breadcrumbs-msg - 8/13/10

Obtaining bread crumbs for use in recipes.

NOTE: See also the files: bread-msg, thickening-msg, flour-msg, sauces-msg, breadmaking-msg, boulting-msg, drying-foods-msg.

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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Tue, 06 Jun 2000 16:48:55 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Bread Crumb Thickening

"Hupman, Laurie" wrote: 
> I recently tried the chicken and pear stew from "Ein Buch von Guter Spise,"
> which calls for bread crumbs as a thickener.  On the first day, the broth
> was thick, but still soupy.  After a day or two, it was quite thick, almost
> the consistency of gravy.  Does it always take more than a day for the
> breadcrumbs to break down and be absorbed into the liquid?  Should I be
> using drier or moister breadcrumbs to cause the reaction to happen faster?
> Should I use more and chance the leftovers having the consistency of
> concrete?

Probably not. I don't have a lot of experience with storing leftover
bread-thickened sauces, but I get the feeling that while stale bread is
what is often intended in a lot of period recipes, completely dry bread,
akin to commercial croutons or zweibeck crumbs, are not generally what
is intended, unless specifically mentioned. Some recipes do tell you to
toast the bread on the gridiron before using it in a dark-colored sauce,
and many don't, but a large number of them seem to call for the bread to
be steeped for an unspecified length of time in vinegar, wine, water, or broth.

Having made some modern bread-thickened sauces such as rouille and
skordalia (not to mention real gazpacho), I can state that it does take
a while for breadcrumbs to reach their full thickening power. You can
guess and hope for the best, using less than immediately seems
necessary, but I've had fair success with soaking the bread (actual
bread, not crumbs) in just enough liquid to cover in a container barely
big enough to hold it and the liquid. Yes, the bread will swell, but
when it's pushed down into the liquid it generally doesn't get much
bigger than its original volume plus that of the liquid, since air
bubbles are less of an issue in soaked bread. When you're ready to
thicken your sauce, puree the bread (which can be toasted for browning
before soaking) or push it through a strainer or sieve, then add and
beat it into your boiling liquid.

Done this way, you don't get a lot of change from the product when
freshly cooked and the next day, as far as I can tell, and you get a
pretty speedy thickening, requiring less guesswork.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:02:52 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bread Crumb Thickening

A standard 1 pound loaf of wheat bread will last about four days unwrapped
and uncut, two days if cut.  After that, they make excellent bread crumbs,
which seem to thicken better than the commercial breadcrumbs.  

After I serve a homemade bread at a dinner party, I often make breadcrumbs
from the leftover slices.  By the following day, they are dry enough to
grind into fine breadcrumbs.

Bear


Date: Thu, 22 Sep 2005 22:37:31 -0700
From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] in the thick of it...
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Lonnie D. Harvel wrote:
>> First, would the broth from stewed meat be thickened in the 9th
>> century, Danelaw area.
> At a guess, crumbs.
>
>> Second, what is the technique for thickening with bread or bread crumbs.
> Grind bread. Put crumbs in liquid to be thickened.  Allow it to cook a
> little longer. If it still doesn't seem thick enough, repeat.

Make sure you give enough time for the starch to dissolve and get good and
mixed in.  Too little and it is more grainy than you'd like.  This is a
really easy test to work out to see how it behaves.  I did a Neapolitan dish
that was thickened with egg yolks, bread crumbs AND liver.  It was a
startling surprise to see the spaetzel appear in my Italian braised lamb :o)
(I mixed egg and crumbs together before adding to liquid . . . oops.)

Bread is a forgiving master to thicken with, really, just watch it and learn
how much to use, based on moisture in your crumbs, type of grain and quality
(density) of your original crumb.

niccolo difrancesco


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 08:55:13 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

edoard at medievalcookery.com wrote:
<<< This may be a silly question, but why is it usually assumed that the
grated bread in the period sources equates to dried breadcrumbs?  Did
one or more of the sources specify dried bread? >>>

Ever tried to grate a fresh loaf?
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 14:58:51 -0600
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

That's why we have food processors!!!!!  don't yell at me - I know - it's
not a period tool but I just had to throw it in.

But-it's a reasonable questions - they could have taken day old (not yet
dry) bread and broken it or rubbed it into "crumbs".

Shoshanna

<<< This may be a silly question, but why is it usually assumed that the
grated bread in the period sources equates to dried breadcrumbs?  Did
one or more of the sources specify dried bread? >>>

<< Ever tried to grate a fresh loaf? >>


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 16:59:22 -0400
From: "Mairi Ceilidh" <jjterlouw at earthlink.net>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

Good question.  I've made period gingerbread with fresh breadcrumbs and with
dried ones.  I did not like the dried ones at all.  They never softened up
and smoothed out enough; not a good texture.  Putting a fresh loaf of
"light" bread (as my grandmother used to say) through the food processor
produced a much better product for my time and money.

Mairi Ceilidh


Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2009 09:14:04 +1200
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

Susan Lin wrote:
<<< That's why we have food processors!!!!!  don't yell at me - I know - it's
not a period tool but I just had to throw it in. >>>

Oh, fair enough-- that's how I make crumbs, too.  The food processor is 
also great for toast crumbs, buttered crumbs, cookie crumbs, etc.

<<< But-it's a reasonable questions - they could have taken day old (not yet
dry) bread and broken it or rubbed it into "crumbs". >>>

Yes, they could have, but I think the specific instruction to *grate* is 
highly suggestive of *dry* bread.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:22:10 -0400
From: chawkswrth at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

Here is how I do breadcrumbs-

I take white bread just a little past its date and set it out on the countertop. When it has dried a little, I start grating it in a large fine mesh wire sieve. I fold it into two or three folds and start rubbing. 

Tedious, and it does take some serious time, but it does give me a fresh, consistent crumb. 

I don't have a food processor. I'm not sure I even want one. It just takes up so much counter space/cabinet room that is better suited to equipment I may use more then once a blue moon. 

I have made gingerbrede and it is best when it is a little bit chewy, but not stick-to-your-teeth chewy. 

Helen


Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2009 17:28:31 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

On Sep 9, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Antonia Calvo wrote:
<<< But-it's a reasonable questions - they could have taken day old  
(not yet dry) bread and broken it or rubbed it into "crumbs". >>>

Yes, they could have, but I think the specific instruction to  
*grate* is highly suggestive of *dry* bread.
===============

Another consideration, FWIW, is that a light but swift hand using a  
grater with simple puckered holes punched in it, as opposed to the  
more sophisticated ones where the holes are sort of angled blades all  
pointing in the same direction, can be surprisingly effective in  
producing crumbs from any reasonably firm bread.

Sure, these are people who ate, used and baked a lot of bread and  
didn't have a lot of ways to keep it really fresh, and stale bread  
surely suggests itself.

But it's not inconceivable that semi-fresh bread was used for certain  
applications.

Another variable we haven't really talked about (AFAIK) is gluten  
content. We may be talking about lots of pre-gelatinized starch in  
medieval bread, fresh or dry, compared to many of the crunch- 
emphasizing dry bread crumb products on the market. A lot of them are  
not even actual bread before grinding, except in the broad sense that  
they're made from flour and baked...

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 16:35:13 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Recipe for period gingerbrede

<<< This may be a silly question, but why is it usually assumed that the
grated bread in the period sources equates to dried breadcrumbs?  Did
one or more of the sources specify dried bread?

- Doc >>>

The recipe I have to hand (from Markham) says, "take fine crums of white 
bread grated."  Grating fresh bread is a real pain.  It is easier to tear it 
apart into fine pieces with the fingers.  I would expect bread to be grated 
to be 3 or more days old (which suggests that ginerbread may have been a 
good way to use staling manchet).  The actual size of grated crumbs depends 
on the hole size of the grater.  While it is not mentioned, sieving the 
bread crumbs will separate coarse and fine crumbs.

Rather than being the total dry bread crumbs we purchase at the store (or 
produce in the food processor to live in a container on the shelf), it is 
very possible that the bread for gingerbread still had some moisture making 
it softer than what we tend to use.  I would also point out that there is no 
mention of removing the crust, although that would likely make a difference 
in texture of the gingerbread.  As a technical term for the interior of a 
loaf of bread, "crumb" dates to before 1430, meaning this could be an 
instruction to use the interior of the loaf, although I think the usage is 
for "bread crumbs" rather than "crumb of bread."

Bear


Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009 15:03:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] breadcrumbs & grain disheswas:gingerbread

I personally always try to make my breadcrumbs for period recipes (and sometimes for any modern ones depending on purpose), as I've found the storebought ones in a tin to leave a more gritty mouthfeel not to mention being more costly. If I'm just making dinner for 1-10 I'll just grate it by hand, if I'm doing the sauces for a feast and don't have a separate sauce person I'll use a food processor.

There are several sauce and broth recipes that call for breadcrumbs or specifically call for you to grate bread into them. 

Quick examples: 
III. "Agliata", roasted garlic sauce. 
Agliata to serve with every meat.  Take a bulb of garlic and roast it under the coals (substitute an oven in the current middle ages).  Grind the roasted garlic and mix with ground raw garlic, bread crumbs and sweet spices.  Mix with broth, put into a pan and let it boil a little before serving warm. 

XIII Little broth for fish 
Take the fish and boil it, then take parsley and walnuts and the crumb of bread and grind these all together, and take sweet and strong spices and let it boil altogether (in the fish broth) and put it over the fish and it is good, perfect etc. 

One of the first ones I did as a sauce for wild boar at Boar's Hunt, there are three variations, but I used the first and it specifically tells you to take bread with the crusts cut off, toast them until dark/black and grate it into crumbs: 
XIV Ciuiro* (civet) or sauce black to ash gray for boar 
If you want to make a black sauce, take meat that is well roasted/cooked and beat it to a paste in a mortar, and take the middle (no crusts) of bread and toast until it is black.  Soak this toasted bread in vinegar, break it up and sieve it well and mix it with the shredded meat.  Add long pepper, grains of paradise and ginger and grind these three things to a smooth paste.  Put the above meat paste a sauce made with vinegar and with lean broth of the meat, and boil this stew/sauce in a pan.   This sauce should be black and strong with spices and sharp with vinegar. 

Oh, and it also reminded me of this Italian hot grain + fat dish: 
XXIV Maize dish (Frumenty) good and very useful. 
If you want to make frumenty, take the wheat berries, and grind/beat it well until the husk lifts, then wash it well.  Put it to boil in water, but don?t boil it too much, then pour away the water.  Then add inside the fat of whichever animal you wish, and you want to make sure that you don?t add too much.  Add sweet and strong spices, and saffron, and if you don?t have wheat then you can take rice, and it will be good. 

With rice being offered as an alternate, I've made this before for gluten intolerant folks. 

From Helewye's translation of Libro Cuchina: 
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/libro.html#III

Raffaella


Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 12:20:50 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bread crumbs for feasts

Well, I'm not much of a bread eater. But I used to keep a bag in the 
freezer, and I'd throw in heels of loaves and slices that were 
getting dry-ish. There's be all sorts of bread from unbleached white 
to whole grain to black "Russian" rye. Then when it was time to stuff 
a bird I'd have interesting stuffing.

For smaller medieval dishes, I buy a loaf of ok, but not the best 
artisanal. Never sandwich bread. I'll dry it in the oven, then break 
it up and put it in the food processor, and pick out the larger lumps.

For a feast, it really depends on how much prep I'm doing ahead of 
time and what quantity of bread crumbs I need.

Sometimes I make my own. Most often I buy "sweet" sourdough by 
Columbo (a local San Francisco large commercial bakery). It's OK, but 
not really good, and it's fine for crumbs. For personal use I only 
buy artisanal loaves from real bakeries, none of those fake 
"artisanal" loaves made in supermarkets.

Sometimes I buy crumbs. Definitely avoid the pre-seasoned kind :-0

The type of bread one uses will make a different in the flavor.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita


Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 08:51:21 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <ladyadele at paradise.net.nz>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bread crumbs for feasts

Raphaella DiContini wrote:
<<< I've mostly used bread crumbs in sauces like agalita, ciuiro/civet,  perfect strong sauce, etc. and for those I usually get plain white bread unless the recipe specifies otherwise. I remove the crusts (not everyone does this step, and it is not always specifically mentioned) and then run through my food processor until it's finely ground. I have on occasion grated it by hand. I don't always stale or toast the bread either, it depends on the recipe I'm working with and what I can glean from that and experimentation. >>>

I remove crusts if I'm making something that's supposed to be white, but otherwise, I just leave them on.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo


Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 13:29:33 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] batter breads

On Apr 4, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<< French bakeries bake baguettes three or four times a day just so they will be fresh.  While the French bakery here in Norman doesn't bake them quite that often, they do produce them daily.  Rather than weapon, think breadcrumbs.  Lots of beautiful bread crumbs to pass through a sieve and get coarse and fine breadcrumbs suitable for ones culinary needs. >>>

And I can't stress enough the difference the right breadcrumbs can make, depending on their intended use. High-gluten crumbs from French or Italian bread are much better for bulking, lightening, enriching and smoothing the texture of things like meat balls or loaves, while lower-gluten, stodgier breads (such as your basic white Pullman loaf) may be better for thickening sauces.

Adamantius


Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 18:03:33 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] elderberries

<<< Anna Wecker describes breadcrumbs both dried out or toasted for their
color.  I just need to read more of this author to understand what he
means by the word.  My inclination would be that it is white so not to
interfere with the color of the mush.  The leckuchen from the 16th century
recipes I have tried are definitely dark brown, and the spices too, so
perhaps the color of the white breadcrumbs is immaterial to the final
prep.

I've always wondered how thick fruit juices would get with the breadcrumb
addition and strained through a cloth.  I think I'll try it with some
cherries and the similar cherry mush recipe and see what happens :)

Katherine >>>

Having added breadcrumbs and spices to strawberry mush while I cooked it (a 
Rumpolt recipe, IIRC) I can say it will turn into a thick sauce or a 
semi-solid pudding.  To make a really smooth dish, the bread crumbs need to 
be crushed very fine and the mass needs to be pushed through a fine sieve. 
I haven't tried cooking it a little after the sieving, but it might produce 
a stiffer pudding.

Bear

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	breadcrumbs-msg	8 of 8