Title: Italy-msg
Subject: Culture of medieval and ren. Italy.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, Italy, culture, history

Italy-msg - 6/26/10

Italian culture, families. Medieval Points of Interest.

NOTE: See also the files: Italy-lnks, popes-msg, fd-Italy-msg, SwissGuard-msg, cl-Italy-msg, fd-Italy-msg, pasta-msg, fd-Sicily-msg, Sicily-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: kreed at gravity.science.gmu.edu (Ken Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Suggestions for books dealing with Ren. Italy.
Date: 22 Mar 1996 16:11:01 GMT
Organization: George Mason University

When you are ready to read somewhat more scholarly works, I would suggest 
these:

Klapisch-Zuber, Christiane. _Women, Family and Ritual in Renaissance Italy._

Herlihy, David and Christiane Klapisch-Zuber. _Tuscans and Their Families._

Kent, F.W. _Household and Lineage in Renaissance Florence._

Davis, James. _A Venetian Family and Its Fortune, 1500-1900._

Pitkin, Donald. _The House that Giacomo Built._

Italian kinship and family structures are different from those of Northern
Europe and are the foundation for many of the other social interactions
you have mentioned.

Baroness Teleri Talgellawg [Susan Reed (the OTHER Reed)]

From: Lenny Zimmermann <zarlor at acm.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Italian history books
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 11:24:16 -0700

> Hello!  Could anyone tell me some good sources for Italian history,
> approximately from 1100 to 1600?  Do any of the books cover that long
> an historical period?  I am interested in the town of Milan, but also
> how the other city-states were influencing it.

This is certainly a tall order! I can tell you that Milan itself is a 
difficult Italian city to choose for historical research. There are 
simply nowhere near the number of sources available on Milan as there is 
for Florence, Venice or Rome. Mainly due to a sacked and destroyed 
library in the late 1300s (or was it early 1400s?).

At any rate, Florence is close enough and was a large enough of a rival 
to at least provide a good deal of general cultural information for 
Northwestern Italy. (Only partially since Florence was a Republic in the 
Rennaisance, where most other city-states were not). 

I would suggest "Rennaisance Diplomacy" as a good book for some good 
general information on the times. Benvenuto Cellini's (1500-1571) 
Autobiography is exceptionally interesting for study of the life of a 
sculptor/soldier during the High Rennasiance since it carries his life 
story through to 1562. Just remember that Cellini was most certainly a 
braggart and a bully, but it is still a most interesting piece. "The Book 
of the Courtier" by Baldasare Castiglione was published in the late 1520s 
and was the definitive book of proper behaviour for a Courtier for the 
next 300 years. If you want Italian court life from 1450 on, I would 
HIGHLY reccomend his work. There is also a new book out that I have heard 
excellent reviews on about the lives of the ruling family in Mantua but I 
cannot for the life of me remember the name.

As you can tell, however, most of my suggestions follow the Italian High 
Rennaisance where my own interests lie. My best suggestion is to hit the 
Library and check out their history section and don't forget to check out 
their historical literature as well. Plutarch's Lives, Dante's Inferno 
and The Decamaron were all highly influential works on Italian culture 
and most Italians were at least familiar with them. Machiavelli can 
provide some good insight as well, as long as you remember his frame of 
mind when he wrote things like "The Prince". I found a very interesting 
book called "The Joys of Italian Humor" which had a few chapters on humor 
from the time period you are looking at. 

It is a fascinating culture and luckily the Italians were fairly prolific 
writers (when their libraries weren't burned down by other Italians). 
Personally I wallow in the joy of going to the library and finding 
something new on Italian culture. Now if only I could learn the Italian 
language better....

Leonardo Acquistapace
(MKA Lenny Zimmermann)
zarlro at acm.org

From: mrcseverne at aol.com (MrCSeverne)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Italian history books
Date: 6 Jun 1996 14:49:30 -0400

In addition to the books Leonardo mentioned (and the book on the Gonzaga
of Mantua is called "A Renaissance Tapestry", written by Kate Simon, if I
be not mistaken,) I would recommend Edward Burman's "Italian Dynasties"
and a biography simply called "The Borgias" (and here it is I who am stuck
for a name... I can't recall who wrote it.)  Both are fairly late, and I
confess that I share Leonardo's bias for things Renaissance. Another
source which I have found excellent is Jacqueline Herald's "Dress in
Renaissance Italy :1450-1500"  Although this is a book about clothes, it
tells a great deal about the people and the culture, going so far as to
discuss moral standards in dress and the financial burdens of fashion. 
Also, Elisabeth Birbari's book "Dress in Italian Painting", one of the
best books I have read about how to decipher the truth of a garment out of
a picture.  Also makes some comments on life as pertinent to clothing, and
shows some of the unlikeliest shots you will ever see of painting
details... laundry hanging out to dry, the inside of the cloak of a man
struck dead, the hook-and-eye on a child's doublet, the dart (yes,
really!) on a woman's bodice.
  I am sorry that my suggestions seem to have turned to costume, but
then... what good is life without fashion? I remain yours in
service......................................Colin  

From: nachtanz at patriot.net (Susan and Ken Reed)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Italian history books
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:14:52 -0400

mrcseverne at aol.com (MrCSeverne) wrote:

> Also, Elisabeth Birbari's book "Dress in Italian Painting", one of the
> best books I have read about how to decipher the truth of a garment out of
> a picture.  Also makes some comments on life as pertinent to clothing, and
> shows some of the unlikeliest shots you will ever see of painting
> details... laundry hanging out to dry, the inside of the cloak of a man
> struck dead, the hook-and-eye on a child's doublet, the dart (yes,
> really!) on a woman's bodice.
>   I am sorry that my suggestions seem to have turned to costume, but
> then... what good is life without fashion? I remain yours in
> service......................................Colin  

Along this line, another excellent book is _Painting and Experience in
Fifteenth-Century Italy_ by Michael Baxandall, 2d edition (Oxford, UK:
Oxford University Press, 1988) which shows how patrons of the arts were
educated and how this, in turn, influenced the development of art and of
how art was perceived. It also discusses pictorial depiction of costume in
this light as well.

One caution on Elisabeth Birbari, though. She bought into the concept that
the Italians showed everything exactly as it appeared in "real life" lock,
stock, and barrel. I also have a background in art history both at the
undergrad and grad levels, and from what I have studied, the Italians were
into "idealized beauty" rather than painting "what they saw" (read some of
the artist's own discussions of "art" being more important than "nature").
They did not paint every little detail "accurately"  (where are the
piecing seams on the narrow silks?) and everything they painted did not
necessarily exist. Jacqueline Herald in _Dress in Renaissance Italy,
1400-1500_  has good discussion on what I call "iconographic" clothing,
clothing that serves as a symbol rather than being garments worn in "real"
life (Margaret Scott in _Late Gothic Europe_ of the same series has an
even better one). Otherwise, Birbari's book is a very good source for
interpretation.
-- 
Susan and Ken Reed                    AFPOPA                 nachtanz at patriot.net

From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Italian history books
Date: 13 Jun 1996 01:17:48 GMT
Organization: Boston University

: > Hello!  Could anyone tell me some good sources for Italian history,
: > approximately from 1100 to 1600?  Do any of the books cover that long
: > an historical period?  I am interested in the town of Milan, but also
: > how the other city-states were influencing it.

I haven't read it, but there is Machiavelli's _History of Florence_,
which will tell you what the Florentines thought about history...Also,
didn't Dante write a history of Florence?  From the look of things, it
looks like Florence was the only city in Italy during the
Renaissance...so I'll start with a few not about Florence:

_A Renaissance Tapestry_, by Kate Simon.  Tells about the Gonzaga of
Mantua; a great story about a house that didn't quite make it.  The
story of how Vincenzo had to prove his manhood is, by itself, worth
the price of the book.

_Before the Industrial Revolution_, by Carlo Cipolla.  This is
economic history; a bit dry, but if you want to know how the European
economy worked in the time period between 1100 and 1700, utterly
fascinating.  

_History of the Italian Republics in the Middle Ages_, by
J. C. L. Sismondi.  Haven't read it, don't know if you can find it
anywhere (I got mine at a library sale for 25c), but the table of
contents is intriguing: entries include chapters on all the major
city-states, including the lesser ones like Pisa and Siena.  

(A quick check through my Britannica gives me the impression that the
English version is a condensation of his sixteen volume --- ! --- work
of the same name.  Sismondi was one of the early economic historians,
ca. 1800, FWIW.)
  
Now for the Florence section...

_Renaissance Florence_, by Gene Brucker.  The title tells you what you
need to know.

_Florence and the Medici_, by H. R. Hale.  I haven't read this yet,
but it looks interesting.

_The Medici_, by Ferdinand Shevil.  A good introduction to the family.

Jeffs

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:36:21 -0600
Subject: More Info from the Historical Costuming List

Good gentles, once again I am forwarding information to you  which first
appeared on the Historical Costuming List.  Gunnora Hallakarva is *not* the
author, but thought that Ansteorrans and other readers of this list might
find this infomation useful:
=====================================================

Date:    Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:05:42 -0500
From:    Mary Smith <MDSDMB at AOL.COM>
Subject: Italian Ren

The following notes are courtesy of Maestra Francesca di Pavia, from the
Shire of Caer Galen, the Outlands. I will forward any comments to her.

"As near as I can tell, there were two basic styles of overdress commonly
worn in Italy in the second half of the 15th Century. One was called a cioppa
or pellanda (regional variations), and was related to a houppelande. It was
very long and full in the skirt. The bodice could be pleated to the skirt, or
could be all one piece with a complex system of pleats starting above the
breastline (possibly tied in place on the inside). The bodice was usually
round-necked and somewhat high, but could be cut lower. The skirt was open in
the front to reveal the skirt of the dress beneath. (BTW, I can see no
evidence that the basic Italian dress, the gamurra, camora, or cotta - again
mainly regional variations - ever had a split skirt and underskirt, as I so
often see done in the SCA. That's a misinterpretation of a gown and an
overgown, as I see it.) The sleeves were generally hanging sleeves, and were
often ridiculously long and full, and sometimes dagged. The second style of
overgown was the giornea. This was a tabard-like affair, which was left open
on the sides to reveal the gown beneath, and was usually cut in a low V-neck
so the bodice beneath could show. This could be sleeveless or have long,
hanging (sometimes dagged) sleeves. In either case the sleeves of the dress
beneath would be seen (and these were often elaborately beaded and
embroidered). (Incidentally, a woman of status would rarely go out in public
without an overdress, except in the summer, and then her gamurra would be of
silk and as heavily embellished as she could muster. Only a lower-class woman
would go about in aplain wool gamurra without a cioppa or giornea.)

"Judging from the many paintings I've seen, there were wide variations in
these basic styles. This was an age of great display of individualism in
costuming, and as much conspicuous consumption as thewearer could afford -
the penalty for violating sumptuary laws was a fine. The nouveau riche
happily paid the fine in order to look more like the nobility."

Francesca di Pavia/Meg Baron
======================================================

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

From: 104310.1415 at CompuServe.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: travel suggestions-Italy
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:53:23 -0800

I spent this past summer in Italy, living in Siena (taking a language 
course at the University there) and travelling every weekend...all of 
this was on a college studnt's budget, as well.

Being partial, I definitely recommend Siena. The Contrada museums are 
the people's history collection...the period garb used for the Palio 
is authentic as it can get, and it's all there for us to see. Also, 
the entire town within the walls is medieval. It has the ambience.(I 
was a soaking sponge for two months!)

An Italian rail pass was a deal but also a pain as I couldn't use it 
on the faster trains without paying a supplement. (It worked out to be 
a deal, however.)

Youth hostels are great and the most inexpensive. I also used Lonely 
Planet's guide to Italy, which was very good at listing cheap hotels 
in safe areas. A warning about the book (my only gripe) is that the 
times for the museums and sites are wrong. This cost me my one chance 
to see inside St. Mark's (Venice) (Go there!!!!!) because I happilly 
arrived an hour late following my book's incorrect time. Oh well.

The Ducal Museum in Venice has a great armory exhibit and fascinating 
prisons with prisonor's graffitti from 1500 (for example).

If you have other questions for me, Ailith, you can eMail me 
(muirne at earthlink.net)
BUON VIAGGIO! CIAO, Muírne ní Chatain

From: mittle at panix.com (Arval d'Espas Nord)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: developing Italian persona - need lotsa help
Date: 28 Jan 1997 11:02:43 -0500
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

In article <5cf1vk$fe at Holly.aa.net>, cire at mail.nwinfo.net (eric) writes:
> I am new to the SCA and have decided on Italian for my family's
> person. Need lotsa help with everything:
>  Names - Clothes - Tents - etc

You can find information on Italian names at
http://www.panix.com/~mittle/names. 
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord                                         mittle at panix.com

From: lsteele at mtholyoke.edu (Lisa Steele)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: developing Italian persona - need lotsa help
Date: 29 Jan 1997 02:41:42 GMT
Organization: Mount Holyoke College

eric (cire at mail.nwinfo.net) wrote:
> I am new to the SCA and have decided on Italian for my family's
> person. Need lotsa help with everything:
>  Names - Clothes - Tents - etc
> Please help.

  Italian is not the easiest place to start. There is a wealth, indeed a 
confusing morass of historical material available. On the other hand, the 
politics and history are hideously complex and there are not many general 
overviews available.
  Pick a region and likely a city -- Florence, Venice, Milan, Rome, all 
the major cities have fairly accessible materials. Then pick a time 
period -- at least a century and perhaps a fraction thereof (1st half, 
2nd third, whatever).
  Then I can likely give you some places to start looking for more 
information.
  --Esclarmonde

From: donato at stlnet.com
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:12:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Italian Names?]]

>   I am trying to create a SCA persona from the Italian race.  To date I
>have been unable to find ANY names or backgrounds.  ANY help will be
>greatly appreciated.  Thanks for any help you can give me.
>
>				Denise Williams

Machavelli's "Florentine Histories" and "The Prince," and Castligone's "Book
of the Courtier" should give you ample background on life in the city states
and among the gentry.

Also there is a book called "Italian Folktales" (sorry I can't remember the
editor) which has some interesting cultural anecdotes.

Donato 

From: "Nathan W. Jones" <njones at ix.netcom.com>
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:41:01 -0800
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [Fwd: Italian Names?]]

Donato wrote:
> Machavelli's "Florentine Histories" and "The Prince," and Castligone's "Book
> of the Courtier" should give you ample background on life in the city states
> and among the gentry.
> 
> Also there is a book called "Italian Folktales" (sorry I can't remember the
> editor) which has some interesting cultural anecdotes.

For first names, try Shakespeare.  And for a great read about Florentine life
try "Two Memoirs of Renaissance Florence", (and I don't have it close to hand
to tell you the editors name, I want to say Gene Brucker.)  Oh, and don't 
forget "The Autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini", which also happens to be
a really great read.

Gio

From: jarnott at sallie.wellesley.edu (Jennifer C. Arnott)
Newsgroups: soc.history.living,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Blacks in Renaissance Italy
Date: 29 AUG 97 18:02:41 GMT
Organization: Wellesley College

Regarding blacks in Renaissance Italy:

I took a seminar on Renaissance Florence last semester, and as part of the 
course work, we had to pick articles dealing with various subject areas.

One of the ones I read had to do with slavery in Florence, which, if I 
remember correctly <and I might not, as this was last spring, and I don't 
have any of my notes from that segment of class handy> was in its prime 
between 1450ish and 1530. The slaves were principally from Turkey and 
Eastern Europe - but from non-Christian areas or groups <there were laws 
against enslaving Christians> 

However, many of them also came from Northern Africa. Slaves were most 
commonly young women <9-12 years old> who would be bought as nursemaids/
maids of all work - and yes, they would sometimes be concubines for the son 
of the house. <Sons, even...>

It was not *incredibly* uncommon for these slaves - especially the women - 
to be released from slavery when their charges were grown, given a small 
lump sum,and left on their own. On the other hand, they were also often 
favourite family retainers...

It was also pointed out that although the slaves *were* exposed to physical 
violence, it was at about the same level that the children of the family 
were - in other words, their master was equally brutal with both the slaves 
and his own blood. 

The article in question - and I'm sorry I don't have full information - was 
in Renaissance Quarterly. I want to say that the Volume number was either 
#30, or in that area, which puts it in the late 70s/early 80s, I think. If 
anyone is interested, next time I get a chance to go hunt the library 
stacks, I can see if I can get complete information. The title was 
something along the lines of "Slave ownership in <time period> Italy."

Looking at the city records from Florence might get you somewhere, as well.
. they're among the most complete <and most complete for a cosmopolitan 
area> of their kind. 

-Cecilia Peters
MKA Jennifer Arnott
jarnott at wellesley.edu

Subject: Re: ANST - Sightseeing recommendations
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 13:57:11 MST
From: Joe Wolf <WolfJ at bisys.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>>> Lisa Sawyer <ysabeau at interquest.de> 01/26/98 10:06AM >>>

I am planning a long trip to Italy this summer and I am looking for
suggestions on little known yet historically significant places to go and
see. We will be homebased near Pisa and will have a car. I have been
reading the guide books but there has yet to be written a guide book for
SCAdians -at least not that I've heard of.

So, any recommendations?

Ysabeau of Prague
Shire of Vielburgen, Drachenwald
(Baumholder, Germany)
ysabeau at interquest.de

Take a boat (or puddle-jumper plane) across the Adriatic to Dubrovnik,
Yugoslavia.  The "Old City" is a walled, medieval fortress-city that is
maintained in near original condition!  Torches are placed along the walls
in the evening, and vendors come out hawking flowers, drinks, and eats...
young lovers sit together upon the walls overlooking the waters of the
Adriatic.  Major atmosphere!

Many museums and galleries of medieval antiques and relics.  Well worth the
trip!!

Lord Manfred Wolf          mka          Joe Wolf
Barony of the StarGate                    Houston, TX

Subject: Re: ANST - Sightseeing recommendations
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 98 23:21:34 MST
From: "Casey&Coni" <cjw at vvm.com>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Ooooor, if you aren't so interested in gunfire... you could go right up the
street (about 30 min by car) to Firenze and step inside the Ufizzi Gallerei
(if you'd like to see Botticellis Birth of Venus), La Academie (If
Michaelangelos David is of interest to you), La Palazzo Medici-Ricardi (for
all that nifty Medici family history), Dante Alighieri's house,  as well as
Cellini's Perseus right out in the town square.  The architecture is
exquisite- don't miss La Piazza della Signoria, La Basilica de Santa Maria
del Fiore (the facade of this building is one of the most famous in the
world), Giotto's Campanile (**82 meters high**), the Baptistery, and so on,
and so on, and so on.  Am I waxing nostalgic?

Go there.  You won't have to stay in a hotel or a hostel as you can just jot
back to Camp Darby (where I suspect you'll be staying anyway).

Oh, and hit the beach... it's lovey, dear, just lovey.

Ritter Dieterich

Subject: Re: ANST - Sightseeing recommendations
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 10:17:04 MST
From: Askell <Askell at aol.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

Ysabeau,

As exciting and lovely as Dubrovnik was in earlier years, it took heavy damage
during the war.  It is considered safe for tourists now and they are
rebuilding/restoring but still, considering that it is quite a distance from
where you will be staying, why not spend your time in closer, equally
exciting places.

There cannot be enough wonderful things said about Firenze.  Just seeing The
David is reason enough for the trip.  With all the photographs I had seen, I
was still completely unprepared for the power of the piece.  I actually shed a
tear or two at its sheer beauty and power.  You can find locandas/pensions for
a pittance (we paid less than $15 American for a place less than a block from
the Duomo in the heart of the old city--ok, it was a room on the fifth floor
with the privy down the hall--but it was clean and had a GREAT location). Try
'Let's Go Europe' as a source for inexpensive accomodations, markets, and
eateries.  It is put out annually by the Harvard Student Union, available in
book stores everywhere and dearer than gold when you travel.

If you rent a car, there are several hilltop, beautifully preserved, medieval
walled towns in the area.  They are smaller than Dubrovnik, further off the
well beaten tourist path, but well worth the trouble of the finding them and
the climb (some are still only accessable by footpath and/or footbridge).

Regardless, in the big cities (especially Rome!!!!!) keep you money inside
your clothes, don't worry about your personal safety (all of Western Europe
is much safer than Houston), and have a wonderful time!

Melody macGregor of Stargate

Subject: Re: ANST - Sightseeing recommendations
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 98 11:13:56 MST
From: Joe Wolf <WolfJ at bisys.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

A Couple of hours south of Firenze is Assisi... a medieval town and home of
St. Francis.  They have maintained the medieval castle (Rocka Majora) and
allow tours through it as well.  The small city has quaint shops and
sidewalk cafes, and the people are some of the friendliest I encountered in
Italy.

Also, there was a college student who worked out of the castle, and was
funded by a division of the Italian government, recreating armor and weapons
excavated from the catle.  He sold some of the pieces of his work (all hand
forged) and I was lucky enough to obtain a wonderful double-edged dagger
(which Lord Wolfgang von dem Hoffen often drools over!).  I think you would
enjoy an afternoon in Assisi!

Lord Manfred Wolf              mka               Joe Wolf
Barony of the StarGate                             Houston, TX

Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 09:03:13 -0500
From: Brian Songy <bxs3829 at usl.edu>
Subject: SC - Venizia - off topic

>The old manager of the lodge was a WW II vet.  He told me that they =
used the twigs, leaves and already >squeezed fruit skins and pulp to =
make his grappa.  He also hinted at secret ingredients, one of which was =
really >moldy fruit pulp from early in pressing season... Still knocked =
my socks off!  We held the event outside Venice >near Aviano Air Base.  =
At the base of the Alps.  What a view!  Miss it something else.
>Balldrich

Aviano!!!  I was there from Jan to May 96.  Great place.  Where exactly 
did you hold the event?  Pra Da Plana (a hotel at the foot of the alps)? 

Did you get to eat at L'Florin in Venice?  It is a restaurant that dates 
back to the 16th century, in San Marco square in Venice.  The food is 
okay, the prices were high, but the environment was excellent.  The 
architecture in Venice would dazzle even the most jaded individual.

My first exposure to grappa was in a little "no name" restaurant in 
Venice (once again, we were lost) during Carnivale (Mardi Gras).  :)

When we later went skiing at Piancovalo (in the Alps, north of Aviano), 
grappa accompanied us up the slopes.  In Piancovalo they had alembics 
(brass, table-top stills for making grappa) for sale;  I'm still kicking 
myself for not buying one.

Much of the  grappa comes from Basano di Grappa (Grappa Mountain?), a 
region of Italy right on the border of Croatia (formerly Yugoslavia).  
Plain grappa is usually clear to straw color.  It is very common to find 
it flavored with a variety of herbal products:  anise, thyme, etc. All 
of the occurrences of flavored grappa that I encountered,  only a single 
herb was used in each type.

Brian Songy
USL/NIRC
Bxs3829 at usl.edu

P.S.  IMHO Anyone who visits North-eastern Italy should check out 
Palabonova (spelling?).  It is a city between Venice, Udine and Trieste. 
 In the late middle ages (I believe) they begun to build the 
fortifications, and continued into the early 20th century!  Lacking any 
significant terrain features it developed into a perfect "star fortress" 
;  The entire city is laid out in a geometric plan, with a series of 
concentric walls surrounding it.  From the inner (oldest) brick wall to 
the outer (WW I era) gun emplacements, it is 440 meters.  The scale and 
perfection of the geometry is impressive.  Few tourists visit it, so 
it's a nice change from some of the other sights in NE Italy (San Marco 
square, the Uffize, etc.).  Just my two cents.  YMMV.

From: "Barbara Benson" <vox8 at mindspring.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Books
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:27:06 -0400

I am not certain what items interest you, but I am reading a fascinating
book right now that has more information per page than most books have in
their entirety. It is a difficult read (like a textbook) but if you are
interested in Venice then it is wonderful.
Venice: The Lion City, Garry Wills, 0-684-87190-4, Simon & Schuster (c)2001.

also in the pile, but again, highly specialzed as far as subjects go:
The History of Decorative Arts: The Renaissance and Mannerism in Europe,
Alain Gruber, Abbeville Press 1-55859-821-9.

Carpaccio, Vittorio Sgarbi, Abbeville Press 0-7892-0000-7. (in case you do
not know Carpaccio one of the if not the most famous Venitian painter
durning the end of the 15th and begining of the 16th century. This book has
absolutely spectacular color plates with details that will make your jaw
drop.

I was able to find all three on Amazon, but be aware that the bottom two are
quite pricy books, the cheapest I saw them online being $75 and $50
respectively. I found them locally for $45 and $25, but then I am the master
shopper!!!

Serena da Riva

Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:20:17 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Online facsimiles (mostly in Spanish)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

For the Italophiles, there's a facsimile of Scappi's Opera
http://cisne.sim.ucm.es/search*spi/g?SEARCH=DIOSCORIDES

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Tue, 18 May 2004 09:26:03 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [SCA-AS] encyclopedia of medieval italy
To: EK Arts & Science list <EK_AnS at yahoogroups.com>,	Arts and Sciences
	in the SCA <artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>

This was mentioned and well-reviewed in my latest collection development 
update:

Medieval Italy: an encyclopedia.  ed. by Christopher Kleinhenz with John 
W. Barker, Gail Geiger, and Richard Lansing.  Routledge, 2004. 2v bibl 
index afp ISBN 0-415-93929-1, $295.00 . Reviewed in 2004jun CHOICE.
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Italian olive history
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Great site, I would love to visit the place:
http://www.museodellolivo.com/eng/index.htm

If you go to the in-depth information, you'll see stuff about the 
Middle Ages in Italy. Apparently olive culture plummeted and the oil 
was scarce and expensive.

Gianotta

From: jk <klessig at cox.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bologna, Italy
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 01:52:21 -0700

Charlene Charette <see.sig at for.address> wrote:
>I'll be in Bologna, Italy, the afternoon of July 29th.  Any "must sees", 
>especially textile-related?
>
>--Charlene

I was in bologna in Feb for a few days.
In my opinion, go somewhere else.
I wasn't all that impressed with bologna. THe museums were
interesting, but not VERY interesting.  The views are all crowded in
by the famous arcades, so that it is difficult to actually SEE
anything. I didn't get a change to go up in the tower, but photos form
there look fantastic.

Ferrara is an hour or so away by train, I liked it a lot more
even though most every thing was closed that I was interested in.
=======

OTOH if you are stuck with Bologna, I can recommend one resturaunt.
Monte Grappa.  IT wasn't far off of the Piazza Maggiore, 
I was looking at menus trying to find some where that looked good to
eat, while the waiter was out getting a smoke.  He proudly proclaimed
 that "this Is the best restaurant in Bologna!". I figured no way, and
that he was just copping attitude.  He might very well have been
right.  Just a little hole in the wall sort of place.

jk

From: jk <klessig at cox.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Bologna, Italy
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2005 16:02:22 -0700

Ted Eisenstein <alban at socket.net> wrote:
>> OTOH if you are stuck with Bologna, I can recommend one resturaunt.
>> Monte Grappa.
>Mount Booze?
>
>Alban

More like mount white lightning, but yea.  I think it is also the name
of a local mountain, and a street near the restaurant.

jk

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 2009 14:25:40 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Naples
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Stay in Sorrento and do the water ferry into Naples for the museum, the
castle and a meal or two. From Sorrento you can easily access Pompeii and
Herculaneum as well as Naples. DO NOT HANG around the train station and be
very careful of pick pockets when/if you get off the train from Rome. My
suggestion (and I think Rick Steve's) is to immediately get your ticket to
Sorrento and head downstairs for the train.

Naples is an interesting place to visit for a short time but all in all I
agree with Michael there are other places in Italy you could spend your
time. 

Eduardo 

On 8/7/09 2:14 PM, "Michael Gunter" <countgunthar at hotmail.com> wrote:
<<< That bad? I'm thinking of going this autumn.
Giano >>>

I didn't have too much experience in Naples but it has
an overall bad rep. Even Samantha Brown had a hard
time coming up with nice things to say about it.

Think of the bad aspects of Chicago and New York
City. It is very fast paced, unforgiveable traffic for
both driver and pedistrian, rather rude and totally
different from pretty much the rest of Europe.

Sure, there are some nice things, great food, lovely
surroundings and such. But the same things can be
found in much more relaxing environs in Italy.

Even most of the travel writers say a day in Naples is plenty.

Gunthar

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Naples
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Don't forget another very, very important part of Sorrento- LIMONCELLO!! If you enjoy the smell of lemons you will love it, it hangs in the air there. 

Raffaella  

Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 08:13:52 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Eating in Florence

For a higher end experience (but not super expensive)Chingalle Bianco which
is on your side of the Arno down a side road just before the Ponti Vecchio
is great. On that same road (a little further down) is Mama Gia (or Gina's).
Also very nice. There is a GREAT Pizza lunch stand across the road from the
Medici Chapel and down a block on the corner! A bit vague but worth the trek
especially if you are already at the Medici Chapel which is sort of off the
beaten track. The is also an AMAZING little hole in the wall lunch counter
that ONLY had Italians in it when we were there but I would have to draw you
a picture and I don't remember the name of it.

What kind of food do you like?

The market is a great place to get lunch.

There are some fantastic Gelato places in Florence.

I have never really had a bad meal. The sandwich shops and small stop and
gos are good. 

There is always the McDOnald's next to the train station! :)

Eduardo 

On 4/9/10 7:51 AM, "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< In just under 2 weeks, I'm heading to Florence.  This is my first time
in Italy.  I will be there just for 4 days, so I'm not planning any
side trips.  Anyone have any recommendations for
restaurants/markets/specific foods to try?  (Bonus points if the
restaurants are ones where an American woman a little past her
half-century mark would feel comfortable eating alone.)  My hotel is
near the Bargello Palace, if that matters.  TIA!

Brighid ni Chiarain (trying to cram some Italian, but finding that it
keeps blurring into Spanish) >>>

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	Italy-msg	Page  of