Title: coins-msg
Subject: medieval coins, making coins.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, coins, period, stamping, casting, money, silver, gold

coins-msg - 1/10/08

Period coins, making coins. Sources for info and coin metals.

NOTE: See also the files: measures-msg, measures-art, p-Engsh-coins-lst, p-prices-msg, casting-msg, metals-msg, metal-sources-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Someone asked about period money. Insofar as there is a single coin
on which medieval European monetary systems are based, it is the 
silver penny. The rough equivalent in the Islamic world is the
dirhem. The silver penny was originally 1/240th of a roman pound of
silver--between one and two grams. The dirhem is a bit over three
grams. Both were also used as units of weight. 

I can suggest two approaches to the problem of money in the SCA. The
ambitious one, which I hope someone will someday do, would be to mint
and put into circulation a real silver coinage, based on dirhems or
pennies at their historical weight. At present prices I think a
dirhem would have about fifty cents worth of silver in it, a silver
penny about twenty-five cents. You would monetize the coin at about
twice that--treat a dirhem as a dollar or a penny as fifty cents.
That way the value as money is enough above the bullion value so no
likely fluctuation in the price of silver will make the coins worth
melting down (although, judging by recent history, that may be
optimistic--maybe you should play safe by making the penny a dollar,
which is also tidier). You get them to circulate at the nominal value
by offering to sell or buy them at that value, so if a merchant
accepts your pennies, he knows he can bring them back to you to be
traded back into dollars. This technique for keeping a token coin
(face value higher than intrinsic value) in circulation is, I
believe, slightly out of period--perhaps seventeen century. If one
could do it and make it work, it would make events feel noticably
more real--many people buying and selling with period money.

A much simpler approach, which I use and which seemed to be implied
by the posting asking about this, is to use dollars as units of
exchange but period money as units of account. I routinely quote
prices in dirhem and accept payment in dollars at one for one. If
people do not understand what a dirhem is I look puzzled, explain
that it is the common money of the civilized world, and if necessary
pull a real dirhem out of my purse to show them. Somewhere in the
process I manage to convey the fact that I have found the green
banker's notes used hereabouts will buy me a dirhem weight in silver,
and therefore accept them. Given the opportunity, I can also slide
into the story of how the dirhem and dinar first came to be minted.

The use of units of account different from units of exchange,
incidentally, is a period practice. Accounts were kept in pounds for
some centuries before pounds existed. Originally, a pound meant a
pound of silver pennies (240). As the penny was debased, royal
treasurers and the like could have kept that meaning, and
successively learned to multiply and divide by 245, 262, 270 ... .
Instead they used "pound" to mean "the number of silver pennies that
used to weight a pound--240." Similarly, in Italy later on, there
were a number of coins that existed in two forms with different
values. A real florin was a gold coin, a florin of account was a
particular number of silver coins that had been worth that gold coin
at some point in the past. 

Anyone interested in these subjects, by the way, may want to look at
a fascinating little book by Carlo Cipolla called "Money, Prices and
Civilization in the Mediterranean World."

David Friedman (Cariadoc)

Date: 24 May 90 16:34:20 GMT
Organization: Society for Creative Anachronism

Silver coinage:  The US governemnt reserves for itself the right to mint money,
that is to say, "legal tneder for all debts public and private".  Anybody can
mint up a coin and anybody can accept it as payment, but they cannot be forced
to accept it.  One cannot use privately minted coins to pay one's taxes, for
example.  Likewise many merchants may not accept the coins, preferring
something backed with a little more authority and greater circulation. Various
poeople in the United States have pritned a circulated money backed by various
valuable items.  One fellow circluated coins backed by beer.  In his town they
were actually pretty widely accepted among merchants (but not government
agencies) because he had a repuation for rock solid integrity. Likewise,
employers may not force their employees to accept non-US moneys as wages.  In
the 19th century this was a common abuse of the working class: they would be
paid in "coupons" which were only good at the company store, at company
prices. Unions reformed this habit.  

I think the dangers of trying to circulate a "real" currency for SCA use would
prove more than a bunch of amateurs could handle.  SCA is not a wealthy
organization, we don't have the wherewithall to back a currency and keep its
price stable. I think we would have people discounting and inflating the price
in response to rumours, and that it would be impossible to to protect the
currency against speculation and manipulation.  Governments of nations have
serious problems with maintaining their currency, I think this would be a bad
thing for us to try.  And since we're talking about "MONEY" suddenly its a
serious matter.  Do you really want to risk losing your funds?  People get very
protective of their cash, and get very irate at people they think are
endangering their money.  SCA doesn't need this opportunity for bad feelings.

On the other hand, I have seen limited edition tokens used in various
interesting ways.  At an event everybody arriving was issued a small number of
tokens which they then used to gamble at various period games.  At the end of
games an auction of donated items was held, and the tokens were the cash used to purchase them. As I recall their was also a small flea market of things
people wanted to get rid of.In addition to the tokens people started out with,
they could also purchase additonal tokens.  (This was a fund raising event.)  

I see know problem with games of this sort, or tot he various other alternate
currency schemes I have heard of that were just in jest.  (In one barony,
chocolate chip cookies are legal tender for paying the baronial tax.)  But I
really think we should avoid any serious attempt to make a real coinage.  

Their are other period uses for non legal tender coins.  For example, dower
coins were sometiems struck to by monastic orders and given to members of the
family  of the postulant as a keepsake of the event, and various other
commemerative coins were struck.  Instead of giving out ribbons or other paper
"tickets" a group could strike a commemerative coin that was proof of admission
to an event.  The site fee would have to cover the cost of making the coin.
And perhaps, as a fund raiser, a group might strike and sell commemerative
coins. 

If the coin were to include the term,"SCA, Inc," that would be more than
adequate protection for ignorant purchasers of coins.  On the other hand, if
you don't know what you're buying, you shouldn't buy coins.  So it really
doesn't matter what's on the coins

Minting commerative coins of this sort might prove to be a valuable source of
funds.  I think it would be worth a try.  But please, don't try to make them
legal tender.  

Yours in service,
Awilda Halfdan
bright hills, atlantia
sgj%ctj.uucp at w3ffv.ampr.org

From: Alfgar.Maharg at f666.n107.z1.fidonet.org (Alfgar the Sententious)

  The complaint about "tygers" drove me to whip out my COIN DICTIONARY AND 
GUIDE. "Crowns" were named because they had crowns on them. ("The _ecu a la 
couronne_ .... has a large crown added over the shield.") "Florins" had a 
fleur-de-lis on them. "Scudi" had shields. Someone mentioned "Kreutzer"-- they
bore crosses. We also find the "lions" and "half-lions" of Robert III, the 
"leopards" and "helms" of Edward III, the "unicorns" of James III, the "rose 
nobles" of Edward IV... If the King of the East struck coins, they would 
certainly bear a tyger. Nuf ced.
    Also, the "ducat" was named from an inscription referring to "iste
ducatus" 
(this duchy), and the dollar itself is a corruption of "taler", which comes 
from "Joachimstaler", because they came from the silver mines in St. Joachim's

Valley. In short, POPULAR names for coins come and came in the Middle Ages
from just about anything.

 * Origin: BaphoNet (1:107/666)

From: jmike at asylum.SF.CA.US (J. Michael Hammond)
Date: 3 Jul 90 03:56:33 GMT
Organization: The Asylum; Belmont, CA

Greetings all!

For a while now there has been active discussion among several gentles
regarding the establishment of a period style currency, to be backed
by United States currency, for the use of the SCA.  We have collected
a fair amount of information on suppliers, logistics, and legal
constraints, and have reached a point where we intend to open
directed discussion with merchants, officials, lawyers, and investors.

Our discussion is carried out on the mailing list
coinage at asylum.sf.ca.us.  Any interested gentle who wants to
participate in the discussion, now that decisions are going to be
made, is encouraged to join the group.  Send your message to me and I
will add you to the list.  I also have a compilation of the previous
discussion, so you need not feel that you'd be behind the times in
joining.

I remain, as ever,
Damiano della Greccia
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Michael Hammond    2610 Monserat Ave.   Belmont, CA  94002
(415) 594-9268   jmike at asylum.sf.ca.us  ...{decwrl or bionet}!asylum!jmike

From: PSCHROED at DREW.BITNET ("Schroeder, P. David")
Date: 9 Apr 91 20:37:00 GMT

                                        Date:      09-Apr-1991 04:07pm GMT
                                        From:      Schroeder, P. David
                                                   PSCHROED
                                        Dept:
                                        Tel No:    (201)-408-8119

Subject: SCA Coins in A.S. XXII

Good gentles,

All this talk of "home-made" coins in the Society brings back fond memories
of one of my first events, an Eastern Twelfth Night in Myrqwood in the then
principality of Atlantia (mundanely Baltimore, Maryland).

I checked my "treasure chest" and discovered I still had the two coins I
bought back then.  Both appear to be pewter and have a massive feel.  The
smaller is the diameter of a quarter with a raised unicorn and the markings
XXV below it. The reverse is blank. The larger is octagonal, about the size
of a half dollar, has a crown of five points with pearls and a capital "C"
between two horizontal lines. On the reverse is a castle with three towers.

Since Myrqwuud (they could have the name so long as it was never spelled
"Mirkwood" a la Tolkien, and therefore tended to creative spellings) was
and is the heart of our fellow medievalists, Markland, perhaps these are
"crossover" coins.

On a related note, my lady and I were merchants at Pennsic for a number
of years, back when there were less than 2,000 of us there.  For two of those
years we brought $100 in Susie-B's to use for change.  That was back when
the government was actually trying to *encourage* their use and public
awareness of the coin was higher.  Everyone seemed to appreciate getting
back "silver" and a number of other merchants also adopted the practice.

My memories of reading about medieval and renaissance faires says that
the use of checks is VERY period - letters of credit were a standard
form of exchange.  Credit cards are really not that far a stretch.
If some student of the field can add a post on such traditions, it
would be appreciated.  Also - how early is paper money?

Thanks also to the good folk of An Tir for the info on my earlier post.

Yours -  Bertram of Bearington                            PSCHROED at drew.edu

Re: Coining German Coins
Date: 7 Feb 92 
From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: A.I. Chem Lab, University of Arizona

Howdy,  from Tom Peregrin.

	This one ain't gonna be in 15'C speak, because I have to discuss
the US Secret Service, possible Mail Fraud, and US Federal Law.

	I am very glad to hear that you don't want to make exact duplicates
of Mediaeval German coins,  for two reasons;    1)  It is against Federal Law
(US Congress, 1973) to make exact reproductions of coins without the word 
"COPY" in clearly legible letters.   2)  It is a pain for Professional 
Numismatists.

	Some people have been trying to make exact reproductions.  Imagine
the multifold problems:

1)	The coins is originally purchased as a reproduction,  but the info
gets lost.   Maybe somebody gives it to their sweetheart,  and doesn't
stress the fact it is a reproduction.   Or maybe they say; "It is valuable",
meaning "It cost me $20, don't treat it like tin.", as opposed to "It is
authentic and worth $500 or more".   Anyway,  Sweetheart thinks it is the real
thing.  They break up with the giver,  and a few years down the line give it
to Sweetheart #2,  who eventually sells it to a naive collector for $300.

	The collector takes it into a knowledgeable coin dealer,  who may
or may not know it's a fake.  Eventually,  somebody get's stuck with a
fake that they paid a lot of money for.  Not nice.

2)	Some one who is less ethical than above goes to the local stamp 
and coin fair,  and sells the fake for $300 right off the bat,  claiming it
to be original.

3)	A much longer range problem;  metal objects can have a long life
span.  Let us say the coin is a good reproduction.  The coin goes from 
shoebox to bank box, to sock, to coin shop, and finally passes as genuine
in a 100 years or so.  Nobody remembers that it came from the SCA,  or
that the SCA was minting coins way back then (easy to forget in 100 years).
A museum eventually acquires it.   A numismatist/historian decides to
look at the effect of the inflation caused the the failure of the Herring
industry in 1300.   S/he tries to do this by looking at the weight of the
silver coins from that era,  and how many dies were used to strike them
(Each die has a lifetime of about 7,000 - 20,000 coins, depending on
factors).   There are very complex formulae that can be used to estimate
the number of coins minted based on numbers of coins found with dies
and die linkages

	Anyway,  these coins show up that skew the results.  Perhaps
the correct answer would be obvious,  but for the fact that somebody
in 2000 decided to strike a dozen new coins of slightly different weight
and silver content.  Poof,  there goes a historical study.

	It's almost like going to a historical site and spreading fake
artifacts around...

	Anyway,  for these two reasons, and several others,  minting exact
duplicates is not only a bad idea,  but it is against the law.   It is
hard to get the law to do anything about it,  but it is possible.  Mediaeval
Miscillanea sells fake coins.  I wrote to them expressing my concerrns
but I didn't even get a  reply.  I then wrote to the American Numismatic
Society and the American Association of Professional Numismatists,  and 
they are urging me to press charges with the U.S. Secret Service (
counterfeiting  and forgery of non-US monies and antiquities is in their 
baliwick).  I have an appointment later this month to meet with an agent to 
discuss filing a deposition and complaint.   (Hint,  if anybody out there
knows Mediaeval Miscillanea, tell them to answer my letter soon.  I'd rather
not get involved in being a witness for Secret Service and Mail Fraud
charges...)

From: kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu (David Kuijt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SUBJECT- Frankish Coins
Date: 23 Mar 93 21:14:32 GMT
Organization: UMIACS, University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742

Greetings to the Rialto from Dafydd ap Gwystl!

In the hope of shedding some light on the coinage debate:

L.s.d in english coinage (up until recently) were the abbreviations for
the latin of pounds, shillings, and pennies.  Solidus == shilling;
denarus == penny.  This coinage system goes back to Charlemagne, and
is by far the most common coinage system throughout the middle ages
in western europe, although in various permutations.

HOWEVER: this doesn't mean that there was necessarily a shilling coin,
or (even more so) a pound coin, at any given place or time in the
middle ages.  Until the dawn of the renaissance (phrase deliberately
used to avoid being pinned down about dates--I haven't got my books
with me, so I can't be exact) there was generally no shilling coin
in England, and there was no gold coinage at all.  The only coin was
the silver penny.  The penny was nearly pure silver (90% or more,
although this varied slightly) and weighed (generalization alert)
between .9 and 1.5 grams.  The shilling (12 pennies) and the pound
(20 shillings; 240 pennies) were units of account--they did not
represent a coin.  So from charlemagne until late (maybe 15th c?)
there was no shilling coin in England, and the question 
	>.. what a medieval shilling weighed ...
is meaningless.

The mention of gold coins is a separate (complex) issue.  In 14th
century Italy gold coins were often a status symbol for their
state of issue, and (if I remember correctly) the maintenance of
a bimetallic currency caused major economic problems as the relative
values of gold and silver fluctuated.

I apologise for the lack of attribution for all claims made in this
post; I'll attempt to look this stuff up again so I can give sources.

Of course, this has little to do with the original question which
started this thread, which had to do with the dimensions of Frankish
coins used for a recipe.  If the poster who started this thread will
give the date of the recipe (and by implication the date of the coins
used to measure), and the dimensions desired (weight? diameter?),
I'll attempt to look it up in my coin books, or consult with someone
with a better library.  The date is important--coin sizes varied
throughout the middle ages.  If my memory doesn't fail me, there
were little squat sceatta and larger thin sceatta at the same time
in Northumbria (Hossein?).
	Dafydd ap Gwystl			David Kuijt
	Barony of Storvik			kuijt at umiacs.umd.edu
	Kingdom of Atlantia			(MD,DC,VA,NC,SC)

From: Tim at f4229.n124.z1.fidonet.org (Tim)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: A New Society...
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 1994 20:54:01

 DZ> Are dollars really not period?  I know that the Germans were making
 DZ> thallers in the 16th century, and I think the English called them
 DZ> dollars almost from the start.

 The name come from the silver mine of Joachimsthal in Bohemia, which (if
 memory servies) was opened in 1520 or thereabouts; the coins from that
 mine were called "Joachimsthalers" or "thalers" for short; the English got
 it through the Dutch form "daler". ("Dollar" is also British slang for
 what used to be called the 'crown', of five shillings value). "Dollar" was
 sufficiently well known in late period for it to be used used by
 Shakespeare in *MacBeth*, Act I, scene ii, line 63.

 * Origin: Herald's Point * Steppes/Ansteorra * 214-699-0057 (1:124/4229)

From: cav at bnr.ca (Rick Cavasin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA A.S. 100
Date: 25 Aug 1994 20:03:24 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

re: SCA Currency

It has been tried, at least on a small scale.  I was at Medieval week in
Visby two summers ago, and at the SCA camp a tavern was set up,
where you exchanged Swedish currency for Nordmarks, and then
purchased beer with the Nordmarks.  The coins appeared to have
been minted by period means, and came in several denominations.
A nice touch (although I didn't think so at the time) was that
the various denominations did not appear to be evenly divisible, 
although that may have been my failure to understand the explanation.
Apparently, the whole currency
was based on the price of silver ie. the worth of the small silver
coin was equivalent to the worth of the silver it contained.

A similar experiment was tried here
in Ealdormere.  A gentle who shall remain anonymous
(since I'm not sure this was all legal)
set themselves up as the banker, and minted silver
coins which were sold for something like $5 each, with the stipulation
that they could be exchanged back for Canadian currency at any time.
The idea was that since they were guaranteed by the banker, people could
use them to exchange for goods and services between themselves.
I'm not sure what ever happened with it, but I don't think it caught on.

I don't think the government would take too kindly to this sort of thing
on a large scale.  They generally don't like other people working their
side of the street.  Too bad.  It could be fun.  Trouble is, most people
would want there to be a central bank where the 'real' money is stored,
where they know they can get their 'real' money back if they need it.
So who gets to hold the purse strings?

Cheers, Balderik

From: direwolf25 at aol.com (Sean mac Aodha ui Conghailie)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA A.S. 100
Date: 26 Aug 1994 15:52:39 GMT
Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, Berkeley CA

(Rick Cavasin) wrote:

> re: SCA Currency
> 
> It has been tried, at least on a small scale.  I was at Medieval week in
> Visby two summers ago, and at the SCA camp a tavern was set up,
> where you exchanged Swedish currency for Nordmarks, and then
> purchased beer with the Nordmarks.  The coins appeared to have
> been minted by period means, and came in several denominations.
> A nice touch (although I didn't think so at the time) was that
> the various denominations did not appear to be evenly divisible, 
> although that may have been my failure to understand the explanation.
> Apparently, the whole currency
> was based on the price of silver ie. the worth of the small silver
> coin was equivalent to the worth of the silver it contained.
> 
> A similar experiment was tried here
> in Ealdormere.  A gentle who shall remain anonymous
> (since I'm not sure this was all legal)
> set themselves up as the banker, and minted silver
> coins which were sold for something like $5 each, with the stipulation
> that they could be exchanged back for Canadian currency at any time.
> The idea was that since they were guaranteed by the banker, people could
> use them to exchange for goods and services between themselves.
> I'm not sure what ever happened with it, but I don't think it caught on.
> 
> I don't think the government would take too kindly to this sort of thing
> on a large scale.  They generally don't like other people working their
> side of the street.  Too bad.  It could be fun.  Trouble is, most people
> would want there to be a central bank where the 'real' money is stored,
> where they know they can get their 'real' money back if they need it.
> So who gets to hold the purse strings?
> 
> Cheers, Balderik

I know that the head of the Coiners' Guild in An Tir is doing this.  (Or,
at least, he was at the Ducal War two weeks ago)  He's minting silver
coins, selling them for $4 and redeeming them for the merchants.  No fee,
just 'cause he wants to get SCA coinage in circulation.  My knight is going
to be talking to the West Kingdom Coiners' Guild about something similar.

-Sean mac Aodha ui Conghailie

From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Date: 26 Aug 1994 18:53:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

Metal was hammered into sheets, cut into disks and then formed into coins
by being squished between two dies for about a 1000 years (500 to 1500).

Before then folk used roman coins. For a limited period roman coins were
melted down, debased and cast into replicas.

In the closing years of what we call period, the Germans developed Taschenwerk
which were rolling mills that imprinted the coin designs on a strip of metal
which was then cut into individual coins.

I think that the romans used cast coin blanks but I am not certain of that.

The chinese have a long tradition of cast bronze coin.

In late period the screw press was developed which allowed larger coins to
be minted. Prior to that the groat was the largest coin that could be struck.
A groat is roughly quarter sized and thinner than a nickel (apologies to
folk outside north america). A hammer strike can only move a limited amount
of metal. The screw press could be built to generate far more pressure
and thus permitted larger coins and deeper impressions in the dies. This
also lead to thicker coins, milling and edge inscriptions.

	Fiacha Moneyer (AnTir Moneyers Guild)
	AnTir

	haslock at zso.dec.com

From: Alberic6 <alberic6 at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Date: Sat, 27 Aug 94 00:25:23 -0500

Greetings all;
In reply to someone who asked about coin minting, some of the litterature
(oops...gotta love delphi's editor...)
I've read is of the opinion that many midieval coin blanks were *poured*.
I know this sounds odd, but let me see if I can reconstruct the argument from
memory.  (I'm moving *again!* next week.  Books=boxes)
Many midieval coins have a distinctive rounded rim, much like what you would
get by taking a clay marble and squishing it flat between two boards.
Fine, that is abviously an artifact of the minting process, right?
Wrong.  The dies were never centered that exactly, and besides, they would have
left distinctive tool marks on the edges of the blanks.  Tool marks which
aren't there.  The person I was reading, (an article from the BM if memory
serves.) was of the opinion that the only way to generate this odd edge
profile was to take a ladle of molten metal and pour out coin blanks
individually onto a cold iron sheet, thus giving a series of "cookies",
that, oddly enough really *did* look like midieval coin blanks.
he reported that in physical trials of this theory he could achieve, with
practice, a fairly consistant weight per blank.
Sometime when I settle down, I'll see if I can't find the xeroxes of that
article.
 
regards-->
Alberic, who's beginning to feel a little like the Flying Dutchman...
 
(for those who favour the cutting theory on coin production...
jeweler's saws aren't period, and shears really don't work that well
on things like that; leaving chisels...)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nostrand at bayes.math.yorku.ca (Barbara Nostrand)
Subject: Re: Minting coins
Organization: York University
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 02:37:47 GMT

Noble Cousins!

In AS XII or thereabouts, the East Kingdom had Silver Tygers floating around.
The things were the proverbial medieval silver penny.  A bit underweight, but
if they weighed a bit more I think that they would be very acceptable dollar
coins and not novelties.  Basically, to be successful the things should have
at least $0.85 worth of sterling in them.  I think that the whole idea has
a lot of merit.  Currently, Drachenwald routinely uses site money to obviate
currency conversion problems at merchant tables.

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Totally Ignorant

From: WISH at uriacc.uri.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Stamping Dies
Date: 1 Sep 1994 10:19:45 -0400

I not only found, but remembered to post this!

  CUSTOM DIE CUTTING
  Lady Ragnhild Attlidottir, Monier
  mka: Claire Rutiser
  1952 Highland Drive
  State College, PA 16803

Peter G. Rose, University of Rhode Island  | Azelin, of Wishford Hall
PO Box 3072, Kingston RI 02881   USA       | Trollhaven, Bridge, EK
(401) 792-2301                             | WISH at URIACC.URI.EDU

From: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard)
Date: 31 Aug 94 18:59:14 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Organization: Fidonet: In the distance...Vanishing Point 

re: coin dies

Okay, how technical do you want it?  Today, the coin die is a three piece
that uses a pre-sized sheet blank and is struck hydraulicly in a press. The
Romans probably poured their blanks and hardy struck them warm to get a deep
impression, which would also explain the cast look of the edge.  To hand
strike, you'll need a pair of dies and some mechanism to hold them in
alignment during the impact, and the biggest sledge you can comfortably
wield.  ONE stroke, both faces, cut off excess to size, "token".   Repeat
thousands of times.

to make dies yourself..,.  start with a high carbon tooling steel like O1 or
52100 bearing or 6160 axleshaft (there it is, already round for medium sized
coins).  Fire up the forge and heat this  to a bright orange and allow to
cool slowly (more than five minutes) to anneal (soften) for engraving.  
slice square and polish to a high mirror (this is the master, EVERY flaw will
be faithfully repeated in the finished work, take the time here) then lay out
and carve the desired image IN REVERSE on the polished surface.  When you're
satisfied that it's perfekt, fire up the forge again and gently heat the die
to a salmon pink and quench in mineral oil (veterinary supply).  After it
cools to room temp, bake in the oven at 400 degrees for at least an hour and
allow to cool in still air.  for 6160, this leaves the part at a Rockwell 58
to 60 and should give at least 2000 good impressions in copper based alloys.

Have fun... let me know how it turns out.  If I were doing it, i'd get out
the dremel and the diamond dentist burrs and the big magnifying glass for the
engraving.
---------
Fidonet:  Charly The Bastard 1:147/1077
Internet: Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Date: 2 Sep 1994 18:42:06 GMT
Organization: AI in Chem Lab

Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote:
> re: coin dies
> 
> Okay, how technical do you want it?  Today, the coin die is a three piece
> that uses a pre-sized sheet blank and is struck hydraulicly in a press. The
> Romans probably poured their blanks and hardy struck them warm to get a deep
> impression, which would also explain the cast look of the edge.

Errr, if I may be so bold...

The term "the Romans" as used in coinage covers several different times and
locations; the Greek colony of Rome, the republic, the empire, the eastern
colonies, the western colonies, and Egypt.  Minting practices were
differnet in all of these times and places.

The earliest Roman coinage was the Uncia and Libra, which were huge coins
cast in Bronze and Silver. They were not struck at all.  These cumbersome
denominations quickly changed to the silver Denarius, which was nearly
equal in weight to the Attic Drachm.   Very early republican Denarii may
come from cast flans,  but mid to late Denarii were cut from sheet.  This
is especially true of the serrati, which had deeply (1 - 2 mm) cut serrated
edges to show that the core of the coin was not copper with a silver foil
wrap (a so-called Foirre).

There is strong evidence that the planchets for Eastern bronze and brass
Roman Empirial coinages (Sesterius, Dupondius, and Quadrans) and some of
the approved localized currency (Ephesian Cistophorii, Macedonian
tetradrachms, etc..) were all cast.  However, from 200 CD onwards Sestertii
often show square sides with just a hint of rounding.  During the reign of
Philip I the coinage became so square that people started derisevly calling
them "quadrans" (the term used to refer to the 1/4 dupondius coin, and so
calling a sestertius a quadrans was a symbol of the peoples disgust at
inflation...  sort of like calling a dollar a "quarter").  In the 4'th C
the new Antonininii were probably cut.

Roman Egypt was always a special case...   being an Emperial colony, the
property of the Emporer himself, the coinage was not allowed to circulate
freely in or out of Egypt.   All traders had to exchange the money at the
harbor/border at the government rates.  The Ptolemaic coinage was continued
in that the Romans utilized Emperial tetradrachms as the primary coinage. 
These were made of Billon (a silver/copper alloy), which went from more
than 25% during the reign of Augustus to 2% or less during the time of
Probus.   It seems that the early planchets were cast or poured onto a cold
plate, but the structure of the edges of the later billon coinage seems to
indicate that the panchets may have been made by sintering small globules
of metal.

The question of hot or cold striking is still open to debate.

This is all from memeory.  If anybody is really interested in more details
I can dig out my notes from the Symposium in Honor of Metcalf which focused
on Minting Techniques and Metalurgical Analysis, and dig through my
library.

Tom Perigrinus 
(who in mundane life is FRNS, Fellow of the Royal Society of Numismatics,
and has a readers ticket at the Ashmolean Coin Department)

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Date: 2 Sep 1994 19:16:04 GMT
Organization: AI in Chem Lab

Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote:
> to make dies yourself..,.  

Let me make a request and also give some information to all of you who are
planning to make dies and strike your own coins...

The coins you make have the potential to last for hundreds or THOUSANDS of
years.

If you try to make exact reproductions of authentic coins, you will be
doing a strong disservice to numismatists and collectors.   YOU might know
it is modern, the person you give/sell it to might know that,  but it is
very possible that 10 years or more from now the coin might be accidentally
or purposefully passed off as being "genuine".   

Let us think about that... first of all, let us say the coin is a good
imitation, but wouldn't fool an expert.  Let us say you made a copy of a
penny of Aethelred II.   Currently a type IIa Aethelred, in EF-, sells for
about 400 pounds.  Let us say the unscrupulous or unwitting person sells it
to an enthusiast for half that price, $350 (roughly).   When that person
tries to sell it to an expert, or has it appraised, they are going to be
vastly disappointed to find their coin was made decade or so ago rather
than a millenium ago, and is "worth" the weight of silver or a little
more...   It would be improper for them to sell it for $350, wouldn't it?

Perhaps worse is if the coin is so good that it can pass examination by an
expert.  This isn't easy, but even the BM has been fooled.  For example,
the Hazelmere hoard of Celtic Staters passed through the hands of major
museums for years before a painstaking microscopic and metalurical analysis
by Frank van Arsdell showed that the coins were modern.   In that case you
are muddying the very historical record we are all so interested in.   If
the coin is accidentally included in a museum collection, and the coin is
used to estimate die linkages and currency output of a mint, then the
estimate of economic indicators based on those estimations can be thrown
off by quite a lot.   This harms the ability of future numismatists and
monetary economists to perform historical research.

I actually have some pesonal experience with this...   about 15 years ago I
minted a set of coins to be "business cards" and "favored tokens" for a
professional numismatist.  They were loosely based on Greek designs, and
had a "Greek-ized" version of his name on the reverse.   UNFORTUNATELY, I
didn't realize that the version of his name I used could be mistaken for
another Greek word (I'm sorry, I forget which).   Imagine my amazment,
distress, and amusment when I saw a report in Pacific Classical Numismatic
Society Journal, number 4, p 25, 1991 with a photograph of one of these
coins and an interpretation of the coin as being "emergency coinage" of a
perviously unrecorded city...   somehow the author even determined that the
coin was minted in year 13 of an unrecorded ruler (Greek coins are
generally dated by letters giving the regnal year).  Fortunately, the
report was not taken seriously.

Finally, everyone should know that the federal Numismatic Protection act of
1970 states that any object that resembles any antique or historical coin,
token, or monetary implement of the past, must bear the words "COPY" or
"REPRO" on once face in letters of such size as to be easily and quickly
visable to the naked eye.   And before anyone bothers to try to turn me in
because of the previous paragraph, let me state that I have already been in
contact with the US Secret Service, who is charged with enforcement of this
act.   Fortunately (I didn't know of the act at the time I did my work) I
didn't COPY any coin. Since I made the coins in the style of, but not as a
copy of, Greek coins, I didn't fall afoul of the act.   If anyone desires
to make their own "mediaeval coinage", let me urge them to make them in the
style of existing coins, but not as direct copies.

Tom Perigrin

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Minting Coins
Date: 8 Sep 1994 19:29:54 GMT
Organization: AI in Chem Lab

Charly.The.Bastard at f1077.n147.z1.fidonet.org (Charly The Bastard) wrote:
> Jeez Tom, give us a break!  I just told 'em how to make a die set, not how to
> overthrow the government through counterfeiting!  any competent machine shop
> can make dies, and I doubt that degrading the historical value of existing
> artifacts was in their minds when they asked for directions.  In my twenty
> odd years, I've managed to collect a sizeable little pile of SCA-struck
> "Tokens" from various kings and kingdoms, and they don't bear ANY resemblence
> to ancient artifact or modern currency.  I see these tokens as valuable bits
> of our history, not the world's.

Well, perhaps I wasn't clear enough... I wasn't saying that _YOU_ had done
anything wrong, or that anyone else was doing anything wrong (although it
IS being done, see below).   I was trying to provide "pre-emptive"
information.    We have some pretty talented and clever people in the
SCA...  although their fist attempts might not look authentic, I wouldn't
be surprised if their 20'th or 30'th attempts start to look pretty darned
good.   I just wanted them to think about these things BEFORE they got that
good.

I doubt many of us would question the wisdom of refraining from re-enacting
period battles on original archeological sites, especially if we intended
to leave good period reporductions at the site...   But this is what we are
accidentally doing with coinage...  By the very nature of coinage and it's
value, a lot of study material shows up with poor or non-existing
provenance.   A farmer digs up a pot of Celtic coinage... is he going to
turn it over to the BM and get a note of thanks, or is he going to quietly
sell it on the market for a few years wages?   Thus numismatists often have
to work with material that has no excavation notes... One cannot always
tell the authenticity of a coin by the layer in which it is found.   Let's
not make the serious scholar's job worse by accidentally seeding their
"battle fields" wth spurious material that is hard to distinguish.

Now, above I mentioned that exact copies are already being made...

I was dismayed when I visited the visitors center at Jorvik (viking time
York), and saw that they had sunk an EXACT duplicate of viking age coinage.
  These dies were cut while examining original coins, and the die sinkers
purpose was to make EXACT duplicates.   They were striking pewter coins, so
the chance of confusing one of these coins with a period silver coin was
minimal.   But minimal also describes their security on the dies...   They
had a person striking the coins sitting 10' from the door.   Often he would
turn away to look at something else, or even go to the bathroom, leaving
the dies accesable to ne'er-do-wells.   If a malefactor absconded with the
dies, we would soon have excellent copies floating around with no
distinquishing marks.  When I communicated my worries to them via letter,
the die sinker commented that his intention was to make exact duplicates,
and he refused to even consider adding a symbol that never appeared on the
original coinage (like a small anchor, fish, monogram, etc...)

This fear was exacerbated by a report at the 10'th international numismatic
confernce in London.   A group from Paris reported that they had been
experimenting with the question of hot versus cold striking in Aegian
coinage by making exact duplicates and striking the coins at various temps.
 The bad thing is that the dies have been stolen!   So although the museum
staff didn't have bad intentions, we can only wonder at the intentions of a
person who has already broken the law once to steal the dies...

From: CAR at ECL.PSU.EDU (Claire A Rutiser)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: coin minting and counterfeiting
Date: 9 Sep 1994 16:29:20 GMT
Organization: Penn State Engineering Computer Lab

There has been some debate recently (see articles by Tom Peregrin and
Charly the Bastard) on coin minting in the SCA, coin reproducing, and
the legallity/ethics of the both.  I believe there are 2 separate  issues 
here, but since I engage in both making custom coin die cutting for SCA groups
and making reproduction medieval coins, I will discuss/defend both.

1) Minting of SCA coinage
Many groups in the SCA have dies with the group name, device, and possible
the portrait of a king or queen on it.  As an example, I cut dies for the
Barony of Ponte Alto (Atlantia) at Pennsic.  One side says "Ponte Alto"
with a year, around a bridge.  The reverse has the words "splendissime"
around a cross design borrowed from an English coin.  Several thousand of these
are being minted in pewter or nickel silver for the Tournament of the Roses,
September 24th. 
	When I cut coin dies for SCA groups, they are, in general, in the style
of medieval coins, but not close to any exact medieval coin.  I would be very
surprised if a coin struck from an SCA die that I had cut was mistaken for a
real medieval coin.

2) Reproduction of Medieval coins
The other thing I do with my die cutting hobby is to make reproductions
of medieval and early Celtic coins.  When I strike in silver, I stamp the 
word "COPY" into every coin, even the ones I keep for myself. The other SCA
moniers I work with also do the same, every time.  
	I got into this hobby because it allows me to have (and wear) 
examples of coins I may never be able to afford.  Viking coins, especially,
are very hard to find, though this is a popular persona in the SCA.
	I share some of Tom Peregrin's concern's, though, about reproducing
coins.  Becker, a famous 19th century european forger, cut hundreds of
dies to Greek and Roman gold coins, and minted tens of thousands of these,
which he sold.  Most are still in circulation today, being sold as real
coins.  In some cases, he re-struck cheap old coins into more valuable coins.
  Clearly, coin collectors already have a lot to watch out for, and they don't
 want to buy a $1000 Greek gold coin only to find out years later that it is a
 recent copy worth only its precious metal content. 
	 When I strike coins in silver, I use modern sterling silver, which 
has a higher silver content than most medieval coins.  X-ray fluorescence
(XRF) a non-destructive method for determining metal composition (including
trace elements) is frequently used to check rare coins (this is my
 understanding).  Any coin struck from modern metal would stick out like
a sore thumb with this test.  The other test a repro. coin must pass to be sold
as real is visual examination.  The patina, the size and weight, and the die
cutting have to _look_ real.  I have lots of practice, but when I compare
my cutting to a photo of a real coin, I can always see room for improvement.
	I have seen someone's repro viking coin made in Jorvik (Viking York)
fairly recently.  I believe that it was 50% larger than a real coin would be.
	As an aside, I think that lost wax or investment casting would be a 
much better technique for forging coins (to sell illegally) than striking
them.  

	If anyone has any questions or concerns about this, send me E-mail. 

		- Ragnhild the Monier
	          Claire Rutiser, CAR at ecl.psu.edu

From: nusbache at rmc.ca (2LT Aryeh JS Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA coinage idea
Date: 9 Sep 1994 17:27:15 GMT
Organization: Royal Military College of Canada

A few years back, I and a buddy turned our heads to developing a legal way to have coins with real intrinsic value that could circulate freely, but would not violate the Crown monopoly on minting legal tender coin.  This was our solution:

Mint coins.
Run them through a numbering machine to stamp a serial number on each coin.
Issue the coins _as bearer bonds_ with a face value of C$1 each.  On being issued, each numbered bond would have to be registered to the purchaser, but they would not need to be tracked after that.
The issuing firm (a corporation formed explicitly for the purpose of making the coins) would guarantee to buy the coins back at face value.

Presto -- coins which can legally circulate with real value.

Run it past a lawyer before trying it, though -- especially if you live in a country with tough securities laws.

Aryk Nusbacher

From: MPPHY at uriacc.uri.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: source for coin dies
Date: 9 Sep 1994 10:42:45 -0400

    The thread on minting coins finally gave me enough incentive to look throug
h all of my Pennsic stuff for the business card of that stall on Bow Street tha
t took orders for them....
            Custom Die Cutting
            Lady Ragnhild Attlidottir, Monier
            mka:  Claire Rutiser
            1952 Highland Drive
            State College, PA 16803
     The above is exactly what is on the business card I picked up.  Sorry if i
t's already been posted.

Michael Perry        |  Kenric of Northampton, ===> actually spelled Chenric 8)
(PPHY at uriacc.uri.edu |   aka Mikhail Vyechoslavovich Godunov
Physics Dept.        |  Trollhaven, Barony of the Bridge
URI                  |  East Kingdom

From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (no)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coin blanks
Date: Sat, 08 Oct 94 08:05:57 EDT
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

rmccown at world.std.com (Bob McCown) writes:
> I'm attempting to make coins for an upcoming event, and need to find 
> aluminim, or other sfot metal, blanks for coins...anyone out there have
> a supplier for these?  Thanks in advance!
> 
> Robur of Roestoc
> rmccown at world.std.com
> Armadillo (v.): To provide weapons to a Spanish pickle.

Try Rio Grande Company, Albuquerque, NM. They are a national source for 
silver, nickel silver, gold, and other metals, and they have blank disks 
of many gauges and sizes. You might also buy a sheet and have a local die 
stamping company cut your blanks with their own circle dies.
Megan

== 
In 1994: Linda Anfuso       non moritur cujus fama vivat
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

                                YYY     YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |
                                |____n____| 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Coin blanks
From: david.razler at compudata.com (David Razler)
Date: Wed,  5 Oct 94 00:27:00 -0500
Organization: -=-  Compu-Data * Turnersville, NJ  -=-

BM>I'm attempting to make coins for an upcoming event, and need to find 
BM>aluminim, or other sfot metal, blanks for coins...anyone out there have
BM>a supplier for these?  Thanks in advance!

Go to Boston's jewelery supply district and buy blanks of Britania metal 
("pewter" without lead) It's cheap, generally available from stores that 
supply jewelers with findings etc. for the cost of the metal alone (trivial) 
precut into whatever size disks you need. If they don't have it there, reply 
and I'll call you with a list of folks in Philladelphia who have what you 
seak. (aluminum is harder to stamp, and especially make look like silver, 
which is currently cheap enough that you might even want to make GENUINE 
silver coins!)
                                        Aleksandr the Traveller
                                     [david.razler at compudata.com]

From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: pound of gold, pound of feathers
Date: 17 Oct 1994 14:10:00 -0400
Organization: the internet

>Worth remembering next time someone asks which weighs more -- a pound
>of gold or a pound of feathers...

Actually, a pound is a pound is a pound.

However...one pound of non-precious metal goods is 16 avoirdupois
ounces (French for "goods of weight").  One pound of gold is divided
into 12 troy (from Troyes) ounces, so the individual ounces weigh
more.  Thus, 1 ounce of gold is heavier than 1 ounce of feathers.
Each ounce was subdivided into 20 smaller weights, whose names I will
withhold pending a surprise.

Notice the ratio: 1:12:20.  The pre-decimal British currency was so
divided: 1 pound = 12 shillings, and 1 shilling = 20 pence.  Thus it
should be no surprise that the smallest weight is a "pennyweight".
Originally a pound of _silver_ (equal in value to an ounce of gold)
was divided into 12 ounces (from the Latin _uncia_), and each ounce
could be minted into 20 silver pennies.  Depending on the time in
England, pay on the order of shillings per year put you in the middle
class.

(An ounce of silver has a volume of about 2.5 cubic centimeters, or
a coin about the size and thickness of a quarter, if you're wondering
how big the coins were)

William the Alchymist

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: pound of gold, pound of feathers
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 02:47:02 GMT

"Despite the logic of 20 pennyweights to an ounce and 12 ounces to a
pound, there were 12 pennies to a shilling and 20 shillings to a
pound.

The point forgotten here is that the English shilling is a late or
post period coin. The number of pennyweights to a pound, on the other
hand, has been stable for 800 years or more."

(Fiacha)

The following is from memory; the source is a chapter of Carlo
Cippola's excellent book _Money, Prices, and Civilization in the
Mediterranean World_; I think the title was "Ghost Monies of the
Middle Ages," or something similar.

The Carolingian monetary reform, c. 800, set up a system based on the
pound of silver, from which 240 pennies were minted. In order to fit
the new system into the old system of Roman currency, in terms of
which various existing contracts, rents, etc. were defined, 12
pennies were made equivalent to a Roman coin, (possibly the
sestercius or the solidus?). At that point neither the shilling (12
pence) nor the pound existed (except as a unit of weight)--just the
penny. The other two were units of account but not coins. A modern
equivalent would be the tenth of a cent that we see in gasoline
prices, but do not have a coin for.

As the coinage got debased, it was easier to keep the definition of a
pound as 240 pennies than to keep the definition of a pound as a
pound of silver, since the latter would have meant a continually
changing ratio of pound to penny. Similarly, the shilling continued
to be defined as 12 pennies. Eventually shilling coins came to be
minted in various countries (long before the end of our period, as I
remember). 

Incidentally, the Italian lira is (etymologically) a pound. The
French franc is (I think) a renamed livre tournois--also
etymologically a pound.

David/(Cariadoc)

From: IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: HISTORY: Coinage
Date: 21 Oct 1994 10:42:15 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway

<mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)>
>Thanks to Diamuit ui Dhuinn for his article on coinage.  It was quite
>informative.  If you do plan to publish it, you might want to add
>references to support your valuations.

It was my original intent merely to supply a "rough relationship" chart,
but it's a fair point to ask for references... :)

Among the many references I used for this thing were:

Casey, P. J.  Understanding ancient coins, an introduction for archaeologists 
	and historians. Norman, OK, University of Oklahoma Press, 1986.
Cribb, Joe, Barrie Cook, Ian Carradice, John Flower.  The coin atlas, the 
	world of coinage from its origins to the present day. New York :
	Facts on File, c1990.
Heckel, Waldemar and Sullivan, Richard.  Ancient coins of the Graeco-Roman 
	world, the Nickle numismatic papers.  Waterloo, Ont., Canada : 
	Published by Wilfrid Laurier University Press for the Calgary 
	Institute for the Humanities, c1984.
Hobson, Burton and Obojski, Robert.  Illustrated encyclopedia of world coins.
	Garden City, N.Y. : Doubleday, [1970].
Junge, Ewald. World coin encyclopedia.  New York : William Morrow and Company,
	1984.
Mattingly, Harold.  Roman coins from the earliest times to the fall of the 
	Western Empire.  New York : Sanford J. Durst, Numismatic Publications,
	c1987.

> 20         Pound Sovereign (cg); "Broad"                   ($500)
>...

>I assume the "$500" is intended to give value relative to modern American
>currency?  Then this tells us that Shakespeare's audience would think of
>1000 ducats being equivalent to 1000 pounds of their money, which we can
>value around $500,000.  A pretty sum.

More or less.  This is based on the Rough estimates given in:

Singman, Jeoffry L.  The Elizabethan Handbook: A manual for living history,
	c.1588-1603.  Ann Arbor? : n.p., 1993.

>Hey, I was only off by a factor of 4!  That's not too bad.

If you start examining some of the prices for things at the time, you wind up
with some very interesting estimates.  For example, the value for a "Sword"
(whether new or used) seems to be about 3-5 shillings which is something like
$75-$150.  Not bad.  However, a price I found for Tobacco, in (as I recall)
the 1570s placed it at about the equivalent of $75 an ounce (or roughly
twenty times more than I pay currently). I'm not sure I love my pipe THAT
much.

NOTE that the "Valuations" ARE *rough* estimates over a period of time and
should not be blindly used to compare across the different the different eras
listed.  While they are IN THEORY comparable, I wouldn't bet my life on it.
Their primary purpose is to establish a relationship.

A simple scholar,

	Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
	Shire of Northkeep, Kingdom of Ansteorra
	(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: COINS
Date: 15 May 1995 16:47:01 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley
Keywords: coins

[Hal posting from Dorothy's account....]
In article <3p6pee$nfe at candelo.dpie.gov.au>,
Ruth <rlovisol at candelo.dpie.gov.au> wrote:
>I am hoping to find someone who would correspond with me about coinmaking.
>
>I have heard rumour of a guild of coinmakers, but I dont mind who I talk to as long as they can help me figure out how to make some coins.
>
>Will engraving the tips of steel rods and then hardening the steel work?  If you
>could email me directly I would be grateful, as I don't get to read this group
>often.

While I will e-mail this data as well, I think that a public post
will serve a useful purpose....

For information on coin making in the Society, contact:

	Keith Woods
	P.O. Box 3813
	Chico, CA 95927
	(916) 342-7831

As Titus of Wormwood, he's head of the West Kingdom Moneyers
Guild.

There are ramifications to making coins that may not be apparent
on the surface.  The Monyers Guild has done the needed research
with the Treasury Dept.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)

From: tmcdanie at utic.unicomp.net (Timothy McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: MT: "Hammered and Milled Coins"
Date: 2 Jun 1995 01:11:09 -0500
Organization: UniComp Technologies International Corp. An Internet Service Provider, 214-663-3155 FAX 214-663-3170 info at unicomp.net

Forwarded with the kind permission of the American Numismatic
Association, with their copyright intact:

                                                      Transcript No. 692
                                                      May 30, 1995

                           HAMMERED AND MILLED COINS
                            by Scott T. Rottinghaus

              Coins have been around for thousands of years.  But until the
sixteenth century, there was no machinery at all for making coins.

              Coin collectors make a distinction between hammered and milled
coins. Milled coins are struck by machinery, like today's coins.

              But from the invention of coinage, about 27 hundred years ago,
until relatively recently, coins were generally struck by hand, using a
hammer.  The process was fairly simple. Blanks, or unstruck coins, could be
produced by pouring hot metal into molds, or they could simply be cut from
large sheets of metal. The coiner would then place the blank between two dies
and deliver a strong hammer blow to the top die, striking the coin.

              Hammered coins look different from the ones made today. They're
not perfectly round, they're often struck off-center, and the design is
commonly weak because of uneven or insufficient pressure during striking.

              Medieval hammered coins were very thin, and dishonest people
could easily file or cut precious metal off the edges. This process, known as
clipping, was a serious problem because it reduced the coin's value by
reducing the amount of silver or gold it contained.

              The invention of coin presses solved these problems. During the
seventeenth century, milled coins replaced hammered coins in most of Europe.
Milled coins are perfectly round and well-struck, and their edges are marked
to prevent clipping. Today's coin presses can produce hundreds of high-quality
and uniform coins every minute . . . quite an amazing advance over the former
method of striking each coin by hand.

     This has been "Money Talks."  Today's program was written by Scott
Rottinghaus and underwritten by COIN PRICES magazine, providing its readers
with the latest values on U.S. coins.  "Money Talks" is a copyrighted program
of the American Numismatic Association, 818 N. Cascade Ave., Colorado Springs,
CO 80903, (719)-632-2646, ana at csdco.com.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: hopkins at hopkins.rtp.dg.com (Edward Hopkins)
Subject: Re: ANA MT: "Clipping"
Date: Tue, 30 May 95 18:42:44 GMT
Organization: Data General Corporation. RTP, NC.

>With the kind permission of Mr. James Taylor, American Numismatic
>Association Director of Education, I am cross-posting this copyrighted
>article from rec.collecting.coins to rec.org.sca.  I'll try to bring
>the discussion over too.  -- Daniel de Lincoln
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>                                                      Transcript No. 688
>                                                      May 24, 1995
>                          CLIPPING (LONG CROSS PENNY)
>                              by Matthew Rockman
>
>              As long as governments have issued money--people have managed to
>counterfeit, steal or find some way to misuse it. Medieval England certainly
>wasn't immune to these problems, but the King of England found a rather clever
>way to discourage at least one type of fraud.

[some article-clipping here]

>              By the middle of the thirteenth century, the problem had reached
>epic proportions. Looking for a remedy, King Henry III ordered a change in the
>design of the coins. In 1247, new coins were issued showing a large cross with
>arms extending to the edge of the coin. With the new coins came a royal edict:
>if any part of the cross was absent from a coin, it would no longer be legal
>tender. The problem was solved, and a minor change in design put thousands of
>nefarious silver-savers out of business. Never again would clipping represent
>a major threat to the integrity of British coins.

If my memory serves me, there was an interesting side-effect to this edict:
In order to pay for having all those new coins minted, the King levied a tax
on windows, leading to a housing fad of bricked-up windows.
Or did that happen later, when milled edges were introduced?

-- Alfredo
hopkins at dg-rtp.dg.com

From: Dria Chamberlin <Talitha at vonkopke.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Money Dies
Date: 17 Jun 1995 00:53:39 +0100
Organization: Myorganisation

In article <3rs1ah$iov at news.iii.net>
           chris at ferguson.iii.net "Chris Lavallie" writes:

> I am trying to find those members of the moneymaking guild who make the
> dies for striking coins.  They were at Pennsic two years ago but aren't
> listed in the merchant section.  My shire would like to obtain dies for
> striking its own coins for events.  Any info that any of you could provide
> would be most appreciated.  Thank you.
> 
> Chris Lavallie

With the caveat that I am not certain this is what you are looking for, 
particularly as my understanding is that in the Moneyers Guild of the West, 
you must make your own dies, I can offer the following information:

Moneyer's Guild (West Kingdom)
Titus of Wormwood (Keith Woods)
PO Box 3813
Chico, CA  95927
(916) 342-7831

I do know that the coins they make are really impressive; several (obverse) dies
have been made to the specification of the Crown and Coronet; the reverse 
being the (mon?) of the specific moneyer.

Hope this helps.   
-- 
In Service to Courtesy, Honor and Chivalry,
Talitha von Kopke

From: saxon34 at aol.com (Saxon34)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Moneyers of the Knowne World Unite!
Date: 21 Jun 1996 19:43:41 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)

                 Thanks to my time at 3YC my contacts have grown.Still,we
are putting out the call for all Moneyers or would be Moneyers.Now is the
time to send me an address and number. Also we are looking for someone to
run our newsletter"The Pyx".
                  It is time to get this Inter-Kingdom Moneyers Guild off
and running smoothly.Anyone can make coins for both Populace and
Royals,very few tools and effort is needed,(warning blantant advertising
coming up),I have in hand a quick how to book that can get you up and
running in one weekend.If you want to pay off those viking raiders or hire
some tough fighters,do so with coins.For a copy of the "Moneyers
Handbook",send $7.00 plus $3.00 P&H for a total of ten bucks to:James
M.Coffman 2115A South Old Stage Rd.Mt.Shasta,CA.96067.
                 If you know of other Moneyers in action tell them about
us and we hope they will stay in touch.If you don't need a handbook but
have been doing coining for a long time get in touch as well,we are
building a large Guild Museum for the varied coins of the Known World so
we need info and copies.The above handbook is 41 pages of simple how to
stuff and is a modest effort.Still if you gotta start somewhere or are
looking for something to do in the SCA it is here for
you.(Booga,Booga/Moneyers talk for break a leg).

Good Luck.
     Master Emmerich of Vakkerfjell,OL

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: cheval at netcom.com (jay hoffman)
Subject: Re: Old fashioned coins
Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 22:09:12 GMT

Derek McKay (dmckay at leon.atnf.CSIRO.AU) wrote:

:   I am after some fake old fashioned gold coins for a display. I've heard there
: are some places about that make replicas of old coins, does anyone know of any
: such companies? Any URL's/addresses/etc, would be greatly appreciated. Please
: e-mail me at dmckay at atnf.csiro.au . Thanks!

I must beg your indulgence, but I chose to follow up on the Rialto since I
felt this information could be of use the the readership at large. 

While charging about the English countryside last February, I discovered a
series of reproduction coins for sale at many of the National Trust sites
we visited.  The coins are conveniently packaged in sets of two from many
periods throughout British history (Richard I & III, Saxon, Medieval, and
Civil War), with a short history of each coin printed on the overleaf.. 
The reproductions seem to be cast, rather than stamped, and they sold for
around 1 pound per set. Specific to your request, the only 'gold' colored 
coin I have is in the 'Richard' set, described as a 'Gold Angel of 
Richard III - one-third of one pound'.

The address on the back of the package is:

Westair Reproductions Ltd.
1298 Warwick Road
Acocks Green
Birmingham, B27 6PZ
Phone:  021-603-3030

I hope you find this information useful.

Best regards,
Alfred of Carlyle, West Kingdom

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:53:50 -0500
From: Tim Weitzel <wcrobert at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu

Ok, sorry this is very late, and is in response to a post made way back by
Alban, but here is a very short list of mail-order jewlery suppliers for
soft metal in sheets and casting grain, equipment and tools, glass and
stones, etc.:

Bartlett & Company Incorporated Jwlrs Tools 
67 E Madison St, Chicago, IL 60603-3014
312-782-7224

TSI, inc.
101 Nickerson St.
P.O. Box 9266
Seatle, WA 98109
800-426-9984

Rio Grande
7500 Bluewater NW
Albuquerque, NM 87121-1962
505-839-3000
For information or to place an order call:
800-545-6566 from the USA
800-253-9738 from Canada, Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico
95-800-253-9738 from Mexico
800-645-4859 - 24 hour FAX
E-mail us at: Bluegem at RioGrande.com
http://www.riogrande.com/

Ulrich Haugenaer and Nazar Druzhinin, and Myself have all used TSI.  Most
of the first Calontir coins were made from materials at Barlett & Co. or
American Metal Craft.  Gillian de Ravalry (sp?) and Nazar Druzhinin have
ordered from Rio Grand with good results.

Hope this is useful.

Tryffin ap Myrddin
Shadowdale, Calontir

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:55:47 -0700
From: Ted Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage

At 10:29 AM 8/26/98 -0500, THL Constanza C.X. de Valencia wrote:
>Regarding Kingdom Coinage...  (much snipped)
>The whole idea of producing coinage for exchange should not be
>considered AT ALL!! (sorry...didn't mean to shout)

I understand what you are saying.  There are laws on the books limiting
who can produce legal tender in the US.  However, I don't think anyone in
the SCA is trying to compete with the Denver mint.  In fact, SCA coins
are more like barter - since they are artwork rather than "money."  As for
having a formal exchange rate, I agree that this is neither desireable nor
necessary.  Right now we trade coins and tokens in this area in the same
way one might trade baseball cards.  Some coins are "worth more" than
others - but it's informal.  Like any other artwork or commodity, it's what
the market will bear.

>Not to mention that merchants want cold, hard cash. Let's
>face it, they do not want to have to accept play money and then
>"exchange" it for the real thing.

I agree that they should not be "forced" to accept anything.  Even
so, many merchants are quite happy to accept SCA period coins
at a given value - they like the medieval flavor it gives the exchange.
They decide what they will exchange for the coins - in effect bartering
for the coins rather than using them as currency.  Other merchants
will except a coin and give a 10% discount off selected merchandise.
The merchants are well aware of the limited run of our coins.  Indeed,
some merchants are quite reluctant to sell back the coins because
their value goes up as trading items after the event.

The Caidan Vth Brigade pays its soldiers with period coins at using
a period pay schedual (I'm a grunt, so I only make tuppence for a war.
Knights make somewhere around a shilling, if I recall correctly).
There is a "War Chest" with items donated by members of the Brigade.
We use our "pay" to buy items out of the chest.  Some of us gamble
or buy drink with our pay.  Others go to the merchants.  Others, well....
let's just say the coins spend well.

>It could get very ugly...

It can also be a lot of fun and add another level of period flavor to our
events.  I'm all for that.

Edwin

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:26:19 -0700
From: Ted Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage

At 08:50 PM 8/27/98 -0500, THL Constanza C.X. de Valencia wrote:  (snipped)
>My other concern is this: ...What would
>prevent someone else from copying and making unauthorized coinage
>(counterfeiting) as well?  If the coinage is used as exchange for real
>goods-and merchants want to turn the "play" money into "mundane"
>currency- then it is very likely that counterfeiting of SCA "play" money
>will occur.  While most SCAdians are honest, chivalrous people, some are
>not.

Forgive me, but I find this comment funny.  I have made period-style, hand-
struck coins using hand-punched and hand-engraved dies.  It is just
simply not worth the time and trouble to counterfeit these coins - even if
it were possible to do so.  Duplicating a hand-struck coin without the
original dies is very nearly impossible.  I don't think I could perfectly
duplicate one of my own dies using the same tools and hand-made
punches using my own coin as an example.  But some people exceed
my skill.

Still, anyone with the craftsmanship to make a good copy has a skill
marketable enough that he or she wouldn't need to resort to counterfeiting.
I seriously don't think this is a problem.

Edwin

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:14:39 -0400
From: <akasha at gte.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage

Here in Trimaris several years ago, we had a coinage type system in use
at Kingdom fundraisers. Some were wooden coins actually printed up, some
were poker chips painted. Different values werre attached to the
different colors.  When you arrived at gate, you could purchase the coin
of the realm or use regular cash. At the end of the day, you cashed in
your remaining "coins" or keep your "coins" as a keepsake of the event.
Each event had something different printed on them so they were not
transferable to other events.

Lady Joanna

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:57:28 -0700
From: Artor Hodgson <artor at efn.org>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage

Y'know, in Antir at least, and I think the West too, there is a coin
maker & his apprentice who make it to an amazing number of large events-
mostly the ones with a lot of merchants. I believe these are the same
guys who minted the coin in honor of the late Prince Jafar. They have a
number of different coins minted for several kingdoms
        They SELL their coins for $1.00 apiece, and happily buy them back at
the end of the event. However, there are a number of coins that never
make it back to them, thus providing for their livelihood. Some of these
coins stay in gentle's pouches to help maintain that period feel, but
some stay in merchant's coffers, since they know they'll have to make
change at the next event.
        Their venture is an entirely personal one, to my knowledge, with no
sanction from the SCA, Inc. It is self-regulating and trouble free.
Since the coins themselves are sold as wares, and are bought back at a
fixed rate, not open to speculation or inflation, I don't think the IRS
or Treasury Dept. have any cause to be alarmed, asuming it ever comes to
their attention.

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:03:28 -0700
From: Artor Hodgson <artor at efn.org>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage [SCA]

Oh, yeah. The coins of which I speak come in denominations of $1 (a big
copper slug) $4 & $8, (thin sterling silver) $25 & $50 (tiny real gold
coins in a plastic envelope to keep from losing them). Any change
required is given in SCA or US coinage, and small change is all in US.
The coins are NOT "legal tender," since nobody is required to accept
them for payment.

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:20:30 -0700
From: Ted Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pennsic & Coinage

>Y'know, in Antir at least, and I think the West too, there is a coin
>maker & his apprentice who make it to an amazing number of large events-
>mostly the ones with a lot of merchants.

There is a "History of Minting in the SCA" Web page at:
http://www.windward.org/ush/cnulle.htm

Edwin

Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 22:59:28 -0700
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Hot-Striking coins [SCA]

BastetKat at aol.com wrote:
>   What you are describing is casting, and the method your friends are using
> will not be very successful. Hot-striking would be heating the metal up to an
> annealing temperature (see my letter on circlets), not melted, and then put it
> in the die. There is really no advantage to this over cold die casting (unless
> you are working with much harder metals than bronze)....  Judith

 Actually, and with all due respect, the romans did "hot strike" coins. This was
melted metal and the result gave a kind of "squished" look much like a wax
seal impression.  You are quite right that the medieval style was to cold strike
annealed metals in a process not completely dissimilar to techniques in use
today.

Edwin

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 23:25:58 -0400
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Button coins and  Minting

Cast coins were also known in Early Rome, India and Ptolemaic Egypt.
Cast blanks were done in molds like strings of beads, broken apart,
and struck between upper and lower dies. Check out a book called
the Coin Makers by Thomas W. Becker, Doubleday and Co, Inc., Garden
City, N.Y., 1969, Lib of Congress # 68-19915.  178 pages.

Magnus

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 11:12:25 -0700
From: domus at juno.com (Kenneth J Mayer)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: coin making

On Fri, 16 Oct 1998 14:50:41 <cmccraw at comp.uark.edu> writes:
>I have been thinking about making personal coins as a fun project, but 
>was wondering if this is a period practice. I have just started reading on
>the subject, but it seems that minting coins was limited to rulers (in the
>few sources I have read, at least).
>
>Did any other nobles mint their own coins in period? Or mint a personal
>token much like a coin? (In SCA practice I like the following use of coins:
>in Calontir the Ladies of the Rose have a "rose coin" to give out as a
>means to continue patronage of the arts and sciences.)

I cannot speak for period practice of nobles having their own coins
struck, but in the West Kingdom, anyone willing to pay the moneyers'
guild a fee (cost of materials, and such), can have coins made. I have
had coins made specifically for my acting troupe (The Golden Stag
Players) and pay the actors and others who work with us a coin for each
performance. It's a nice touch, and they appreciate it  ...

Hirsch
----------
Ken Mayer (Hirsch von Henford)
Carolyn J. Eaton (Aldith Angharad St. George)

Date: Sun, 18 Oct 1998 22:32:04 -0700
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Irish coins

Styrbjorn Ulfhamr skrawled:
> .....Second, do you have any sources of Irish coins (pre1000) that you
> could pass on?  I'm a Viking who frequents Dyflin (Dublin) and I would
> find a few Irish coins of use.  However I also would suggest that you use
> the methods of the Norsemen:  hack silver.  Just twist some silver into
> torcs, bracelets, rings and such and cut off pieces to pay other members.
>  This is what the Vikings did, and they certainly had an influence on
> later Ireland, but I would be curious if this was done in the 5th C.

This, at least, I know a little about.  My lady wife made me look up some
coins minted in Ireland about that time.  The coins I found were around
the 12th century (I'll have to look) and minted in areas of foreign control.
They look almost identical to the english coins of the same date, which
makes sense, considering....   The irish didn't seem to mint coins, but
they weren't adverse to using them.

Edwin

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 12:38:16 -0400
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Irish coins

Edwin Hewitt wrote:
> This, at least, I know a little about.  My lady wife made me look up some
> coins minted in Ireland about that time.  The coins I found were around
> the 12th century (I'll have to look) and minted in areas of foreign control.
> They look almost identical to the english coins of the same date, which
> makes sense, considering....   The irish didn't seem to mint coins, but
> they weren't adverse to using them.
>
> Edwin

Quoting Patrick F. Wallace in the chapter Dublin in the Viking Age in
_The Illustrated Archaeology of Ireland_, edited by Michael Ryan:
"The Vikings introduced our earliest coinage in 997 and popularized and
made available the use of silver in the tenth century."

In Medieval Anglo-Irish Coins by Michael Dolley, B.A.Seaby Ltd. London, 1972:

"Only in the seaport towns of Ostmen, former Viking centres of influence
such as Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, Cork, and Limerick Does there
appear ever to have been any sort of a monetary economy, and even here
what had been in essence an alien and not an Irish coinage had not begun
until the closing years of the tenth century. It had been struck at Dublin
and nowhere else and had withered away a whole generation before the
Anglo-Normans could establish themselves in Leinster. On 1 May 1169
the native Irish still constituted, of course, the overwhelming majority
of the population of the island, and it is a curious but undeniable fact
that they seem never to have felt the need for a coinage as that term is
usually understood today."

Magnus

Date: Sun, 01 Nov 1998 01:24:49 -0800
From: Edwin Hewitt <brogoose at pe.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Coins,Coins,Coins

I just found an interesting website which has a bearing on a recent past
discussion on Celtic Coins:

The Significance of Celtic Coinage
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~RDavies/arian/celtic.html

An excerpt:
> "Traditional historians have tended to overlook the role played by Celtic
> coinage in the early history of British money." There is a paucity of written
> evidence from the period before the Roman conquest but "hundreds of
> thousands of Celtic coins have been found, mostly on the Continent, where
> hordes of up to 40,000 coins have been discovered. In a number of
> instances we have learned of the existence of certain rulers only through
> their representation on coins (though some are spurious)."

Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:21:50 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Odd bits of metal / Pilgrims Tokens / Minting Books

Whilst groping about the web last nite I came on the following site.
You lot often gab about casting, or minting money, or even the history
of Gallic coinage, British Isles, European, or World.

Among other offerings are:
Coin Hoards, Volume I, Royal Numismatic Society, London £10.00
Coin Hoards, Volume 2, Royal Numismatic Society, London £10.00
Coin Hoards, Volume V, Royal Numismatic Society, London, 1979 £10.00
Coin Hoards, Volume VI, Royal Numismatic Society, London, 1981 £10.00
Coin Hoards, Volume VIII, Royal Numismatic Society, London, Greek
Hoards £40.00

Cooper, D.R., The Art and Craft of Coinmaking, A History of Minting
Technology, London, 1988, 264 pages, many illustrations, some in
colour £29.50

Dekesel, Christian E., A Bibliography of 16th Century Numismatic
Books, London 1997, 1104 pages analysing all known books of the
period, limited to 400 copies, casebound £200.00

Metallurgy in Numismatics. Volume 1. Metcalf, D. M. and Oddy, W. A.
(eds.), R.N.S. Special Publication No. 13, London, 1980, 220 pages, 28
plates, cloth reduced to £8.00

Metallurgy in Numismatics. Volume 2. Oddy, W. A. (ed.), R.N.S. Special
Publication No. 19, London, 1988, 132 pages, 11 plates, cloth £18.00

Metallurgy in Numismatics. Volume 3. Archibald, M. M. and Cowell, M.
R. (eds.), R.N.S. Special Publication No. 24, London, 1993, 296 pages,
38 plates, cloth £40.00
.........................................................................
Greenlight Publishing has been tracked down if you are interested in
the Detector Finds Series:
Please see www.coins-and-antiquities.co.uk/books.html
Greenlight Publishing
The Publishing House
119 Newland Street
Witham, Essex CM8 1WF
Tel: 01376 521900
Fax: 01376 521901
email magazines at easynet.co.uk

I believe the webpage is one short on their historical buckles books
as it lists only six, and the previous page I noted listed 7 books total
published by them. The missing book is:
Guide to Detector Finds : Guide to Dating and Identifying  Buckles,
by Bailey, Gordon; Payne, Greg (Ed.)(Retail Price £6.00Each)

My impression is that the same books are cheaper, and more fully listed
on the following page:

http://www.bookshop.co.uk/ser/serpge.asp?Type=ExactPublisher&Search
=Greenlight+Publishing
........................................................
Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde

From: ulftonn at aol.com (Ulftonn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period coin making
Date: 03 Dec 1999 01:30:07 GMT

>I need some help finding information on how coins were made in period...
>
>I missed the class at Pennsic due to a VERY stupid injury (don't say a
>word Cyd!!!). And I have'nt been able to find much on my own...
>
>So, please send some links or book titles my way...
>
>Douglas the Indecisive

There was a classic exsample found in the Dig at York England.  They found a
money makers house/workshop.  Included in the work related debris was a stamp
for one side of the coin.  Saddly the maker of the stamp had forgotten to
reverse the immage on the stamp rendering it usless.  It was defaced, rapped in
a lead trial piece and thrown into the corner of the shop.

Ulftonn

Date: Fri, 3 Dec 1999 02:30:41 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: Tom Holt <lemming.co at zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: period coin making

The message <19991202203007.26894.00000229 at ng-cq1.aol.com>
  from  ulftonn at aol.com (Ulftonn) contains these words: 
> There was a classic exsample found in the Dig at York England.  They found a
> money makers house/workshop.  Included in the work related debris was a stamp
> for one side of the coin.  Sadly the maker of the stamp had forgotten to
> reverse the immage on the stamp rendering it usless.  It was defaced, rapped 
> in a lead trial piece and thrown into the corner of the shop.
  
At the Jorvik museum in York, they have (or used to have last time I 
was there) a stall where you can have a go at striking a coin, using 
repros of the die found in the dig. The first one I did was vilely 
double-struck, and I learned that the trick is not to bash it as hard 
as you can; hit firmly, two or three times, and make sure the 
hammerhead is square to the die.

Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 16:40:11 -0400
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: - Authenticity List <authenticity at egroups.com>,
        "- sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Coin blanks

As I was going thru the backlog I noticed that someone asked for
a source for planchets (coining blanks) back in May on authenticity.

Since this was a post I put to SCA_moneyers at egroups.com I figured
I'd repeat it here as it comes up from time to time.

 Re: planchet sources

T.B. Hagstoz & Sons Incorporated
709 Sansom Street
Philadelphia, PA 19106
800-922-1006

That's the one Master Tryggvi told me about that he got his planchets
for coining from a good while back, reconfirmed this week.

You might also try Metalliferous in the back of jewelry magazines
or Lapidary Journal (which I've read has classifieds on line).
My catalog is out right now. Metalliferous does practically nothing
but shapes and patterns in various metals.

Magnus

To: Metalcasting at egroups.com
Cc: "- MedievalEncampments at eGroups.com" <MedievalEncampments at egroups.com>
From: rmhowe <mmagnusm at bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2000 16:56:13 -0400
Subject: [MedEnc] Re: [Metalcasting] My 1st pound of coins.

CC'd to MedEnc because of the chariot and wagon finds, drawings and
recreations from mainland Europe:

DianaFiona at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 9/27/00 5:48:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mmagnusm at bellsouth.net writes:
> 
> << Some of these were cast in molds, some of which survive.
>  Kinda look like a string of flat pearls in the clay.
>  Magnus >>
> 
>     Spiffy--I'm looking for ideas of coins to cast! Would you happen to
> remember where in that huge library of yours the refferences might be > found? ;-) - Ldy Diana

from http://www.Bookfinder.com/

Moscati, Sabatino & Venceslas Kruta. THE CELTS. New York, Rizzoli,
1999. 719pp, Bibliography, Photo. & Illus., 8vo, First Edition, New
Softcover. $35.00,  
or
(Book City via Antiqbook)
The Celts, Moscati, Sabatino & Venceslas Kruta; Rizzoli, (c) 1991, 
ISBN: 0-8478-1407-6, Hardcover, dustjacket (one copy, really
expensive)

I have the lower hardbound edition. Apparently there is a new paperback
edition. I did a booksearch to find it. Mine was buried under about 4' of
books in a pile in the (former) living room. :) The hardback seems to
be hard to find at a reasonable price. 

Huge book, lots of color pictures.
A great many tools, struck and cast coins. This thing is indexed by
locality only. I didn't see the coin mould at first glance, but I'm
pretty sure this is the book with it. Lots of chariots and wagons,
weapons (with diagrams good enough to reproduce). Kinda the Ultimate
Celt Book, at least 2" thick by many authors in many countries. 
Lots of metalwork and pottery, and everyday items, sculpture, recreated
graves, oppida, etc. Tremendous amount of jewelry.

Searching books on Celts is like looking for a straw in a haystack.
I have a couple of shelf fulls myself.

Magnus

From: "brogoose" <brogoose at msn.com>
To: <stefan at florilegium.org>
Cc: <windward at gorge.net>
Subject: Anyone Know How to Mint Coins?
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 14:32:21 -0700

> I want to make some simple, stamped coins but don't really have a clue
> about how to do it.  > -Tonwen

Greetings Tonwen,
I have made carved dies and struck coins and I would be happy to discuss
this with you.

But before I do, may I refer you to an excellent article, "An Essay on the
History of Minting in the Society for Creative Anachronism," by His Lordship
(Master?) Ian Cnulle (pronounced Yawn), at
http://www.survone.com/pastlane/cnulle.htm  and
"The Barak Trade Token Coin of the Realm for the Current Middle Ages," which
discusses the process of making coins, at:
http://www.survone.com/pastlane/barak.htm
Master Ian sent me several samples of his work and they are amazing.  Both
of these articles are on the St. Hildegard site, and there are some other
articles of interest as well.  If you have been to Estrella and picked up
one of the copper tokens, you have seen their work.

There is an Interkingdom Moniers' Guild (IKMG) to which several Caidans are
members, I being one.  At the Caidan Metalworkers' "Hammer In" a few years
ago, Master Emmerich of Vakkerfjell, OL, came down from An Tir to Yucaipa
and established a local Chapter for us.  I was the foreman for a while, and
passed that on to Lord Donal O'Brian.  The Dreiburgen Moniers' Guild is part
of this. Master Emmerich has written a book,  "The Moneyers Handbook," which
I highly recommend, contact, James Coffman, 3410 F St., Eureka, Ca 95501

SCA Monier's list at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sca_moneyer
Stefan's Florilegium page is at:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMMERCE/coins-msg.html
An Tir Moniers; Guild page at
http://www.mywackyworld.com/artsci/guilds_moneyers.html and Meridian
Moniers' Guild page  with numerous articles at: www.newmarch.org

Articles at the Meridian Page:
*    "Guild Charter"
*    "Guild Guidelines"
*    "Coin Strike reporting Sheet"
*    "Tools of the Trade"   This page must be viewed with 1024x768 screen
setting.
*    "Introduction to Moneyer's Trade Course Outline" Rum Course SCI106
*    "Blanks, currency, weight and the Shilling" by Ld. Gryffri de Newmarch
*    "A Glossary of Moneyer Terms" by Ld. Gryffri de Newmarch
*    "The Lowly Groat" by Guillaume de Pyrenees
*    "It is Not Counterfeiting"  by Gryffri de Newmarch

Within Caid, Master  Peter of Dun Calma(?) (forgive me, I'm not sure I have
his name right) has done much quality coining and has been kind enough to
give several demos.  Master Robindra of the Isles is head of Caidan's Right
Noble Metalworkers' Guild and he has struck coins and has other useful
sources as well.

And, of course, I am also at your service.

Edwin

From: kestrel at hawk.org
To: stefan at texas.net
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 17:35:10 -0500
Subject: (Fwd) [TY] silly money facts

Something of interest.

Kestrel of Wales

------- Forwarded message follows -------
To:             	meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com
From:           	"jasperrdm" <JASPERRDM at HOTMAIL.COM>
Date sent:      	Fri, 01 Feb 2002 20:35:38 -0000
Subject:        	[TY] silly money facts
Send reply to:  	meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com

The Value of Foreign Coin in England, 1266

Discounting foreign coins.

Montpellier pound failed of full measure by one penny or two at most.
Pound = 243 or 244 pennies Fugacio (?)pound = 240-244 Vrucela (?) and
Flanders pound = 244 Silver of Verona; the pound = 252 silver of
Valencia the pound = 248 Pampeluna, the pound = 242 

 Concerning the denarii of Venice, Genoa, Montpelier of Spain pound =
240-241 Legal money of Cologne: a pound = 246. The false money of
Cologne: pound = 276 or short by 3 shillings. The Brussels pound is
commonly short three shillings. The Marseilles pound = 246 pence

Redeem rate for each pound remelted. The money-changer receives 
thirteen pence or about 4.5 % commission. Or 1 pound (240 pennies) old
coins returns 227 pennies.
    Source.

     From: Hubert Hall, ed., The Red Book of the Exchequer, (London:
HMSO, 1896), p. 979, reprinted in Roy C. Cave & Herbert H.
     Coulson, A Source Book for Medieval Economic History, (Milwaukee:
     
The Bruce Publishing Co., 1936; reprint ed., New York:
     Biblo & Tannen, 1965), pp. 146-147.

Henry I of England: 
Monetary Regulations, 1108

Flor. Wig. ii. 57. Henry, King of the English, decreed that false and
bad money should be amended, so that he who was caught passing bad
denarii should not escape by redeeming himself but should lose his
eyes and members. ource.

     From: William Stubbs, ed., Select Charters of English 
Constitutional History, H. W. C. Davis, rev. ed., (Oxford: Clarendon
     Press, 19I3), p. 113; reprinted in Roy C. Cave & Herbert H.
Coulson, eds., A Source Book for Medieval Economic History,
     (Milwaukee: The Bruce Publishing Co., 1936; reprint ed., New
York: Biblo & Tannen, 1965), pp. 138-139.

Capitulary of Aix-la-Chapelle Concerning Adulterers of Money, 817.

     C.19. Concerning false money, we have ordered that he who has
been proved to have struck it shall have his hand cut off. 

Have to hand to this guy he tough on crime.

FromBritannica.com 
On returning from his crusade, Richard I was captured by the duke of
Austria and was turned over to Henry VI of the Holy Roman Empire. A
ransom of £ 100 000 (24 million pence) was paid for his release in
1194, largely taken from the Jews of England. As a result, the 'short
cross' issue became popular outside of England, particularly in the
low countries and the lower Rhine.

Or if the pence was the size of our penny  24  million pennies an 8 by
8 by 8 foot cubic with 4 9 inch by 9 inch by 9 inch  step stools
weighing about 75.06 tons. That is a lot of change for John Lack Land
to be carrying in his pockets. Do wonder he was such as sour puss.
http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/default.asp  good money site. 

If you were to load 16 tons of pennies you would have loaded 
$51,147.16

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, <LHsu at getty.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Florence's florins and Rome's ducats
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:15:10 -0500

In the 13th Century, Florence began minting florins and Venice began minting
ducats.  Both coins were 3.54 grams of gold.  Venetian ducats became the key
currency of Europe and became the standard for most of the various types of
"ducats" which were minted.  Roman ducats and Florentine florins should have
been roughly equal in value, but the purchasing power might vary between
locales depending on commercial conditions.

An interesting consideration of exchange rates from before into the early
years of the range in question can be found at:
http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/memdb/DatabasesSpecificFiles/About/aboutMueller.a
sp#foreignExchange

And another site with useful information on the coins in question:
http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/MONEYLEC.htm

Some commentary on the Papal Mint which produced the Roman ducat:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10334a.htm

Bear

From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
Date: Mon Aug 25, 2003  10:25:32 PM US/Central
To: - BARONY of WINDMASTERS' HILL <keep at windmastershill.org>
Subject: Grunal Moneta

Happened on this today. Doesn't look too old.

http://www.grunal.com/  A moneyer and jeweler.

Coins for wedding tokens no less. :)

Some entertaining stuff on his pages.
A member of Regia Anglorum in England.

History of minting (struck coins may
have started in Lydia about 700 BC
but the Chinese were casting coins
more than 500 years earliet).

Worth taking a good look at.
Impressed by the prices and the
number of bookings myself.

Magnus

From: val_org at hotmail.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: 9 Apr 2004 17:43:08 -0700

"The Ranger" <cuhulain_-98 at yahoo.com> said:
>...I went and looked for some information on currency
> and coins during the "middle ages" but must not have used the right
> combinations in my Google. What type of currency was available and what was
> it based on? Gold and silver? Gems? Barter? Did the merchant princes that
> came along later formalize standards?
> Many thanks for pointing me in the right directions.

The keywords you need for Google are:

medieval coinage

or

medieval numismatics

The "medieval coinage" search via Google will get you several helpful
and informative web articles very near the top of the search,a s well
as a bunch of sites showing photos and/or drawings of medieval coins
from various locations and time periods.

If you are specifically interested in coins in the Viking Age... 

For a long time the Vikings mostly used whatever coins they brought in
from elsewhere, Arabic silver coins being an important source, but
also French deniers and English pennies.  The earliest coinage minted
in Scandinaia dates ca. 825, and these are anonymous coins that badly
imitate the Carolingian denier.

The first Scandinavian coins associated with kings started appearing
after the rise of nations, ca. 1000.  Sven Forkbeard in Denmark, Olafr
Tryggvasson in Norway, and Olafr Skotkonung in Sweden all issued
coins.

For a good intro article on coinage in Viking and medieval
Scandinavia, I suggest:

Kolbjörn Skaare, "Coins and Mints" in: Medieval Scandinavia: An
Encyclopedia.  Garland Reference Library of the Humanities 934. 
Phillip Pulsiano et al., eds.  New York & London: Garland. 1993. pp.
101-104. Back in print at Amazon.com at:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0824047877/thevikinganswerl

This is an excellent, brief overview of the coins and mints of the
Viking Age and medieval Scandinavia. The bibliography (almost a full
page in and of itself, in tiny print) lists a bunch of
English-language scholarship on the topic.  It's pretty much just
text, not illustrations, but illos are available in the sources listed
in the bibliography.

Note that "Medieval Scandinavia: An Encyclopedia" is expensive - I'd
suggest looking for it in a library unless you're like me and just
*cannot live* without a copy - most of the college/university
libraries I've been in have had a copy in their reference section.

::GUNNVOR::

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 00:36:28 GMT

"The Ranger" <cuhulain_-98 at yahoo.com> wrote:
> When we got back home, I went and looked for some information on currency
> and coins during the "middle ages" but must not have used the right
> combinations in my Google. What type of currency was available and what was
> it based on? Gold and silver? Gems? Barter? Did the merchant princes that
> came along later formalize standards?

Gems don't work as currency because they aren't homogeneous--no easy way 
of judging value. The usual monies in the Middle Ages, both in Europe 
and the Islamic world, were silver and gold. As a very rough rule, 
silver currency tended to be local, gold international. At various 
periods, the major international gold coins were the Byzantine Noumisma 
(aka Bezant), the Islamic dinar, and later the Italian Ducat and Florin.

The medieval European system came in large part from the Carolingian 
monetary reform, which established a system based on the silver penny. 
Initially the penny was 1/240 of a roman pound of silver, so they used 
"pound" to mean "240 pennies." At that point it was a unit of account, 
not an actual coin. There was another unit of account that was defined 
as 12 silver pennies, apparently to maintain continuity with the 
previous Roman monetary system--this became the English shilling.

Over time, silver coinage tended to be debased, so a "pound" meant not 
"a pound of silver pennies" but "240 silver pennies--the number that 
weighed a pound back when the system was set up." Similar things 
happened later with the Italian currencies--a Florin was a gold coin, 
but a "Florin" could also mean a number of silver coins that had 
exchanged for a gold Florin at some time in the past, when the exchange 
rates were stable for long enough so that people got in the habit of 
using the name of the gold coin as a unit of account in silver coins.

Hope that helps.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

From: clevin at ripco.com (Craig Levin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 17:49:58 +0000 (UTC)

The Ranger <cuhulain_-98 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>The kids at my daughter-units' school put on a museum night recently
>depicting life during colonial times. One of the displays was on coinage and
>currency that was made during that time. It caught my imagination.
>
>When we got back home, I went and looked for some information on currency
>and coins during the "middle ages" but must not have used the right
>combinations in my Google. What type of currency was available and what was
>it based on? Gold and silver? Gems? Barter? Did the merchant princes that
>came along later formalize standards?

Let's start with what the Romans left Europe:

There's a nifty webpage on this at:

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~silver/Reference/money.html

The As and the Librum, out in the provinces, were synonyms. This
is why the UK pound abbreviation is a cursive L, and why the
abbreviation for the weight is lb..

For the most part, the librum, sestertius, and the denarius were
what remained for the mints of mediaeval Europe-this is the
origin of the UK shilling and why the UK penny's abbreviation is
d.. The pound, shilling, pence system was pretty widespread all
over Europe, although, naturally, under different names. 

In the Islamic world (and even the Christian Iberian
principalities), the units were based on the dinar and dirhem.
See:

http://www-cm.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/coins/east-west/glossary.html

Now, there was a lot of variation over time-countries would have
coins worth a fraction or a multiple of a dinar/dirhem/librum/
sestertius/denarius struck for various reasons, some of which
might even be based on economics, but others might be out of
vanity, propaganda, etc.. Also, a country could adjust the value
of its money (or mess with its money supply) by adjusting the
amount of base metal in its coins-the less precious metal per
coin, the more coins you could produce out of a given lump of
gold, silver, or copper. That's called debasing the coins. It's
essentially like a country increasing its money supply by running
the presses twice as fast, and the economic effects are about the
same-inflation (usually).

There were no international standards for coins, exactly, but
there were some countries whose coins were basically assumed to
have a stable amount of base metal in them (you've always got to
have a bit, so that the letters and graphics on the coin won't be
bashed into invisibility by daily wear and tear). Near the end of
the Middle Ages, the countries in question were Florence (the
florin) and Venice (the ducat). 

Gold, silver, and copper seem to have been the materials of
choice for coins-paper money really doesn't emerge in the
Occident until the Middle Ages were long since over and done
with, even though the Orient had figured out the idea long ago.

I'm sure that Cariadoc, whose knowledge of economics is immense,
will correct me on several points.

Pedro
-- 
http://pages.ripco.net/~clevin/index.html 
clevin at ripco.com
Craig Levin				Librarians Rule: Oook!

From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 16:45:26 +0000 (UTC)

James A. Donald <jamesd at echeque.com> wrote:
>Tim McDaniel:
>> I don't think it's been clear that gold coinage in the Middle
>> Ages was much less prevalent than silver.  I have a museum
>> exhibit book at home (_Coins and Money_, perhaps, from the
>> British Museum?),

I found it.  Joe Cribb, ed., _Money: From Cowrie Shells to Credit
Cards_ (The British Museum, 1986, ISBN 0 7141 0862 6).  "... published
to coincide with the exhibition 'Money: from Cowrie Shells to Credit
Cards', held at the British Museum from 28 May to 26 October 1986 ..."

I love it because of the many puctures, many of them enlarged, and the
nice overview of so many topics.

>> and I think it says that (for example) no gold coins were minted in
>> Britain between the departure of the Romans and late medieval times
>> (except for a brief and small issue in very late Anglo-Saxon
>> times).

I misremembered.  Sorry.  P. 75 shows "Gold half-florin , or
'leopard', of Edward III, 1344".  It's a leopard passant guardant
crowned, wearing (of all things) a heraldic cape like a Plantagenet
Superman.  "The leopard was unsuccesful and quickly withdrawn because
the minting profits were excessive and it was too highly priced
against silver.  Three more attempts were made before a viable
gold/silver ration was achieved in 1351 with the issue of the
noble.".

>People were seldom willing to use locally minted gold coins,
>due to a well founded distrust of the local authorities.

I know of no evidence of that.  There were various techniques to test
silver money and to deal with bad pennies: assays, blanch (if I
remember right, assume that 1 in 12 is bad), touchstone.  The same
techniques could be used for gold.

To digress, touching on the subject of gold coins, p. 52 has

    145  Coinage proclamation or 'placard' of Philip the Handsome,
         Duke of Burgundy, issued in 1499 (Koninkl{y:}k
         Penningkabinet, The Hague).

         Governments usually tried to ban the circulation of foreign
         coins within their territory, or, if this was impossible, to
         exclude the worst and regulate the rate of exchange of the
         rest.  In this, the earliest surviving placard, the
         Burgundian ruler of the Netherlands lists the permitted
         foreign coins and their official rates of exchange in local
         currency.  The English noble (146) was tariffed above the
         very similar Flemish noble (147) because it contained a
         little more gold.  Of the Rhineland guilden, only those
         illustrated, like that of the Archbishop of Cologne (150),
         made of good gold, were allowed.  The confusingly similar
         guilden of other places, whose pale colour gives away their
         base metal (151), were officially banned, but merchants'
         accounts show that they circulated nonetheless, tariffed at
         an appropriately low figure; the official exchange rates,
         too, were not always followed in the market-place.

Which is to say, if there was money in it, large merchants found a way
to work with it.  And I was really wrong about the use of gold in
period.

The placard has an engraving of the duke at upper left, what are
probably his arms at upper right, an introduction at the top and upper
right, and two tables of description, covering forty-one types of
coins.  (The tables have aligned columns, but no column headings --
abbrev. in each row appear to serve the purpose, like "van xxxvi int
marc".)  And illustrations of various coins in rows at the tops and
bottom (but I don't see how they keyed the illos with the table row it
applied to, except for the two images that were inlined in their row).

There really were close imitations.  The nobles were almost identical
except for the shield the king was carrying, the details of the
sternpost and bowpost of the ship, the nails on the ship, the number
of ropes from the posts to the mast top, and the lettering around the
side.  And that one is a richer gold color than the other.  Similarly
with the guilden.

Sorry to digress all over the place, but I find it interesting to know
how they did proclamations and tables of data.

Daniel de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 08:04:36 GMT

"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu> wrote:
> On 10 Apr 2004 12:34:03 -0700 jamesd at echeque.com (James A.
> Donald) wrote in
> <news:96dc81b9.0404101134.290208d at posting.google.com> in
> rec.org.sca:
> 
> > Tim McDaniel:
> >> I don't think it's been clear that gold coinage in the Middle
> >> Ages was much less prevalent than silver.  I have a museum
> >> exhibit book at home (_Coins and Money_, perhaps, from the
> >> British Museum?), and I think it says that (for example) no
> >> gold coins were minted in Britain between the departure of
> >> the Romans and late medieval times (except for a brief and
> >> small issue in very late Anglo-Saxon times).
> 
> > People were seldom willing to use locally minted gold coins,
> > due to a well founded distrust of the local authorities.  Lack
> > of minting is not necessarily indicative of lack of use.
> 
> People rarely used gold coins at all.

My impression from Cippola's _Money, Prices and Civilization in the 
Mediterranean World_, a book I'm fond of, is that gold was used mostly 
for international trade, with silver used for most local purchases.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

From: "sclark55" <sclark55 at rogers.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:52:19 GMT

Greetings--

> My impression from Cippola's _Money, Prices and Civilization in the
> Mediterranean World_, a book I'm fond of, is that gold was used mostly
> for international trade, with silver used for most local purchases.

This is the general impression I have gained as well. Gold is something that
kings might stockpile, or greater noblemen might have, or the great
international banking houses might trade in.  Lesser noblemen might have
some gold items and occasionally see gold coin, although even it was not
used that much in day-to-day trade.  In England, which I'm most familiar
with,  silver was the basis for most coinage, including the pound, the
shilling, the farthing, the groat, and the penny.  There was gold coinage at
various times, including coins such as the noble, the angel, the florin, and
the sovereign, but it fluctuated greatly during the Middle Ages and early
modern period in both output and gold content.

>Shakespeare regularly uses "gold" as a synonym for "money" or
>"wealth" so people certainly used gold coins in his times.

Gold was probably more commonly in circulation in his period than in the
earlier medieval period.  However, we have to remember that not all precious
metal in circulation was in the form of coinage.  For instance, for
wealthier members of society, they may have kept their silver (and sometimes
even gold) in the form of plate.  Gold and silver were also valued in
jewellery. So the fact that Shakespeare uses gold as a synonym for money or
wealth points to familiarity with gold as being valuable, not necessarily to
wide circulation of gold coinage.  Remember also that just because the upper
classes may have regularly known and used gold coinage didn't mean that most
of the lower classes (the vast majority of society) had ever even seen a
gold coin.

>Similarly when Chaucer tells us:
: :   That theseus hath taken hym so neer, That of his chambre
: :   he made hym a squier, And gaf hym gold to mayntene his
: :   degree.

>I presume this means that Theseus hired Arcite as squire of the
>chamber and paid him in gold coin appropriately for his new
>rank -- which would presumably reflect common practice in
>Chaucers time, rather than practices in Theseus's time.

Yes, but Theseus is great and powerful mythological king.  The use of gold
in such a literary context may serve to emphasize his great wealth and to
thus elevate him and distance him from the present day.  In Chaucer's day,
similar to in Shakespeare's day, the nobility probably had and traded in
gold, to at least some extent.  The lower classes, while they may have never
seen it, knew gold as a mark of great wealth.

You might compare it to today's situation.  We still use gold as a standard
of wealth, even though no Western country I am aware of is on the gold
standard.  Few gold coins are in general circulation, and those few that are
legal tender are purchased mostly as investments. But we immediately still
associate gold with wealth.

Nicolaa

From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: 11 Apr 2004 12:13:42 -0700

James A. Donald:
> > Similarly when Chaucer tells us:
> > : :   That theseus hath taken hym so neer, That of his 
> > : :   chambre he made hym a squier, And gaf hym gold to 
> > : :   mayntene his degree.
> >
> > I presume this means that Theseus hired Arcite as squire of 
> > the chamber and paid him in gold coin appropriately for his 
> > new rank -- which would presumably reflect common practice 
> > in Chaucers time, rather than practices in Theseus's time.

"sclark55"
> Yes, but Theseus is great and powerful mythological king.

In the shipman's tale, the merchant is merely a wealthy 
merchant, but his transactions are routinely in gold.

From: "sclark55" <sclark55 at rogers.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:59:34 GMT

Greetings--

> In the shipman's tale, the merchant is merely a wealthy
> merchant, but his transactions are routinely in gold.

Here are all the references to gold in the Shipman's tale:

19: Or lene us gold, and that is perilous.
284: My gold is youres, whan that it yow leste,
285: And nat oonly my gold, but my chaffare.
354: Lente me gold; and as I kan and may,
357: Youre wyf, at hom, the same gold ageyn
368: The somme of gold, and gat of hem his bond;
404: He took me certeyn gold, that woot I weel, -- 

Notice no reference to coins.  Just "gold." Cound be coins, could be just a
synonym for "money". Remember also that rich merchants, although they
technically ranked below the noble class, could easily have more money and
more international contacts than the nobility.   And this is definitely a
rich merchant, one who seems to aspire to noble rank, given Chaucer's
description of him using some of the language of the knightly virtues.

Nicolaa

From: Buddha Buck <bmbuck at 14850.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:00:36 GMT

James A. Donald wrote:
> James A. Donald:
> 
>>>In the shipman's tale, the merchant is merely a wealthy
>>>merchant, but his transactions are routinely in gold.
> 
> Nicolaa
> 
>>Here are all the references to gold in the Shipman's tale:
>>
>>19: Or lene us gold, and that is perilous.
>>284: My gold is youres, whan that it yow leste,
>>285: And nat oonly my gold, but my chaffare.
>>354: Lente me gold; and as I kan and may,
>>357: Youre wyf, at hom, the same gold ageyn
>>368: The somme of gold, and gat of hem his bond;
>>404: He took me certeyn gold, that woot I weel, -- 
>>
>>Notice no reference to coins.  Just "gold." Cound be coins, could be just a
>>synonym for "money".
> 
> If gold is a synonym for money, this synonym indicates routine use of
> gold money, at least by some prominent and wealthy people, and
> indicates that Chaucer's audience is familiar with this routine use.

No, I wouldn't agree with that as a general principle.  Just because 
gold is used synonymously with money (or wealth), I wouldn't assume that 
gold was commonly used as currency.

For instance, people today still occasionally refer to US Coinage as 
"silver" even though there is no silver content anymore.  The new 
Sacagawea dollar coin is officially referred to as the "Golden Dollar" 
even though its gold content is nonexistant.

Consider this....  Gold is much more valuble than silver.  I do not know 
what the relative value of gold and silver was in our period, but for 
the sake of argument, lets assume it was the same as it is currently: 
about 50:1 by weight (1oz Ag = US$8.13, 1oz Au = US$421.80 as I write 
this, which seems high to me).

That means that a gold coin with the same precious metal content of a 1 
shilling silver coin would be worth about 2.5 pounds.  Using the price 
list for the reign of Edward the first (recorded in the Florilegium file 
p-prices-msg from a message posted by Liam Quin on 17 August 1993, 
citing an 1883 trancrpition of a 16th century collection of manuscripts, 
including the original source for these prices, _The Lives of the 
Berkeleyes_, dated 1321), that single gold coin could buy:

   a ton of wheat...................16s (4s per quarter, average)
   a pair of oxen...................22s (11s ea, average)
   a cow and calf...................10s (highest quoted price)
   2 lambs...........................2s (10-12d each, quoted range)

I'd go to the oxen merchant first....he might be able to best provide 
change.

Incidently, David Friedman stated (in the Florilegium file "coins") that 
the period European silver pennies contained roughly 1-2 grams of silver 
(with the Islamic rough equivalent containing 3g of silver. That size 
would probably make a silver penny about half the general size and 
weight of a current US dime.  A "pennyweight" of silver today (bought at 
bullion spot prices) would be worth about US$0.41.  A similarly minted 
theoretical silver shilling coin like I hypothesized above would have 
weighed about half an ounce  and would have been about the size of a 
Kennedy half-dollar (which weighs about 11g and is based on the silver 
alloy the original coin was minted in).

Incidentally, the same file I cited David Friedman in above also has a 
statement from David Kuijt, dated 23 March 1993, to the effect that 
while prices were quoted in shillings and pounds, they were units of 
account, not units of currency.  There were no coins minted in England 
of shilling or pound denominations until maybe the 15th century.  It's 
possible that Shakespeare may have been generally familiary with a 
shilling coin, but unlikely that Chaucer ever saw an English coin other 
than a silver penny.

 From the point of view of convenience, actual gold would most likely 
used to settle large accounts, in much the same way that banks in the 
US, before the development of electronic funds transfers, would use 
$500-$50,000 bills to settle accounts between banks.  For day-to-day 
transactions people didn't (and don't) use bills larger than $100.

From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:08:15 +0000 (UTC)

Buddha Buck  <bmbuck at 14850.com> wrote:
>Consider this....  Gold is much more valuble than silver.  I do not
>know what the relative value of gold and silver was in our period,
>but for the sake of argument, lets assume it was the same as it is
>currently: about 50:1 by weight

My source here is <http://www.friesian.com/coins.htm>, "British Coins
before the Florin, Compared to French Coins of the Ancien R{e'}gime"
(hideously mistitled: it covers a wide variety of coins and money from
several areas and has lots of tabular data).  I'll first quote the
problem of bimetallism:

    When gold coinage started up in England, the gold was as pure as
    it could be refined. This was not really practical for a heavily
    circulated coinage, since pure gold is so soft and
    malleable. Eventually a 22 carat standard was adopted for the gold
    Crown, and under Elizabeth I this was first used for a pound coin
    (20 shillings), at 33 per Troy pound. The problem that then
    afflicted the gold coinage was not the previous one of weight
    cutting or debasement for fiscal reasons, but fluctuations in the
    relative values of gold and silver, which would lead speculators
    to buy or sell gold and silver to turn a profit. Over time, the
    trend was for the relative value of gold to increase. Without
    cutting down the weight of the gold coins or marking up their
    value, they could be bought for silver at a bargain price. The
    coins might then be exported to be sold elsewhere, draining the
    kingdom of gold coinage.

    Thus, from 1558 to 1670, we see a steady process of cutting the
    weight of the pound coin, or briefly marking up its value. The
    coin also acquired names during that period. James I dubbed the
    coin a "Unite," to commemorate the uniting of the thrones of
    Scotland and England in his person. Later, under Charles II, the
    coin came to be called a "Guinea," since gold at the time was
    coming from the Guinea coast of Africa, ...

Anyway, as for the value ratio: the first gold pound coin was Edward
VI's in 1552.  It was 175 grains and valued at 240p (1.37p/grain),
when the silver penny was 8 grains (.128p/grain), for a gold-siler
value ratio of 11 to 1.

>Incidently, David Friedman stated (in the Florilegium file "coins")
>that the period European silver pennies contained roughly 1-2 grams
>of silver

1 g is getting to be impractically small or thin (coiner takes his
choice: either way is bad).

>(with the Islamic rough equivalent containing 3g of silver. That size 
>would probably make a silver penny about half the general size and 
>weight of a current US dime.

A dime is 2.25g.

>Incidentally, the same file I cited David Friedman in above also has a 
>statement from David Kuijt, dated 23 March 1993, to the effect that 
>while prices were quoted in shillings and pounds, they were units of 
>account, not units of currency.  There were no coins minted in England 
>of shilling or pound denominations until maybe the 15th century.

The site says,

    For a long time the silver penny and the half-penny (given the
    Greek name "obolos" by Charlemagne) were the only coins in
    circulation in Western Europe.  [and after that, the other choice
    was gold coinage] Twelve pennies (pence) "theoretically" would
    equal a solidus ("sou" in French, "shilling" in English), the
    standard Roman/Byzantine gold coin, but this was only a "unit of
    account," to which there corresponded no actual coins until the
    Renaissance.  The first full shilling was minted by Henry VII in
    1504.

That was possible because

    ... governments before the era of paper money and credit resorted
    to debasement and cutting the weight of coins. This occured both
    in England and France, but the debasement went much faster in
    France. By the time of the coinage represented above, it took 24
    French deniers, or 2 sous, to equal just 1 English penny. The
    process by which English silver coinage shrank is represented in
    the following table [omitted]. By the time of Edward III in 1344,
    the silver penny was already down to 20 grains from the 24 grain
    ideal pennyweight. After two centuries, it has shrunk to half
    that. Henry VIII's 10 grain penny of 1544, however, was for the
    first time also debased--no longer Sterling silver. The Sterling
    standard was restored under Edward VI, though with a further loss
    in weight. Nevertheless, in the long run the tiny pennies were
    inconvenient, and in 1672 an official copper coinage was
    introduced for the smaller values. ...

Daniel de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address

From: jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: 13 Apr 2004 08:03:01 -0700

tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote in message
>     When gold coinage started up in England, the gold was as
>     pure as it could be refined. This was not really
>     practical for a heavily circulated coinage, since pure
>     gold is so soft and malleable. Eventually a 22 carat
>     standard was adopted for the gold Crown, and under
>     Elizabeth I

English coinage is irrelevant.  During the medieval period
people used foreign gold coins, and for a long time english
kings were unable to compete with the more reputable big name
foreign coins -- much as as today in some third world mudholes,
everyone prefers dollars to the local rapidly depreciating
inconvertible currency.  For a long time in Brazil, if you
wanted to do a large important transaction, like buying a
house, you would employ a sack full of US $100 bills.   And in
England, if you did a large important transaction in the middle
ages, you would employ foreign, usually gold coins, rather that
English black scrap -- called "black" because the coins were so
adulterated with base metals.

You will notice that in the Pardoner's tale, when the criminals
find a chest of money, it is not English coins, but Florentine.
If it was english, it would not be treasure.

>     For a long time the silver penny and the half-penny
>     (given the Greek name "obolos" by Charlemagne) were the
>     only coins in circulation in Western Europe.  [and after
>     that, the other choice was gold coinage] Twelve pennies
>     (pence) "theoretically" would equal a solidus ("sou" in
>     French, "shilling" in English), the standard
>     Roman/Byzantine gold coin, but this was only a "unit of 
>     account," to which there corresponded no actual coins
>     until the Renaissance.  The first full shilling was
>     minted by Henry VII in 1504.

You keep talking about this english trash, that no one trusted
and few used.

The Florentine florin, was a gold coin first minted in 1254.

This is probably the coin that Chaucer refers to.   The
brothers in Pardoner's find a treasure of freshly minted gold
florins.

The avaricious man in the Pardoner's tale worships his florins:
: :   Man is in the thraldom of ydolatrie. / 
: :   what difference is bitwixe an ydolastre and 
: :   An avaricious man, but that an ydolastre, per 
: :   Aventure, ne hath but o mawmet or two, and 
: :   The avaricious man hath manye? for certes, 
: :   Every floryn in his cofre is his mawmet

This suggests that in accordance with Gresham's law, everyone
attempted to spend that black english trash, but what they kept
in their coffer for their old age was foreign, usually gold,
coin. 

    --digsig
         James A. Donald

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 04:27:21 GMT

jamesd at echeque.com (James A. Donald) wrote:
> This suggests that in accordance with Gresham's law, everyone
> attempted to spend that black english trash, but what they kept
> in their coffer for their old age was foreign, usually gold,
> coin. 

Gresham's law only applies if there is a fixed exchange rate between the 
two coins--one in terms of which one of them is overvalued relative to 
the other. Was there a legally fixed exchange rate between English 
silver and foreign gold? I wouldn't expect it.

Twenty dollar bills don't drive out one dollar bills.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

From: tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 16:47:39 +0000 (UTC)

David Friedman  <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>Gresham's law only applies if there is a fixed exchange rate between
>the two coins--one in terms of which one of them is overvalued
>relative to the other. Was there a legally fixed exchange rate
>between English silver and foreign gold? I wouldn't expect it.

The Burgundian placard I mentioned a day or two ago had fixed exchange
rates between Dutch currency and foreign gold.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_coin_Florin_or_Double_Leopard>
says

    The Florin or Double Leopard was an attempt by English king Edward
    III to produce a gold coinage suitable for use in Europe as well
    as in England (see also Half Florin or Leopard and Quarter Florin
    or Helm). The florin, based on a French coin and ultimately on
    coins issued in Florence, Italy, was a standard coin widely used
    internationally, with a value of six shillings. Unfortunately the
    gold used to strike the coins was overvalued, resulting in the
    coins being unacceptable to merchants, and the coins were
    withdrawn after only a few months in circulation, ...

If the coin traded at its gold value, it could never be overvalued or
undervalued -- unless "overvalued" means "in a denomination too large
to be of practical use", which can't be the case here.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_coin_Twenty_Pence> has

    Until the reign of King Henry III (1216-1272), any need in England
    for coins worth more than one penny was met, at least partially,
    by the use of Byzantine or Arabic gold and silver coins which
    circulated among merchants and traders. However as commerce
    increased, so did the need for higher value coins. In 1257 Henry
    instructed his goldsmith, William of Gloucester, to produce a
    coinage of pure gold. The twenty pence coin was one of the issues
    introduced,  ...

    Unfortunately the issue was undervalued, so by 1265 the gold in
    the coin was worth twenty-four pennies rather than twenty, and it
    is thought that most of the coins were melted down for profit by
    individuals. Consequently this coinage was not a success, and gold
    coins would not be minted again in England until the reign of King
    Edward III.

<http://www.friesian.com/coins.htm>, "British Coins before the Florin,
Compared to French Coins of the Ancien R{e'}gime", has a table of
weights of gold pound coins, starting from Edward VI in 1552.  The
value in shillings fluctuates even when the coin does not -- it was
20s in 1604, but 22s in 1611.  The text is

    The problem that then afflicted the gold coinage was not the
    previous one of weight cutting or debasement for fiscal reasons,
    but fluctuations in the relative values of gold and silver, which
    would lead speculators to buy or sell gold and silver to turn a
    profit. Over time, the trend was for the relative value of gold to
    increase. Without cutting down the weight of the gold coins or
    marking up their value, they could be bought for silver at a
    bargain price. The coins might then be exported to be sold
    elsewhere, draining the kingdom of gold coinage.

    Thus, from 1558 to 1670, we see a steady process of cutting the
    weight of the pound coin, or briefly marking up its value.

Fluctuations in the values of gold and silver could cause speculation,
but unless there was a fixed value to go against, they couldn't "be
bought for silver at a bargain price", and exporting would do no good
without a significant international differences of the gold/silver
value ratio.

So, though I haven't seen an explicit statement, I infer that England
really *was* on a bimetallism standard, with the Gresham's Law
gold/silver value problem that it causes.  Or am I misreading the
texts above?
-- 
Tim McDaniel, tmcd at panix.com; tmcd at us.ibm.com is my work address

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:01:47 GMT

tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
> "Bezant" is the English heraldic term for a
> golden disk, from then until today, much longer than the florin: so,
> if I used your reasoning, I could conclude that the bezant was even
> more important than the florin in medieval times.

Prior to the late medieval period, I think it was. The florin was only 
introduced in the mid-thirteenth century--I'm not sure how long it took 
to become a common coin for international trade. The noumisma, aka 
bezant, was the dominant gold coin for quite a while before that.

At least, that's my memory of Carlo Cippola's account in _Money, Prices 
and Civilization in the Mediterranean World_.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

From: "Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 01:20:55 -0400

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 18:01:47 GMT David Friedman
<ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote 
>  tmcd at panix.com (Tim McDaniel) wrote:
>> "Bezant" is the English heraldic term for a
>> golden disk, from then until today, much longer than the florin: so,
>> if I used your reasoning, I could conclude that the bezant was even
>> more important than the florin in medieval times.

> Prior to the late medieval period, I think it was. The florin was only 
> introduced in the mid-thirteenth century--I'm not sure how long it took 
> to become a common coin for international trade. 

Not long, I think, though I've read that it was loans
connected with the Hundred Years' War that brought it in
large numbers to northwestern Europe.  I've also read that
the genoin, a very similar Genoese coin introduced at about
the same time, was the other international currency of the
period 1250-1400 (roughly), their place being taken in the
15th c. by the Venetian ducato.

> The noumisma, aka 
> bezant, was the dominant gold coin for quite a while before that.

A position that it shared with the dinar, I believe.

[...]

By the way, Table 1 of <www.dwyerecon.com/pdf/eurodl.pdf>
shows that the English pound was extremely stable against
the Florentine florin throughout the 14th c. and in fact
rose very slightly at the end of the century.  The English
appear to have had less reason than most to view the florin
as a safer repository of wealth.

Talan

From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Coins and their Commonality?
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 07:39:43 GMT

"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott at csuohio.edu> wrote:
> By the way, Table 1 of <www.dwyerecon.com/pdf/eurodl.pdf>
> shows that the English pound was extremely stable against
> the Florentine florin throughout the 14th c. and in fact
> rose very slightly at the end of the century.

My memory of Cipolla's book is that there was a period of a century or 
so, around then, when the gold/silver price ratio was quite stable. The 
result was that people came to think of a gold coin, say a Florin, as 
equivalent to a fixed number of silver coins. When the ratio finally 
changed, you ended up with a "florin of gold in gold" meaning the gold 
coin, but a "florin" frequently meaning a florin of account--the number 
of silver coins that used to exchange for a florin. 

Assuming that the English pound was a silver denomination (as it should 
have been, given the history--but I don't know if it actually was) and 
wasn't being debased, the stable price ratio would explain the pattern 
you describe.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

From: Brian Ferguson <bjf10 at the-immortals.com>
Date: November 16, 2007 12:07:41 AM CST
To: pewterersguild at yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [pewterersguild] Pewter Suppliers. Was: Pewter prices just went up again!

Has anyone noticed any difference between the different alloys?   I have definitely noticed a difference between alloys that I've used for  struck coins. Harder alloys are generally more difficult to use, but a  bit of hammer conditioning the ingots before they go into the rolling  mill helps.  I believe if you're casting thin structures that will bear weight (such  as pin backs) you'll want a stiffer alloy.

  -Derian.

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	coins-msg	Page  of