cookbooks6-msg - 5/31/10

Reviews of cookbooks with medieval recipes posted after December 2006.

NOTE: See also the files: cookbooks-msg, cookbooks2-msg, cookbooks5-msg, cooking-bib, cookbooks-bib, cookbooks2-bib, cookbooks-SCA-msg, cb-rv-Apicius-msg, cb-novices-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

[See the other cookbooksX-msg files, where X = a number for the messages posted before and after those in this file.]

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:23:01 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Burger battle
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Who is "Benavides-Barajas"? I don't think I remember his works being
> discussed here before.
>
> Stefan

I think this is probably Luis Benavides-Barajas.  The name popped up on the
list five or six years ago in a bibliography from a book on Spanish culinary
traditions (IIRC).  According to my notes, he's a noted culinary author in
Spanish with at least 15 books to his credit.  Again IIRC, I've read one
small modern piece by him translated into English and found the prose a
little florid.

Since I haven't read his work, I can't begin to address it's accuracy.  A
quick search on his name in relation to the Florilegium shows that Huette
raised a question about the historical accuracy of his recipe for alfajores.

Bear

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 13:17:28 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Burger Battle
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Phil Troy wrote:
> I'm left wondering whether Benavides-Barajas actually
> used the word "hamburger" . . . or "albondiga" (meatball)

     He calls it "Supremo de carne o hamburgesa andalusi" not
'albondiga'. He does distinguish the two terms clearly in his books.

Stefan li Rous wrote:
     Who is "Benavides-Barajas"? I don't think I remember his works
being  discussed here before.

L. Benavides-Barajas is a Spanish specialist in historical gastronomy.
He has contributed to several European magazines, gastronomy guide books
and cookery books such as the second edition of "Dinner Party Book" and
"Let's Lunch in London" by Corrine Streich. Also he has written for La
Cronica de Granada, The Reporter and the Daily Telegraph. In Spain he is
known for his publications such as "Nueva-Clasica Andalusi",  "La
Alhambra," "Los moz?rabes y muladies," "Al-Andalus, la cocina y su
historia" and other historical cookery books on various areas in
Al-Andalus. He provides historical information and recipes some of
which are obviously modernized versions of Huici's Spanish translation
of the 13th C Hispano-Arabic manuscript. His work is interesting and
informative but as indicated he looses credibility for his failure to
cite his sources.

Susan

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 22:27:47 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Doing my best
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I just received my copy of Daz B?ch von G?ter
Spise, the translation by Melitta Adamson.

<soapbox>
The book has a huge rant against the SCA
translation by Alia Atlas. Among other things it
says this "translation spread more false
information on the oldest German cookbook than
any other edition or translation to date".

Adamson's translation is noticeably better.
After all, that is why I paid $24 for a tiny
little paperback.

But except for a few recipes, it only reads
smoother. Atlas's translation has mistakes, but
the recipes for the most part are useful to a
cook, even if they don't make it as literature.

I started researching German food because of
Atlas' translation was available online. Is it
better to have somewhat faulty information, or no
information at all?  Cariadoc said "The best
should not become the enemy of the good".

This struck home because I am attempting to do my
own translation of Rumpolt's Ein New Kochbuch. In
spite of care, it is no doubt peppered with
mistakes.

If a "best" translation of Rumpolt was available,
I'd love to be using it.  I hope someone
publishes a better translation than my beginner's
attempt

If I share my translations, and make something
available, that was not readily available before,
does that mean I am "spreading false information"?

Is it wrong to do the best job you can, on something that no one else  
has done?

</soapbox>

Ranvaig

Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2007 23:28:47 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edoard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Doing my best
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 2, 2007, at 10:27 PM, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:

> I just received my copy of Daz B?ch von G?ter
> Spise, the translation by Melitta Adamson.
>
> <soapbox>
> The book has a huge rant against the SCA
> translation by Alia Atlas.

Just because it was translated by a member of the SCA does not make
it an SCA translation.  There are some in academia though who will
tar all SCAdians with the same brush.

> But except for a few recipes, it only reads
> smoother. Atlas's translation has mistakes, but
> the recipes for the most part are useful to a
> cook, even if they don't make it as literature.

Then the cooks who can't afford Adamson's version will use the free
one, and the historians who want the best translation they can get
still have something to buy - as will the libraries.  Everybody wins.

Adamson's biggest reason to complain though is probably rooted in the
mistaken belief that if there's a free version of a text on the web,
then a bound hardcopy has less value.

> If I share my translations, and make something
> available, that was not readily available before,
> does that mean I am "spreading false information"?

No.  Your translation may not be perfect, but odds are it's better
than nothing.  You can only "spread misinformation" if you
intentionally pass on translations that you know are wrong (as
opposed to essentially correct but inelegant).

> Is it wrong to do the best job you can, on something that no one
> else has done?

Not in my opinion.  If you're willing to make your translation freely
accessible and to correct errors when/if they're pointed out to you,
then you're making a valuable contribution to the field.  Keep at it!

- Doc 
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2007 23:47:05 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Doing my best
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mar 2, 2007, at 10:27 PM, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:

> I started researching German food because of
> Atlas' translation was available online. Is it
> better to have somewhat faulty information, or no
> information at all?  Cariadoc said "The best
> should not become the enemy of the good".
>
> This struck home because I am attempting to do my
> own translation of Rumpolt's Ein New Kochbuch. In
> spite of care, it is no doubt peppered with
> mistakes.
>
> If a "best" translation of Rumpolt was available,
> I'd love to be using it.  I hope someone
> publishes a better translation than my beginner's
> attempt
>
> If I share my translations, and make something
> available, that was not readily available before,
> does that mean I am "spreading false information"?

Well, that depends. Anybody can make a mistake. What matters is
whether you respond to a well-intended correction in a manner that
indicates you're interested in a good piece of work over bolstering
your own ego. I've had experiences with SCAdians who've done
translations based on guesswork and a dictionary for a language they
don't really speak or understand fluently, when a correction was
offered in good faith by someone who speaks the language fluently
_and_ has access to dictionaries. The difference is that foundation
which serves as a "hook" on which to hang the dictionary work.

Alia Atlas (who was once active in the East Kingdom), from my own
experience, never actively resisted corrections, but her work got so
widely distributed, and so quickly, that it became difficult to hunt
down various incarnations and make sure corrections were applied. I
have a friend who was in the room when Caterina read Adamson's
comments, and she was utterly devastated, another casualty of a
brilliant academic whose skillset apparently doesn't include enough
tact to encourage someone for the greater good and for the sake of
the spread of enlightenment every academic is supposedly dedicated to.

Most everything Adamson said was true. Her remarks also read to me as
childish, arrogant, and designed to discourage "amateur" scholarship
from people without proper academic credentials. There's some
question whether Adamson would ever have gotten off her butt and done
her own edition of Ein Buoch von Guter Spise had Atlas not produced
her flawed version.

> Is it wrong to do the best job you can, on something that no one
> else has done?

No, not at all. See above. Being afraid to speak, or to have an
opinion, because someone else may have an opinion better informed
than, or in disagreement with, yours, is when learning comes to a
crashing halt.

Hey, I make idiotic statements all the time. I enjoy it. It's like
serving the ball in a tennis match. Come back to me with something
better. If you can, we all win. If not, same difference. It's when
people can't or won't speak because they're afraid of being thought
stupid, is when we all get a little stupid.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2007 11:51:53 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Deipnosophists
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

It turns out that Harvard University Press has a new edition of this
out. So far there's 2 volumes

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/L208N.html
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/L204N.html

The Learned Banqueters, I, Books 1-3.106e
  The Learned Banqueters, II, Books 3.106e-5.

Athenaeus Edited and translated by S. Douglas Olson

In /The Learned Banqueters/, Athenaeus describes a series of dinner
parties at which the guests quote extensively from Greek literature. The
work (which dates to the very end of the second century A.D.) is amusing
reading and of extraordinary value as a treasury of quotations from
works now lost. Athenaeus also preserves a wide range of information
about different cuisines and foodstuffs; the music and entertainments
that ornamented banquets; and the intellectual talk that was the heart
of Greek conviviality. S. Douglas Olson has undertaken to produce a
complete new edition of the work, replacing the previous seven-volume
Loeb Athenaeus (published under the title /Deipnosophists/)
The next volume is due out in January 2008.

Johnnae

Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 18:29:31 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Spanish books was Book Search
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Gretchen Allen Johns wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an English translation or a webbed version of  
> either of the following books:
> Vergel de sanidad: que por otro nombre se llamava Banquete de  
> cavalleros y orden de Bivir..     By Lobera de Avila

The 1542 is on microform.

By the same author  *variant title: Banquete de nobles caballeros  
(1530)*

Luis *Lobera de Avila *  is available in a 1952 reprint. Oh and  
there's a

1996 *1. ed. **Spanish*  Book 227 p. : ill. ; 21 cm.
San Sebasti?n : R & B Ediciones, ; ISBN: 8488947593 9788488947598

Collecci?n de textos gastron?micos ;; 11; *Variation:* Colecc?on Textos
gastron?micos ;; 12.

There's also a 1923 reprint volume titled *Libro del r?gimen de la salud :*
*y de la esterilidad de los hombres y mujeres, y de las enfermedades de
los ni?os, y otras cosas util?simas /*

Luis *Lobera de Avila*;  Baltasar *Hern?ndez Briz*

His works appear in Spanish, German, Dutch, Italian, French, Latin,
Portuguese, but not in English.

> Dialogos de philsophia natural y moral     By Enrique Jorge Enriquez

That title appears to be wrong. *Keyword Dialogos AND Keyword philsophia
*did not find any records in this database.Enrique Enriquez appears in
RLIN to be the author of only one book. It is on microfilm and it's in
Spanish.

Johnna

Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 20:28:42 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Book Search
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Gretchen Allen Johns wrote:
> Is anyone aware of an English translation or a webbed version of  
> either of the following books:
> Vergel de sanidad: que por otro nombre se llamava Banquete de  
> cavalleros y orden de Bivir..     By Lobera de Avila

I'm not aware of any translations, but there's a webbed facsimile at:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp? 
ref=X532742701&idioma=0

> Dialogos de philsophia natural y moral     By Enrique Jorge Enriquez

I'm not familiar with this one.  Are you sure about the author?  There's
a 1558 book by this title, but the author is Pedro Mercado.  It's webbed at:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533763915&idioma=0
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 21:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] New book on period Middle Eastern Cookery due out
	hopefully soon!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

When I was on the Library of Congress, looking for something else of  
course, I stumbled on
to this entry:

Zaouali, Lilia, 1960-
  Medieval cuisine of the Islamic world : a concise history with 174  
recipes / Lilia Zaouali ;
translated by M.B. DeBevoise ; foreword by Charles Perry.
Berkeley : University of California Press, 2007.
Projected Publication Date: 0709
  p. cm.
ISBN: 9780520247833 (cloth : alk. paper)
Notes: "Translated from both the original French version and the  
published Italian edition of the
book"--Pref. to the American edition. Includes bibliographical  
references and index.
Subjects:
Cookery, Arab.
Arabs--Food--History.
Cookery, Medieval.
Cookery, Islamic.

This sounds like a good book.  I just hope that it will be published  
before 2009.

Huette

Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2007 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New book on period Middle Eastern Cookery due
	out	hopefully soon!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I just checked the website for the U. of Calif. Press and found out that it is being published in October of this year!  For the exorbitant sum of  
$24.95!  And they are taking pre-orders!  Yippy!!!!

Huette

Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2007 08:47:39 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval Cuisine of Islamic World was New
	book on period Middle Eastern Cookery due out	hopefully soon!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's the description that I came across the other day.

Huette is right as it does look like it will be an interesting title for
the fall.

Johnnae (who promises a forthcoming booklist one of these days)

Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World: A Concise History with 174
Recipes *by Lilia Zaouali **Publication Date:* October, 2007 *University
of California Press ****ISBN:* 0-520-24783-3 *ISBN13:*
978-0-520-24783-3 ** Trade Cloth *Pages:* 242 *Price:* $24.95 (USD)
Retail (Publisher)

Vinegar and sugar, dried fruit, rose water, spices from India and China,
sweet wine made from raisins and dates--these are the flavors of the
golden age of Arab cuisine. This book, a delightful culinary adventure
that is part history and part cookery, surveys the gastronomical art
that developed at the Caliph's sumptuous palaces in ninth- and
tenth-century Baghdad, drew inspiration from Persian, Greco-Roman, and
Turkish cooking, and rapidly spread across the Mediterranean. In a
charming narrative, Lilia Zaouali introduces the great medieval cooks
and cookbooks, discusses the origins of dietary obsessions and
prohibitions, tells of Arab merchants who traveled to China to obtain
sugar, coconuts, and spices four centuries before Marco Polo, considers
the food of Ramadan, and much more as she brings to life Islam's vibrant
culinary heritage. The second half of the book gathers an extensive
selection of original recipes drawn from medieval culinary sources along
with thirty contemporary recipes that evoke the flavors of the Middle
Ages. Featuring dishes such as Chicken with Walnuts and Pomegranate,
Beef with Pistachios, Couscous with Walnuts, Lamb Stew with Fresh
Apricots, Tuna and Eggplant Pureacute;e with Vinegar and Caraway, and
Stuffed Dates, the book also discusses topics such as cookware,
utensils, aromatic substances, and condiments, making it both an
entertaining read and an informative resource for anyone who enjoys the
fine art of cooking.

<<< I just checked the website for the U. of Calif. Press and found out that
it is being published in October of this year!  For the exorbitant sum of $24.95! And they are taking pre-orders!  Yippy!!!!

Huette >>>

Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2007 19:38:25 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New book on period Middle Eastern Cookery due
	out hopefully soon!
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

>  Zaouali, Lilia, 1960-
>   Medieval cuisine of the Islamic world : a concise history with 174
> recipes / Lilia Zaouali ;
>  translated by M.B. DeBevoise ; foreword by Charles Perry.
>  Berkeley : University of California Press, 2007.
>  Projected Publication Date: 0709
>  ISBN: 9780520247833 (cloth : alk. paper)
>  Notes: "Translated from both the original French version and the
> published Italian edition of
>  the book"

Charles Perry was not thrilled about this book. He said it rather
jumps from al-Baghdadi to the 20th century without covering much in
between. And the author didn't seem to understand that the history of
what was in between was also significant.

I always welcome new books, but I would rather see it first before i
buy it, based on his reservations.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2007 22:50:09 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meals and Recipes from Ancient Greece
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I bought it in the spring at Borders (had Borders credit that had to be used).
You might check and see if a larger bookstore in your area has a copy
that you can see. Or interlibrary loan it in before buying it.
It's a work with ancient Greek recipes. Not all original recipes
are given. Only 56 recipes total.
Very short bibliography for the first section. My thought is that
copies of Dalby's works might be more useful for the money.

Johnnae

Sandra Kisner wrote:
> Is anybody familiar with this book?
>
> Sandra
>
> Salza Prina Ricotti (ed.), Eugenia, Meals and Recipes from Ancient
> Greece. Translated by Ruth Anne Lotero.  Los Angeles:  Getty
> Publications, 2007.  Pp. 122.  ISBN 978-0-89236-876-1.  $24.95.

Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:55:37 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help finding out-of-print sources
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	Sandragood at aol.com

Before there was EEBO, there was microfilm and a number of
university and college libraries have the Epulario on microfilm.
Repeat---
Even if they don't have EEBO, they have the book on microfilm.
It's part of what was UMI Early English Books I.
It's based on titles found in Pollard & Redgrave, Short Title  
Catalogue I.
The microfilm series began in 1938.

You are looking for:

Epulario, or The Italian banquet [microform] : wherein is shewed the
maner how to dresse and prepare all kind of flesh, foules or fishes. As
also how to make sauces, tartes, pies, &c. After the maner of all
countries. With an addition of many other profitable and necessary
things. Translated out of Italian into English. 1598.
Microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich. : UMI, 1953. 1 microfilm reel ; 35
mm. (Early English books, 1475-1640; 539:8). s1953
That means it was filmed and released in 1953 and is on reel 539, item
number 8.

Most university and college libraries allow members of the general  
public
to use the microfilm collections in the library. Many that won't allow
access
with printing  for EEBO, will allow you come, read and print from
the microfilm. Call ahead and determine that they
have the collection. Find out what the reader-printer or reader scanners
need
in terms of coins or if they take credit cards. Hours? Parking?

Go and spend a day at it or part of day at the library. Trust me, it's a
relatively easy
way to get a copy made.

Johnnae

Sandragood at aol.com wrote:
> I've been doing some research for an upcoming competition.  The entry  is
> based on a translated text from Epulario. I'm trying to get my documentation in
> order and am having trouble finding better than tertiary (internet) sources.
>  I know this book was reprinted in 1990 but I am  having difficulty finding
> current information in my online searching.
>
> The only online versions of the complete text I've been able to locate are
> through places like the EEOB that are only accessible through partnering
> libraries, which usually only include college libraries.  Not being  
> a  student or an alumni is making it harder.
>
> Do any of you have suggestions on my next step?
>
> Liz

Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:40:51 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] New Medieval Cookbook?
To: alysk at ix.netcom.com, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	"mk-cooks at midrealm.org"
	<mk-cooks at midrealm.org>

Elise Fleming wrote:
> Greetings!  SCAtoday reports a new medieval cookbook and says: "  
> The recipe books of Frederick II is a comparison between two period  
> cookbooks The Meridionale and the Liber de coquina, both written in  
> the 13th and 14th centuries."  You can find the review of the  
> material at:
> http://www.ansamed.info/en/news/ME03.YAM17103.html
>
> Alys Katharine

This actually isn't new. I did a post on her titles to SCA Cooks
on August 3, 2006--
August 3, 2006

http://www.webster.it/vai_libri-author_Martellotti+Anna-shelf_BIT- 
Martellotti_Anna.html

I came across two titles by this author today-- Anna Martellotti.
One deals with foods related to Federico II in the 13th century.
The other with a translation of Arab recipes by Giambonino da Cremona
in the late 13th century.

Thought people might find them of interest.

Johnnae

_I ricettari di Federico II : dal "Meridionale" al "Liber de coquina"
review is here--
http://www.ext.upmc.fr/urfist/menestrel/cralimentation/Martellotti.pdf
also here
http://www.storiamedievale2.net/Rec/ricettari.htm

CULTURE: MIDDLE AGES - COOKBOOK ATTRIBUTED TO GOURMET EMPEROR FEDERICO II
Rome, Jan. 16th - (Adnkronos) - Emperor Federico II was also a
first-rate gourmet, a passionate connoisseur of the art of cooking. And
to his patronage we owe the writing up, between 1230 and 1250, of the
''Liber de coquina''. This is what is sustained by Anna Martellotti,
former German history professor at the University of Bari, in the essay
''I ricettari di Federico II'' [The recipe books of Federico II],
published by the Olschki publishing house.

The second is:
Il Liber de ferculis di Giambonino da Cremona : la gastronomia araba in
Occidente nella trattatistica dietetica

Review is in PPC 71
Anna Martellotti: Il Liber de ferculis di Giambonino de Cremona: Schena
Editore, Fasano, 2002: ISBN 88-8229-272-X: 420 pp., indexes, p/b,
L.44.000/Euro 22,72.

"In eleventh-century Baghdad, a physician compiled a medical
encyclopedia titled Minh?j al-Bay?n. Among its thousands of entries were
scores of recipes, soon to be excerpted and circulated on their own as a
cookbook. These doctor-approved recipes were plagiarized by several
later Arabic cookbooks, and there is much to be said about that.But what
followed was more surprising. In the late thirteenth century, 82 of the
recipes were translated into Latin by a certain Jamboninus of Cremona
under the title Liber deferculis et condimentis, and in the following
century the Latin was translated into German as P?ch von der Chosten.
Lately there has been an explosion of interest in the European versions,
culminating in the present study."
CHARLES PERRY

More about this at
http://www.olschki.it/Prosp/SP/2005/54422.pdf
It looks like it's 28 Euros. Plus shipping.

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:32:27 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Anyone seen this book?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Lilinah wrote:
> A friend of mine posted this to the west-cooks list and i thought
> that there might be someone here who knows about this:
>
>> The recipe books of Frederick II. From 'Meridionale' to 'Liber de  
>> coquina' by Anna Martellotti, Published by Leo S. Olschki Editore in the  
>> collection "Library of the Archivum Romanicum"
>>
>> Is it, as I fear, only available in Italian?
>>
>> 8)
>> Veronica
>> (looking at more info on Italian cooking!)

For some reason this book is being mentioned on various lists as being new!
It's not new at all. It came out in 2005 and was mentioned on the list a
year ago.

And yes you are going to have to be able to read Italian!

Johnnae

  From my original post back in August 2006

> _I ricettari di Federico II : dal "Meridionale" al "Liber de coquina"
> review is here--
> http://www.ext.upmc.fr/urfist/menestrel/cralimentation/Martellotti.pdf
> also here
> http://www.storiamedievale2.net/Rec/ricettari.htm
>
> CULTURE: MIDDLE AGES - COOKBOOK ATTRIBUTED TO GOURMET EMPEROR FEDERICO II
> Rome, Jan. 16th - (Adnkronos) - Emperor Federico II was also a
> first-rate gourmet, a passionate connoisseur of the art of cooking. And
> to his patronage we owe the writing up, between 1230 and 1250, of the
> ''Liber de coquina''. This is what is sustained by Anna Martellotti,
> former German history professor at the University of Bari, in the essay
> ''I ricettari di Federico II'' [The recipe books of Federico II],
> published by the Olschki publishing house.

Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:19:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Eleanor Fettiplace,	was: Re: The purpose of
	SCA-Cooks from Isabella de la Gryffin and a	Culinary Question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There are two editions of Fettiplace.  The one that is easiest to  
find is the bad one.  It is not
just what Eleanor Fettiplace wrote, but there are recipes added to it  
for several generations
thereafter.  And, unfortunately, Spurling doesn't date the different  
recipes at all.  She does
make mention of this in her foreward, but there is no way to know  
which are the 1604 recipes and
which are not.  The reason that I bring this up is that quite a few  
years ago we had someone post
that she had found a period recipe for chocolate mousse.  We thought  
that she had been kidding, so
we asked her where she found said recipe.  She said she found it in  
Fettiplace.  And it is there,
but it dates actually from the 18th century.  If you have the multi- 
volune edition, you can see
that it is from a later addition to Fettiplace.  Unfortunately, the  
single volume version doesn't
have this distinction and I hesitate to recommend this book to anyone  
unless they understand that
there are many recipes in that book that are _not_ even remotely period.

Huette

Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:07:51 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Eleanor Fettiplace, was: Re: The purpose of
	SCA-Cooks from Isabella de la Gryffin and a	Culinary Question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Helen Schultz wrote:
>   I have the 1986 version of Eleanor Fettiplace (by Spurling)... is  
> that a good one or a not so good one?? It is a single volume, so I  
> guess the latter. <sigh>
>
>   ~~Katarina Helene

The set that is just the recipes taken from the original is:
THE COMPLETE RECEIPT BOOK OF LADIE ELINOR FETTIPLACE<br> (Oxfordshire,
England 1604)

A 3-volume transcription of the complete original text of Elinor
Fettiplace?s manuscript recipe book. An index is included. Produced from
a transcription made by John Spurling, owner of the manuscript. Mostly
household recipes, some culinary. 68 pages. Stapled softcover booklet.
Import. Individual volumes available, please inquire. AVAILBILITY: The
complete 3-vol. set is currently unavailable, however individual volumes
from the set may be available, please contact Acanthus Books for
additional information.

*THE COMPLETE RECEIPT BOOK OF LADIE ELINOR FETTIPLACE (England 1604)*
$30.00

It's sold by Acanthus Books but apparently there's some supply issues at
the moment.
http://acanthus-books.stores.yahoo.net/index.html

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:56:04 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Eleanor Fettiplace, another source
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	Helen
	Schultz <meisterin02 at yahoo.com>

Ok Stuart Press and some of the associated pamphlets like the
Fetiplace set are also being listed as being available from
http://sykesutler.home.att.net/food.html

*The Complete Receipt Book of Ladie Elynor Fetiplace*: Late Tudor/early
Stuart. Never before published in full this is a 3 volume set
transcription of the whole original text. About 90% of the work is
household remedies from a country gentlewoman the remainder mainly
culinary. $36

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 07:05:31 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Accomplish'd  Lady's  Delight
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The full title for the book in question I think must be:

The Accomplish'd lady's delight in preserving, physick, beautifying, and
cookery containing I. the art of preserving and candying fruits &
flowers ..., II. the physical cabinet, or, excellent receipts in physick
and chirurgery : together with some rare beautifying waters, to adorn
and add loveliness to the face and body : and also some new and
excellent secrets and experiments in the art of angling, 3. the compleat
cooks guide, or, directions for dressing all sorts of flesh, fowl, and
fish, both in the English and French mode .../, London : Printed for B.
Harris, and are to be sold at his shop ..., 1675.

382 pages for this one but that varies greatly among editions. Only 200
for a later edition. As Mistress Brighid noted EEBO lists 1675, 1684,
1696 as having been microfilmed and then scanned for their online
collection.

The English Short Title Catalogue lists editions for 1675, two different
editions for 1677, 1683, then in the 18th century
it lists 1706, 1719 and one as [1720].

Sometimes attributed to Hannah Woolley.
Seventeenth century editions have the preface signed: T. P.

Bibliographies vary as to wrote the book. Woolley was dead by the
time it appeared, but she is often credited as the book contains recipes
from earlier credited works by her. 18th century editions often appear
credited to T.P. A number of catalogues just list it safely as ANON. or
uncredited.

Given as the 1675 edition [London : Printed for B. Harris, and are to be
sold at his shop ..., 1675]  is available on EEBO's Text Creation
Partnership where it can be downloaded
and keyword searched by academic audiences with access, do you suppose a
publisher would be interested in reprinting an edition of it now? I
presume of course that you must have spent considerable time retyping
out the book but given that EEBO-TCP already has it available in the
nice searchable version, I would think most people would like that  
version.

Johnnae

jah at twcny.rr.com wrote:
> I took a quick look and I believe it is not the same book.
>
> So I will be sending in my manuscript for that book
> and the other book to my new publisher
> at the end of the week and see what happens!
>
> Jules/Mistress Catalina

Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 09:48:59 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hannah's  titles was Accomplish'd  Lady's
	Delight
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Although The Accomplish'd lady's delight in preserving is a compilation and probably not the work of Hannah Woolley or Wooley r Wolley, there are books by
her available. (Powells currently lists a third edition 1683 for $2200, should anyone want an antiquarian copy of The ALDelight.)

Prospect Books published another work credited to her.
Woolley, Hannah. The Gentlewomans Companion. Or, A Guide to the Female Sex.
Totnes, Devon, U.K.: Prospect Books, 2001. Hardcover. 269 pp. ISBN: 0_907325_99_8. [A Reprint of the complete text of the 1675 second edition. Also includes an Introduction by Caterina Albano, pp. 7_50; A Note on the Text by Tom Jaine, p. 6; and a Glossary by Tom Jaine, pp. 247_269.] My review appears in the MoAS newsletter in 2002.
It can be found at:
arts.atenveldt.com/Portals/arts/Newsletters/jul2002.pdf

Hannah, however, protested in another volume that she didn't write the
Gentlewoman's Companion.
It's all explained in the excellent introduction written by Caterina  
Albano.

Amazon lists The Queen-like Closet or Rich Cabinet * *as an
IndyPublish.com  publication in hardcover for
prices ranging from $34 to $46 or as a paperback for $27.99. Or it's
available in a BiblioBazaar paperback in either large print
or regular print at less than $17.00. You can even take a look at the
text by searching inside the book
at Amazon.

BiblioBazaar is offering a list of their culinary reprints at
  http://www.bibliobazaar.com/subcat_booklist.php?cat_id=218 but they
fail to list The Queen-like Closet
or Moxon's *English Housewifery *under cookbooks.

Johnnae

Johnna  wrote 10/16/2007 7:05 AM snipped
> The full title for the book in question I think must be:
>
> The Accomplish'd lady's delight in preserving, physick,  
> beautifying, and cookery
>
> Bibliographies vary as to wrote the book. Woolley was dead by the
> time it appeared, but she is often credited as the book contains recipes
> from earlier credited works by her. 18th century editions often appear
> credited to T.P. A number of catalogues just list it safely as  
> ANON. or uncredited.
>
> Johnnae

Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:47:20 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fettiplace was Sweet Batatas Redux
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

People should be aware that that the household manuscript by Fettiplace
was not published before Spurling did her selected
version in 1986. The complete manuscript in three volumes wasn't  
published until Stuart Press released it in 3 volumes in the 1990's.
Saying it was published after her death in 1647 makes it sound like the
book was published in the late 1640's or 1650's and not the 1990's.

Johnnae

> Note:  Elinor Fettiplace was born in 1570 and began writing her cookbook in
> 1604.  The manuscript was published after her death in 1647.  The sweet
> potato recipes here are probably Elizabethan.
>
> These are both from Fettiplace

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 12:32:21 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Asian sources?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Chinese/Mongol:

Chang, K. C., ed.   *Food in Chinese Culture.*  New Haven:  Yale University
Press, 1977.

Buell, Paul D. and Eugene N. Anderson.  *A Soup for the Qan.*  London:  Kegan
Paul International,  2000.

Buell, Paul D.  "The Mongol Empire and its Legacy".  Ed. Reuven Amitai-Preiss and David O. Morgan.  Monograph from *Islamic History and Civilization*, Vol 2
Ed. Ulrich Haarmann and Wadad Kadi.  Leiden:  Brill, 1999. Japanese:
Ishige Naomichi. The History and Culture of Japanese Food. New York:  
Kegan Paul, 2001.

Lu Y?. The Classic of Tea. Francis Ross Carpenter, trans. Hopewell,  
NJ: The Ecco Press, 1974.

Bushu Sayama. Ryori Monogotari. Originally published 1643. Joshua Badgeley
trans., Ellen Badgeley, ed. Currently unpublished.

Okakura Kakuzo. The Book of Tea. Everett F. Bleiler, ed. New York: Dover
Publications, Inc., 1964.

Rodriguez, Joao. This Island of Japon. Michael Cooper, S. J., trans.  
Tokyo: Kodansha International, 1973.

Indian:

"A Dinner from Moghul India"--Madrone Culinary Guild--taken from similar
examples in Ain-I-Akbari by Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak.  A 16th c. Mughal
cookbook"

*The *Ni'matn?ma *Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu ("The Sultan's Book of
Delights)*
trans. Norah M. Titley.  Oxon, CA:  RoutledgeCurzon, 2005.
Husain, Salma, trans.  "Nushka-e-Shahjahani:  Pulaos from the Royal Kitchen
of Shah Jahan".  New Delhi:  Rupa & Co., 2004.

Hope this helps.  Some of these books have recipes, some contain mostly
descriptions of food, food service, etc.  The "Ryori Monogotari" has not yet
been published.  Dame Hauviette d'Anjou, Ii Saboru Katsumori, Abe no
Akirakeiko and I are working on publishing Ii-dono's translation.  At this
point, I can't really share recipes beyond what I handed out at the
Midrealm's Cooks' Symposium last fall.  If you want those, let me know and
I'll send you a copy of my class.

Kiri

Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 19:25:06 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Asian sources?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I just did an article on this topic, so here's part of the scoop:

The complete citation is:**

Wang, Teresa and E.N. Anderson. ?Ni Tsan and His 'Cloud Forest Hall
Collection of Rules for Drinking and Eating'.?/ Petits Propos
Culinaires. /[London: 1988] #60, pp. 24-41.

See also ?Some remarks about the translation of Yun Lintang Yinshi Zhidu
Ji? published in /PPC/ #61 [pp. 38-41]/ /by Francoise Sabban, which
offers corrections and alternative translations.

If you are going to interlibrary loan this--- get both articles.

MORE importantly---

The Ni Tsan manuscript was later corrected and the translation improved.
That article appears as a chapter in:

Anderson, Eugene N.,  Teresa Wang, and Victor Mair.  2005./  /"Ni Zan,
Cloud Forest Hall Collection of Rules for Drinking and Eating."/ /in:
Victor Mair, Nancy Steinhardt and Paul R. Goldin (eds.),/ Hawai'i Reader
in Traditional Chinese Culture. /Honolulu, HI:  University of Hawaii
Press. 2005.  Pp. 444-455.

This can be interlibrary loaned although the book is not that common.

Also you should be aware that

Gene or Eugene Anderson is also the author of */The Food of China./
[**New Haven: Yale University Press. 1988.] That work is widely
available. Additional notes and updates may be found on Anderson?s
website:
http://www.krazykioti.com/index.php? 
option=com_content&task=view&id=32&Itemid=45*

             Briefly I should mention that for Japanese fare and foods
there is this book:

Ishige, Naomi. /The history and culture of Japanese food/. London and
New York: Kegan Paul, 2001. 273 p.   Surveys the origins of Japanese
diet and foodways and includes bibliographies. It?s not a cookbook with
recipes.

Johnnae

Elaine Koogler wrote:
> Ooops....I forgot that one.  It was translated by Charles Perry and appeared
> in a PPC..."Ni Tsan and his 'Cloud Forest Hall Collection of Rules for
> Drinking and Eating'"  translated by Teresa Wang & E. N.  
> Anderson**. *Petit Propos Culinaires 60*.  London:  Prospect Books, 1998.
>
> Kiri

Date: Thu, 01 May 2008 20:51:58 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Opusculum de Saporibus was Old French Ailliee
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Opusculum de Saporibus is up on Thomas Gloning's website

http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/sapor.htm

Johnnae

Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
> As does, I believe, Opusculum de Saporibus (which, IIRC,
> is roughly contemporary to the Enseignements, fairly early by medieval
> cookbook standards).
>
> Adamantius

Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:39:11 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Translations - re Old French Ailliee or
	whatver
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

And in my case I was just supplying a place to find what
Master A asked for when on 5/1 at 7:33 PM

"Anybody gots a copy of "Opusculum de Saporibus" handy??? I could have
sworn I had a pdf, but it looks like I may have to go ransacking
through the stacks of smudgy photocopies..."

Adamantius

This version that Thomas provides is online and available.

Many of us probably have paper copies of "A Mediaeval Sauce-Book" by Lynn Thorndike
Speculum, Vol. 9, No. 2 (Apr., 1934), pp. 183-190. That version is on JSTOR now.

There's another version or paper of course:

Scully, Terence. "The *Opusculum de Saporibus* of Magninus
Mediolanensis." Medium Aevum, v. 54, no. 2, 1986: p. 178-207.

but again it isn't freely online yet. I can't provide a link to that one
or the Lynn Thorndike paper.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 02 May 2008 07:59:47 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Translations - re Old French Ailliee or
	whatver
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On May 2, 2008, at 7:39 AM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
> And in my case I was just supplying a place to find what
> Master A asked for when on 5/1 at 7:33 PM
>
> "Anybody gots a copy of "Opusculum de Saporibus" handy??? I could have
> sworn I had a pdf, but it looks like I may have to go ransacking
> through the stacks of smudgy photocopies..."
>
> Adamantius
>
> This version that Thomas provides is online and available.

Warning: you better be able to read Latin.

> Many of us probably have paper copies of "A Mediaeval Sauce-Book" by
> Lynn Thorndike
> Speculum, Vol. 9, No. 2 (Apr., 1934), pp. 183-190. That version is on
> JSTOR now.

Yes, that's what I've got. It includes a copy of the text and, I
think, the chapter from de Villanova's Regimen Sanitatis on sauces for
tempering health issues connected to diet, believed by many to be
essentially the same text. No translation, but an odd discussion that
resembles a sportscaster's play-by-play.
"And then he says..."

But it's nice to have the Latin text available, at least.

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 18:03:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] the book, was ... now: Anonimo Meridionale
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

<<< The Anonimo Meridionale manuscripts can be located in the book:

Bostrom, Ingemar ed. Due libri di cucina. Stockholm : Almqvist & 
Wiksell, 1985. (Acta Universitatis Stockholmensis*)

*The manuscripts are actually now owned by the University of Stockholm 
which is why two Italian manuscripts were published in Sweden and not in Italy.

Does anyone else own the actual book?

Johnnae >>>

On page VI of the book, it is stated, that the manuscripts then were part of a private collection in Stockholm ("... e fa parte di una collezione privata di Stoccolma.").

Today, they are owned by the "Fondation B.IN.G. Bibliotheque Internationale de Gastronomie" in Lugano (Suisse). See their website, where "Anonimo Meridionale" is mentioned:

http://www.fondationbing.org/italiano/Biblioteca.htm

They have pretty things.
(The homepage in English is here: http://www.fondationbing.org/inglese/Home.htm)

E.

Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 18:10:37 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Anonimo Meridionale
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

To correct myself. Anonimo Meridionale is _one_ manuscript with two parts (Libro A, Libro B).

E.

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 17:21:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cookbooks for Beginners
To: edoard at medievalcookery.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

And if you are doing Martino there's also the very nice CD-rom edition
http://www.octavo.com/editions/mrtlac/
Martino: Coquinaria (Edition, 1 CD) 1-891788-83-3
Commentary by Gillian Riley,
- Foreword by Alice Waters of Chez Panisse
- Essay: Maestro Martino?s Cookery Book and Its Manuscripts, by Bruno 
Laurioux
Searchable, cross-linked English translation of the Italian text by 
Gillian Riley
- Note on the calligraphy by Paul Shaw
- Magnify up to 400%

It's nice to have both in one's collection and of course the true 
completist will also want Claudio Benporat's works that feature Martino too. Those can be purchased and shipped in from Italy.

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:20:19 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cookbooks for Beginners
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I jumped ahead on this thread (good thing) because I was about to say  
EXACTLY the same thing.

If you are doing Martino corpus work get the CD-rom.
The California Press translation is not as good as Riley's (although  
both make some interesting choices) and the extras on the CD are  
FANTASTIC!
The introduction (which is the best part) to the Parzen translation  
can be found on the web here http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/ 
9423/9423.intro.php

As Johnnae mentions below Benporat for the true completist as well as  
the various De Honestas (last five books based on Martino), the  
Italian and Englsih versions of the Epulario and the Vatican and Riva  
del Guarde manuscripts on microfilm! :) OK so maybe that is going a  
bit to far. The Neapolitan is a must have but as has been mentioned  
before is REALLY badly organized.

There are also two other manuscripts related to Martino in England,  
one at the British Library and one Sheffield, I will be reviewing  
both this fall.

Eduardo

Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:40:42 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tudor Cook Recipes in PDF
To: "mk-cooks at midrealm.org" <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>,
	"sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Greetings!  Hampton Court has done a small booklet ("The Taste of Fire") about the kitchens with some historic recipes in it.  You can find two recipes - one for buknade and one for perre - at http://www.hrp.org.uk/Resources/tudorcookeryrecipes.pdf .  It's a nice little booklet (48 pages) and cost me 4.99 pounds which is about $10 US.  It's quite a nice, historically-based work with recipes and photos scattered throughout.  You might like to see the two recipes they've put online.

Alys Katharine

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 19:41:43 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Book of Sent Sovi?: Medieval recipes from
	Catalonia
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Book of Sent Sovi?: Medieval recipes from Catalonia

description of the book is here:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/55661640.HTM

It was announced for March, then set for June and has now been pushed back
until fall.

**Publication date: 18/Sep/2008
Price: 34.95 USD / 16.99 GBP

So another one for Autumn.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 19:54:16 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] The Book of Sent Sovi?: Medieval recipes from
	Catalonia
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

My copy of The Book of Sent Sovi?: Medieval Recipes from Catalonia
arrived today. Looks interesting, although I have to note that I noticed
at once that it's one of these books that lacks an index. No way to quickly
determine which ingredients are in which of the LXII recipes or the 16  
recipes included in the Appendix.

Each original recipe gets it own page; the facing page on the right hand
side of the text is the English translation. There's enough white space 
on most pages to allow for personal annotations or notes.

Johnnae

Johnna  wrote on 7/16/2008
<<< The Book of Sent Sovi?: Medieval recipes from Catalonia
description of the book is here:
http://www.boydell.co.uk/55661640.HTM
It was announced for March, then set for June and has now been pushed 
back until fall.
**Publication date: 18/Sep/2008
Price: 34.95 USD / 16.99 GBP
So another one for Autumn.
Johnnae  >>>

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:12:47 -0400
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] book question
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Gwen asked about Ken Albala's "Cooking in Europe".  My personal impression
is that it's a fairly general, for-non-experienced-cooks book.  He gives a
lot of recipes from medieval cookery texts, either English translations or
the English text.  There are no modern interpretations of the recipes but
he does do an explanation of what he thinks is happening in the recipe.  

The first eight pages comprise a list of the recipes.  Then there are eight
pages listing the recipes by country and time (Middle Ages, Renaissance,
Late Renaissance and Elizabethan Era.  There is one sheet (two page/sides)
of "Recipes for Special Occasions" which includes the ever-popular roasted
cat recipe.  Next come 6 pages/sides of a glossary for terms such as
trencher, verjuice, soffrito, comfits, leach... you get the idea.  Then
follow 8 pages of series foreword, acknowledgement and preface.  The
Introduction, which is the teaching/explantory part of the book comprises
pages 1-28, covering topics such as safety, finding spices, ovens, finding
a recipe, meal structure, sauces, meat, tableware, unfamiliar flavors and
practices...  The recipes start on page 29 and go to page 135.

So, if you are a beginner or not terribly experienced, you will probably
glean quite a bit.  If you are experienced with medieval cookery, it might
be nice to have just to say you have it and share it with someone, but you
might not get a lot from it unless his explanations of certain recipes
fills your knowledge gap.

Alys K.

Elise Fleming
alysk at ix.netcom.com
http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:25:08 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] book question
To: tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

This title fits in with a series of books that covers ancient through 
modern cookery.
It's a good set for libraries and schools, less valuable perhaps for the 
committed SCA cook.

You might like another Greenwood title more:

Morton, Mark and Andrew Coppolino. *Cooking with Shakespeare*. Westport, 
CT: Greenwood Press, 2008. Series: Feasting with Fiction. 320 pp.

I have a review in process on that one. Not published yet.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:03:47 -0700
From: edoard at medievalcookery.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Noble Boke of Cokery of 2007 was Chawettys
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

It's also worth noting that the "A Noble Boke of Cokery" available for
sale from http://tudorcook.blogspot.com/ is not the same text as the "A
Noble Boke off Cookry" available online for free at
http://www.medievalcookery.com/etexts.html

The free, online text ("A Noble Boke off Cookry") is a transcription of
a single 15th century manuscript, as presented in a book published in
1882 by Robina Napier.

- Doc

-------- Original Message --------
From: Johnna Holloway 

Ah, how to work with this A Noble Boke of Cokery.
Here are some tips:
First,
Read the extensive forward in the front of the
book where Richard explains about the text and unusual spellings and things
like i for j, v for u, vv  instead of w, etc.

What the book is?

  Fitch's A Noble Boke of Cokery is a compilation of recipes from
a number of sources.
The  secret or what you aren't being told is that the recipes appear in 
other books or even on the web. It would have
been nice had A Noble Boke of Cokery actually mentioned someplace
where these recipes came from, but no matter here's your cheat sheet.

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:43:21 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Noble Boke of Cokery of 2007 was Chawettys
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

They could not have made it anymore complicated, could they?
No sources listed and the title confuses. One reason to call it

Fitch's A Noble Boke of Cokery
or 
  A Noble Boke of Cokery of 2007, I guess.

I thought last year that they should named this complied book something like
Receipts of Cookry or At the Prince's Table or The Medieval Table.

Napier's book from the 1880's is based on the Holkham MSS 674. Napier 
didn't do a very good job
when she copied the book from the original mss. There are several recipes
missing as well as other problems. Constance Hieatt has done several articles
that compare this manuscript to the Pynson volume of 1500.

One of those is:

Sources of, and Analogues to, the Noble Boke of Cokery by Constance B. Hieatt
 /Journal of the Early Book Society for the Study of Manuscripts and
Printing History. /Volume 3 (2000)
Edited by Martha Driver, Pace University.

We also mention and include Napier, of course, in the Concordance..

 Believe it or not, I can do the comparisons in house now between 
Napier, Holkham and Pynson volumes because I own copies of all three.
One is on CD, one is on microfilm, and one is the actual book. We won't 
mention the cost or how long it took to find and get them here;
let's just say that obsessions can cost $$$. I can't wait until the new 
facsimile two volumes Pynson is finally out. That will be another huge expenditure, I'm sure.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:10:35 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] UC Titles was The Eminent Maestro Martino of
	Como
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Antonia asked:
Johnna Holloway wrote:
Zaouali, Lilia
Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World
A Concise History with 174 Recipes
California Studies in Food and Culture, 18
$24.95 hardcover, $15.95 hardcover on sale

Does anyone know whether this one is worth having?
-------------------------

Well... Depends on what you want to do with the recipes.

It has recipes translated into English that have never been 
translated before, so it is useful for that.
- 52 from al-Fadalat al-Khiwan by ibn Razin al-Tujibi from 
al-Andaluz, dated 1230
- 36 from Kanz al-Fawaid fitanwi al-mawaid from 13th C. Egypt
- 29 from the Kitab al-Wusla ila al-Habib from 13th C. Syria

- And 24 from ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's compendium of 9th & 10th C recipes
(the whole book was published around the same time as Zaouali's, 
translated by Nawal Nasrallah, but it costs around $200 US - however 
Nasrallah's book is a work of true scholarship)

It has a section in the back with modern North African recipes (which 
the author thinks show culinary continuity) and many are for dishes 
in none of my other Moroccan and North African cookbooks. Obviously 
not relevant to the SCA, but if you like Maghribi food, like i do...

The introductory matter is useful if one does not have other books, 
like "Medieval Arab Cookery", and it does have some information not 
in M*A*C.

But it is not a work of scholarship like Nasrallah's. The recipes 
appear to have been selected somewhat at random. Since they have been 
wrested from their original manuscripts they lack context. Instead we 
have recipes from 4 books, from 2 centuries, and from 4 different 
cultures. There's no way to compare the books to see how they may be 
similar and how they differ from one another. This makes trying to 
study the changes in cuisines in the Arabic speaking world rather 
difficult.

I bought it for full price last winter and i think it is worth $25. 
But i also find it extremely frustrating for the reasons above, and i 
hope that the complete texts of the three 13th C. books are 
evenutally translated and published.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 15:58:06 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Forthcoming titles Fall 2008 LONG
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

As promised sometime back here's a list of some forthcoming
fall 08- winter 09
titles that might be of interest to readers of this list.
They cover a full range of topics.
I've included details, descriptions or links where I have them.
A number of the lists I used didn't record prices possibly because
they were not yet set.

Johnnae

-----------------
Food historian Ivan Day has a new book coming out. It's titled:
COOKING IN EUROPE 1650-1850
Publication Date - 11th November 2008
http://www.historicfood.com/events.htm
Or you can check out the book also at
http://www.greenwood.com/catalog/GR4624.aspx
-------
There are new editions appearing:

  These include a new edition of Roman Cookery: Ancient Recipes for
Modern Kitchens  (Paperback) by Mark Grant
   coming in November. *Paperback:* 192 pages
  Serif Publishing; 2 Rev Upd edition (November 15, 2008)

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:12:24 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Llibre de totes maneres de confits / Llibre
	de Sent Sov?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 4:07 PM, emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> wrote:
<<< http://publicacions.iec.cat/repository/pdf/00000015/00000029.pdf

Looks like a revised / new edition

Llibre de Sent Sov? / Llibre de totes maneres de potatges de menjar, a cura
de Rudolf GREWE (?). Edici? revisada per Amadeu J. SOBERANAS i Joan SANTANACH. Llibre de totes maneres de confits, edici? cr?tica de Joan SANTANACH I SU?OL. Barcelona, Barcino (Els Nostres Cl?ssics, B 22), 2003, 327 pp. ISBN 84-7226-706-7.

ESZ >>>

It is.  I had it on pre-order with Amazon, and had to wait a very long time
as it didn't come out as originally scheduled.  I have it now and, though I
haven't had a chance to look at it closely, it looks to be good.  I do know
Joan Santanach's work from a previous publication on Italian cooking, and
that one was superb!

Kiri

Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 16:50:03 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Llibre de totes maneres de confits / Llibre
	de Sent Sov?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

What Freda was looking at--
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/confits.htm
is the "*Libre de totes maneres de confits*". Un tratado manual
cuatrocentista de arte de dulcer?a. In: Bolet?n de la Real Academia de
Buenas Letras de Barcelona 19 (1946) 97-134.
Vincent Cuenca  was working on a
translation of this several years back according to the website at
http://www.thousandeggs.com/msproj.html

As far as I can determine the new book titled in English The Book of
Sent Sovi does not include Llibre de totes maneres de confits or the MS
68 of the Library of the University of Barcelona. The 2003 or 2004
*Llibre de sent sov? ; Llibre de totes maneres de potatges de menjar /*
book edited by Grewe did include Llibre de totes maneres de confits,
edici? cr?tica de Joan SANTANACH I SU?OL.It was 327 pages and according
to the cataloguing also included "Llibre de totes maneres de potatges de
menjar.; 2004.; Llibre de totes maneres de confits.; 2004."

This 2008 edition in English is based upon a 2006 work published in 
Barcelona and it seems to have left it out. It's only 232
pages and many pages are full of white space.*

Johnnae*

emilio szabo wrote:
http://publicacions.iec.cat/repository/pdf/00000015/00000029.pdf
Looks like a revised / new edition

Llibre de Sent Sov? / Llibre de totes maneres de potatges de menjar, a cura de Rudolf GREWE (?). Edici? revisada per Amadeu J. SOBERANAS i Joan SANTANACH. Llibre de totes maneres de confits, edici? cr?tica de Joan SANTANACH I SU?OL. Barcelona, Barcino (Els Nostres Cl?ssics, B 22), 2003, 327 pp. ISBN 84-7226-706-7.

ESZ >>>

Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 13:04:07 -0400
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New Book on Maya Cooking- Gene Anderson
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
Dear Authentic Cooks:  I have just brought out a book, MAYALAND
CUISINE, about the traditional cooking of the Maya areas of
Mexico--the Yucatan Peninsula plus the states of Chiapas and Tabasco.
The recipes are all things I collected myself from people there or
translated from obscure local cookbooks (mostly pamphlets of very
limited circulation). The recipes are all traditional--which sometimes
means they go back 2000 years and sometimes only 100, so use with
caution if you want to be authentically pre-1700!  > > > > > > >

This looks like a cool book.  It does seem to be a 'traditional' cookery
book rather than a book to rely on for discerning actual Mayan food
traditions during the time of the Mayan Empire rise and fall.  It should be
able to familiarize us with what their cookery became, and build some
beginning foundation for inferences . . . but NOT be a direct reference for
period Mayan cookery.  Cool book for what it proclaims to be . . . wolf in
sheeps clothing when people start dragging it out as documentation.  Several
books have already been b at stardized that way in the last 10 years.

I hope this one is appreciated for what it is and not made to fit into the
'primary resource' (or even secondary) category.

Call me a cynic,
niccolo difrancesco

Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 22:25:58 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "The Medieval Kitchen"
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

We've discussed it here, but the current archives don't cover the period. 
It's a good reference work with transcriptions and translations of original 
recipes and adaptations.  In some cases, the adaptations don't precisely 
follow the original recipe, but a careful reading will show you where they 
differ.  I use my copy fairly often and I've given a couple as gifts.

Bear

<<< A friend showed me her copy of "The Medieval Kitchen" at our business
meeting this evening. I *think* I remember it being discussed here but can't
find any mention of it in the archives using "The Medieval Kitchen" in the
search function.

Help?

Hrothny >>>

Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2008 08:39:35 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "The Medieval Kitchen"
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I did find it mentioned and recommended in the archives so we have 
discussed it in the last two years.

My entry from the article I did for Tournaments Illuminated lists it as

Redon, Odile, Francoise Sabban, and Silvano Serventi. /The Medieval 
Kitchen/. /Recipes from France and Italy./ Chicago: University of 
Chicago, 1998. French edition was /Gastronomie au Moyen/ /Age/, 1991; 
German was /Die Kochkunst des Mittelalters./ The American edition is 
translated by Edward Schneider. Available in paperback. 150 14^th and 
15^th century recipes. A favorite of many society cooks.

It has a wide variety of recipes and I think that people find it 
valuable because there's enough variety from which to construct an 
entire feast. Note that it contains just Italian and French recipes. It 
doesn't cover England or Spain for example. Good bibliography. The 
original recipes are also included in a separate section.

I should mention that Sabban and Serventi went on and did two more 
volumes that covered the Renaissance and the 17th century, but those 
volumes have never
been translated into English. I did locate and purchase the French 
editions some years back.

The American volume by the University of Chicago Press is still in 
print. I think Devra carries it, so you could get it from her.

 Johnnae

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 11:43:49 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "The Medieval Kitchen"
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I'm pretty certain it is still in print in paperback. What went out 
of print was the hard cover edition.

I think "The Medieval Kitchen" is a wonderful book. I would recommend 
it without hesitation to the beginning historical cook and even to 
more experienced cooks for a few reasons.

First, while it has many recipes we can find in other sources, it 
also has recipes nowhere else available in English.

Second, the introductory matter is excellent for the beginning 
historical cook, and even for the intermediate cook who may not have 
looked into all the issues covered.

Third, it mostly focuses on Mediterranean cuisines (well, Paris is 
not in the Mediterranean, but anyway...), and, well, Mediterranean 
cuisines are the best cuisines, other than that Arabic-language 
corpus (ok, ok, this is my personal bias and not objective :-) It was 
the first Medieval cookbook i bought after i joined the SCA.

The modern versions of the recipes are almost uniformly quite tasty, 
if not always 100 per cent "period", but they're good starters for 
beginning historical cooks. I don't use them, however, preferring to 
work from the original recipe.

My biggest frustration with the book is that the recipes in their 
original languages are in the waaaaay back of the book and they're in 
a medieval-oid typeface. That is, my two biggest frustrations with 
the book are...
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:34:57 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Anna Selby's Food through the Ages
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

My back-ordered copy of Anna Selby's
Food Through the Ages. From Stuffed Dormice to Pineapple
Hedgehogs came this afternoon.[www.pen-and-sword.co.uk]
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/?product_id=1660

It's an odd book to say the least.
Of interest to people on this list might be the
"Acknowledgements" which thank Daniel Myers and his website
medievalcookery.com. Besides medievalcookery.com, the bibliography
mentions Thomas Gloning's website and www.davidfriedman.com's
Le Menagier. She also mentions that she got the Roman recipes
from Carnegie Mellon University's CS department
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes/ethnic/historical/ant-rom-coll.html

She seems to have taken the recipes off the web and not
out of actual books for the most part. It only lists 18 books in the
bibliography and doesn't include such classics as C. Anne Wilson
or any of the Prospect Press volumes.

Johnna, playing librarian

Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:36:43 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Scappi information was  OMG!  SCAPPI IS
	HERE!!!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Heleen Greenwald wrote:
> What is SCAPPI?

Only the beginning and end all of Renaissance Italian cookery books.

Bartolomeo Scappi (c. 1500-1577) was the cook for several Cardinals and 
later became the personal cook for two Popes. Unlike other cooks, he 
actually compiled his own cookbook,  which just happens to be "the 
largest cookery treatise of the period to instruct an apprentice on the 
full craft of fine cuisine, its methods, ingredients, and recipes. 
Accompanying his book was a set of unique and precious engravings that 
show the ideal kitchen of his day, its operations and myriad utensils, 
and are exquisitely reproduced in this volume."

If you've done any work with kitchen images you've seen those illustrations.

The book has  more than one thousand recipes along with menus that 
comprise up to a hundred dishes. It's this huge source of intriguing 
recipes. Many of us bought the Forni volume
in facsimile and have used that volume, but price has made that option 
unattractive.  
https://www.fornieditore.com/flex/FixedPages/IT/ShowOpera.php/L/EN/IDMateria/FF/IDArgomento/-1/SKU/2292%203

To get a taste of what the book offers, see 
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/
Mistress Helewyse fell in love with the volume and over the past few 
years has done a number of translations using the recipes and posted 
them on her website.

The major problem for most people is that the work was never translated 
into English... until now. Finally Professor Terence Scully has 
completed the first English translation of the work. "His aim is to make 
the recipes and the broad experience of this sophisticated papal cook 
accessible to a modern English audience interested in the culinary 
expertise and gastronomic refinement within the most civilized niche of 
Renaissance society."

Johnnae

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:42:37 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

My copy has arrived.  I am pleased, and not just because it's a
translation of a significant period cookbook in a language I don't
read.  Now I can see which recipes in Granado were (or were not)
plagiarized from Scappi.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com

Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:47:47 -0800
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Martino was Re:  Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I like it very much.  The new translation's editor, Prof. Luigi 
Ballerini, lectured for the Culinary Historians of Southern Calfornia 
when it came out and signed my copy.   When Renata and I told him about 
actually using it as a cookbook and why, he wanted an invitation to a 
feast.  We had better throw one some time soon!  He also went on about 
peacocks served with the skin on but not in my kitchen bub.  1.  
salmonella, 2. protected species in L.A. County.

Amazon lets you look inside: 
http://www.amazon.com/Art-Cooking-Cookery-California-Studies/dp/0520232712

Selene

Maria Buchanan wrote:
<<<  What's everyone's view on the book Art of Cooking: The First Modern Cookery Book?  I bought it recently and haven't gotten it yet, but I'm waiting a little impatiently.  I also recently bought a book called DaVinci's Kitchen, which is really good, and one called The Renaissance of Italian cooking, which I'm also waiting for.
I'm really enjoying DaVinci's Kitchen.  I'm hoping the other two are good.  

Maria >>>

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 08:39:59 -0500
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gaylinwalli at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Happy about Scappi
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have to confess I've not gotten my copy of Scappi yet due to finances, but
I thought I would at least let people know that I already know of one
publication in the works, written by Mistress Helewyse and Master Basilius
of the Midrealm, that should serve as an excellent companion to the Scappi
work. They're working on an SCA cooking guide to using the publication to
help cooks deal with some of Scully's errors with weights and measures (and
some counter arguments about a few of the ingredients, with evidence and
explanations). When I talked to Helewyse about it the other day she said
she'd be happy to format up a saveable, double-sided cheat sheet for
everyone (I asked for laminated cardstock, but I'm demanding that way
*grin*). I can't wait to see both the translation and the critique of
Scully. I think it will go a long way to further out research efforts.

Iasmin

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:51:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Translation issues (was Happy about Scappi)
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

You rang? 
I have both copies of Scappi in my possession, both the Italian and the translation and I am going through the book recipe by recipe as is Master Basilius.

We are noticing several issues with translation.  Some are a matter of interpretation, some are fairly serious if you are planning to try and recreate the recipes.  Here are some examples: 
The interpretation issues - lardo/strutto - lardo is a salted back fat product which can (for some recipes) be rendered liquid it is not lard, strutto is unsalted pork fat (NOT pork kidney fat as he translates) that is melted and clarified with water this is lard. It is the difference between using bacon grease and lard (as we know them).  The translation gives lardo (in it's melted form) as lard and strutto as melted pork fat.  Sigh.

Limoncello - little lemons, there are two kinds of lemons, big ones (sweet) and little ones (sour), Scully translates these as Limes, a fruit NEVER associated with Italian cooking.  Think about it!

The big issues - weights and measures, both me and basilius have the Italian weights and measures book, it is a bible, it gives accurate modern equivalents to the miriad of Italian weights and measures before they were standardized in the 18th century.

A libro is 12oz not 16 as stated by scully.
A bichhiere (beaker) is 0.17L -0.22L not 0.5L 
There are more but I'm only about 1/2 way through the second book, putting lots of slips of paper into the translated copy.

I'm planning on putting together an article for SCA use (probably send it to TI to publish but keep copyright so that it can be posted around places. If you can give me the recipe/book number for the salted mushroom recipes I'll look it up and let you know what I think.

Helewyse
--------------
On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:42 PM, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
<<< My copy has arrived.  I am pleased, and not just because it's a
translation of a significant period cookbook in a language I don't
read.  Now I can see which recipes in Granado were (or were not)
plagiarized from Scappi. >>>

So far I'm a little thrown by the recipes that call for a single  
salted mushroom to be soaked to desalinate. I'm wondering about  
translation issues...
Adamantius

Paging Mistress Helewyse...
Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:55:57 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Translation issues (was Happy about Scappi)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:51 AM, Louise Smithson wrote:
<<< The interpretation issues - lardo/strutto - lardo is a salted back  
fat product which can (for some recipes) be rendered liquid it is  
not lard, strutto is unsalted pork fat (NOT pork kidney fat as he  
translates) that is melted and clarified with water this is lard. It  
is the difference between using bacon grease and lard (as we know  
them).  The translation gives lardo (in it's melted form) as lard  
and strutto as melted pork fat.  Sigh. >>>

Lard is always confusing; it has a number of possible interpretations,  
depending on who you talk to; it's especially tough for Americans who  
are used only to dealing with a pound block or tub of rendered leaf  
lard (which _is_, or at least should be, kidney fat). Here it's  
probably a matter of deciding whether to use the word that comes  
closest to the word being used in the original, to get the best  
lyrical or colloquial sense, or the best functional match -- for  
example, I've seen modern Italians use the term "lardo" for a variety  
of prosciutto and guanciale-type products; they contain fat but are  
neither kidney/loin-based nor rendered; the main requirement seems to  
be that they should be fatty, but something cured.

<<< Limoncello - little lemons, there are two kinds of lemons, big ones  
(sweet) and little ones (sour), Scully translates these as Limes, a  
fruit NEVER associated with Italian cooking.  Think about it! >>>

Ehhh, not exactly. I believe he says, in a footnote, something more  
like, "the text of the recipe makes it pretty clear that he's  
referring to citrons, the term for which would translate into English  
as something like 'sour limes', but in the title the 'sour' part is  
omitted, leading to some confusing vagueness". It doesn't sound to me  
like he's caught up in the error or trying to get us to do the same;  
unfortunately he's just not expressing the nature or extent of the  
error very clearly, either.

And then, there's the question of "never saying never". We're trying  
to learn something new here; it would be unfortunate to close our  
minds to some possibility simply because it's something outside of our  
experience. Questioning it, OTOH, is a good thing.

I'm planning on putting together an article for SCA use (probably  
send it to TI to publish but keep copyright so that it can be posted  
around places. If you can give me the recipe/book number for the  
salted mushroom recipes I'll look it up and let you know what I think.

I think it's Book III, Lean Dishes Other Than Fish (or some such),  
recipes 235 and 236? They refer to mushrooms in the singular, which  
may be some sort of weird grammatical thing or other translation  
issue, or maybe some particular type of really big mushroom? Or maybe  
something else that happens to share a name, or sound similar, to  
mushrooms in general or some specific mushroom type?

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:04:40 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] DaVinci and Martino was Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I might agree with this /Except/ for the fact that in the preceding paragraph
Gillian Riley is described as "Renaissance food expert Gillian Riley..."
Clearly he recognized that she is alive and well and writing in the present age.

I don't think he knew that anything about Benporat  or even knew the name.
The author wrote me that he picked up most of his information from secondary sources. He did not apparently use or read any of Benporat's books, so the 
information about this feast came from another source.

I suspect in his notes that he recorded that Claudio lived in 1500 and 
that note made its way into the book.

I also asked about one of the other menus that he cites and he had no idea in 2007 where he found the mention of it nor could he say where to look.

Some of us discussed the book back in 2007 and decided that the book was a rush job that was supposed to cash in on the interest created by a certain Ron Howard/Tom Hanks film. The book was originally set to be published the month the
film was released. In the end I decided not to review the book. The author seemed like a very nice guy but seemed to be in way over his head.

Johnnae

--------------
otsisto wrote:
The statement can be taken that Claudio Benporat wrote about banquets in the
1500s for the pope and not that he was from the 1500s. Though I do see the
title of "chronicler" does seem to lean the statement toward Mr. Benporat
being of the time period.

De

-----Original Message-----
"The chronicler Claudio Benporat, writing about 1500, describes one
of the more elaborate banquets for the pope:  " on page 103.

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:39:22 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino was Re: Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

You probably should also take a look at:
the Octavo  cd version of Martino also.

"Martino's work has a particular importance, as it is the major source
for the recipes in the first epicure's handbook to be published in
Europe, De Honesta Voluptate (On Virtuous Pleasure) of 1473-75 by the
Vatican librarian known as ?Il Platina.? Platina?s printed book appeared
in numerous editions and exerted a wide influence; Martino's work
survives only in a single manuscript, now in the Library of Congress.
This seminal text, in its wonderfully legible humanistic hand, is
reproduced in breathtaking facsimile in this Octavo Edition, along with
a new English translation by cookery historian Gillian Riley, which
brings the cultured savor of this Renaissance masterpiece into a useful
modern idiom. 176 pages, $35. " NOW $40 plus S/H

http://www.octavo.com/editions/mrtlac/

Then we could also talk about the full Italian versions by Benporat also.
Those are available too, but of course the Euro is still high versus the 
dollar.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:45:40 -0500
From: "Barbara Benson" <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino was Re: Happy about Scappi
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Maria Buchanan wrote:
<<< What's everyone's view on the book Art of Cooking: The First
Modern Cookery Book? >>>

I have it and have utilized it as a resource for a feast, and I love
it. I have redacted several things out of it and plan on doing more. I
find it fascinating and for the feast I ended up doing much of my
research with it, a copy of Platina and Cuco Neapolitain sitting in
front of me, constantly cross referencing. The Martino book actually
has the entirety of Art of Cooking and then selections from 2 later
publications/rip-offs of the text. The editors have only included
recipes that they feel significantly diverge from the original.

I have started an A&S project that will have comparisons of the same
recipe from the different sources for comparison, the idea being to
understand how recipes evolved and changed from book to book. To hit a
fine line between being labeled a tease and posting too much
information, here is an example of one of the dishes I did for the
feast and it's comparison:
***
Platina 8:50 - Snacks
Grind up a little Parmesan cheese, not too hard, and the same amount
of fresh cheese. Beat two egg whites. Mix in whole raisins, cinnamon,
ginger and saffron, and fold into meal which has been worked and
spread out well to the size you want. Then cook it in an oven, not too
much, for it will be more pleasant thus. They, however, are of little
nourishment, are slowly digested, induce blockages, and create stone.

Neapolitan: 159 - Offelle
Get good soft cheese with little salt, and have it grated; get eggs,
whole raisins, cinnamon, ginger and saffron, mix all this together and
make this filling rather thick; get a thin pastry dough as for lasagna
and bind [i.e., wrap] the filling in the dough like lasagna. Making
them large or small as you wish, yellowing the top; bake in an oven
that is not too hot; they should not be overcooked.

Martino: Chapter 4 - How to make Offella
Take some good Parmesan cheese that has not been overly aged, and a
bit of another type of fresh cheese, and grate, adding some egg
whites, whole raisins, some cinnamon, ginger, and a bit of saffron.
Mix all these things, incorporating well, and make sure that this
filling is slightly thick. Then take a thin dough, like that used for
making lasagna, and wrap the offelle in this dough, making them large,
medium-sized, or small, as you wish, giving them some yellow coloring
on top with saffron, or whatever other color you wish; and cook them
in the oven, and be careful that the oven is not too hot. Because they
should not be overcooked.
***

They are quite obviously the same dish, and you can see the
instructions vary quite a bit. I think I need a better translation of
Platina before I go any further into this. Comparing the texts I have
become very suspicious of the translation I have (the Pegasus Press
version). Has anyone been able to compare different translations of De
Honesta?
--
Serena da Riva

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:12:26 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< "... Martino's work survives only in a single manuscript,
now in the Library of Congress. ..."

Aren't there three further ones?

E. >>>

Four others according to Ballerini.  There is a manuscript held untranslated 
in a private collection in addition to the translated manuscripts in the 
Vatican Library, Riva Del Garda, and Pierpont Morgan Library.

Bear

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:17:52 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Well....the Library of Congress and Vatican manuscripts are said to be 
almost exactly the same.

Bear

<<< Yeah well when you are marketing one version it pays to emphasize that it's unique, eh? I think the LoC manuscript is generally accepted as the most 
complete. This was taken from Octavo's marketing materials.

I did offer up the Benporat volume too. They are all in that one.

Johnna >>>

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:00:26 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] DaVinci and Martino was Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I am afraid that DaVinci's Kitchen didn't meet my standards.
A bibliography was promised on a web site. Then they decided
not to publish the bibliography at all.

I actually corresponded with the author about some of his sources
and where he got certain facts. The upshot was that he couldn't remember 
what the sources were. I mean really!

One of the most hilarious things that I came across in the book was
this quote:

"The chronicler Claudio Benporat, writing about 1500, describes one
of the more elaborate banquets for the pope" on page 103.

I was really amused by this because I have corresponded with Claudio
Benporat and as far as I know he is alive and well and living in Bologna.
He's a very prominent Italian food historian in fact.
Even if he has died, I doubt that he transported himself back to 1500.
Yet here we have him credited for a banquet in 1500?!?

This is like they say really funny or really sad.
And in any case I wouldn't trust this book at all.

-------------

The University of California Press published  The Art of Cooking.
It's by Parzen and is good English version of the 15th c. Martino manuscript.
I will warn you that the "fifty modernized recipes by acclaimed Italian 
chef Stefania Barzini."
do contain potatoes, cherry tomatoes, red pepper, etc.
I mean here when they say modernized, it really means modernized!

For the money I still think people ought to buy Italian Cuisine: A Cultural History by Capatti and Montanari. It's by Columbia University Press which also 
published Pasta by Silvano Serventi and Francoise Sabban. Both of those are excellent books and good food histories.

Johnnae (playing librarian)

Maria Buchanan wrote:
<<< Hey all.  What's everyone's view on the book Art of Cooking: The First Modern Cookery Book?  I bought it recently and haven't gotten it yet, but I'm waiting a little impatiently.  I also recently bought a book called DaVinci's Kitchen, which is really good, and one called The Renaissance of Italian cooking, which I'm also waiting for.
I'm really enjoying DaVinci's Kitchen.  I'm hoping the other two are good.  

Maria >>>

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:35:01 -0600
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] DaVinci and Martino was Happy about Scappi
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The statement can be taken that Claudio Benporat wrote about banquets in the
1500s for the pope and not that he was from the 1500s. Though I do see the
title of "chronicler" does seem to lean the statement toward Mr. Benporat
being of the time period.

De

-----Original Message-----
"The chronicler Claudio Benporat, writing about 1500, describes one
of the more elaborate banquets for the pope" on page 103.

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:22:26 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Scappi and Granado
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I'm starting to check recipes that I've translated from Granado to see
if they were taken from Scappi.  First recipe is the one for cider**
sauce.  My translation and redaction is on my website.
http://breadbaker.tripod.com/sauces.html

The recipe (which Scully translates more literally as "To prepare
apple-juice sauce") *is* in Scappi, as is the quince-juice recipe of
which it is a variation.  However, Granado changes both recipes by
specifying that the juice should be cooked with whole spices:
cinnamon, nutmeg, and cloves.

I will have to start adding some of this info to my website.

** A perpetual source of confusion for speakers of the sundered
branches of the English language.  By cider, I mean sweet cider, ie.,
the non-alcoholic, unfiltered juice of crushed apples (no sugar
added).  "Apple juice", in American usage, is filtered cider -- a
clear, golden liquid.  "Hard cider" is the alcoholic stuff.
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
My NEW email is rcarrollmann at gmail.com

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:47:31 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The one held in "private collection" has not circulated at all!
Apparently it is a presentation copy (some illumination has been referred to).
This copy should be noted in the overall discussion but it has not  
been commented on besides the above and is useless as a source.

Someone knows who has it!

It is a shame it can't be studied.

Eduardo

On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:12 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<< Four others according to Ballerini.  There is a manuscript held  
untranslated in a private collection in addition to the translated  
manuscripts in the Vatican Library, Riva Del Garda, and Pierpont  
Morgan Library.

Bear >>>

Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:52:28 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Martino
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Well I started into a list of all the 7 plus (I think I am up to 9  
sources now) that include Martino Corpus recipes and I realized it is  
NOT an e-mail but a short article.

I have manuscript copies of both the Vatican and the Library of  
Congress Martino and have spent several hours with the actual Library  
of Congress copy and they are similar, but not identical. I will  
attempt to out line some of the differences in the above short  
article (looks like it is getting longer) but briefly they mostly  
relate to scribal abbreviations. They are also from completely  
different hands and Vatican is much easier to read.

Eduardo

On Jan 16, 2009, at 8:17 PM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<< Well....the Library of Congress and Vatican manuscripts are said to  
be almost exactly the same.

Bear >>>

Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:37:56 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Semi-OT: Help! Lost text!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Actually the Sion S. 108 manuscript (now that it has been identified) is 
not dated 1250. Scully dates it as second half of the 13th century. It's probably closer to 1300 than 1250.
According to Thomas Gloning who has it posted--

Aebischer: "L'?criture de notre manuscrit s?dunois est tr?s soign?e, 
d'une belle gothique de la seconde moiti? du XIIIe si?cle, ou au plus 
tard des toutes premi?res ann?es du si?cle suivant" (p. 74). Scully 
(1988, 3): "A parchment roll from the second half of the thirteenth 
century"; "Aebischer points out that the early date of the Valais 
manuscript indicates that the Guillaume Tirel [i.e. Taillevent, TG] who 
was studied by Pichon and Vicaire could not have been the author of the 
original version of the /Viandier/". Vgl. Aebischer 1953, 78-80 ("Et 
alors? Une conclusion seule s'impose: c'est que S repr?sente un 
/Viandier/ ant?rieur ? Taillevent"; p. 80).

http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/viandier-sion.htm

Or see  Scully's  The Viandier of Taillevent, page 3.

Johnnae

 Sydney Walker Freedman wrote:
<<< There's an early manuscript from ca. 1250 (I found the text).  It's
refered to as the Sion manuscript.  It's in Scully's book (which I
can't access at the moment), and he has an article about it entitled
"A Parchment Roll from the Second Half of the Thirteenth Century" (I
can't remember what journal).  I was rather surprised to discover this
early version about a year ago.  I can send the new URL for the French
text.

Cecilia >>>

Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:00:18 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bread pudding
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< There's an English translation to each of the original manuscripts.
There should be posts in the Florilegium regarding the Libellus.
I did a number of posts about it right after I joined the list in 2001
because I was one of the only people that owned it at the time. >>>

The version that was published in an Icelandic medical miscellany was 
included in the collection of source material that I sold for many 
years, so quite a lot of people owned that. I think I eventually 
replaced it with Grewe's version.

The best known recipe from it in the SCA is probably "Icelandic 
Chicken." The name is misleading, since it's based on the origion of 
that particular manuscript, not of the recipe. The same source also 
has "The Lord's Salt," which we've used a number of times to preserve 
meat for Pennsic. Both are in the _Miscellany_.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:17:11 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manoscritto Lucano
To: carlton_bach at yahoo.de, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Volker Bach wrote:
<<< Is anyone else here familiar with:
S?thold, Michael: Manoscritto Lucano; Ein unver?ffentlichtes Kochbuch aus S?ditalien vom Beginn des 16. Jahrhunderts, K?lner Romanistische Arbeiten, Neue Folge 70, Geneva 1994 

I just found it at our uni library and it looks interesting, if a bit niche. No translation included, though, and all the commentary is in German. Cheers Giano >>>

Manoscritto Lucano: Ein unver?ffentlichtes Kochbuch aus S?ditalien vom 
Beginn des 16. Jahrhunderts
By Michael S?thold, Michael S?euthold
Published by Droz, 1994
ISBN 2600000372, 9782600000376
331 pages

The best review that I found is from PPC 48 back in 1995.
Alan Davidson noted that it was an interesting culinary manuscript from 
the 1520's. South of Italy. The recipe text which is in Italian runs 40 pages. The rest of the book in German are essays and analysis. Davidson thought it "comprehensive and handsome."

SCAwise--

It appears in Thomas Gloning's lists, including this review/mention:

Lubello, S.: Besprechung zu ?M. S?thold, Manoscritto Lucano, Ein
unver?ffentlichtes Kochbuch aus S?ditalien vom Beginn des 16.
Jahrhunderts?. In: Zeitschrift f?r romanische Philologie 114 (1998)
376-380.

----------
It's been mentioned in the Florilegium from time to time so copies are out there and have been used in various articles and for recipes. Thomas Gloning refers to it several times.

Johnnae (playing librarian again)

Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 17:03:17 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Scappi online
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

David Walddon wrote:
<<< Am I missing something in Scully's translation or did he not translate 
the descriptors on the woodcuts?
Does anyone know of a complete woodcut translation?
Eduardo >>>

The engravings are reproduced as they are in the 1570 edition.
That means, yes, the descriptors are left in Italian.
Beginning on page 629, however, there is Appendix II The Engraved Plates.
That section discusses each plate. He also mentions other reviews of the 
plates on page 629 in a footnotes.

Johnna

Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:32:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] translations of Scappi's 'Opera'
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

To answer the questions
1) It is an almost complete translation, all the recipe books are translated, it is only the menus which are lacking from the Scully translations. 
2) Other translations of Scappi are not available, other than the odd recipes I have translated over the years and put on my website (http://www.geocities.com/helewyse).  If you google Scappi and recipes you do get a few other hits, usually one or two recipes. 

The original Italian is now available free online (Facsimile of 1560 edition I think of the top of my head) in two locations. But other than Scully there is no full translation anywhere.  Go buy the book.

Helewyse

============
The only other translation that I know of is the partial translation by
Mistress Heloise...and she has published her notes on where she differs with
Scully.  I believe Scully's translation is a full one, but Heloise can
answer this far better than I can.

Kiri

<<< *Is* this volume (Scully's translation of Scappis 'Opera') a full
translation?

And would some of the cookbook experts here like to describe how this
volume compares to other translations of Scappi's work? And what are the
other translations which are available? >>>

Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 14:38:01 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] More on Martino
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	Culinary
	List List <mad-cul-gld at antir.sca.org>

Well I finally got around to posting some more information on the
manuscripts in the Martino corpus to my bLog.

There are ten total manuscripts that I am aware of 7 which are relatively
accessible. Of the three that are not accessible one is in a private
collection, one is a library in the UK and cannot be photographed for
microfilm because it is bound to tightly and the third is one it?s way to me
right now in microfilm format.

You can check out more information on all 10 at http://www.vastrepast.net
under the tab at the top marked "Cooking Martino". In case you don't want to
wade through the bLog look on the left side and there is a link to the
manuscript information.

Eduardo 

Date: Fri, 14 Aug 2009 21:05:38 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Napier A Noble Boke off Cookry on Google Books
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Came across the 1882 Napier volume as part of
Google Books tonight. We do not seem to have mentioned it before.

http://books.google.com/books?id=XPspAAAAYAAJ&dq=A+Noble+boke+off+cookry&ei=YAaGSpSgNpW-zAT1s-D_DQ

 A Noble boke off cookry ffor a prynce houssolde or eny other estately 
...  By Robina Napier

It can be downloaded as .pdf or searched online.

The book is based on the Holkham MSS 674. Mrs. Napier didn't do a very 
good job when she copied the book from the original mss back in the 1880's. There are several recipes missing as well as other problems, but it is still nice to have the volume available online to consult as needed.

--------------------
I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it's also available here:
http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/napier.txt

A Noble Boke off Cookry
Title Statement: A Noble boke off cookry ffor a prynce houssolde or eny 
other estately houssolde : reprinted verbatim from a rare ms. in the 
Holkham collection / edited by Mrs. Alexander Napier.
London: Elliot Stock, 1882.
Description: xiii, 136 p. ; 23 cm.
LCCN: 88195361
Transcription by Daniel Myers - September 12, 2007
Completed and corrected on August 18, 2008
(c) 2008 MedievalCookery.com

Doc also has it indexed on his Medieval Cookbook Search at
http://www.medievalcookery.com/cgi/booksearch.pl
---
So for all those that never bought a copy or have used Duke Cariadoc's
copy for these many years, it's readily available now in full size text.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2009 21:54:29 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period substitute for tomatoes?

Judith Epstein wrote:
<<< Anyone got an idea of what to substitute for tomatoes in things like
tabbouleh, Jerusalem salad (entirely made of cucumbers, tomatoes, and
onions, plus oil and spices), or the various biryanis and other Indian
cooking which heavily features tomatoes or tomato paste? Tomatoes make
up such a big part of my modern diet that I'm having trouble figuring
out how to do without them in my medieval life. >>>

I'm not sure why you'd want to do that... Why not just cook period 
recipes? After all, the real question is, what were tomatoes a 
substitute for in medieval cooking?

There are quite a few surviving Arabic language cookbooks (see link 
below to my annotated bibliography). And there are surviving Indian 
recipes in several sources. I know of two off-hand, but there are 
probably more.

Ain-i Akbari
circa 1590
Ain-i Akbari, the third volume of the Akbarnamah, was written by 
Shaikh Abu al-Fazl ibn Mubarak, who was Akbar's minister and friend. 
It was written in Persian. This volume in particular, is an account 
of Mughal India, especially Akbar's court, in the late 16th Century. 
It contains information regarding Akbar's reign. Apparently it isn't 
always completely accurate, but it helps in understanding its time. 
It catalogues facts for which, in modern times, we would turn to 
administration reports, statistical compilations, or gazetteers. It 
is essentially the Administration Report and Statistical Return of 
his government in about 1590 CE.

There are several sections on foodstuffs, including one with recipes.

The translation into English by H. Blochmann 1873, and completed by 
Colonel H. S. Jarrett in 1907, has been made available on-line by The 
Packard Humanities Institute. Here's the index for Volume 1 (of 3) of 
the Ain-i Akbari, which has the section with recipes, as well as 
other sections that have food info:
http://persian.packhum.org/persian/pf?file=00702051&amp;ct=0

His Grace, Duke Cariadoc, has worked out four of the recipes: for 
Bread; for Sag, a spinach dish; Qutab or Sanbusa, like modern meat 
Samosa; and Khichri, sometimes called kedgeree, a dish of rice and 
mung dal. They can be found on:
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Recipes_Done.html

and
The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu
1495 to 1505
A Moghul recipe and medicinal book, written in Urdu. There is only 
one known copy of this book in existence, in the Oriental and India 
Office Collections of the British Library (BL. Persian 149). It's 
illustrated with fifty miniatures, the first few  painted in a 
distinctive Shiraz (Southern Iranian) style by imported Persian 
artists, but increasingly the later illustrations show the indigenous 
styles of book painting from Central and Western India.

Compiled between 1495 and 1505, it contains recipes for food, betel, 
medicinals, aphrodisiacs, perfumes, and more, written for Ghiyath 
Shahi, Sultan of Mandu (now Madhya Pradesh), from 1469-1500, and 
continued by his successor, his son Nasir Shah. It reflects Moghul 
culture that was highly influenced by Persia.

It is available in English as:
The Ni'matnama Manuscript of the Sultans of Mandu: The Sultan's Book 
of Delights
translated by Norah M. Titley
RoutledgeCurzon: Abingdon, Oxon, UK, 2005
ISBN 0-415-35059-X

This scholarly publication includes a complete translation with notes 
and a complete reproduction of the original book in photographic 
plates. Because of the color plates, it costs over $100 US, so i 
recommend ILL'ing it, too.

These descriptions i've excerpted from the page, "Some Extant 
Medieval Near and Middle Eastern Cookbooks", on my website, Dar 
Anahita:
http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/Misc_ME_Food/MECookbooks.html
where i have listed these and more cookbooks, currently available 
versions, and some websites with significant numbers of recipes.

With you interested in Southwest and South Asian cuisines, you may 
find something useful.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2009 09:07:13 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gastronomica Article

Johnnae sent:
<<< Last but not least Mark Morton and Andrew Coppolino's Cooking with
Shakespeare is reviewed. After mentioning that recipes calling for 
swan's blood, a peacock, or a calf's head are "unavailable, difficult 
to obtain, and stomach churning," the review ends with a funny sort of 
endorsement, indicating that the book offers "plenty of recipes" 
(albeit strange ones) for a Shakespearean or culinary history class 
feast. The reviewer warns, however, "if you are looking for something 
quick and tasty when you are running late at work, or something elegant 
and intricate to displease a discriminating modern palate, you'd better
look elsewhere." >>>

I'd almost add, if you want something actually Shakespearean, buy 
something else.  I didn't look closely at the "food" recipes, but I did 
look at the sugar/dessert ones.  The first thing I saw was that the 
authors say that sugar paste is a combination of sugar and almonds. 
What??!??

They also equate "comfits" with "suckets" and have the potential cook 
making sugared orange peel (crisp, no less), and sticking it upright 
into marchpanes.

Finally, they give the period recipe for an ambergris-flavored sweet. 
The modern recipe calls for some minute fraction of an ounce of 
ambergris.  I don't recall the actual amount but it was something like 
.007 oz - something that would be a challenge to measure.  By 
happenstance I looked at the list of words (at the end of the book) for 
which they give explanations.  I noticed ambergris.  They mentioned that 
it came from whales and that it was unavailable today so that if you 
were making a recipe with it, leave it out.  Then, why o why did they 
put it *in* the modern version??  (Yes, I know ambergris can be obtained 
on the internet in other countries.)

I was really disappointed with what they didn't know about in that chapter!

Alys K.
-- 
Elise Fleming
alysk at ix.netcom.com
http://home.netcom.com/~alysk/

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:03:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Two questions

FYI: Stuart Press, I think, did an edition. I got mine through Sykes
Sutlery. Of course I can't lay hands on it because the books are still in disarray-- we only moved 11 months ago.

==========
<<< Oh clever and studied ones....I have two questions ...
(1) In the Florilegium there is a discussion about period shortbread
from John Partidge's The Widowes Treasure, 1585. I do not have the
book (would like to know where to get it). >>>

Numerous editions (1582-1655) of the Widowes Treasure have been
microfilmed and are available in that format.
The author is John Partridge. Note spelling!
-- 
-- Jenne Heise / Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2009 15:32:56 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Two questions

They may done one but it's not listed as being in print now.
They did do
The Good Huswifes Handmaid for the Kitchen A transcription of a  
general period cookery book with brief glossary.

Johnnae

On Sep 22, 2009, at 1:03 PM, jenne at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
<<<  FYI: Stuart Press, I think, did an edition. I got mine through Sykes Sutlery. Of course I can't lay hands on it because the books are still in disarray-- we only moved 11 months ago. >>>

Oh clever and studied ones....I have two questions ...
(1) In the Florilegium there is a discussion about period shortbread
from John Partidge's The Widowes Treasure, 1585. I do not have the
book (would like to know where to get it).

Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2009 20:01:23 -0300
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Drizzle of Honey

I did not like it. A friend pushed me into reading the book and as one 
of you said it looked like a lot of modernized recipes. Also I did not 
get the point of someone be accused of practicing Judism because he made pork and beans for dinner or whatever.

Now my friend, deceased unfortunately, was an expert on the Spanish 
Inquisition. On the other hand from what he related to me was that the 
only dish he made well was chicken curry. As far as I know he did not 
try any of the Drizzle's recipes, nor have I. I much prefer trying the 
classical Spanish recipes from the 13th Century, Sent Sovi and Nola 
because then I know I am doing the real thing.

Suey

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 11:11:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org,	'Culinary List List'
	<mad-cul-gld at antir.sca.org>,	DLCulinaryGuild at yahoogroups.com,
	DMcooks at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Historical food Book review- From the art of the
	Medicis to the tables of today

"From the art of the Medicis to the tables of today" 

I was shopping briefly at Powell's on Sunday and one of my friends handed me this book, we were in a rush and it looked promising so I scurried on book in hand. 

I found the layout to be somewhat visually appealing, but confusing. The pictures are gorgeous but unfortunately not dated. There is an index of artists in the back, but it still doesn't offer even a tentative date of the images, just the lifespan of the artist, and all of those are post 1600. The recipes offered are nominally tied to each of the images offered, but that's not made very clear by layout and no other period references or sources for recipes are given. 

I found this book to be charming, but useless to me as a reference for pre-1600 food research, and would be dubious of it as a source for the later times listed as no information is given as to how they chose to extrapolate the recipes from the images (and I know there are sources available that could easily have been referenced). However, at $10.00 and with recipes for things like Nutaco (a lovely addictive Italian nougat candy), wild rose hip jam, duck breast with peaches, sweet pickled cherries, quince jam, little pastry baskets with crayfish rissoles, Limoncello, and many others, I think it's a charming addition to my general cookbook collection. 

Raffaella 

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:53:10 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Historical food Book review- From the art of
	the	Medicis to the tables of today

http://www.eyeitalia.com/2009/08/19/art-medicis-food-recipes/
 is what it looks like.

It's a gift shop book. One of those you pick up on the way out
of the museum or giftshop.

Very pretty but not essential. And yes I do own it.

Johnnae

On Nov 18, 2009, at 2:11 PM, Raphaella DiContini wrote:
<<< From the art of the Medicis to the tables of today

I was shopping briefly at Powell's on Sunday and one of my friends  
handed me this book, we were in a rush and it looked promising so I  
scurried on book in hand. >>>

Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2009 20:21:12 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] review request

On Dec 1, 2009, at 7:15 PM, Ian Kusz wrote:
<<< Is this book any good?

The Pharaoh's Feast: From Pit-Boiled Roots to *Pickled* Herring,  
Cooking Through the Ages with 100 Simple Recipes by Oswald Rivera
-- 
Ian of Oertha >>>

I own it but truth be told, I have no idea where the copy is.
It's not very good or memorable. It's available for
as little as 8 cents for a used copy on Amazon.
I thought school kids might like it but I'm not sure they would even  
like it.

One of the reviews on Amazon notes he calls for tomato paste--
"He suggests Babylonian tomato paste? Sliced Egyptian tomatoes in a  
salad? (Tomatoes are a New World ingredient). Imaginary "lead" cookware  
is an added distraction! (Did you ever try heating a lead pot?)" and  
"(such as tomatoes in a Biblical lentil stew, or potatoes as the only  
suggested side dish for a roast duck recipe in the ancient Egypt  
chapter)."

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:24:42 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] World's Oldest Recipe Book?

Clearly the Apician cookbook is older than those cited so far.

However, Jean Bottero, a specialist in the ancient Middle East, 
published a translation of what appears to be the worlds oldest 
recipe book... several Mesopotamian cuneiform tablets from 1600 
BCE... a lot older.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2009 08:15:04 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Christmas stuff....

<<< He gave me not only the book
that one of you recommended, "Great Cooks and Their Recipes: From
Taillevent to Escoffier" (wonderful book...have had a great time perusing
it!),... >>>

On Sun, Dec 27, 2009 at 6:29 PM, <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:
I'm curious. The descriptions of the book says it ''represents 14 of the
great cooks of the last six centuries''. Then they mention Taillevent,
Scappi, Martino, Robert May, Escoffier, Mrs. Beeton, and Fannie Farmer. I'm
wondering who the other seven are...
-------------------------------------

Taillevent, Martino, Scappi,  LaVarenne, May, Menon, Glasse, Leonardi,
Simmons, Careme, Soyer, Beeton, Farmer and Escoffier.  I have copies of
works by Taillevent, Martino, Scappi, LaVarenne, May and Careme.  The ones I
had not encountered previously were Menon, Leornardi, Simmons and Soyer.
The thing I liked was that, for the few recipes the author included, the
originals were included as well, though in translation.

Kiri

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2010 07:06:44 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "Tasting the Past"

On Jan 7, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Terri Morgan wrote:
<<< Did we have a discussion about the book, "Tasting the Past, recipes from the
stone age to the Present" by Jacqui Wood on the List? I can't find any
reference to it. I've been enjoying looking over the selection of recipes (and she included a quote by Pliny describing yeast-breads eaten by the natives of Gaul & Spain, so that made me happy). But I'd like to know what other folks more learned than I think of the book.

Hrothny >>>

I have it. It's ok but I was disappointed in the suggested further reading/bibliography which was only very average. Not as interesting as her other book.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 19:18:59 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Italian cookbook that hasn't been
	translated

It's different--- it just bears the Epulario name and appears in  
Epulario lists.

And it's never been translated.

Johnna

On Jan 10, 2010, at 7:12 PM, emilio szabo wrote:
<<< Johnnae mentioned:
There is this one that contains more confectionary recipes.

Epulario e segreti vari :
trattati di cucina toscana nella Firenze seicentesca /
Author(s): Del Turco, Giovanni. ; Evangelista, Anna.
Publication: Sala Bolognese, BO : A. Forni,
Year: 1992
Description: lxvi, 170 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm.
Language: Italian
Standard No: LCCN: 93-174761
This is based on a book written in the first 20 years of the 17th
century, a fair number of recipes including many for preserves and
candied fruit and how to work with sugar.  No translation of this  
work.
Available from A. Forni

Just to make sure that  I did not misunderstand: If I remember  
correctly, this book has nothing to do with the Martino tradition.

It is interesting in its own respect, however.

E. >>>

Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2010 16:56:46 -0800 (PST)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Jean de Bockenheym,	was: Wanted: Italian cookbook
	that hasn't been translated

Johnna mentioned:
<<
You might loan in and try

(...)

Title: La cucina di papa Martino V /
Author(s): Bockenheym, Johannes, fl. 1417-1435. ; Bonardi, Giovanna.
Corp Author(s): Biblioth?que nationale (France). ; Manuscript.; Latin  
7054, fol. 66-74.
Publication: Milano : A. Mondadori,
Year: 1995
Description: xxix, 81 p. ; 18 cm.
Language: Italian; Introd. in Italian; text in Italian and Latin on  
facing pages.
Series: Passepartout ;; 32; Variation: Passepartout (Milan, Italy) ;;  
32.
Standard No: ISBN: 8804404310  

An Italian translation of a Latin cooking manuscript written by the  
personal chef of Pope Martino V.  No translation into English. >>>

This would be a great contribution!

The original Latin text was published in 1988 by Bruno Laurioux.

E.

Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 13:18:33 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Newish Book about Medieval Cooking

On Feb 1, 2010, at 1:03 PM, Susan Lin wrote:
<<< Anyone have an opinion about this book, "Cooking and Dining in Medieval England"?  
 
Shoshanna >>>

Anything by Peter Brears is worth looking at!

My review of this book appeared in TI sometime back

In part, here's what I wrote:

"Cooking and Dining In Medieval England features some 200 plus  
historically accurate and tested recipes and variations. This  
selection covers a full range of medieval English dishes, ranging from 
meats, poultry, fish, pottages, vegetables, sauces, tarts, pies, and  
various sweets. snipped Brears provides a critical study that examines 
and reconstructs "the precise rituals and customs of dinner" in  
medieval England. The author brings an unusual architectural and  
historical perspective to the subject. He writes ?Even in the last  
twenty years the lack of such knowledge has seen leading architectural 
historians publishing completely speculative, unreasoned nonsense?.we  
really should expect that archaeologists should know that a boiler is  
not an oven and that food historians should know that meat is roasted  
in front of a fire, not over it, but these and other very basic  
misunderstandings are still commonplace. We should feel great sympathy 
for those involved in historical re-enactment who wish to give great  
accuracy to their work, but still find it difficult to obtain the  
essential information they require. Although later research will  
surely find faults in this book, it will at least improve the present  
situation, and hopefully fuel further useful debate.? Here we have a  
book written by a scholar that addresses the real questions raised  
when we attempt to recreate medieval English cookery.

            In addition to the recipes and text, the book contains 75  
excellent B/W line illustrations that are fully documented with source 
notes, plus two B/W cartoon panels that explain and illustrate in  
annotated sequences "Archbishop Neville's Enthronement Feast" from  
1466 and "Serving a meal in the Chamber". Thirty pages are devoted to  
the bibliography and separate section of footnotes.

            All in all this is a marvelous and valuable book and sure  
to become a necessary and much loved reference volume in the libraries 
and kitchens of the Society's Cooks."

It also won the most prestigious award given for cookery books in the  
UK!

It's worth adding to your shelf.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2010 16:06:31 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Livre fort excellent de cuisine 1555

Found out this today---

Ken Albala is co-authoring the
Livre fort excellent de cuisine: A Critical Edition and Translation
With Tim Tomasik
(Prospect Books)

So they have a publisher!

Johnnae

On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:56 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
This is a new grant so I would think that he'll be working on it
in 2010. Maybe a sabbatical or a summer? That's how these things  
usually work.
(It would interesting to know if he has a contract and due date.)

The papers/sessions look very interesting.

Johnnae

On Feb 15, 2010, at 8:23 PM, David Walddon wrote:
< Tim Tomasik, Ken Albala and myself gave a group of related papers at the RSA
conference in San Francisco a few years ago. We have been asked to get them
together for publication but we have all been too busy. 

Johnnae,
Do you know if the translation is published yet?
If not I will e-mail Tim and find out when it is available.

David/Eduardo >

<the end>