. -Banba From: noramunro at aol.comclutter (Alianora Munro) Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: gambeson closure Date: 12 Nov 2000 12:49:54 GMT Dawn Fry writes: >The buttons may not pop off as bad as you think they will. Especially if >you do the 14th century *lots* of buttons. Keep a very small amount of >space between each button, That way they will take a lot more stress. >Use a heavy thread, and use lots of thread and good knots to hold the >buttons on. And make extra buttons. (If you lose a few on the field, >the gambeson should stay closed IF you put as many buttons on as they did >in period). In addition to lots of buttons, let me suggest 14th-c cloth buttons. Those, I find, are pretty tough, especially when made with a sturdy fabric and buttonhole twist (available at your local fabric store). Mine are used on some high-stress garments (tight sleeves and so on) and I haven't had any problems with them popping off, nor do they tend to pop open randomly. They are also easy to make and much cheaper than buying metal buttons, especially if you're planning to order reproduction buttons from somewhere. The first couple of buttons will take a while to do, but once you get the knack of it they go very quickly. It probably takes me less than 5 minutes per button now. There was an article on how to make cloth buttons in the _Oak_ (the Atlantian A&S newsletter) several years ago, which is where I learned how to do it, but surely someone has a web site on them, too? Alianora Munro, Bright Hills, Atlantia From: "Raymond C. Parks" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: gambeson closure Date: Sun, 12 Nov 2000 10:43:32 -0700 Organization: Rt66.COM, New Mexico's #1 ISP owly at hem.utfors.se wrote: > I'm making my first gambeson in the 14th century style. Now I know > it's supposed to have fabric buttons in the front and I don't mind > making them but are they the best way of keeping the gambeson closed > in front? How about lacing or ties or buckles or even, "shudder", > velcro? Period is nice but I'd rather be practical than period if all > those hand sewn buttons will pop off the first day in the field. All > comment are welcome :-) If this gambeson will be worn under armour, don't forget the question of comfort. Buttons, even cloth, can present an annoying, chafing, possibly even bruising presence under a breastplate or brigandine. Ray Parks Goetz Liedtke Edited by Mark S. Harris gambesons-msg Page 14 of 14