tent-ps-msg – 10/30/16

Pavilion poles, stakes and ropes.

NOTE: See also the files: tent-making-msg, tent-sources-msg, pavilions-msg, tents-weather-msg, p-tents-art, p-tents-msg, tent-care-msg, tent-fabrics-msg, tent-interior-msg, yurts-msg, tent-painting-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Some messages in this file were submitted to me by others.
     E.B. - Elizabeth Braidwood, An Tir

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: Pavillions
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1993 18:40:27 GMT

Arval complained about not having a vehicle adapted for transporting
tent poles internally.

	I have designed my incipient tent to have poles that can be
broken down for transport in my car or are short enough that they don't
need to be broken down. 

	Really, the side poles of a pavillion only need to be about 5"
high. This has advantages other than transportability, the lower the
side poles, the less of a "sail" you have and the less likely wind is to
get UNDER the sides of the tent and turn the roof of the tent into an
airfoil. (This is a common problem with dining flies in windy areas,
like the serengetti at Pennsic.) Another advantage is that it makes it
easier to adjust/futz with the guy lines and side poles of the tent.

	Cariadoc has a very nice pavillion which has a frame that can
broken down into duffel bags. It stands about 5' high at the side (or a
bit less). Of course, his Grace is not greatly discomfited by having to
stoop to go through low doorways...:) :).

Lothar \|/ 
        0

From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: 23 Jul 1994 07:00:47 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana
 
  I now have a period tent.  My problem:  There is no possible way I can
  transport 15 foot poles, and the pole "instructions" that came with the
  tent says nothing about how to 'section' them.  So, I ask anyone who has
  dealt with this problem:  How'd you go about dealing with turning long poles
  into shorter, easier to carry poles without much loss of strength...?

  Thanks,
--------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu ---------------------
 
There are two possible ways to section your tent poles. The first
is a method used by Tommy Langenfeld, who attached a hinge to the
one side and a locking mechanism to the other, so that the poles
fold double (effectively making, in your case, a 7.5 foot pole).
Tommy's poles were no more than six feet in length, so this form
of sectioning might not be stable for your poles.

The other way is to creative a metal sleeve which will connect
the sections. Bolts through the sleeve and the pole itself will
strengthen this connection, although the hole in the pole itself
might weaken the pole.

Whichever version you attempt, I would advise you to set up the
tent in your back yard (or some other convenient spot) under
good conditions before taking it into the field. 15-foot poles
seem awfully long, and unless they are very thick, I can foresee
difficulties. If at all possible, keep the tent up under a 
variety of weather conditions (when I replaced the center poles
on my marquee, I left it up in the backyard for about three
weeks, through storms and everything; it convinced me to obtain
18-inch stakes among other things). Setting up the tent under
"friendly" conditions will also be a lot less nerve-racking than
trying to do it at an actual event.

(there is a third alternative, but it is expensive and time-
consuming: purchase the poles when you arrive at the site and
modify them on site. Transporting the poles a few miles is a
lot different from transporting them a few hundred)

Depending on your vehicle, you might also look into a roof rack
that would carry the full-sized poles or a trailer. I remember
the first time I ever saw the poles for a tipi being transported:
the owner of the lodge had a boat trailer which he had modified.
The poles went up at a roughly 45-degree angle, up over the
truck (or van, I forget) and were securely lashed to the trailer
itself. It was, at once, impressive, admirable and frightening.

Yrs, Folo
-- 
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MK) - Commander Baldwin's Reg't (NWTA)

From: paulb at saturn.uark.edu (Paul A. Byers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 08:10:38
Organization: University of Arkansas

odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin) writes:
>  I now have a period tent.  My problem:  There is no possible way I can
>  transport 15 foot poles, and the pole "instructions" that came with the
>  tent says nothing about how to 'section' them.  So, I ask anyone who has
>  dealt with this problem:  How'd you go about dealing with turning long poles
>  into shorter, easier to carry poles without much loss of strength...?

I went to a hardware store and had 2" black pipe cut and threaded to the right 
lengths.  I have 3 short pieces that screw to one very long pole. (Oil them 
when you put them togather.)  I also have a brass pole that I got out of a oil 
field set up the same way for my bed room tent.

Pavel
Calontir

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Sun, 24 Jul 1994 02:43:56 GMT

Iain Odlin asks about how to make a take-down tent pole, and Folo
replies (in part):

"The other way is to creative a metal sleeve which will connect the
sections. Bolts through the sleeve and the pole itself will
strengthen this connection, although the hole in the pole itself
might weaken the pole."

In my experience, the bolts are unneceessary. I use a metal sleeve
about ten inches long, and file down the last five inches of each of
the two sections of tent pole (1 3/4" x 1 3/4" maple) to fit. The
problem isn't getting them to stay together, it is pulling them apart
when Pennsic is over. Using beeswax when putting them together may
make it a little easier.

The other problem is that filing them down does not result in
cylinders that are perfectly concentric with the rest of the pole, so
there is typically a slight bend at the join. The longer the sleeve,
the less serious that problem should be--but the harder it is to put
the sections together and pull them apart. I suppose if I had a lathe
long enough to handle the sections of tent pole, I could get an
almost perfectly concentric cylindrical end--but it would take a
pretty big lathe.

Next question--how did they do it in period? Pictures of persian
pavillions frequently show a band at the middle of the pole which
might be a metal sleeve--but I do not know whether there is any
solider evidence than that.

David/Cariadoc

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: delint at meena.cc.uregina.ca
Subject: RE: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: 25 JUL 94 06:21:38 CST
Organization: University of Regina, Regina, Sask., Canada

In a previous article, ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman) wrote:
> 
>Iain Odlin asks about how to make a take-down tent pole, and Folo
>replies (in part):
> 
>"The other way is to creative a metal sleeve which will connect the
>sections. Bolts through the sleeve and the pole itself will
>strengthen this connection, although the hole in the pole itself
>might weaken the pole."
> 
>In my experience, the bolts are unneceessary. I use a metal sleeve
>about ten inches long, and file down the last five inches of each of
>the two sections of tent pole (1 3/4" x 1 3/4" maple) to fit. The
>problem isn't getting them to stay together, it is pulling them apart
>when Pennsic is over. Using beeswax when putting them together may
>make it a little easier.
{some editing} 
>Next question--how did they do it in period? Pictures of persian
>pavillions frequently show a band at the middle of the pole which
>might be a metal sleeve--but I do not know whether there is any
>solider evidence than that.
> 
>David/Cariadoc

I don't know about period, but my Victorian era bell tent uses essentially
the same trick, except the the ends of the pole are cut at about a 45 degree
angle so the lock into each other.  The sleeve is screwed to the end of one
half, and there's no cutting in-- the sleeve isn't flush with the wood.  It
seems fairly solid (they've survived being decomissioned from army use, transfer
to boy scouts, and at least a half-century of use on the windy interior 
plains of the known world).

Cedric van Kiesterzijl

From: kristina at uclink.berkeley.edu (Kristina Eloisa Pereyra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: 25 Jul 1994 00:15:55 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

More specifically, the poles to support a fifteen foot (canvas) tent should be
larger than standard closet poles (1 5/16) - don't buy those!  The largest size
at our local mill is 1 5/8, which seems to work well, and fits the sleeve well.

The sleeve should be six times the diameter of the poles (about a foot long) and
can be made from 1 1/2 inch metal conduit - light, strong and easy to cut.  Your
local Home Depot will gladly sell you ten feet of it for under $10.

(if you were local, I'd sell you the rest of mine... *wink*)

Phaedria

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: a-mikem at ac.tandem.com (mckay_michael)
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Organization: Atalla Corporation - San Jose, CA.
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 1994 20:40:54 GMT

kristina at uclink.berkeley.edu (Kristina Eloisa Pereyra) writes:
>More specifically, the poles to support a fifteen foot (canvas) tent should be
>larger than standard closet poles (1 5/16) - don't buy those!  The largest size
>at our local mill is 1 5/8, which seems to work well, and fits the sleeve well.

Instead of going "larger", go for "tougher".  Although it is harder to find,
you can buy a number of different types of wood in pole form.  Hard wood is
more expensive, and it also wieghs more.  The only place that has a good
selection (that I know of) in the Southern SF bay area is Southern Lumber in
San Jose.  It runs about $3 a foot.

Seaan McAy    Caer Darth; Darkwood; Mists; West  (Santa Cruz, CA)

From: djheydt at uclink.berkeley.edu (Dorothy J Heydt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: 26 Jul 1994 01:21:52 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

(Hal posting from Dorothy's account...)
In article <CtIK47.1JL at ac.tandem.com>,
mckay_michael <a-mikem at ac.tandem.com> wrote:
>In article <30v07r$rfp at agate.berkeley.edu> kristina at uclink.berkeley.edu (Kristina Eloisa Pereyra) writes:
>>More specifically, the poles to support a fifteen foot (canvas) tent should be
>>larger than standard closet poles (1 5/16) - don't buy those!  The largest size
>>at our local mill is 1 5/8, which seems to work well, and fits the sleeve well.
>
>Instead of going "larger", go for "tougher".  Although it is harder to find,
>you can buy a number of different types of wood in pole form.  Hard wood is
>more expensive, and it also wieghs more.  The only place that has a good
>selection (that I know of) in the Southern SF bay area is Southern Lumber in
>San Jose.  It runs about $3 a foot.

This may be an east coast/west coast thing.  Use of hardwood
appears (for various anecdotal sources) to be more common in the
eastern parts of the US.

Farther north than Sean cites, MacBeath Hardwood (stores in San
Francisco and Berkeley) have fullrounds in a variety of
hardwoods.  1-1/4 inch oak runs about $2.50 a foot (this makes
*great* marshalling staves, by the way).

Depending in how handy you feel, you could start with a square
piece and either saw it down to octagonal and "splice" that with
tubing as previously described or get a spokeshave and make your
own round pole.

What still hasn't been mentioned is *why* the orginal poster
can't transport a 15 foot pole....  Especially if one is using
hardwood, it should be stiff enough to be carried gracefully even
on a quite small car.

	--Hal Ravn
	 (Hal Heydt)

From: jyeates at bga.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Got my period tent; Question about poles
Date: Mon, 01 Aug 94 10:18:49 PDT
Organization: Texas Department of Health

> I now have a period tent.  My problem:  There is no possible way I can
> transport 15 foot poles, and the pole "instructions" that came with the
> tent says nothing about how to 'section' them.  So, I ask anyone who has
> dealt with this problem:  How'd you go about dealing with turning long >poles
> into shorter, easier to carry poles without much loss of strength...?

look up your local metal-worker(s) and find one who can make metal "collars" 
that have retaining pins to secure the pieces together through the "non fixed" 
side of the collar ... will allow you to section the poles and still retain a 
reasonable level of stregth.  

another hint for transport ... get a segment of PVC drain pipe long enough to 
put your poles in with about 6-8" excess space inside ... at one end use a cap, 
at the other a screw in "clean out" cap.  if you want to get fancier, add "d 
rings" to the body of the tube to help secure on the roof-rack.  Same 
contruction also works for pole based things you don't want rattling around - 
like real spears (with blades scabbarded in oiled leather).
 
'wolf

From: haslock at oleum.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Got my period tent;  Question about poles
Date: 3 Aug 1994 22:41:54 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

I went to my local sawmill, bought a 6 foot by 6 inch board of 8 quarters ash
and had them rip it into three 2 inch sections. I then went to a hardware store
and bought 18" of 1.75inch black pipe. I cut the pipe in half and took a rasp
to the pole sections until they fit solidly on the ends of two of the sections.
I kept on using the rasp until the mating ends were a loose fit. This gave me
a three piece 18' pole.

The first time I used it, it rained and the rain swelled the wood in the
top joint. It was months before I was able to separate those sections. I then
took off more wood to restore the original fit and then treated the end of the 
section with one of the 'Danish Oil Finishes'. The pole has given no further
problems in eight years of use. The ends of the sections are square, rather
than cut at 45 degrees. The pole has a noticable bow while in use but the pole
does not flex in response to the wind.

The pole has a pulley set into the top so that the roof can be hauled up rather
than pushed up. A simple pulley is not adequate for this job. Another pulley is
fitted to the top of the roof so the rope is tied to the tip of the pole, runs
through the pulley on the roof, back up to the pulley in the pole and then down
to the person hauling on the rope.

My pole is probably heavier than necessary, but I am content because it has not
failed me and is not showing signs of wear or age.

	Fiacha  

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: nik at ess.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov (Nik Hughes)
Subject: Re: Ropes for a marquee pavilon
Organization: ess.niaid.pc.niaid.nih.gov
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 20:07:10 GMT

 (Karl William Kieninger) writes:
>From: kwk9q at fulton.seas.Virginia.EDU (Karl William Kieninger)
>Subject: Ropes for a marquee pavilon
>Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 16:44:19 GMT

>I realize it is pretty simple, but I have not done it before.
>I have a 9'x15' Marquee for panther primatives.  The perimeter poles
>are 6'.  
>        Can someone please e-mail instructions for preparing robes
>for the pavilion?  I beleive the can be done either with a wooden block
>for tension or with some sort of adjustable know for tension.
>Any help would be appreciated.  
>Thanks,
>Frithuric

Guten Tag Frithuric!

The knot you are looking for is called the Taut Line Hitch. I've tried to 
explain it over the phone before and was less than successful. I won't even 
try via e-mail. However, your local library or camping supply store should 
have any number of books on knots. (Or find someone who was a Boy Scout. That 
is how I learned.)  The advantage to the Taut Line Hitch is that you can 
replace the guy ropes at any time without special preparation.

The wooden block (or dowel) is simple to make in the shop. Cut an appropriate 
length of wood that is at least three times as thick as your rope. Lay the 
piece down on a piece of scrap lumber. Bore two holes straight down (not 
into the end) that are slightly larger than your rope. Run the rope 
down through one hole and back up the other. Tie a knot in the end of the rope 
to keep it from sliding back throught the hole.

Just a word of warning. If you use non-synthetic rope, it tends to stretch in 
the rain. This causes your tent to sag. Tightening the ropes for the duration 
of the rain is a fine thing, but be sure to loosen them as/before the ropes 
dry. As they dry, they shrink again.  Hopefully it is the stakes that give way 
rather than the cloth of the tent, but best not to tempt fate.

Hope this helps!

Klaus von Trollenberg

  +- Nik Hughes (Troll) ----------------------+
  |    Bitnet: NIK%ESS%NIAID at NIH3PLUS.BITNET  |
  |  Internet: NIK at ESS.NIAID.PC.NIAID.NIH.GOV |
  | CompuServ: 71631.224 at COMPUSERVE.COM       |
  +-------------------------------------------+

From: chadwick at fndcd.fnal.gov (keith chadwick)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pavilion/tent poles
Date: 19 Dec 1994 16:17:34 GMT
Organization: Fermilab Computing Division

> and that worked until a particularly windy day. What I'm *guessing* is
> acceptable is a 1 3/4 square center upright (12 feet-ish tall), and 16
> perimeter uprights of about 1 1/4" -- these latter dimensions being 
> actual, not nominal. Has anyone worked with oak (or birch, or ash, or
> any other hardwood) in this kind of situation? Would 1x1.5 perimeter
> uprights be safe? (I couldn't flex them without a great deal more effort
> than I'd expect them to need to withstand, but...)
> 
> I expect the total fabric weight of the tent to be on the near order
> of 100 lbs., perhaps as high as 120.
> 
> Were I on an unlimited weight and expense budget, I'd just spring for 
> 1 3/4 square, trimmed to octagons, with a larger centerpole, but both
> weight and cost adds up quickly; at nearly $3/foot, that's nearly $300 
> for the perimeter poles alone, and they'd be a mite heavy to carry.

	Part of the answer depends on the weather patterns.

	The perimeter poles generally do not bear a significant load,
	furthermore there are 16 of them so the load will be fairly
	well distributed.  I have seen many a pavillion built using
	1.25" to 1.5" square perimeter poles.

	The center pole on the other hand can be subject to a great deal
	of stress.  The weight of the (dry) fabric is not a significant
	factor.  But if the fabric gets soaked that can add several
	hundred pounds of water.  Furthermore if you are in moderate (or
	higher) winds, the upper portion of your pavillon will tend to
	resemble a sail.

	The resultant stress due to wind loading can greatly exceed
	even the weight of water soaked canvas.

	If the canvas is both water soaked, and subject to wind loading,
	I would not be surpirsed if the total load was 2,000 lb (or more).
	This is a significant weight, some of which is going to be supported
	by the canvas and the guy-ropes, but the remainder will be supported
	by the center pole.

	You should be able to find a reference to Euler's Column Formula
	in a good mechanical engineering text book.  This formula gives
	the Critical Force (stress required to result in failure).

	The formula for poles with one end held rigidly is:

                                          pi^2 * E * I
                        Critical Force = --------------
                                            4 * L^2

	If both ends are allowed to flex, the formula is:

                                          pi^2 * E * I
			Critical Force = ----------------
                                              L^2

	Where:	pi = 3.14159.
		E is the modulus of elasticity of the material.
		I is the moment of area.
		L is the length.
	
	The moment of area for a circular cross section of diameter d
	is:

                                pi * d^4
                          I = -----------
                                   64

	The moment of area for a square cross section of side h is:

                                pi * h^4
                          I = -----------
                                   12

	Where are Youngs modulli for selected woods:

			Pine			1.28 x 10^6 psi
			White Ash		1.68 x 10^6 psi
			Birch			2.07 x 10^6 psi
			Pecan Hickory	1.78 x 10^6 psi
			True Hickory	2.18 x 10^6 psi
			Black Locust	2.05 x 10^6 psi
			Red Oak		1.81 x 10^6 psi
			White Oak		1.62 x 10^6 psi

	As you can see, Oak is significantly better than pine, but there
	are other woods which you could consider.

	Off the top of my head, I would personally be rather leery of any
	center pole less than 3" in cross section (but you can run the
	numbers for yourself to see what the critical force is for various
	diameters).

	Another critical factor is to make sure that the wood is sound,
	loose knots or cracks in the wood will significantly reduce the
	load carrying ability of the center pole.

				-Keith Chadwick
				 (Austin Chadwyck knows little of engineering
				 other than how it applies to siegeworks
				 and the taking of Castles).

	References:

	Elements of Strenght of Materials 3rd Edition by S. Timoshenko
	and G. H. MacCullough, Published by D. Van Nostrand Company, Inc.
	in 1949, pages 288 through 297.

	Handbook of Engineering Materials (1955), library of congress
	number TA403.M66h pages 3-1 to 3-39.

	Modulus of Elasticity values taken from The Handbook of Chemistry
	and Physics 42nd Edition (1960-1961), pages 1567 through 1569.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,soc.history.living
From: uccxdem at okway.okstate.edu (David Mann)
Subject: Re: Pavilion/tent poles
Organization: OSU CIS
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 16:26:25 GMT

In article <3d3e78$9a3 at hustle.rahul.net>, Kevin Davis Connery <keradwc at rahul.net> says:
>
>It's that time again, and help is requested.
>
>Another pavilion is being built, this one about 13' round, and made--
>why-oh-why-am-I-doing-this--of canvas.  What I'm looking for is any 
>information on what size of poles are appropriate, or safe, or whatever.
>deletia
>Alternatives? Tips? Suggestions?
>
>--kdc 
>-- 
>Keradwc an Cai                   A Caidan Mistie (or was that a Misty Caidan?)
>Kevin Davis Connery              kconnery at isi.com or  keradwc at rahul.net

Greetings Keradwc,
Questions first. Where do you figure 100# for a 13' round? Is this with 
walls? The top should weight in around 30-40 lbs, and about the same for the
 walls. Have you looked at 2"x2"x8' furring strips? These will usually come
in 3 grades and they are of pine. I use the best grade and select the ones
I can use. The criteria are straightness, no knots, no cracks. The poles are
then cut to length and painted. I paint the poles because one) sometimes the
ground where we are setup at is damp or two) is rains on our way to or from
an event. The paint keeps the wood from getting sodden and rotting and the 
poles can be wiped off from mud. The best paint is a latex enamel. The
pavilions we had set up at Steppes Warlord this year didn't break a pole. The
event had a gust front come through with 60mph winds. The List field pavilion
uses pvc poles and the dining pavilion at camp had pine poles.
As for the length, 6.5' is a good height.

						Marke
						Design Master
						Mooneschadowe Pavilion Co.
						Mooneschadowe, Ansteorra 

From: mjc+ at cs.cmu.edu (Monica Cellio)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pavilion/tent poles
Date: 19 Dec 94 16:48:46 GMT
Organization: Carnegie-Mellon University, School of Computer Science

I can't comment on the best size for the center pole, having never had
a round pavillion.  (Though I'd be nervous with a 2x2 myself.)  My 
rectangular pavillion has side poles made of pine 2x2 (that is, 2x4 
cut in half lengthwise).  The side poles don't bear much weight, and
this size has never been a problem.  It's possible that smaller poles
would have worked fine, but 2x4s were what was practical when I was
building the thing.  (The ridge and two center supports were also 2x2s
(this time genuine, not cut-down), with a maximum height of 8 feet.)

Ellisif (who now has a yurt that shouldn't require a center pole *next* year)

From: folo at prairienet.org (F.L. Watkins)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pavilion/tent poles
Date: 20 Dec 1994 00:55:34 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

For finishing poles, I would suggest a good paint (not a stain)
and then linseed oil (boiled; unboiled never dries) and pumice
rubbed in. Take a look at various paints on the market for
historical homes: they try to match early American paint colors,
which are probably going to be the nearest you can get to
earlier period paints as well (if this is an incorrect assumption,
I hope someone who knows will post additional information). It
appears that paint was more commonly used than stains because
the folks of the time were trying to hide, not accent, the cheap
woods they often used.

However, personally, I just assume that I'm gonna replace poles
--gradually, not all at the same time--over the course of a few
years. I use 2x2 pine furring strips for the most part, sanded
to octagons, sanded and then covered with a blue paint. And I
always have a couple extras around at an event: in case a pole
goes bad or in case I need a length of wood for another purpose
(like to replace the forgotten crossbeam of a table at last
Pennsic...)

Yrs, Folo
-- 
Damin de Folo - F.L.Watkins - folo at prairienet.org
Baron Wurm Wald (MidRealm) - Commander Baldwin's (NWTA)

From: ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu (1/1/95)
To: Mark Harris
RE>Pavilion/tent poles

>I guess I don't understand how this pulley system works. Since the pole
>and pulley have to project through the tent, doesn't this leave a large
>hole near the peak even after the tent is pitched? If you use a simple
>grommet and pin arrangement, then there is only a small hole and that
>is completely on top of the end of the pole. I can see how the pulley
>can start off above the tent, so it doesn't have to fit through a hole,
>but doesn't the tent pole have to pass through the tent?

The pulley is a small one inset into a hole in the center pole, near the
top, so you only need a hole in the tent that the pole can go through--and
besides, as I think you are suggesting, you can pass the butt end of the
tentpole through the roof from above. If you look at period pictures, it
seems clear that the tentpole projected through the top of the tent,
sometimes with pennons etc. flying from it. I have a sort of inverted
leather funnel that fits around the tent pole near the top, to keep water
from getting through the hole--which is probably only five or six inches in
diameter.

If you know someone with a copy of the Miscellany that my wife and I
self-publish, it has an article. I would change lots of things if I were
rewriting it, but I think it does explain the pulley system.

David/Cariadoc
David Friedman
ddfr at midway.uchicago.edu

From: Hendle1 at aol.com (7/6/95)
To: markh at sphinx
RE>Viking Tents--long poles

Well, in answer to your question about how I dealt with the long poles, I
made the struts and stuff from 5/4 stock of various sizes (5/4 x 6 for the
ridgepole with two 5/4 x 4 pieces glued on to form the "pole" part at the
top) and made each pole, strut etc. with timberframe joints so that they
could break down for travel and transport and go together quickly at a site
with pegs or, in the case of the struts where I needed a clamplike action as
well as a peg to keep the joint from slipping, I made wooden bolts and nuts
out of dowels, balls and, in some cases, wooden toy wheels. It has all worked
very well in the Viking tent for three years and I have utilized the same
methods in a Saxon tent version using the same canvas for trips when I don't
want to take as many pieces of lumber. It all fits with my other equipment
neatly in our Mercury Villager too (the first set, a bit less rugged and
detailed, was made to fit in a Volvo's back seat!).

If you have any more questions, or things to share, don't hesitate to contact
me, for next year I am building a 16 x 16 mitered square very much like the
one you mention. Do you belong to the Architectural Guild? If you have good
ideas we could use them, and I would appreciate them none the less.

Lord Aelfric of Sarisberie
Malagentia, East Kingdom

[submitted by E.B.]
From dervish at ogre.demon.co.ukFri Apr 26 13:48:53 1996
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 15:30:12 GMT
From: Pip Sullivan <dervish at ogre.demon.co.uk>
To: sca at mc.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Tent Skeletons (was: Re: Etymology of "pavillion")

dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters) wrote:

>Countess Susannah
>Griffon (who received her Laurel for her skill, knowledge, and teaching
>of making period pavilions) says:  "It seemed to me that period folk
>would not have wanted to transport masses of framework and support poles.
>This seemed to be proven true by the period illustrations.  In most
>period pictures, no supports are shown, except for the center pole*, and
>the walls appear to hang loosely from a stiffly shaped and stretched
>roof.  The roofs were stretched tight by guylines which appeared to be
>attached to the roof edge and several had ropes in forked groups of up to
>five." (from CA 26, _Pavilions of the Known World_, p. 5)

Having no experience whatever of pavilions, and no historical
knowledge, my common sense would tell me that the above is true. I
would also think that, since wood was so readily available in period,
would it not be possible that any frame work was made-on-site, as it
were, whenever the pavilion was transported? It would certainly be
easier than transporting the pole(s), if there was plently to be had
where they were going, and cheap labour would not be a problem...

Pip Sullivan (Somerset, UK)

From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mundane vs. Period Pavilions
Date: 3 Aug 1996 17:56:35 GMT
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY

>> In a recent article (<4tr2sm$9nt at newsbf02.news.aol.com>), sthomas728 at aol.com (SThomas728) wrote:
>> >I assume a mundane tent (say 10X20) is heavier than a period one as it has
>> >an interior frame structure requiring more poles whereas a period tent has
>> >one center poole and only perimiter poles. However, when using a period
>> >tent, what happens when the ground is so hard it is impossible to get
>> >stakes in? The tent can't go up! 
 
Kevin Davis Connery wrote:
>> With iron stakes,
>> I've been able to anchor pavilions onto solid rock. Asphalt is much
>> softer, and concrete is rarely as tough. (Now, getting *permission* to
>> put holes in asphalt or concrete is a different matter.)

Kim Pollard  <kim at inna.net> replied:
>       Um, another good question may be just the opposite... what about
>ground that has been soaked to the saturation point and will not hold
>stakes any longer?  Been there, done that, and still trying to find an
>answer for the period tent (till then, I'm using a modern set-up).

The obvious answer to me is "bigger stakes".  Westerners who observed
Bedouin culture in the 19th and early 20th century noticed that, to hold
down large tents in windy conditions on sand, the Bedouins used stakes
THREE FEET long.  (This is my recollection from Faegre's _Tents: the
Architecture of the Nomads_.)

                                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
--
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
                                         http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
                                        Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University

Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 09:15:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: French Double Bell Tents

Tent stuff:

There were little cloth ties that were a real pain to open in the morning.
  What do other people do to shut their tents?   I have seen velcro, but the
  sound of it ripping open really brings me to the modern world.

I use cloth ties on my Panther-made pavillion (I made the poles) and the
cloth ties work well for me.  I use a half-bow knot... just like a square
not, but one of the final ties is doubled before it is looped.  One pull,
and the door pops open.

	Tibor

Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 08:55:55 +0100
From: Ninni M Pettersson <vidumavi at swipnet.se>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: French Double Bell Tents

>  There were little cloth ties that were a real pain to open in the morning.
>  What do other people do to shut their tents?   I have seen velcro, but the
>  sound of it ripping open really brings me to the modern world.
>
>I use cloth ties on my Panther-made pavillion (I made the poles) and the
>cloth ties work well for me.  I use a half-bow knot... just like a square
>not, but one of the final ties is doubled before it is looped.  One pull,
>and the door pops open.

We were never very happy with the cloth ties on our pavilion, so last
spring when I was doing some restructuring, I replaced them with toggles.
Just ordinary toggles (not the largest variety) from my local fabric store,
fastened with sturdy cotton ribbons and using cotton ribbons for the loops.
The sides of the opening overlap about 2 inches with the toggles on the
inside of the "outer" flap and the loops on the "inner" flap. The loops
should be as small as possible to prevent the toggles from accidentally
working loose. (But if you use as many as I did - one every 4 inches - one
or two working loose doesn't really matter.)
We found that this worked admirably: the toggles were easy to close and
open, and alowed for some independent movement of the respective sides of
the opening, thus reducing stress in a high wind.

Adeliz de Hauerford
Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald

From: "Tom Parr" <seamus at elfsea.net>
Date: Thu May 29, 2003  8:02:50 AM US/Central
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] tent stakes

Baron Fritz of the Steppes makes wonderful stakes or if 
you want pre-made super heavy-duty stakes check out

www.pantherprimitives.com

Their stakes are great!

Seamus

From: "Hugh Prescott" <hugh345 at adams.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Panther Setup kit directions?
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 19:59:24 -0500

We have a 14 x 14 Panther wall tent.

Side poles are 6 feet with a 5/16 or 3/8 steel pin in the top and about 4
inches long.  Don't put a nail in for the pin, it will bend in high wind and
off go your ropes.

Made nice poles with laminated 3/4 straight grain fir boards. Cut them
square out of the glue up and then ran them through a planer to make 8
sided.

Center pole is 10 feet long with same size pin but longer (12 inch).  Long
pin keeps the canvas from coming off in high wind and punching a hole in the
canvas.

We drive a full sized (Econoline 150) van and our center pole is one piece
(load it with the 9 foot spears). Load your poles with pins to the rear and
low in your van incase of sudden stop.

One of our daughters has a similar (Regency) tent from Panther and needed a
two piece pole. Made it from 1 1/4 thinwall electricial conduit with a inner
sleeve welded in one peice. Worked well.

Both tents withstood the infamous Lillies 80 plus mph winds some years ago.

If your Panther requires a ridge pole lay the top out and measure the
distance between the holes. Panther could not give me the center to center
distance when I called them for out 14 x 18. I don't think they have a
"standard" so measure then drill.

Hugh
high & dry in a Panther, already loaded for Pennsic

"Gwen Morse" <goldmoon at geocities.com> wrote 
> I called Panther to get the setup kit directions, but, sadly, they
> can't get them to me via the internet, only mail or fax. They're
> sending them out via mail (no fax), but, it will be a few days.
>
> I have a 10'x10' wall tent (which according to the catalogue is really
> closer to 11x11). I was wondering if anyone had the directions on
> making your own uprights and ridgepole. I imagine that they can't be
> _too_ complicated (the uprights just need to be straight poles of a
> particular length with metal stakes pounded in the tops.
>
> In particular, I'm hoping that the directions have information on
> cutting the ridgepole in half and connecting it with a collar of some
> sort (for easier transport). Do they in fact include this information?
>
> If the directions aren't too long and someone out there has them, I'd
> really appreciate it if they could type them in (or a shorthand form).
>
> Gwen

From: law <lawiserdontspam at nospamatt.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Panther Setup kit directions?
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:11:45 GMT

Gwen Morse wrote:
> In particular, I'm hoping that the directions have information on
> cutting the ridgepole in half and connecting it with a collar of some
> sort (for easier transport). Do they in fact include this information?

I can't seem to pull out a picture of the Panther wall tent, but I can 
tell you what I did for my 10x12 wall tent (from another vendor) that 
you can see

here:  http://www.fcsutler.com/pwalltntpics.jpg

My ridge pole is a 12' 2x4, and the end poles are 2x2's.  The height of 
the ridge pole and uprights should be the height of your tent (8'4"??). 
  The ridge pole is turned so 2" side is in the ridge.

There are several ways I've seen to fashion a connection between the two 
poles ... more wood, hinges, etc.  However, my father made my poles and 
used two separate 2x4's (actually, because he's really cautious and 
worried about the weight of the poles, he got 2x6's and ripped to be a 
true 4" width), and cut half the width of the poles for about a foot and 
then drilled holes so they can be connected with carriage bolts, washers 
and nuts.

Basically, two poles like the below so that the notched pieces slip 
together and become the 4" width.  I use a smooth flat head bolt on the 
ridge side with washer at the top of the hole(under the washer head) and 
under the wood before the nut.  I suppose you could use a wing nut, but 
I just carry the proper size open end wrench as part of my equipment.
____________________________________
|                         __________
|_________________________|

  For the uprights, we drilled a starter hole in the one end of the 
upright and then screwed a carriage bolt into it, leaving the smooth 
"shank" exposed, then cut off the bot head.  This slips into the hole 
drilled into the ridge pole.  You need to make sure the holes in the 
ridge pole correspond with the holes in the top of the tent  so you 
don't overstretch your material but so that you have a smooth edge (no 
wrinkles to collect water).

Lia

From: "Michael Grossberg" <geejayem at earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Panther Setup kit directions?
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2004 15:11:56 GMT

"Gwen Morse" <goldmoon at geocities.com> wrote
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:11:45 GMT, law <lawiserdontspam at nospamatt.net>
> wrote:
> >Gwen Morse wrote:
> >> In particular, I'm hoping that the directions have information on
> >> cutting the ridgepole in half and connecting it with a collar of some
> >> sort (for easier transport). Do they in fact include this information?
> >
> >I can't seem to pull out a picture of the Panther wall tent, but I can
> >tell you what I did for my 10x12 wall tent (from another vendor) that
> >you can see
>
> It's reasonably close enough. You're describing a center ridge pole
> and two upright end poles.
>
> I had made my own poles (with help) about six years ago. But, they
> were left in the care of another person and rotted.
>
> So, I went to home depot today and just did everything by 'eye', from
> what I remembered them looking like.
>
> >My ridge pole is a 12' 2x4, and the end poles are 2x2's.  The height of
> >the ridge pole and uprights should be the height of your tent (8'4"??).
> >  The ridge pole is turned so 2" side is in the ridge.
>
> My ridge pole is _now_ a 11' long 2x4. The uprights are 7' long 2x2's.
> If I happen to get any measurements wrong and the poles end up too
> short (rather than too long), then, I can get new ones. The wood was
> dirt cheap (I paid ~$15 for the three poles, if that).
>
> >There are several ways I've seen to fashion a connection between the two
> >poles ... more wood, hinges, etc.  However, my father made my poles and
> >used two separate 2x4's (actually, because he's really cautious and
> >worried about the weight of the poles, he got 2x6's and ripped to be a
> >true 4" width), and cut half the width of the poles for about a foot and
> >then drilled holes so they can be connected with carriage bolts, washers
> >and nuts.
>
> That sounds like more work than I can do. My only power tool is a
> drill :).
>
> But, hinges could be an idea. I could cut the wood in half, then screw
> on really strong hinges. The two pieces would be stable when extended
> out, and then fold in the middle to be 5.5' "long" for transport. I'll
> have to take the wood back to HD for the cut, but, I can defiantely
> attach hinges with my drill :).
>
> >  For the uprights, we drilled a starter hole in the one end of the
> >upright and then screwed a carriage bolt into it, leaving the smooth
> >"shank" exposed, then cut off the bot head.  This slips into the hole
>
> I have a piece of round metal stock. It's almost like rebar or
> something, except it's a reasonably light metal (aluminum? light
> steel?) and it's very smooth. It's "1/2" round stock". I'm going to
> use a hacksaw to cut it. I remember it being a little 'soft' (it had a
> tendency to bend) so, if I make another set of poles after Pennsic
> (which is my plan), I might try your bolt suggestion. I handled
> several bolts at home depot, and they "felt" like they wouldn't bend.
> I just didn't want to have to fuss with worrying about getting the
> heads cut off.
>
> The stock, wood, and a 1/2" drill bit were $20. I was floored by how
> little it cost :).
>
> >drilled into the ridge pole.  You need to make sure the holes in the
> >ridge pole correspond with the holes in the top of the tent  so you
> >don't overstretch your material but so that you have a smooth edge (no
> >wrinkles to collect water).
>
> That's a good point. I knew I had to pull my tent out to check
> everything, but, I was only thinking about the 'length' of the poles.
> The hole placement _is_ very important!
>
> I ended up buying pressure-treated lumber. Is that what I would want
> for  the long term, or, would I maybe want to look into ordering some
> sort of special hardwood for the ridge pole? I know the supports can
> be any sort of sturdy 2x2. And, my ridgepole is going to be turned  so
> I drill through the 4" section, not the 2" section, so that it doesn't
> bow in the middle.
>
> But, I can't help but think I want the "best" wood for my ridgepole.
> I'm just not sure that pressure-treated lumber is it.
>
> Gwen

Hardwood is always better than softwood for poles, but finding large pieces
can be difficult and expensive.  The pine studding you can get from Home Depot
will do just fine.  If you want, you can plane, sand, or otherwise smooth it, and apply all sorts of finishes, to seal it and make it last.  As far as sectioning the ridge-pole for a wall tent, if you want to spend the money, Panther has a metal sleeve made for just that purpose.  It even has a curved top, so that no square/sharp edges touch the canvas.

Gardr Gunnarsson
Barony of Settmour Swamp

From: Eule <eule at ecpi.com>
Date: January 22, 2007 3:28:10 PM CST
To: 'Barony of Bryn Gwlad' <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Tent Stakes

<<< Good ideas all. And they would probably work just fine anywhere other 
than Gulf War. The soil there is just too sandy to give a good hold to 
any normal tent stakes, especially with a large heavy canvas tent. What 
you need are wide, long stakes that will give a better grip in such 
soft, sandy ground.

Charles >>>

At Gulf Wars, I've had great success with auger stakes.  About 12" long
with about a 3" auger bit on the end, just screw them into the ground
and they hold in sandy soil very well.  I only use them on the corners
(2 per corner) and 12" rebar stakes on the sides and haven't had any
problems.  You, of course, have to tighten the ropes throughout the
week, but I've not had any of these stakes come out of the ground.  They
are also very easy to remove...just unscrew them.

I also use high wind lines across the center poles as well and have them
secured to these auger stakes as well.

Of course, these would not work at all in the "soil" around here! ;-)

Eule/Steve
Unus sed Leo

From: caladin <caladin at io.com>
Date: January 22, 2007 1:32:00 AM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Bryn-gwlad] military surplus

Marlin and Amanda Stout wrote:
> -At Gulf War you'll need really serious stakes to keep it set up. Last
> year Anna and I borrowed a Panther Marquis (which is actually smaller)
> from HL Jason and HLy Pegasus. We fought a week-long running battle
> trying to keep it up, and had the entire side we were sleeping in fall
> on us when it rained one night. I'd suggest something wide and long,
> like military engineer stakes, for any large canvas object being  
> set up on that kind of sandy soil.
>
> Charles

Cool Boy Scout tricks for when your stakes are pulling out on you ..

Tip #1 Put your first stake in as normal then put another stake about a
foot to 18" behind it... tie a tight rope (usually the excess)
from stake 1 directly to stake 2.

\
  \
   T---T

Kinda like that
(Often just doing the upwind corners is enough)

Tip #2 add a Weather Line (or a rain line, or a squall line) from the
top of the centerpole(s) then directly upwind about 10-15 feet out from
the outermost stake (optionally double stake it as above). This keeps
the center pole rigid, reducing the stress on the rest of the stakes.

Tip # 3 (if it's not obvious) put every single stake in the tent
where ever it will accept them, firmly and tightly.

Cal-

From: "Miles Grey" <Kahn at West-Point.org>
Date: July 7, 2008 10:32:25 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Tent ridge poles

Tina Michael wrote:
<<< I am going to build a new pavillion and need some info on the best way to
construct a ridge pole. Now, I have gone to Panther  Pavllions and priced
their 14 ft pole and they want $116.00 ! Yikes! I know I want to make it
in sections so it can be put together easily and taken apart for packing.
Has anybody made their own ridge pole? What did you use for the pole? What
about the sleeve? Since I am a lady alone it needs to be easy for me to do
without a lot of help. Any ideas???

Tina >>>

  I'd recommend a style of pavilion that doesn't have a ridge pole.  From
Panther, there's the "Center Pole Marquis" (page 20 of the current
catalog), the "Carousel Pavilion," the "Round Marquis" (both on page
25), and the "Regent Pavilion (page 28).  These styles can be set up by
a single person, while tents with a ridge pole usually require at least
two people.  Yes, I've heard of people setting up a pavilion with ridge
pole by themselves, and I might give it a try if it was necessary, but
it would be a challenge and is probably more than a lady alone wants to
attempt.

  Of course, the center pole will still need to be a two-part pole,
leaving you with the same concerns about how to construct it.  There are
arguments for and against oak as a material, but I'd probably eschew oak
because of the expense.  Whether you go with a round, octagonal, or
square cross section, you really should have a stout, rigid sleeve
covering the entire overlap and extending beyond it.  At a recent event,
I saw a carousel pavilion that stood up under very strong winds in a
severe thunderstorm right up until the wind (more than 60mph) reversed
direction during particularly heavy rain and snapped the center pole. 
The pole failed at the point where it was overlapped and fastened
together - the hub was acting as the sleeve but it didn't cover the
entire overlap.

  Because it's difficult to get cast iron pipe in larger sizes these days,
it's probably best to go with a welded sleeve.  There are probably some
folks in the barony who can help with that.  If you have access to the
tools (table saw or router table), you could make an octagonal sleeve
using narrow oak planks (the length of the sleeve you want) and epoxy
with the "bird's mouth spar" technique used by some wooden boat
builders.  I read about it in "Wooden Boat" magazine - a cross section
of the concept can be found at:
http://pragdata.com/philboat/PlanBirdsmouth.html

  This website doesn't go into the details, but the "spar" is held
together with large hose clamps while the epoxy sets (test fit it a
couple times before applying the epoxy - wear some sort of rubber gloves
- it can get messy).  You tighten the hose clamps until they start
crushing the wood at the eight high points.  When done, you can round
the outside or knock down those high points with a hand plane or a power
sander to give a nice-looking 8-sided piece.  It doesn't take big pieces
of oak to end up with a large-diameter sleeve, and this type of
construction depends on both the strength and gap-filling ability of
epoxy.

  Miles Grey

From: Haraldr Bassi <ansteorra at haraldr.drakkar.org>
Date: July 7, 2008 11:25:14 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Tent ridge poles

Tent poles don't need to be terribly expensive or complicated. Look for some high quality straight grain douglas fir 2x4 in a good lumber yard. To make a full 14' board will require two 8' boards. If two 8' 2x4s are better priced and quality than a 16' 2x4 then get them. Usually the longer 2x4s are much better quality than the 8' "stud" grade and well worth the couple dollars extra. A pair of 10' boards will be fine as well, and give you much more 'spare' wood in case your cuts wander too far. As long as you end up with enough wood to make your span you will be fine. The joint doesn't need to be in the exact center.

You will need some basic tools to start, a hand saw and a drill w/bits. Using whatever method you need, create an angle "gauge" between 15 and 22 degrees or so (specific is not as important as ensuring the angle stays consistent). Use that gauge to cut the end of the 2x4 and mark an angle 8-12" from the cut end of the 2x4 in the opposite direction on the face (wide side). Using the saw, cut the 2x4 on the marked angle to one half of the depth of the 2x4. Then rip the 2x4 in half vertically from the angle cut end to the marked 1/2 cut through angle. This will allow that piece to come out leaving a 8-12" half lap joint with angled ends in opposite directions. Kinda looks like this:
_________________________...
\||||||||||/
 \||||||||/
  -----------------------...

The vertical hashing represents where you cut the board in half vertically.

Now do the same type of thing to the second board (or other end of a 16' 2x4) remembering that this needs to be the mate of the piece you just made. Easiest is to use the cut end to layout the next piece so that the actual cuts you made are transferred.

When you are done, you will have two ends of a 2x4 board, each 1/2 of the thickness of the 2x4, with angles that fit to the angles on the other end of the half lap joint you are making. You might need to tune the pieces so they meet cleanly with no major gaps. The mutual angles, when coupled with a bolt or three, cause the board to lock itself into position. Any downward force is buttressed by the other half of the joint, making a very strong mechanical joint. But that is only effective when there are no major gaps.

Then simply drill some holes for 2 or 3  1/4"-3/8" carriage bolts, use some big fender washers and tighten the joint. It won't move. You will need to pack a pair of wrenches to setup your tent. Leave them in your tent setup kit so you never forget them.

As always, watch out for knots and other cracks or crappy wood. Selecting decent wood to begin with is good.

The wood will probably run about $10. The carriage bolts, maybe another dollar or so. Your time is your own, but you learn a new skill. Even if you need to purchase the tools, you are still better off financially as you end up having tools available for the next project.

I generally use 2x3 for my uprights when I can get it, 2x4 otherwise. For perimeter poles on my wall tent, I found some light weight cedar and ripped it down in half to make some nice light weight poles.

Ease the edges of the poles with a round over bit in a router, or a plane or use a heavy rasp and sand paper. You don't want sharp edges catching your canvas or your clothing.

Haraldr Bassi, Bjornsborg

From: Eadric Anstapa <eadric at scabrewer.com>
Date: July 7, 2008 9:43:00 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Tent ridge poles

Go to the big box home improvement stores and buy chain link fence top rails.  They have a swaged end so that they will fit together an do a good job both for ridgepoles and when you need taller uprights.

-EA

Tina Michael wrote:
 <<< I am going to build a new pavillion and need some info on the best way to
construct a ridge pole. Now, I have gone to Panther  Pavllions and priced
their 14 ft pole and they want $116.00 ! Yikes! I know I want to make it in
sections so it can be put together easily and taken apart for packing. Has
anybody made their own ridge pole? What did you use for the pole? What about the sleeve? Since I am a lady alone it needs to be easy for me to do without a lot of help. Any ideas???

Tina >>>

From: Eric Brown <caladin at io.com>
Date: February 23, 2009 7:20:47 PM CST
To: Barony of Bryn Gwlad <bryn-gwlad at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Bryn-gwlad] Period hand forged stakes... cheap

I've heard several folks talking of late about cutting and forging their own stakes for their period pavilions,
and While I'm all for more people learning to forge, (it's one more thing on my "sweaty AND fun" list... )

I found when I was surfing sites from other reenactment groups to look for clever ideas to rip off.. ahem
searching for inspiration, so I could forge more cool stuff for my period pavilion.. I bumped into these two sites that sell them
cheaply enough It's barely worth making them yourself.

pre made stakes for less thank $2 each... when you add in cost to buy
materials, that's a pretty good price, from Jas Townsend
http://jas-townsend.com/product_info.php?products_id=55

longer and cheaper, but I've never done business with this company,
I've bought stuff from JAS Townsend (link above) and they
great, plus my brother does business with them as well..
http://milkcreek.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1467

For those of you who have never heard of Jas Townsend, even if you don't buy the stakes there, I suggest you get a catalog... tons of cool stuff for re-enactors, even if some of it is targeted way to late.

The article that set of the search implied you can get them even cheaper down as low as 1$-ish, but thats what I found.

Caladin-

From: Lothar <Lothar at CENTURYTEL.NET>
Date: April 21, 2010 5:35:45 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

When you are buying the 2x2's try and pick from an open bundle. if they just cut it open you cant tell if its warped, and some of them can look like a snake 2 days later.

<<< Quick question:  As we have a new shadefly but without poles, what does the collective mind recommend that we use?  Should we go with bannisters?  Dowels?  2x4's? >>>

We use 2x4's for the center, and 2x2s for the edges. Banisters and dowels can't hold up to strong Lilies winds, in my experience.
 
<<<  And while I'm at it, what's the best type of rope to use?  Please don't suggest hemp -- I'm allergic! >>>

Sisal. Either 3/8" or 1/4".

<<< -- Logan -- >>>

From: Jim Myers <jim at SCHUYLERHOUSE.COM>
Date: April 21, 2010 5:50:44 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

I've found that if you rip the corner off of 2x2's (and make them into octagons) they almost never warp, and are slightly thicker/stronger than 1-1/4" round closet poles-and don't look modern. Good for smaller flys. Some lumber yards also carry 2x3's, which are a nice middle-ground, as the 2x2's can be a bit shaky in the Lilies' winds Logan mentioned (depending on the size of the fly, maybe more than just shaky). I took some 2x3's and ripped a 1/2" off each corner and made some really nice flat-sided octagonal poles that didn't look like modern dimensional lumber. If you want to splurge on cedar, it makes really nice, lightweight poles (I like to get cedar 2x6's and rip them in half longways, then take off the corners to make them octagonal, which gets you 2-nice octagonal 2x3's), and painting/sealing them will help not only with appearance, but warping and rotting also.
 
We use either manila or nylon rope (so it lasts longer), but sisal is documentably period...  :]
 
Eringlin

From: Eleanor Deyeson <eleanordeyeson at WINDSTREAM.NET>
Date: April 21, 2010 5:58:23 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

On Wed, Jim Myers <jim at SCHUYLERHOUSE.COM> wrote:
<<< I've found that if you rip the corner off of 2x2's (and make them into
octagons) they almost never warp, and are slightly thicker/stronger than
1-1/4" round closet poles-and don't look modern. >>>

Gerald made poles like this 20some years ago, and in the intervening years,
only 2 broke in a huge storm.  We are still using these poles.

Eleanor Deyeson

From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Date: April 21, 2010 10:18:46 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

On Apr 21, 2010, at 5:50 PM, Jim Myers wrote:
<<< I've found that if you rip the corner off of 2x2's (and make them into octagons) they almost never warp, and are slightly thicker/stronger than 1-1/4" round closet poles-and don't look modern. Good for smaller flys. >>>

If you have access to a table saw, this is what I would recommend. We did this for the 12 outside poles of our 17 ft. x 17 ft. square pavilion. These were then stained and varnished.   And yes, I handpicked through the 2 x 2s at Home Depot to find decent ones. Also looking for a minimum of knots and no missing knots (ie: holes and notches) I wouldn't be cutting off at the ends.  The quality of lumber such as this has really gone down in the last 20-30 years. :-(

I originally just drove in some large nails at the top to go through the grommets in the pavilion. I really need to get some quarter-inch? rod and cut and drill some replacements.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
  Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas

From: Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at SCHULDY.ORG>
Date: April 22, 2010 7:49:58 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

'wela Brown wrote:
<<< Quick question:  As we have a new shadefly but without poles, what does the collective mind recommend that we use?  Should we go with bannisters?  Dowels?  2x4's?  And while I'm at it, what's the best type of rope to use?  Please don't suggest hemp -- I'm allergic!  (Yes, the '70's sucked for me!) >>>

About 20 years ago (was it 20? Yikes!) I rented a table saw for a day,
and ripped down 2x4s to make 2x2 tent poles.  I drilled holes in them,
inserted large nails with construction adhesive, and cut the heads off
the nails with a metal cutting wheel that I mounted in the rented
table saw.  (If you do this, do as I did: remove all the sawdust prior
to showering hot metal sparks through the table saw.)

I still have and use all the poles: it worked great.  I sealed them with
some non-period sealant to keep water out.  It was also pretty cheap,
since 2x4 are inexpensive, and a one day rental of a table saw was
not too bad, either.

My main tent poles are plain old 2x4s for the vertical and
horizontal.  The small ones are for the edges.

Rope: I think mine is manila, but I have no special recommendation.
I found a large spool on deep discount, bought the whole thing.
I would advocate against modern plastics - they tend to stretch
out and are a pain to use.

	Tibor

From: Catherine Kinsey <Ckinsey at KUMC.EDU>
Date: April 22, 2010 8:05:25 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

I got all the 2x2's for our fly at the same time and wondered why one of them decided to just, well, go it's own way over time :).  Even if they are treated I still recommend hitting them with a coat of waterproofing, if you happen to have some around.
 
And I really like the slides we have on our ropes, both fly and tent.  they make it so much easier to tighten and loosen, especially when you are in a hurry with a storm coming.  Chris did a whole stack at one time with a 1x2 and drill.  Hole needs to be just big enough to pass the rope through without to much drag, the tension will hold it the rest of the time.
 
Liriel

From: Stephen Allie <allies at HUGHES.NET>
Date: April 22, 2010 8:11:04 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

What I am saying is sisal is far more prone to rot then manila. Manila has natural oils in it that cause it to last much longer. Furthermore it has a higher rating for strength then sisal and it is much easier on the hands.  Both have the tendacy to leave splinters but manila is far softer.  You will note that sisal is cheaper but I will stand by my statement that it will rot much faster.   

Seamus

On Apr 21, 2010, Dallas Bardot <huscarl115 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
<<< Are you seriously saying that sisal rots from air contact? How is it
that I have some I have been using for over a decade? How does it
survive shipping to the store?

Aethelwyn >>>

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 5:34 PM, Stephen Allie <allies at hughes.net> wrote:
> Never use sisal it rots upon contact to the air the strongest and most
> durable is manila. I use 1/4" and never had an issue at all.   The British
> Navy used it to replace all their ship rigging starting in 1850 I suggest
> 2x2 for uprights and 2x4 for ridges
>
> Seamus O'Cearbhaill

From: Hugh Prescott <hugh at QUINCYHOBBY.COM>
Date: April 22, 2010 10:00:56 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

Several of the sun flys on the archery field have poles made by Thomas & Marie of Cologne, Ashlin, Hugh & Lynette. We set up a production run of IIRC 30 or so at a time.

Tried ripping 2x4, sorting 2x2 etc none looked the same as in a matched set of poles. None were "straight".

Home Depot has 1x2 clear pine in 6 and 8 foot lengths so we glue up pairs which make an almost square 1.75 by 1.75 pole. I have a straight length of steel beam so each glue up is clamped to it with several C clamps. They come our of the clamp straight.

Next step is through a planner to make them all the same size and clean all the excess glue off.

Then we use a 45 degree router bit with an edge guide bearing to turn them into 8 sided poles on a router table. 
Cut steel rod stock and round one end and insert into a hole drilled in one end.

We usually finish them with stain and poly finish for durability. Some of then we cord wrap around the upper end and poly u[rethene] or tung oil finish to keep it from unraveling.  Can also paint as needed.

Hugh

From: Stephanie Cohen <olga0714 at SBCGLOBAL.NET>
Date: April 22, 2010 11:01:17 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

I thought I’d add a couple  little tricks Morwen has been using on our shop tent:  set up the ropes with a metal ring on the non-sliding loop end, and another on the loop itself (or use a few links of chain)- it prevents the rope chafing on the stake or pole spike.  And, it’s more efficient to put the end ring on the stake, and the loop over the pole- you’re then pulling downwards on the slides to tighten the rope rather than upwards. 

Olga

From: Lisa Lamme <lmlamme at YAHOO.COM>
Date: April 22, 2010 12:08:34 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Shade Fly Poles

From: Vincent De Vere
<<< Our big tent has maple 2 in by 2 in (not 2x2's) and the center poles are laminations of hickory and honey locust.  yeah, don't do that, it's overkill and very heavy.    

Vincent >>>

Those center poles may be overkill, but with the Lilies storms, we can be sure at least the Harp will still be standing!
 
Bless your innkeeper heart!  I remember the first year you all had that big green and burgundy tent and the night of the chili dog feast.  A HUGE storm swept in and people were holding the sides of the tent up tight to the top so water wouldn't blow in.  Remember that one?
 
Flur'

From: Mathurin Kerbusso <mathurin at CALONSOUND.INFO>
Date: April 28, 2010 12:35:03 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene wrote:
<<< We are getting a new (used) tent for the children and it comes with
out stakes (all poles etc included.)  So what is the best, least
expensive for good iron period stakes? >>>

If you are going to Lilies I would recommend buying cheap stakes at
Walmart for now, then seeing what is available from the merchants at the War.
-- 
Mathurin

From: Ashir Baatarsaikhan <ashir_baatarsaikhan at YAHOO.COM>
Date: April 28, 2010 12:54:52 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

I know phoenix steel is selling iron tent stakes for $4 a stake or $35 for 10 which includes a leather bag to put them in. Their website is below.

http://phoenixsteelllc.com/

Ashir

--- On Wed, 4/28/10, Mathurin Kerbusso <mathurin at CALONSOUND.INFO> wrote:
Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene wrote:
> We are getting a new (used) tent for the children and it comes with
> out stakes (all poles etc included.)  So what is the best, least
> expensive for good iron period stakes?

If you are going to Lilies I would recommend buying cheap stakes at
Walmart for now, then seeing what is available from the merchants at the
War.
-- 
Mathurin

From: Michael L Wilson <mlw2 at WUSTL.EDU>
Date: April 28, 2010 1:21:05 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

If you have access to a smithy, there's the DIY solution.  Mild steel in 3/8" square works out to about 75 cents/stake from the steel mills in St Louis.  (That's assuming a decent volume, not individual lengths.)  I suspect that junker rebar is even cheaper.  Add your fuel and time, of course.

-Francis Bean

From: Avraham <avraham at EVERESTKC.NET>
Date: April 28, 2010 4:53:54 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

Big nails and washers from Home Depot work well.
Avraham
===================
Rosamistica Tomacelli de Greene wrote:
> We are getting a new (used) tent for the children and it comes with
> out stakes (all poles etc included.)  So what is the best, least
> expensive for good iron period stakes?

If you are going to Lilies I would recommend buying cheap stakes at
Walmart for now, then seeing what is available from the merchants at the War.
--
Mathurin

From: Nancee <nancee at MERMAID.HOMEIP.NET>
Date: April 28, 2010 6:40:24 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

Instead of washers, Hirsch and I have sections of hose. You cut a 4 or 5 inch section of heater hose then drill a hole through the side (all the way through and out the other side like so -o-  ) and ram the nail into the hole (use a drill bit that will achieve a tight fit). The final product is shaped like a T. The hose stays in place, and it does a better job of holding the rope.

Magda
===========
On Apr 28, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Avraham wrote:
<<< Big nails and washers from Home Depot work well.
Avraham >>>
    
This is what I was going to recommend, and am currently using. This is the easiest to do, although it would be good to figure out a good way to attach the washers to the nails.  The galvanizing may keep you from brazing or welding them together. I don't know. I still need to get a welding setup.

Once I've got a forge make, I've also thought that making a bunch of stakes from reibar would also be a good way to work on my blacksmithing skills.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
   Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas 

From: Ted Eisenstein <alban at SOCKET.NET>
Date: April 28, 2010 6:37:18 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

<<< This is what I was going to recommend, and am currently using. This is the easiest to do, although it would be good to figure out a good way to attach the washers to the nails. >>>

No need to get all fancy-like; just have enough of both and extras, and something to carry'em in - a cloth bag with a tie/draw string I found to be quite sufficient.

Alban

From: Roberta Lauderdale <bertlaud at COMCAST.NET>
Date: April 28, 2010 10:22:53 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

I haven't had a problem with the washers coming off the nails.  If you really want them to be fixed in place, try a bead of silicone calk around the nail just below the washer.

Hertha

From: amy matlock <amy.matlock at GMAIL.COM>
Date: April 28, 2010 11:36:16 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

My biggest complaint about the big-ole-nails-n-washers setup is that they can be more difficult to dig out of the ground when it's time to pack up (though, they're probably less likely to stub your toe -- I guess it's a trade-off) than the shepherds crook style. (I don't have any experience with the hose technique.) The nails, however you "cap" them, do have the advantage of not requiring gobs of heat and a fair amount of pounding to produce them. I bartered for mine. (Thank you Francis!)

Just my two pfennig,
Liesl Gelücken

From: Alric the tall <baronalric at YAHOO.COM>
Date: April 29, 2010 9:21:40 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

On Apr 28, 2010, at 4:53 PM, Avraham wrote:
> Big nails and washers from Home Depot work well.
> Avraham

This is what I was going to recommend, and am currently using. This is the easiest to do, although it would be good to figure out a good way to attach the washers to the nails.  The galvanizing may keep you from brazing or welding them together. I don't know. I still need to get a welding setup.
===========

If you have spare scraps of leather you can make a small hole in the leather and slide it on the stake after the washer.  As long as the hole in the leather is not to large it will hold the washer in place.
They will wear out occasionally but are easy to replace.

Alric 

From: Miriam von Schwarzwald <miriamvonschwarzwald at GMAIL.COM>
Date: April 29, 2010 2:07:38 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

I prefer the hook kind of stakes... they are MUCH easier to get out of
the ground after a week of camping. I got my newest ones from Golden
Boar Armory (Grimr up in Flynthill). He delivered them to me at lilies
last year. Previously I had some from Thorvik Crafts... purchased at
Lilies the year before. Both sets are very nice for a pavilion like
mine and easier to use than the original nails I bought for it. I have
a 13ft round pavilion that uses roughly 34 tent stakes. Although they
are not nice drunk traps and will catch unsuspecting toes and dresses.

Miriam von Schwarzwald

From: "Niewoehner, Hugh" <Hugh.Niewoehner at FLIGHTSAFETY.COM>
Date: April 29, 2010 7:37:05 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

Brazing, etc. is overkill.  The caulk works but the since you're going to be at the hardware store wander over to the plumbing section and buy a foot or two of plastic tubing which fits snugly over the spike.  Put the washer on then a 1/2" piece of tubing.  This has the added effect of giving a rubber surface for your guy ropes to rub against rather than the steel.  

As for extraction, I hit them once from two directions, put the claw of my hammer under the edge of the washer and pull straight out.  

The spikes will drive into pretty much any soil type though they don't hold as well as the flat sided or V shaped pegs in soft sandy soils.

	Damon

From: john heitman <gottskrieger at GMAIL.COM>
Date: April 29, 2010 8:52:07 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] tent stakes

And the one thing nobody has mentioned is good old fashioned WOOD
stakes. Easy to make, and if it breaks off in the ground at the end of
the event, you just pound it in further and walk away.

Historical Trivia:  When the Royal Pavilion was first set up, Rolf had
given us circus tent stakes.  Yep, those 36" long, 4" top diameter
monsters!  Had to use a full size 10# sledge to drive them in.  Set in
right, it was one of three tents left standing after the proverbial
Pennsic Storm in its debut war.

I think it was designed to stay down by having the stakes weigh twice
as much as the tent itself.

Franz

On Thu, Apr 29, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Ted Eisenstein <alban at socket.net> wrote:
My biggest complaint about the big-ole-nails-n-washers setup is that they can be more difficult to dig out of the ground when it's time to pack up (though, they're probably less likely to stub your toe -- I guess it's a trade-off) than
the shepherds crook style. (I don't have any experience with the hose technique.)

Double-headed nails. They do make such things: I first ran across them when I was helping out at the tech/back-stage stuff at my college's theater department. They were used to hold scenery together, and then make it easier to take the scenery apart for later storage and/or use; the double-headed bits
meant you could nail them in only so far (first head), and then pull them out easily (second head).

....of course, you'd still stub your toe - so don't go barefoot during a camping event.

Alban

From: "Stephanie Cohen" <olga0714 at sbcglobal.net>
Date: May 8, 2010 10:41:15 AM CDT
To: <StefanliRous at AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Rings for Ropes

Sorry I got distracted and never responded to your question, Stefan. 
 
Sure, you can probably find rings at any hardware store, and certainly at Tandy… it’s just a matter of not paying through the nose… J
 
I found this webpage that looks like a very fair price for 1.5” rings:  http://cdwplus.com/singleOrings.html
 
I’m sure there are others, but that’s just a very quick Google…
 
Olga

From: Kirk Poore <kirk at MEDIEVALOAK.COM>
Date: June 30, 2010 7:05:42 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Anyone selling a tent?

<<< Liriel
oh, and no matter the tent, get good stakes ! >>>

Master Danner (Danr?  Whatever) at http://www.irontreeworks.com/ sells good stakes.  And he sells them both at Lilies and at Pennsic.

Kirk

From: Tina Michael <tinabetta at gmail.com>
Date: April 29, 2011 12:22:51 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] New 10x20 garage pavillions for $85 at Walmart

Fence rail works well for tent poles, when I made ours that is what I used
on the inside, and the cost is minimal. They even have the sleeves that
connect two sections for strength and they will cut the lengths for you at
the store. Sarran and I got really creative when we enlarged the tent, we
used the bolted connecters to make a cross bar and a clothes rack between
the 2 main poles. Because it is all made to fit together it is very sturdy
and will withstand even the winds of Battlemoor.

 Come and visit our camp at Castellan and you can see what we have done
with it. Have a cocktail when you come by!

Tina

Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:20:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marybeth Lavrakas <katrous at yahoo.com>
To: Virginia Di Battista <vdriscoll at gmail.com>,
	Atlantia at seahorse.atlantia.sca.org
Subject: Re: [MR] Question about Tentsmiths and Panther Primitives

From: Virginia Di Battista <vdriscoll at gmail.com>:
<<< Has anyone purchased canvas from TentSmiths and then the pole set-up from
Panther?

This was a suggestion that I received, but I'm worried about the
measurements that Tent Smiths provide for their poles.  How close are they?

We're planning for a 14' x 14' center pole Marquee.  Since Tentsmiths seam
engineers all of their seams I would rather go with them.  I know I can get
a seam engineered tent from Panther, but it would actually cost more to get
the entire package from them.

Simona dell'Amore >>>

Wait until you have the actual tent before ordering poles. Tentsmiths sent me 
walls that require 6 ft 3 inch poles (as I recall, in the order stage they tell 
you "about 6 feet...)

What I did was buy the center pole from them, sleeved, and then made my own 
perimeter poles. 

I've owned tents from both vendors, btw, and I am a die hard Tentsmiths fan now.

Kateryn Rous

From the fb "Better SCA Camping" group:

Isabelle LaFar 
Super cheap & easy tent poles:
For perimeter poles, buy 2x2 lumber and cut it to the length you need. They are sold in 8' lengths, usually around $2 each. Get some 3.5" (or longer if you can find them) galvanized nails, something pretty sturdy. Hammer the ends against the sidewalk or other concrete surface to blunt the point. Be careful not to bend the nail. Hammer the nail into the top of the pole, leaving about 1.5" to 2" sticking out. Voila, you've got a perimeter pole that will get you through an event. When you have more time, pull out the nail, drill a pilot hole and hammer in length of 3/8" rod. You want it to go into the pole at least 2-3 inches and stick out of the pole at least 1.5" to 2". That should last you several years.

For your center pole, buy a stick of 2x4 lumber and cut it to what you need. 2x4 is sold in 8', 10' 12' and 16' lengths. If your tent has a grommet at the peak and requires a pin, you might be able to get by with the nail but you're better off buying the 3/8" rod stock and cutting a piece about 18" long. Pilot hole about 4" deep, hammer it in but leave about 14" sticking out. That's all there is to that.

The purpose for such a tall pin on the center pole is this: wind can lift up the roof of your tent. If your pin is too short, the wind will lift the roof right off the pin so it can come back down again...but the pin will make a new grommet hole without the grommet. Avoid a tear in your roof by making the pin tall enough. If your tent roof doesn't have the grommet at the peak, then your tent is a different design and you probably dont' need a pin at all. 
April 9 at 12:23am

Amy Cooper 
We use lengths of fiberglass rod rather than nails. Pre-drill the hole at the top so they are basically friction fit. We've used this style on our wall tent and our big oval. Splicing the long poles is a little trickier and more critical.
April 9 at 5:42am

Dali O'Ryan 
I use 8- or 10-inch lag screws, which have about 4 inches of thread at the bottom, then a smooth shaft, and are topped by a hex head. I drill a pilot hole, then screw in the lag screw until the threads are inside the wood. This leaves about 4-6 inches sticking up to go through grommets and such. I also cut off the hex head top and grind it down to make it smooth so it doesn't snag.
April 9 at 7:36am

Megan Sonday
7/6/15
Several of the stake loops have rotted/ ripped on our canvas wall tent. Any tips or tricks for replacing them?

Fjorlief InHaga 
Not sure it counts as a tip/trick, but when I put stake loops on the geteld I made, I sewed strips of folded and stitched canvas as loops onto a somewhat larger square of canvas, and then sewed that canvas square onto the tent proper. that has the effect of distributing the pull of the stake across a wider area. Then, and this is also important, I made a small sturdy rope loop that went through the canvas loop (like a ring around a chain), and that is what I actually put the stake through. By doing that, the actual wear mostly happens on the rope loop, which is infinitely easier to replace than the canvas. Hope some of this is useful to you... and good luck

Let me know if more details would be helpful, and I can either hunt down a photo, or make a sketch for you. The canvas I used was pretty heavy artist canvas, I was able to sew it on my home sewing machine but had to get larger than usual needles

The other important thing is to not just sew things down in one single spot or line... when I sew the loops onto the canvas squares, I sew each end down in a square, then sew across the square from corner to corner in an X; I sew the loop ends next to each other instead of on top of each other. And when I sew the larger square down, I sew around the edge, and then about a half in in from the edge again...

Larry Jones
7/18/15
Alright one of my friends told me about "Dead Blow" mallets? He said they are the bees knees etc when it comes to hammer etc. Anyone here used them with tent spikes etc?

Sheila Marshall 
yes! They work great for tent stakes.

K. Ann Seeton 
Ah what is it? Where do you find one?
July 18 at 8:52am

Larry Jones 
They have them at Home Depot etc. Basically it's a polyurethane hammer filled with buckshot so when you hammer a spike in it doesn't send the shockwave back up your arm.

Larry Jones 
It's not super common but it's also not hyper exotic. Wally world has some too. 
http://mobile.walmart.com/search/dead%20blow%20hammer

K. Ann Seeton 
are these good on metal tent stakes and plastic ones?
July 18 at 4:10pm

Larry Jones 
Yes

Norman Moss 
Dead blow hammers are available in most locations that sell hand tools. They come in a variety of configurations and face materials. Poly, Nylon, Steel, and may have shaped faces as well. They even come in a ball peen version.

They come in a variety of weights for different purposes. 

The plastic faced versions can have specialty faces made. One example would be sphecrical come in handy for armouring. Cross peen is also somewhat common and can be handy for armoring.
July 18 at 10:49pm

Melanie Black 
I was at harbor freight Saturday. Just FYI a deadblow hammer costs about twice an equivalent weight one handed sledge costs.
8/10/15

Melanie Black 
If you have some spare armor thickness leather, buy a sledge, and make a couple "pockets" to lace over the face. It will protect the stakes, look more period than a blaze orange deadblow hammer, and will not wear out as fast.

Larry Jones 
I could care less what the hammer looked like that I used to pound the stakes in with at the beginning of and event and after using this at Pennsic it's magic. It doesn't matter how much leather you put over the face you can't ignore the laws of physics and these awesome hammers keep the shock from traveling up your arm and that's all I care about. Makes pounding stakes much more pleasant.

Bartholomew Hightower
October 18 at 11:02am
Another useful tent-related thing I do is to make a stake box for each tent/fly. They are easily made from a length of #2 pine 1x10 on a table saw with a crosscut sled. Six panels, two hinges, a hasp, two lengths of rope, and a little bench time with a drill/driver and some grabber screws are all that is needed for this project. I made eight of them in one afternoon for all my tents and a few of my friend's tents. Modern hardware is shown here, but more decorative embellishments can be had on the web. Keeping the stakes in boxes make inventory easier, allows me to lend a tent and be assured that the borrower has the right number of stakes, keeps me from having to lug a heavy bucket o stakes around, and removes the iron porcupine from my trailer, where it could come in contact with all that delicate canvas.

Isabelle LaFar 
Thanks! How many stakes does it hold?

Bartholomew Hightower 
I usually have 20 in each box, because that is how many stakes I need. 25 would be easy. 30 would be pushing it.

Georg Von Stauffenberg 
If you don't want to build it ammo boxes (not the one for small arms) can be used when you can find them.
October 18 at 1:12pm

Lisa Wiser 
Great idea. I used a tool bag to hold my stakes, ropes, and tools because my wall tent doesn't need as many stakes. Not "period" but easier for me to handle.
October 18 at 4:00pm

Melanie Black 
I have a canvas tote bag from REI I put my stakes and hammer in.

Aoi Bea 
old military duffel here

From the fb "SCA Period Encampment" group;

Michael Evans
July 31
Question about pavillion ropes. What distance from your pavillion do you spike your stakes down? I have been placing mine 4ft away from the tent. I read somewhere that the distance should be at least as tall as the tent's wall for maximum security. However, I have heard that some groups place theirs only 2 or 3 ft from their tents to save space. What say you? (I plan to cross post this to the main SCA list as well so sorry for the cross posting)

Ashlyn Noble 
We do about two feet out.
July 31 at 9:02am

Galen Mize 
sometimes it depends, not on the hight of the wall, but the length of the top. my 20x20 is pegged at 5 feet from the pole for maximum hold
July 31 at 9:25am

Tiffany Brown 
I'm not sure what applies to period pictures, and i'll settle for a closer footprint to save space, but when I was setting up old WWII tents in guides, we were taught to make the guy ropes an extension of the roofline of a tent when they were roof guys. We were taught 1m (3ft) for the guys on a ridgepole, but I think it was specific to the tent height - it gave a nice about 60 degree angle between ground and rope i think.
July 31 at 11:04am

D.j. James 
I would concur with Galen except I would say the height of the top and the ratio of ropes to height. A short tent that is seam engineered can get away with a tighter set than a tall tent with side poles on a 4 or 5 foot center. For my seam engineered marquee with a standard 8/12 pitch I won't go less than half the height of the sidewalls unless I am well sheltered or very confident of good weather.
July 31 at 11:17am

Lynette Nusbacher 
At least 3m, preferably 4 or 5.
July 31 at 3:34pm

Diamante DaMagenta 
I drive my stakes in at the very base of the walls on a steep inwards angle, and tie-down the roof canopy to those. It secures the roof and walls all at once and no guywires to trip over.
July 31 at 5:43pm

Carrie Bear 
That I'm going to try.
August 1 at 12:12am

Vinnie Murdock 
For what a period pavilion costs - my advice is to plant those stakes as far out as you possibly can. The further away from the tent they are, then stronger the ropes will be. Period.
September 12 at 11:55pm

From the fb "Better SCA Camping" group:

Gamhain MacCoinneach
October 18 at 3:42pm · Philadelphia, PA
12" masonry spikes as tent stakes for a pavillion.
Anyone had luck with this approach? Don't have time or desire to heat / bend rebar.

Vernon Peach 
Use them all the time. Two things to pick up before you use them. Fender washers make sure the rope does not slip off the spikes. Something to pull them out the ground as they can be a pain to pull.
October 18 at 3:46pm

Gamhain MacCoinneach 
Didn't even think of the washers, thanks!
October 18 at 3:47pm

Steve Montgomery 
Agreed on both. I use a 36" prybar with the notch ground bigger to grab the spikes.
October 18 at 4:12pm

Joel Mikesell 
Paint the top of the washers bright orange so they show in dirt and grass even at night. The paint will chip off over time, but who cares. Will probably need a new fender washer by then anyway
October 18 at 4:26pm

Mary 'Mobi' Bader Montgomery 
Something I keep planning to do, but forget. Take a piece of hefty vinyl tubing that fits snugly over your spike. Cut it into more or less 1/2" lengths. Slide your washer onto the spike. Slide the plastic bit up the spike so it holds the washer securely against the head of the spike. You won't have to constantly re-washer your spikes, and the washer is always in the right position.
October 19 at 2:25am

Dukeflieg Sca 
I use them all the time, too. Keep a few spare for cross spiking in marginal ground.
October 19 at 2:26am

Joel Watkins 
Cover the washer with bright colored duct tape, then put it on the stake. Hi vis, and won't slip off when you are trying to get them hammered in
October 20 at 5:53pm

Pixie Cearbhaill Hearn 
I just wrap a length of rope around them to pull them out- works great, and doesn't weight much :)

Woody Hendrick 
To keep the washers Vernon suggested in place use a 1/2 inch long tigon tubing. It is better than welding to keep. Them in place.
October 18 at 4:36pm

Melanie Black 
I just wrap a little duct tape under them. A layer or two is enough to keep the washers from sliding. I used safety orange tape so people dont trip on them, and i don't leave any behind on accident.
October 18 at 7:53pm

Woody Hendrick 
I tried the duct tape method. It did not last. I have the tigon for over 30 years without a single lost.
October 18 at 8:01pm

Dukeflieg Sca 
I just keep a lot of spare washers.

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