Russia-msg - 12/19/09

Russian and Kievian Culture and language.

NOTE: See also the files: fd-Russia-msg, Rus-Handbook-art, Rus-women-art, Russia-bib, Kiev-Slavery-art, Mongols-msg, Mongl-Mission-art, cl-Russia-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: kpayne at heartland.bradley.EDU (Kevin Payne)
Date: 22 Oct 91 04:06:12 GMT

Greetings to the Rialto from the long-absent Nikolai
Kyrilovich Khorobrit!  Now that I have caught up on my
reading, I should like to post a few thoughts.

A couple of weeks back there was some discussion about the 
role of the Scandanavian races in Russia, and of chivalry in 
Russia.  Someone at the time stated that the Swedes 
conquered Russia, and I thought I'd better correct this, as 
well as some other items that my study and research show 
to be misinformation.

My sources are:

Volkoff, Vladimir, "Vladimir, The Russian Viking", Overlook 
Press, Woodstock, New York, 1984

Fennell,.J.L.L., "Ivan the Great of Moscow", Macmillan & Co., New 
York, 1961

Cross, Samuel Hazzard and Sherbowitz-Wetzor, Olgerd, trans. 
and ed., "The Russian Primary Chronicle - Laurentian Text", 
Medieval Academey of America, Cambridge, Massachusetts, 
1953

The story is that about 800 A.D. or so some of the Slavic tribes 
of the northern Russian plains (the town of Novgorod in 
particular is named), despaired of the great upheavals and lack of 
law and order in their lands, and so sought the aid of a group 
of Viking princes (Varangian Russes), the chiefest of which was 
Rurik.  This Rurik became the first Prince of Novgorod and is 
said to have founded the first royal house of Russia (and there 
are only two:  the Rurikids, who died out in the 17th century 
and were replaced by the Romanovs).

In a nutshell, that is the legend of the "calling of the princes", 
and Russian history is generally traced from this point.  But 
there is sizable disagreement over the nature of the Rus.  One 
school (Norman) asserts that the Rus were a Scandanavian tribe 
related closely to the Swedes, Angles, and Varangians who came 
into Russia and imprinted their values and beliefs on the 
Russian nobility.  The other (Slavic) refutes this, claiming 
instead that the Rus were Slavic in origin, with perhaps a 
smattering of Scandanavian elements.  

All of my sources disagree on the origin of the Rus.  The 
Primary Chronicle claims that Rurik and his two brothers were 
from across the Balticand were indeed Vikings; archaelogical 
evidence seems in many cases to point to the Slavic theory.

In any case, there WAS siginificant contact between the Slavic 
tribes and Scandanavian groups, especially the Swedes.  The 
Varangians are known to have traveled the river routes from 
the Baltic to the Black Sea to Constantinople regularly during 
the 9th through 11th centuries, and the first Russian empire 
centered on Kiev was a great trade city on those trade routes.
The Arabs too were involved in trade through the region.  
Throw in the almost incessant incursions of  nomads from the 
east (Polovtsians, Khazars, eventually the Mongols) and you 
have a real melting pot.

HOWEVER, Russia was never "conquered" by the Swedes or any 
Scandanavian group, nor by the Byzantine Empire, and indeed, 
never by the many nomadic tribes until the Mongol Horde in 
the 13th century.  In fact, the Viking element (assuming that it
existed and influenced the Slavic folk) appears to have done
what it did in places such as England:  i.e., merged into the
mainstream of the "common" people.

The second question was about the nature of chivalry in Eastern 
Europe, Russia in particular.  Given the close contact between 
the Scandanavians, the fact that the cities of northern Russia 
(Novgorod and Pskov in particular) were members of loose 
trading confederations based in Germany (eventually the 
Hanseatic League), and Kievan Russia maintained distinct ties 
with Byzantium as well as the lands westward of Kiev, it is 
obvious that Russia did not exist in a vacuum.

I haven't done any specific reserach on chivalry in Russia, but 
can point out that the "bogatyri" were great knights who 
participated in fantastic adventures and apparently strove to be 
brave, strong, and defenders of the weak.  Many of them are 
legendary (Ilya Murametz, Svyatogor the Brave), but later ones 
are better documented and more historical in nature.  I think it 
is probably safe to say that there was some conception of 
chivalry in Russia, but it was uniquely suited to the unique 
challenges of the land.

These facts are as true as I can relate them.  The opinions are 
my own.  Correspondence with someone more educated in 
Russian history and culture is appreciated.  Corrections 
appreciated as well.  For good historical fiction partly about
period Russia, read "Russka" by Edward Rutherfurd, 1991 from
Crown.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Nikolai Kyrilovich Khorobrit, Bard
Reluctant Pursuivant Far Reaches, Middle Kingdom
------------------------------------------------------------------

From: cav at bmerh364.BNR.CA (Rick Cavasin)
Date: 5 Dec 91 21:56:01 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd.

Unto Alison MacDermot does Lord Balderik send his greetings.

For some interesting info on personal communications, see 
Novgorod the Great, M.W. Thompson  Frederick A. Praeger, New York
A large volume of birch bark manuscripts (spanning the middle ages)
have been unearthed in Novgorod.  They are mostly 'spent' messages.
They include personal communication between family members, messages
from landowners to overseers, children's lessons and doodles, etc.
The script is an old form of cyrillic.

Regards,
Balderik

From: fnklshtn at axp1.acf.nyu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian sources??
Date: 14 Nov 93 02:17:30 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY

bpung at phoenix.cs.uga.edu (Benjamin Pung) writes:
>I am a relatively new member, though I've been acquainted with the SCA for
>years. I'm working on the name/persona thing and am looking for good sources
>for applicable Russian history, customs, costume, etc.
>Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Ben Pung
>Barony of Bryn Madoc, Meridies

The Russian Chronicle - a history written as things happened (ends, I believe,
in 12th century).

Read the fairytales and Sagas. I think they were collected and written down
after the revolution but the peasants were fairly "backward" -- Peter the Great
modernized the nobles by bringing in European culture but the nobles basically
became French rather than combining it to make a new Russian culture, thus the
peasants retained what had been before.
Watch the old soviet movies - "Alexander Nevski" "Ivan Grosny" "Andrei Rublev":
I noticed the credits on Andrei Rublev - they included three history experts as
opposed to one costume designer. I believe the same may be true for the other
two movies though "Alexander Nevski" is a propaganda piece as is "Ivan Grosny"
(though not as blatant).
Andrei Rublev is probably the best one - a poignant, no-holds bared portrait of
15th century Russia (through the eyes of the artist - Rublev)

Nahum 

From: mcs at unlinfo.unl.edu (M Straatmann)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: kvas reference
Date: 29 Nov 1993 22:46:24 GMT
Organization: University of Nebraska--Lincoln	

In my last post discussing kvas with Balderik, I promised the 
reference and then promptly forgot to include it.  Here it is:

Bread and Salt
A social and economic history of food and drink in Russia.
R.E.F. Smith and David Christian
Cambridge University Press 1984
ISBN - 0 521 25812X

Good book,
misha

From: goldschm at ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Russian Names
Date: 30 Nov 1993 22:36:35 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

I seem to have missed the thread on this subject, but I heard that
my artcuile from the symposium was mentioned and I thought that I
would mention that a revised version of it is being carried by
Folump Enterprises, 805 E Green, Urbana IL  61801.  The cost (I
think) is $5, but you can write for info.

I also have a list of cities and towns in medieval Russia which I
can send to interested parties at cost, and I am working on a list
of Russian medieval saints (good for documenting Christian names).
Meanwhile I have been slaving away on a dictionary of given names
(with around 12K entries so far -- heading to 40k).  I'm even starting
work on a much expanded piece on Russian medieval grammar for 
Onomastics.  

You can reach me at GOLDSCHM at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu (which is not the
address I am writing from).  I'm hardly ever on the Rialto, so don't
try writing me here.

-- Paul Wickenden of Thanet 

From: pwgg7938 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul W Goldschmidt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Russian Names III
Date: 1 Dec 1993 01:07:07 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

 finally found the thread.

I feel obliged to respond to the person who said that Russian had not
changed that much since 17th century.  I wiowould agree that it has
b  not changed much sinmce 1720, but that is post period.  Older
Russia texts (11-15th century, for example) are usually in Old Church
Slabonic (Slavonic -- I was transliterating) [God, I hate the editor
on this machine!  Anyway....]  The old docs are in OCS which is VERY
different from Modern Russian.  Never mind that some period manuscripts
are written in latin letters (which is VERY painful to read).  As for
the Names....well, they are also very different.  The modern form
(given name-patronymic-surname) exists, but it not common.  Patronymic
grammar was also highly variable (I've documented at least a dozen
different tyoxxxxx   tupes  [arg!!!]  TYPES [!] of patronymics).

If you want to know about this, write me on my OTHER account (the one
with the friedly -- fried.....FRIENDLY!!! editor that does not make me
look so bad :<  :"  :'

goldschm at vmd.cso.uiuc.edu

-- Paul Wickenden of Thanet

From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Kievan Rus' Bibliography.....
Date: 25 Jan 1994 15:45:42 -0500
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings....
	And now, a month after I first said I'd post it, here's my
introductory bibliography for the study of early Russia--

Cross, S.H. and Sherbovitz-Wetzor, O.P., eds. _The Russian Primary
Chronicle, Laurentian Text.  Cambridge, MA, 1953.

Fedotov, G. _The Russian Religious Mind:  Vol I: Kievan Christianity: The
Tenth to the Thirteenth Centures_.  Cambridge, MA, 1946.

Fr.Chirovsky, Nicholas.  _An Introduction to Ukrainian History_, Vol.I.
New York, 1981.

Michell, R. and Forbes, N. trans. _The Chronicle of Novgorod, 1016-1471._
Camden Third Series, Vol. XXV.  london 1914.

Riasanovsky, Nicholas V. _A History of Russia_. New York, 1984.

Thompson, M.W. _Novgorod the Great_.  London, 1967.

Tikhirmirov, M. N.  _The Towns of Ancient Rus'._  Moscow, 1959.

Tkach, Yuri. _History of Ukrainian Costume._  Melbourne, 1980.

Vernadsky, George. _Kievan Russia_.  New Haven, 1948.

________________. _Medieval Russian Laws._  New York, 1947.

Volkoff, Vladimir. _Vladimir, the Russian Viking_.  Woodstock, NY, 1985.

Zenkovsky, Serge A. _Medieval Russia's Epics, Chronicles, and Tales._
New York, 1974.

More may be added as my research progresses--there is no book on here
which I have not personally read.  All these books are in English and
some are available in bookstores.  My apologies for not providing
complete publisher info--e-mail me if you need it.

Tonight I give the first meeting in preparation for the Novgorod event.
Were it not for my great love of history and the people of the SCA,
I think I would have dropped this organization forever about 15 minutes
ago.

St. Doug, protect us.
Nicolaa/Susan
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: pyuaq at csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr G S Sutherland)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Christianity Quiz...
Date: 17 Mar 1994 13:01:59 -0000
Organization: University of Warwick, Coventry, UK

Susan Clark (sclark at epas.utoronto.ca) wrote:

+ 13.) When did st. Vladimir Convert Russia officially to Christianity?
+ (Bonus points for anyone who can tell me why he supposedly did so)

	It was somewhere around 988.

	Why? Firstly, it was to bring the Rus into the European political
sphere. Since they were a bunch of heathens (Good on them!) they were
ostracised by the Christian kings who shared their borders. Apparently the
choice of religion was taken from the following list:

	Roman Catholicism (Rejected because there was no glory in its
		worship.)
	Islam (Rejected because the Rus would have to give up drink. But
		Vladimir did like the multiple wives teaching... )
	Judaism (Rejected because the Khazars lived in poor conditions.
		Ergo it was interpreted as them not having God with them.)
	Eastern Orthodoxy (Accepted because of the glory of the churches,
		and the beauty of the liturgy.)

	Part of the agreement of the conversion was that Vlamidir would get
to marry the Emperor's sister (or other female relative - I can't remember.)
She was especially prized since she was born in the palace at Byzantium. (I
don't know why this was though.)

	Unfortunatly the Emperor in Byzantium did not appreciate the demands
that the Rus' church would be autonomous from the central church, and that
Vladimir wished to marry his sister/whatever. Hence he refused to send priests
to carry out the conversion. In retalliation, Vladimir attacked, and conquered
the Crimea, and captured a number of priests to do the conversion for him...:)
He then ransomed it back to the Byzantines so that his demands were carried
out. Eventually the Rus managed to get converted, and he was canonized many
years after his death. (Russia's first saints were Boris and Gleb - Vladimir
wasn't promoted for so long because he had annoyed the Byzantines so much with
the above...)

		Graeme

From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Nifty Book...
Date: 22 Mar 1994 00:21:17 GMT
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings....
	While digging for yet more books on Medieval Russia, I found
the following:
	_The Archaeology of Novgorod, Russia_, Mark Brisbane, ed.
(Society for Medieval Archaeology monograph series #13. Lincoln:
Soceity for Medieval Archaeology, 1992. ISSN 0583-9106)
	For those of you who have seen M. Thompson's _Novgorod the Great_,
this is sort of the sequel--it's an update of the dig in general, including
stuff that's been found in the nearly 30 years since the publication
of _Novgorod the Great_.  Great drawings of all kinds of *stuff*, including
combs, shoes, keys and locks, weapons, jewellery, house foundations,
musical instruments, etc. etc. Novgorod is an extremely damp site
(they built log houses rather than dug-out houses like in Kiev because of
this), so wooden objects have been preserved reallly well.

Have fun....

Nicolaa/Susan
(who's feeling very Russian since the heralds in the fencing tourney
at Ice dragon kept calling me "Nicolai")
Canton of Eoforwic
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: etchman at shell.portal.com (Philip - Tuley)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: russian info
Date: 30 Jun 1994 18:31:16 GMT
Organization: Portal Communications Company

Susan Rachel (Susan.Rachel at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org) wrote:
: I'd like to apologize to everyone who has patiently awaited the arrival of
:  this biliography.  I really hope that you all find it worth the wait!
: These are the books that we own.  Consult the bibliographies in them and you
:  should have a HUGE overall bibliography to choose from.  Enjoy!!

: Kazimir Petrovich Pomeshanov
: mka Brent Rachel

: (and his lovely assistant on keyboards this evening, Cathlin mka Susan
: Rachel)
: ---------
: Fidonet:  Susan Rachel 1:387/555
: Internet: Susan.Rachel at f555.n387.z1.fidonet.org

Hello to the tallest damn Russian I ever met and his most lovely lady!
Being *somewhat* interested in the subject, but not from the Russian
standpoint but rather the Zhaprozian Cossack view, I'd like to suggest one
more book.
The Cossacks, By Philip Longworth, Holt, Rhinehart & Winston, 1969, 
LCC# 75-80353.
This book gives some insight into the early cossacks (late 15th and 16th
centuries) and then goes on into the rest of Cossackdom history. The only
down side for me is that it doesn't focus enough on Zhaprozian cossacks.
(In fairness, it splits pretty even with the Don cossacks, but I'd rather
it included more about my particular area.) 

There are other sources, I'll try to post them later.
Aleksandr Ivanovich
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Philip J. Tuley | Lord Aleksandr Ivanovich | "... and the angels had    |
| etchman at shell.  | Budischev, Wandering     |  guitars even before they  |
| portal.com      | Cossack of Clann O Choda |  had wings."               |

From: nataliae at aol.com (Natalia E)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Orthodox Saint Info
Date: 11 Dec 1994 22:30:37 -0500

In article <040_9412080500 at wmeonlin.sacbbx.com>,
Rob.Sturtevant at dt_wongy.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Rob Sturtevant) writes:

Welcome Sasha:

There are many Russians running around in the East. You can read the
Domostroy written by Sylvester which might help you.  It is a household
guide to Russian families in the late 1500s.  I don't know enough about
Russian culture as far as celebrating saint's days but I have asked my
brother (also Sasha) to look into it.  He might email you directly.  Good
luck and welcome to the Rialto.

Nataliia Anastasiia Evgenova Svyatoslavin

From: pyotr at chinook.halcyon.com (Peter D. Hampe)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Orthodox Saint Info
Date: 12 Dec 1994 21:10:52 GMT
Organization: Northwest Nexus Inc.

Greetings to all, from Nikolai Petrovich Flandrovov

On the subject of Russian celebrating birthdays vs name day
Sasha Ivanovitch Kalitin writes:

:        I am fairly new to the society, but have sort of jumped in with both
:feet.  After 7 months I've already done garb for others (fairly simple), and am
:trying to organize a demo for a local school.  I am having trouble with a few
:areas however...
:        I'm the only Russian I know of in my local group, and you can believe
:me, I have asked around!  What I write you all about is this:  I have read, in
:a book on Russian food & culture, that the Russians of at least the 19th
:century were more likely to celebrate their "Name day" than a birthday. 
:Apparantly this is like a birthday, but on the day of the Saint whose name you
:bear.

More likely - you were named for the saint on whose name-day you were
born.  ie Dezember sixth is St Nicolas day - you got tagged with
Nikolas.
	On the other hand - you might be named after someone "important"
- your uncle, grandfather, mother's brother's wifes's second cousin (the
one with all the money/land, ya know?).
	Naming conventions depend on time place and personal whim.  (I
know someone who's mom changed the 'a' to an 'o' and Sandra became
Sondra ... which is not all that uncommon a name...)
:        What I would like to know is, was this practiced in period (For me
:mid-16th Cent.)?  Where can I get a book or books that will tell me more about
:this (or any other) customs in period?  And where can I find out what day mine
:would be one? (I'm looking for Aleksandr, or Alexander)
:        As I write this I suppose I could ask an Eastern Orthodox priest..  I
:should think of these things sooner!  Though I suppose I have an excuse, having
:been raised Protestant..  ;)

May be yes, may be no.
:        Many thanks in advance, and to all a pleasant Season!
: 
:                        Sasha Ivanovitch Kalitin
--
pyotr at halcyon.com  Pyotr Filipivich, sometimes Owl.

From: Valdez at polisci.sscnet.ucla.EDU 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Pagan Lithuanians
Date: 13 Mar 1995 16:46:03 -0500

Greetings!

The pagan discussion picqued my curiosity -- We're doing a course on Russian 
History and Culture this quarter, and I have run across a number of 
references to the conversion of the Lithuanians to Christianity.  Of course, 
The Russians themselves didn't adopt Christianity officially until 988, and 
one could make an argument that it took quite a long time to filter down to 
the common people out in the boonies (as opposed to Kiev and mojor cities; 
see Andrei Tarkovsky's _Andrei Rublev_, which has some interesting allusions 
to pagan practices if you know what to look for. My lady does.) 

More to the point -- The textbook we're using for this course (MacKenzie and 
Curran, _A History of Russia, the Soviet Union and Beyond_) suggests that 
Lithuania's conversion was a process stretching from the early to mid-13th 
century to the early 15th.  The Teutonic Knights, of course, were on a 
mission to convert Baltic Pagans by the early 13th century; King Mindaugas 
and his family converted, and Mindaugas received "a crown from the pope in 
Rome" in 1253 (p. 104).  Lithuanian unification was completed in the third 
quarter of the 13th c., under Traidenis;curiously, this period saw a pagan 
"revival" which evidently antagonized matny of the Orthodox Russians 
(Slavs) under Lithuanian control.  To make a long story short, Lithuania drew 
closer to Poland, as a result of continuing pressure from the Teutonic 
Knights by the late 14th century.  Many lithuanuian nobles remained pagan, 
but began to convert especially after the 1385 Union of Krewo (with Poland): 
converts to Catholicism "obtained all the privileges of the Polish nobility." 
(p. 105).  Of course, for the life of me I can't find what is commonly taken 
to be the exact date of conversion, but you get the picture.

Hope this helps -- there is a good, sound basis to be a pagan noble of the 
Lithuanian-Russian variety through at least the end of the 14th c.

Iban de Sepulveda

From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia...
Date: 26 Sep 1995 04:19:00 GMT

Cornell University Press recently published a translation of the
Domostroi. It is a Russian household manual--how to run a household, with
lots of stuff on food, wedding ceremonies, etc. The original text is
apparently 16th century, with some later additions.

David/Cariadoc
-- 
ddfr at best.com

From: mholl at aol.com (MHoll)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia...
Date: 26 Sep 1995 12:23:08 -0400

Greetings!
Sashka (Lillith Kylan Lerien) Wrote:

 >Yeah, I'm pretty much a newbie... I've been kinda bluffing my way 
>through my first few events, but I'm interested in creating a persona 
>that is actually period... so I'm looking for some literature (preferably

>not huge tomes... I'm a college student, already busy) with some general 
>information on Russian (well, more specifically, southwestern russia, 
>nearish to modern Georgia, mountains, nearish the sea) garb, names, 
>customs, etc, the usual stuff... I am also interested in explanations of 
>marriage by proxy... 

 There is a good one-volume history book that will give you an outline of
Russian history. It's called something like _History of Russia_ (Duh! :) )
and it is by Paul Dukes. Then you can go on to the multi-volume work by
George Vernadsky (about the same title). Each of Vernadsky's volumes can
be read separately, so you can concentrate on your period until you have
more leisure to study all of it.
   As far as garb is concerned, I am not aware of any work in English. You
may want to move to Novgorod, biased advice here, although there really is
a more on that northern city than on most other places because of
extensive archeological digs done there.
   
Predslava Vydrina
Bjornsborg, Ansteorra

From: blktauna at netaxs.com (Donna Bowers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Newbie wanting literature on period Russia...
Date: 30 Sep 1995 20:53:42 GMT
Organization: Philadelphia's Complete Internet Provider

Sashka;

Try some of these:
W.E.D. Allen   History of the Georgian People
D.M. Lang     The Georgians
Colin Thubron  Among the Russians
Shota Rustaveli The Knight in the Panther's skin

That should get you on track..
Tauna
--
blktauna at netaxs.com
http://www.netaxs.com/~blktauna

From: Robert Lightfoot <celtcat at gnatnet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus
Date: 17 Oct 1996 01:43:57 GMT

Natal'ia asks:

>I am looking for sorces for 13th and 14th century Rus (Russian) garb.  
>It seems that all the books I have been trying to find are now out of 
>print.  Please help a new member.  Thanks

My husband and I have some suggestions for you.
Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei 
Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't have 
changed much.
Books: Mary Gostlow, Embroidery of all Russia, Charles Scribner's SOns, 
NY, 1977.ISBN 0-684-151847
Walter A. Fairservis, Jr. Costumes of the East.The Chatham Press, 1971 
ISBN:85699-029-0 (hard)// 85699-029-9 (paper)
The Scared Art of Russia from Ivan the Terrible to Peter the Great. 
Porgraom book from the Georgia cultural exchange (display held in ATlanta 
last year) ISBN:09646394-0-8 (paper)//09646394-1-6(hard). 

Good luck
Lady Siobhan ni Ahearn & Ld. Ernst
> Natalie Jean Boyer <nboiar at pacbell.net>

From: jswanger at u.washington.edu ('Jherek' W. Swanger)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!!
Date: 19 Oct 1996 00:00:12 GMT
Organization: University of Washington, Seattle

>Greetings to all from Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi,

>I'm trying to find information for him, especially in regards to armor
>(12th-15th cent).  Actually, all kinds of resources will be helpful;
>armor, garb, period customs, etc.

This may be a bit after the period he's interested in but...

The Domostroi : rules for Russian households in the time of 
Ivan the Terrible / edited and translated by Carolyn Johnston 
Pouncy. --  Ithaca, NY : Cornell University Press, 1994.

Also check the following subject headings at your local library:

Russia--Social life and customs
Russia--History

kirsti
(not jherek)

From: donata at ix.netcom.com(Dawn D Malmstrom)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus
Date: 17 Oct 1996 05:27:21 GMT

In <54430t$11b at bill.gnatnet.net> Robert Lightfoot <celtcat at gnatnet.net>
writes: 

>My husband and I have some suggestions for you.
>Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei 
>Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't  
>have changed much.

Please, oh please _don't_ use a movie as documentation!  For one thing,
Ivan was not Czar until 1547 and the movie is 20th century.  There is a
web page for Slavic Interests at 
    
    http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html 

and I know of a Laurel who is currently translating a Ukranian
costuming book of which I have a partial copy, but she does not have
email.  If you are interested, please email me and I will send it on to
her.

In Service,
Donata

From: lobel at is.nyu.edu (Sheldon Lobel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus
Date: 17 Oct 1996 17:04:21 GMT
Organization: New York University

Dawn D Malmstrom (donata at ix.netcom.com) wrote:

: Please, oh please _don't_ use a movie as documentation!  For one thing,
: Ivan was not Czar until 1547 and the movie is 20th century.  There is a

However, a Russian movie generally tends to be a much better source than
an American one (for all that's worth).

If you look at the credits, they often have 3 or 4 PhD's listed as
"historical consultants" and maybe one name as "costuming designer".

Naum Khazarin

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!!
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 23:03:48 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

Shire2308 wrote:
> 
> Greetings to all from Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi,
> 
> I have brought into our shire a newbie (a good friend who has finally
> decided to give it a shot) who is Russian.  I mean....he's really from
> RUSSIA, not just his persona.
> 
> I'm trying to find information for him, especially in regards to armor
> (12th-15th cent).  Actually, all kinds of resources will be helpful;
> armor, garb, period customs, etc.
> 
> At his request, send any email to him, Egor, at egorp at aol.com.
> 
> Armando Rafael D'Euzkadi
> Kingdom of the East
> Royal Forest of Rusted Woodlands

To this person and any other:

Make your way to the Slavic Interest Group Web Page at:
http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

Lots of stuff there, especially a really nice bibliography.

Predslava Vydrina

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for garb from 13th 14th cent Rus
Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 22:59:36 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

Robert Lightfoot wrote:
> 
> My husband and I have some suggestions for you.

I apologize as I will criticise most of what you suggest. In my 
defense: I have been studying Russian costume for several years now, I 
am mundanely a doctoral candidate in Russian studies, and I read 
Russian.

> Videos: Alexander Nevsky and Ivan the Terrible part 1 & 2, and Andrei
> Rubliev. Some may be a little later in period but the fashions won't have
> changed much.

I haven't seen "Aleksandr Nevskii" in quite a while, so I won't say 
anything. "Ivan the Terrible" is only "just about," and "Andrei 
Rublev" SHOULD not be considered a historical movie AT ALL, even by 
its own director's words! Very little in it is actually historical, 
from the characters' behavior to the clothes they wear. A lot of it is 
"generic poor oppressed peasant". 

> Books: Mary Gostlow, Embroidery of all Russia, Charles Scribner's SOns,
> NY, 1977.ISBN 0-684-151847
> Walter A. Fairservis, Jr. Costumes of the East.The Chatham Press, 1971
> ISBN:85699-029-0 (hard)// 85699-029-9 (paper)

There is almost nothing in this book that is period. Do not use it 
without a background study of Russian costume.

> The Scared Art of Russia from Ivan the Terrible to Peter the Great.
> Porgraom book from the Georgia cultural exchange (display held in ATlanta
> last year) ISBN:09646394-0-8 (paper)//09646394-1-6(hard).

Sacred art can be a good source if you know what you are looking for. 
A lot of the clothing is stylized and follows the ritual demands of 
icon painting, but some icons depict ordinary people in actual period 
clothing.

But do turn to the Slavic Interest Group web page at 
http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

There is an annotated bibliography there aimed at people who do not 
read Russian.

Feel free to e-mail me if you would like some more help.

Predslava Vydrina
(a lurking Russian persona who just had to emerge)

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Russian Stuff!!
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:58:01 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

'Jherek' W. Swanger wrote:
> This may be a bit after the period he's interested in but...
> 
> The Domostroi : rules for Russian households in the time of
> Ivan the Terrible / edited and translated by Carolyn Johnston
> Pouncy. --  Ithaca, NY : Cornell University Press, 1994.
> 
> kirsti
> (not jherek)

Yes! Pouncy's translation of the Domostroi is excellent, but note that 
it is a late-period book about late-period manners and traditions.

Predslava Vydrina

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Does anyone know Russian?
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:25:17 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

Dick Eney wrote:
> Zofia Beloshchenko wrote:
> > ... Arval has a good point though.  You might want
> > to consider Russian naming standards.  I have found that towns and cities
> > had a more meaningful name.
> 
> Somewhere I forget, I read that quite a few small Russian villages were
> named things like "Naked" or (sort of) "Disgusting Mess" because they were
> named by the local noble who owned the land, who gave them the name they
> thought fit the conditions without regard to the opinions of the peasants.
> This may have been the result of deep poverty in the 19th century, but it
> may have been period practice too.  If so, then "Middle of Nowhere" seems
> mild by comparison.
> 
> Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net)

Something like that may have happened. But places are usually named by 
those who found them/live there. 
Paul Wickended of Thanet, in his _Dictionary of Period Russian Names_ 
has a section on place names. A nice appendix, worth looking at.

Predslava Vydrina
Barony of Bjornsborg
Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Some assistance?
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 22:19:11 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

Valerie Rose wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
>    I need some assistance with some research, and I thought it would be a
> good idea to ask here, since this newsgroup seems to have a lot of SCA
> members on it.
>    (snip...)
>    Then I had an idea......what about other areas of Europe? I asked him
> about Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, etc. They must have used T-tunics
> types clothes at some time or another, right? Plus, I get cold a lot, and
> dressing in outfits from one of those countries would allow me to bundle
> up and still be in persona!:) And hubby dear said he'd at least look at
> the stuff.....if I did all the reasearch, of course.
>    However, my local library has book that say two or three sentances
> about Russian....and then goes straight into the Tsars! And Romania or
> Hungary? Almost nothing on names, so far....though I'm still looking.
> Nothing on the middle ages in those countries, or on clothes. Almost
> nothing at all.
>   (snip again)
> 
> Aibgrene Rose
> (AKA VAlerie Rose)

Look at the bibliography at the Slavic Interest Group web site:

http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

There are references to books on Eastern European Middle Ages. It's largely 
Russian stuff, but not exclusively. And according to my research, pre-XIII 
century Russian costume was pretty much T-tunic-like with more tunics and 
cloaks for cold weather. Fur lined, too. Just add an appropriate hat, and 
that's it. 

Predslava Vydrina
Barony of Bjornsborg
Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: BHoll <bholl at cs.trinity.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Some assistance?
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:23:48 -0500
Organization: Trinity University

I have missed the original post, but if you are interested in Russia and 
Central/Eastern Europe, then go to the Slavic Interest Group web page:

http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

There is a great bibliography there and other good stuff.

If you cannot get to that web page, then write to me at

MHoll at aol.com

and I'll be happy to help.

The most current and accurate name-book of Russian names can be found at 
the SCA web site at: http://www.sca.org/

in the Heraldry section.

Again, if you need more help, feel free to write to me (do not e-mail 
via this post).

Predslava Vydrina
Bjornsborg, Ansteorra

From: nayat at panix.com (nayat)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Tatar Yoke/Medieval Russia/Novgorod
Date: 24 Mar 1997 15:43:37 -0500
Organization: Panix

Corun MacAnndra <corun at access5.digex.net> wrote:
>
>Hmmm, I don't really know much about a Mongol merchant class. I'm sure the
>Mongols traded back and forth, but whether there was a specific class that
>ran caravans or lived in places far removed from their tribes or the places
>the Mongols subjugated is a question I can't answer. I would think, however,
>that if Novogrod had not been subjugated by the Mongols, it would have become
>a haven for those Russians escaping the Mongols, and therefor I would guess
>that Mongols in general would have been very unwelcome to the point that any
>might have been jailed or even killed out of hand. The Rus have never liked
>conquerors, and the Mongols were pretty ruthless.
>
>In service,
>Corun

To say that the Rus didn't like being conquored by the Mongols is an
understatement.  They went so far as to deny it in their chronicles, while
still preserving their history.  I would point anyone interested in the
topic to Charles J. Halperin's book _Russia and the Golden Horde: The
Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History_ published by Indiana Press.

As to Mongol Merchants I would point out that the reason Chinggis khan
turned west was to punish the Shah of Khurasan for killing Mongol
Merchants.  Of course he thought they were spys, but the Great Khan taught
him.

Umbar in Hashiral Daudachi, Beis

Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:31:51 -0600
From: Mary Amanda Fairchild <mafair at sisna.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Russian question

fiondel at i1.net wrote:
> Gentles of the arts list, a question,
> 
> I am currently trying to find references for Russian garb (embroidered,
> if possible) from approximately 1350.  Ukrain area. This would be for
> Russian nobility/hetman type garb, not peasantry.  The "Russian" in
> question has one of those "funny hats."  <grin>  I went to our local
> library today and drew almost a complete blank.
> 
> Books?  Web Sites?  Archive Sites?  Please, HELP!
> 
> Fiondel All-Set-Up-and-Nothing-To-Sew

Dear Lady,
I took 2 classes at Pennsic about Russian garb-basic and ornamented-that
were helpful and informative.  I'll be as brief as possible:
1. start with a white(ish) longsleeved (fitted cuff) slit down the
center (for women, for men it's the side cut)about 6 inches with or
without collar double trimmed with something there and single trimmed on
cuff and floor hem slip (or shirt for men)
2.  make a full skirt, preferably red, trim
3. the top or vest or overshirt is full or pleated in the back, tucked
or pleated at the waist.  
4. hats range from jeweled crown-like bands to fur hats to scarves
5. coats are fur lined and often have mongolian side-cut influence
6. boots are red (good luck finding those) and sturdy
7. and PEARLS PEARLS PEARLS everywhere and anywhere.

That's the basics but if you want or need more please contact me.  Also,
the teacher brought in a cute (and accurate) model---Russian Barbie!

have fun! 
Mary Amanda

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:31:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Russian question

>I am currently trying to find references for Russian garb (embroidered,
>if possible) from approximately 1350.  Ukrain area.

There is a book set called the "Kiev Psalter" which has marginalia showing
people and their clothes.  You might try to see if interlibrary loan can lay
hands on it for you.  It was a very expensive boxed set ($125 on
out-of-print discount!) and one of the few original sources I have ever seen.

Another out of print book is the "Costume Timeline".  It had some Russian
examples at various time periods.  Author: Muller; publisher: Thames & Hudson.

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: sclark at chass.utoronto.ca (Susan Carroll-Clark)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Russian question

Best book I know of in English is _History of Ukrainian Costume_ by Yuri
Tkach.  Very good text and large colour plates, and it does cover the
period you want.

Cheers--
Nicolaa de Bracton
sclark at chass.utoronto.ca

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:24:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Russian question

More information about Russian and Slavic topics, including an extensive
bibliography and a list of contacts, can be found on the web page of the
Slavic Interest Group (an unofficial SCA group):
	http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschmidt/slavic.html

There is a review of a book on Russian garb making in one of the
newsletters, at: 	http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~millerje/news04.html

There's an article on pearling in another issue:
	http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~millerje/news05.html

Etc.

Jennifer Heise	**	Aunt Bunny	** Jadwiga  Zajaczkowa
jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 00:40:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: fiondel at i1.net
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Russian question

>I don't have the exact web site available at this time, but if you were to
>go to 
>http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/arts_and_sciences.html   you will find a link
>so some nice costuming sites and a couple on the Slavic races. 

Thank you so much for this reference.  It pointed me to *exactly* what I
needed.  In case anyone else is interested, one of the "books" on this
site is actually a portfolio of photographs.  Seems that in 1903 the 
Russian Imperial Family had a ball at the Winter Palace, and they and
all their guests wore vintage clothing from the 14th to the 18th century.
A little over half of the pictures are of garb which is OOP, but the 
rest are ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS of 14-17th century clothing.  Not reproductions
but the genuine articles.  Just too cool for words.

The portfolio is called "Historical Russian Costumes", by H. C. Pereleberg.
No ISBN number, sorry.  Not even a publication date.  

The one I'm looking at is 14th century.  All pearls, embroidery/applique,
and furs.  Can't wait to get started.

Fiondel

Date: Fri, 23 Oct 1998 11:30:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: russian garb

On Fri, 23 Oct 1998, rmhowe wrote:
> Not where I'm concerned. If you know more than I, or older historians,
> I have no trouble with it. I was just citing what I had read/heard
> for years, and trying to be helpful. I've tried to buy some stuff
> on Novgorad (archaeological findings) but seemed to be a bit late.
> Don't read russian, but have read the information about some of the
> excavations, magazine articles mostly.

I'm currently slogging through Pavel M. Dolukhanov's _The Early Slavs:
Eastern Europe from the Initial Settlement to the Kievan Rus_ (yes,
Predslava, I'll be posting about it  to the SIG list as soon as I've
gotten past the glaciation stuff!). It is written by a geologist who was
part of the archaelogy teams that did a number of the excavations, and
the book is primarily based on the archaelogical record. I'm still working
through the glaciation part, on which I can't comment too much, though
when Kat'ryna Neblaga Volchkova borrows it from me I'm sure she'll be able
to critique it!

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise
jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Mon, 26 Oct 1998 23:42:09 EST
From: <MHoll at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: russian garb

In a message dated 10/23/98 3:17:38 AM, Magnus wrote:
>.... I've tried to buy some stuff
>on Novgorad (archaeological findings) but seemed to be a bit late.
>Don't read russian, but have read the information about some of the
>excavations, magazine articles mostly.

That's my advantage -- I do read Russian. Some info on the subject is
available in English: see Brisbane... Don't have the full citation at
hand...
It's a bit dull to read, but Brisbane recaps a lot of the research on
Novgorod, mostly as translations of Russian articles. Another source is H.
Birnbaum, I think the book is _Novgorod the Great_. It's not leisure reading
material, and some of the data is regurgitated without critical examination,
and I find fault with some of what he says (especially when he repeats Soviet
ideology without comments), but it's useful nevertheless. Both books are in
the SIG bibliography, I think.

Predslava.

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 11:43:26 -0500
From: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Mongols at Peipus

MHoll at aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/23/98 3:33:30 AM, Magnus wrote:
>
> >And the battle on the ice is still thrilling. I believe it
> >leaves out the Mongol Allies however.
>
> Er... Esteemed Horde member... there were no Mongol allies at the Ice
> Massacre. The attacks of the Mongols were still too recent and bloody
> to allow for any alliances.

  Ummm. Not according to Lake Peipus 1242 by David Nichole PhD.
He refers to them as Turco-Mongol warriors of steppe origin.
He states:
"The size of of the vital Turco-Mongol contingent of horse archers
is unknown, as is their precise identity, but is unlikely to have
exceeded a few hundred."
  He identifies these as people who inhabited both sides of the northern
Ural mountains. "Those of the west, also known as the Khantz, had
been incorporated into Novgorad's 'fur empire'..."
He also states that if they were _mongols_ they were likely brought
up from the south by Alexander's brother.

Apparently, according to Nichole, quite a number of different
tribal peoples made up the army. He cites quite a few. Sounded
like quite a melting pot.

Surprised the heck out of me too when I read it the first time.
I am aware of the Mongol invasion of that area previously.

"David Nichole PhD was born in 1944 and was educated at Highgate
School. For eight years he worked in the BBC Arabic Service. In
1971 he went "back to school" gaining an MA from the School of
Oriental Studies and a PhD from Edinburgh University. For some
years he taught world and Islamic art and architectural history at
Yarmuk University, Jordan. David has written a number of books for
Osprey, including Campaign 43 Fornovo 1495." He cites about 40
books in his bibliography.

According to the chronology the Mongols were fighting the same people
he was. In 1241 Mongols defeated the Poles and Germans at Leignitz.
In 1242 Alexandre took Pskov back and won at Peipus against the same.
in 1246 Alexandre submits to the Mongol Khan Batu. In 1252 he becomes
the Veliki Knez (Grand Prince) of Russia under Mongol overlordship.
Not meaning to say he liked it - it just happened. In the middle of
this there were apparently all sorts of peoples being pushed about
on the outskirts of the main combatants, some of whom evidently
figured it was in their best interest to take sides.

> Predslava.

Magnus

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:04:53 EST
From: <MHoll at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re:  Mongols at Peipus

In a message dated 10/27/98 10:42:37 AM, Magnus wrote:
>In the middle of
>this there were apparently all sorts of peoples being pushed about
>on the outskirts of the main combatants, some of whom evidently
>figured it was in their best interest to take sides.

I'm sure there were. And I'm sure there were non-Russians in Alexander's
contingent -- but I haven't read any references to non-Russian *units*.
Individuals -- that's a different story. For more, see John Fennell, _The
Crisis of Medieval Russia, 1200-1304_, Longman, London and New York, 1983.
Or
Janet Martin, _Medieval Russia, 980-1584_, Cambridge University Press, New
York, 1995.

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 00:11:39 EST
From: <MHoll at aol.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Vikings in Russia  (was: Re: russian garb)

The clearest statement, as well as the most succint that I have found belongs
to Nicholas V. Riazanovsky, then professor of history at Columbia (if I am not
mistaken), in _A History of Russia_, second edition, Oxford University Press,
New York, 1969, p. 26:

"Detailed investigations of Scandinavian elements in Russian culture serve to
emphasize their relative insignificance. Norman words in the Russian language,
formerly supposed to be numerous, number actually only six or seven. (...)
Written literature in Kiev preceded written literature in Scandinavia...
(...)
Claims of Norman contributions to Russian law have suffered a fiasco: while at
one time scholars believed in the Scandinavian foundation of Russian
jurisprudence, it has in fact proved impossible to trace elements of Kievan
law back to Norman prototypes. (...) Other assertions of Norman cultural
influences, for instance, on the organization of the Kievan court or on
Russian dress, tend to be vague and inconclusive, especially when compared to
the massive impact of Byzantium and the tangible effects of some Oriental
cultures on Russia."

Riazanovsky goes on to question other finding connecting the "Rus" with a
Scandinavian group. The main problem being that no group by that name can be
found in Scandinavia of that time. Moreover, the Russian Chronicle "states
that the Slavic and the Russian languages are one" (Riazanovsky p. 28).

Some texts contrast the Rus with the Slavs, but this may be a contrast between
the Kievan Rus and other Slavs. Kievan Rus is often referred to as "Rus" as
opposed, say, to the Novgorod Slavs even in much later Chronicle entries.

Finally, Riazanovsky concludes on this subject:

"In particular the names of the first princes, to and excluding Sviatoslav, as
well as the names of many of their followers in the treaties with Byzantium,
make the majority of scholars outside the Soviet Union today consider the
first Russian dynasty and its immediate retinue as Scandinavian. Yet, even if
we accept this view, it remains dangerous to postulate grand Norman designs
for eastern Europe, or to interpret the role of Vikings on the Russian plain
by analogy with their much better known activities in Normandy or in Sicily. A
historian can go beyond his evidence only at his own peril." (p. 30).

So there is no clear evidence that the Rus' were Scandinavian at all, or any
positive proof that the Rurikid dynasty was of Norse origin, although that is
the accepted theory.  The cultural distinction between the (probably) Norse
rulers and the Slavic population disappeared very early on, probably before
the IX century when names that were almost clearly Norse ceased to be used.
Certainly there is no reference in the Chronicles to any linguistic problems
between the Rurikid princes and the population. Or any kind of cultural
tension between the two groups, only expected political opposition between
powerful and wealthy groups, the landowners on the one side, and the
military leaders and administrators on the other.

A point to remember is that the "Normans" referred to in Russian history are
not the same Normans of English history. It was just a term used
interchangeably with "Norse," "Viking" and "Scandinavian" -- a vague term
rather than a specific one.

Predslava

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:29:46 EST
From: froggestow at juno.com (Roberta R Comstock)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Pre-Seventeenth Cent. Slavic Sources

On Mon, 9 Nov 1998 08:46:54 -0800 (PST) Beth Ann Snead
<ladypeyton at yahoo.com> writes:
>Help!  I need a pre-seventeenth century slavic motif for an arts
>triathalon I'm entering in February.  I have NO idea where to look
>since my area of expertise is neither slavic nor needlework.  I'm
>hoping to find at least one blackwork pattern, (If not a pattern at
>least a picture to develope a pattern from.) and one generic
>embroidery pattern.  If possible, could someone point me in the >right
direction.

The two books I would suggest are:

_Embroidery of All Russia_ by Mary Gostelow, 1977.   New York: Charles
Scribner's Sons.  ISBN 0-684-15184-7  Although mostly modern, there are
some good examples of period embroideries.
There is also some reference to the wonderful felt applique work of the
5th century, BC.
Most of the counted stitch work shown is well past the SCA period of
interest.

_Russian Illuminated Manuscripts_ by Olga Popova, 1994, Aurora Arts
Publishers, Leningrad.  First published in USA 1984, Thames & Hudson,
Inc., NY.  ISBN 0-500-27310-3  Even though most of the color
illustrations (replicas of manuscript pages) are from religious
documents, there are a lot of wonderful border designs and other setaile
that could be easily converted to embroidery or applique patterns.

Also look for art history and coffee table books about treasures of the
Kremlin,  Scythian gold work, Dark Ages tribal migrations, end such.

Hertha

Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 23:17:55 -0500
From: "K. E. Reinhart" <keran at hancock.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Slavic Sources

Another book with good pictures of Slavic art & embroidery

Alpatov, M. W. & Olga Dacenko.  Art Treasures of Russia.
        New York: Harry N. Abrams, n. d.  LC# 67-12683

Keran Roslin
Sterlynge Vayle
AEthelmearc

Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 14:55:55 -0600
From: Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Replies to Centre, marmalde and russian recipe queries

Akim wrote regarding Russian cookbooks:

>Perhaps there are documents in the Novgorod-Seversky
>excavations that we may discover available,  I would bet that if 12th
>century recipes exist, it will be from those digs. My hunch is based on this
>reasoning.  Unlike their contemporaries in western Europe at this period, a
>majority of the citizens of Novgorod-Seversky were generally literate; not
>just the nobility or the church heirarchy, everyone.  Literacy  there was
>very comparable to modern America, perhaps even surpassing it.  They used
>the plentiful bark of the white birch tree, writing with a stylus as the
>bark surface darkened when compressed.  The soil acidity and low
>temperatures  of this city have preserved literally tons of notes and
>personal letters written on birchbark.  We have letters of mundane subjects
>like a husband asking his wife to send him his two best shirts and new
>underwear.  This hoard of preserved data is unique to this city-state of
>ancient Rus as conditions did not preserve similar data in more southerly
>cities like Kiev.   If "Mrs Ivanovich" wrote her recipes down, it is most
>likely that they still exist here.

Yes, the birchbark documents are a wonderful source for research and an
astounding archaeological find.  And of course, we don't know what is going
to appear in the future findings.  However, the birchbark documents were
not meant for permanent storage, they were for notes and messages, not
book-length subjects.  An entire cookbook is not likely for the subject of
a birchbark document, but a single recipe or some notes on food is
possible.  None have been found yet, but I too hope for some fragment of a
recipe reference.

>I have recently discovered a Russian national selling Russian subject books
>on Ebay who has sold me some absolutely wonderful resource texts on
>Novgorod.  She is Lyudmila Khononov, in Brooklyn NY.  Perhaps she could use
>her contacts in book-selling to see if in-period cookery books are now
>available.  Her address is Lkon5 at aol.com .  Her company name and Ebay
>sellers i.d. is"Russiantroyka".

You would probably be better off with Viktor Kamkin  (www.kamkin.com) or Russian
Panorama (www.panrus.com).  I have bought from RussianTroyka, but they are
a reseller and (last time I checked) would only sell to you if you bid on
eBay.  Not the way I like to do business, YMMV.  Kamkin is the respected
North American source for Russian books.  They get most everything and have
an incredible warehouse in Rockford MD.  However, no period cookbooks yet!  :)

- --Yana

Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 18:41:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - russian book vendors

- --- Jenn/Yana <jdmiller2 at students.wisc.edu> wrote:
> You would probably be better off with Viktor Kamkin
> (www.kamkin.com) or Russian Panorama (www.panrus.com).  I have bought from
> RussianTroyka, but they are a reseller and (last time I checked) would only 
> sell to you if you bid on eBay.  Not the way I like to do business, YMMV.
> Kamkin is the respected North American source for Russian books.  They get
> most everything and have an incredible warehouse in Rockford MD.  However, no
> period cookbooks yet!  :)
>
> --Yana

An even better Russian book vendor than Kamkin is:

East View Publications
3020 Harbor Lane North
Suite 110
Minneapolis, MN 55448
1-800-477-1005
e-mail: books at eastview.com
website: http://www.eastview.com

East View has offices in Russia and almost all of the
breakaway republics.  In my 15 years as an
acquisitions librarian, I have (and still do) dealt
with Kamkin, but I have found East View faster, more
e-mail responsive and better in finding obscure books
than Kamkin.  Kamkin is better in dealing with
subscriptions, in my opinion.

Huette

From: Lord Mikhial <sjclem1NOsjSPAM at hotmail.com.invalid>
Subject: Re: Russian Armor
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Fri, 26 May 2000 04:11:21 -0700

    I am Lord Mikhial Da'Mianovich, I'm currently living in the Kingdom
of Caid and have been doing this for two years.  Last summer I was
researching for Russian armor like yourself and have found two types
most commonly used.  First type is the chain mail which most people are
familiar with if there is an armorer in the area.  I chose to go a
different direction because it would provide a more personal look. 
Beginning in the 13th century, the Rus created an armor called "KUYAK"
it was basically a long shirt of hide leather with bronze plates
riveted throughout.  I'm leaving two site address, feel free to check
them out, the first is very detailed about Russian armor and weapons,
it has good pictures of the armor I mentioned.  The second one is of my
homepage, but my photographer wasn't the best and my pics are a little
dark so you may not be able to see how I did it.

http://members.aol.com/johns426/partII.htm#Kuyak

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Loft/9623/SCA.html

From: slh1500 at aol.com (SLH1500)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NewComers Handbooks Ideas/Comments/Help
Date: 02 Jun 2000 06:53:02 GMT

These are my favorites, particularly the last two. sasha

http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/knowledge/clothing.html
http://www.costumes.org/pages/russcostlinks.htm
http://vms.www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
http://www.sit.wisc.edu/~jdmiller2/tiart.html
http://www.huscarl.com/costume/text/russiandoc.htm
http://members.aol.com/Predslava/GiliarovskaiaPatterns.html#General
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/rubakha.html
http://www.thekeep.net/avelina/costume/catalog1.htm
http://www.sovietski.com/
http://www.importsrussia.com/anna.html
http://www.costumes.org/pages/1903ball.htm

From: val_org at hotmail.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Persona research (Kiev/Rus/Scandinavia?) help REALLY wanted. :-)
Date: 16 Jul 2001 09:33:46 -0700

NomadNStarkhafnNOSPAM at aol.com (Nomad in Starkhafn) wrote
> Okay, this is what I've got so far... Trader born in the year 950 AD,
> born in Kiev, parents were Scandinavian traders. I have some basic
> garb so far. I'd REALLY appreciate URLs and possibly book titles I
> could borrow from the library. 

Also take a look at:

The real Risala of Ibn Fadlan
http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/ibn_fdln.htm

An intro to Vikings in Russia and Byzantium
http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/varangians.htm

Several websites of the New Varangian Guard reenactment group:
U.S. NVG
http://web.missouri.edu/~tm104/Varangian

Australia NVG
http://www.geocities.com/svenskildbiter/NVGInc/index.html

Holthoer, R. Birch-Bark Documents from Novgorod Relating to Finland
and Scandinavia. Acta Universitatis Uppsaliensis 19. Uppsala:
University of Uppsala. 1981.

Lindquist, Sven-Olaf, ed. Society and Trade in the Baltic During the
Viking Age. Acta Visbyensia 7. Visby: Gotlands fornsal. 1985.

Muller-Wille, Michael, ed. Oldenburg-Wolin-Staraja
Ladoga-Novgorod-Kiev: Handel und Handelsrerbindungen im sudlichen und
ostlichen Ostseraum wahrend des fruhen Mittelalters. Bericht RGK 69.
1988.

Noonan, Thomas S. "The Vikings and Russia: Some New Directions and
Approaches to an Old Problem." in Social Approaches to Viking Studies.
ed. Ross Samson. Glasgow: Cruithne Press, 1991. pp. 201-206. to buy
from Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873448007/thevikinganswerl

Palsson, Hermann and Paul Edwards. Vikings in Russia: Yngvar's Saga
and Eymund's Saga. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press. 1989.
To buy from Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0852246234/thevikinganswerl

Sawyer, Peter, Omelian Pritsak, Bengt E. Hoven, Thomas S. Noonan,
Talvio Tuukka, Jutta Waller and Anne Stalsburg. "Relations Between
Scandinavia and the Southeastern Baltic / Northeastern Russia in the
Viking Age." Journal of Baltic Studies 13:3 (1982) pp. 175-295.

There are a ton of journal articles out there, in English, Finnish,
and Russian, which deal with the early Rus and Scandinavians in
Russia.  I'd start with the ones above and mine thir bibliographies
for more leads.

::GUNNORA::

Subject: Re: [MR] Help with Russian persona - with heavy Mongol
overtones ;)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 11:22:37 -0400
From: rmhowe <MMagnusM at bellsouth.net>
To: Atlantia <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Larissa Simmons wrote:
>   I am in need of help in completing the development of my Russian persona.
> I am satisfied with my first name, but need a second name. 
> My persona is circa 1124 in Kiev and has ties both to the Kievan
> nobility and the Mongol horde (thus far, I may need help tweaking her
> history).

There are Russian and Mongol name guides on the internet and I'm sure 
the Academy of St. Gabriel knows of them. It's easier to use St. Gabriel
who think name puzzles are funny to argue over than to do it yourself 
frequently. I imagine you can reach them off of http://www.sca/org/ 
under Heraldry or Names.

> I also need to know where to look for pictures of armor post 
> Kievan Age Russia.  I am grateful for all help.
> In Service, - Iaroslavna

Scale and mail seems to have been popular at that period. So were
helmets of either spangenhelm or single raised conical helms with a
nasal and decorative brow and eyebrow decorations. Leather armour
was used by the mongols frequently over a loose silk shirt. This
had the advantage of not cutting like a normal cloth wood and easing
the withdrawal of an arrowhead. The loose silk threads also pulled
any corruption of the wound out. The best picture of a leather laminated
scale cuirass I know of is in the Eyewitness book on Russia.

As far as most armor pictures go they principally exist on pottery
or engraved and embossed articles. Osprey has a number of books on
the Mongols and Medieval Russian Armies in their various series.
In the Campaigns Series there is the Battle of the Kalka River.
Mongols and Rus even fought with each other briefly against the
Teutonic Knights and their allies. This is in one of the books that
Osprey puts out by Dr. David Nicolle. In the Osprey series alone
you should find 4 or so good books on the Mongols.  I have somewhere
around a hundred and ten of the things. Some of the Romano-Byzantine
armor wouldn't be too far off. It heavily influenced the Russians,
and the Mongols were fighting in that area as well.

Osprey Man at Arms    105 The Mongols         ISBN 0850453720  132282
Osprey Campaign Series 98 Kalka River 1223AD       1841762334  134187
Osprey Campaign Series 46 Lake Peipus 1242AD       1855325535  132104
Osprey MAA  333 Armies of Medieval Russia 750-1250 1855328488  132503 
Osprey MAA  251 Medieval Chinese Armies 1260-1520  1855322544
	During the first part of this era the Mongols ruled as
	the Yuan Dynasty. Their successors were overthrown by 
	Ming Dynasty. So, somewhat the same warriors.
Osprey MAA 295 Imperial Chinese Armies 590-1260 AD 1855325993
	The Mongols were a diverse group of Tribes until Genghis 
	Khan united and named them. The last part of this book
	is applicable.

Osprey MAA 287 Byzantine Armies 1118-1461 AD       1855323478
	Remember these folks were highly influencial on the 
	surrounding cultures, and there are a great many 
	depicted in period paintings and modern illustrations
	and photographs. This has a lot of Scale Armour and
	weaponry in it. The Vikings served them as the 
	Varangian Guard, and the way they got there was
	on the rivers passing through many areas north to 
	south. The Rus were a tribe of Scandinavians invited
	in to rule the early Russian slavs.

Osprey MAA 222 The Age of Tamerlane by David Nicolle PhD.
0850459494           
	Warfare in the Middle East 1350-1500 AD. A Turcified
	Mongol descendant and Conqueror. Probably a bit late
	for you, but might prove useful for the ethnicity.

National Geographic Vol. 190, No. 6, December 1996 issue on
	Ghenghis Khan and the beginning of the Mongol conquests.
	Written by Mike Edwards, Photographs by James. L. Stanfield. 
	Map Supplement with a mongol ger wagon train on the reverse.
	Pages 3-37. 

National Geographic Vol. 191, No. 2, February 1997 issue on
	Sons of Genghis - The Great Khans pages 2-35.
	Written by Mike Edwards, Photographs by James. L. Stanfield.
	This covers the subsequent expansion of the various 
	Mongol Khans taking the empire to its greatest extent.

Eighteen Songs of a Nomad Flute - the Story of Lady Wen-Chi, 1974,
	Metropolitan Museum of Art, 89 pages, 18 color(full-page), 
	73 black/white reproductions; text of poems on scroll by Liu
	Shang, 8th C.; paintings by unknown 12th C. artist. Introduction,
	commentary and translation of poems by Robert A. Rorex and 
	Wen Fong, Distributed by the New York Grapic Society, hardback 
	in slip case, about sixty unnumbered pages. Although Lady Wen 
	Chi was originally abducted in the second century AD by 
	predecessors of the later Huns who troubled Rome, her story 
	was retold over the centuries and reillustrated with new 
	pictures. The ones in this book relate her as if she were 
	living with the twelfth century Mongols and the illustrations
	of their Gers and wagons, processions, and daily life is the 
	most accurate for the Mongol period we have. Well worth obtaining.

A Former Horde Brother of mine who knew and researched Mongolian/
	Chinese Costumes quite a lot felt the best book on the
	subject is 5000 years of Chinese Costume if you can
	find and afford one.
 
Compleat Anachronist # 99 Life in Thirteenth Century Novgorod 
   by Gregory William Frux. Available through the SCA stock clerk. 
   
Compleat Anachronist #35 An Introduction to Russian Costume 
   by Soraya Evodia of Odessa, same stock clerk.

Compleat Anachronist # 54 The Mongols by Georg of Glacier's Edge
   Same stock clerk.  http://www.sca.org/ Membership services.

The Mongol Warlords - Genghis Khan - Kublai Khan - Hulegu - Tamerlane;
by David Nicolle, plates by Richard Hook, Brockhampton Press, London,
1998, Hardback, dj, 8to, 192 pages, with Black and White and Colour 
Illustrations and Photographs (a great many actually).   

Marco Polo, The Historic Adventure Based on the Television Spectacular;
Random House, New York, 1982, Based on the Italian/Chinese Movie
Production.  Storybook on the movie by Elizabeth Levy. Hardback
with color picture illustrations and colors. 62 pages. ISBN 0394853296.
If you -ever- get a chance to see the whole huge film don't miss it!

Also you might like to see the movie Alexander Nevsky. The 1939 film
was a propaganda film against the Germans, however it is primarily
based on Fact. It's generally in VHS somewhere. The battle on the Ice
at Lake Peipus is stunning at times. Try http://www.ccvideo.com/

Then you might wish to join the Slavic Interest Group, or SIG.
http://slavic.freeservers.com/  Which is composed of SCA members
who can aid you. I blind copied a few (might be old addresses but
you never know. You may get sucked in anyway.)

In any event, once you've made up your mind I am fairly sure we can 
arrange an abduction of yourself, at your request at Pennsic.
It's happened before. Then you'll have your story, and someone
may paint and write the poems of a long scroll for you.

Master Magnus Malleus, OL, Atlantia, Great Dark Horde
Khan's Own Intelligence Agency

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:47:43 -0400
From: "Stephanie Ross" <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] zakuskas
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<Huh? We have lots of medieval illustrations of peasants. I'm sure there
are numerous differences. Among others that I can think of is the 19th
century use of cotton. A rather expensive and rare fabric in
the Middle Ages.>>

No, no, Stefan, Russian peasants. You cannot compare Russian peasants to
medieval surf peasants. All peasant meant in Russia is that you are not of
noble blood. You could be very rich and successful and non-Christian and
still be of the peasant class. Peasant was a term that meant the common
people, what we call the middle class, the backbone of society.  Cotton is
not a fabric that was commonly used in Russia until about the 1940's by the
peasantry. They were still weaving linen for their shirts and using
homespun wool for skirts and pants. I have a friend from Ukraine who sells
on Ebay, and she told me that the material I want for my plahtas (a term
which means blanket now, was a skirt) and panovas (a type of wrap-around
three-panel skirt common from Rus times) is becoming increasingly
impossible to find, because it became quite uncommon after the Revolution.
However, I have some actual photographs of this material, but grandmothers
stopped weaving it decades ago when communism brought in cheap cotton
cloth. You see, even after Peotr and Catherine the Great managed to
westernize the Russian nobility in the 17 and 1800's, life for the peasant
didn't change. They went on living their quiet lives in their spread out
villages that only interacted once or twice a year. I'm serious when I say
that there are still villages in the backwoods of Russia who still have not
been modernized and still wear their "peasant costumes" as daily wear.
Russians don't like change, because change has brought death and
destruction for them so often in the past. They are also a very stubborn
people and cling to their ways. Frankly I was amazed at how many dishes in
the Domostroi were still common in Russia today. Kasha is still a staple,
as are blini, rye bread, schi (cabbage soup), pirogs and piroshki, smoked
and pickled fish, pickles, caviar, mushrooms (oh how the Russians love
their mushrooms. They still go out in the woods to find them today and
fight over them). I think the liberal use of sour cream is the biggest
change in food since the Domostroi was written. Of course I am talking
about what mom cooked at home (v domi), not what is sold to tourists in big
cities, like Chicken Kiev and Beef Stroganoff. There are actually dates of
creation for those dishes and nobody ever cooked them at home.

<<For a long time I remember being told that Middle Eastern food hadn't
changed since the Middle Ages. Counter-examples of this have been posted
here.>>

I wish I could get my hands on evidence of any history for Russian food,
either pro or con. So little is written in English it is impossible to find
reliable sources that don't cross-reference each other as sources.  This is
a problem when researching medieval Russian clothes as well. I am not
emotionally attached to my ideas, so if someone comes along and refutes
them with documentation, I would be thrilled just to finally KNOW!

~Aislinn~

Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:05:51 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] weird question - honey fast???
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Please enlighten me I cannot not figure how anyone one can fathom 
honey as a meat product.
Suey >>>

Ok I hit Google Books this evening and came across a couple of unusual 
documents buried in that vast archive of stuff.

From Senate Documents, Otherwise Publ. as Public Documents and Executive 
Documents: 14th Congress, 1st Session-48th Congress, 2nd Session and 
Special Session
By United States Congress. Senate
Published by , 1856
Original from Oxford University
Digitized Dec 7, 2006

  BEES, WAX, AND HONEY.

BEE-CULTURE IN RUSSIA.

The rearing of bees is extensively carried on in the several parts
of European Russia, particularly in the central and southern governments,
as well as in the Polish and in the trans-Caucasian provinces.
This insect acclimatises up to a very high latitude, even in Siberia.
It was long thought that the climate of the latter country
was utterly unsuitable for the rearing of bees ; but experiments made
at the commencement of the present century in the governments of
Tomsk, Omsk, and Jenisseisk have proved the contrary. It has
greatly suffered, however, in some provinces, from the destruction of
the forests; for the bee prefers well wooded districts, where it is 
protected from the wind. The honey procured from the linden tree (
Tilia eurapced) is only obtained at the little town of Kowno, on the
river Niemen, in Lithuania, which is surrounded by an extensive forest
of these trees, and where the rearing occupies the principal attention
of the inhabitants. The Jews of Poland furnish a close imitation
of this honey, by bleaching the common kinds in the open air
during frosty weather.

The ceremonies of the Greek church, requiring a large consumption
of wax candles, greatly favor this branch of rural economy in
Russia, and preserve it from the decline to which it is exposed in
other countries, from the increasing use of stearine, oil, gas, and other
fluids for illuminating purposes. The peasants produce wax so
cheaply that, notwithstanding the consumption of this article has
greatly diminished abroad, it still continues to form an important
item of the commerce of the country ; but the exportation of honey
has considerably increased in consequence of the extended use of potato
syrup, which has also injured the honey trade in the interior.
The rearing of bees is now almost exclusively dependent on the
manufacture of candles for religious ceremonies, and on the consumption
of honey during Lent, it being then used instead of sugar, by the
strict observers of the fasts. The government encourages this branch
of rural industry, as affording to the peasant an extra source of income,
and has adopted various measures for the accomplishment of
this end. With the view of diffusing the requisite knowledge among
the people of the public domains, bee-hives, and a course of practical
instruction upon the subject of bee-culture, have been established at
several of the crown farms, and pupils are sent every year, at the expense
of the government, to the special school in Tschernigow,
founded for the purpose, in 1828.

See also
Commentaries on the Productive Forces of Russia
By Ludwik Te;goborski
Published by Longman, Brown, Green and Longmans, 1855
Original from the University of Michigan
Digitized Aug 4, 2006

So here we have honey being used instead of sugar during Lent in the 19th century; perhaps this is just the Eastern Orthodox Church. An Egg At Easter mentions that prior to the Revolution, the Russians ate only vegetables, honey, fruit, and bread during Lent.  The Domostroi also indicates that they ate honey during Lent.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 09:09:05 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] More Russian Info...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Are you familiar with this site?

Virtual Russian Museum: http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/russia.html

Kiri

From: Coblaith Muimnech <Coblaith at sbcglobal.net>
Date: November 23, 2009 3:44:01 PM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] period Russian leather

I know there are a few people with Russian personae in the barony, and thought they might be interested in the photos of shoes, pouches, sheaths, cases, and masks from 10th- to 15th-century Novgorod at <http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/NovgorodLeatherp.html>.  Some of them show very interesting decoration, and could be used as the basis for striking accessories for wear at events.

Coblaith Muimnech

<the end>