Title: tents-weather-msg
Subject: How various tents have held up in bad weather.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: tent, pavilion, weather, style, durability

tents-weather-msg - 8/19/12

How various tent styles have fared in bad weather.

NOTE: See also the files: pavilions-msg, tent-setup-msg, tent-fabrics-msg, p-tents-msg, tent-alt-msg, tent-care-msg, tent-ps-msg, yurts-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs)
Subject: Re: (those darn )viking tents
Organization: Xerox Corporation, Webster NY
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 1995 17:21:30 GMT

hendle1 at aol.com (Hendle 1) writes:
> A wedge tent is a tent set up with two poles at the ends with just the
> canvas itself and two ropes supporting it. A Viking tent utilizes a
> ridgepole, two angled supports at each end, usually topped by carved
> dragonheads, a support across the entrances front and back connecting the
> foot of each of the angled supports and a support running on each side
> from the front foot to the back. The whole point of the Viking tents,
> beyond the supposed beginnings as a sail and five oars, was that it could
> be lifted as a complete unit from onboard to shore and back again without
> disassembly. And that is one of the advantages of it in our camping
> experience today...and unlike a dome tent it doesn't roll away in a big
> gust.

Um, actually : ) We had a viking tent in our camp one year at 
Pennsic that *did* roll away in a big gust.  Landed upside
down in a neighboring camp on top of a gear tent.  Left
the lady's stuff sitting in the middle of the camp
getting wet.  About the only damage it sustained was one of
the carved beasties on the top broke off.  The gear tent, other
than being squashed, was okay.  We were all very happy that it 
hadn't landed on a tent with someone inside.

When she found out what happened (and after the initial shock),
her first comment was along the lines of "I asked him if it
should be staked down and he said no!"

Orianna

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ederd at bcstec.ca.boeing.com (Dani Eder)
Subject: Re: tents blowing away was: (those darn )viking tents
Organization: The Boeing Company
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 20:45:04 GMT

ojid.wbst845 at xerox.com (Orilee Ireland-Delfs) writes:
>Um, actually : ) We had a viking tent in our camp one year at 
>Pennsic that *did* roll away in a big gust.  Landed upside
...
>When she found out what happened (and after the initial shock),
>her first comment was along the lines of "I asked him if it
>should be staked down and he said no!"

Being a mundane engineer and an SCA tent maker, here is some stuff
about tents and stakes:

A 50 mile per hour wind can generate a force of about 10 pounds
per square foot.  For most tents this is about 10 times the weight
of the tent itself.  Thus unless you have a large amount of gear
weighing the tent down AND the tent sheds wind forces easily, your
tent can blow away if not staked down.  Even if your tent is staked
down, if not staked properly, the wind can lift the tent enough for
the tent poles to fall down.

Tent stakes use the resistance of the earth to maintain position,
so depending on how soft the earth is you may need to use bigger
stakes on a given site.  My rule of thumb is if I can pound my
normal stakes (3/8" x 12" spikes, these look like big nails) in
with less than 4 hammer blows, I need to use the big stakes
(1/2" x 18" rebar).  

On my oval pavilion, the main poles have a 12" dowel sticking up
through the canvas (that holds the pennants), so the wind can't
lift the canvas enough to slip off pole.  I also made a 6"x12"
plywood base for the main poles that (a) keeps them from sinking
into soft ground, which would loosen guy rope tension, and (b)
lets me put stakes into the base of the main poles so they can't
shift sideways and fall down (even if someone runs into them).

In addition to the main guy ropes (3 to each main pole) that keep
the poles in place, I have stake loops every 3 feet along the 
base of the tent.  Usually I use half of them (12 out of 24).
If you figure that under normal circumstances each stake will resist
100 lb of line tension (based on how hard it seems to pull them
out), that I have 20 stakes total in the ground (6 guy rope, 12
around the base, and 2 in the main poles), then I can resist
2000 lb of wind load.  Since my tent is 9 ft high and about 22
wide on average, a 50 mph wind can generate 2000 lb of force, so
that is just enough staking (if a serious stormis coming, I put in
more stakes).

At 25th year celebration, the Ansteorran winds were high enough
to bend one of the metal frame pieces, but the stakes held up.

So my rule of thumb would be 1 12" spike for each 10 square feet
of side area under normal circumstances, with more for soft ground
or really nasty weather.

Daniel

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns)
Subject: Re: (those darn )viking tents
Organization: The National Capital FreeNet, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 1995 18:30:13 GMT

> And that is one of the advantages of it in our camping
> experience today...and unlike a dome tent it doesn't roll away in a big
> gust.

Dome tents roll away?  Not in my experience:

July 8, 1994, 11:00 p.m., Autocrat's Day Off, Skraeling Althing.
A tornado and torrential rains ripped through our campsite.

Scorecard:
   TENT TYPE                                   LASTED
   Big Circular Period Pavillion               2 seconds
   Small Viking A-Frame                        Crushed by falling tree
   A-Frame Dining Fly                          2 seconds
   Regular Frame Tent                          Several minutes
   6-Person Dome Tent (ours!)                  Stayed up and stayed put !!!

Luckily, no one was seriously hurt (not even the 16-year-old pinned under the
tree in her Viking tent).

The ability of a tent to stay UP in a high wind is a matter of aerodynamics and
flexibility.  My experience says, the wind can't get a grip on the round
contours of a dome tent and its shock-corded poles tensioned by the tent itself
make for excellent resilience against even the mightiest gusts.

Staying PUT is a matter of solid pegging which is partly materials (size,
strength and material of pegs and tent loops) and partly ground consistency
(obviously, dry sand is not going to hold pegs as well as good solid earth or
clay).  But, in general, the longer the peg, the better your chances.

Ask me if I want anything but a dome tent after THAT experience !!!
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*  SCA: Lady Isabella Oakwood         |                                     *
*       Barony of Skraeling Althing,  |      "I hear and I forget,          *
*       Ealdormere, Midrealm          |       I see and I remember,         *
*  MKA: Rebecca Cairns                |       I do and I understand."       *
*       Kanata, Ontario  Canada       |                 - Confucius.        *
*  NET: ab575 at FreeNet.carleton.ca     |                                     *
*---------------------------------------------------------------------------*

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: gl8f at fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl)
Subject: Re: (those darn )viking tents
Organization: Department of Astronomy, University of Virginia
Date: Fri, 7 Jul 1995 13:54:32 GMT

Rebecca Cairns <ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>Dome tents roll away?  Not in my experience:
>
>July 8, 1994, 11:00 p.m., Autocrat's Day Off, Skraeling Althing.
>A tornado and torrential rains ripped through our campsite.
>
>Scorecard:
>   TENT TYPE                                   LASTED
>   Big Circular Period Pavillion               2 seconds
>   Small Viking A-Frame                        Crushed by falling tree
>   A-Frame Dining Fly                          2 seconds
>   Regular Frame Tent                          Several minutes
>   6-Person Dome Tent (ours!)                  Stayed up and stayed put !!!

2 years ago at Novice Tourney in Danville, Virginia, a squall line of
thunderstorms hit the site. My 6-man dome tent was punched in by a
gust of wind: kind of like an umbrella being turned inside out. All of
my stuff was completely soaked, because the tent became a huge
rain-collector. We then knocked down the rest of our tents (that's
easy to do with a modern frame tent), and hid in our cars. Actually,
we left the pup tent up, and it survived.

So no, no tent is perfect in a storm, and dome tents can be done in by
a sufficiently mighty gust.

>Ask me if I want anything but a dome tent after THAT experience !!!

I now camp in my trusty elizabethan A-frame, thanks.

Gregory Blount

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: (those darn )viking tents
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 95 09:11:04 EDT

garvey at poohbear.cig.mot.com (Heather L. Garvey) writes:
> Rebecca Cairns <ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
> >Dome tents roll away?  Not in my experience:
> >
> >The ability of a tent to stay UP in a high wind is a matter of aerodynamics 
> >flexibility.  My experience says, the wind can't get a grip on the round
> >contours of a dome tent and its shock-corded poles tensioned by the tent its
> >make for excellent resilience against even the mightiest gusts.
> 
> During the big rainstorms last Pennsic, I was lying in my dome
> tent PRAYING it wouldn't go anywhere and all that happened was that
> I'd get whacked by the tent top every once in a while. (Yes, while lying down
> The tent folded over until it was flat against the ground and then
> sprung right back up. Scary until you get used to it. :))
> If you've got a dome tent staked right, it ain't a-goin' nowhere....
> 
> -- Maggie MacKenzie

Respected friends:
A properly staked A-frame tent, with all its structural members in
place (That's important- many people leave out things like the bottom end 
boards) can, and will, withstand gale force 8 winds. (I know- I once watched
a 30x15 "footprint" model do so.)
Then again, so will a _properly_ guy-roped and staked pavilion. The
problem is simply that most of us don't put them up properly; we especially 
tend to skimp on the wall stakes.
The latter problem is made worse by the shower-curtain-hook sides
too frequently seen on our SCAbomination "pavilions" -- Once those weak little
hooks let go the strongest pegs in the world won't save you. My pavilion top 
has doubled- canvas ties to hold the sides on. My one regret is not 
special-ordering it with the ties 1 foot apart instead of the standard 3.
However, if you frequently experience gale force 6 or higher winds,
you really should consider either complete-circumference side poles _with 
matching ties on the wall fabric_ - or bowing to the high-wind champions and
switching to a Yurt. They get winds on those steppes that would scare a
tornado.
If you already have a dome tent, you can reduce the inversions somewhat
by sewing extra guy loops to the outside of the rain fly, 2/3 of the way
up each rib, and then staking the resultant extra ropes far enough out so they
don't touch the fabric. Of course, this massively increases your "footprint".
Oh, well...
Above gale force six, nothing will save most sushades/awnings/
dining flys. Even if the pegs hold, the fabric doesn't. Good tip: drop the
fly, pull the pegs, add the ropes and pegs to your pavilion on the side the
storm is coming in from- but keep those pegs at least 3 feet from the old set.
Just those 4 extra ropes can make a critical differance.
And of course, you knew that you _never_ tie one tent's ropes to 
another tent's ropes, poles, or pegs... didn't you?
For sand, use corkscrew dog-chain anchors. For deep sand, use goat-
chain anchors. For either, double all ropes (staked seperately, of course)
and _never_ face a door to the wind.
...Can you tell I used to own a US Army hospital tent?

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: caradoc at neta.com (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: (those darn )viking tents
Date: 13 Jul 1995 09:22:23 GMT

ab575 at FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Rebecca Cairns) wrote:

<snip>

> July 8, 1994, 11:00 p.m., Autocrat's Day Off, Skraeling Althing.
> A tornado and torrential rains ripped through our campsite.
> 
> Scorecard:
>    TENT TYPE                                   LASTED
>    Big Circular Period Pavillion               2 seconds
>    Small Viking A-Frame                        Crushed by falling tree
>    A-Frame Dining Fly                          2 seconds
>    Regular Frame Tent                          Several minutes
>    6-Person Dome Tent (ours!)                  Stayed up and stayed put !!!

<snip>

I was in a two-man dome tent during the "Great Estrella Hurricane" a few
years back. I was awakened at some point during the storm by something wet
touching my face: the roof. The winds were blowing hard enough to force
the poles over so that the whole tent was flopped sideways like a muffin
cap, but the floor never left the ground. Yes, the domes will weather
storms if they're staked down properly, but best not keep anything in them
that requires headspace more than a few inches tall. Especially if the
items are fragile.

I weathered a windstorm out at the Baron's War in Tir Ysgithr in a 15'x15'
Tentmasters' "Mitred Corner Octagon" where more than one unstaked dome
tent took to the air, often with the owners belongings inside. The only
problem I found with the Tentmasters' tent was that I'd left the top two
corners of the door untied to let air circulate. A wind gust came through,
and "boomed" the walls of the tent, just like sails.

The stakes held, the poles held, the ropes held. When I arose in the
morning, all of the adjacent campsites looked like someone had come
through with a giant blender. Two dome tents had snapped their poles, and
several others had simply lost their seams, leaving erect frameworks of
fiberglass poles, but the tents had collapsed.

All in all, I prefer the Tentmasters' canvas: it'll stay up in darn near
any kind of weather, and you don't need to worry as much about the walls
touching your gear. The nylon tents tend to soak anything that comes into
the slightest contact with the walls.
-- 
caradoc at enet.net - John Groseclose - http://www.neta.com/~caradoc

From: sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: More onPeriod Tents
Date: 24 Aug 1996 21:52:26 GMT
Organization: Adelphi University, Garden City, NY

DRAGONS2 <dragons2 at algorithms.com> wrote:
>I have always been told that if I were to buy a pavilion that I should
>only buy a tentmaster.  The reasoning behind this, I have been told, is
>that their tents are practically the only ones left standing after bad
>storms.

This is surely something of an exaggeration.  The great majority of
tents were left standing after this year's storm, including all of the
homemade pavilions in our encampment.  In fact, the ones I've seen
blowing away tend to be modern tents.

>I would like to hear feedback from other pavilion owners. 
>What do you like and dislike about your pavilion, who's is it, what shape
>etc.  I originally was considering a rectangular one but was told the oval
>ones are better and easier to set up.  What is your opinion?  email me or
>post here for all to see.

Ours is an oval, 12' x 18'.  It has two center poles, no side poles,
and sixteen guy ropes.  Counting fabric, poles, finials, rope, thread,
etc.  it cost us somewhere under $500 (I haven't added it up
precisely).  It fit, along with a week's worth of food, clothing,
musical instruments, etc. into (and on top of) a Ford Escort. It also,
of course, cost us many hours of design, cutting, sewing, splicing,
etc, and now we know a lot more about tents than we did before.

                                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
--
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu
                                         http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/
                                        Math/CS Dept, Adelphi University

Date: Tue, 6 May 1997 14:57:10 -0400
From: Dana Theis <yllaria at compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu" <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: French Double Bell Tents

I'd like to put in a plug for the double bell tents as well.  After the
first night of "big winds" at GWWI, my daughter's brand-new double bell was
the only thing left standing in our encampment, and it continued to stand
up just fine the rest of the event.  I'm now lusting after one like it.

Yllaria

Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 11:32:32 MST
From: "Trish Kvamme" <ladyoftherose at hotmail.com>
Subject: ANST - pavilion flying and other summer sports
To: Ansteorra at ansteorra.org

I just wanted to take a moment here to brag on my newest apprentice Lady 
Marguerite of Spinning Winds Pavillions.

After the WeatherLord storm this weekend, all of the tents she has made on 
site were still standing, and everything inside the ones in my camp were 
dry.

I am proud of you girl!

Larissa

From: Bree Flowers <evethejust at gmail.com>
Date: April 28, 2011 5:28:35 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] canvas shelter alternatives - was - Re: New 10x20 garage pavillions for $85 at Walmart

My tent is like a rock in bad weather. Stake it good and get good
strong poles and a period pavilion will serve you well. At one event
my tent stood its ground while a yurt flipped (the owner was dumb
enough to forget all his stakes at home but one and thought that it he
used just one that might do the trick) and a larger a-frame came down
when the ridgepole snapped. The metal stakes at the top of my poles
were seriously bent (nothing a good hammer and anvil can't fix) but
otherwise my stuff was dry, the canvas held firm and I was nice and
safe. Now I will admit that with no floor, water can rush through it
like a river, but I know I'll have a roof over my head.

~Eve

On Apr 28, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Bree Flowers wrote:
<<< I have the Big Wedge tent. It's lovely to camp in, but would not serve
well for merchanting as it is hard to walk anywhere but right up the
middle.

I'm hoping with the addition of the sunshade that I can kick some of
our "stuff" out (chairs, tables, coolers) and have enough room for the
whole family in the tent until the kids are big enough to sleep on
their own, then we'll have to get another wedge.

~Eve >>>

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 8:58 AM, Hellsgate Web Minister
<daria at hellsgate-sca.org> wrote:
<< Eve ~
Which of their tents do you have?
I have been debating their 14x14 wall tent for merchanting.

I think the feast gear a friend of mine make will go over well & a period pavilion would just add to the display.

DBaroness Daria Riley
Hellsgate Web Minister
http://www.hellsgate-sca.org >>>

From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: April 28, 2011 10:00:56 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] canvas shelter alternatives - was - Re: New 10x20 garage pavillions for $85 at Walmart

<< Some years back at a Steppes Warlord, we had a major rain/wind storm come through (no actual tornados, although the wind was strong enough that the tornado siren on site was going off.) *Every* popup and garage pavilion around the listfield was destroyed, the period-style pavilions all survived. I expect part of that is because the period pavilions all had lots of stakes and guy ropes, and part is because wood poles are more likely than either steel or aluminum to flex a bit in high wind.

       -Tivar Moondragon >>

<<< Only problem I ever had at Steppes with my carport pavilion was trying to fold the cover in 20-30mph winds ;)

Otherwise, I keep it staked and roped when it's set-up. >>>

At that particular Warlord (so I was told) the winds were running 50+ mph. That's what was triggering the tornado siren. There was a black-and-yellow carport roof that ended up against one of the power poles near the listfield... about fifteen or twenty feet up, and bearing a strong resemblance to the sail on a viking ship.

       -Tivar Moondragon 

From: Chris Zakes <dontivar at gmail.com>
Date: April 28, 2011 8:07:12 PM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] canvas shelter alternatives - was - Re: New 10x20 garage pavillions for $85 at Walmart

At 05:28 PM 4/28/2011, you wrote:
<<< My tent is like a rock in bad weather. Stake it good and get good
strong poles and a period pavilion will serve you well. At one event
my tent stood its ground while a yurt flipped (the owner was dumb
enough to forget all his stakes at home but one and thought that if he
used just one that might do the trick) and a larger a-frame came down
when the ridgepole snapped. The metal stakes at the top of my poles
were seriously bent (nothing a good hammer and anvil can't fix) but
otherwise my stuff was dry, the canvas held firm and I was nice and
safe. Now I will admit that with no floor, water can rush through it
like a river, but I know I'll have a roof over my head.

~Eve >>>

Some years back at a Steppes Warlord, we had a major rain/wind storm come through (no actual tornados, although the wind was strong enough that the tornado siren on site was going off.) *Every* popup and garage pavilion around the listfield was destroyed, the period-style pavilions all survived. I expect part of that is because the period pavilions all had lots of stakes and guy ropes, and part is because wood poles are more likely than either steel or aluminum to flex a bit in high wind.

       -Tivar Moondragon

Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 18:20:02 +1000
From: Braddon Giles <braddongiles at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Our ancestors weren't stupid
To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list"
	<lochac at lochac.sca.org>

On 30 April 2011 13:27, Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> wrote:
> Period tents do have a good record of standing up to bad weather...

Anyone who wants me to rave about how good Maud's Yurt is, or how well
made it was by Buz Daviydov, then contact me privately. Yurts rock. I
got as far East as Persia this year, and I might get fully Mongolian
for next Festival.

Giles.

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	tents-weather-msg	Page  of