Title: slings-msg
Subject: Use of slings in combat
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Company: Motorola
Keywords: medieval, slings, weapons, rock, throwing

slings-msg - 11/14/16

Slings as weapons. combat and hunting.

NOTE: See also the files: wounds-msg, warfare-msg, weapons-msg, quarterstaff-msg, axes-msg, p-armor-msg, firearms-msg, archery-msg, leather-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: New weapon
Date: 16 Nov 1994 02:35:51 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account...]
Mike Campbell <mike at aloysius.equinox.gen.nz> wrote:
> jhusvar at Nimitz.mcs.kent.edu writes:
>
>  > (Proposed introduction of slingers into SCA combat deleted because of
>  > brain-dead posting program)
>  > 
>  > I seem to recall slinger were quite effective in pre-period combat.
>
>I have read opinions that slingers were VERY effective against 
>armoured men.  Any shot used could concuss through armour without 
>needing to penetrate - lead shot beign the most effective.  

There was an article a few years ago in _Scientific American_ a
few years ago.  There is evidence for the sling being lethal
against hardened leather at ranges to about 200 meters (if I
recall correctly).

Most of the Roman military slingers were recruited from the
Balearic Isles.  They seem to have been common in dry, sheep
raising country.  Not to surprising....  Using a sling well takes
*lots* of practice.

>The Portuguese and Spanish used large numbers of peasant slingers well 
>into [eriod (eg 13-1400 -ish), and also a lot of staff slings - 4-5 ft 
>poles with a sling on the end capable of throwing much lager 
>projectiles than hand slings, and to longer ranges, tho' at a slower 
>rate of fire.

The last use of the staff-sling in organized combat that I know
of was during the Spansih Civil War (ca. 1936-39).  They found it
quite effecitve for throwing grenades.  By comparison, there was
an incident involving the English Long Bow early in World War II.
Would have been some time in mid-May 1940.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Sling Info?
Date: 1 Feb 1995 11:54:42 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<From: psepich at nmsu.edu (Peter M. Sepich)>
>Where can I find construction and usage information on slings?
>Pete Sepich

Assuming you are referring to the weapon, I can tell you with a great
deal of confidence that there's not a heck of a lot of information out
there :)

(I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you.  I'm trying to dig up
the citations I've got, but my files have recently been, er, organized...)

In any case, my apologies if this is a bit vague, but this is from memory.

I do recall that there was a Scientific American article about them
some years ago.

The Basic Information falls into a few simple catagories (The Literary 
Evidence, the Archaeological Evidence, Ballistic Physics, and 
Experimentation)
	The Literary Evidence:
		Xenophon describes his slingers as being able to "Out
		distance the best Persian Archers" (who were reputed to
		be the best in the world).
		The Balaeric Slingers were reputed to be able to (as I
		recall) lob multi-pound stones hundreds of yards.
		There is anecdotal evidence that Slingers have been able
		to penetrate armor, shatter swords, and let's not forget
		The Roman General Vegetius indicated that the standard
		for a slinger was the ability to hit a man sized target
		regularly at 600'
		the whole David and Goliath story.
		Any uneducated shepherd can learn to use one in an afternoon.
	The Archaeological Evidence:
		Sling bullets can be found at a huge number of battle 
                sites across the Ancient World (in numbers large enough
		you'd think they were depleated uranium :) ), and it
		appears that while sling projectiles do come in all shapes
		and sizes, there is a serious preference for lead bullets,
		football shaped, about an inch and a half long.
		No examples of slings have survived.
	Ballistic Physics.
		I don't have the formulas with me, but essentially there
		are four variables in Slinging.  The length of the sling,
		how fast you can move the sling, the mass of the bullet,
		and the diameter of the bullet.
		The first two really govern the velocity of the weapon,
		The center two govern the momentum of the bullet.
		The third governs the impact.
	Experimentation.
		When I made my first sling, I made it with 2 1-meter long
		bits of thong and an elkhide pouch.  I tied a know in one
		thong and stitched a loop in the other (basing it on an
		Elizabethan design).  The reason for this was that if I
		could determine the number of revolutions, I could measure
		my "launch velocity" and compare it to my actual range
		(Since a 1 meter radius for the circle meant that the
		circumference for the circle was then 3.14 meters, and the 
		number of revolutions per second * Circumference = vel
		in meters/second (Clever, eh?  Not my Idea.))
		In any case, we have, as yet been unable to achieve sufficient
		revolutions to come anywhere close to Vegetius's standards
		let alone Xenephon's.  Moreover there seems to be a lot
		of trouble with actually HITTING anything :)

	We have tried a number of casting methods: along the side spinning
	and releasing one string (the one with the Knot), over the head
	spinning and releasing one string, and my personal favorite, the
	Baseball cast.  That is, to go through the motions as though throwing
	a baseball, and releasing the string where I'd normally let go
	of the ball. This one definately improved my accuracy.

Ipse mera Eruditissimus,	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
				University of Northkeep
				Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: dnb105 at psu.edu (Ferret)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: re: Sling Info?
Date: Wed, 1 Feb 1995 18:48:20 GMT
Organization: Penn State University

IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson) writes:
There are also many Roman instruments for removong the projectiles from 
slings. These indicate that there was indeed a deep penetration from the 
slung projectiles. As far as accuracy, it would probably be preferable to be 
accurate in elevation (don't whiz them over your enemies head) rather than 
picking out a target from massed formations, similar to a modern machine gun'
s usage.

Ferret

From: hwt at bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sling Info?
Date: 1 Feb 1995 19:00:31 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

I. Marc Carlson <IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu> wrote:
><From: psepich at nmsu.edu (Peter M. Sepich)>
>>Where can I find construction and usage information on slings?
>>Thanks.
>>Pete Sepich

Peter Collingwood's "coffee-table book" The Maker's Hand shows 
one or two modern braided slings. Try the library or a weaver
or two.
-- 
Henry Troup - hwt at bnr.ca (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re Sling Info?
Date: 2 Feb 1995 14:07:05 -0600
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

>There are also many Roman instruments for removong the projectiles from 
>slings. These indicate that there was indeed a deep penetration from the 
>slung projectiles. As far as accuracy, it would probably be preferable to be 
>accurate in elevation (don't whiz them over your enemies head) rather than 
>picking out a target from massed formations, similar to a modern machine gun'
>s usage.

For an interesting discussion of this and related topics, I would like
to suggest that anyone who's never read _From Sumer to Rome, the military
capabilities of ancient armies" by Richard Gabriel and Karen Metz consider
placing it on their reading list.  I do not always agree with their 
conclusions, but they do contain much to think about.

They suggest that it takes 90 ft-lbs (over an area of an inch) to fracture
the front of the human skull; 18 ft-lbs to fracture the zygomatic region of
the skull, and less than 2 ft-lbs to penetrate the unprotected viscera.  This
is in contrast to US Army studies that estimate that it requires 58 ft-lbs
(over an undefined area) to do minimal damage.

They suggest that a person with a 2.5' sling can toss the stone no faster
than 120 feet per second yielding 13.5 ft-lbs of energy (with a 500 grain shot).
A bit of simple math tells me that's 15.2 rotations per second, which is more
than the 12 revolutions that comprised by best attempt.  If I remember the
formula correctly, and I doubt I did, that's 1440 yards MAXIMUM range.

However, they also suggest that it requires 66-137 ft-lbs to penetrate 2 mm of
bronze plating, and 110 228 ft-lbs to penetrate iron plating of an equivalent
thickness.

In any case, that's insufficent to do much damage, unless the bullets hit
in a few specific locatations (fleshy bits, unprotected by too many bones,
and NO armor).

Ipse mera Eruditissimus,	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
				University of Northkeep
				Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: REQ: info on slings
Date: 3 Oct 1996 11:49:51 -0400

<Rob<brainjunky at aol.com (BrainJunky)>>
>Not a member of SCA, but figured I could get info here.

Lots, and Lots.  Some of it might even pertain to your question.

>I'm looking for data regarding the construction and use of the sling,
>namely for hunting small game.

I've made some slings, but have never used them for hunting.
Since I was experimenting with speeds and velocities, I constructed
my sling to generate a 1 meter arc.  The actual length of your sling 
will depend on your preference.  The longer they are, the more energy
they will take to move (although *if* you can get a decent speed up
in rotations per second, you can start coming up with some serious
speed).

The Basic Sling, as far as I can tell, requires two lengths of
lacing (I use leather, but there is no material here that is absolutely
mandatory.  It should just be strong enough to take the strain on it,
and flexible enough to move about without a lot ofuncontrolled stretching).
One lave should be a few inches longer than the other.  Take the longer lace,
and loop one end back a few inches and attach it (I sew mine in place, but
all that matters is that it not come apart).  Take the other lace and tie a
small knot in one end.  The two untouched ends of the laces are now the
"Middle", and you will attach the "pocket" to them.

The pocket is made from some slightly stretchy but strong material.  I use
a small 2"x3" rectangle of deerskin.  How you attach your pocket to your 
laces is up to you.  I will describe what *I* do, but please don't think
for a second, I'm suggesting it's The Only Way.

              ------------------------------------
              |                                  |
              |                                  |
===============*********                *********=============================
              |                                  |
              |                                  |
              ------------------------------------

Sew the laces along the long axis of the deerskin (on the back) about 
an inch or so in.
Fold the corners of the rectangle in, so that the short ends are next to
the laces.  Sew them down. (actually, if you fold them before you sew down
the lace, you can do it all at once and limit the number of holes you make
in your leather.  I've done it both ways, neither is "better").  Run a seam
along the folded corners to flatten the folds and strengthen them. You may
want to run a stitch along the outside edges to further minimize overall
stretching.  It's your choice, although if you forsee actually using
this sling for a long time, it becomes a bit more advisable.

That's it.

Slingstones in antiquity (at least in WARs) averaged about 1.5cm x 3 cm,
and were of almond shaped lead.  I'd look for rocks that match this 
general configuration, although I've found golf balls are just dandy for
basic target practice, particularly since they are easier to find when you
go to pick up after yourself.

To use it, you place your index finger through the loop (or thumb, or
whatever finger works best for you), and hold the knot between your thumb
and index finger.

There are three basic styles of casting the bullet.  One involves a spinning
(centered about waist level), one spinning over your head, and the one I
prefer, a modified baseball pitch (for some reason, when I spin them, I get
the laces tangled, although other people who use these same basic techniques
don't).  What that means is that I "throw" the bullet as though I were 
throwing a baseball, releasing the knot I'm holding between my thumb and
index finger at the same place I would if I were throwing a fastball.  The 
speed of my bullet is based on the speed of my pitch, and I have the added
benefit of being able to aim.

It doesn't really matter what style of cast you use, since once the "bullet"
leaves the sling, physics takes over.

Now we get to the exciting part of recreating historical weapons.  Because
the amount of damage is based on the energy of the bullet, you have some
variables to play with, i.e., the mass of the bullet, the diameter of the
bullet, and the speed of the bullet.  Since you want a high mass, low 
diameter, and high speed, lead has been a traditional material for 
maximizing the first two of these variables.  The speed is controlled 
by the diameter of the arc the sling creates, and the speed of rotation
(it's hard to estimate the speed of rotation with the pitching cast, 
however; although my arc is increased by the added length of my arm).
Using a one meter long sling (just as an example, mind you) if I manage 
6 rotations per second (which isn't too bad for a beginner), the bullet
is traveling 6.28+ meters (2piR) six times a second, for a "muzzle velocity"
of 37.68 meters per second.  Depending on the mass and diameter of your
bullet, you will get an impact energy ranging from "Pathetic" to "Pitiful".
With practice this may improve, but my advice is not to go hunting bear
with a sling, and actually sticking to birds and small rodents until you
are pretty good.

The reports from history of people who can shatter steel, throw at ranges
longer than Persian Elite Archers, are, if not exaggerations, clearly based
on trained professional athletes.  This may be why the Romans hired slingers,
rather than waste time teaching their basic troops.

The best source (in fact, the last time I checked, the only REAL source)
to discuss the sling is:

Korfmann, Manfred. "The sling as a weapon." _Scientific American_ 229, no.4
     (October 1973), pp34-42.

There is a further description, and discussion of some experiments done with
them (and other ancient weapons) in:

Gabriel, Richard A, and Karen Metz. From Sumer to Rome, the Military
     Capabilities of Ancient Armies.  New York: Greenwood Press, 1991.

Although they start their work in Korfmann's article.

Good luck.

I. Marc Carlson, Reference Librarian    |LIB_IMC at CENTUM.UTULSA.EDU
Tulsa Community College, West Campus LRC|Sometimes known as:
Reference Tech. McFarlin Library        | Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn 
University of Tulsa, 2933 E. 6th St.    | University of Northkeep 
Tulsa, OK  74104-3123 (918) 631-3794    | Northkeepshire, Ansteorra

From: brainjunky at aol.com (BrainJunky)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Slings- a follow up
Date: 26 Oct 1996 00:28:03 -0400

A few weeks ago I posted a request on slings.

Got about 5 responses.

Went and made a sling out of denim from an old pair of jeans (dungarees as
my mom used to say!) Just cut it out to shape.

Have been using old cassette tapes from my dictaphone as the projectile.
They fit nicely into the cradle and make a big noise. Not bad aerodynamics
also.

I start with an underhand swing to get speed then I go over hand in a loop
above my head. Then release.

And you know what, Those buggers can really fly.

Also, accuracy is not that bad. I have a tendency to go high. But, other
than that I'm consistently hitting a 1 and 1/2 ft square at 30 paces. I
suspect that slings don't require the years of practice that is often
stated.

Anyway, saw that riot in Fla. on TV. Those peasants could really have used
some slings. That would have kicked those cops butts!

Give it a try. It's lots of fun. Quite satisfying also. let me know your
results.

In the meanwhile I'm going to get to work on a real leather sling as well
as a slingstaff.

Rob

From: mjbr at tdk.dk (Michael Bradford)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Slings- a follow up
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 07:40:27 GMT
Organization: Tele Denmark

If you want a sling with a greater range and a larger projectile, try
a staff sling. Using one will take even less training as it can only
fly in one direction (I've stood behind folk who were trying their
first few casts with a sling :)  ).

To make one, take a staff about 1m long (remember the greater the
length, the longer the possible range, but you have to move your hands
between the two ends in use) and cut a short slot in the end. Make a
pouch similar to the "normal" sling, but with shorter cords. Fix
firmly one of the cords to the staff just below the slot and fix some
sort of button (short rod) across the end of the other cord. This must
allow the cord to be easily released from the slot when used, but not
to fall out after loading.

To use, place the projectile (a half brick?) into the pouch and place
the free cord in the slot. Grasp the end of the staff with the
handsabove the head and the staff running down the middle of the back.
Swing the staff forward and up, as you bring your hands forward and
down. If everything is set up right, the projectile will fly off in
front of you. If not,  then check the resistance between the free cord
and the slot (which may need enlarging).

The last time that I know for certain that this weapon was used in war
was in the Spanish Civil War (circa 1936) and was used to throw hand
grenades further than normal. There is a news photograph of one in
use.

Enjoy. :)
Michael

From: Russ Holmes <Haldan at datasync.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Slings-  follow up #2
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:17:02 -0600

Michael Bradford wrote:
> If you want a sling with a greater range and a larger projectile, try
> a staff sling. <SNNIP>

Try out the following URL for detailed drawings and instructions for 
a Staff sling.

http://www.datasync.com/~haldan/athanor
==========================================================
Haldan Shieldwrecker,Barony of Osprey,Kingdom of Meridies

From: "Ballard, Lynn" <Lynn.Ballard at UNISYS.com>
To: "'lindahl at pbm.com'" <lindahl at pbm.com>
Subject: The venerable handsling
Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 15:25:04 -0600

I was just cruising through the list of coment on the sling as weapon.
I have hobbied with slings since childhood.  I even published an article
on making and using the handsling in Mother Earth News in 1984 or so
(sorry, I have the copy at home but not here at work).  Korfmann's
article was published in Scientific American about December 1972 (sorry
again, my copy is at home).

The baseball throw is superior to the "whirl around the head"  and
underhand method of throwing. The throwing hand is held to the chest
with the pouch in the extended "aiming" arm.  The projectile takes one
helical orbit back, over the head and behind the back of the thrower.
The throwing hand falls behind the head like a quarterback's.  At the
same time the thrower steps forward and throws overhand, releasing like
a baseball.  The trajectory is low and fast but can be adjusted for
distance.  No twirling is involved.  I can throw a good rock 500 feet on
a good day.

Subject: slings
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 99 12:01:25 MST
From: "cbaedit" <cbaedit at gtii.com>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

I've been reading some of the archived material on the velocity of a
missile launched by a sling. There seems to be a tendency to estimate the
velocity of the missile by the number of revolutions per minute of the
sling. What is not taken into consideration is the snap of the wrist
used by some slingers to launch the missile. The effect is much like that
of the tip of a whip when you snap it, the tip is going fast enough to
break the sound barrier, hence the "cracking" sound.

I have never been able to cast a stone, the size of a small hen's egg, much
beyond a 100 yards, but up to sixty yards, the impact of the stone is
impressive; I believe that within the sixty yard range, the stone would
shatter an arm bone.

Ron Fortier

Subject: Re: slings
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 12:01:02 MST
From: "cbaedit" <cbaedit at gtii.com>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

I made my first sling about four years ago to throw tennis balls for my
bird dog. I had thrown my arm out pitching them for her and figured a sling
would eliminate any additional aches and pain. At first the balls went
every which way, mostly straight up. The dog enjoyed it and got so she
would start running after the ball as soon as the sling came in to motion.
Eventually I reached the point where, when she started to run, I could put
the tennis ball just over her head so it would land about twenty feet in
front of her. Distance was not great, only about fifty feet but we both
enjoyed it. I enjoyed it so much I started carrying the sling on our daily
walk which takes us pass a site used by the country road commission to
store gravel. I started slinging stones for distance and ended up trying to
improve my accuracy.

I've tried  twirling the sling to see if accuracy improved over using a
single rotation and a snap release, but it didn't. I use a throw that can
best be described as a combination of a side arm/under hand throw ---
similar  to throwing  a baseball. The sling (thongs about 25 inches long)
hangs vertically, allowed to rock slightly to the rear, then brought
forward in a complete circle, coming up and across the body diagonally for
the release. Accuracy in the horizontal plane (left and right of point of
aim) is good; my accuracy in the vertical plane needs work. I could hit a
man at forty yards, but it probably be somewhere between the head and the
groin. Multiple twirls and a simple release have never given the distance
or force achieved with a single rotation and a snap release.

I recently watched a History Channel special on the sling. The
demonstration of its use, shown during a battle recreation, can best be
described as pathetic, not worth further discussion.

I have seen a number of TV news cuts from the Middle East showing young
Palestinians using slings to harass Israeli troops. They use an overhand
throw, putting everything they have behind it on the release; much like a
pitcher snapping his wrist when he releases a baseball. I don't know
accurate the Palestinians are, but the force and distance they get must be
very impressive. This summer I tried the overhand throw but had little
success with it. Unfortunately further practice won't be practical until
the spring thaw which in Northern Michigan won't be until the end of March.

Ron Fortier

Subject: RE: ANST - Combat slings at Gulf Wars?
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 99 15:44:37 MST
From: "Christopher D. Baran" <rrhms at texoma.net>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Last year I was allowed to sling during Gulf Wars.  I have been
using a sling in the SCA for about 6 years now and have found that using a
regular split tennis ball I can get as great a range as an archer, though
not as great as accuracy.  I am able to hit a man sized target at about 35
yards (when I am in practice).  Meridies has a set of rules for the creation
of slings.  They may only be of a certain length due to the amount of power
the weapon generates.  As for them being accepted in this Kingdom, I believe
they are able to be used on a case by case basis.  (Keef, please tell me if
I am wrong on this)  Besides myself I do not know of any other slingers in
the Kingdom.  I would be happy to show you my sling at Gulf Wars since I
will be going and slinging there.

        Centurion Romanius

Subject: Re: slings
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 99 19:23:21 MST
From: "cbaedit" <cbaedit at gtii.com>
To: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Just a comment on the maximum effective range of a sling. It takes
considerable effort to sling a golf ball size stone a measured 100 yards. I
would consider a throw of 150 yards an outstanding achievement and one of
200 yards almost impossible. I would like some one to prove me wrong.

The more I use the sling the more I believe some of the stories concerning
the skill of ancient slingers to be romantic nonsense; the same applies to
the long bow. I don't doubt that certain bowmen and slingers excelled over
others, but I believe that, at long distances, both the sling and the bow
were effective primarily as barrage weapons, with massive flights of
missiles and arrows doing indiscriminate damage to the enemy.

I just finished reading Robert Hardy's book "Long Bow" which gives some
absurd accounts of the long distance accuracy of the English bowmen. One
comment by Prince Louis Napoleon referenced in the book states: "Prince
Louis Napoleon considered that a first rate English archer who, in a single
minute, was unable to draw and discharge his bow 12 times with a range of
240 yards and who in these 12 shots once missed his man, was very lightly
esteemed." Mr. Hardy did not question the validity of the statement,
lending credence to it; however, Louis Napoleon lived during the 1800's so
he had no first hand knowledge of the capability of an English archer.
Consistently hitting a man size target at 240 yards with an arrow from a
bow is wishful thinking.

As you read further into Mr. Hardy's book, he documents the massive number
of arrows fired during the battles of Crecy and Angincourt by the English.
Even with the slaughter that entailed, the arrow count and the body count
indicates that there was a extremely high percentage of misses.

I have been an avid rifle shooter for the last 25 years, expending
thousands of rounds of ammo every year. Once thing I have learned, is the
average shooter cannot judge distance; most estimate the range to be double
what it actually is. I imagine those who observed and recorded the feats of
bowmen and slingers suffered from the malady.

Ron

Subject:
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:16:21 -0700
From: "Ralland J. Fortier" <ronloisf at gtii.com>
To: "Mark Harris" <stefan at texas.net>

Mark,

Accuracy with the sling continues to improve; at least enough to make some
comments that might be of use to others.

Weight of the missile is more critical than I originally believed. Any
throw that incorporates some horizontal motion of the sling will (for a
right handed thrower) send a missile that is too light to the left of the
thrower's aim, and a missile that is to heavy to the right. Smooth missiles
are an absolute necessity. Any rough edges or spots will cause the object
to snag on release and God only knows where it will go. I would give
anything for an unlimited supply of golf balls.

Ron

Subject:
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1999 15:25:15 -0700
From: "Ralland J. Fortier" <ronloisf at gtii.com>
To: "Mark Harris" <stefan at texas.net>

Mark,

Tried a staff sling the other day; it wasn't worth the effort, no
improvement in accuracy and considerably less distance.

I had been using a sling with 25" lines and one of the strings finally wore
through so I replaced both of them. I use braided boot laces and instead of
using laces salvaged from old boots, I bought a set of 72" laces and simply
cut one in half. By the  time I attached the lines to the pocket, made a
finger loop in one line and adjusted the other, the strings measured 34
inches. The longer strings improved accuracy considerably, primarily
because I didn't have to whip the sling as hard to get the required
distance.

Ron Fortier

Subject:
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 14:40:54 -0700
From: "Ralland J. Fortier" <ronloisf at gtii.com>
To: "Mark Harris" <stefan at texas.net>

Mark,

Last Christmas my wife gave me a book, "The Sling" by Cliff Savage
(probably a pseudonym).
The text is a very basic explanation of the sling and its uses. It does,
however, contain a bibliography with one interesting item, an article "The
Sling as a Weapon" which was published in the October 1973 issue of
Scientific American.  So far I have not been able to obtain a copy of the
article. Do you have a source?

Ron

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:55:02 MST
From: Marc Carlson <marc-carlson at utulsa.edu>
Subject: ANST - Re: Slings
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Slings and their effectiveness are one of those curious historical mysteries.
There are anecdotal historical reports of sling bullets shattering metal
armor, instantly killing, and so on.  Xenophon reported that his slingers were able  to "Out distance the best Persian Archers" (who were reputed to be the best in the world).  The Balaeric slingers were reputed to be able to lob multi-pound stones hundreds of yards. The Roman General Vegetius declared that the
standard for a slinger was the ability to hit a man sized target regularly at 600'.  Then there's that whole David and Goliath thing, and the assumption that any uneducated shepherd can learn to use one in an afternoon.

Archaeologically speaking, sling bullets can be found in massive quantities at 
a huge number of battle sites across the Ancient World.  While there is evidence
that sling projectiles were in all shapes and sizes, it's pretty clear that 
the preference was for an inch and a half football of lead.  A few slings
have survived.

So how dangerous are they really?  From some basic experimentation and simple
physics, there are four variables to how much force the bullet will strike at:
the Sling's length, how fast fast you are spinning the sling, the mass of the 
bullet, and the diameter of the bullet.  These determine the velocity, and mass
(i.e. the Force of impact) and the impact area.  There are other, lesser variables, such as drag, but these are the critical ones.

The first sling, I made, and still the one I use for experimentation purposes,
was from 2 1-meter long bits of thong and an elkhide pouch.  I tied a knot in 
one thong and stitched a loop in the other (basing it on an Elizabethan design).
The reason for the length was to give a simple, easy to measurement to help 
determine velocity (1 meter radius for a circle, spun 10/second = 31/4 m/s).

The velocity needed to match Vegetius's standards, much less Xenophon's are 
beyond my skills, although for me the easiest way to actually hit anything is 
to use a baseball throw :)

Since I'm not planning on going into combat, my question is somewhat academic, but what are they allowing for sling use?  I strongly doubt the golf-balls I
practice with are going to be allowed :)

Marc/Diarmaid

Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 12:56:17 MST
From: "Christopher D. Baran" <rrhms at texoma.net>
Subject: RE: ANST - Slings
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Wow!  A lot of great talk about slings and what they can do.  The only
problem that I see with your argument is that the majority of slingers in a
combat situation didn't use rocks, they used shaped metal shot (either
bronze, brass or lead).  The shot was formed into the shape of a football
and was designed to penetrate armor.  This was so effective that the Romans
had entire groups of auxiliary that were slingers.  A practiced slinger can
consistently hit a 5X5 inch square with 10 shots.  Shot thrown by a sling
was powerful enough to penetrate a bronze breastplate and unhorse the person
it struck.

	Unlike the slings used in the SCA which have a maximum length, period
slingers used slings 6' long or so.  The longer the length of the sling the
more power is transferred into the shot.  A small heavy object is much
easier to aim than a large light object.  This is a reason why so many
people are "bad" at slinging in the SCA.  As I have used both real and SCA
slings I would love to be able to chunk ball bearings at my enemy...unfortunately they don't fly as well with duct tape!  (Humor
alert!!)

	Lastly, as I said before, slings were very popular with the Roman army who
faced people wearing pretty much what we are supposed to be:  Chain mail,
open faced helm, gambison.  Must have been pretty darn effective to stay in
use virtually unchanged for 1000 years or so.

	As for calling the blows, with the above information, I would say if it
didn't penetrate your armor it would incapacitate the person being hit,
especally in the torso or limbs.  Think about being shot and for some reason
the bullet didn't penetrate the skin.  I wouldn't say it would penetrate the
sides or back of a helm everytime, or even the majority of the time, but you
would have one heck of a headache.

Centurion Romanius

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:41:37 MST
From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>
Subject: Re: ANST - Slings
To: Ansteorra <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

I sent a note to Duke Lloyd, one of the finest historical warfare scholars
I know, and asked his opinion of slinging.

Here is his answer:
> The problem is what type of slingers are you talking about.
> Rhodian slingers outranged Persian archers and used lead slugs which could
> concuss through heavy hoplite armor. Against our armor I am afraid it would
> work. Why were they not still used? Same answer to the question of why the
> French never had domestic longbowmen. Long training for little gain. Slingers
> are not as effective as crossbows which start becoming the primary missile
> weapon of the middle ages after about 1100 ad
> Only the English were able to train people in the use of a weapon requiring a
> lot of time. One thing people also forget is that the longbowmen were only
> effective in concert with the men at arms. Slingers take a long time to
> train, hence the Rhodian and Balearic slingers being so famous. In the end
> Slingers were about equal to all archers short of the power of the longbow
> are the range of the Turkish composite.
>
> Of course I have all ways held that arrows are considered too powerful in our
> fighting anyway. Roman gladiator archers were not the all time conqueror in
> the coliseums.
>
> Lloyd

Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2000 10:58:53 MST
From: "Russell Husted" <husted at hotmail.com>
Subject: ANST - sling sites
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

http://usasn.com/~lbt/slings.html
http://www.artrans.com/rmsg/_newsgroups/huntisl1.htm
http://www.crl.com/~mjr/thrower.html

no garenties on quality of reading.
mahee

Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 13:47:04 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - slingshots/slings

There's several really cool pictures of slingshots in the Masijewski
(sp?) Bible- a famous 13th century manuscript that you will recognize
when you see it- the iconography is very familiar because it gets
re-drawn alot... I also have a vague memory of a kid with a slingshot
going after a bird in the Luttrell Psalter...

'Lainie

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Slings
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 23:33:39 -0600
From: "STEVE K ROURKE" <SROURKE at prodigy.net>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

>    New Question: Can anybody provide me some online source information
>about period or pre-period use of the sling, particularly the historical
>weapon's dimensions in size and effectiveness?  My very limited initial
>attempt did not yield up much information regarding it, and I was
>thinking of using it in a non-SCA presentation of information.
>
>    Valstarr

While not an on-line source, If you can find a copy of T.I. # 123, it has an
article on the subject.

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: OT bullet was [Sca-cooks] Numbers, pates, and spreads...
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 15:29:29 -0600

> So, what is this "bullet" thing you have?  Is it a
> small bull, or a short Papal utterance?
>
> Huette

Tsk.  That doesn't work, bullets pre-date firearms.  Basically, it is a
round shot originally used in slings.  It derives from "boulette," a
dimuntive of the Old French "boule" or "ball" originally derived from the
Latin "bulla."

Bear

Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2005 23:43:09 -0400
From: "Daniel  Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] slings
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> That is the example of sling use which many people think of, but to
> bring this back to medieval times, the sling was also used throughout
> the Middle Ages for both hunting and in combat. I doubt that most of
> [us] would be good enough with it to get supper with one, though. :-)

The hand sling was, if I am not mistaken, traditionally a rural
peasant/poacher's weapon used to bag small game, i.e. the occasional
squirrel, rabbit etc.  Sort of a medieval 22.  Yes it would require practice
to use effectively but I would think that a bored sheepherder, pigherder,
cattleherder etc. would have plenty of time to achieve reasonable
proficiency as well as the incentive to do so if only to supplement his
diet.   Of course hand chunking a smooth creek stone might be nearly as
effective given sufficient practice.  Be that as it may I seem to recall
reading that clay sling bullets have been found at battle sites in the
middle east.  Does anyone recall any specific references?

There was a short article I read quite a few years back written by a fellow
over in Meridies regarding the staff sling as a instrument of war.
Essentially it was apparently a "hand trebuchet" peasant levy weapon which,
if used in mass fire mode, could presumedly interdict a specified area of
effect with a substantial hail of projectiles.  Intuitively it would seem to
have been less effective than massed arrow fire, albeit requiring less
training and expense, yet questions remain in my mind as to maximum
effective range vs. presumed appropriate projectile weights.  Does anyone
recall any specific references?

Daniel

Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 10:54:48 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] slings
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Am Sonntag, 5. Juni 2005 05:43 schrieb Daniel Phelps:

> The hand sling was, if I am not mistaken, traditionally a rural
> peasant/poacher's weapon used to bag small game, i.e. the occasional
> squirrel, rabbit etc.  Sort of a medieval 22.  Yes it would require
> practice to use effectively but I would think that a bored sheepherder,
> pigherder, cattleherder etc. would have plenty of time to achieve reasonable
> proficiency as well as the incentive to do so if only to supplement his
> diet.   Of course hand chunking a smooth creek stone might be nearly as
> effective given sufficient practice.  Be that as it may I seem to recall
> reading that clay sling bullets have been found at battle sites in the
> middle east.  Does anyone recall any specific references?

I am still looking for references to clay projectiles, but throughot the
ancient world you find lead ones (the Romans called the 'glandes' - acorns -
because of their shape). Xenophon describes how these were much worse than
arrows because if they hit unarmored flesh they would penetrate and the wound
close after them...

> There was a short article I read quite a few years back written by a fellow
> over in Meridies regarding the staff sling as a instrument of war.
> Essentially it was apparently a "hand trebuchet" peasant levy weapon which,
> if used in mass fire mode, could presumedly interdict a specified area of
> effect with a substantial hail of projectiles.  Intuitively it would seem
> to have been less effective than massed arrow fire, albeit requiring less
> training and expense, yet questions remain in my mind as to maximum
> effective range vs. presumed appropriate projectile weights.  Does anyone
> recall any specific references?

I don't, but these guys might
http://www.slinging.org./

Giano

Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2005 11:31:20 -0400
From: rbbtslyr <rbbtslyr at comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] slings
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I know in the hands of an expert, from hearing old timers tell it, that 
a sling could bring down up to deer size game at close range and at a 
reasonable range a catamount (mountain lion) and similar size animals. 
The slings add quite a bit of force compared to tossing a stone and a 
round clay or lead ball would be more accurate and could be 
devastating. It works on the same principal as a spear chucker or 
Attalia (sp?) and makes the weapon quite effective.  Modern slingshots 
with surgical rubberbands aren't nearly as effective.

Kirk

From: "Sher M" <runa.herd at earthlink.net>
Date: July 29, 2011 9:11:00 AM CDT
To: "Ansteorra" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Ansteorra] Fw: Questions regarding slings & Tavern Fights

I had searched the manuals online but apparently missed the no sling rule which is why I asked.  Thanks for the things I missed, it was late, my eyes had started seeing elephants, so I wrote to the Knowledge Base of Ansteorra, the list.  

We had a Guild Together a few weeks ago and someone brought a sling they had made along with a bucket of rocks.  We killed the water lillies in the lake until we ran out of store bought rocks (sigh no free ones laying around on the ground).  His sling was long enough to twirl around his head.  I discovered that method did not work for me, I use a baseball throw style.  I can see how the longer ones could be dangerous by wrapping around someone's neck.  So being the curious person I am, I went home and experimented with various materials to make the sling (woven) and the length that worked for me.  Even downloaded a TIAT video off youtube to see exactly how his sling was made.

Not wanting to drop a rock on my head or recovering surgery shoulder or hit the dogs, I experimented with "rocks".  A hard rubber ball is dangerous (missed the truck but dented a trashcan).  Forget a Kong ball, way lethal if you throw it on your foot.  Tennis balls bounce.  A regular size Nerf type football was too big even cut in half for the sling.  But the small ones with the pointy ends squished and taped resoundingly are great.  That is how I also got to Tavern weapons.  Once you start taping them they resemble vegetables.  And having a twisted mind, well you see from my message where my mind went.  I have seen an authorized fish for Tavern Fights.  I'm now considering a cat, love the magnet idea it is so stolen now.

Slings (with appropriate non-lethal "rocks") would be an excellent distraction to allow archers to reload or help Armored Combat take out a wall.  The lead projecticles used with slings that I came across in research were seriously lethal even to armor.  Slings were also (a) period and (b) used on the battle field both on foot and horseback.  I'd love to talk some of the fighters into gearing up and seeing what if anything they felt when hit with the nerf rock.  It's one of those deals where now I'm curious and my brain is going to bounce off the walls until it is satisfied.  

Slings have been used in other SCA groups, at least in a particular battle setup (amazing what you find when it's not quite what you're looking for).

So when in doubt take it to the Kingdom list and ask.  

Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd
Barony of Raven's Fort
Knight Marshal
Apprentice to Mistress Shanahan
Bronze, Tidal Thunder
Amazon Household

From: Bill Tait <arwemakere at gmail.com>
Date: July 29, 2011 1:21:19 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Questions regarding slings & Tavern Fights

Slings are specifically not legal.

From Society Marshal Handbook, VII A 13:

13. No missile weapons intended to simulate firearms, slings, slingstaffs,nor Atlatl's can be used on the field
of Armored Combat

And in all honesty, a period-used sling was most lethal against rabbits than armored fighters. (Except possibly to the face).

I believe one of the reasons for disallowing slings is one of safety. Thecord could either enter a bar grille, or wrap around a throat.

William Arwemakere

From: Richard Culver <rbculver at sbcglobal.net>
Date: July 29, 2011 8:46:17 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Questions regarding slings & Tavern Fights

Greetings, Lady Runa!

    I am glad you brought this sling topic up, as I have thought about it as well.  For me, at the very least, I would like to see it added to the Thrown Weapons competitions as it is very much a medieval weapon skill.  Now militarily, the sling dropped out of favor in most place in armies by the late Roman period, mostly because they were no longer just running up against unarmored barbarian warbands anymore, but Rome did have cohorts of nothing but slingers and were known to be effective, but usually in the early period of Rome.  That said throughout the period, slings were well tested hunting weapons; the sort of thing anybody could use as long as they could find rocks.  A slinger is depicted on the Bayeaux Tapestry either hunt for or just clearing birds.  My guess is anyone who grew up with one became a damn good shot in a matter of time and continued use would make you not want to be in the way of their shot.  So again I think using them in thrown weapons tourneys could and should be acceptable, perhaps using golf balls as slugs, which having some loud color choices would make them easy to find and clean up of a field.

  Now that said staff slings were still used for combat in the middle ages, having seen some manuscripts depicting it, especially in sieges, either from a defenders vantage or an attackers.  Given that staff sling could easily in reality throw something the size of a large brick or garden rock, roughly like the 4 tennis ball pyramid Stefan talked about already used, I really do not see why it wouldn't be worth getting a rule change on that.  I would just use similar rule for any trebuchet or catapult, save that you could move much more across the field.  Limiting proximity to the fight (you can't point blank with a ballista either if recall correctly) should be enough.  I don't care what kind of armor you are in a 5-10 pound rock being hurled at about 20-30 mph or from above on a defensive wall is going to hurt you and even likely kill you as their helm were not nearly as thick during most of the period as what we require for safety.  That way our enemies could suffer the slings and arrows of Ansteorran fortune. ;)

   I'd be willing to write off-list with you and anyone else interested in perhaps bring this skill into the Society.  I admit I am looking at it as something to do during fighting events where archery contests re present as I cannot afford the gear for archery right now.  Even if I could, slinging looks like a blast and is simply to make and use after a little practice. 

Wihtric, who hopefully will be more active this coming fall

From: "Sher M" <runa.herd at earthlink.net>
Date: July 29, 2011 9:42:50 AM CDT
To: "Ansteorra" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Questions regarding slings & Tavern Fights

I'm game.  The overhead thing takes lots of practice just to not drop the rock much less throw it.  We hid behind bushes and trees when we were at the lake.

With a baseball type throw I had almost immediate gratification making it go where I wanted it to go.  If it could be done safely it would be a great addition.

Lady Runa of The Thundering Herd

From: Richard Culver <rbculver at sbcglobal.net>
Date: July 29, 2011 9:27:48 AM CDT
To: Doug Copley <doug.copley at gmail.com>
Cc: "Inc. Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Questions regarding slings & Tavern Fights

I get what you are saying, but it does not mean that working toward guidelines and such is not a worthwhile goal.  Besides from all the slinging sites I have read and watch video from, most of the fear of wild shot would be from those who think it is spinning the sling like a helicopter and then just letting go, which to e effective, it is not.  Most style are a simple hold out in front and snap either underhand or, preferably, overhand as if throwing.  There are Native American styles which involve figure 8's but they are still very controlled.  Again if you train people, like you would with knives, axes, and whatever else, you diminish any concerns.  The helicopter spin, side snap is what most people think is the technique, but it is not.

  I am sure people had similar doubts about safety when live steel weapon throwing first came about.  Still worth trying at some point.  MAybe enough of us interested can get together and come up with things to present.

Wihtric

From: Doug Copley <doug.copley at gmail.com>
<<< As a Thrown Weapons Marshal I would not allow people to come up and use it on my range, due to safety.

If you have someone that does not know what they are doing it is easy to have the "rock" or golf ball go flying straight to the side or even 
behind them if they release at the wrong time.

You would have to have almost a cage (think of a baseball diamond back 
stop , only closed in more) to put them in with only the front open so 
that there was no way they could accidentally hit someone to the side or behind them.

Vincenti >>>

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	slings-msg	Page  of