fd-n-Shkspear-msg - 11/4/14

Mentions of food in Shakespeare's works.

NOTE: See also the files: fd-in-Chaucer-msg, books-food-msg, online-ckbks-msg, rec-in-verse-msg, rec-tim-pray-msg, fd-paintings-msg, Bread-Hist-art.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2006 12:25:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Vincent <tom.vincent at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Funeral foods ...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

From Romeo & Juliet (Act 4, Scene 4):

LADY CAPULET:   Hold, take these keys, and fetch more spices, Nurse.

NURSE:  They call for dates and quinces in the pastry.

               Enter CAPULET
             
CAPULET:       Come, stir, stir, stir! The second  
cock hath crowed.  The curfew bell hath rung. 'Tis three  
o'clock.  Look to the baked meats, good Angelica.         Spare  
not for the cost.

So maybe dates and quinces and pastry and baked meats go together?

   http://shakespeare.about.com/library/blglossB.htm considers 'baked  
meats' to mean 'meat-pies, pastry'.

"Judith L. Smith Adams" <judifer50 at yahoo.com> wrote:
======
Sandra Kisner wrote: > >Well, the first thing that comes to mind is  
Hamlet's little joke
>> about Gertrude and Claudius' wedding being so soon after the death of
>> Hamlet the Elder that they could recycle the leftover pies from the
>> funeral for the wedding feast...
>>
>> Adamantius

Just for clarification, the quote actually goes:
"Thrift, thrift, Horatio! the funeral baked meats
Did coldly furnish forth the marriage tables."

I wasn't under the impression that specifically meant pies.

Sandra
So, scholars and cooks, what do we know about what Shakespeare meant  
- or didn't - by "baked meats"??

Judith
======

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 07:24:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 6.7.2008:
<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes 
twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more
than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone). 

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 04:08:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Volker Bach" <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am So, 
6.7.2008:
<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes
twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more
than a passing acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. A 
problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various languages are 
used to describe citrus fruit. The common 'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., 
probably actually describes the lemon (modern German Zitrone) rather than 
the lime (modern German Limone).
--------

I've found several references to lime in Shakespeare.  In Richard II, the 
reference appears to be to limestone.  In Henry IV, it's a reference to the 
practice of adding alkaline earth to fortified wine with a similar reference 
in The Merry Wives of Windsor.  Midsummer Night's Dream appears to be a 
reference to either limestone or cement.  In Henry VI are references to 
using bird lime to trap birds and meaning "to cement".  I haven't found 
anything to suggest that Shakespeare was referring to the fruit of C. 
medica, in fact all such references in English appear to begin in the 
mid-17th Century.

Also, lime or lime tree can be a reference to a linden tree, although the 
reference I have found are 17th Century.

I would like to know where the references I haven't found appear in 
Shakespeare, so that I might review the context.

Bear 

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 10:08:19 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have a book that lists all the food references in the Bard's plays.  It is 
titled "Butter on the Bard."  That is where I found the number of references 
to oranges, lemons and limes.  I will need to look for it.

Daniel 

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 09:51:33 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Food in Shakespeare
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's an interesting site on food references in Shakespeare's works: 
http://www.soupsong.com/ibard.html .

On the question of citrus in the Bard's plays, it shows two references to 
oranges in Much Ado About Nothing and a reference to lemons in Love's Labor 
Lost, but nothing about limes.

Bear 

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:37:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] (No) Limes in Shakespeare
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<<< Here's an interesting site on food references in Shakespeare's works: 
http://www.soupsong.com/ibard.html .

On the question of citrus in the Bard's plays, it shows two references to 
oranges in Much Ado About Nothing and a reference to lemons in Love's Labor 
Lost, but nothing about limes.

Bear >>>

Also, Alexander Schmidt, in his two-volume Shakespeare-Lexicon does not 
mention the fruit in the entry "lime": "Lime, subst. 1) a viscous substance laid on twigs to catch birds, bird-lime, ... 2) the matter of which mortar is made ..." (volume I, page 655).

E.

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 14:50:39 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: carlton_bach at yahoo.de, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am 
So, 6.7.2008:
<<< Shakespeare mentions in his plays oranges twice, lemons once and limes
 twelve times. In the case of limes this would suggest more than a passing
 acquaintance with the fruit. >>>

Which opens the question which fruit Shakespeare was talking about. 
A problem in the German corpus is that loan words from various 
languages are used to describe citrus fruit. The common 
'Limon(i)e/Limun(i)e', e.g., probably actually describes the lemon 
(modern German Zitrone) rather than the lime (modern German Limone).
-----------

Other possible sources of confusion, depending on just what 
Shakespeare says, are that "lime" is also used for the linden or 
basswood tree and for Calcium Hydroxide.

I did a Google search of the site http://shakespeare.mit.edu/, which 
has all of Shakespeare on it, for "lime." None of the 13 hits appears 
to refer to the fruit. Most of them are references to the chemical, 
used either for catching birds ("Like lime-twigs set to catch my 
winged soul") or in mortar ("Within the limits of yon lime and stone:").
-- 
David Friedman
www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 22:56:05 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Let me see thee, froth and lime.  Host, The Merry Wives of Windsor, 1,3

While the title is "Butter in the Bard",  after the pervious discussion I 
cannot speak for the author's ability to tell lime quick or otherwise from 
the citrus fruit.

Daniel 

Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2008 23:08:04 -0500
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lemons? Limes? Confusion?
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Biron:    A lemon.
Longaville:    Stuck with cloves.

Loves Labour's Lost, 5,2

Daniel

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2009 18:01:42 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Farmer's feasts question

Besides in Rumpolt, does anyone know of any other late-period references 
to what a feast menu for the lower classes should be like? I am 
researching an A&S entry for 12th Night and my research library is 
woefully inadequate for Tudor/Elizabethan era anything, let alone feast 
menus.

The goal is to base the entry off of "a Shakespeare quote". So I am going 
with a quote from the play "A Winter's Tale" in which one of the 
characters is reciting his shopping list for the sheepshearing feast they 
are going to have.

"I cannot do't without counters. Let me see; what am
I to buy for our sheep-shearing feast? Three pound
of sugar, five pound of currants, rice,--what will
this sister of mine do with rice? But my father
hath made her mistress of the feast, and she lays it
on. She hath made me four and twenty nose-gays for
the shearers, three-man-song-men all, and very good
ones; but they are most of them means and bases; but
one puritan amongst them, and he sings psalms to
horn-pipes. I must have saffron to colour the warden
pies; mace; dates?--none, that's out of my note;
nutmegs, seven; a race or two of ginger, but that I
may beg; four pound of prunes, and as many of
raisins o' the sun."

Specifically I am looking for info on what the upper classes thought would 
be appropriate for a farmer's feast. I have a reference that says that a 
roast joint of mutton is expected at a shearer's dinner, and later there's 
a discussion of what grains to make the pie crusts and puddings out of, 
but that's all I have.

Margaret FitzWilliam

<the end>