cookbooks3-msg - 5/31/10

Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes. Messages posted between 1/98 and 7/99.

NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-msg, cookbooks2-msg, cookbooks4-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

[See cookbooks-msg for cookbook review messages posted before September
   1995. See cookbooks2-msg for reviews posted between September 1995 and
   January 1998 and cookbooks3-msg for messages later than 6/99]

Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 17:25:38 -0800
From: "Crystal A. Isaac" <crystal at pdr-is.com>
Subject: SC - King's taste comments

Sabia wrote:
major snip
> tomorrow.  Any additional comments are welcomed.  An additional question I
> have is how accurate are the redactions in To the Kings Taste and To the
> Queens Taste?

My big problem with _To the King's Taste_ is the one recipe for
hippocras is really badly done. She does not quote the full source and
uses ingredients (orange zest for example) not mentioned by the source.
However, she does include a beverage recipe unlike most medieval
cookbook authors, so I suppose I shoudn't complain. It's just that her
hippocras recipe is misleading to people entering contests. It's very
difficult to judge someones' documentation whne they have been mislead
by an authority.

Crystal of the Westermark

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:28:01 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Any comments?

>An additional question I
>have is how accurate are the redactions in To the Kings Taste and To the
>Queens Taste?
>
>Sabia of St Kildas {sabia at unm.edu}

Sass doesn't try to be 100 per cent authentic, but she does give you the
original recipe.  Compare her recipe to the original to determine
accuracy.  Frankly, I use her books often, although I may prepare the
recipe differently.

Bear

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 21:56:51 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Any comments?

re: Barbara Wheaton's book "savoring the past"

I love it. She does a neat job of talking about the theory of WHY people
ate what they did. Also, the bibliography is great, using books in French
that I've never heard of and would kill to get my hands on.

I don't have much experience with the recipies she reconstructed in the
back of the book, but any modern book on food history that even makes an
effort at all gets kudos from me.

- --Anne-Marie

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 14:10:09 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: SC - Nice Site

http://www.bahnhof.se/~chimbis/tocb/FrameRecipes.htm

I don't know if this web page comes from someone in the SCA, but it is
very nice work with actual RESEARCHED recipes!

Murkial

Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:40:32 -0500
From: waks at world.std.com (Jane Waks)
Subject: Re: SC - Parchment, Hungarian, Titles, A Quest, and a Reminder

At 14:48 18-1-98 +0000, Alys Katharine wrote:
>A Quest:  Of _Ovverture de Cvisine_ she writes, (p. 31) "It is the
>first cookbook in French that is not a reworking of medieval recipes;
>it contains an international collection of recipes both for cookery and
>for confectionary.  What is, to the best of my knowledge, the only
>extant copy, was acquired in 1958 by the Bibliotheque Royale Albert Ier
>in Brussels.  The only other recorded copy was destroyed in a fire
>during the Napoleonic wars.  Its owner had published a partial and
>faulty description of the volume before its destruction."  She goes on
>to say that Marx Rumpolt's _Ein new Kochbuch_, Frankfurt, 1581, is more
>comprehensive.  A quest???  Would anyone want to find out if
>_Ovverture_ has been printed?  Translated?  Webbed?  Still at the
>Bibliotheque??

I have a copy.  From the title page:
"Ouverture de Cuisine, par Lancelot de Casteau.  Presentation
du livre par Herman Liebaers. Translation en francais moderne
et glossaire par Leo Moulin.  Commentaires gastronomique
par Jacques Kother.
1983, De Schutter, Anvers/Bruxelles"

The ISBN, which is given elsewhere, is 90-70667-05-3

There is a 33 page preface, then a facsimile of the original
1604 text, only some of the pages of the facsimile are
numbered but there are approximately 160 pages.  That
is followed by a translation, with commentaries, into
modern French, and a glossary.

Yes, the *entire book* is in French.  I've been planning on
producing an English translation, but Life has intervened,
so far.

As far as I know, it has not been Webbed.  I believe that
some folks in An Tir have worked out some of the recipes,
but I'm not in touch with them, so I don't know how far
they've gotten.

                        Caitlin Davies
                        Carolingia, East Kingdom

Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 00:20:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - a new (?) cookbook

On 22 Jan 1998 RMcGrath at dca.gov.au wrote:
> This book is to be published soon.  I wondered if anyone had seen a review
> copy yet?
>
> The Medieval Kitchen : Recipes from France and Italy
>        Odile Redon, et al / Hardcover / Published 1998
>        Our Price: $22.75 ~ You Save: $9.75 (30%) (Not Yet
>             Published -- On Order)
> (as seen in Amazon Books' list)
>
> Rakhel Petrovna

I have this book in the original french (bought it at the cluny three or
four years ago).  assuming that the translation is done creditably, it is
an -excellent- book.  it has well tested recipes.  i have used several.
the illustrations are quite nice and a little different from the standard
fare that we see repeated to death.  the main sources are taillevent and
le menagier and i believe that she uses the pichon edition for the
originals of le menagier.

This is a tall, thin 'museum' book that you are likely to see in various
languages in castles and museums all over europe and the uk.

elaina

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:34:53 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - cooking without fire, among others

I have been reading through the Buoch von Guoter Spise, and
I really don't think it's reliable as a translation.  There are
several inaccuracies in the definitions of common words.  The exanple
I will use is 'encourage' for 'ruehren', which usually means 'stir'
or 'beat'.  I wasn't sure of my own knowledge (I completed an
honours degree in Middle High German at university but that was back
in 1992) so I checked with the expert at the University of Cape Town
and he checked the available literature.  There is apparently no
precedent for the translation of this word as encourage, but it has
meant stir or beat since before AD 600.  In MHG, it was used
idiomatically, but always as moving something forcefully (physical,
transitive).  As far as I can tell, though, the gist of the recipes
has not been affected.  However, please please please don't get me
wrong.  As a cook I have no quibbles with Mistress Caterina, and
honour her for the huge amount of work that she has done.  If anyone
can put me in touch with her so that I can discuss this matter, I'd be
grateful.

Cairistiona
IVANTETS at BOTZOO.UCT.AC.ZA

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:25:39 +0100 (CET)
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Re: Catalan source

It seems, that the following item could be the Catalan text, you are
searching for (x/, x\, x~ for letters with accent):

   Leimgruber, Veronika (ed.): Mestre Robert, Libre del coch.
   Tractat de cuina medieval (Barcelona 1520).
   Segona edicio/. Barcelona 1982 (Biblioteca Torres
   Amat 4).

If memory serves (far away from my library), there seem to be
several spanish (castilian) prints of this text. I know of the
following editions or reprints:

   Ruperto de Nola: Libro de Guisados. Edicio/n y estudio
   por D. Pe/rez. Madrid 1929 (Nueva Biblioteca de Autores
   Espan~oles 9).

   Ruperto de Nola: Libro de cozina. Introduccio/n, notas y
   vocabulario de C. Iranzo. Madrid 1982.

   Ruperto de Nola: Libro de guisados manjares / y potajes
   intitulado libro de cozina. Segunda impression.
   Logron~o 1529. Reprint Madrid 1971.

See also the paper of Allard in Lambert (ed.),
Du manuscrit a\ la table

Thomas Gloning

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:51:36 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - Book question

I found a reference for a book and I was wondering (though I hope I
didn't miss a review on this one already posted) what people thought of
it.

Take a Thousand Eggs or More: A Translation of Medieval Recipes from
Harleian MS.279, Harleian MS.4016, & Extracts of Ashmole
MS.1439, Laud MS.553, & Douce MS.55, with over 100 Recipes Adapted to
Modern Cookery Cindy Renfrow / Other Format / B&N Price: $27.00 - Regular
discounting not available on this title.(Available in 4 - 6 Weeks /
Special Order)

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:53:43 +0000
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Book question

And it came to pass on 11 Feb 98, that jeffrey s heilveil wrote:

> I found a reference for a book and I was wondering (though I hope I
> didn't miss a review on this one already posted) what people thought
> of it.
>
> Take a Thousand Eggs or More:
[snip]

I own both volumes, and am happy to have them.  "Thousand Eggs" gives
you the original recipe, the recipe re-worded into more modern
English, and (in volume 1) a redaction.  They are indexed (and as a
librarian, I regard that a A Very Good Thing), and have a glossary
of medieval cooking terms.  I have not tried any of the redactions,
though they look good.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:51:32 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - Book question

>And it came to pass on 11 Feb 98, that Cindy Renfrow wrote:
>
>> Hello!  Just a quick note to let you know that the new, improved,
>> corrected, etc., etc., 2nd edition of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More"
>> will be printed in a few weeks.  Yay!  :-)
>
>My Lady,
>
>I own the two-volume spiral-bound version (the first edition, I
>presume).  May I ask how the second edition differs and what the
>improvements are?
>
>Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba

Hello!  The major changes are:
- - re-written most of the book
- - completely re-proofread & corrected the originals & translations
- - more than 20 newly adapted recipes added to Vol. 1
- - improved some of the 1st ed. adaptations
- - added the quantity & suggested number of servings
- - expanded the how-to section and glossary
- - added more illustrations
- - expanded the index & bibliography
- - omitted some extraneous stuff

The new edition will be wire-bound with a green & cream-colored cover.

Cindy/Sincgiefu
renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:34:42 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Redacting

At 2:44 PM -0500 2/25/98, donna_m_smith at icpphil.navy.mil wrote:
>  Where does one get ahold of these books?  Or does one borrow them, or go
>to the library to use them (because, for instance, they're huge or expensive
>or hard to get)?  This leads to obvious questions for a newbie like me, such
>as, how does one learn to redact?  How does one redact?

1. Both of the books I mentioned are published by the Early English Text
Society. Amazon.com lists Curye at 39.95, with 4-6 week availability. They
list _Two Fifteenth Century_ as out of print with no price given. But ...

2. _Two Fifteenth_, being long out of copyright, is included in Volume I of
the collection of sources I sell. Current price is $12 including postage. I
am, however, about out, so orders will probably have to wait for my next
printing, which should be in a week or two. Also, I should warn you that
Volume I is reduction copied, four pages of source to one 8 1/2 x 11 page,
so not always easy on the eyes. It has something around a thousand pages of
source material. Volume II ($9) is shorter, only two pages to a page, and
consists mostly of cookbook translations I have organized.

One learns to redact by redacting. One starts with a period recipe and
tries to make it, keeping track of what you do (period recipes rarely
contain unnecessary details such as quantities, temperatures, or times) and
using trial and error. For more details, come to the class Elizabeth and I
will probably be teaching at Pennsic on cooking from period sources.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:31:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Daria Anne Rakowski <dar3 at st-andrews.ac.uk>
Subject: SC - Excerpt from medieval cookbooks (FWD) (fwd)

Maybe I am repeating enquiries here but has anyone come across this book
before? It was forwarded to me from a friend who knows of my cooking
habit. Thank-you in advance.

Coll

<snip>
The following, while in part a commercial announcement, also contains
free information, so I have decided to pass it on.  Bon appetite!

Rob
**********

The cuisine of the Middle Ages has been unfairly maligned.  For a taste of
medieval cooking take a look at six recipes available on our website,
including Chicken with Fennel, Inside-Out Stuffed Fresh Sardines or
Anchovies, or the ever-popular Orange Omelette for Harlots and Ruffians.
Read the recipes at:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/706842.html
This web feature is in celebration of our imminent publication of _The
Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Italy_, the best of medieval
gastronomy rescued from obscurity and adapted for the modern kitchen.
In
his foreword Georges Duby said: "To open this book is to set your mouth
watering."  We hope you'll agree.
- --------------------------------
Dean Blobaum
The University of Chicago Press
dblobaum at press.uchicago.edu

Date: Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:54:44 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Excerpt from medieval cookbooks (FWD) (fwd)

I checked out the web site and this is the long promised translation of
Odile Redon's "Le Gastronomie du Moyen Age".  I picked it up in the
original French in the Cluny museum in Paris some four or five years ago
and have also heard about both german and italian translations.  Assuming
that the translation to English is done well, this is an excellent and
very valuable book.

In the original French it gives the original of each of the recipes (almost
all from French or Italian sources) and then a translation into modern
French.  I'm assuming that in this English translation  the original will
sill be there and a translation into English will follow.  The book leans
heavily on Le Menagier and Taillevent and Platina, but (as I remember) has
a number of more obscure sources that I had not seen before.

Well worth buying.  You really want this book!

elaina

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:35:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: SC - Re: your mail

On Tue, 31 Mar 1998, L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt wrote:
> Arlene Silikovitz wrote:
> ------------------------------
> >Q: How does one get the book Fabulous Feasts?
> A: By being a very bad girl! It's a very bad book!
>
> Seriously, you can get it at any reasonably well stocked book store. But
> don't try the recipes. I don't want to be responsible for your ill-health.
> The non-recipe portion of the book is quite good. The author admitted,
> somewhere online, that some of the recipes were made-up to be
medieval-ish.
> In truth, nearly all of them are just plain gross.
>
> Aoife

There is an excellent review of Fabulous Feasts on line at the Serve It
Forth! web site at:  http://oldcolo.com/~memorman/sif_home.html

My lord husband attended a lecture given my Cosman some 20 years ago where
she admitted, verbally, that she had made up a number of the recipes, like
the parsley bread, because they seemed "medieval".

Elaina

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:26:42 +0100
From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk>
Subject: SC - Cook Books

Angelique said
>P.S. I have the following books:
>Fast and Feast by Bridget Ann Henisch.
Very useful on theory

>Pleyn Delit, 2nd edition, by Constance Hieatt,Brenda Hosington and
>Sharon Butler.
Anything by Constance Hieatt - Ordinance of Pottage, and the latest one
whos'  name I've forgotten (which is slightly less user friendly - the
originals are at the front and the redactions at the back).

>Fabulous Feasts by Madeleine Pelner Cosman

the text at the front is OK and quite informative (although she does assume
what was going on in London is true of the whole country - and Henisch is
better).  Don't touch the recipes with a bargepole (as everyone else has
said).  She has also published a book on holidays, which suffers from the
same faults (P.W Hammond's book is better).

>and the Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black

This is the British Museum publication?  Probably the collection of their
little cookbooks, so the medieval section is by her (and she edited) and the
16th century section by Peter Brears (who is also very good, especially at
sugarwork - he organises the cooking at Hampton Court each year).  Nice
little collections - a very good recipe for pike.  She also wrote a book for
the Weald and Downland Museum which I haven't seen.

Caroline

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 15:07:32 +0200
From: Jessica Tiffin <melesine at ilink.nis.za>
Subject: SC - Sugared Nuts and Cookbooks (was: Tiramisu)

Elizabeth of Dendermonde/Betty Cook replied to the mention of:
>>the Medieval Cookbook by Maggie Black
>I don't know this one.

This was the first medieval cookbook I ever acquired (courtesy of my mother
and the Past Times stores in Britain).  It's pretty good, in that Black does
include all the primary sources for her recipes, often several variations
from different sources.   I've found, though, that at times she
over-modernises them a little in her redactions - I tend to find myself
adapting back to the original at some points, in rejection of her updated
style.  It's a lovely, glossy book with beautiful pictures, mostly from
medieval sources, many in colour.  She seems to draw mostly from The Goodman
of Paris, Two 15th-Century Cookery Books, Curye on Inglysch and a couple of
others.

In service,
Melisant

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 1998 23:15:56 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Piquant foods

At 9:47 PM -0500 4/1/98, LrdRas wrote:
>You also mentioned a India period recipe source...has this been published and
>how would one obtain a translation?

The _Ain I Akbari_, which is one volume of the _Akbarnamah_, contains
ingredient lists, with quantities but without instructions, for (I think)
24 dishes--also instructions for flat bread and for distilling arrack (and
lots of other neat stuff about 16th c. Mughal culture). It was translated
into English in (I think) the late 19th c., reprinted in (I think) the
1930's. I believe a few of the recipes derived from it are in the current
_Miscellany_ and the supplementary recipes on my web page.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 07:09:43 -0600
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: SC - Re: German Cookbooks

I hate to reply to the whole list, but I didn't save Nicoltte Dufay's
e-mail address and I wanted to ask her about her cooking experiences with a
particular book.

About a week ago she asked for opinions a cookbook with a title similar to
German Cookbook of the Middle Ages. I was just going back over a
bibliography to something I'm working on and found Trude Ehlert's Das
Kochbuch des Mittelalters (Zürich: Artemis Verlag, 1990). Is this the one
you meant? This is a great book, with a short historical essay and a good
number of recipes with the original text and redactions. Some of the texts
she uses are manuscripts that have never been published and are, therefore,
inaccessible to those of us stuck in the U.S. I've always wanted to try
some of the redactions, but I never got around to it. I'd be interested in
how the feast produced from them came out.

Valoise

Date: Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:37:43 EDT
From: geneviamoas at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - late period french food.

Greetings oh learned ones and those well read and experienced too:
Speaking of french food. Has anyone read and hold a sharable opinion on
the book _ Early French Cookery: sources, history, original recipes, and
modern adaptations_ by D. Eleanor Scully & Terence Scully. University of
Michigan Press c. 1995.
Or _ Painters and food : Renaissance Recipes_ by Gillian Riley .
Pomegranate Artbooks, San Francisco, c.1993. Thank you for your input.
Genevia

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 06:01:17 GMT
From: korny at zikzak.net (Kornelis Sietsma)
Subject: Re: SC - late period french food.

On Sun, 05 Apr 1998 16:37:43 EDT, geneviamoas at juno.com wrote:
>Greetings oh learned ones and those well read and experienced too:
>Speaking of french food. Has anyone read and hold a sharable opinion on
>the book _ Early French Cookery: sources, history, original recipes, and
>modern adaptations_ by D. Eleanor Scully & Terence Scully. University of
>Michigan Press c. 1995.

I recently got this from www.amazon.com, and it looks excellent.  It is a
pity that the original texts are untranslated, but most of them are from
fairly easily found sources (like the good ol' Menagier) if you want a
translation.

The redactions I've looked at seem feasible, and the general discussion is
very interesting also.  And there are a *lot* of very tasty looking
recipes...

- -Korny
William Bekwith MKA Kornelis Sietsma | http://zikzak.net/~korny

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:47:27 +1000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: RE: SC - Book reviews

>I am reviewing The Original Mediterranean Cuisine.
>
>Murkial

This is a great book which I have been cooking out of for some time now (it
was published here in Australia). I won't spoil the forthcoming book review,
but it is a bit of a "must have".

Rowan
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Robyn Probert
Customer Service Manager                Phone +61 2 9239 4999
Services Development Manager            Fax   +61 2 9221 8671
Lawpoint Pty Limited                    Sydney NSW  Australia

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:25:43 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - late period french food.

Re: Scully's books on French food.  He has two out.  I've got
both--one is mostly text, the other has recipes.  I like them very much.
He is a scholar, and includes information I've found nowhere else.  I'd
say they are good additions to anyone's library.  As always,
cross-reference, cross-reference, cross-reference.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com
Master Chirurgeon, Companion des Lindquistrings, Princess' Order of
Courtesy

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 14:28:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - FW: New Medieval cookbook

> -----Original Message-----
> From: L. Ruggiero [SMTP:larug at interfold.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 7:12 PM
> To:   outlands at mail.unm.edu
> Subject:      New Medieval cookbook
>
> I just today received my lastest orderfrom amazon.com... a new Medieval
> cookbook.
>
> Title: The Medieval Kitchen: Recipes from France and Italy
> by Odile Redon, Francoise Sabban, & Silvano Serventi, translated by Edward
> Schneider ISBN: 0-226-70684-2
> cover price: $32.50 (amazon.com does give a discount, I got it for $22.75 +
> S&H)
> 285 pages
> Hardcover
> Due out June 1, 1998 (but obviously available now)
>
> I like the look and organization of this book. Each recipe starts out with
> a translation of the Medieval recipe (with source) , followed by a
> paragraph or three of assorted info about the recipe, then the recipe
> itself (with American and metric measurements).
>
> The section before the recipes (there are 153) goes over something of
> history, background, and menus. After the recipe sections, the medieval
> texts (recipies) in what i assume is Medieval French and Italian, a
> bibliography of primary and secondary sources, and a few mail order sources.
>
> I can't wait to try some of these recipes.
>
> Thalia Lavalle (mka Laura Ruggiero) <larug at interfold.com>

I got two copies of this book yesterday from amazon.com.  One for myself
and one for my apprentices.  Come on over, Murkial!

I think this is destined to be -THE- new book for SCA cooking.  It is
well-written, well-translated, and gives plenty of background for the
recipes and the period.  the illustrations, both color and black and
white, are excellent.  the sources, mostly french and italian with a few
others thrown in, cover all the well-known ones (le menagier, platina,
taillevent, etc) but also a few little known manuscripts that definitely
add something new to my view of the corpus.

I have had the French original of this book for about five years, and have
been very eager to see the English translation (there are also German and
Italian translations).  It's as good as the original.  I was a little put
off at first that the recipes included as the original a translation into
English of the original, and then a modern redaction.  But all of the
actual originals in the original language are in an appendix at the back
of the book for you to refer to if you want to check out the translation.

I recommend that this is one to buy and use.  we will see a lot of it.

Elaina

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 15:24:48 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - FW: New Medieval cookbook

The original title is La Gastronomie au Moyen Age by Odile Redon.  The
English translation that has just been released is The Medieval Kitchen,
Recipes from France and Italy.  ISBN 0-226-70684-2.

It is really a stunner.

Elaina

Date: Sun, 14 Jun 1998 14:09:50 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: RE: SC - Re: sources of sources.

Bear wrote:
>Of the cookbooks, the only one I think may have been commercially copied is
>Apicius, which was published about 1498, having been derived from two 9th
>Century manuscripts which were apparently copied from a 4th Century
>manuscript.

There are at least two more titles that extremely popular starting in the
late fifteenth century and continuing into the sixteenth. Platina's De
honesta voluptate (taken from Martino's Libro de Arte Coquinairia) first
showed up about 1475, underwent at least 16 Latin editions and was
translated into Italian (1487), French (1505), and German (c. 1542) as well
as being widely plagiarized by other authors.

Kuchenmeisterei was printed first in 1485 and continued to be printed under
various titles for almost two hundred years. I don't know if it was ever
translated into any other languages.

Valoise

Date: Mon, 15 Jun 1998 22:00:29 -0400
From: Bonne <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Jellies vs. aspics

> Elizabeth writes:
> >>The use of sugar to preserve fruit in the form of jam or jelly seems to be
> just coming in at this period, so in this case I would be hesitant to take
> Digby as evidence for what was being done in England sixty years earlier.<<
>
> Approximate 60 years (1604) earlier Elenor Fettiplace had her recipes written
> into a book. She was born ca. 1570 and had a 15 year old son in 1604, so had
> been married for awhile. Her book contains a number of recipes for preserves
> and for whole fruits perserved in clear jellies. Would this be considered a
> primary source?
>
> I'm going to make a leap of faith here (as opposed to an assumption) that, as
> sugar started becoming more redily available in England ca. 1550, Eleanor did
> not come up with all these recipes between 1600 and 1604, but was using them
> during her entire married life and may have been taught some or all of them
> from her mother before she was married.
>
> Renata

As I understood the notes at the beginning and the end of the book, although
the bulk of the work seems to have been copied out from collected notes all at
once, there were additions made by several hands at undetermined times as the
book was passed along in the familiy.  The current owner/editor of the
published version doesn't consistently indicate whether or not a recipe is in
the original hand, or one of the later hands. Those wanting to be very
scrupulous about periodness will want to wait until an edition with that sort
of detail is available.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:34:58 -0500
From: "John Henschen" <bacchus at revealed.net>
Subject: SC - Has anyone had the pleasure of looking through this book?

MORRIS, RICHARD. "Liber Cure Cocorum." Copied and Edited from the Sloane Ms.
1986. Berlin: published for the Philological Society by A. Asher & Co.,
1862. First edition, 8vo, iv & 61pp., original gray paper wrappers; spine
partially perished. A curious Northumbrian poem of the fifteenth century on
cookery, "treating a great variety of dishes under the titles of potages,
broths, roasted meats, baked meats, sauces and "petecure" " (introduction),
with an index of words, dishes, etc. Scarce. Bitting, p. 331. From the
library of 19th century runic scholar George Stephens. Book# 6271 US$
225.00. Please contact Rulon-Miller Books (ABAA / ILAB) for more information
about purchasing this book.

This looks like an amazing book, but I don't think I'd spend that much $$ on
a book I couldn't even touch first, or have an opinion from someone I trust.

Celadon

Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:03:40 EDT
From: melc2newton at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - Kvass.

On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:18:38 -0400 Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
writes:
>melc2newton at juno.com wrote:
>> Here is some documentable stuff on Kvass from the Domostroi, which
>>is a  household rulebook from 16th C. Muscovy:
>
>Do we have a more specific date for the Domestroi? I was under the
>impression it was early 17th century...

According to the Pouncy in the Introduction:
        The colloquial Russian in which most of the text was written
         dates no earlier than the accession to the throne of Ivan III
         in 1462 and probably not much later than the death of his
         grandson Ivan IV in 1584. For several reasons - including
         terminology used, customs described, and the inclusion in
        early manuscripts of a chapter written by Sil'vestr, a priest who
         served in the Kremlin Cathedral of the Annunciation from 1545
        to 1556 (approximately) - it most likely appeared sometime
        in the 1550's.

>Adamantius

Beatrix

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:00:59 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: SC - The Dating of Domestroi (was: Kvass)

Beatrix quoted the kvass recipe from Domestroi as 16th century, and
Adamantius asked:
>>Do we have a more specific date for the Domestroi? I was under the
>>impression it was early 17th century...

and Beatrix replied:
>According to the Pouncy in the Introduction:
>       The colloquial Russian in which most of the text was written
>        dates no earlier than the accession to the throne of Ivan III
>        in 1462 and probably not much later than the death of his
>        grandson Ivan IV in 1584. ... it most likely appeared sometime
>       in the 1550's.

It is actually more complicated than that.  Domestroi was a very popular
book in an era of hand-copying, so there was no definitive text; it got
revised and added to over time.  Pouncy discusses the different versions
that have survived and what she believes is the sequence of additions over
time, and concludes that while the earliest version (her Short Version) is
from the 16th c.,  "between 1600 and 1625, three unrelated chapters with
menus and recipes...became associated with the Long Version; shortly
thereafter they received numbers and became Chapters 64-66."  The kvass
recipe, together with various mead recipes, is out of Chapter 65.  So yes,
the main part of the text is 16th c., but the kvass recipe is early 17th c.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 00:06:49 -0800From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>Subject: Re: SC - Badinjan MuhassaAt 9:14 AM -0400 7/22/98, LrdRas at aol.com wrote:><< Walnuts appear in the recipe for Badinjan Muhassa, which is in a collection> assembled in the 10th century.>> David/Cariadoc >>>>Where could a person obtain this collection? Is it published? By whom? , etc.>Thanks in advance.The Arabic text was published by Studia Orientalia in Helsinki. There is nopublished translation of the collection. I have a few recipes that CharlesPerry translated, including Badinjan Muhassa.David/Cariadochttp://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:12:19 EDT
From: melc2newton at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC - I need some info...

<sianan at geocities.com> writes:>
>As a birthday present I got a copy of a book called The Medieval Cookbook
>by Maggie Black.  With a glance it doesn't look too bad.  It includes all
>the originals and the redactions are understandable.  It aslo gives a fair
>bit of history and bibliography.  Does anyone else have it?  and if so what
>are their opinions on this one?
>
>-Sianan

I found a copy at the Ozark Tech College's library and I thought it was a
very good book. Not only does it have the originals in it, but I thought
Maggie did a good job in picking recipes that people just starting to
cook , or starting to cook medievally, would not be afraid to try.(a
problem I'm trying to solve at my own shire)
Beatrix

Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:38:00 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re:  SC - Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von guter Speise

Master Osgot wrote
>I have been working on translating this recipe collection and I would love
>to compare notes with anyone else interested in it.
>I have been working from a transcript of Ein Alemannisches Buchlien von
>guter Speise from the internet but I would like to get hold of a facsimile
>copy of the original as there are several points in the text where I believe
>an incorrect transcription has been made.
>I look forward to your comments

The transcription on Thomas Gloning's web page was done in the 19th C. by
Anton Birlinger and published in 1865. If you contacted Dr. Gloning he
could tell you more, but I was under the impression this is the only
transcription of that manuscript. I'm not sure what repository it's in, but
the 1865 publication was from Munich.

For those who asked, I don't have the exact url, maybe Bear does since he
was the one who asked for input. Gloning's wonderful bibliography on German
cookery, wine, etc. is at
http://www.uni-giessen.de/~g909/cookbib.htm
You should be able to find his home page, Ein alemannisches Buchlein, and
an e-mail address from there.

Valoise

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:18:40 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - McKendry & Horizon??

Gerekr at aol.com wrote:
> Opinions please...
>
> Being limited to a fixed space for cookbooks, and recently having added a
> number of much more recent, authenticity-oriented titles, I was wondering
> if I'd be losing much, besides the illustrations, if I let go of Maxime
> McKendry's Seven Centuries Cookbook (1973) and the 2-volume Horizon
> Cookbook (1968).

I suggest you find a good home for the McKendry book. While there are better
secondary sources available now, it has a few really good redactions in it, and
I generally like to treat such sources that were once state-of-the-art, even if
now superceded, with respect. I'll even stop giving away copies of Fabulous
Feasts when I'm down to one copy. I think they multiply on the shelves, though.

As for the Horizon book, it does have some good stuff in it, although it does
have the weaknesses you mention. It also has some archaic foods from sources we
generally don't encounter in the SCA, I suspect.

Basically, no book is without value (although that Charlotte Adams Complete
Cooking Course comes pretty close!)

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:39:46 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Scully

In a message dated 8/26/98 3:50:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, meadhbh at io.com
writes:

<< Early French Cooking by Terence Scully >>

Although the information in this book is fascinating he and his wife take
great liberties in redacting the recipes so that the majority of them are not
exactly authentic. The Scully's tend to substitute items because they think
their substitution makes a better dish and they also leave ingredients out
that the original called for.

The background information is generally quite sound, however. They also
present a good case for the 'Humor' theory of medicine as it pertains to
cookery although they fall far short of convincing me that the majority of
medieval cooks really cared about such things.

All in all it was an interesting read but their recipes although VERY tasty
fall short of being seriously authentic.

Ras

Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:26:09 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: SC - Scully

Ras said:
meadhbh at io.com writes:
><< Early French Cooking by Terence Scully >>

<snip>

>The background information is generally quite sound, however. They also
>present a good case for the 'Humor' theory of medicine as it pertains to
>cookery although they fall far short of convincing me that the majority of
>medieval cooks really cared about such things.

There is another article on medieval humoral theory by Scully that those
interested in humoral thought and how they affected medieval cooking
should read. I think he makes a good case and it does explain some of
the oddities of medieval cooking but I am still unconvinced that it is the
only explanation. This article is: "Mixing it up in the Medieval Kitchen"
by Terence Scully, Wilfred Laurier University.

I found it in a book I bought at Pennsic:

"Medieval Food and Drink", ACTA, Vol. XXI. The Center for Medieval and
Early Renaissance Studies. Binghamton University, State University of
New York. 1995 ISSN 0361-7491.

It wasn't a cheap book, $20 for 145 pages, but I'm wondering if the other
volumes are as interesting and will probably inquire further about them.

The ACTA ad in the back mentions proceedings of some SUNY Regional Comferances
and I may check on these, too. Particularly number II on the Twelfth Century.

Stefan li Rous
stefan at texas.net

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:22:45 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - The British Museum Cookbook

Hey all from Anne-Marie

we are asked about the British Museum Cookbook...
> Can anyone tell me about this book?  Found a recipe on-line with this as
> documentation but don't know time periods, etc. about it.
>
Its a little book from...the British Musuem! I have it, and while theres
intriguing sections on all kinds of fun time periods, there's not a primary
source to be found. Rats!

- --AM

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:34:39 -0500
From: Shari Burnham <pndarvis at execpc.com>
Subject: Re: SC - The British Museum Cookbook

I have this book too, and Anne-marie is correct, there are no primary sources.
It is a really fun cookbook.  Being vegetarian, there are alot of dishes that I
have tried from this cookbook and have been very happy with the tastes.  Haven't
tried the meat dishes, anyone who has this book, any comments on the meat
dishes?

Elisabeth

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:11:51 PDT
From: "Rebecca E Tants" <retants at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires

I was wandering around a used book store today and found 13 issues of
the journal from the above group.  The journal focuses on "food, food
history, cookery and cookery books."

These little ~60 page books are fascinating!  The one's I have date from
1987-1992 (the journal was issued 3 times per year) and each one has at
least one good article/paper on historical cooking!  (for example, #27,
the first one, has an article on the history of "les galettes des rois",
the cakes served at epiphany with the bean in where the person who finds
it is the king for the day, citing sources back to the 13th century, a
short discussion and photocopies of a couple of pages from a book in
french that the author suspects was written in 1562 by Mary Queen of
Scots or member of her household, the refutation of a scholarly work
that was trying to prove baklava documentable to a 3rd century byzantine
book and a bunch of book reviews (including Scully's Chiquart on
Cookery) and some letters from readers on all sorts of topics!  And
That's just the first of 13!

Anyway, does anyone know if this organization still exists?  I'm going
to send a letter to the US address in the back of the last book (the
organization is based in the UK), but if anyone knows anything else
about this organization, I'd love to hear it!

Caitlen Ruadh

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:54:53 EDT
From: Acanthusbk at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires

retants at hotmail.com writes:

SNIP
> Anyway, does anyone know if this organization still exists?  I'm going
>  to send a letter to the US address in the back of the last book (the
>  organization is based in the UK), but if anyone knows anything else
>  about this organization, I'd love to hear it!
>
>  Caitlen Ruadh

Petits Propos Culinaires issues the following statement to those who inquire
about subscribing:
"We are often asked to tell people what our journal PPC (Petits Propos
Culinaires) is. The short answer is that is is a semi-academic periodical
which comes out three times a year and deals with food, cookery and cookery
books; that is usually runs to 64 or 72 pages, none occupied by
advertisements; and that the contributors are a mixture of professional
writers and amateurs. All issues are illustrated, in black and white
(reproductions of old engravings and woodcuts, etc., plus drawings
commissioned for PPC).
  PPC is not a collection of recipes, although most issues contain some
recipes of particular interest. These recipes have often been embodied in
articles, eg by the late elizabeth David and Richard Olney (both of whom
played an important part in founding PPC). Extensive Book Reviews and an item
called Notes and Queries are also regular features. The latter provides a
forum for reports on research in progress and for posing questions which
readers may be able to answer.

Present subscription rates (postage included) are as follows:
In the UK six issues are GBP23.50, three issues are GBP12.00;
In the USA six issues are $45.00, three issues are $23.50;
Elsewhere six issues are GBP26.00, three issues are GBP13.50.

If you would like to subscribe send your cheque to:
PPC (Petits Propos Culinaires)
45 Lamont Road
London SW10 0HU
tel/fax (0)171 351 1242
Email: aedavidson at compuserve.com

Your name and address should be clearly indicated as well as the type of
subscription chosen and the amount of money you enclosed.

We're sorry that we cannot accept payment by credit cards, as we are far too
small an operation for that! However, regular US dollar checks are perfectly
acceptable - made out, please, to "PPCNA", sterling cheques should be made out
to "Prospect Books Ltd."

Subscriptions can start at any point in the calendar year. New subscribers
will be started off, unless they request otherwise, with whatever is the
current issue when their subscription is received.

Back numbers [back issues]. These are currently all available, with
substantial discounts for people ordering large numbers. Just tell us what you
would like and we will let you know the cost. By the way, the back numbers
which contain cumulative indexes are: 16 (covering 1-15); 26 (16-25); 36
(26-35); 46 (36-45); and 56 (46-55).

All prices include postage. However, subscribers in Asia, Africa, Australasia
who wish to receive their copies by airmail will need to pay extra - just ask
and we'll give you the details. (Copies going to subscribers in North America
are all air-lifted to New York City and put into the US postal system there.)"

You might be interested to know that PPC's founder Alan Davidson also founded
Prospect Books, which publishes all those wonderful facsimiles of historically
noteworthy cookbooks. Mr. Davidson now focuses his efforts on publishing PPC,
while Prospect Books is run by Tom Jaine.

Beginning this fall Acanthus Books will maintain a complete inventory of all
back issues of PPC. If you're searching for PPC articles addressing a
particular topic of interest I'll be happy to make recommendations.

Amanda
******************ACANTHUS BOOKS****************
            Most Complete Selection of In-Print
US & UK Antique Cookbook Facsimiles and Transcriptions
  Complete Works of Elizabeth David & Jane Grigson
      Request A Catalog......Acanthusbk at aol.com

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:37:44 EDT
From: Acanthusbk at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires-Online Index

Forgot to mention in the last post that there is an online index to PPC,
although only for recent issues 46-55, at:
http://members.tripod.com/~rdeh/index.html

There is some additional background information about the history of PPC.

This is Russell Harris' homepage, and also includes an index to the Oxford
Symposium proceedings for the years 1981-1994. Acanthus Books has available
proceeding from the years 1986-current. Earlier years are OP and available as
used books.

Amanda

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:40:45 EDT
From: Acanthusbk at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - PPC - Petits Propos Culinaires-Online Index

Hadn't looked at this page for awhile, and see now that Mr. Harris has added a
downloadable text file containing the index for PPC issues 1-55, so that makes
for a complete index with the exception of the few most recent issues.

Amanda

Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 09:28:17 -0500
From: mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com (Michael F. Gunter)
Subject: Re: SC - Yet another cookbook enquiry

>   I recently got another medieval cookbook that I'd like some opinions on.
> The tile is 'A Taste Of History.  10,000 years of food in Britain.'  The
> Author is Maggie Black.

> -Sianan

My lady brought this book back from her studies in England and Alys D. and
I fought over it all the time. I love this book. The one problem with it is
that it doesn't give the original translation for many of the recipes but it
does a good job of breaking the recipes down historically.

Plus, it's a gorgeous book.

Gunthar

Subject: Re: ANST --..Historical references to beans...
Date: Tue, 08 Sep 98 16:57:48 MST
From: peerage1 <peerage1 at flash.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG

> At any rate, I would not serve what we in the U.S. call "green beans" at an
> "authentic" Medieval feast.  They would be Renaissance at best.
>
> Bear

Okay Bear, it's renaissence...but heres what you requested...Reference
for your beans: fourteenth century.

154. D'autres menuz potaiges...: Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed
chard, cabbage, turnip greens, leeks, veal in Yellow Sauce, and plain
shallot pottage, peas, frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans or
beans in their shell,  pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are
experts with these and anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which
I have not put in my recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be
eaten.

                           The Viandier of Taillevent

This book is in Print, as well as the two 15th century other cook books
which have also been out of print for awhile and are back in-although I
haven't gotten my hands on those, due to they are reprints of 18th
century ones of the manscripts.

Here's the site: it's called serious books for serious cooks :), just
for the fun of corruption.

http://www.foodbooks.com/welcome.htm

The Viandier of Taillevent: An Edition of all Extant Manuscripts. Edited
by Terence Scully. The Viandier is the most important early recipe
collection of medieval France. Written in the fourteenth
century by Guillaume Tirel (alias Taillevent), the chief cook of King
Charles V of France, it is the starting point of many culinary
traditions and practices that remain at the base of modern French haute
cuisine. This volume is the first to present all four extant manuscripts
of the Viandier, arranged in parallel for easy comparison. The texts of
the 220 recipes are in the original French, but a complete English
translation is  provided. University of Ottawa Press. 330 pp. ©1988
$35.00 Hardcover.

Two Fifteenth-Century Cookery-Books. Edited by Thomas Austin. The
ancient cookeries edited in this volume have been copied from Harleian
MSS, 297 and 4016, in the British Museum. The first MS. is divided into
three parts, the first, headed Kalendare de Potages dyuers, containing
153 recipes; the second part, Kalendare de Leche Metys, has 64 recipes,
and the third Part, Dyuerse bake metis, 41 recipes. Published for The
Early English Text Society by the Oxford University Press. 151
pages. Unaltered reprint of the 1888 edition in 1996. $45.00 Hardcover.
(Now Available - copies arrived from England on July 3rd)

Rayah

Date: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 20:16:02 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Pleyn Delyt

In a message dated 9/10/98 9:59:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, meadhbh at io.com
writes:
<<  Try and find the first edition if you can. The
 second edition is missing some of the original recipes. >>

One of the many things that make this list interesting is it;s diversity of
opinions. ;-) I would HIGHLY recommend the second edition of Pleyn Delyt
because the recipes have been redacted more closely to the originals and
several obvious errors that occured in the first edition have been corrected.
The recipes in the first edition are 'GOOD" but the recipes in the second
edition are even closer to excepted period redactions and are , IMO,
wonderfully edible for the most part. :-)

But in the end, a copy of this book in whatever edition is a good thing to
have. You can also start plowing through Stefan's files which are a wealth of
information. and Cariadoc's Miscellany, which is on-line is a good source for
beginners and experienced SCA cooks alike.

Ras

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 11:20:08 EDT
From: Jgoldsp at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period Polish Cooking and Books.../helpful info...

The only book I have located by name and it is post period is;compendium
Ferculorum by Stanislaw Czerniecki he was a chef the book is dated 1682 but as
far as I can deduce not avalible in english or polish .It was used by Adam
Mickiewicz when he  recreated the picture or the Old Polish feast in the 12th
chapter of Pan Tadeusz. Maybe you can have better luck than me.

Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:01:15 EDT
From: WOLFMOMSCA at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - leeks recipe

In a message dated 98-10-06 04:06:32 EDT, Cariadoc writes:
<< Does _To The Kings Taste_ give either the original recipe or a cite to it?
 This sounds like something very loosely based on funges >>

Yes, the original Funges recipe is given.  _To the King's Taste_ wasn't
written for historical re-enactors.  It was written for modern cooks 23 years
ago.  This does not, IMO, preclude it from being used as a basis for cooking
in a medieval context.  Practice with the ingredients and the language will
allow people to utilize this little book quite well.  As cooks get better at
doing redactions themselves, the book becomes less of a cookbook and more of a
cheat sheet.  Beginners find it useful, as I did when I started cooking for
the SCA 22 years ago.  It was all we had back then.  I still use it, and its
companion volume, _To The Queen's Taste_.  I have my own personal problems
with some of the redactions, and when I do, I use my own redactions, not Dr.
Sass's.  It's still a great place to start.

Wolfmother

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 02:28:31 EDT
From: Gerekr at aol.com
Subject: SC - Vivendier?

While poking about bookstore sites, I came across this recent item...

Scully, Terence (ed & trans): VIVENDIER ; Pprospect Devon (Eng) 129 pp
Paper New 54.3
     The culinary portion of an extensive 15th century French manuscript
now residing in Kassel, Germany. Recipes given in their original tongue
and in translation with commentary. Fortunately, the work has been done
by Terence Scully who has long been working with culinary
manuscripts from the same period and is uniquely qualified to interpret
them to a modern
audience. Contains series of appendices.   Offered for sale by Food Words
at US$24.00

Has anybody seen this?  Opinions?

Chimene

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:47:10 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Vivendier

g.walli at infoengine.com writes:
<<
 Good grief! Have I been laboring under false assumptions all
 this time and avoiding the Scully books for no reason? >>

IMO, Scully relays some very useful info. Certainly better than Fabulous
Feasts. I bought 2 of his books at War and enjoyed reading them a lot. The
'errors' are obvious enough that most students of cookery will recognize them
at a glance. His chapter detailing a day in the life of Master Chiquart in
'Early French Cookery' is worth the price alone.

As with any work dealing with any number of subjects Scully's are no worse and
in many ways far better than some of the trash that passes for 'scholarly'
tomes.  I recommend purchase. :-)

Ras

Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:19:14 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Vivendier

Gaylin Walli wrote:
> 
> Phlip wrote: 
> >If it's Scully, it's likely pretty good. I was looking at buying
> >it myself.
> 
> Really? I've been laboring under the assumption that there were
> far better sources to use. I admit to knowing little about the
> subject, but I had thought that other members of the list
> believed that Scully was not up to snuff in the arena of
> redacting/translation/creation/whatever due to use of non-period
> ingredients.

I'd say he is more inclined to use non-period methods, or period ingredients
in ways the original recipe doesn't specify. He is, of course, married to a
professional chef, and is also probably not intending his work for use by
re-creationist types. So, for example, in giving university students a taste
of the sort of flavors one would have encountered in a meal based on
Taillevents, he has chosen to produce a baked stuffed chicken breast rather
than simply stuffing the whole bird. One could certainly argue that this
doesn't provide an authentic view of the topic for someone interested in
period re-creation, but I don’t believe that's necessarily what Scully is about.

On the plus side, his translation is generally quite a good one, and he
provides original text from all the known manuscripts of le Viandier, with
commentary on the recipes (with line-by-line comparisons between the different
manuscripts), including a lot of information on the medical theory which, in
some cases, leads to certain decisions being made, like whether to parboil
chickens before roasting, for example. 
 
> Good grief! Have I been laboring under false assumptions all
> this time and avoiding the Scully books for no reason?

Well, maybe. It depends on what you're looking for. If you want a simple,
readable book of modernly adapted medieval recipes, Scully is not your man. If
you want to learn more about medieval cookery, after having cooked from the
former book of adapted recipes, I would recommend Scully. I can think of only
one or two scholars in the field of culinary history I value more; they're
probably Constance Hieatt and Karen Hess, not necessarily in that order.

He has an excellent translation of Chiquart, too, BTW. 

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 04:16:12 -0700
From: "Conni Hazelwood" <connimom at swbell.net>
Subject: RE: SC - Cookbook review?

I have a copy that I picked up in my local Half- Price Books.  Kind of short
on period recipes, but the ones that are there are from good period sources
with the original language recipe included(if you read period French.)  Lots
of good photos of prints and woodcuts from period.  the first 200+ pages are
devoted to a history of foods, cooking and dining.  The book's period covers
1300 to 1789, so nearly half of the book is covering post-period stuff.  I'm
still reading it, so I can't really review the written portion yet.  PS most
of the recipes are from Viander, and so are available from other sources.

> Any opinions on this book?  Anyone seen it, or read it?  Any good original
> recipes?  Any suggestions yea or nay about buying it?
>
> Savoring the Past; The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789, Scribner
> ed.
>
> By Barbara Ketcham Wheaton
>
>  Quality Paperback, ISBN: 0684818574 List Price: $16.00 OUR PRICE: $12.80
> Simon & Schuster Publication Date: 04/01/96
>
>   <A HREF="http://www.books-for-cooks.com/index.html">Books For Cooks,
> theNeighborhood Cookbook Store on the Web</A>
>
> Mordonna DuBois
> Haven of Warriors
> Barony of Atenveldt
> Kingdom of Atenveldt

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 14:51:03 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Cookbook review?

Mordonna,
>>Any opinions on this book?  Anyone seen it, or read it?  Any good
original recipes?  Any suggestions yea or nay about buying it?

Savoring the Past; The French Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789,
Scribner ed.  By Barbara Ketcham Wheaton<<

I haven't tried her recipes, but she says: "Some adaptations have been
necessary, but I have stayed as close to the originals as is possible for
a cook in a modern American kitchen."   She gives 10 period French
recipes.  Since my remaining modern French is sparse, I'll let Anne-Marie
comment on Wheaton's faithfulness to the medieval/renaissance French
originals.

Most of the book is text, and includes the 17th and 18th centuries.  I
bought mine because of a good review in _Serve It Forth_, haven't gotten
too far into it, and have thrown it at the wall several times.

Get it via Interlibrary Loan, and decide if it's a 'keeper' for you.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 06:28:59 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast

david friedman wrote:
> You might want to look through the webbed Miscellany (and other sources)
> for recipes from Platina, who is Italian, late 15th c. Two other sources
> (very closely related to Platina) are Martino's cookbook, a little earlier
> (there is no translation into English that I know of), and Epulario, which
> is a c. 1600 English translation of an Italian cookbook, probably c. 1480.

Another thing that might be worth considering is that Platina's De Honesta
Voluptate et Valetudine was apparently written with Martino's work as its
[partial] source document, which explains why the Vatican librarian had such
an encyclopedic knowledge of cookery. The latest translation/edition of
Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around
90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina.

Now, I'm _not_ saying you shouldn't go out and get both. If you want to make a
serious study of the subject you definitely should. But, if you are on a
deadline of some kind, or a book budget, you might prioritize and get the
Platina first, because it may be easier to lay hands upon.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 09:47:17 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast

>The latest translation/edition of
>Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around
>90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina.

I haven't seen the new translation. Comparing a few recipes in the old
translation of Platina with Martino, my impression was that Martino gave
substantial more detailed instructions.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 22:47:33 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Italian Ren Feast

david friedman wrote:
> >The latest translation/edition of
> >Platina that I've seen, one done by Mary Ella Millham, suggests that around
> >90% of Martino's work is virtually quoted by Platina.
>
> I haven't seen the new translation. Comparing a few recipes in the old
> translation of Platina with Martino, my impression was that Martino gave
> substantial more detailed instructions.
>
> David/Cariadoc
> http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Could be. I was thinking of Millham's own claims, which I supply, probably
erroneously, from memory: Platina repeatedly lauds Martino as the perfect
model for all a cook should be, and speaks glowingly of his work, yet ~90%
(some high percentage) of Martino's work is included in DHVEV, while the
portion of Platina's work that is taken from Martino is ~50%, plus added
medical info, suggesting that Platina's work is far more complete. Whether
Martino has been trimmed down for inclusion in Platina's work I don't know; it
may just be a count of titled recipes.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 3 Nov 1998 09:26:09 -0500
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Bible as a food Source

I have a couple of books on biblical cooking.

"The Good Book Cookbook - Recipies form Biblical Times" by Naomi Goodman,
Robert Marcus, and Susan Woolhandler. c.1986  Their introduction says
they took references of food from the bible, studied ancient Near Eastern
literary legacy, together with an investigation of how more recent Middle
Eastern culinary experts have prepared the smae foods our biblical
ancestors ate.  I have used it a few times, and found the recipies to be
quite good.

"Biblical Garden Cookery"  by Eileen Gaden c.1976 Christian Herald Books
She also has taken correlary writings from the times and compared them to
food lists as well as Middle Eastern Cooking.  I have used some of her
pickle recipies, which came out quite good.

        Christianna

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:22:52
From: "Joyce A. Baldwin" <jocetta at ibm.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Which books?

Bonne wrote:
<much snippage>
>  "A late period Renaissance feast will be offered, for in the mind >>
>of the autocrat, it is always 1531." I've had offers of the loan >>  of
>books.  With that quotation in mind, which books do I want to >>
>borrow?

I have a book in my possession called "Sallets, Humbles, and Shrewsbury
Cakes:  A Collection of Elizabethen Recipes Adapted for the Modern Kitchen
by Ruth Anne Beebe with recipes redacted from four cookbooks published
between 1596 & 1621.  (those by Thos.Dawson, Gervase Markham, & John
Murrell). I realize this is a bit late period for your feast. Also, while
she does quote the original recipes before her redactions (thank goodness),
she does not specify which source she obtained it from *sigh.*   I haven't
actually tried many of her redactions so some experimentation would be in
order.  Anyone on the list familiar with this book?  Opinions?   I got it
second hand a good fifteen or so years ago.

Jocetta

In the Society for Creative Anachronism:
Lady Jocetta Thrushleigh of Rowansgarth
Exchequer, Canton of Buckston on Eno

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 23:05:14 -0500
From: Bonne <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A question for the group

Betty Cook wrote:
> There is also Elinor Fettiplace's Cookbook--commercially published, I think
> originally early 17th c.

Having had it out of the library for bus ride reading until yesterday, I'll
put in:

The bulk of it was written in one hand and dated 1604.  By that year, Lady
Fettiplace had been married and accumulating recipes a decade or more, and you
could assume some had come from relatives and so date back a bit further. Some
recipes duplicate what I see referenced from other books.  Prince Bisket and A
White Bisket, for instance.  Blancmange and some custards, an unsweetened
date/custard pie, which was very good, once we adjusted to it not being
dessert as we eat it today. The bulk of the recipes are for preserves, jams
and various sweets.  Not a lot of meat dishes, though some sauces. Not a lot
of vegetable dishes. Not a lot of soups.  Some medical treatments.   The book
does not have every recipe from the manuscript, I don't beleive. (It's back at
the library, so I can't double check what was said about that.)

About a quarter of the book was added later in various inks and hands. These
bits might be as new as the early 1800's.  Trouble is, usually nothing in the
text indicates which grouping a recipe comes from.  I know of one noted in the
introduction as being in the later hand, but that isn't mentioned when the
recipes appears in the text.  Neither does she say it is as part of the 1604
group in the text.  But if you've skipped the introduction you'll go happily
along thinking you are using a recipe that is most likely pre-1600, when you
might not.  How much that bothers you depends on you.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 12 Nov 1998 15:05:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Mary Morman <memorman at oldcolo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Book review

On Thu, 12 Nov 1998, Helen wrote:
> I just read Fabulous Feasts.  Has anyone else read it?  What do you
> think?

I think that it is in most ways just what it says, a study of the
"fabulous" or unusual and exotic in renaissance cooking.  It should not be
taken as a study of "normal" feasting, cooking, or eating.

The recipes in FF are just plain poorly done.  This is not a book to use
as a resource for actual cooking.  However the pictures alone are probably
worth the price of the book - if of course you can remember to look at the
pictures and not read the text with too much enthusiasm.

There is an excellent review of FF on the Serve It Forth! web site at:

http://oldcolo.com/~memorman/sif_home.html

It was done by Master Kay Delfleur and in addition to a chapter by chapter
analysis of the book, it has some comments on his meeting with the author
at a talk that she gave nearly 20 years ago.

Elaina

Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:59:56 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: SC - Forme of Cury

With the assistance of Greg Lindahl, I have posted the text of "The Forme
of Cury", a 14th century English cookbook, to
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/   This site is not yet linked to the
Medieval & Renaissance Food Homepage, but should be soon. It's also not
cleaned up yet - read on for details before visiting!

NOTE: Go straight to the .jpg files.  The  Forme of Cury text begins in
file FoC001.jpg  and follows in numerical order to FoC203.jpg  The Forme of
Cury file consists of 203 scanned pages in .jpg format. These images are
scanned at 300 dpi, and are about 300 to 450K each.

IGNORE THE HTML FILES, they're gibberish.  (I was trying to scan the files
as text, & it didn't work out too well.)

This is the 1785 copy edited by Samuel Pegge. The text includes all Pegge's
notes and gloss, plus another manuscript cookbook entitled "Ancient
Cookery."  A few of the pages are missing a few characters of text along
one margin.

*The recipes begin with file FOC52, and go to FOC131.
*FoC(AC)132 to FOC(AC)163 are the "Ancient Cookery" recipes.
*If you are unable to access these and you desire a copy, please contact
me.  And before you all ask, I can make a *MAC-compatible* copy for you on
a zip disc if you send me a new (unopened) Mac-formatted zip disc.  The
files are too big to email to you.

My mailing address is:  7 El's Way, Sussex, NJ 07461 USA  Please include an
oversize self-addressed envelope.

Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu (the technologically-challenged)
renfrow at skylands.net
Author & Publisher of "Take a Thousand Eggs or More, A Collection of 15th
Century Recipes" and "A Sip Through Time, A Collection of Old Brewing
Recipes"
http://www.alcasoft.com/renfrow/

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:51:40 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book

Philippa Alderton wrote:
> Someone on the Middlebridge posted this question- anybody familiar with it?
>
> > "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A
> >Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise". The first chapter covers
> >"the 14th to the 16th century", then other chapters cover the 17th, 18th
> >and 19th centuries. Original sources are listed. Has anyone else seen this
> >one? Is it good for using in the SCA?

It is also sometimes sold as "The Seven Centuries Cookbook", and the
author is sometimes named as Maxime McKendry (presumably the same person
as Maxime de la Falaise). My edition is edited by Arabella Boxer.

Yes, it does frequently list the primary source, but not always, if I
remember correctly. It also sometimes gives the original recipe, and
sometimes not. When it doesn't, it's sometimes hard to be immediately
sure what ingredients and steps have been conceived or added by the
author. So, she occasionally adds things like gratuitous beurre manie
thickening to sauces that originally called for no thickener at all.

I guess it's better than "Fabulous Feasts", at least as a recipe source.
I haven't referred to my copy in years, but I wouldn't dispose of it,
either. It has at least one recipe (Honey Saffron Quiches, a.k.a.
doucettys or darioles) that was specifically requested by a fairly
recent Eastern Crown for their Coronation feast.

It's not the best book in the world, but then not everything can be
written by P.G. Wodehouse, can it?

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 04:29:06 -0600
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book

>>> I just found a book, titled "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A
Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise".>>

I have a zerox of the part that pertains to our era.  It's rather
generalist; contains some modern redactions of recipes from sources most
of us have.  I'd suggest putting the cost of it towards one of the books
with the whole collection rather than one or two per source: 1000 Eggs,
for the Two Fifteenth C.; Hiett's Curye on English, etc.

It's brief enough to give to your Aunt Fanny when she wants to know what
you are doing with those strange people.

Allison
allilyn at juno.com, Barony Marche of the Debatable Lands, Pittsburgh, PA
Kingdom of Aethelmearc

Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 13:19:08 EST
From: Bronwynmgn at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Cook book

phlip at bright.net writes:
<<  I just found a book, titled "Seven Centuries of English Cooking: A
 >Collection of Recipes by Maxime de la Falaise". The first chapter covers
 >"the 14th to the 16th century", then other chapters cover the 17th, 18th
 >and 19th centuries. Original sources are listed. Has anyone else seen this
 >one? Is it good for using in the SCA? >>

I have it.  She does give the originals for most all recipes, but doesn't
follow them terribly closely.  For instance, in the "Yrchouns" recipe, she
adds egg and breadcrumbs to the mixture, as well as a couple of other things,
and interprets the coloring instructions to mean coloring the almond spines
rather than the meatballs themselves.  She also either doesn't know about or
doesn't follow which vegetables were available in period, as she adds green
beans to a 15th century recipe for pea soups.  The original does have beans
in it, but they couldn't have been green beans.

So, it's a good source of the original recipes, and the redactions can be
used as a basis for doing them properly ;-)

Brangwayna

Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 07:14:43 -0800
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - French recipes

Hi all from Anne-Marie

Jean asks us:
>I am looking for Period French recipes. Does anyone have any
>ideas were to start looking or some of your own?

mmm! French food! my fave! :)
For already reconstructed recipes, check out the following books:
"Great Cooks and their Recipes" by C Ann Willan
" THe Medieval Cookbook" by Maggie Black
"Medieval Miscellany" by Cariadoc and Elizabeth
"Savoring the Past" by Barbara Wheaton
"Pleyn Delite" by Constance Hieatt
"Early French Cookery" by Terance Scully

For primary sources check out the following:
Chiquart (translation by Scully)
le Menagier (various translations available)
Taillevent's viandier (translations available by Scully and Prescott)
an Anglo-Norman collection (by Hieatt et al)
le Viviendier (translation by Scully)
La Varennes' French Cook (available on microfilm...VERY late, not medieval,
but awfully fun stuff. dated 1651)

have fun! French food is great fun to play with. And contrary to common
opinion, they were eating really well long before that overrated de Medici
chick came around...

- --Anne-Marie, who really needs to get all her recipes onto a web page for
questions just like this...

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:24:22 EST
From: Acanthusbk at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Period Scottish Source?

>A Book of Historical Recipes by Sara Paston-Williams
>The National Trust of Scotland, 1995 ISBN 0-7078-0240-7;
>Posted by Paul Macgregor
>
>This book _is_ available from Amazon, BTW. I ordered a copy, but 
>there wasn't much information available about it. We will see, eh?
>
>Adamantius

Sorry I'm piping up now, in the middle of this thread...the book you're
speaking of, Sara Paston-Williams' _Book of Historical Recipes_, is a nice
little book but not a source for period Scottish recipes. English, yes,
Scots, no. Actually published by the English National Trust.

The first known published Scottish cookbook was _Mrs. McLintock's Receipts_,
1736. Reprinted by Aberdeen Univ. Press in 1986 but now out of print. I'm
not aware of any collections of pre-1650 Scottish recipes, but Olive Geddes
_Laird's Kitchen_ contains a brief chapter on early 17th c. food
preferences.

You might want to look at F. Marian McNeill's _Scots Kitchen_, 1929, available
in facsimile. McNeill cites sources for all recipes from 18th - 20th c.
cookbooks, earlier than this are identified as "old cottage recipe" or
"traditional". She gives very few "modern". Lots of good background info.

Amanda

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:26:57 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - old world/new world foods

You might try "The Sensible Cook, Dutch Foodways in the Old and the New
World" translated and edited by Peter G. Rose 1989 ISBN 0-8156-0241-3"  The
original "The Sensible Cook or Careful Housekeeper" was published in 1667
but apparently contains recipes from  "Eenen Seer Schonen ende Excellenten
Coc-boeck" by Carolus Battus which was published in 1589.

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 16:57:26 EST
From: THLRenata at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Warners

Suzanne mourns:
<< I WISH I had a copy of "To the Queen's Taste! >>

I have a copy on extended loan (along with "To the Kings Taste") and I have to
admit I'm not all that impressed.  I suspect that their fame is due to their
rarity (to quote the owner of the copies I have "They are sooooo out of
print") rather that their content.  Still, the recipes I've made have been
tasty, if not 100% authentically redacted.

Renata

Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 23:41:25 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Warners

THLRenata at aol.com wrote:
> Suzanne mourns:
> << I WISH I had a copy of "To the Queen's Taste! >>
>
> I have a copy on extended loan (along with "To the Kings Taste") and I have to
> admit I'm not all that impressed.  I suspect that their fame is due to their
> rarity (to quote the owner of the copies I have "They are sooooo out of
> print") rather that their content.  Still, the recipes I've made have been
> tasty, if not 100% authentically redacted.
>
> Renata

Okay, it's time for another SCA-cooks' bedtime story:

Once upon a time, there were perhaps five sources available for the
average SCAdian who was either not adept or simply not confident enough
to deal with primary source recipes. In no particular order, they were
(and someone else may have a different vision of what the five, or the
seven, or whatever, were): "Fabulous Feasts" by Madeline Pellner Cosman,
"Seven Hundred Years of English Cooking", a.k.a. "The Seven Centuries
Cookbook", by Maxime McKendry, a.k.a. Maxime de la Falaise, "To the
King's Taste", and "To the Queen's Taste", both by Lorna J. Sass, and
"The Delectable Past" by Esther B. Aresty.

The first is pretty bad as a recipe source, replete with red licorice
whip garnishes and frumenty made from Grape Nuts cereal. The others have
some bright spots, but are flawed to varying extents, more or less in
the same way, in that they don't _really_  teach us all that much about
medieval cookery, because they either don't give the original source
recipe, or else they don't follow it with any logic or any desire to do
a medieval thing the way it was done in the Middle Ages. This isn't so
bad when you consider they were never really intended as cookbooks for
serious historical recreationists to work from, but more as curiosities
for lightweight historical hobbyists and people whose entertaining
tended toward the unusual. I guess the question is of the degree of
immersion, if you know what I mean.

Anyway, you've all probably heard this from me before, but once upon a
time books like "To The Queen's Taste" were, for the non-scholarly, the
inexperienced, or the underconfident, considered the only game in town.
Now all of the above have been eclipsed by newer secondary sources with
better educational ethics, but it isn't always good to forget one's
roots so easily.

What's the line in the movie version of "Jurassic Park"? "The point is,
you are alive when they begin to eat you. So show a little respect,
okay?" ;  )

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 03:10:54 -0800
From: Heather Law <lynnx at mc.net>
Subject: SC - Sallets, Humbles, and Shrewsbury Cakes

Amazon has just sent me this information about this out of print
cookbook. Frankly, it's too rich for my blood! If someone wants it,
please go ahead and contact them

  Ordered item:   Ruth Anne Beebe "Sallets, Humbles and Shrewsbery Cakes : A
                  Collection of Elizabethan Recipes"

     Title located:"Sallets, Humbles & Shrewsbery Cakes - a Collection of
                    Elizabethan  Recipes Adapted for the Modern Kitchen."

                        Price:  $83.99
                        Shipping & handling charge:  $3.95
                        Total charge for item:  $87.94
                        Binding:  Hardcover

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:02:55 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources

Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise.
New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully.

I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible
to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting
and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful
knowlege. And very 14th c. French!

Master Huen

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:16:59 -0500
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources

>Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise.
>New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully.
>
>I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible
>to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting
>and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful
>knowlege. And very 14th c. French!
>
>Master Huen

See also
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/Medieval/Cookbooks/Du_Fait_de_Cuisine/du_fait_de_c_con
tents.html

Cindy

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:58:36 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources

At 1:02 AM -0800 1/27/99, James L. Matterer wrote:
>Chiquart's 'On Cookery' A Fifteenth-Century Savoyard Culinary Treatise.
>New York: Peter Lang Publishing, 1986. By Terence Scully.
>
>I think this book may be out of print, but it's probably still possible
>to find a copy somehow. As most of Scully's work, it's an interesting
>and well written book, with some unusual recipes and much useful
>knowlege. And very 14th c. French!

Actually it's 15th century French.

And, while Scully's translation may be out of print, my lady wife's
translation is on my web page--and included in volume II of my collection
of source material.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:40:11 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - XIVth Century French Sources

At 4:02 PM -0600 1/26/99, Brian Songy wrote:
>Beyond:
>       * Le Viander de Taillevent
>and
>       * Le Menagier de Paris
>What other documents, if any, would serve as good sources, both
>primary and secondary, for 14th century French cooking?

There's Traité de Cuisine (c. 1300). I include it in volume II of my
collection. I don't know Viandier very well, so am not sure if it is one of
the things that went into that.

David Friedman

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:26:49 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Koge Bog (was:   Nerve Bisquits???)

> I have one dated 1616 that I believe is Danish...called "Koge Bog". since
> I dont READ danish, I havent done anything with it other than nab it and
> xerox it!
>
> --AM, who is amazed that she has a cookbook Cariadoc doesnt have! :)

"Cook Book" was printed in Copenhagen in 1616.  I believe the Horsens Museum
in Horsens, Denmark, has a modern reprint they sell.  The Horsens Middle
Ages Festival has a few fun pictures also.  You can check this out at:

http://www.horsensmuseum.dk/iindex.htm#index

My Dansk is almost good enough to understand one word in ten.

Bear

Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:36:49 -0800
From: "James L. Matterer" <jlmatterer at labyrinth.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Goodman of Paris, etc.

david friedman wrote:
> There is a modern,
> very partial, translation under a different name ("A Medieval Home
> Companion" or something vaguely similar).

"A Medieval Home Companion: Housekeeping in the 14th Century" by Tania
Bayard, copyright 1991, HarperCollins Publishers.

Huen

Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:37:31 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - "In a Caliph's Kitchen"

> I'm very sorry to tell you that not only is "In a Caliph's Kitchen" out-of-
> print, but also that the publisher has gone out of business.  I was
> importing the books through my British agent, which is how I know this.
>
> I have heard that Prospect Books is working on a new book of historic
> Arabic cooking, but have no idea when it might be available.
>
> Devra the Baker
> Poison Pen Press

Prospect Books will be bringing out Medieval Arab Cookery by Maxime Rodinson
and Charles Perry.  The volume will contain a reprint of A Baghdad cookery
Book by Prof. A.J. Arberry.  According to foodbooks.com, it's not on the
market yet, but they are taking advance orders.

Bear

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:54:54 -0500
From: "Nick Sasso" <Njs at mccalla.com>
Subject: PAge finishing (was  RE: SC - Initial impressions of A Drizzle of
Honey)

Just Got my copy of The Medieval Kitchen, too.  I am very pleased that
the origianl text is included in an appendix, by the same order as the
translated recipes.  The list of sources is also user friendly by my
assessment.  The sources are listed with the recipes lifted there from,
given a code of sorts (MP for Le Menagier, etc.), and the code used in
the main text body as reference.  Seems very easy to use, and I have
not yet evaluated for accuracy the recipes they chose to use.  The
French Toast from 15th Century Italian source looks awfully tempting!!

niccolo difrancesco

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:10:37 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pennsic Cookery Class Suggestions:  Long

Terri Millette wrote:
> > Elizabeth translated Du Fait de Cuisine and would be willing to participate
> > in a panel. If we could just drag Janet Hinson to Pennsic ...   . And
> > Charles Perry.
>
> Pardon my ignorence, but who are these 2 people?

Both are culinary historians, editors, and translators of various period
source books. Hinson is known for an excellent translation of Le
Menagier de Paris, and Charles Perry for a wide variety of stuff,
largely Arabic texts.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:28:40 EDT
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: SC - New? Book

Just got a new book.  Don't know much about it.  It's called "The Horizon
Cookbook".  It's a two volume set.  One is sub-titled "Illustrated History"
the other is "Menus and Feasts".  Copyright 1968 by American Heritage
Publishing Company, it purports to be an "Illustrated History of Eating and
Drinking Through the Ages."

There is an extensive list of picture credits, and a bibliography, but no
footnotes, so their sources may not be 100% reliable, but there is some
interesting reading here.  One of the sources listed is the Flower and
Rosenbaum translation of De Re Cocinaria, and there is no mention of the
Vehling.

So far I have read perhaps a third of the first volume with mixed opinions.
There is a lot of Euro-centric pseudo-anthropology in it, not surprising
considering the decade it was published in, but it is surprisingly even
handed in its treatment of the Middle Ages.  I'll let you all know my opinion
after I've read it and tested some of the recipes.

Mordonna

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:27:23 +0100
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: SC - A Newe Proper Booke of Cokery

Some Good gentle refered to:
<< an English source is in ~1545, in "A Newe Proper Booke of Cokery",  >>

                Is there a reprint and/or redaction of this publication out
on the market? If so, what is the name, Author and ISBN if known? Your help
is gratefully appreciated.
                Yours, Rosalyn MacGregor

I have a copy of this which is printed by a Civil War outfit here in the UK
for about GBP 4.50. It's a 24 page booklet. If there is no similar
publication in the US, I can look up their address details and send them to
you to follow through, or if you want, I can arrange with you off-list to do
it for you.
The recipes for pastry in it are supposedly the first detailed ones printed
in an English cookbook. It also has a lot of tart and pie filling recipes
(as well as very interesting menus).

Al Vostro e al Servizio del Sogno
Lucretzia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 17:41:03 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - [Fwd: 17th century cookbook URL]

I thought the various Elizabethan/Jacobean
wonks...ahem...enthusiasts...would be interested in this. My browser
didn't like the URL I was sent, but if you trim all the mysterious code
off the end, you can probably go to

http://www.stg.brown.edu:1084/dynaweb/wwptextbase/wwpCorpus/

and get a page full of the dreaded frames. From there you can link to
Hannah Wooley's 1664 "The Cook's Guide", not to mention a buncha other
cool stuff.

- -------- Original Message --------
Subject: 17th century cookbook URL
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:39:18 -0400
To: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>

I just saw an announcement on the Rialto concerning the Women Writers'
Project at Brown, which has on-line texts of early women writers.  Don't
know if you'd heard about this yet, so I thought I'd just drop you a note.
There's a 17th century cookbook, "The Cook's Guide," on-line in this project.

http://www.stg.brown.edu:1084/dynaweb/wwptextbase/wwpCorpus/ at Generic__BookTe
xtView/196644;hf=0

A recipe for haggis! ;>

Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 10:28:09 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A midsummer nights feast(OOP- slightly)

>       The brief for the meal is to go for 'best of british' with a
>traditional/historical slant to it ( many of the attendees are re-enactors
>etc) but it is not required to be strictly period.

Hunt up a book named "English Provincial Cooking".  I don't have my
references and so cannot give you the author or ISBN. e-mail me if you need
me to hunt it up for you.  The book is quite a collection of "traditional"
recipes, with a bibliography that includes all the manuscripts and diaries I
so often see referenced here and some others which I've been meaning to ask
the list if they know anything about.  Unfortunately, for any particular
recipe, she does not list her particular sources.  She'll just say something
like "14th century manuscript" or "recipt book from 1799" and that sort of
thing.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 20 May 1999 16:31:50 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - re: quick info needed

kat wrote:
> Can someone email me privately (I get the digest) and let me know the name
> of the cook and the source where we were told no one bothers writing down
> recipes for vegetables (or something to that effect)?
>
>                 - kat

"154. Other Lesser Pottages, such as stewed chard, cabbage, turnip
greens, leeks, veal in Yellow sauce, and plain shallot pottage, peas,
frenched beans, mashed beans, sieved beans, or beans in their shell,
pork offal, brewet of pork tripe -- women are experts with these and
anyone knows how to do them; as for tripe, which I have not put in my
recipe book, it is common knowledge how it is to be eaten."

Viandier de Taillevent, ~1379 C.E., trans. Terence Scully

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 21 May 1999 14:50:42 -0700
From: lilinah at grin.net
Subject: Re: SC - A midsummer nights feast(OOP- slightly)

Bonne suggested:
>Hunt up a book named "English Provincial Cooking".  I don't have my
>references and so cannot give you the author or ISBN.

Got this through a cookbook club a while back:
English Provincial Cooking
by Elisabeth Ayrton
1980
Harper and Row
0-06-010157-1

Has pleasantly chatty intros and info on recipes organized by local
regions, and a number of "vintage" recipes, as she often puts it, from old
farms and estates. Some are said to be from within SCA period, and she even
on rare occasions gives the original recipe.

Anahita Gaouri bint-Karim al-Fassi
not normally given to eating English food

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:39:20 -0400
From: Ann & Les Shelton <sheltons at conterra.com>
Subject: SC - New Scully Book

I was doing some research tonight and discovered that Terence Scully has
a new book soon to be released entitled "The Neopolitan Recipe
Collection:  Cuoco Napoletano."  It will cover 220 recipes by an
annonymous late 15th c. master cook in Naples.  It will be published by
the University of Michigan Press, approx. 264 pages, tentatively priced
 at  $42.50.

A complete description is available at:
http://www.press.umich.edu/titles/10972.html

John le Burguillun
Nottinghill Coill
Atlantia

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:06:33 -0400
From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings...

I turned up a
nice copy of "Jeff Smith Cooks American", which I thought would be a good
starter for a young, Christian country girl (all I know about her) and a
small volume called "A Proper Breakfast" by Alexandra Parsons and Evie
Safarewicz.  It is a delightful book exploring the 'proper' breakfast of
cuisines all around the world.  It starts off with a discussion of
different beverages, (tea, coffee, chocolate) their history and how to
make them properly....  Anyway, in
the section about 'Breakfast in the Mountains" discusses hearty Alpine
faire, and starts off with a recipe for *rosti*, a fried potato pancake.
Then, they drop a tidbit that really caught my attention.  It says "It
was in Switzerland that the first cookbook written by a woman was
published in 1598.  It contained the first known recipe for rosti and
today you will find it on most breakfast menus, ..." !
        So, have I missed something?  Are we aware of this source, and I've just
missed it?  I wish they said who the author was, they are pretty good
about quoting the sources for their numerous quotes throughout the book.

        Christianna

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:46:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gretchen M Beck <grm+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings...

Did a search on Worldcat, and found this:

Wecker, Anna d 1596-7, Ein Ko:stlich new Kochbuch von allerhand Speisen,
an Gemu:sen, Obs, Fleisch, Geflu:gel, Wildpret, Fischen und Gebachens:
mit allein vor Gesunde, sondern auch und fu:rnemlich vor Krancken
allerley Kranckheiten und Gebrasten auch schwangere Weiber - Kind -
betterinnen, unnd alte schwache Leute, fu:fstlich und nu:zlich
zuzurichten unnd zugebrauchen, dergleichen vormals nie in Truck
aussgangen.  Place: Ambert, Bey Michaeln Forstern, publisher, Year 1598.
 Alternate Title Weckerin Kochbuch

This looks like an original manuscript copy.  It says that the Library
of Congress has a non-lending copy.

toodles, margaret.

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:47:53 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Tuesday afternoon ramblings...

> Anyway, in
> the section about 'Breakfast in the Mountains" discusses hearty Alpine
> faire, and starts off with a recipe for *rosti*, a fried potato pancake.
> Then, they drop a tidbit that really caught my attention.  It says "It
> was in Switzerland that the first cookbook written by a woman was
> published in 1598.  It contained the first known recipe for rosti and
> today you will find it on most breakfast menus, ..." !
>       So, have I missed something?  Are we aware of this source, and I've
> just missed it?  I wish they said who the author was, they are pretty good
> about quoting the sources for their numerous quotes throughout the book.

>       Christianna

Anna Weckerin.  There is a translation by Regina and John Bendix, but I
don't think it has been published yet.  There is a copy of the cookbook in
the Aresty Collection of the Van Pelt Library at the University of
Pennsylvania.

Bear

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 06:31:17 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions

Bonne wrote:
> Cooking with the Ancients : Bible Food Book ~ Arlene Stadd / Glenbridge Pub
> Ltd / March 1997

As I recall this one is based on the _kinds_ of foods found in the
Bible: the recipes themselves, as far as I can tell, are fairly modern.
Most of them, anyway.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 06:53:26 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Book opinions

> The Food Chronology : A Food Lover's Compendium of Events and
>
>        Anecdotes, from Prehistory to the Present ~ James Trager / Henry
> Holt (Paper) / June 1997

Timeline.  Useful for establishing a general progression of events. Broad
but shallow.  There are inaccuracies and misstatements.  No bibliography,
very limited source references.  Trager tends to be sloppy about
scholarship.

> Six Thousand Years of Bread : Its Holy and Unholy History (The Cook's Classic
> Library) ~ Heinrich Eduard Jacob, Lynn Alley / The Lyons Press / September
> 1997

If you are into the history of bread, this is a good book.  No recipes.

> All Manners of Food : Eating and Taste in England and France from the Middle
> Ages to the Present ~ Stephen Mennell / Univ of Illinois Pr (Trd) /
> November 1995

        A general history.  Limited coverage of SCA period.  IIRC, this is
where I came across the quote which equated Piers collops to steak.  No
recipes.

> A Taste of Ancient Rome ~ Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa, Anna Herklotz
> (Translator) / Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) / March 1994

Interesting read.  Good recipes giving original, translation and redaction.
Recipes are from a number of sources including Apicius.

Bear

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:22:27 -0400
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
Subject: SC - Books

>Six Thousand Years of Bread : Its Holy and Unholy History (The Cook's Classic
Library) ~ Heinrich Eduard Jacob, Lynn Alley / The Lyons Press / September
1997

Very bread orientated but pretty unique

>Food in Antiquity : A Survey of the Diet of Early Peoples ~ Patricia
Brothwell(Contributor), Don R. Brothwell / Johns Hopkins Univ Pr / January
1998

Reputed to be good

>Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton
Publishing / October 1997

No Recipes, but good info on the background to cooking, methods, aquiring
food etc.

Mel

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 12:06:01 +0100
From: "Oughton, Karin (GEIS, Tirlan)" <Karin.Oughton at geis.ge.com>
Subject: RE: SC - Book opinions

> Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton
> Publishing / October 1997

        I found this good for general information about culinery matters -
it gave more of a overall feel of how the diet was structured through the
classes , rather than specific recipes and dishes. It also concentrated very
heavily on documented sources of food to create this diet categorisation,
which while it is accurate in the sense that it is PROVABLE , gave me a
slightly uneasy feeling because of the fact that it ignored food that is
freely available in nature.

        Having just made nettle soup, dosed my cold with elderflower cold,
had plantain salad for lunch and with pots of elderflower sorbet in the
freezer, I wonder how important 'gathered' or 'kitchen garden' food woould
have been medievally and hence how much the book ignores by concentrating on
the documented facts only.

        I guess the best description to me is as an 'absorbtion book' -
quality data which woolgathers in your brain, slushes around with other
data, and eventually forms together to give a fairly balanced picture. Needs
to be read in context with other stuff though.

        I've been reading  Lady Margaret Hobys diary , ( Elizabethan period
) and the Paston Letters (1400??) and in the few hints she gives about her
activities , I think the surrounding countrysides harvest was very important
in that period.

        Karin

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:35:15 SAST-2
From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>
Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions

Bonne asked about:
Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim /
Sutton Publishing / October 1997

A kind friend just gave this to me for my birthday.  It has hordes
of the most _wonderful_ pictures - reproductions of medieval
originals, not only people feasting, but  utensils, both cooking and
eating, kitchens, cooks at work, merchants selling food, etc, .  I
haven't had time to look through the text more than briefly, but it
seems to be geared more to a general cultural overview than to
specific recipes.  Lovely chapters on food sources, what was grown,
etc, and on feasts, upper and lower class eating habits, etc.

Melisant de Huguenin    Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town
(Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:20:02 -0400
From: "Micaylah" <dy018 at freenet.carleton.ca>
Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions

[This is in referance to: Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ 
P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton Publishing / October 1997 - editor]

Melisant it is indeed worth the read. One rainy afternoon I picked it
up just to leaf through it and ended up reading it from cover to
cover, having a really hard time putting it down. The book actually
had several surprises (like a banana in a garbage dump does) and I
learned alot from it. It is not very cerebral and is an easy read. I
am now tackling All Manners of Food and because of my CFS I am finding
it a little more challenging....not a book to just whip through but
worth it nonetheless.

Micaylah

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:46:31 -0000
From: Dottie Elliott <macdj at flash.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Book opinions

>A Taste of Ancient Rome ~ Ilaria Gozzini Giacosa, Anna Herklotz (Translator) /
>Univ of Chicago Pr (Trd) / March 1994

I like this book. Although not a complete version of Apicius, he gives
the originals and his redactions taste good.

>Food and Feast in Medieval England ~ P. W. Hammond, Alison Sim / Sutton
>Publishing / October 1997

A good book for general information. I want something more in-depth than
I have seen so far but this book has lots of info.

Clarissa

<the end>