Title: feast-serving-msg
Subject: Ideas for serving feasts.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: SCA, feasts, serving, potluck, servers

feast-serving-msg – 3/31/13

Ideas for serving feasts. Suggestions on how to organize for feast serving.

NOTE: See also the files: feasts-msg, feast-decor-msg, feast-ideas-msg, feast-menus-msg, fst-disasters-msg, p-menus-msg, pot-luck-fsts-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 1997 20:32:37 EDT
Subject: SC - Re: Feast Logistics

Sir Gunthar writes:

>>  Before I really blew up, another member of our party took care of the
matter by talking with the head server.  The reason for this story is
that IMHO a Head Cook's main duty lies in the enjoyment of the feasters. 
I truly  understand the stresses involved in cooking a feast but there
should always be someone to take care of the little disasters that always
happen during feasts.<<

One of the 'easiest' feasts I ever served was due to Lady Catriona of
Silver Rylle, EK, who took it upon herself to 'train' the servers.  Not
all were from our shire.  She got from me the specifics of exactly which
serving platters and bowls and serving utensils needed to be gotten back
to the kitchen quickly in order to be washed and ready for the next
course, just how many slices/ladles/et al were available for each diner,
which foods might have extras for refills--in short, everything a server
might need to know.  She had a list of the people for whom there were
special preparations--no mushrooms, or no whatever-allergies--and she did
all the talking to the servers and supervised.   

At the last minute, the Feast Master is at the busiest, checking
everything and co-ordinating everything in the kitchen.  Having someone
like Cat take over is truly a blessing.  The problem lies in the fact
that most people don't want to be away from their friends during feast,
or let their own food get cold while they work.  Finding such a person to
do that job is not easy.  Some shires in the East give 1/2 price or even
free feasts to servers in order to get servers.  They show up just before
feast and there is not enough time to 'work with' them.  The last feast I
did, I told the soup servers that was all the soup.  They were back in a
few minutes, having served 1/3 the tables with large amounts, and they
wanted more.  That gives the Feast Master a bad rep, and isn't fair.  If
you can develop a good corps of servers, do so for your own peace of mind
and that of your diners.

Allison

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 13:40:26 -0500
From: mfgunter at tddeng00.fnts.com (Michael F. Gunter)
Subject: Re: SC - feasts in each Kingdom

Also, on the interkingdom feast anthropology.  Another thing which is beginning
to catch on is what I did for Coronation. Servers paid half price for feast and
I served them the complete meal before the feast began.  The servers were then
assigned tables and told to make them happy.  The benefits to this were varied,
the servers were fed so could concentrate on their wards, they knew what each
course was and so could answer questions, (hopefully) they knew they were 
appreciated by both the Cooks and their tables, and also there was very little
confusion about what and who went where.

Gunthar

Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 10:34:17 -0500
From: Debra Hense <debh at microware.com>
Subject: SC - RE: allergies - long-winded response

<snip>

By the way, for servers, I always make an extra table serving or two
of everything for the servers specifically.  And they have a special area
set aside in the kitchen, or to the back of the serving hall, where they
can sit and enjoy the exact same food as the feast goers. Or, they are
allowed to sit one at each table where they are serving and so may eat
with the feasters. They are never allowed to make do with what comes
back or what is left over. They are doing me a tremendous favor for no
pay, the least I can do is make sure they get to eat well.

Kateryn de Develyn
debh at microware.com

From: dvick at crl.COM (Donald E. Vick)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: how to present boar's head dinner?
Date: 22 Jul 1997 23:47:52 -0400

In article <Pine.A41.3.95b.970722160746.82710B-100000 at homer08.u.washington.edu> you write:
>Hello:  I just stumbled across this newsgroup and was wondering if anyone
>knew of a resource (or actually knows the answer) that tells how a boar's
>head dinner would be prepared and presented.  I have found medieval
>cookbooks with recipes but no books on the art or presentation.....what a
>set table would be like, which accompaniments, you know, the works.  If
>anyone can point me in the right direction that would be great.  Thanks!

     Believe it or not, there is a very detailed description of how to
serve a boar's head in a modern cookbook - "The Joy of Cooking".  It's
in the chapter on game and you should be able to find the book in any
library or bookstore.

Hugh the Barefoot
Barony of the South Downs, Meridies
----------------------------------------------------------------------
| Thaddaeus Vick, Linguist to the Masses |       dvick at crl.com       |
|                                        |                           |
| I could be wrong.  After all, there's  |                           |
|      a first time for everything.      | http://www.crl.com/~dvick |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: how to present boar's head dinner?
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:35:04 -0400
Organization: Computer Operations, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA

Excerpts from netnews.rec.org.sca: 22-Jul-97 Re: how to present boar's
h.. by Donald E. Vick at crl.COM 
>      Believe it or not, there is a very detailed description of how to
> serve a boar's head in a modern cookbook - "The Joy of Cooking".  It's
> in the chapter on game and you should be able to find the book in any
> library or bookstore.

Speaking of cookbooks, Terence Scully's translation of Chiquarts "On
Cookery" (a 15th C French cookbook) has a few pages on presenting a
boar's head.  Describes how to cook it, how to endore (is that the
word?) it, about putting the banner of the lord you are serving it in
front of on the head, and about how to make it breath fire.  One of
these days when I get really ambitious, I'm going to try it.

toodles, margaret 

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Hand washing ritual at feasts

Meriel of the Marsh asked about hand washing.
  We would love to know just how this is done. Should the servers go
  around to each seated person with pitchers of scented water and a
  towel of sorts, with a helper to catch it in a suitable container; do just the
  fingers get washed ritually or is it both hands properly; and when does
  one time it for, so that the food doesn't cold in the process and there's an
  awful hiatus?! Or what and how, please?

Ah, laving.   If I recall correctly John Russell's Book of Nurture (primary
source) and Henisch's book Fast and Feast (secondary source) all discuss
laving ceremonies.  Gervase Markham (I think) has a recipe for scented water
for laving, which I have been meaning to make for quite some time now.

Generally around here, we reserve it for high table, and individual tables
may do so as they wish.  A pitcher with laving water, and a catch bowl are
carried by a servitor, who also has a towel over one arm.  Hands are held
over the bowl, and water is trickled over them from the pitcher, and the
guest dries their own hands on the towel.

I am right handed: so the towel goes over the left arm, and the bowl in the
left hand.

We do this about 5 minutes before the meal begins.

Trivia on serving.  Didja know that proper table service in a restaurant is
to serve food over the left shoulder, and to take away empty plates from the
diners right side?  This comes from period.  The proper way to sit at table
is to take a long napkin, and drape it over the left shoulder and across the
lap, and to pull the long tablecloth up, and over the lap as well.  Full
bowls can be served over the left shoulder, and if they spill, they hit the
napkin.

Last year, at the Pennsic Royalty Dinner, the East gave out commemorative
napkins.  Princess Elspeth and Baron Steffan (of the East) were the only
people at the table to properly lay them over their left shoulders.  I had
to thank them for making my day.  And when I did, I noticed that they also
had the nappery drawn over their laps.  I told their server to please serve
them over the left, and take away from the right.

	Tibor

Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 14:05:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Hand washing ritual at feasts

Meriel of the Marsh writes:
> ... I haven't managed to find
> anything on washing hands at feasts. 
> We would love to know just how this is done. Should the servers go
> around to each seated person with pitchers of scented water and a
> towel of sorts, with a helper to catch it in a suitable container; do just the
> fingers get washed ritually or is it both hands properly; and when does
> one time it for, so that the food doesn't cold in the process and there's an
> awful hiatus?! Or what and how, please?

I've only been to two or three feasts where this was done.  One was the
Midrealm Cooks' Collegium in 1992 or 1993.  Only a few dozen people
were there, so it didn't delay things terribly.  I think we had two
servers go around with ewer, basin, and towel.  The second was a dinner
for twenty or so in Enchanted Ground at Pennsic, 1995, with (by strange
coincedence) largely the same collection of people.  It can work, if
you have a high enough ratio of servers to diners.  A compromise, for
when you have few servers or lots of diners, is to put finger-bowls of
scented water on all the tables in advance.

In re the food getting cold: my understanding is that most medieval
cooking was done a significant distance away from the feast hall, often
in a separate building, and that most of it was close to room
temperature by the time it was served.

					mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu

Date: Sun, 07 Sep 1997 14:41:16 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Serving at a Feast

Bonnie L. Clapshaw wrote:
> I am looking for advise or suggestions regarding feast servers.
> 
> I am in charge of the servers during the feast at AnTir's Fall Crown
> Council this November.  I would like to have the Head Table served as
> period as possible.  My understanding (to date) is that only those of
> high enough rank served the King and Queen when they dined and that
> some jobs had a specific title and person such as a Carver.
> 
> Is this true? Where would be a good place to start researching?

Check Bridget Anne Henisch's "Fast and Feast", Terence Scully's "The Art
of Cookery in the Middle Ages", and last, but (surprisingly enough) not
least, the Larousse Gastronomique entry entitled "Ecuyer Tranchant".
This last is an office that reached its height of complex responsibility
(and commensurate perks) in France immediately prior to the revolution,
but it had its origins in the fact that it was considered a bad idea, in
period, for the King to allow anyone but a trusted retainer (generally a
knight) near him with a sharp knife.

One of my great pet peeves over fourteen years in the SCA is the
frequency with which various peer-types leap at the chance to do this
job at high tables, only to botch it severely, resulting in an
unappetizing presentation and much food waste, which is essentially an
insult, however unintentional, to both the cooks and the other diners,
who might otherwise have seen their money spent more wisely. 

So, my inclination is to see to it that someone who knows how to carve
and serve is the one to do it, and if you want them to be high-ranking,
you can either discreetly inquire about those people's actual skill
levels and experience, or you can offer to find someone to teach them,
or you can write to your royalty about advancing the rank of those who
carve and serve well ;  )  . 

I hope I'm not foaming at the mouth excessively on this topic; it's just
one of my buttons...please disregard those portions of this response
which come under the heading of mad ranting...

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 22:13:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: rousseau at scn.org (Anne-Marie Rousseau)
Subject: Re: SC - Serving at a Feast

>Bonnie L. Clapshaw wrote:
>> 
>> I am looking for advise or suggestions regarding feast servers.
>> 
Adamantius suggests:>
>Check Bridget Anne Henisch's "Fast and Feast", Terence Scully's "The Art
>of Cookery in the Middle Ages", and last, but (surprisingly enough) not
>least, the Larousse Gastronomique entry entitled "Ecuyer Tranchant".

Please, also check out _The Art of Dining_ by Sara Paston-Williams. 
Lovely book, pretty pictures and she really gets into describing HOW food 
was eaten as well as what, etc. Also, Scully's translation of Chiquarts 
work has a neat section in the front where he discusses the titles of the 
people on Chiquart (big chef guy for a Savoy duke in 1400's) payroll.

Good for you for doing this extra bit! From our experience, we find that 
it adds immeasurably to the overal impact of a meal.

- --Anne-Marie

Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:03:38 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Philip's Bad feasts

>>  Too many people fail to realize that the organization of the feast hall
>> and the instruction of the servers are integral to making a feast a
>> pleasing experience.
>
>I was at an event recently where I was at High Table. The service was
>a little off, when they came out they were wonderful but I wound up
>refilling people's drinks and even scraping everybody's dishes so they
>could be used for the next course. This is bad when the people at High
>Table have to do their own service. On the occassions the servers did
>come out they were very courteous and helpful.
>
>That's why at my last Coronation feast and at 12th Night the servers will
>be assigned tables with the orders "make your table happy".

When I lay out a feast site, I try to arrange the tables so that they
can be reached easily and so the service can flow from the kitchen to
the tables and back to the kitchen along an easy to follow one way path.
 I have the entire service overseen by a head server (usually one who
has worked with me before).  The head server does not serve, but handles
problems.  One server (assigned)  for each two tables works for me, with
two to four floaters (depending on the size of the feast) handling
drinks.

The High Table is supposed to have two servers stationed at it, to run
the necessary errands, but the food is often brought by "hats" not
seated there.  Drinks are provided by the floaters.

The worst experience I have had with a feast was the First Calontir
Crown Tourney, where no one in the hosting group understood the dynamics
of a feast and the people by the kitchen ate while the people opposite
the kitchen starved.

Bear

Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:18:21 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Re: [Mid] Suggestions needed

>:      I have been designated Head Server for our local 12th Night feast, and
>: I would like suggestions on how best to organize and handle my end of
>: things.

First things first, if you are the Head Server, your job is to be sure
everyone is being served, that the service is flowing properly, and that
any problems which appear are handled quickly and quietly.  You should
not be serving.  You should watch and instruct the servers.

If you must speak to the Head Cook through an intermediary, be sure it
is someone who has worked regularly with the cook.  Preferably someone
who can read the cook's mind.  Every layer in a communications chain
introduces approximately a 25% error rate.

How are the dishes going to be served?  One server can handle up to two
tables if everything for a course is going to be delivered to the table
on a single platter or if you are delivering one dish at a time to the
table (a custom I find appalling).  If you are going to serve four or
five individual dishes to the table, one per table should work,
especially if you have them team up and serve everything to a table at
one time.  If you are serving individual plates, you could need 2 or
more servers per table.

Assign a couple people to the head table.  If the Crown is present, see
if any of the Nobility who are not at the Head Table would be willing to
serve.  Your people are there to make sure the job gets done.

Set up an area to stage the food before delivery to the table.  Usually
this is manned by kitchen staff, who are preping the dishes, but it may
be up to you to suggest/arrange it.

Use a seperate set of servers to handle drinks.  Usually a single drink
server can handle about 4 tables.

Check the layout of the tables.  You must have enough space for the
servers to reach all the tables.  Try to establish a traffic pattern, so
the servers move in one direction from the staging area to their tables
and return to the staging area by another path.  Leave enough room
between the tables, so hoop skirts don't get in the way of the servers.
Be sure the servers understand the pattern they are to follow.

Are your tables standard size?  If so seat a specific number of people
at each table.  It allows the staging people to evenly distribute food
without knowing the specifics of the table.  I like standard 6' to 8'
folding tables with 8 people to a table.

I often start feasts with bread or finger food on the table.  It keeps
people occupied while I spin up the first course.

What entertainment/court/idiocy will be occurring during the feast?  Is
it continuous or can you stage it to occur while people are eating?  How
will it effect your servers and service?

Be sure the servers know what is expected and what their jobs are going
to be.  Unless you have an experienced crew, getting together to talk
over how you are going to handle things might be a good idea.  Coffee,
tea, and ideas.

About 1 hour before the feast, look in the mirror and say, "It's show
time!"  Your crew will have it together or they won't.  If they have it
together, you get to graciously circulate through the crowd and
determine if anyone needs anything.  If they haven't got it together,
you get to run all over creation straightening out the messes.  In
either case, you've done what you could for planning and preparation and
the only thing left is execution (hopefully , not yours :-) ).

Bon Chance
Bear

Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 03:40:48 EST
From: CorwynWdwd <CorwynWdwd at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: [Mid] Suggestions needed LONG

M'Lady Heather,

> I had thought of getting one server to cover each table, with me
>  : helping out wherever and possibly covering the High Table as well.

As head server it's best you stay on post if Your halls are anything like
ours. If anything goes wrong (which in most cases it dosen't, but little
snags DO occur) you'll be needed to direct the troops.

>  : A sign-up sheet has been suggested (I can't believe I missed this idea,
>  : but I did!),

Always a good idea, and if it's a new idea where you are, have the "Troll"
point it out while people are regestering. Also a call to remind people about
midday about the sign up sheet sometimes is in order, as we sometimes get
caught up in the hurley-burley of eventing. OR if you want to live on the edge
you can call for a server from each table at the onset, that works quite
well here, and people can spare each other.

If it's a big feast and I have a good stable of servers, I make sure to set
aside food for them, just to make sure they're fed. Some people I've worked
with actually feed the servers beforehand, but that's hard to co-ordanate.
Sometimes their friends fill their plates each course too. That, you'll have
to find out about by experence.

>  :and I was also thinking of using something like a cart or a small table to
>  : hold each dish as we serve it out. What works for those of you who've done
>  :this before?

The cart idea is good if you have them. Especially in the case of big
containers of soup. If you can lay out the hall so as to make them usable that
is. Better get with the Hall Steward or whoever is in charge of table layout
beforehand. With the crowding in some of our halls we often try and ladle
everything we can into serving platters and send the individual table servers
with enough for eight or ten (depending on the layout.

In Southern Atlantia we don't seperate on and offboard often as I've seen them
do in other Kingdoms (the few times I've BEEN out of Kingdom that is). Lately
we've gone to using feast tokens (A pin on ribbon or some shiney dangley
showing who's on and off at a table) because in the rush sometimes people get
confused and don't remember which they are. You might also consider this.

Corwyn

Subject: ANST - Feast Style [was Steppes 12th Night]
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 98 10:23:05 MST
From: John Ruble <jruble at urocor.com>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

> kaitlyn mckenna said:
>
> Yes, we also have similar problems in Stargate...usually we do buffet.
>
> At Yule we tried to make the buffet more interesting, less cafeteria
> style.  One Yule we had each table send up one of their own to act as
> their server.  We had large platters for them to bring up for that
> remove of food, and a different person from that table could be "server"
> on the next remove.

I know my lady has groused more than once about cafeteria style buffet
feasts, and I tend to agree with her.  I find the veil of medieval
illusion wearing thin when I have to stand in line for half an hour
while watching the dish I had set my heart (or stomach) on disappear.
And trying hard to think of some polite way to chastise "cutters". And
trying hard to think of something ELSE to say to the person in line in
front of me. And trying very hard not to think of how much my feet hurt.
And trying very, VERY hard not to trip the next poor bastard that walks
by and snatch his plate.

The scenario you described, of having an individual from each table hit
the buffet for the whole table, is one I have crossed vary rarely but
enjoyed.  It is hard on the one running the tray back and forth, though.
If the feasters take turns, though, then the impact on their dinner
conversation is lower. The average feast has less than the five hundred
the Steppes managed to feed for 12th Night. Pick a number and divide by
eight per table, and you will see how quickly that feast must run.

Loch Sollier did a feast that was half served, half smorgasbord that
worked very well several years ago.  The main courses were served, but
various sides were placed a tables around the hall.  I grabbed smoked
herring for us all while my friend made sure I was served the lamb &
barley soup.

Still, I like being served feast. It's easier for me to watch the kids,
and I don't have to lose my place in line to go herald, or even worse,
cross an angry picket line of hungry feasters.

Ulf Gunnarsson

Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 17:28:19
From: Ellen Murtland
To: Middlebridge
Subject: Re: [Mid] Good Feast!

      We *probably*, maybe, could have combined Hall Steward and Head Server
into one position, but I personally am glad that we didn't.  The Hall
Steward (in this case, Lord Faremanne de Vere) was responsible for
decorating the hall, setting up tables and such, arranging and
announcing the entertainment, and announcing each remove.  He also
announced things on behalf of the other feast staff, like Aminah's
request to inform servers of any food restrictions so we could serve
alternate dishes -- and yes, she and her cooks had such things prepared
ahead of time, as hot and as ready to serve as the main courses.  Like I
said, the whole thing was impressive.  As Head Server, I think I had the
easiest job; all I did was coordinate the servers, and assist in staging
the food right before it was served.  Faremanne and I worked together:
when we were ready to serve, he would announce the course; once he saw
everything laid out, he would give feasters a few minutes to dig in
before starting that course's entertainment; during entertainment, I was
generally (not always) the only server moving around, and we stayed as
quiet as possible so as not to distract from entertainment.

      The idea that worked really well for us, as suggested by a gentle on
the Bridge, was to have more than one server for each table, so that
servers could eat when not working.  We had two per table, (each table,
roughly sixteen people) and servers took turns working removes; that
way, if you'd served First Remove, you got a chance to sit and enjoy the
Second Remove.  There was a little bit of confusion right at the
beginning, because I had servers sit at the tables they worked, and
people had to move their feast gear around.  That should have been
handled better.  At least no one got lost trying to figure out which
table they were supposed to work!

      I remember someone saying that they had a disaster when most of their
servers backed out at the last minute.  About a half hour before feast
began, my signup sheet showed that I had almost all the servers that I
needed, and one announcement brought me the last few to give me the
ideal number.  The day before that event, I had no servers at all
(except for people like Terric, who would only *not* help if they were
dead!)  My servers were both kid and adult -- it helped having little
people to fit in our small kitchen and help bring food to the staging
area *smile*, and we had one little guy who was probably six, who wanted
to help so badly that I teamed him with the Head Table servers.  I heard
him talking afterward about why he was wearing that blue tabard, and he
seemed pretty proud of himself. *smile*  And I could have kissed one
lady, who has worked as a waitress before and naturally did an excellent
job.  Just knowing that all my servers were competent and eager to help
reassured me immensely.  I swear, I kept *trying* to make them go sit
down and eat, and they'd keep popping up and asking if there was
anything else that needed to be done!

      Heather of Shadowed Stars, who can't wait for her second feast

Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 00:52:34 -0800
From: Bonnie Clapshaw <bonnie at inetarena.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Feasts:  Serving and Carving

> Is there any interest in discussing how to make this part of a feast
> (carving and serving) more “medieval”? 

Greetings unto the List,

In regards to trying to make the serving at a feast more "medieval", last Nov. I
volunteered to be in charge of the servers at an AnTirian Crown Council. Here
is what I came up with.

The hall had 20 round tables which seated 8 people lined up on either side of
the hall and 1 long rectangular table used for the High Table which seated 10
people at the head of the hall.  The High Table was on an 18" raised platform
with an large open space in front (for various entertainments) and a round
"Presentation" table to the right.

I had one server per table plus about five "extra" servers who helped out where
it was needed.  The High Table was served by the Baron and Baroness of the area
plus a Carver (a Knight of the area) and a Steward (a Pelican of the area). The
Carver was responsible for the presentation and carving of the meat of each
course.  The Steward was responsible for the drinks for the High Table.

The presentation of _each_ course to the High Table was as follows:  Each dish
of the course was carried out by one server with the meat dish last in line.
The servers processed up the middle aisle towards the High Table, they stopped
at the edge of the open space where they reverenced while the dish was announced
to the populace by a Herald.  They then set the dishes on the table except for
the meat dish which was placed on the Presentation table to be carved and served
with all the appropriate pomp and circumstance.

The above presentation was done before the populace was served because each
course was to be approved by the Crowns.  Once approved the King gave leave for
the populace to be served.  Again this was done with all the appropriate pomp
and circumstance.

I believe that the feast and service with well with only a few bottlenecks. I
did not hear any major complaints about the different serving style and I got
some compliments.  It was also very fun to watch a whole roast pig being brought
out presented and carved in front of everyone.

I would also like to say that I could not have done this without the full
support of my Barony.  (Especially since I was 9, yes 9, months pregnant at
the time and I think my whole Barony was baby-sitting me!! : ' ))

Lady Ariadne Melissena
Barony of Three Mountains
An Tir

Subject: Re: ANST - to serve or not to serve...
Date: Mon, 28 Sep 98 16:50:54 MST
From: Dottie Elliott <difirenze at usa.net>
To: <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

Knowing the horror I will cause (by suggesting an out of kingdom idea), I
will mention how we served feasts in our small shire in the East Kingdom.
We simply had one person from each table come up and get the food for
each course. It was quick, simple and didn't impact anyone greatly. Its
not as nice as having servers but we only had 10 people in the shire and
just couldn't get enough servers.

Clarissa

Subject: Re: ANST - to serve or not to serve...
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 98 06:16:11 MST
From: "Donald Riney" <dariusobells at hotmail.com>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

>My humble opinion on this is: SERVE!!!!! My reasons are entirely
>personal but here they are. I HATE being part of a buffet line cattle
>shuffle, it's glaringly modern (to me) and typically the people at the
>end of the line starve because eyes at the front of the line are bigger
>than stomachs.
>       I feel that a sit down served feast is much more in keeping with the
>atmosphere we are trying to promote and can be accomplished without
>major difficulty with a little pre-planning and bribery.

>Hasheika Maleah
>Barony of Namron

I most heartily agree, of the feast I have attended those I have most
enjoyed were well co-ordinated with servers. Not only does this provide
a meathode of sending equal food all directions, but it can also enhance
the atmosphere. Though I haven't been back in a while I Still tell all
my friends about Mooneschadowe's feast. Usualy served By lowered Lights,
By gentles wearing shire livery, with formal presentations by the cooks
to the high table. These are not hard to coreograph.

Further I have to say that serving feast is as much fun as being
served. It gives one the chance to work with and get to know friends
both old and new. and Geting to eat for helping is kinda nice to! :-)

Darius

Subject: ANST - RE: To serve or not...
Date: Fri, 02 Oct 98 08:19:07 MST
From: David Epps <icc_dce at shsu.edu>
To: "'ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG'" <ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG>

I, Zorcon of Lizardkeep send Greetings from Ravensfort,

     I have followed with interest the ongoing discussion related to
serving or not serving the feast at an event. I realize that the format of
feast often depends on the type of event you are trying to provide and the
atmosphere you are wishing to encourage.

     A few years back we provided a feast in the buffet style but with a
twist. This was not a high persona event.  First we provided each of our
guests with "money."   Indicators were placed on each bill for a specific
type of food being served and our guest were issued one of each.   Our
guests were able to trade with each other to pick and chose just what they
wanted for the evening meal.  Beef, fowl (each meat vendor had their own
grill at the back of the shop), a vegetable and rice shop, a selection of
fresh fruits, cheeses, fresh bread, salads (If memory serves there was a
choice of standard romaine salad and a dandelion salad for those brave
enough) and drinks.

     Several tents (GP Mediums) boxed in the feasting area.  In each tent
were two or three food "vendors."  The feast area was open for 3 hours to
provide enough time for every one to eat at a leisurely pace. Our guest had
the choice of what order the food was acquired, which line was the
shortest, et. cert.  In some cases one individual would bring several bills
at once to a vendor for say 6 servings of fowl and carry it back to the
table.  In the meantime another member of the group would visit the cheese
vendor and so on.

     In short all of the lines were short, the hot food was hot and the
cold food was cold.  Each vendor and their staff were responsible for
cleaning up their respective store front.   Coordination between the
various stores was provided by the Feast-o-crat.  The cleanup crew had only
to deal with the seating area.  All in all IMHO this worked out fine.

      I regards to a more formal affair we provided a served feast at
another event with a distinct middle-eastern flair.
At this event all (4?) GP Medium tents were set end to end, the "high
table" was placed about the middle of the tents on a slightly raised
platform above the rest of the populace.   We placed low tables arranged
along both sides of the combined tents with carpets underneath for the
sitting areas.  All of our guests were encouraged to bring candles.
 Platters with the entire feast for four were delivered down the center
isle to each table as quickly as possible ensuring hot was hot and cold was
cold.  IMHO this also seemed to work well and the atmosphere was quite
enchanting.  The disruptions during the feast and the following court were
minimal.

     Having served feast on a primitive site numerous times we have to be
creative in how we present and serve a feast for 100+ guests.  When it
fails it fails miserably but when we succeed feasts can be a joy.

     I hope not to offend any one by my fuzzy memory or the rosy glow time
gives certain events.

Zorcon of Lizardkeep.

Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 20:44:17 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers

Hi from Anne-Marie

we are asked on serving methods.
Here in Madrone we've tried purdy nar everythang.  Everything has its pros
and cons.

1. formal serving, with assigned "servants" who's job it is to wait on you
hand and foot. Pros: most medieval, very flashy, food gets served in the
correct order, kitchen head can tell servers how she wants it done. Cons:
takes a long time. Some people wont get to sit and eat with their friends
cuz theyre serving. Need to actually TRAIN your crew or else it ends up
like the keystone cops.

2. "table servers", where an individal from each table volunteers to come
up and get the food for their table. They then sit and the food is consumed
family style. Pros: less time ahead of time needed, can grab warm bodies on
site, takes less time for people to get the food on their own plates. Cons:
not ver medieval. can be a three ring circus when no one knows who the
table server is, the wrong dishes get grabbed, some get missed, etc. No one
knows what the food is, or how its supposed to served.

3. Buffet style, where food is lined up and folks file past it. Pros: no
organization needed, no time for food to get to plates, once they get to
the food! Everyone gets to eat with their buddies. Cons: Not even CLOSE to
medieval! no portion control, folks have to stand in line until they get to
the food, which might be all gone when Duke Whatsisface takes the entire
ham for himself. This can be avoided by stationing servers with large
ladles behind the food to "aid" in portion control and answer questions and
keep folks from poking the food with their fingers. Also, if you set up two
or three buffet lines, the lines are much shorter and the food gets to the
diners quicker.

we've done pretty much any combination of the three above as well, with
some more successful than others. Fully served with trained servers who
were also frustrated actors was my favorite :).

- --Anne-Marie

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 06:59:36 EDT
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers

In a message dated 98-10-19 17:59:33 EDT, Micaylah wrote:
<< Is it normal practice in other kingdoms to have Servers serving your
feast?

 If not, how do you get around to delivering the food to the tables?

 Has anyone tried the "a person sitting at table comes and gets it for the
 table" technique?

 Any input would be gratefully accepted at this point. >>

I have done feast service in several different ways.  I'll see if I can
enumerate & describe the reactions for you here.

"Family-style" service, being the bringing of big dishes of food to a table &
letting the feasters serve themselves:  Easy enough for the servers to
accomplish, but does not allow for any kind of portion control, so people on
the far end may not get enough or any of that particular dish, if their
table companions heap their plates.

"Smorgasbord-type" buffet service:  Creates a free-for-all at the boards,
takes too much time, and there is no opportunity for portion control at all.
It also looks messy, and feasters get antsy waiting for their table's "turn"
to graze.

"Served-style" buffet service, with each dish being served by a person
standing behind the boards:  This one works okay for small feasts, say 60
feasters or less, and gives the kitchen steward moderate protion control
provided they have adequately informed the servers of what each portion should
be.  If it's done course by course, the number of servers needed is small,
everyone gets their portion of the food, and the time it takes is about the
same as it would be for sit-down service.

"Individual-server" type:  This is pretty much the standard service here in
Trimaris.  The Kitchen Steward will have, with luck, enough servers to send
out two teams, to work the hall from opposite ends (or sides), adequately
informed as to what each portion should be.  It is the responsibility of the
feasters themselves to pass their plates when the server reaches their table.
This is where things usually go wrong.  It's not the servers' fault, it's the
feasters.  I served a feast a few years ago where the feasters griped and
grumbled and shot dirty looks every time the servers showed up at their
tables.  They didn't want to pass their plates, they wanted the server to inch
their way between packed tables and plop food onto their plates where they
sat.  This is dangerous when a server has a huge flat tray of hot, juicy meat.
Even professional waiters would balk at this prospect, and most feast servers
are not professionals by any stretch of the imagination.  In this case, it
would behoove the Hall Steward to give a little instruction to the feasters as
to what is expected of them to afford the servers the most efficient service
possible.

"Table-server" type, where each table sends someone to fetch the food for the
table:  This is okay for small feasts, but not particularly ideal.  It is, in
effect, family-style service, and does not allow for portion control.  It also
makes feasters grumble a lot about being on the end of the table and pressed
into service as the fetcher.  There's no way for the Kitchen Steward to know
if every table has been served every dish.  It makes their job a little
tougher than it really has to be.

I think it would be a good thing to prepare feasters for what is expected of
them at feast.  A little direction to the feasters would go a long way to
making the service of the feast more efficient and less stressful, if the
feasters were told what to do.  So many folk just don't know, and this creates
difficulties for everyone involved in getting the food to the tables.  One
nightmarish stint as a server usually "cures" the person of ever doing it
again, and this is one aspect of our recreation that can be dealt with, if
we'll just educate the populace as well as the servers.

Wolfmother

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 08:09:13 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers

HI all from Anne-Marie
Claricia sez:

The autocrat rather unceremoniously informed
> me that we would not be having servers, just a person from each table
> would truck off to the kitchen.

*sigh*. I guess that's why they call them "autocrates", eh? :) Fear not,
kind lady. We can make this work. We've done several banquets for 150 this
way and it was OK. not as flashy as we would have liked but oh well.

The key is to have a "kitchen steward", ie someone who's job it is to make
sure food is garnished correctly, stage it on a couple of tables and keep
the hordes out of your kitchen and at bay until its ok for them to to take
the dishes. We put a couple banquet tables outside the kitchen door. The
food leaves the kitchen and goes to Team Garnish. After they attck it with
the edible flowers and parsley sprigs, it goes to the staging area. Small
folded index cards, one with a number for each table, mark which dish goes
to which table. If there's no card, it means someone already picked up your
dish. The Kitchen Steward answers questions ("what is THAT????"), makes
sure the sauces go out with the meat, etc. After every course goes out, she
cruises the tables and makes sure that every table has one and only one of
everything. Us stirring about in the back of the hall, putting dishes on
the staging tables is the signal that the next course is coming out. If the
server is annoying, we will bop them with a ladle. :)

The keys to making this method work, we find are the following:
1. One thing per table. Make sure there's eight servings on one plate, and
the Kitchen Steward keeps them from grabbing two sauces, etc. The index
tent cards help here too.
2. Keep them out of the kitchen!!!! This is part of the Stewards job. I
guess our barony is well enough trained...they stay out of the kitchen
pretty much on their own :).
3. The Kitchen Steward is a job that requires nerves of steel, the ability
to think on their feet and impecible tact. Its also a very fun job,
juggling all kinds of diverse tasks so that the kitchen crew can focus on
producing amazing food.
4. Make your table servers meet you for a few minutes before the food
starts coming out so they know the drill. Folks wanna do right, but they
need to know what that is!

So, the family style thang can work, it just takes some planning ahead of
time and a good Steward.

Alternately, if you have yur heart set on fully serving, one can do like we
did for our Elizabethan banquet, where we got our local Drama guild to be
the servers (any opportunity to act). They bought their tickets, and we
just made sure that they had their own table, and that they got food. They
just got to it a bit later. The courses were staggered enough that they had
a bit of time to sit and eat. Our budgets don’t allow us to do ANY comps,
and this worked well for us.

Sounds to me like your autocrate is going through some pretty typical
pre-event "eek! I am not in total control of this one very important
thing!!" jitters (never been there meself, nope nope nope :)). Hang in
there, dont kill her, and all will be well! :) (if you're in the slammer
for manslaughter, who will run the kitchen? )

- --AM

Date: Tue, 20 Oct 1998 18:31:31 -0500
From: maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers (ALSO: testing meals)

Margo Hablutzel wrote:

>         Has anyone tried the "a person sitting at table comes and gets it
> for the table" technique?
>
> I have seen this tried, but you have the problem of how to politely let
> people know that the next course is available, and that the person may or
> may not have any skill in serving.  Some tables will choose a different
> person or pairs of persons per course.  In addition to the oft-mentioned
> traffic jam at the serving area, you can get collisions as people try to get
> up from the tables and come over all at the same time.

I have seen this type of serving work. You need a bit of organization. First,
you place a flag on each table with a number (this does not include the high
table).  When a course is about to be served.... you call up one person from
each table (example, Tables 1-5). They must bring their flags with them to
identify their table.  When they get to the window, they tell the kitchen
workers how many servings to put on the tray.When serving a multi-course feast,
you just let everyone know that they need to wait until they are called up
before approaching the kitchen.
Should help solve some of the problem.

Meadhbh

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:08:42 EDT
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers

In a message dated 98-10-20 16:42:29 EDT, Helen wrote:
<< If you have the space, what is wrong with servers bringing the food to
 the guests and placeing it on the plates?  I am getting mixed signals
 about it being period.  I know that this type service got popular by a
 Russian introducing it to "Tend Setters". (in victorian times?)  But
 would, a say a Royal Wedding Feast, be served to the guests or home
 style platters on the tables? >>

Documentably, from about the mid-14th century on, in England, meals in large
households were served in messes, with a mess being food for four people. The
steward had a book with a list of household officers and the number of messes
they received for each meal.  Each household officer then had a subordinate
mess officer who doled out the food to the individual members of the staff who
were entitled to receive food for that meal.  The steward also had a guest
list, and these individuals were usually served in pairs.

The major difference between the way we need to serve feast, and the way it
was usually done in period, is this:  In period, the cooks made lots of
different dishes, and not everyone was entitled to, nor received, the same
dish.  In the CMA, we usually cook the same meal for a set number of persons.
Portion control is essential if the feast is going to be enjoyed by all
feasters.  The need for tight portion control is what drives most of us to
insist on servers taking food directly to individual feasters, this need for
portion control is driven by our budgetary constraints.  Therefore, since we
have to live with the budgetary constraints, and we need to use portion
control to do it, we may have to sacrifice a touch of periodicity in order
to stay within our budgets.

As to your second question, about royal weddings and such, I haven't got an
answer for that.  I tend to believe that smaller households would have fewer
servant-types, and the special meals which took place might be served as
homestyle as a regular meal.  But I also tend to conclude that budgetary
restraints happened in the Middle Ages, as they do now (a money economy being
a creature of habit), and it was possible that there were meals portioned out
in individual servings by servers, just as we do it today.  Most historians
tend to agree on the tendency in the Middle Ages for meals to be served for
two, under separate cover, for diners to share.  There's a lot of literature
out there concerning mealtime manners, and this sharing of the platter seems
to be pretty consistent throughtout the corpus.

Like I said before, a lot of the trouble which comes from serving feast in the
CMA comes not from the servers, but from the feasters themselves, who are
often totally ignorant of the way meals were served in the Middle Ages.  And
unfortunately, most of them don't want a history lecture before the meal, they
just want to be fed, so the instructions for feasting are often left off the
list of things to do for the Hall Steward.  We also have to contend with
modern ideas concerning health, and for some, the very thought of sharing a
platter of food with the person sitting next to them is enough to give them
gastritis.  ;-)

Anyone got any suggestions about how to educate the populace about feasting
particulars?  I've done "feast practices" in the past, but the Society is so
large now, it's often prohibitively expensive for a group to do this.

Wolfmother

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 09:58:46 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <ivantets at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - serving

Hello the List!

There is a wonderful (Dutch??) picture of a tavern, late period,
where 3 servers are evidently dealing with the entire hall full of
people - 2 servers are carrying what looks like a door, with _all_ the
food for that course on it (ie. one dish of each - presumably a runner
would be sent back for more when something runs out, so it remains
reasonably hot), while the other one apparently takes orders and serves
individually.  Anyone tried this?

Cairistiona

Date: Wed, 21 Oct 1998 07:58:42 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - serving

Hi from Anne-Marie
We are asked:
> There is a wonderful (Dutch??) picture of a tavern, late period,
> where 3 servers are evidently dealing with the entire hall full of
> people - 2 servers are carrying what looks like a door, with _all_ the
> food for that course on it (ie. one dish of each - presumably a runner
> would be sent back for more when something runs out, so it remains
> reasonably hot), while the other one apparently takes orders and serves
> individually.  Anyone tried this?

Our "boon day Meal" a few years back involved burley gentlemen schlepping
the food from the kitchen WAAAAAY up the hill on "doors" (we used banquet
tables with the legs folded up) down to the field where everyone gathered
to eat. Worked great! tho I must admit there was a bit of handwringing on
the part of the tired cooks as the fruits of their labors winded thier way
down the hill...what if they'd dropped it??!!!

FYI, there's pictures by Brugel of the same type thing...bowls being
brought in on long planks.

- --Anne-Marie
Madrone/An TIr
Seattle/WA

Date: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 17:26:23 -0400
From: James Gilly / Alasdair mac Iain <alasdair.maciain at snet.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A question on Servers

At 17:57 19-10-98 -0400, Micaylah wrote:
>Is it normal practice in other kingdoms to have Servers serving your feast?
>
>If not, how do you get around to delivering the food to the tables?
>
>Has anyone tried the "a person sitting at table comes and gets it for the
>table" technique?

In my experience (mainly in Atlantia), about half of the feasts use
designated servers and half use "someone from each table."  I've acted as a
server both ways.

At 12th Night, 1996, they called for servers from each table - but rather
than just "someone," the call was for specific persons - the one with the
biggest knife at each table, the one with the longest belt, the one with
the largest medallion, &c. 8)

Alasdair mac Iain

Laird Alasdair mac Iain of Elderslie
Dun an Leomhain Bhig
Canton of Dragon's Aerie [southeastern CT]
Barony Beyond the Mountain  [northern & southeastern CT]
East Kingdom

Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 14:10:48 EST
From: CONNECT at aol.com
Subject: SC - A plea for help with presentation

I'm looking for information on feast presentation--specifically how the food
was brought in.

It's very likely that I'll be doing the feast at our Barony's proposed event
in June--the Feast of St. Bacchus. (Yes, we know Bacchus is a Roman god.
It's a joke.)

The books I have are all receipes, with next to nothing about how the feast
was presented. I'm hoping to get help on finding sources for a "floating
feast" or a "moving buffet" arrangement.

What I have in mind is bringing out the food in a sort of parade, stopping at
the tables for people to help themselves, and then the food moves on. Everyone
would be able to help themselves to the food that interests them, and then the
dish moves on down the line.

The servers will be dressed for the occasion--keeping with the festive idea of
the whole day. I also believe this approach will keep leftovers down to a
minimum, as a large platter will serve more than 8-10 people.

Does anyone have information that such was done in period?

Yours very gratefully,
Lady Rosalyn MacGregor, PF
(Pattie Rayl)

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:47:54 -0500
From: Ceridwen <ceridwen at ccgnv.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Bones and shells

> How do you handle crawfish shells and barbeque bones etc. at a feast?
>
>        Helen

I often have a couple servers who will volunteer to be "beggars", who carry a
large pot between them and go around between the tables audibly "begging" for
"scraps for the kitchen slaves". It is considered a bit of "schtick" and
thoroughly enjoyed.

Ceridwen

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 14:43:26 EST
From: Gerekr at aol.com
Subject: Re:  SC - A question on Servers (ALSO: testing meals)

On 10/20/98 12:23 PM Morgan wrote:
>Buffet is a problem, because lines can get long; things will run out
>... or the early people will snag too much and leave nothing for
>later eaters; and how to handle people who come late and have not gotten
>firsts when some people are coming through for seconds.  ...

sheesh am I behind on this one... but I don't think anyone else has
mentioned the AnTir solution for this one...  Things stay neat and people
don't pig if you do (and announce it so everyone knows) REVERSE
precedence for the line -- if the Queen is going last, believe me, people
behave themselves like grown-ups!  This is an idea our uppers go along
with with no problem, it being a good opportunity to present a good
example of noblesse oblige, 8-).

Chimene
(who may be operating on antique custom, we haven't been very active
since the advent of our son, but this used to work a treat in Adiantum,
and was pretty widespread thru Kindom Central as I recall)

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:47:21 -0600
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - serving hot fritters

Some people definately had their own servers, but there are also banquet
paintings, some can be seen in costume books, where the servers are in
livery.  There's an Italian wedding painting in which the tables form a U
shape.  The servers offer food to the diners, working on the inside of
the U.  It's quite formal, unlike Brughel's peasants, who take the door
off its hinges to carry around lots of bowls.  There seem to have been
quite a variety of forms.  Authentic customs, other than inferred from
paintings, would be the directions in sources like The Babees' Book,
which I don't have.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:59:01 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - serving hot fritters

LYN M PARKINSON wrote:
> Some people definately had their own servers, but there are also banquet
> paintings, some can be seen in costume books, where the servers are in
> livery.  There's an Italian wedding painting in which the tables form a U
> shape.  The servers offer food to the diners, working on the inside of
> the U.

This is probably derived from the Roman concept of the triclinium,
except I assume the diners in the Italian painting are seated in chairs.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:39:32 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Serving Ettiquette

Thorunn asked:
>I am seeking information on the proper etiquette of serving at feast. 

Here's a wonderful source.

_Early English Meals and Manners_, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall.  Early
English Text Society, Original Series 32.  London:  Kegan Paul, Trench,
Trubner & Co., 1868.

It contains the following works:  John Russell's Boke of nurture, Wynkyn de
Worde's Boke of keruynge, The boke of curtasye, R. Weste's Booke of
demeanor, Seager's Schoole of vertue, The babees book, Aristole's A B C,
Urbanitatis, Stans puer ad mensam, The lytylle childrenes lytil boke, For to
serve a lord, Old Symon, The birched school-boy, and some other stuff.  

The Boke of Kervynge is especially useful, as it is instructions to a page
on how to serve at table.  There are details about handling table coverings
and napkins, how to carve trenchers, etc., etc.  It also sets up an
elaborate Order of Precedence, from an emperor on down.  I was interested to
see that former Lords Mayor of London had a specific spot.  I wonder what
would happen if we tried to assure former Lords Mayor of Pennsic a spot in
the Order of Precedence? ;>

Carolyn Priest-Dorman              Thora Sharptooth
capriest  at  cs. vassar. edu         Frostahlid, Austrrik

Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 9:14:20 -0600
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Serving Ettiquette

<capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)>
>_Early English Meals and Manners_, ed. Frederick J. Furnivall.  Early
>English Text Society, Original Series 32.  London:  Kegan Paul, Trench,
>Trubner & Co., 1868.

An excellent suggestion.  Furnivall is a good example of the sort of "good"
Victorian scholarship you can find:  Compiling together a lot of hard to find
sources, and keeping all the conclusions separate...

As a bit of information, in case it matters to you and these aren't the 
periods you are looking for, Furnivall's compilation compiles:
The Babee's Boke is from a abt.1475 Manuscript.
Urbanitis - abt.1460
The lyylle childrenes lytil boke or edyllys be - abt 1480
The young children's book - abt 1500
Stans puer ad mensam - abt 1460
The book of curtesie that is called stans peur ad mensam - abt 1430
The manners to bring one to honour and welfare - n.d.
Take what you find or what you bring - n.d.
The reward of a man who beggars himself - n.d.
How the good wijf taugte her dougtir - abt 1430
How the wise man taugte his son - abt 1430
Recipes - c1480-1500
A diatorie - abt 1430
Dietarium - abt 1460
Recipes - c1430-40
(Hugh Rhodes) The boke of nurture, or schoole of good manners - 1577
(John Russells) The Boke of nurture following Englondis gise - c 1460-70
Wynkyn de Worde's Boke of keruynge - c1513
Book of Demeanor - 1619
Boke of curtasye - c1430-40
Schoole of Vertue - 1557

And a lengthy postscript full of other, not dated, bits.

Marc/Diarmaid

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:08:05 -0400
From: "Jennifer Conrad" <CONRAD3 at prodigy.net>
Subject: SC - Feeding servers

Just a quick poll here, but when do others feed the servers for their feasts
(before/after) and why?

I feed my servers before the rest of the guests, so that they have an idea
of what they are serving to the guest, just in case anyone would ask them
what something tastes like.

In order to do this, I have the head server gather the other serves in the
feast hall about an hour before feast so that they can eat and help finish
setting the tables for feast.

Luveday

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:08:11 EDT
From: RoseThstle at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding servers

CONRAD3 at prodigy.net writes:
<< Just a quick poll here, but when do others feed the servers for their
feasts (before/after) and why?
  >>
Our Barony has had a tradition of feeding them before hand, mainly so they
won't get tired and hungry while serving others.

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:02:50 -0400
From: "Michelle Groulx" <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding servers

From: Jennifer Conrad <CONRAD3 at prodigy.net>
>Just a quick poll here, but when do others feed the servers for their feasts
>(before/after) and why?

I usually feed them before, and not always whats completely on the menu. I
agree, you're right in feeding them before, but this is not always do-able.
Each feast is different. I have also fed them after and even during. I don't
think I'll ever do that again though as I feel they didn't get a fair meal
by eating on the run.

Micaylah

Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:45:31 EDT
From: Tollhase1 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding servers

We feed the server before the rest. That way they are sure to get some.  Are
able to say what something is like.  And also, once feast is done final clean
up can begin.

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:47:44 -0500
From: "Margo Hablutzel" <margolh at nortelnetworks.com>
Subject: SC - Feeding Servers

As a server, I have always hated being fed before feast because (1) it's
usually at 4:30pm or 5:00pm and I'm not yet hungry, (2) I'm usually
finishing up something else, or it's the only time I have to talk with
friends who were busy with other things all day, who usually are not serving
so I won't see them until after supper, if at all (some leave instead of
staying), and (3) servers usually get some simple token meal instead of the
nifty things that come back from the tables, and I'd rather eat what the
sitting people eat than just roast chicken and bread.

As a cook, I hate feeding servers before feast because (1) we're usually
busy with last-minute preparations in the kitchen, (2) they're setting up
the hall (often in conjunction with taking down and evicting merchants) and
bodies are more useful doing something other than sitting on fannies and
stuffing faces, (3) servers are often busy talking with friends who have not
been available all day, or finishing up something, and are not available an
hour or so before service is to start, and (4) there are usually plenty of
leftovers, and they will eat those anyway.

So, the rule I have for servers, with the consent of the head server of
course, is that they show up about fifteen minutes before the hall opens, to
get assigned their jobs and tables and do a quick walk-through of any
necessary spiff stuff that the head server wants to promote.  There is a
table set up as out of the way of traffic as possible where servers can eat,
and we make sure there is either one of anything for that table (for
example, one tray of pre-feast munchies, one tarte, etc.) or that they
understand that things left on serving platters being brought back from the
tables are to come to them, and NOT get tossed in the trash unless they are
really grody.  They do get reminded not to stint on serving the diners in
order to increase their portions <s> as the bring-backs are increased by the
portions left in the cooking vessels, and the extra items made to ensure
that only pretty ones go out.

(What, you don't make an extra tarte for ever six to ensure that the
scorched/cracked ones don't go to diners?)

Morgan Cain * Steppes, Ansteorra

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:37:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Macchione <Michael.Macchione at widener.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Servers

On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Margo Hablutzel wrote:
> As a server, I have always hated being fed before feast because (1) it's
> usually at 4:30pm or 5:00pm and I'm not yet hungry, (2) I'm usually
> finishing up something else, or it's the only time I have to talk with
> friends who were busy with other things all day, who usually are not serving
> so I won't see them until after supper, if at all (some leave instead of
> staying), and (3) servers usually get some simple token meal instead of the
> nifty things that come back from the tables, and I'd rather eat what the
> sitting people eat than just roast chicken and bread.

As a server/cooks helper, my general take on this is that if I pay for the
meal, then I better get exactly what every one else is getting for that
payment.  ie. if everyone else gets a chair to sit in, then I had better
get a chair to sit it.

As a feasocrat, the way that I handle this, is to have the table(s)
closest to the kitchen reserved for servers (and the people they wish to
sit with as long as it doesn't get out of hand) assuming that they have
paid for the meal, of course.  The servers bring the food for each
course from the kitchen to the tables (including their own), and then go
sit at their table and eat, until I call them for the next course.
(checking drinks and removing empty trays every so often).

With 20-30 minutes minimum between courses, I've never had servers
complain about not having enough time to eat.

If the servers don't want to pay for the feast, then they can either
bring their own food, or scrounge through the leftovers.

I treat my kitchen helpers the same way, although the die-hard "couldn't
have run the feast without you" types I generally encourage to do the
leftovers, since I wouldn't want them out of the kitchen during crunch
time. :)

Kael

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:49:52 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Michael F. Gunter" <michael.gunter at fnc.fujitsu.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Servers

You post some interesting topics but there are a couple of items I would
like to comment upon.

> As a server, I have always hated being fed before feast because (1) it's
> usually at 4:30pm or 5:00pm and I'm not yet hungry, (2) I'm usually
> finishing up something else, or it's the only time I have to talk with
> friends who were busy with other things all day, who usually are not serving
> so I won't see them until after supper, if at all (some leave instead of
> staying), and (3) servers usually get some simple token meal instead of the
> nifty things that come back from the tables, and I'd rather eat what the
> sitting people eat than just roast chicken and bread.

Points (1) AND (2) I can't help you with. I usually serve the servers, musicians
and everyone who will spend the feast time working a full meal before feast
time. It usually involves all the courses unless there's something that is
impractical at the time. This serves two purposes. Those who are going to be
working during the feast won't feel ripped off (even though we usually charge
servers and such half price) and the other purpose is so the servers will be
able to answer questions of the feasters. If I give the servers some other meal
it will defeat both purposes.

> As a cook, I hate feeding servers before feast because (1) we're usually
> busy with last-minute preparations in the kitchen,

I know I'm busy but I also welcome the break and let the servers and
entertainers know they are appreciated. If things are too hectic I have a
trusted assistant take care of it. Another advantage to serving the servers
the feast is we can show them how we want it served. The quantities and order
or what goes on top of what etc...

 (2) they're setting up
> the hall (often in conjunction with taking down and evicting merchants) and
> bodies are more useful doing something other than sitting on fannies and
> stuffing faces,

We usually have a room or a couple of tables that have been set aside for feast
preparation which is also used for the servers.

(3) servers are often busy talking with friends who have not
> been available all day, or finishing up something, and are not available an
> hour or so before service is to start, and (4) there are usually plenty of
> leftovers, and they will eat those anyway.

If this is what the servers wish to do they are more than welcome but it's
nice to know they have a choice.

> So, the rule I have for servers, with the consent of the head server of
> course, is that they show up about fifteen minutes before the hall opens, to
> get assigned their jobs and tables and do a quick walk-through of any
> necessary spiff stuff that the head server wants to promote.

And I've served at feasts that have done the same and usually to good results.
But I've started doing it my way because there have been too many times I've
paid full price for a feast only to wind up working my butt off, not getting
more than a bite to eat and often helping with the cleaning. There was also
something irritating about being callously told "Oh well you can pick off the
plates when they come back."

I do admit that I do enjoy picking off the platters after they come back or
snitching the "undesirable" parts but it's nice to be appreciated as well.

>                                               ---= Morgan

Gunthar

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:29:09 EDT
From: MPengwyn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - naming tables?

kihe at ticnet.com writes:
<< They name the tables?  Whatever for? >>

Mistress Elaina, while back in Storvik, used a system of tokens for each
table at a huge event. Teach token had a different design on it - owls,
drekkars, etc - and as people signed up on the seating chart, they got the
token corresponding to the table their signed for. It kept us from having the
problem of 9 or more people signed up for a table for 8, and it let us know
exactly where the spaces were for late comers. Each server was assigned to
one or more tables - such as server one taking tankard and owl - and it made
everything run very smoothly.

Meghan

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 10:19:33 -0400
From: "THL Caitlin Ruadh" <ruadh at twcny.rr.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Ooops..hello!

> Upon which note; does anyone have general suggestions for serving in
> general, and High Table in particular?  My first attempt at serving, on
> Saturday, was...ahem...eventful, and I'd like to make sure my High Table
> servers don't have any similar problems.

Well, first and foremost, putting up your hair or at least keeping your body
between it and the candles is always a good place to start!  *duck*

(Alethea is a wonderful, lovely lady who lost what I take to have been
several inches of beautiful hair this weekend in a candle incident (up in
flames) while serving high table....)

Seriously though, keeping hair, sleeves, skirts, etc out of the way really
is a good place to start.  If not the candles, it's still pretty
embarrassing to end up with your sleeve in someone's plate, particularly
with sauces involved.  Or to trip on your skirts and spill the food on
someone, which with my luck would inevitably be the highest ranking person
in the most embarrassing place!

And at the very least make sure the servers know what the dishes are - there
is nothing more embarrassing then the server to high table not being able to
tell the King if he can eat whatever is being served (which is really an
issue, since our current King is a vegetarian....)

Caitlin Ruadh, who missed the sight but caught the smell, and who merely
wishes she had long enough hair to have to worry about such things!

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:51:37 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - High table servers--was Re: Ooops--hello!

>...Seriously, though, is there any efficient method for organizing
>inexperienced servers (at the moment I have two lined up, which is
>two more then I expected to have in advance), that preserves both the 
>ceremony and the integrity of the feast?

Educate every server that you do know about in advance. Just before
the feast is not the time to try to explain everything to all the
servers.  Explain to those you do expect, then a quickie explanation
and the instruction do what so and so does will at least be available
to the last minute volunteers.

Write out your plans for service and for schtick if schtick is
expected. If you aren't the cook, be sure you and the cook are on the
same wavelength before making plans with anyone else! Keep the
description to a few points, not long drawn out instructions lest you
overwhelm and frighten the servers away. E-mail or give a copy to the
servers you know of.  Ask for and expect feedback and adjust your plan
accordingly.

My "plan" as was given to my head server and my daughter in advance,
was nothing more than a list of priorities.

1. No one should want for water to drink.  Ice water available before
feast and kept available during feast.
2. Courses served as groups of dishes as a result of learning how much
having dishes trickle out one by one annoys the Baron.
3. dirty dishes brought back before more food sent out.
4. leftovers dealt with as we go.
5. someone will be washing up during feast.
6. serving is more than carrying food out and empty trays back.
servers will be helping prep the food beforehand and deal with food
brought back to the kitchen.

I had some hoped for schtick and had discussed it with the head
server. It involved serving a dragon subtlety and the baron demanding
someone taste this new and dangerous food.  His page is quite a little
actor and would have stolen the show risking his life for his Knight
by tasting.  But the page didn't show and the dish that would prompt
it turned into a simple roast chicken because of modern complications,
so, it didn't happen.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:49:55 -0500
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Re:Serving tips, was Ooops--hello!

You want to let the servers know what serving utensils will go
out with what dish, and which dishes and utensils *must* be brought back
to the kitchen at what time, for washing and re-using.  The servers
should ask, if they have assigned tables, whether there is anyone there
with specific allergies--i.e., where is Dennis the Decadent sitting, so
he doesn't get the alchohol version of the Fruit in Wine?  Our vegetarian
King's table will be pretty easy to find.  ;-)

        They need to be told how necessary it is to repeat, ad nauseum,
"The ingredients are posted on/by the kitchen door."  every time they get
questions.

        Don't know if it was done in period, as I don't have a copy of
The Babies Book, but you should serve from the right, take from the left.
 A bow is made each time they cross in front of the thrones.  If you have
nice linen dishtowels, one over the left arm is handy for wiping up
spills.  Carrying around to each table a bowl of warm water, preferably
rose scented, and a towel, is nice to let diners dabble their fingers
clean before feast and between courses.  If there is soup or something
that is to be dished out of a large container, they *must* understand how
much they are allowed to give each diner.  Otherwise, ignoring the cook's
"That's ALL there is!", they will ladle it all out to the first third,
and have none for the remainder of the guests.

        Giving them a book of matches is nice, or a fire-starter, so the
diners who forgot can have their candles lit.  Even if the herald
announces the dishes, people won't be listening, so the servers need to
know the correct pronounciation.  2 well-trained servers per table is
good to have.  Yeah, right!

        They need to know the location of the garbage cans in which
diners can empty their slops.  This should be done for the High Table.
They need to know if any dish washing accomodations are being set up at
feast's end.  From your experience, knowledge of the whereabouts and
operation of a fire extinguisher is a Good Thing.

        You can help them out as a Kitchen Steward by posting your menu
with a time line, and utensils needed.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 13:18:40 -0500
From: "Paul Shore" <shore at dcainc.com>
Subject: SC - Re: accommodating at feasts

> As you are the second person to ask this, I hope that HRM Gunthar,
> Baroness (soon to be cooking Laurel) Clarissa, perhaps Bear or other
> Ansteorra headcooks can answer. I haven't, and don't ever plan to, cook a
> feast as the headcook. When I'm in the kitchen it is as scullery hand or
> pot washer. So I'm not sure how the logistics are done.

The servers are usually sent out to fill drinks first.  They are told to find out how many persons at each table are eating feast.  We then use a chalk
board in the kitchen to track each table and how many are at each table.
(This also gives us a chance to check total to make sure the gate has not
oversold.)  As each course is portioned, we adjust the serving platters, etc.
for each table.  Pies are the worst to handle this way.  When the servers are
preparing to carry a course out, they tell the portioner 'how many' they need
and are directed to a platter containing that amount.  Some things are served
ala rus, that is the bowls are brought on platters to a central pot for filling
with soup or salad.

Other notes.  It is extremely rare for us to take advance reservations for feast
in this area.  The few times I have seen it attempted, it has not worked well.

Arglwydd Aeddan ap Trahaearn
Shire of Mooneschadowe
Kingdom of Ansteorra

Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 12:35:50 -0800
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - serving whole chickens at feast

Bonne of Traquair wrote:
> the best prices are still for whole chickens when I buy fowl for
> >feasts, but sometimes it's more economical to get parts. I know that the
> >parts are generally more appreciated at the feast table, since people don't
> >have to hack their meat off the bird in the dark...But the whole birds LOOK
> >a lot more Medieval. It's a tradeoff.
> 
> Is it really more Medieval to send the bird or roast out to table whole?

Yes and no...

> I've read that
> A. People ate with spoons and/or fingers and also had small personal knives
> with which to cut their own food smaller

Spoons and fingers, yes. Small personal knives, yes and no. They are
mentioned in the manners books (instructions on keeping them clean,
etc.) but in the illuminations they are neither small nor personal. Take
your pick.

> and
> B. the squires and servants have great big knives and a duty to make the
> food ready for the table.

Also yes and no. The service staff have great big knives and are
supposed to use them. That is part of their job- particularly the
carver. HOWEVER...

In the earlier illuminations, you see pictures of whole birds on the
tables, but no one tearing or cutting at them. They appear intact. They
might have 'just' been served- I don't know. In the later illuminations,
you see specific scenes of whole birds on the tables, and the carver
(with the towel over his shoulder) kneeling before the table and carving
the bird right there ("They'll make the guacamole right at the table!"
*grin*). What we don't see is the other tables. They usually only show
us the high table. And the manners books really don't address the issue.

What I can say for sure, is that it is likely that birds, joints, etc.,
are carried to the high table, served whole, and carved at the table. We
have pictorial evidence, and there are instructions in the manners books
to teach young men to do this carving.

What we don't know is what went on in the rest of the hall. I would
guess that they haven't the personnel to carve at table for everyone.
Maybe the smaller pieces are served there.

What we did at Investiture was made the whole pieces (whole chicken, big
joint of meat, etc.) for the high table, and I cajoled, er, sweet-talked
one of our knights into serving as carver. The rest of the hall got the
other portions, pre-cut, etc.

> I've combined these bits into the idea that by the time the food is placed
> in front of the guests, it has already been divided into portions, if not
> bite-sized pieces.  Makes for more elegant, less messy eating and serving.
> Sending out a whole bird for the diners to have to WORK at getting their
> serving from seems not quite the thing.  Perhaps it would stay intact from
> kitchen to the sideboards where someone cut it before serving it.

Well, as I noted, if it was carved at table, it was not done by the
diner (that I know of). 
 
'Lainie

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 16:21:42 -0000
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SC - serving whole chickens at feast

Bonne of Traquair wrote:
> Is it really more Medieval to send the bird or roast out to table whole?
> I've read that
> A. People ate with spoons and/or fingers and also had small
> personal knives with which to cut their own food smaller
> and
> B. the squires and servants have great big knives and a duty to make the
> food ready for the table.

At last year's Lammas feast I sent the pork roast out to the tables cut up
in 1 inch cubes. My source for that was Scully ("The Art of Cookery in the
Middle Ages" p.172) who says:
"Where a boiled or roast joint of meat was part of a course, it was normally
presented already cut into 'gobbets' or bite sized pieces in order to
facilitate the diners' job. For any further cutting the diner could hold the
meat in his or her fingers under his or her knife. At the head table alone a
carver might exercise the honour he had been awarded with his office, that
of reducing the host's meat to smaller more manageable chunks."
Unfortunately he doesn't give footnotes for that assertion, but I trust him
enough to believe he has a reason for it.

As 'Lainie says, the manners books don't really directly address the issue
(other than how to carve at High Table), although there are instructions in
several that if you are sharing a plate with a woman to cut her meat up for
her (as the poor creatures weren't very good at it!).

This is how I intend to serve the roast lamb at Crown next month, except for
a leg for High Table, where one of our knights and a squire have kindly
volunteered to do the full hand-washing/serving/carving thing. It should be
cool to watch!

If you are interested in learning more about the serving and carving
aspects, the best book is 
FURNIVALL, Frederick J. THE BABEES BOOK
This contains several instructional 'books' of manners - Aristotle's A B C,
Urbanitatis, Stans Puer ad Mensam, The Lyttle Childrens Lytil Boke, The
Bokes of Nurture, of Hugh Rhodes and John Russell, Wynkyn de Worde's Boke of
Kervynge (Carving), The Booke of Demeanor, The Boke of Curtasye, Seager's
Schoole of Vertue, some French & Latin Poems, and a foreword on Education in
Early England. 
Oxford Early English Text Society, 1997 (Acanthus Books sells it)
or  Greenwood Press, 1969. 
They're both reprints of the Early English Text Society Publication, first
issued in 1868. 

Lucretzia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2000 15:31:14 +1100
From: Lorix <lorix at trump.net.au>
Subject: Re: SC - serving whole chickens at feast

Bonne of Traquair wrote:
> I've combined these bits into the idea that by the time the food is placed
> in front of the guests, it has already been divided into portions, if not
> bite-sized pieces.  Makes for more elegant, less messy eating and serving.
> Sending out a whole bird for the diners to have to WORK at getting their
> serving from seems not quite the thing.

I am not commenting on the periodness of whether the bird was served hole, but
more on the practicability of same.  I have served whole birds & portions of
chickens & been at other feasts where whole chickens were served as opposed to
pieces.  It has been _my_ experience that often, because the diners have to work
at cutting up a whole chicken rather than picking up a couple of pieces of
sliced meat or pieces, they simply don't cut up the chicken & much leftovers are
returned to the kitchen.  Some tables haven't even touched the whole chook.

Whereas, if stuff is in piece that are easy to pick up or serve, it is more
likely to be gobbled.  This appears to be the case with other foodstuffs:  ie
the easier it is to pick it up or serve or eat (provided it tastes OK ;-) the
more likely it will be completely eaten.

Lorix

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 05:14:53 EST
From: MPengwyn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Feast Fees in Ansteorra

One problem I noted often in my feast steward days was large groups insisting 
on sitting together at one table when it had been repeatedly announced that 
service was for tables of 8. Even with the use of sign up sheets and floor 
plans, there was often a table with 11 people sandwiched in and across the 
room a table of 5. When a deputation was sent to the kitchen to demand extra 
food, we researched the problem and re-seated the extra people, often to much 
grumbling. Mistress Elaina once issued tokens for feast that bore a design of 
some sort on it so that people with that specific design knew they sat at the 
corresponding table. (Owls for instance or drekkars...each table different.) 
It helped immensely.

Meghan

Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 18:13:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: cclark at vicon.net
Subject: Re: SC - Serving question

Melbrigda wrote:
> ...  If I have a full staff that is made from members of 
>my group, their payment would be to eat first (or at least first of 
>each remove) and ...

I once had the misfortune to be serving at a feast where this plan was tried
out. The "servers" ate first while everyone else waited. It was a very
embarrassing situation that I would not ever want to experience again.
Getting to eat first is, in my experience, *not* a reward for serving. It is
a punishment.

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark

Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 09:30:23 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: non-messy, period, dayboard-type food

d'Aubrecicourt writes:
> Even beef jerky will leave grease on the fingers.  Fruit will leave sticky
>  from the juice.  If I put as much work into a project as your average
>  needleworker, I would definately want to wash my hands after eating
>  anything.  Personally, I would arrange some way to have hand washing
>  available, even if you need to heat the water.  Then you could serve any
>  finger foods you want :-)
  
I agree with this post wholeheartedly. The only way your going to have food 
that doesn't touch you is to eat it through a straw!

you could have finger bowls available on the table with a small towel 
available, or even a table set aside to wash. There is a wonderful 
handwashing recipe in Menagier. I've been incorporating handwashing into my 
feasts, large and small, and it is always met with pleasure. Usually the 
washing is done before eating, but never mind that.

For one feast, I couldn't manage to get towels for all 150 feasters, so I 
bought rolls of really good paper towels, the quilted kind (sounds like a 
commercial). I put 8 into a flat bowl (think soup) and filled with warm 
handwashing water. Each person could take a towel, use it and dispose of it. 
Sort of like using baby wipes only more period. 

Here is my recipe (albeit simple) and the original,
Menagier de Paris found in Cariodocís Miscellany Collection

"To make water to wash the hands at table: Boil sage, then strain the water, 
and let cool until it is luke-warm. Or instead you can use chamomile or 
marjoram, or rosemary and cook with the peel of an orange. And also laurel 
leaves (bay leaves) are good for this."

Recipe

1 Quart of  water (if at Pennsic, used bottled water or it will turn brown)
10 fresh sage leaves, or a small handful of chamomile, marjoram or 
rosemary(you can use tea bags here or cheese cloth, to make the straining 
later a non issue)
1 peel of an orange (preferably a Seville orange, eat the rest) or rose water 
( this was the choice as one of the feasters has a severe allergy to citrus)
1 bay leaf

In a pot, bring the water to boil and add the herbs and peel, if using rose 
water add at the very end or it will lose itís aroma. Allow to cool then 
strain. Bottle and keep (if you need to) for a few days.

Simplified Instructions;
When readying to use the water, heat gently or add hot water to warm it 
slightly. Using a pitcher and basin, keeping  a towel over your shoulder, 
allow the person to hold their hands over the bowl while you pour. They 
should rub their hands together. When finished, offer them the towel. Where 
there is no table to set down the bowl this best works with two people, one 
to hold the bowl, the other to offer the towel and pour the water.

Hauviette

From: Nambeanntan at aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 22:22:27 EST
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Handling special diet needs at feasts
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

mark.s.harris at motorola.com writes:
> Thanks for the clarification. However, this still doesn't affect
> my questions about how to handle these special situations, nor
> my comments on how making such special dishes complicates the job
> of the headcook,

Stefan,
       When the publicity goes out on an event I cook for, I ask that anyone
with dietary concerns contact me.  In the last six events I was contacted
only once before the event. The gentle couldn't eat pork so I made sure she
had enough chicken to compensate. That was the only special request so I was
her server for that course.

If I get asked before lunch about dinner I will work around requests. I don't
pre cook food or use prepackaged foods very often so that's not a problem.
How I do it with individual dishes varies. I'll ask if there are any others
this person will be seated with and if the altered dish would work for them.
Then I choose a server I've worked with before tell them the plan, show them
the table and person(s).  If it is just one person and I have to do single
servings I tell them to come to the kitchen and pick up the dish themselves
or have someone at there table do it.  I will not tie up a server to cater to
one individual.  Funny thing, when presented with the fact they don't get a
personal butler most peoples allergies/illnesses clear up.:)

Annan

Subject: Re: Off list: handling special requests...
Date: Wed, 09 Jan 2002 19:16:51 -0600
From: Gorgeous Muiredach<muiredach at bmee.net>
To: "Mark.S Harris"<Mark.s.Harris at motorola.com>

>Once you've decided to make these special dishes, just how do you
>make sure they get to the appropriate person(s) without being
>to disruptive or giving the wrong person the wrong dish.

Ah!  Yes, of course, makes sense <smile>  Sorry I wasn't answering the
right question :-)

The best way to handle that kind of thing, and I must admit I never tried
it at a feast, is to use playing cards.  Used to do that at camp when I was
cooking for upwards of 450 kids, and there were requests for variations on
the meal.

Again, it goes back to planning <smile>  Get some playing cards.  Cut them
in half.  Whether a person has signed up ahead or at the last minute for a
different dish, organize a way for them to get the half card.   It can be
done at Troll when they check in, or it can be done at the time you meet
with them to talk about it.  Have a paper list of the cards available, then
beside it list which request it is for.

This goes on the assumption that one serving staff is assigned to one
table/section for the whole feast.

When the server goes to the section where there is someone with a card,
they then know who to serve what, based on the "chart" you have listed with
the half cards.

It only *seems* cumbersome, it actually works fairly well.

Gorgeous Muiredach
Rokkehealden Shire
Middle Kingdom

Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 09:09:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast Service: thanks and a question

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
> Now, I would like to hear from people how _they_ handle formal feast
> service in their area, if they do it, and what they consider good feast
> service, as I've volunteered to coordinate the feast service for an event
> in June and need all the suggestions and help I can get.

Feast service according to me:

Servers get half-price or comped meals, if at all possible. I may have
mentioned before--it doesn't have to be the feast dishes, it can be
something else easily heated up, like lasagna or stew in pans.

Servers eat early-ish--if feast is at 6, then servers eat at 4:30 and can
take their time eating and still have time for setup. Servers can help set
up the tables but this isn't strictly necessary.

Head server coordinates serving pieces together with head cook, so that
both of you know if those serving bowls will need to be washed right after
the first course, etc. I like to lay everything out on tables in the
staging area, so I know if I have enough serving spoons for the rice dish
in the second course without having to wash the ones used in the first
course. Of course, it helps if the group has dedicated feastware.

Head server has the useful list of courses and what ingredients go in each
dish, so that the servers don't have to go bother the head cook.

Head server acts as intermediary between servers and kitchen.

If there are enough servers, some of them get to be beverage
servers--their job is to make sure people have enough to drink,
independent of the food servers. Children are good at this, it makes them
feel useful and important, and they don't have to try to carry heavy
platters of hot food.

Having matching tabards for servers is really spiffy. A number of groups
have service tabards for their feast servers, some as simple as
parti-colour in the group's colors, others with silkscreened devices. I
know when my household volunteered to be feast servers, the other servers
wanted to know if we had extra tabards to lend. Tabards also work very
well as aprons to protect the clothes of the servers.

Margaret FitzWilliam

Date: Fri, 23 May 2003 10:38:30 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Help at Feasts (was: Feast steward at the 
crossroads)

We have had some bad luck with "helpers" at feasts. Originally, they
got in free. Their names were at The Gate and they got checked off
the list.

Unfortunately, a number showed up, got in free, but somehow never
made it to the kitchen...

So a new policy was instituted. Helpers came in, they paid for the
feast, their names were checked off a list at Gate. The cook also had
a list and noted who worked in the kitchen, and those who actually
helped were reimbursed at the end of the feast.

That way we didn't lose money on those who didn't do an honest day's 
work.

Another thing i've done with my feasts is have a separate table in
the hall for my helpers near the kitchen door most distant from High
Table. When a course is served, they get to go out and sit and eat
and watch or participate in the entertainment. I can pop out of the
kitchen and get folks if i need them, so i'm not abandoned. Heck, i
may even sit down for 15 minutes during a course if all is going
smoothly.

Anahita

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:27:17 -0400
From: Solveig <nostrand at acm.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] table service in Spanish Islamic and Jewish
	cultures?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Greetings from Solveig! There are a number of religious and other customs
practiced by the different faith communities. The most important one for
Jews is washing both before and after the meal. This requires a rather
large open mouth vessel without a spout which the washer can fill, pick
up, and poor water over their hands. There should also be a clean towel
available for hand drying. There are some other rules having to do with
how bread is handled. Finally, there are of course the dietary laws.

Muslims also have dietary laws to consider. That said, all three 
religions
are world religions and table service, the nature of the menu, &c will
strongly reflect the local culture. Therefore, you should begin by picking
a specific time and place such as pre-reconquista Spain where all three
faith communities lived together. Then, develop your feast around the
food and customs of that time and place.

The drizzle of honey bit is specific to Rosh HaShannah. Normal practice
involves course kosher salt which is prinkled over the bread or you
can dip the bread in salt. If you are specifically interested in Friday
nights, then there are two loaves of bread which are covered with a cloth
while a blessing is said over wine before the bread is picked up and thanked.
The bread is then divided, salted, and passed out to those present.
There are of course rules specifying how to divide the bread, how to
pass it out, and how to eat it. You can find this stuff in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch. Essentially, the bread service recalls the offering of the korban in the temple (may the temple service be speedily restored in our day, &c.).
-- 

					Your Humble Servant
					Solveig Throndardottir
					Amateur Scholar
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Barbara Nostrand, Ph.D.         | Solveig Throndardottir, CoM, CoS   |
| deMoivre Institute              | Carolingia Statis Mentis Est       |
| mailto:nostrand at acm.org         | mailto:bnostran at lynx.neu.edu       |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2004 05:23:14 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Buffet?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach lilinah at earthlink.net:
> So, like, does anyone have any idea if there's a "period" word, in
> any Western European language, that means sort of like what "buffet"
> means today?

You might research [further, as in, don't take my word for it] the
Elizabethan sideboard or banquette, which is literally a piece of
furniture and, by extension, a bunch of foodstuffs served
thereon/therefrom. This would normally involve sweets, fruits, both
fresh and preserved, and light, palate-ey cleansers, that sort of
thing, and might be set up at a dance or other similar, celebration,
and as the name implies, off to one side of the room, to keep the
center clear for other activity. Sources like Markham have pretty
extensive instructions as to what kinds of things go on a banquette
and how to set it up.

One of the logistical problems you're probably going to run across in
trying to justify a buffet is some opposition to the idea that nobles
should serve themselves, or walk around in search of food, under
normal circumstances, and this opposition would come from the servers
as well as the nobs. The buffet you're probably thinking of (with or
without sneeze shield ;-)  ) is more an 18th-century thing, I think.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 08:02:42 -0600 (MDT)
From: Martina C Grasse <grasse at mscd.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: German Feast Formats, Digest, Vol 13, Issue 3
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Greetings from Gwen Cat

I have translated one section, the 4 banquets for kings (an early and a
late meal for a feast day and same for a fast day).  They are webbed at:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASkings1.htm

I did a feast based on selections from said banquets and the originals,
translations and redactions for that feast (along with pictures) are
webbed at:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASnovfeast.htm
Unfortunately Rumpolt rarely gives any special instructions for fancy
presentations, just "bring it warm to the table, so it is good and
welltasting."

I also have the book on Tafelzeremonie.  I have not taken the time to
read much of it, but if there are pages or phrases you would like
translated please let me know, I will try to assist as time permits.  I
THINK it dealt mostly with the tableware (pretty silver sailing ship
salt cellars and such, but there might be more to it.)

In Service (and still shaking Grand Outlandish SANDgrit out of EVERYTHING)
Gwen Cat
who has 4 days of use-it-or-lose-it vacation to take in June and HOPES
to get caught up on lots of things including webbing Volkers
translations

PS, I would translate Krug as pitcher rather than pot or crockpot
(which here is an electric slowcooker), but it is a recipe I have
always wanted to try (OH and I think I know a potter who might help
GRIN).  And Im very curious about the chicken in the jar ....

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:27:25 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] German Feast Formats
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Having given the question more thought, here's an approach that will work
given time (think weeks not hours) and a good sized library with ILLoan
facilities. An academic collection would be better.

The really major problem is the not reading the language which makes even texts
like the one Wanda mentioned (Die Offentliche Tafel) questionable for your purposes.
It's not a common book either. Only 13 libraries in the world report
holding a copy.
The review is up at---
URL: http://www.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=128901081995926.
Volker mentioned Marx Rumpoldt which is catalogued as Marx Rumpolt.
The facsimile is available and there's an edition up online in German.
Gwencat's translation  is a long term project.
There are 90 works listed under Cookery Germany --Early Works to 1800 and the
only one listed as being in English isn't going to be of help. [The Germans tend to dump everything in under the subject heading "Kochbuch" which doesn't help when it comes to identifying materials addressing a certain century.]
The obvious place to start of course would be with the Deutsche Bibliothek
Database which is the union catalog of the records of National Library
of Germany or the Deutsche Bibliothek.

But the question is...can you manage that if you don't read German?
Can you manage even to locate books on Amazon's German division?

So what I suggest you do is --- Get a good General hsitory of Germany or Austria
of the German states. Then....
Choose a timeframe, an area or region or a court or a prince. Determine of
course if you want Catholic or Protestant (it does matter).
Then start reading everything you can about that court and era and region.
This will and should include biographical material, agricultural, economic etc. Expand out from the initial court accounts through the footnotes and
bibliographic materials.
Loan in everything that might offer so much as a paragraph on the topic.
Eventually you'll need to narrow down to time of year and event you want
to recreate.

Johnnae llyn Lewis
(if and when I make it to Vienna next month I'll look there for German
materials.)

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 2004 10:58:30 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Buffet?
To: Cooks within the SC <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

My thought on this is that it also started with the furniture and
then went to the food placed on the furniture an then went
to being a style of service or dining where one went and got one's
food off the furniture. (I obviously need more pepsi this am. I micrograted
one finger last evening so I am typing with a band aid in place this am
too.)

OED--
Buffet is a blo or strike (blind man's buff) or as a verb to beat back;
a hassock or stool; A sideboard or side-table, often ornamental, for the disposition of china, plate, etc which is 1718 for the earliest quotation. Or A cupboard in a recess for china and glasses.which is 1720 for the earliest quotation. and a refreshment bar which is 1792.

Sideboard is much older--

A table (esp. for taking meals at) placed towards the side of a room,
hall, etc.

     * 13.. E.E. Allit. P. B. 1398 Þenne was alle þe halle flor hile
       with knytes, & barounes at þe side-bordes bounet ay-where;

By the 17th century this is mentioned--
1679 Hist. of Jetzer Pref. A b, They saw him every day..Dine at a
Side-board Table by himself.

Sideboard might work well as a term.  (Buffet might be better understood
by those that aren't into the terminology of this all.)

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:25:29 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking & Serving...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Our available kitchens generally have between 2 industrial burners
> available (really four, but only 2 accessible with big pots) and 4
> residential burners (2 stoves of 4 burners each, with only 2 per stove
> accessible with modest stock pots) and 2 industrial to 4 residential
> ovens. This works fine for our size of feasts.

The kitchen I normally wind up in has a six burner commercial stove with
commercial oven, a commercial stove with grill top  and commercial oven, a
commercial convection oven, small Hobart, commercial slicer, about 20
different pots from 5 to 20 gallons, three or four 14 inch cast iron
skillets, etc., etc. etc.  The kitchen will handle more than the hall can
seat.

> So i'm wondering, how the heck do you cook for 400!?!? There wouldn't even
> be enough room in most kitchens for 3 courses of 3 dishes each for 400,
> let alone trying to cook that much food in one.

A lot of parallel preparation and scheduling of resources.  Fortunately,
most feasts that I prepare run in the 200-250 range.

> And - plating? You mean, you actually serve each course onto each diner's
> plate in the kitchen? Doesn't this take an awful lot of time?

In the case of Gunthar's feast, Sokol Hall has steam tables setting before
the bar.  It is also a very cold hall, which means that any delay means the
food may arrive cold.  Plating directly to the plates from the steam tables
is as efficient as setting out a messe and it means the food arrives at the
table ready to eat rather than needing replating.

The hall I normally use, it is easier to serve by messes.

> We generally have 8 people sitting per table - there is one server for one
> or two tables, who just bring out serving dishes with enough of each food
> for all the diners. The food gets on the tables quickly, then people help
> themselves.
>
> Anahita

Consider how many serving pieces you need when cooking for 400.  Consider
the effort needed in cleaning those pieces.  Consider that you have to have
enough waiters to handle all of the tables.  The larger the feast, the more
difficult it is to bring all of this together.  It is why I tend to consider
feasts exercises in logistics rather than exercises in culinary artistry.

Bear

Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:50:49 -0500
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: KASF feast
To: "Irmgart" <irmgart at gmail.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I will definitely have to consider that. Of course, then I may start
> to run into running out of dishes to serve sauces in :)
>
> -Irmgart

For one of my courses, I was serving 3 sauces with the pork roast, and,
although it wasn't particularly period looking, (but face it, neither were
the rest of the serving dishes) I used those disposable plastic bowls, in
colors, which color coded the sauces, and, with a bit of planning (thanks
for doing it Andrea ;-), allowed the sauces to be presented in a colored
bowl that either contrasted with or complemented the sauce served in it.
They're not terribly expensive, and you can get at least 4 colors- white,
red, yellow, and blue.

Saint Phlip,
CoD

Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:55:21 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Feb 23, 2005, at 7:07 PM, Nancy Kiel wrote:
> Something to look for (hint, hint, researchers): period
> descriptions/instructions for serving pies

  From "The Boke of Keruynge" by Wynkyn de Worde (Peter Brears, ed.)

[from facsimile]
All bake metes that ben hote open them aboue the coffyn & all that ben
colde open theym in the mydwaye.
Custarde cheke them inche square that your souerayne may ete therof.
Doucettes pare away the sydes & the bottome beware of fumosytees. (?)
Fruyter vaunte fruyter saye be good better is fruyter pouche apple
fruyters ben good hote: and all cold fruyters touche not.

[Brears' translation]
All hot meat pies: open the crust at the top, and all cold, at the side.
Custard: cut it in inch squares for your lord.
Doucettes: pare away the sides and the bottom; beware of indigestible
parts.
Meat fritters and sage fritters are good; pouch fritter is better.
Apple fritters are good hot; but do not touch any cold fritters.

- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2005 19:08:49 +1200
From: Adele de Maisieres <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question of serving
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Speaker To Idiots wrote:

> This is what I, as head server, feel the job entails:
>
> coordinate with head cook about setup of feast hall set up feast hall
> figure out serving paraphenala, plating order, etc. instruct servers
> liaison between the hall and the kitchen
>
> The cook should be done at this point, unless the kitchen staff is
> helping plate things. We have a volunteer coordinator as a staff
> position for our events, so that there's one main point of contact for
> volunteers--in the past, I'd be handling that part of it too.
>
> In this specific case I ended up coordinating the toasts, but only
> because I got proactive about it.
>
> So how do other people/places handle it?

That about jives with what I (a cook) do with head servers, except that
I sort out the presentation aspects (serving equipment and plating) with
the kitchen the staff, so that the servers don't have to do any food
handling/messing around.

Adele d'M

Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 12:16:36 -0400
From: <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] A question of serving
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Excerpts from "The Feast Planner's Handbook" by Christine Seelye-King
(Mistress Christianna MacGrain)

Organizing the Service Plan

	There are several options available for organizing your service plan.
Consider the size of the dining hall, it’s location nd traffic flow from
the kitchen, number of diners and placement of tables, theme of the event and meal.
Options include:

	Buffet - Setting up tables for the food to be placed on.  Diners line up
and serve themselves from the buffet line.  This works well for meals that
are served over a longer period of time, such as brunches, day boards, or
other ‘eat when you are ready’ scenarios.  At meals where everyone sits down
to eat at the same time, there is a vast difference in the dining times of
the first and last people through the line, not to mention getting the dregs
of the dishes!  Two or more serving lines can help alleviate this problem.
This style works better for smaller groups (40 or below) if everyone is
eating at once.

	Tableside - Servers bring food on platters or other serving vessels to the
table and serve each diner individually.  Soups are often served this way.
If there is something that needs to be done to a dish at the moment of
service (as in lighting a flambé, cutting meat, adding a sauce) training
servers to do this tableside can create a very memorable experience for 
the diners.

	Family Style - Platters delivered to the table containing the entire
portion of food for every diner there.  Serving utensils are added and
dines serve themselves.

	“One server from every table...” - a method of serving Family Style
service.  A designated server or individuals in rotation get up from each
table and collect the foods portioned out for them.  Ensures that every
table gets served but cuts down on the amount of server education you can
do.  A Feast Menu on the table helps in this situation.

	Covered Trencher - An SCA-ism for a pot-luck dinner, where members all
bring a dish to serve at least 6 people.  Very effective for one-day events
and socials.  Themes and recipes can be distributed in advance so that cooks
can try new dishes and share them with the group.  Divisions can be along
the lines of “English personas bring the meats, French personas bring the
breads,  Middle Eastern personas bring the desserts...” or some other such
method.  This can be combined with a partial feast, such as the group’s
Feast Planner cooks the main meat course and provides the beverages, and the
diners bring everything else.

	Kitchen and dining area are separated by a large distance - this adds
difficulty to the job, but nothing a good plan can’t handle.  Arrange for
hot food to be kept in larger pots until served at the dining area, or even
inside coolers to retain heat (or cold).  Arrange for carts or dollies, or
even trucks to transport the food.  Create fragile presentations at the
dining area, don’t try to transport anything but the individual components
if possible.

Servers

The people who get your great food to the tables at seated feasts.  You will
need about 1 server for every 8-12 diners to really take care of your
guests. You may choose a service style that asks for one server from every
table, or select individuals ahead of time.

With enough advance time, you might consider livery for your servers.
Simple tabards, arm bands, or even hats could identify them, and with enough
time and resources they could all be clothed alike!

  It is the Peer’s prerogative to serve High Table.  Consider asking local
Peers or those from your pre-reservations if they would like to serve.
Whether using Peers or not, try to arrange at least one server in advance
for the High Table so they know what special things will be going on and
will be able to help make things go more smoothly.

Children enjoy serving at feast, and can be utilized for items like
beverages or bread, things that are not too heavy or spill-able.

Depending on the formality of your service style, you may choose to feed the
servers at a separate dinner ahead of the main feast. This gives them a
chance to familiarize themselves with the food, as well as taking care of
their hunger so they aren’t starving while everyone else eats in front of
them!

It is very important to educate the servers on the food they are serving.
Months of research, preparation, trials, sweat and effort can be wiped out
in an instant if, when a server is asked:  “What is that?”, they say:

“I don’t know”,

or worse -

“Uh, some kind of green stuff?”

		!!!

Hall Steward

   An effective Hall Steward will be an individual that is organized, has good
communication skills, has the ability to delegate and is successful at
drafting help, and has an understanding of SCA feasting.  They should also
be someone that is calm and level-headed under pressure, and hopefully 
good sense of humor.

   The Hall Steward will work as a liaison between the Feastcrat and the Autocrat. The Hall Steward will need to have an understanding of the facility,
including the basic set-up of the hall (and if there is a standard way the
hall is to be set up when the group is done leaving it), and the number of
tables and chairs available vs. those needed (this number may need to take
into account other daytime event needs such as classes, gosling activities,
kitchen rep needs).   Set-up may include two or three changes, for Friday
night and Saturday daytime activities, Court, Feast, and Revel. They will
need to determine whether the set-up is ‘traditional’ or something
inventive.  Light, air, and sound may need to be taken into account, as well
as pathways, kitchen and exit access, Royalty requirements, garbage and
clean-up preparations.

Their job may start as early as Friday night, with an inventory of tables,
chairs, and other fixtures you may be using in thehall.  Then, set up for
Merchants, gaming, conversation, etc. can take place.  Sign-up lists for
volunteer help may be set up in the hall or at the Troll.  If there is a
Friday night Traveller’s Fare served, the Cooks in charge of that meal will
need to coordinate with the Hall Steward for their needs.  Saturday morning
breakfast Cooks may also interact here.  Once the basic plan for the event
is laid out, the Hall Steward will work in the hall to ensure that
everything happens when it is supposed to, just as the Feastcrat works in
the Kitchen to make sure that dinner is served on time, in the right order,
and at the right temperatures.   The Hall Steward and the Feastcrat will
work together to coordinate the rhythm of the meal, the length of breaks,
and the overall presentation of the meal.

As a safety note, the Hall Steward must be well versed as to where to find a
mop or towels in case of spills, and he or she must be mindful of a place to
have guests store their feast baskets.

The Hall Steward may or may not be in charge of Servers.  If there is
someone else in charge of Servers, they will work under the Hall Steward.
The Hall Steward will need to have an understanding of the menu and the
service needs.  You may choose to have a dinner for Server first, to
familiarize them with the foods, and assure that they have the opportunity
to sit and eat before they start working at serving everyone else their
dinner. There may also be a separate meal for children, which may need
planning as well.

The Hall Steward will also work together with the Entertainers on theatrics,
special events or games, and with the Royalty in the event They wish to open
a dinner Court.

First time Foibles: Many hall stewards don’t leave enough space for walking
between tables. They forget that when people are sitting in a chair at a
the dinner table, the back of the chair is between 18” and 24” from the edge
of the table.  If dinners are sitting back to back, there needs to be at
least 4 feet between tables for the diners to sit with comfort as well as to
be able to get into and out of their seats.

	Also, be mindful of our disabled friends, who will need to have even 
wider aisles.

Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 01:05:12 -0300
From: Micheal <dmreid at hfx.eastlink.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] How meals are served n period
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

  Okay out here on the east coast we do full service single items most of the
time. Lately the number of table dishes has increased. Table dish one dish
for a sitting of eight type. But service takes Half an hour for full 5-6
dishes for 80-120 people. 30min. between removes and again 5-6 dishes 30
min. You imply have to work on the timing of service we found and getting
enough servers ahead of time. Our feast always have a Serve-o-crat or 
Head waiter if you prefer.

  Da

Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 17:36:10 -0500
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 32, Issue 49
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> ISTR that servers in livery are either very late period, or out of
> period entirely.

Servers would be grooms and gentlemen in waiting, and other employees of
the host. Generally, clothing or lengths of cloth were part of such
servants' hire, though it might not match. Since most people had very
few suits of clothes, presumably those would be the clothes they would
serve in. I checked OED, and the use of the term livery for distinctive
clothing of employment (or guild membership) does date to period:

13.. E.E. Allit. P. A. 1107 And alle in sute her liurez wasse. 1375
BARBOUR Bruce XIX. 36 Thre hundreth and sexte had he Of squyeris, cled
in his liverye. c1386 CHAUCER Prol. 363 An haberdasshere and a
Carpenter, A Webbe, a Dyere, and a Tapycer, And they were clothed in o
lyueree Of a solempne and a greet fraternitee. 1389 in Eng. Gilds (1870)
21 Ye bretheren and sisteren of yis gilde..shul han a lyueree of hodes
in suyte. 1399 LANGL. Rich. Redeles II. 79 That no manere meyntenour
shulde merkis bere, Ne haue lordis leuere {th}e lawe to apeire. c1440
Gesta Rom. xv. 51 (Add. MS.), xlti knyghtes of oone leveraye. 1463 Bury
Wills (Camden) 41 Bothe my colers of silvir, the kyng's lyfre. 1473 J.
WARKWORTH Chron. (Camden) 14 He..wered ane estryche feder, Prynce
Edwardes lyvery. 1480 Wardr. Acc. Edw. IV (1830) 124 A gowne and a hoode
of the liveree of the Garter for the Duke de Ferrare. 1485 CAXTON Paris
& V. 14 Every baron gaf hys lyverey that they shold be knowen eche fro
other. 1522 WRIOTHESLEY Chron. (1875) I. 13 The kinge and he ridinge
both together in one liverey. a1548 HALL Chron., Hen. VI, 173b, The erle
perceiving by the livery of the souldiors, that he was circumvented.
?a1550 in Dunbar's Poems (1893) 319 {Ygh}e noble merchandis..Address
{ygh}ow furth..In lusty grene lufraye. a1592 GREENE Geo. a Greene (1599)
F1b, Two liueries will I giue thee euerie yeere, And fortie crownes
shall be thy fee. 1622 BACON Hen. VII 58 Liveries, tokens, and other
badges of factious dependance.

>   But huge chunks of meat carved at high table were not common.  Most
> of the recipes we have for meat tell us to start with a roast, then do
> things to it.

Carving meat at table, however, is mentioned consistently in all the
manners texts. Looks like one 'mess' (serving for one table group) for
each of the higher tables would be carved at table. Birds in particular
were carved. (see _The Little Babee's Little Book_, Libro de Cuoco, etc.)
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 

Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 18:15:22 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 32, Issue 49
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jan 17, 2006, at 5:36 PM, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

> Servers would be grooms and gentlemen in waiting, and other employees of
> the host. Generally, clothing or lengths of cloth were part of such
> servants' hire, though it might not match. Since most people had very
> few suits of clothes, presumably those would be the clothes they would
> serve in. I checked OED, and the use of the term livery for distinctive
> clothing of employment (or guild membership) does date to period:

I STR that in the introduction to Scully's edition of Chiquart,
there's an account from the household books of the Duke of Savoy,
featuring the names of various employees in the households of the
Duke and the Duchess, and their respective salaries and liveries. Of
course, this is using the term in an English translation, but the
concept appears to be period.

>>   But huge chunks of meat carved at high table were not common.  Most
>> of the recipes we have for meat tell us to start with a roast,
>> then do things to it.
>
> Carving meat at table, however, is mentioned consistently in all the
> manners texts. Looks like one 'mess' (serving for one table group) for
> each of the higher tables would be carved at table. Birds in particular
> were carved. (see _The Little Babee's Little Book_, Libro de Cuoco, etc.)

True. It's also frequently illustrated in places like the Bayeux
Tapestry. In addition, you can look at the menu references to gros
char (which is just a big ol' hunk-o'-meat, like beef, pork or
mutton), sliced into manageable pieces and served with sauces. Some
of the sauce recipes you see in medieval sources omit references to
which meat they're to be served with, but in fact appear to be sauces
for those big hunks of meat.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 20:30:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Theater, roasts and historic serving
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

>> From: Pat <mordonna22 at yahoo.com>
(In reference to my post)
> ISTR that servers in livery are either very late
> period, or out of period entirely.

Full armorial livery, I agree; it's both late and
rare. But originally, 'livery' meant 'provided
clothing that came with the job', not a full
clone-gang thing. We've had good results just from
giving everyone matching caps and armbands (and asking
them to wear tunics); cost maybe ten bucks.

>   I agree about good theater, and I think we need
> more of it in our feasts.
>   But huge chunks of meat carved at high table were
> not common.  Most of the recipes we have for meat
> tell us to start with a roast, then do things to it.

Of course that's what we have recipes for; plain
roasts of the cook-plunk-carve variety required no
recipe. We do have, however, many varied manuals of
instructions for domestics- and they explain quite
consistantly how 'to carve before the Lord'. You don't
give instructions on how to do something that will
never be done.

There are also plenty of plain roasts in the feast
lists. It simply didn't occur to people to give
instructions for such simple cooking; how many modern
cookbooks give instructions on how to make a
cold-cereal-and-juice breakfast?

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Alisond de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:31:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Cat Dancer <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 32, Issue 49
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

>> ISTR that servers in livery are either very late period, or out of
>> period entirely.
>
> Servers would be grooms and gentlemen in waiting, and other employees of
> the host. Generally, clothing or lengths of cloth were part of such
> servants' hire, though it might not match. Since most people had very
> few suits of clothes, presumably those would be the clothes they would
> serve in. I checked OED, and the use of the term livery for distinctive
> clothing of employment (or guild membership) does date to period:

The Rules of Robert Grossteste (13th c) talk about making sure the
servants are wearing the household livery: "The (sixteenth) rule teaches
you on what clothing your men ought to wait on you at table. Order your
knights and your gentlemen who wear your livery that they ought to put on
that same livery every day, and especially at your table and in your
presence to uphold your honour, and not old surcoats, and soiled cloaks,
and cut-off coats."

According to the household accounts I've been reading, members of the
household would be wearing clothes of the same fabric according to their
place in the social order, i.e., a group such as valets would get a
specific quality, amount, and color of cloth, but the particulars of the
cloth varied by group. So you'd have the knights in blue, and the valets
in murrey, and so forth.

Margaret FitzWilliam
Nordskogen
Northshield

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 11:04:17 -0300
From: Micheal <dmreid at hfx.eastlink.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] feast booklets
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

- can't trust the heralds, ya know?
>
> Giano

    You to some times I have to wonder , but what can you do. Not argue with
the herald  just before the feast.  I have had soups announced as sauces,
Sauces announced as soups. Pastry as non bread wheat products, and Chickens
as over the expiry date eggs. Roast as some kind of meat parts, and Salads
as escapees from the garden patch. Which is great fun until you get asked
for recipes several days later on the Bee puked glassed drunken ham, instead
of Pork Roast stewed in Honeyed Wine.

  Cealian

Date: Sun, 21 May 2006 13:24:13 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Documentation "Fun"...was "Potatoes
	andpersonalissues"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> How do you square this with allergies? I allways post a menu somewhere
>> pulic, which lists the name of the dish, the source, and what it
>> contains. Sometimes I have a "restaurant style" description as well.
>> That way people can know that the strawberryes contain almonds, that
>> the cawdel of saumon do not (I tend to nick the fast day alternation of
>> "milk of kine or almond", reverse it, and use to get around the dreaded
>> 5-verions-of-everything syndrome whenever needed)

For this, you employ the servers -- for each course, tell the servers (or
have the head serveer do this) what each dish is and instruct them on how
you want it to be presented (You know, "ok, now, when you get to the table,
show the platter to the table and tell them what dishes are on it"). It may
not get the info to every table, but it will to most, and if you establish
the habit, the servers will start asking. Another possibilitie is to herald
each course -- have a herald announce that the course is being served and
call out the names of the dishes. This allows folks to match the dishes in
a course with the recipes in the documentation.

toodles, margaret

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:39:00 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] odd feast I went to
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I was at the same feast...and viewed the way it was served with mixed
emotions.  On the one hand, Sir Xenophon is such a fabulous cook that, had
the courses come out the way they usually do, I might have "pigged out" on
the first, and been too full to taste the lamb and pork which came out
last.  But it was somewhat intimidating to have that much food on the table
all at one time.  So I dunno....not having it sliced or with serving
utensils is frequently done in Atlantia, so that didn't really bother me...I
prefer to supply utensils and serve the meat sliced, with the possible
exception of High Table.  But I know that many, if not most cooks  
here do not do this.

Kiri

On 4/19/07, Olwen the Odd <olwentheodd at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I recently (last weekend) went to an event called Night on the Town.  The
> feast staff was headed up by a fellow named Sir Xenophon Vaughn who I
> understand wanted to do certain things on the menu way out of range of the
> budget so he footed the remainder of the bill himself.  Very interesting
> though.  One person from each table was called up to serve the table.  Then
> Sir Xenophon came out and addressed the assembled crowd and announced that
> there were five courses and all would come out at the same time because the
> kitchen staff also wanted to sit down to eat.  All the serving trays were
> the decorative but disposable round metal type trays.  It began with a bowl
> of bread slices of different hearty breads (no butter at least at our table)
> the first meat one coming had roast beef surrounded by medallions of beets
> and turnips roasted.  The second was chicken served on top of asparagus, the
> third was lamb roast on top of peas (I may have the chicken and lamb mixed
> up in order and which veggies), the fourth was a pork rib roast on top of
> pickled red cabbage.  None came out sliced or with serving utensils.
> Although I like everything that was on the menu, I, for one, did not like
> the idea of all this stuff on the table (under ceiling fans) at the  
> same time.  What are your thoughts on this type of serving?
>
> Cariad a heddwch (love and peace)
>
> Dame Olwen the Odd
> Barony of Bright Hills
> Kingdom of Atlantia!

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:44:12 -0400
From: Jehan-Yves <jehan.yves at signofthetiger.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] odd feast I went to
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

This is the style of service that Sir Xenophon is known for. He has
done many feasts for Barony Lochmere over the years and his food is
always excellent. Some people do like the service done that way. I
agree that often it is difficult to fit the serving dishes for a
three or four dish course on the table at once.  Five courses must
require setting some of the dishes (or peoples table settings) on the  
floor.
JehanYves
(who favors three, three dish, courses)

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:53:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Lady Orla Carey" <orla at lady.sca.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] odd feast I went to
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

We were also at this feast and I have to say it was not my favorite.  The
veggies were all served cold and seemed to be more of a garnish then
anything else.  On the other hand some people like that type feast and to
his credit the event flyer did list that the feast would be "meat heavy"
so I guess vegetarians knew not to plan on eatting feast.

As far as I can tell no one got butter for the bread and this seems to be
the thing I see commented most about this feast.

The way we handled the dish overload issue was that the bread bowl ended
up on our cooler (luckily we were at the end of a row of tables so we
could have the cooler nearby).  As each dish was passed people took what
the wanted and as soon as we could consolidate dishes we did - ending up
with one platter with the remains of all the dishes (except the peas which
ended up in someone's bowl) and the other platters stacked underneath.

Orla

> Did you get a bed with this feast?  Sounds like my Gran'ma's boarding
> house.  Now, I know how she got that much food on the table, 'cause she
> had a honking huge table, but how did y'all make everything fit?
>
> Most sites we use have those wonderful 6-8 ft. folding tables.  Once you
> get eight people, and all their accoutrement at each table, there's not
> enough room for five platters.

Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 18:10:31 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] odd feast I went to
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Hmmm, I was not present at NOTT, though many of my friends with Gardiner's
> Company were.  It sounds like it was an attempt at a more period feast than
> is commonly done in the SCA, but maybe not.  The bread served alone, the
> vegetables as garnish, the dishes sent out together instead of acting as
> seperate courses.  All of these things fit my understanding at least of
> late period meals than our usual practices.

<clipped>

>  If you served
> the food all at once for authenticity, thats one thing, though not  
> usually practical.
>
> Ranald de Balinhard

Serving everything at one time isn't a very period practice.  Since feasts
were meant to cover an extended period, sending out individual dishes (a
primarily German practice, if the references are correct) or sending out
groups of dishes as courses would be more likely.  Bread would have been on
the table and would be replenished during the meal.  The table would be
cleared by the almoner and his waiters between courses.

The idea of limiting the dinner to three courses of multiple dishes appears
to be attrributable to Catherine de Medici during the period of her regency
for her son.

From the recipes, I would say late period meals are more likely to have
seperate vegetable dishes than early period.  At least more attention
appears to have been given the veggies then.

Bear

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:42:37 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A question of service
To: <mary.doug at pierocarey.info>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Communal or common service, based on the methods of the Roman Era Christian
communes, although I doubt it was called that in the Middle Ages or the
Renaissance.  In practice, it probably would have been limited to religious
communities such as monestaries and abbeys where all were equal before God
(just some more equal than others).

The flunkies or lackies are generally referred to as waiters.  Waiters
usually fall into two classes, gentle waiters (pages. squires, the lord of
the manor attending the king) and yeoman waiters.  Waiters serve the tables
under the direction of the steward of the hall (often a knight, who acts as
the host of the manor on behalf of the lord) and the senior waiters and
clear the tables under the direction of the almoner.

Your serving hatch is "the bar."  The bar marks the division between the
cook's domain and the domain of the steward (or possibly butler or pantler).
Meals and portions that are sent across the bar are accounted for and
compared to the menus from and quantities requisitioned by the cook from the
clerk or the wardrobe (treasurer, exchequer, privy purse, etc., etc.,  
etc.).

Bear

> In mundanity, there are names for different types of meal service.
> Russian, French, Buffet, Family-style, etc.  I've read of different
> styles of service for feasts in the SCA, but I can't recall that I ever
> really heard any of them _named_.  So, my local group's next feast is
> probably going to be the type where you delegate 1 person from each
> table to go fetch the serving bowl or tray from the serving hatch.
> We've always had enough flunkies, er, lackeys, er, um, volunteers to
> fetch & carry before.  This is the 1st time we've tried it this way, and
> we don't know quite what to call it.  Can anyone tell me a good term to
> use?  Is there a recognizable SCAdian term for this style of service?
> When the head cook asked me this question today, I was at a loss.  The
> only idea I came up with was "cooperative service", but I was just
> making it up out of my head.  Anyone got any ideas?
>
> Yours, in puzzlement,
>
> Maria from Alderford/Mary Piero Carey

Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 07:59:20 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] serving unusual foods
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On May 11, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<< But do you ever serve some medieval dishes that might strike people  
the same way? What dishes?  How have you handled it at feasts you've  
cooked? Have you just expected the feasters to figure it out?  
Perhaps it's simply the matter of which sauce goes with which meat  
or food item?

Perhaps it is the matter of serving a whole, small bird. Not all  
feasters have been faced with figuring out how to eat such a thing  
before. Or eating a whole, or almost whole fish with most of its  
bones intact. Or sending a large chunk of bird or beast to the table  
and expecting those at the table to be able to portion it out? (Not  
to mention this is probably not a period way of doing it). How did  
you handle things?

In some places medieval foods/feasts have a bad reputation.  
Sometimes it is because the feasts in those areas have been  
inedible. Sometimes perhaps it has been something like this, the  
unfamiliar. What can be done to solve this? >>>

I'm not sure if there's a guaranteed solution, but I've been rather  
sensitive to this problem for many years; it's one of the reasons,  
along with the frequently inherent food waste that sometimes comes  
with improper carving and service, I'll occasionally go for the Less  
Period Option, all other things being equal: which is more grating for  
the period ambience; the [for example] square block of ham or the bone- 
in ham nobody knows how to carve? I'd posit the latter. Not that  
there's a whole lot of baked ham presentations in the SCA (or are  
there? there probably shouldn't be...)

But in general, I try to teach a very basic carving class when I can,  
using both modern culinary-standard techniques and any of several  
period sources on carving and service. The hope is that eventually  
there'll be fewer feast tables with nobody present at them who knows  
how to deal with a whole fish, say, or get eight small servings out of  
a whole roast duck. If you're one of those people who can deal with  
it, it's always nice to take at look at the next table to see how  
they're doing, and offer assistance if needed, or even the loan of a  
better knife. And yes, carrying a decent knife for carving is a good  
thing, too.

As head cooks, taking a minute to discuss course details with servers  
can be helpful in preventing the kind of problems Stefan mentions. And  
then, of course,  presenting food in as close to a plate-ready state,  
in portions with sauces and garnishes as much in place as is  
practicable, is also helpful.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 12:02:09 -0400
From: Bill Fisher <liamfisher at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] serving unusual foods
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

When I did feasts, I did my best to present the food in a ready state to try
to minimize the waste.
I had already seen people stare blankly at uncut pies, uncarved hunks of
meat, etc at other feasts
I had worked on, so I tend to try to make my presentations as "user
friendly" as possible, when I can.

But, all that being said, you have to work with what you have on hand.   If
you don't have the serving vessels
to do a pre-prepped delivery, then maybe you can set up some servers with
roaming or regional carving stations.

Even do the dreaded buffet style feast...

I've already wheeled a vat of soup around a feast hall on a kitchen cart and
served people that way.  (it was a
lot of fun too, well, only if the cart has good wheels...wasn't my feast, I
was just helping)

Cadoc

Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:34:11 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] serving unusual foods
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

-S commented:
<<< case in point - Coronation feast on Saturday.  Most people it seems did not
understand that the sour cream that went out was supposed to be eaten with
the pierogi.  It probably should have waited for the pierogi but there was
room on the first platter so I sent it out at the beginning of the course
and the pierogi followed. >>>

I think the solution in that case is to tell the servers, or at least  
the head server who should pass it on, "The sour cream is or the  
pierogis which will be out shortly". I've seen entire courses come  
out, out of order, and some dishes get shifted from one course to  
another or not come out at all. It happens. And I don't have a  
problem with sending out something like this sour cream when the  
space is available. But get the word out. Otherwise, folks are going  
to be trying to figure out what the sour cream is for and they might  
find another use for it, on food or not :-), and not have any left  
for when the food it was meant for comes out. Thank you, Susan.

Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
    Mark S. Harris           Austin, Texas           

Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 20:43:09 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] serving unusual foods
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-S commented:
<<< case in point - Coronation feast on Saturday.  Most people it seems did not understand that the sour cream that went out was supposed to be eaten with
the pierogi.  It probably should have waited for the pierogi but there was
room on the first platter so I sent it out at the beginning of the course
and the pierogi followed. >>>

Its better to have the sauce first, than to have it appear long after the item it was meant for had been devoured.

Ranvaig

From: john heitman <gottskrieger at GMAIL.COM>
Date: March 30, 2010 9:20:09 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] Feasts

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:25 PM, Mark Schuldenfrei <mark at schuldy.org> wrote:
<<< A lot of what troubles SCA cooks in getting food out fast, is
that they lack both staff and facilities - in my opinion. >>>

Your opinion is dead on with my experience moving from professional to
SCA kitchens.

Church kitchens are set up for cafeteria style serving at best.
Individuals come to the window for an individual plate of food.  There
is no butlers pantry (the area where food is plated and held at
temperature for distribution) and the flow inside the kitchen is not
designed for more than three people to work.

But just as important is that the traditional server at an SCA feast
is NOT a professional. There is substantially more to quality serving
than getting the food from the kitchen to the table, and knowing a
decent low knee bend.  Good service is almost a well rehearsed ballet
between the kitchen and the table, with servers knowing where other
servers are in the dance. This is not something that 15 minutes before
feast can create. Especially if the kitchen changes every meal.  Very
few people are truly interested in creating a serving team as part of
their persona.

But having said all that, I will say that seldom do I eat at other
social groups' functions where the food and the service are as good as
what we produce regularly with our volunteers.  And that includes the
groups who use professional caterers.

Franz

<<< Mostly staff.  It takes a good bit of time to evenly portion
out food.  It can be made faster if you have a lot more
space and materials - but it's still slow.  (And a lot of
SCA folks don't know the tricks that professional chefs have
shown me in dishing stuff out.)

Also, professional chefs often have hot-boxes and other food
storage facilities that rental kitchens lack, or that we
don't know how to use.  So, rather than starting to plate
at 5 for a 5:30 feast, we start to plate at 5:30.  We get
behind, and we never catch up, and we don't have staff.

Next time you get a chance, observe that most SCA kitchens
look like at service time.  There's a reason why, in most
professional kitchens, the head chef sits "at the pass"
and expedites food delivery.  It's really tricky.

I've been in charge of "table service" for meals at
events, and while I can't claim perfection, I can
say that there are LOTS of ways to speed up the
transition from stew-pot to plate.  But it's a bigger
job than most folks think, and it is something often
overlooked.

Speaking in general, not just to you Eringlen - next
time you anticipate a feast, split your jobs.

Provisioner - purchases and brings all the food to
the kitchen.  Ingredients.

Kitchener - cooks the food.

Galley - cleans all day and after the feast.

Head Waiter - handles the plating and delivery of
food to the tables.

       Tibor >>>

Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 23:13:42 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Whole or In Parts:  Was amounts of food per
	person

Bear wrote:
<<< Whole chickens are great for appearance or in specific whole chicken 
dishes, but on a couple of occasions, I've been the only person at the 
table that knew how to carve a whole chicken.  I also am of the 
opinion that thighs provide the most meat for the least cost. >>>

And, may I echo that a whole chicken would be unlikely to have been put 
on the period table and left there.  The diners would not have carved 
it; it would have been carved for them.  Lower ranking tables would most 
likely have been given a dish with meat already prepared.  The high 
table might have been given a whole item with the carver then preparing 
bits and pieces for the high-ranking guests.

Putting a whole bird - or a large, uncarved bit of meat - in front of 
diners is (to me) one of the common errors when SCAdians try to recreate 
a medieval feast.

Alys K.

Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:37:14 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Whole or In Parts:  Was amounts of food per
	person

<<< Putting a whole bird - or a large, uncarved bit of meat - in front of
diners is (to me) one of the common errors when SCAdians try to recreate a 
medieval feast.

Alys K. >>>

I actually served a whole turkey to the head table last feast I did.  It was 
presented to the Baron who carved the bird and presented the meat to the 
Crown.  It was a bit of showmanship with my stag handled Solingen carving 
set to add a little more pizzaz.  The other tables were served cold sliced 
turkey ala Rumpolt.  There would have been too much wastage serving whole 
birds.  The kitchen staff and the servers picked the head table bird clean 
after it came off the table.

Just as I was buying for the feast, turkey breast showed up for 98 cents a 
pound, so I had about six turkey breasts and three turkey hens (to provide 
dark meat, drumsticks, wings, etc.).  I used about 70 pounds of raw turkey 
to feed 160 relatively inexpensively.

Bear 

Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 07:10:06 -0400
From: "Jim and Andi Houston" <jimandandi at cox.net>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Whole or In Parts:  Was amounts of food per
	person

On 5/04/2011 3:37 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<< Putting a whole bird - or a large, uncarved bit of meat - in front of
diners is (to me) one of the common errors when SCAdians try to
recreate a medieval feast. >>>

I like using whole animals as presentations/subtleties. Put the whole
critter on a fancy platter and decorate it, present it to the nobles and
parade it around the hall, then whisk it back into the kitchen, carve it
very quickly, and serve it. I have done this twice with large whole fish
(mahi and salmon) and once with a 60 lb pig and it went over very well.

Madhavi

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