Latin-msg - 2/4/08

Learning Latin. Some basics. WWW course. Differences between Medieval and Classical Latin.

NOTE: See also the files: Latin-online-art, mottoes1-msg, languages-msg, literacy-msg, universities-msg, teaching-msg, Hist-English-lnks, Ital-Phrases-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Re: Latin Lovers?
Date: 3 Feb 92 
From: gorilla at cats.ucsc.edu (Joe Mama)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: University of California, Santa Cruz

Unto the good folk of the Rialto does John send his regards.

I have come across a piar of quaint books, entitled _Latin_For_All_Occasions
and _Latin_For_Even_More_Occasions which have all manner of obscure and
witty quotes in them, and their latin translations.

Wonderful stuff for .sigs

John
##################
John Ravenscroft of Glastonbury
Scribe of the College of St. David's            Chris Arnold
Barony of Darkwood,				gorilla at cats.ucsc.edu 
Principality of the Mists,
West Kingdom.

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
CC: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:35:18 -0500
Subject: Learning Latin

Antoine said:
>I've been interested in learning some latin.  My French is doing 
>pretty well, but I figure need Latin to even begin to be well 
>rounded.  I've picked up a couple of beginner Latin textbooks and 
>have been going through them, but they don't help with pronunciation 
>and I can only imagine how badly I butcher things.  (Although I 
>suppose it wouldn't be TOO bad if I spoke Latin with a French accent. 
>Do you have any suggestions as to how someone could reasonably begin 
>to deal with Latin when they are out in the real world?  I know I'm 
>not the only one who would be interested in this and your advice 
>would be valuable.

Heilsa, Antoine.

First, as to the pronounciation of Latin, it is really very simple.  All
vowels are pronounced using standard Continental pronunciation... just like
French, in other words. 

Long Vowels are indicated in Latin texts by a bar over the letter.  Long
Vowels are pronounced as follows:

long a = "a" as in "father"
long e = "e" as in "they"
long i = "i" as in "machine"
long o = "o" as in "hole"
long u = "u" as in "rude"

Short vowels are pronounced as follows:
short a = first "a" as in "aha"
short e = "e" as in "net"
short i = "i" as in "this"
short o = "o" as in "domain"
short u = "u" as in "full"

Diphthong pronounciation:
ae = "i" as in "like"
au = "ou" as in "round"
oe = "oi" as in "boil"
ei = "ei" as in "vein"
eu = short e + oo
ui is almost = "ui" in "ruin"

Consonant pronunciation:
c is always hard, like "k"
g is alwys hard, as in "go"
j = "y" as in "yes"
p is always as the "p" in "spin"
qu = "qu" as in "quick"
s is always as the "s" in "say"
t is always as the "t" in "stop"
x is always like "ks"
bs is pronounced "ps"
bt is pronounced "pt"
v is proncounced as "w"
ch is always hard as the "ch" in "Christmas"
ph = "p" as in "put"
th = "t" as in "ten"

Accent:
All words of two syllables are accented on the first syllable.  Three or
more syllables mean that the accent will be on the next-to-last syllable in
the word.

Learning the Latin Language:
Learning Latin is much easier than learning any of the living Romance
languages, since over the years the rough edges have been worn off, leaving
a very regular language.  There are still some irregular verbs and such, but
most verbs and nouns follow regular rules.  To start, pick up almost any
first-year Latin text you can find.They all start off with basic grammar and
easy readings, and each chapter elaborates on further rules of grammar and
adds to vocabulary.  If you want to be proficient in Latin, plan on doing
lots of translations.  It is helpful to get assistance with checking your
translations from someone who knows the language fairly well... once you've
started, you'll probably want to take a basic Latin class at your local
college or junior college.  It is possbile to audit such a class, in many
instances.

Basic Knowledge of English Grammar a Necessity:
The biggest stumbling block for folks who I have tutored in Latin is the
fact that they have no idea of what the rules are for ENGLISH grammar.  If I
can't explain to you that the direct object takes the accusative case, it's
going to be a long row to hoe!  You must know what a subject is, or the
object of a preposition, or a direct object, or an adverb, etc.  In
addition, one of the biggest helps in being able to translate from English
into Latin is the now nearly unknown skill of sentence diagramming (if you
were in the phonetics generation, you have no idea whereof I speak).

So... check your used book stores and collegiate book stores and get an
introductory Latin text.  It's the best way to learn a beautiful and elegant
language.

Wassail,.

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 17:39:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Learning Latin

<snip>
>By the by, these days the pronoun cases are nomitive and objective, or at
>least they are in OK and AR--
>
>Kateryn Englishteacherdottir

The actual noun (and pronoun) cases are:
nominative (used for subject of sentence)
genitive (used to indicate possession)
dative (used for indirect objects)
accusative (used for the direct object and the object of some prepositions)
ablative (used for the object of some prepositions, also used to indicate
"the means by which something is done")

English doesn't change the form of the word for every possible use of the
noun, unlike most languages.  All five noun cases were once taught in
English grammar classes, but I'm afraid that the praxctice died out with the
demise of copperplate handwriting.  Sentence diagramming held on until the
late 1950's or maybe even the 60's in some places.  It is a sad commentary
on our educational system that most people don't learn English grammar until
they sart learning another language.

Wassail,
Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

From: Mike Baker <mbaker at rapp.com>
To: ansteorra
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 15:10:00 -0500
Subject: RE: Learning Latin

If I may offer a variation to Gunnora's excellent advice concerning the 
learning of Latin, I would note two or three items.

First, for a reading acquaintance with Latin it helps immensely if one first 
learns the ROOT-level meanings of English-language words which have derived 
from any of the "Romance" (i.e. Latin-derivative) languages.  (I've been 
tested at 40%-plus reading comprehension of French, Italian, and Portugese 
based upon my English vocabulary...)  Comprehension by this method is 
reduced for colloquialisms, but even there a little common sense -- and 
awareness of context -- help immensely.

Second, when haunting the used-book stores, keep your eyes out for high 
school Latin textbooks published pre-WW II.  I have a knowledge of 
self-taught Latin using a text that my great-aunt acquired in 1918...

Thirdly, it sometimes helps to have a choral background as well -- many of 
the Latin songs include both English lyrics and translations.

Fourthly, learn heraldic terminology. Hey, yet another benefit of 
associating with the SCA at more depth than the "costumed party" level!

As in learning many languages, learning at least a basic level of Latin *is* 
easier when you know your own native (European) language at a deeper level. 
Conversely, learning Latin will also increase your comprehension of English. 
A genuine positive feedback loop!

Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra
Mike C. Baker                      mbaker at rapp.com

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
To: ansteorra at eden.com
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 18:18:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Learning Latin

>Amr ibn Majid al-Bakri al-Amra states:
>>Fourthly, learn heraldic terminology. Hey, yet another benefit of 
>>associating with the SCA at more depth than the "costumed party" level!

>Stefan li Rous said:
>Huh? Why do you see this as a benefit to learning Latin? I thought most
>of the heraldic terms were French?

Heilsa, All!

        In general, I have found that knowing Latin helps one in expanding
one's English vocabulary, aids in learning medical terminology or legal
technical language, and can be a super help score-wise when taking the SAT.
I have never heard from anyone that knowing heraldry, medical terms, legal
terms, or English really helps all that much with learning Latin.

        On the other hand, a good Latin instructor will have the students
work up a list of derivitaves and cognates for their Latin vocabulary words.
If you know the Latin verb "jacere" means "to throw," then you can pretty
much guess at project, reject, inject, eject, etc.  This is why I strongly
urge parents to have your children take at least a single year of Latin...
it has been shown in several studies to increase SAT scores by an incredible
margin.

        I have heard others say that knowing Spanish or French aided them in
learning Latin.  I had Latin first, and can only say that I would *never*
have even passed my Spanish classes, much less done well in them, had I not
already had several years of Latin

        Learning Latin as an adult is an intellectual pursuit, pretty much,
and isn't particularly useful unless you are a medieval scholar.  Even then,
it takes several years of study, as first you have to learn classical Latin,
then you supplement that with Church Latin, which is a later form and not
quite as regular.  But if you can read Church Latin, a world of stuff
becomes available to you:  you can read medieval French and medieval
Italian, if you've got a dictionary to hand for strange words.  This was how
I was able to access the poems of Christine de Pisan.  I wouldn't say that I
am expert in medieval French, but I was able to read enough to be able to at
least get the flavor of Pisan's writings.

Wassail,
Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

From: zebee at zipper.zip.com.au (Zebee Johnstone)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Latin course available on the net
Date: 12 Nov 1996 06:04:08 GMT
Organization: Zip Internet Professionals Pty Ltd

The Brit newspaper "The Electronic Telegraph" is doing a 20 part latin
course via the web.

The ET is a webbed version of "The Telegraph" newspaper.

The home page is http://www.telegraph.co.uk

Once you have registered, you go to the "etcetera" section then
"lingua franca".  Currently it is at lesson 4, you can get the
previous ones by folloiwing the "last week's lingua franca" links.

The site is non-graphical-browser friendly :)

Silfren
-- 
Zebee Johnstone (zebee at zip.com.au

From: Fideli <jfideli at suffolk.lib.ny.us>
To: Mark Harris
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:53:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: X-Tra latin  101

>                    Important Latin Phrases . .
>
>  Die dulci fruere.
>    Have a nice day.
>
>  Si hoc signum legere potes, operis boni in rebus Latinus
>  alacribus et fructuosis potiri potes!
>    If you can read this sign, you can get a good job in the
>    fast-paced, high-paying world of Latin!
>
>  Sona si Latine loqueris.
>    Honk if you speak Latin.
>
>  Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum!
>    Don't you dare erase my hard disk!
>
>  Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput
>  tuum saxum immane mittam.
>    I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling
>    an enormous rock at your head.
>
>  Gramen artificiosum odi.
>    I hate Astroturf.
>
>  Furnulum pani nolo.
>    I don't want a toaster.
>
>  Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.
>    I think some people in togas are plotting against me.
>
>  Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo.
>    Don't call me, I'll call you.
>
>  Cave ne ante ullas catapultas ambules.
>    If I were you, I wouldn't walk in front of any catapults.
>
>  Canis meus id comedit.
>    My dog ate it.
>
>  Illiud Latine dici non potest.
>    You can't say that in Latin.
>
>  Vidistine nuper imagines moventes bonas?
>    Seen any good movies lately?
>
>  Nullo metro compositum est.
>    It doesn't rhyme.
>
>  Non curo. Si metrum non habet, non est poema.
>    I don't care. If it doesn't rhyme, it isn't a poem.
>
>  Fac ut gaudeam.
>    Make my day.
>
>  Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica
>  Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
>    Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt
>    and the plaid jacket!
>
>  Visne saltare? Viam Latam Fungosam scio.
>    Do you want to dance? I know the Funky Broadway.
>
>  Re vera, potas bene.
>    Say, you sure are drinking a lot.
>
>  Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!
>    May barbarians invade your personal space!
>
>  Utinam coniurati te in foro interficiant!
>    May conspirators assassinate you in the mall!
>
>  Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!
>    May faulty logic undermine your entire philosophy!
>
>  Radix lecti
>    Couch potato
>
>  Quo signo nata es?
>    What's your sign?
>
>  Spero nos familiares mansuros.
>    I hope we'll still be friends.
>
>  Mellita, domi adsum.
>    Honey, I'm home.
>
>  Tam exanimis quam tunica nehru fio.
>    I am as dead as the nehru jacket.
>
>  Ventis secundis, tene cursum.
>    Go with the flow.
>
>  Te precor dulcissime supplex!
>    Pretty please with a cherry on top!
>
>  Magister Mundi sum!
>    I am the Master of the Universe!
>
>  Fac me cocleario vomere!
>    Gag me with a spoon!
>
>  Te audire no possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
>    I can't hear you. I have a banana in my ear.
>
>  Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax
>  materiam possit materiari?
>     How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck
>     could chuck wood?
>
>  Nihil est--in vita priore ego imperator Romanus fui.
>     That's nothing--in a previous life I was a Roman Emperor.
>
>  Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.
>     Yes, that is a very large amount of corn.
>
>  Recedite, plebes! Gero rem imperialem!
>     Stand aside plebians! I am on imperial business.
>
>  Fac ut vivas.
>     Get a life.
>
>  Insula Gilliganis
>     Gilligan's Island

To: mark_harris at quickmail
Subject: Re: Latin-msg
From: becky_b at juno.com (Becky L Becker)
Date: Fri, 25 Apr 1997 18:58:45 EDT

Greetings,

I've been sharing the Latin phrases with my daughter, since she doesn't
live at home.

Her response to the Catapult and money phrase:

Meam pecuniam non dignum saxum est, praeterea tua catapulta posset ferire
non latus laterus horrenorum!

She says the grammar is probably incorrect, but it was an impromptu
response.  Translation:

My money is not worth the rock, besides, your catapult could not hit the
broad side of a barn!

Thought you might enjoy it.

Elsby MacKristinn of Ramsey

Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 18:45:37 -0600
To: "Carol Lindemann, Ph.D." <lindy at interport.net>
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
Subject: Latin Verb Forms
Cc: markh at risc.sps.mot.com

>Dear Gunnora Hallakarva
>Despite the long delay in response, I am still chewing this one over.
>In the forms, sero, serere, SEVI...
>What form is sevi- could it be past tense?
>Carol

Latin verbs are almost always listed by giving the principal parts of the
verb, which are:

Present Active (1st Person Singular)
Present Infinitive
Perfect Active (1st Person Singular)
Perfect Passive Participle

The reason being that in order to correctly conjugate the verb, you have to
know those forms, as the verb formation changes in those cases based on
those forms of the verb.

Hence:

1st Conjugation: porto, portarem portavi, portatum
2nd Conjugation: moneo, monere, monui, monitum
3rd Conjugation: duco, decere, duxi, ductum
3rd Conjugation (i-stem): capio, capere, cepi, captum
4th Conjugation: audio, audire, audivi, auditum

Then you have irregular verbs such as "to be": sum, esse, fui, futurus.

A full verb conjugation might look like this:

Principal Parts: porto, portarem portavi, portatum

I. ACTIVE
	A. Indicative
		1.Present
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: porto (I am carrying, I carry)
				2. 2nd person: portas (you are carrying, you carry)
				3. 3rd person: portat (he is carrying, he carries)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portamus (we are carrying, we carry)
				2. 2nd person: portatis (you are carrying, you carry)
				3. 3rd person: portant (they are carrying, they carry)
		2. Imperfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portabam (I was carrying)
				2. 2nd person: portabas (you were carrying)
				3. 3rd person: portabat (he was carrying)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portabamus (we were carrying)
				2. 2nd person: portabatis (you were carrying)
				3. 3rd person: portbant (they were carrying)
		3. Future
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portabo (I am carrying, I carry)
				2. 2nd person: portabis (you are carrying, you carry)
				3. 3rd persoon: portabit (he is carrying, he carries)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portabimus (we are carrying, we carry)
				2. 2nd person: portabitis (you are carrying, you carry)
				3. 3rd person: portbunt (they are carrying, they carry)
		4. Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portavi (I have carried)
				2. 2nd person: portavisti (you have carried)
				3. 3rd person: portavit (he has carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portavimus (we have carried)
				2. 2nd person: portavistis (you have carried)
				3. 3rd person: portaverunt (they have carried)
		5. Past Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portaveram (I had carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaveras (you had carried)
				3. 3rd person: portaverat (he had carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaveramus (we had carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaveratis (you had carried)
				3. 3rd person: portaverant (they had carried)
		6. Future Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portavero (I shall have carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaveris (you will have carried)
				3. 3rd person: portaverit (he will have carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaverimus (we shall have carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaveritis (you will have carried)
				3. 3rd person: portaverint (they will have carried)
	B. Subjunctive (used in subordinate clauses, translation varies)
		1.Present
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portem
				2. 2nd person: portes
				3. 3rd person: portet
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portemus
				2. 2nd person: portetis
				3. 3rd person: portent
		2. Imperfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portarem
				2. 2nd person: portares
				3. 3rd person: portaret
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaremus
				2. 2nd person: portaretis
				3. 3rd person: portarent
		3. Future - No Future Subjunctive
		4. Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portaverim
				2. 2nd person: portaveris
				3. 3rd person: portaverit 
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaverimus
				2. 2nd person: portaveritis
				3. 3rd person: portaverint
		5. Past Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portavissem
				2. 2nd person: portavisses
				3. 3rd person: portavisset
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaveramus
				2. 2nd person: portaveratis
				3. 3rd person: portaverant
		6. Future Perfect - No Subjunctive Future Perfect
	C. Imperative
		1. Present
			a. Singular: porta (carry)
			b. Plural: portate (carry)
		2.Imperfect - No Imperative Imperfect
		3. Future
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Singular
				2. 2nd person: portato (you shall carry)
				3. 3rd person: portato (he shall carry)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Plural
				2. 2nd person: portatote (you shall carry)
				3. 3rd person: portanto (they shall carry)
		4. Perfect - No Imperative Perfect
		5. Past Perfect - No Imperative Past Perfect
		6. Future Perfect - No Imperative Future Perfect
	D. Infinitive
		1. Present: portare (to carry)
		2. Imperfect - No Infinitive Imperfect
		3. Future: portaturus esse (to be going to carry)
		4. Perfect: portavisse (to have carried)
		5. Past Perfect - No Infinitive Past Perfect
		6. Future Perfect - No Infinitive Future Perfect
II. PASSIVE
	A. Indicative
		1.Present
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portor (I am being carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaris or portare (you are being carried)
				3. 3rd person: portatur (he is being carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portamur (we are being carried)
				2. 2nd person: portamini (you are being carried)
				3. 3rd person: portantur (they are being carried)
		2. Imperfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portabar (I was being carried)
				2. 2nd person: portabaris or portabare (you were being carried)
				3. 3rd person: portabatur (he was being carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portabamur (we were being carried)
				2. 2nd person: portabamini (you were being carried)
				3. 3rd person: portbantur (they were being carried)
		3. Future
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portabor (I shall be carried)
				2. 2nd person: portaberis or portabere (he will be carried)
				3. 3rd person: portabitur (he will be carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portabimur (we shall be carried)
				2. 2nd person: portabimini (you will be carried)
				3. 3rd person: portbuntur (they will be carried)
		4. Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portatus sum (I have been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portatus es (you have been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portatus est (he has been carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portati sumus (we have been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portati estis (you have been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portati sunt (they have been carried)
		5. Past Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portatus eram (I had been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portatus eras (you had been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portatus erat (he had been carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portati eramus (we had been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portati eratis (you had been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portati erant (they had been carried)
		6. Future Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portatus ero (I shall have been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portatus eris (you will have been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portatus erit (he will have been carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portati erimus (we shall have been carried)
				2. 2nd person: portati eritis (you will have been carried)
				3. 3rd person: portati erunt (they will have been carried)
	B. Subjunctive (used in subordinate clauses, translation varies)
		1.Present
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: porter
				2. 2nd person: porteris or portere
				3. 3rd person: portetur
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portemur
				2. 2nd person: portemini
				3. 3rd person: portentur
		2. Imperfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portarer
				2. 2nd person: portareris or portarere
				3. 3rd person: portaretur
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portaremur
				2. 2nd person: portaremini
				3. 3rd person: portarentur
		3. Future - No Future Subjunctive
		4. Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portatus sim
				2. 2nd person: portatus sis
				3. 3rd person: portatus sit 
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portati simus
				2. 2nd person: portati sitis
				3. 3rd person: portati sint
		5. Past Perfect
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: portatus essem
				2. 2nd person: portatus esses
				3. 3rd person: portatus esset
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: portati essemus
				2. 2nd person: portati essetis
				3. 3rd person: portati essent
		6. Future Perfect - No Subjunctive Future Perfect
	C. Imperative
		1. Present
			a. Singular: portare (be carried)
			b. Plural: portamini (be carried)
		2.Imperfect - No Imperative Imperfect
		3. Future
			a. Singular
				1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Singular
				2. 2nd person: portator (you shall be carried)
				3. 3rd person: portator (he shall be carried)
			b. Plural
				1. 1st person: No Imperative Future Plural
				2. 2nd person: No Imperative Future Plural
				3. 3rd person: portantor (they shall be carried)
		4. Perfect - No Imperative Perfect
		5. Past Perfect - No Imperative Past Perfect
		6. Future Perfect - No Imperative Future Perfect
	D. Infinitive
		1. Present: portari (to be carried)
		2. Imperfect - No Infinitive Imperfect
		3. Future: portatum iri (to be about to be carried)
		4. Perfect: portatus esse (to have been carried)
		5. Past Perfect - No Infinitive Past Perfect
		6. Future Perfect - No Infinitive Future Perfect

Gunnora Hallakarva
Herskerinde

Subject: Addendum to Florilegium Latin File
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:36:16 -0400
From: "Osburn-Day, Katherine" <katherine.osburn-day at lmco.com>
To: "'stefan at texas.net'" <stefan at texas.net>

Stefan,

  The Daily Telegraph on-line Latin course that you have referenced in your
Florilegium is now available in book form.  I found it this past weekend at
Barnes & Noble.

        Title: Learn Latin: A Lively Introduction to Reading the Language
        Author: Peter Jones
        Publisher: Barnes & Noble
        Copyright: 1997
        ISBN: 0-76070-842-8 casebound
                  0-76070-843-6 paperback

  I though you might like to know. (I bought a copy if you need anymore
information from it.)

Caterina de' Verdeschi

Subject: ANST - Latin Pronunciation In Period & the SCA
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 99 12:04:31 MST
From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

"Matthew Kies" highlycafeinated at hotmail.com wrote:
>as was most recently pointed out (see below), the common usage of latin
>in our fine kingdom stinks somethin ferocious... not only would "vivant"
>[wee wunt] be more correct than "vivat" [wee wut], but to be accurate,
>you are not usually meaning "they live" or "he/she/it lives"... usually
>what you are doing is wishing them well, or congratulations, a long
>life... in which case any of the following are appropriate:(singular)
>"VIVE" [wee way] (PLURAL) "VIVETE" [wee wa tay]
>                       "SALVE" [sul way]     "SALVETE" [sul way tay]

Si tu vales, valeo!

There are several points on which classical Latin and medieval, or church,
Latin, differ with regards to how they are pronounced.  In classical Latin,
the letters C and G are always hard, and V is prononced as a W.  In
medieval Latin, C and G are soft if followed by E, I,  or Y, and V is
sounded like V.  In medieval Latin, SC is sounded as SH.

One of those old jokes classical Latin students pull on medieval Latin
students is to hit them with the following phrase, an inscription from a
monastery refectory (dining hall) door:  Papa fidem scit  (The Pope knows
the Faith).

Read it out loud, with a hard C, as for good, classical Latin.
Now, read it out loud, with the medieval "sh" sound.

Talana
Who can't believe she's really passing on such a silly old joke, but who
did survive Latin classes that switched back and forth between a classicist
and medievalist.

Subject: ANST - RE: Latin Pronunciation In Period & The SCA
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 99 13:11:56 MST
From: Jennifer Carlson <JCarlson at firstchurchtulsa.org>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Good day, Brother Galen, and any who are interested in this topic!

Here's my attempt to answer the good friar's good questions:
(intro snipped)

> I have only found references to classical and church Latin, and have clung to
>the classical version as being more correct.

One is "more correct" than the other only in context.  Since the SCA
context is the Middle Ages, Medieval Latin would be the "more correct,"
unless you have either a Republican Roman or a later Renaissance persona.

>Do you, perchance, have a book that discusses Medieval
>pronunciation that you could copy the relevant pages for me?  I would be
>very much in your debt, and would certainly repay copy and mail expenses.

Try these titles.  If you do not have access to them, I can make copies.

Dillon, Janette, 1953- Language and stage in medieval and Renaissance
England. Cambridge, U.K. ; New York : Cambridge University Press, 1998.

Sidwell, Keith C. Reading medieval Latin. Cambridge ; New York : Cambridge
University Press, 1995.

Harrington, Karl Pomeroy 1861-1953 ed. Mediaeval Latin. [Chicago]
University of Chicago Press [1969, c1925]

Beeson, Charles Henry 1870- A primer of medieval Latin an anthology of prose
and poetry by Charles H. Beeson ... Chicago New York [etc.] Scott, Foresman
and company [c1925]

>Could you also confirm/deny something?  I found a web page a couple of years
>ago that stated that "modern" church Latin came about when Pope Pius X felt
>that Latin was daying from the Church and pushed to bring back Latin, but
>did so with essentially Italian pronunciation.  I have tried many searches
>to find this page again, but is has so far eluded me.

I haven't run across this story about Pope Pius X  [Saint (born Giuseppe
Sarto) 1835-1914] being the source of modern Church Latin pronunciation.
 Latin was firmly THE language of the Roman Church until the Second Vatican
Council in the 1960's, and even though the mass and offices are today
celebrated in the vernacular, official documents such as encyclicals are
still recorded in Latin.  In fact, an updated Vatican Latin dictionary came
out a few years ago that caused some tittering with its efforts to produce
Latin terms for "washing machine", "e-mail" and "juke box."

My own take on church pronunciation is this (warning: linguistics lesson
approaching!):

Languages evolve or they ossify and die - this is why Classical Latin and
Attic Greek are considered "dead" languages.  Over the course of a thousand
years, a certain amount of vocabulary will disappear, new vocabulary will
appear, and, in accordance with the law of entropy, the grammar will
simplify itself.  A recent example of entropy in English is that, outside
of a few cultural pockets such as the Amish, the second person familiar,
Thee, has been replaced with the second person formal, You, for all
purposes.  The average American only runs into Thee and Thou via the King
James Bible and the movies.

Rome expanded, becoming an empire and absorbing the cultures that it
conquered.  When Rome finally overran Greece, Greece influenced Roman
culture in many ways, notably in the language.  Greek nurses taught their
little Roman charges to speak Greek, and so the young Romans had to learn
as a second language what would otherwise have been their native tongue.
 This also affected how and in what contexts Latin came to be used.  The
Christian Church was born into a time when Classical Latin was beginning to
pass out of general use in the Empire.

Classical Latin is different structurally from Medieval Latin.  The major
differences between the Classical and Medieval forms are grammar and
sentence structure.  If you look at some of the differences between
Elizabethan English, which is technically Modern English, and the
vernacular in Ansteorra, you'll get the idea.  Structural differences are
also evident in the poetic forms, which can be seen in comparing the poetry
of Catullus (1st c. b.c.) and the lyrics of the Carmina Burana.

For much of the medieval period, Italy was the center of culture in Europe.
 The Italian language, which evolved out of Latin, changed its
pronunciation of certain letters and letter combinations over the
centuries, and these phonics moved over and were applied to church use of
Latin, and this pronunciation spread.  This spread was bolstered by the
fact that the other Romance Languages (those based on Latin) -- Provencal,
early French, Spanish, etc. -- were also evolving.  In the French
languages, particularly, you can see that the general use of harder
consonants smoothed out over time, leading to the more "liquid" sounding
language of Modern French.  Take a look at The Song of Roland in the
original versus in the works of Voltaire (17th c.).  Spanish retained more
of its original consonantal character than did the other Romance languages,
but Spanish vocabulary was influenced by the Moorish occupation.  So, the
Italianate pronunciation of Church Latin may not have anything to do with
the Sainted Pope Pius X.

>My searches also seem to indicate that Medieval Latin isn't taught until
>the student has had about 2 years of classical Latin. Do you know of an
>introductory text that starts with Medieval? Is there a reason that
>classical is the jumping off point, or have my searches just been too
>narrow?

Classical Latin as the introductory form of the language is a legacy from
the Renaissance.  Classical Latin was rediscovered during the Renaissance,
and became the preferred form of study for the literary and scholarly
elite.  The works of Cicero, in particular, are held up as the paragon of
Classical form and grammar.  The concepts of "liberal arts education" and
"classical education", also legacies of Renaissance humanism, are allegedly
the precepts upon which modern education is based.  Hence, Classical Latin
is taught first.  Most students do not progress far enough in their studies
of the humanities to have a need for Medieval Latin - indeed, most students
do not study Latin at all.  All of the beginning Latin textbooks I am aware
of are geared towards Classical Latin.  Perhaps someone else out there can
suggest a text.

In servicio,

Dunstana Talana Viola
Arc Septemtrionis (Northkeepensis)
Or should it be
Arcis Septemtrionis (Northkeepensi)?
Nominative or ablative? Nominative or ablative? Aagh! Salve me! Salve me!

I swear, Your Honor, I was just polishing my Liberal Arts degree when it
went off!

Subject: Latin Cognates to Modern English Words
Date: Sun, 16 May 99 12:11:23 MST
From: Gunnora Hallakarva <gunnora at bga.com>
To: GRDNR4EVR at aol.com
CC: "Mark.S Harris (rsve60)" <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>
Re: Amicii flores in horto vitae sunt.

>I enjoy the Latin words that are still a large part of the English language
>and am often surprised by the amount of people that have no idea of their
>origin.

This particular phrase clearly shows its English cognates:

amicii, "friends" (amicable)
flores, "flowers" (flowers, floral)
horto, "garden" (horticulture)
vitae, "of life" (vital, vitality)

Studies have shown that students who take as little as a single year of
Latin in high school score significantly higher in the language portion of
standardized tests such as the PSAT, SAT, and ACT.  The major reason is
because having a core understanding of a small Latin vocabulary unlocks an
enormous amount of English that has been influenced by Norman French.

Thus if a student knows the verb "jacere" (to throw) and a selection of
common prepositions, they can easily guess the meanings of such words as:

eject (throw out)
reject (throw back)
project (throw forward)
inject (throw inward)

This allows these students to score much higher on the lingusitic portions
of the standard tests since they have a much higher percentage of correct
guesses on unknown words based on their Latin cognates.

 cc: Stefan li Rous for his Florilegium Files <rsve60 at email.sps.mot.com>

Wæs ﬁu Hæl (Waes Thu Hael)

::GUNNORA::

Gunnora Hallakarva
Baroness to the Court of Ansteorra

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 20:57:09 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Palaeography how to
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Something interesting from the UK

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/

Johnnae

<the end>