fd-Italy-msg – 12/24/18

Medieval Italian food. Recipe books. Sources.

NOTE: See also the files: Italy-msg, pasta-msg, cookbooks-msg, ham-msg, fd-paintings-msg, tomato-hist-art, Roman-Cuisine-art, Romn-Sod-Diet-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 1997 17:13:37 GMT
Subject: Re: SC - Italian Renaissance----any translations out there?

On Fri, 6 Jun 1997 07:32, maddie teller-kook <meadhbh at io.com> wrote:

>Does anyone know of ANY translated italian renaissance cookbooks?  I
>have a few italian cookbooks with 'period' style recipes in them but no
>way to verify ingredients. One of the cookbooks I have is "The Heritage
>of Italian Cooking" by Lorenza di Medici.  The photographs in the book
>are gorgeous. The recipes.well...more than half do not even have the
>english translation of the original recipe. 

Castelvetro, Giacomo "The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy, an
Offering to Lucy, Countess of Bedford", 1614. Translated with an
Introduction by Gillian Riley, Foreword by Jane Grigson. Viking Press,
published by the Penguin Group. 27 Wrights Lane, London W8 5TZ,
England. First edition, 1989. ISBN 0-670-82724X.
     (Yes, it has more than just a discussion of fruits and veggies in
Italy, it also has a few recipes as well.)

Platina, Bartolomeo "De honesta voluptate". (Original published by L.
de Aguila, Venice in 1475) Translated by Elizabeth Buermann Andrews.
Published by Mallinckrodt Chemical Works in the Mallinckrodt
collection of food classics v. 5, 1967. English translation and
original Latin on opposite pages. LC Call No.: TX711 .P5 1967. Dewey
No.: 641.5945 I do not have the ISBN, but this book is available in
the Library of Congress listings, so you may be able to get it through
Inter-Library Loan.

Joseph Dommers Vehling also wrote a book entitled "Platina and the
rebirth of man", W. M. Hill, Chicago, 1941. LC Call No.: TX713.P6 V4,
Dewey No.: 641.5. The description in the LOC catalog is "Included in a
series of lectures by the author delivered at Cornell University,
Ithaca, New York, during the years 1933 to 1938" and MAY contain some
translations of Platina's work.

Duke Cariadoc's Miscelleny also contains translations of several of
Platina's recipes which, as you can tell from the sources above, were
printed in 1475.

There are a few other Italian works that I would LOVE to get and
perhaps translate someday. Bartolomeo Scappi's "Opera" (or Works)
written in 1596, Domenico Romoli's "La singolare dottrina di M.
Domenico Romoli sopranominato Panunto", and Cristoforo di Messisbugo's
"Banchetti compositioni di vivande, et apparecchio generale di
Christoforo di Messisbugo" among others.

Someone also mentioned "The Art of Renaissance Cooking", also by, I
believe, Gillian Riley. (I don't have to book with me to give the
specifics). While it does not have direct translations, it does give
some sourcing of when, where and who created the recipes that her
redactions are created from. Some very nice recipes, but without
knowing enough italian to make use of it, her biography leaves me in
the same boat as you, still searching for more. If you come up with
any more translated works PLEASE share! (Beg, plead, grovel, etc...)

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org

From: "Nick Sasso (fra niccolo)" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 13:38:45 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - italian food

Aoibheall (Lea D Wittie) wrote:

> does anyone know a good source of period italian recipies online?
> i'm doing a feast for an italian wedding next spring amd am trying to
> remedy my complete lack of knowledge concerning period italian.
> -Aibell inghean Dairenn

  The thing to remember is that there has never, really, been an
"Itlaian" cuisine.  The cooking and culture has been regional (like
'Chinese' cooking) since way before the Papal states of around 13th
century.  The country we now know as Italy used to be a region of
separate sovreignties, dutchies, city-states that were most often at war
with some other entity or other (kinda like today's Italy).  Even today,
the food eaten and produced in neighboring regions is quite variant from
even neighboring regions.  What region (Romagna, Tuscany, Umbria).  Even
great cities of the middle ages such as Venice, Florence, Rome had
different trade routes attendant to them and their food.  Try searching
under regional cultures/cuisisnes.
- --
In Humble Service to God and Crown;

fra nicol¢ difrancesco
(mka nick sasso)
AOA?,CMC

Barony of the South Downs
Knaves of Grain
Barrister's House
Heavy Archer

From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 21:34:50 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Roman cookbook

>linneah at erols.com wrote:
>> Greetings.  I just heard something about a cookbook published in 1475 by a
>> Roman librarian named "Sacci" (sp?).  Does anyone have information on it?
>>
>> Linneah
>
>That wouldn't be Bartolomeo Scappi, would it?
>
>If so, he is the author of "De Honestae Voluptuae", under the name
>Platina.
>
>Adamantius

Also:

Il Cuoco Segreto di Papa Pio V (The Private Chef of Pope Pius V), by
Bartolomeo Scappi, Venice, 1570.  This is chock full of marvelous
illustrations, including one of an Italian field kitchen.  I'd dearly love
to get my hands on a copy of this book if anyone has one...

Sincgiefu
a.k.a. Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Thu, 07 Aug 1997 17:43:47 GMT
From: zarlor at acm.org (Lenny Zimmermann)
Subject: SC - Ren. Italian Sources

I promised a while back to list some of the bibliography from Gillian
Riley's "Painters & Food: Renaissance Recipes". It's not that easy to
figure out which source she is using where and which ones are strictly
for the artwork and have no actual recipes. I'll try to extract what I
can from it.

Some sources we know of as the main Italian Ren. source books. These
are:

Platina, Bartolomeo. "De honesta voluptate"; Venice, L. De Aguila,
1475.
Messisbugo, Christoforo. "Libro Novo"; Venice, 1557.
Scappi, Bartolomeo. "Opera"; Milano, 1570. 
Castelvetro, Giacomo. "The Fruits, Herbs and Vegetables of Italy";
London, 1614.

In addition, though it is not in her bibliography, she lists the diary
of Maria Vitorria della Verda (1555-1622), a nun in Perugia, as a
source for stories on everyday life as well as a few recipes. 

Felici, Costanzo. "Del'Insalata e Piante che in Qualunque Modo Vengono
per Cibo Del'homo" (According to Riley, this gentleman wrote a
collection of letters evolved into a treatise on salads and the fruits
and vegetables of Italy. A precursor to Castelvetro, perhaps? She
doesn't list publication dates but he is listed as living from
1525-1585.)

Now if anyone finds any translations of the above, please let me know.
I have Castelvetro and Platina, but I would love to have any
translations of the rest of these if anyone comes across them.
Otherwise I'll do what I can in getting Italian/Latin pieces and
translating as best as I may with an English/Italian and a Latin
dictionary. 

Oh, and Apicius is a good source even for Italian Ren. cooking. The
reason is that even Platina refers to him quite often, so it is more
than plausible that you might find a kitchen or party where a feast is
created around ancient roman foods. Especially when you consider the
typical Italian (especially humanist) interest in the ancients and
their culture. 

Honos Servio,
Lionardo Acquistapace, Barony of Bjornsborg, Ansteorra
(mka Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio, TX)
zarlor at acm.org

Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 18:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Carol at Small Churl Books <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Italian Cookery

>A new Gentle in our shire, who spent 18 months in Italy, would like 
>to do a period Italian feast next spring.  I would greatly appreciate 
>any help you could give me on where to find recipes, etc.

_The Original Mediterranean Cuisine: medieval recipes for today_
 author: Barbara Santich
pub. by: Chicago Review Press
1-55652-272-x

It has 70 recipes, with (1) the originals (2) a translation and (3) the
modern version.  
You can't get much more on-target than this.  It is a trade paperback.

Lady Carllein

Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:09:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: Nancee Beattie <nbeattie at mail.inlink.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Italian Cookery

An excellent source for period Italian food is Platina's On Honest
Indulgence (De Honesta Voluptate). Falconwood press has published a
translated version. Alban St. Alban used to carry it, and probably still does. 

Meredydd

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:07:24 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Cookery Myths and a "New" Book (Longish)

>Greetings!  I've been meaning to write about some of the "new" books I
>found when a recent post "tickled" my memory from one of them.  Someone
>mentioned that Catherine de Medici brought Italian cooks to France,
>which is apparantly an "old cooks' legend" and not accurate.  Elizabeth
>David, one of the cooking "gods" has a new version of her _Italian
>Food_ which I was going to tell you all about.  (Actually, her estate
>does.  She died a few years ago.) (ISBN 0-7651-9651-4)  The book
>currently appears to be on "mark down" at Borders Bookstores for $5.99!
> The book is profusely illustrated, mostly with reproductions of
>_period_ art which depict various aspects of cookery.  For the pictures
>and documentation alone, it's worth the price.
<deleted>
>
>Alys Katharine

I'll stop by Borders on my way home.

There is a book of recipes associated with Catherine de Medici.  It was
published in 1555 by Girolamo Rusceli, an Italian who was Catherine's
astrologer.
The book is The Secrets of the Reverand Master Alixis of Piedmont and it
has been described to me as a collection of remedies with the odd
cooking recipe thrown in.

Bear

Date: 7 MAY 98 15:09:15 AST
From: RMcGrath at dca.gov.au
Subject: SC - Italian Cooking

http://www.italcuisine.it/index.htm
discusses briefly the history of Italian cooking ... but a caveat - the
English translation isn't up yet!

Ciao, ho molto da fare qui.  Non puoi scrivere troppo!

Rakhel

Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:20:35 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: [Sca-cooks]Italian Cookery  was New member intro.

There are two bibliographic sources that you should
start with in Italian Cookery.

Westbury, Lord [David Alan]. Handlist of Italian Cookery Books.
Florence [Firenze]:, Olschki, 1963.

Cagle, William R. A Matter of Taste. A Bibliographical
Catalogue of International Books on Food and Drink.
Revised edition. New Castle, Delaware: Oak Knoll Press,
1999.
Do not be too quick to dismiss any Italian printed book.
Just because an edition might be published in Rome does
not mean that an earlier or later edition might not have
been the product of Venice or Bologna or Turin or Naples
or Ferrara. There are a number that cannot be identified
as to place. We have volumes that are described as "new
edition, Ferrara, 1601. Originally published [Florence?
1550?]. Moreover, the originals might have been in Latin
and then translated into Italian for subsequent publication
or even vice versa. You might want to also consult:
Claudio Benorat's Storia della Gastronomia Italiana. Milan:
Ugo Mursia, 1990. It has 9 pages of bibliography.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [SCA-cooks] Italian Renn. Food
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:44:35 -0500

>One point, Platina is based very heavily on MM, who is a Neapolitan (sp)
>isn't he? Southern Italian rather than Northern? (my memory is totally shot
>today so I could be totally off base here...) If so, is there any
>distinctive difference between the two regional cuisines?

Master Martino Rossini (IIRC) is from Como, which would make him Northern
Italian.

Neopolitan cooking does differ from that of Northern Italy, being influenced
by Moorish, Norman and Spanish cookery.

>There are recipes from "Libro di cucina del secolo XI" a Venetian cookbook,
>in "The Medieval Kitchen", both in original, translation and redaction form.
>
>Al Servizio Vostro, e del Sogno
>Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia

Again IIRC, this is Scappi's Opera.

Bear

From: Devra at aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:32:32 EDT
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks - Florentine Food

Did anyone mention Scully's NEAPOLITAN FOOD(Cuisine ...) [I'm at work and
don't have the exact title).  Available from Univ MI, hardcover, $47.50.

Devra the Baker

Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 10:51:10 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 15th C. Florence was Suggestions anyone?

Take a look at: Carole Lambert's Du Manuscrit a la Table.
which was published in Montreal in 1992. It has the following
essay in it:
Grieco, Allen J. "From the Cookbook to the Table:
A Florentine Table and Italian Recipes of the Fourteenth
and Fifteenth Centuries." pages 29-38. It has a number of
footnotes that may prove helpful.

Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 22:34:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Italian cooking sources

On 9 Jan 2002, at 17:57, Mark.S Harris wrote:
> > Grieco, A.J.: From the cookbook to the table. A Florentine table and
> > Italian recipes of the fourteenth and fifteenth centuries. In:
> > Lambert, C. (Dir.): Du manuscrit =E0 la table. Montr=E9al/ Paris 1992,
> > 29-38.
>
> Of course, even though these titles are in English that doesn't
> mean the contents are. But the other titles in the bibliography
> are not in English, so maybe these are.

I have the book in hand.  The article is in English, but -- alas! -- it
does not contain any recipes.  It is a discussion of the relationship
between dishes listed on actual historic menus and recipes found
in cookbooks of the same period.  Some recipe names are
mentioned, but it is not a useful source for someone planning a
feast.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] On the subject of Italian food.  
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Just wanted to let people know that I have been busy
making available the Italian translations I have been
doing on or off for the last year.  These are all
linked from my webpage :
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/

There is: 
Libro di cucina translation - 
Updated libro translation - 
An Italian Feast   -  
On the nature of cheese - 
Stuffed pasta recipes - 
Hare with papardelle - 
Pesto like recipes - 
Strawberry pie - 
Rice dish -  
Recipes for Roman macaroni, roast lamb and fruit soup
-Five stuffing recipes from 16th century texts - 
Sambugado - 
Little morsels or Biscotti from 16th century Italy - 
Menus featuring biscotti - 
Other biscotti recipes - 

As I am almost continually updating and adding new
pages I figured it was easier to send people to the
home page rather than list 12 web addresses.  

Helewyse (trying to get stuff organized at last). 

Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2004 08:44:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Mediterranean food
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

>> Clifford Wright ties part of this together in his book-- A 
>> Mediterranean Feast.

> Johnnae llyn Lewis

Clifford's Wright's Website also has some essays about Italian medieval 
food, particularly about Sicily. Apparently butter and lard were more 
in use there than olive oil, it seems odd to me that butter in period 
was cheaper, but that seemed to be the case.

I also found out that Clifford Wright will also take the time to write 
to you, if you have a question you think he could answer. That's really 
cool.

Gianotta

Date: Tu, 16 Dec 2004 18:31:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Italian March menus
To: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Christiane wrote:
> There's a little more information in the book about how the kitchens  
> were supplied at Ferrara, what they used, and what they grew and  
> raised. Let me know if it's of interest to anyone, and I'll post it.

Kiri wrote:
Yes, I'd be very interested in this latter information, if it's not too
much trouble....
<<<

Not too much trouble at all! The information isn't very extensive,  
alas, but there might be a morsel or two in it that you may find  
appetizing <g>.

The writer says the poor ate little fish during Lent because of  
scarcity of fresh fish and accompanying high prices; the poor stuck  
with beans, chickpeas, fruit, and vegetables.

Direct quotes here:

"Due to the difficulty of keeping food fresh, the predominant taste in  
dishes of the day was of preservatives — salt or sugar. In Lucrezia's  
kitchen, the pig was the most useful animal, prepared in various ways  
and used in he making of salami, and sausages (zambudelli) and  
prosciutto. Salted ox tongues were also appreciated for their  
practicality [here I have to break in and say, Italians ate  
pastrami?]."

"Fruits in syrup of sugar and spices were particularly appreciated by  
Isabella d'Este, who frequently requested them from Lucrezia's  
'Vincentio spetiale' [he was a confectioner and part of Lucrezia's  
household]. They also raised capons, calves, peacocks, and guinea fowl  
(galline da India), kid, ducks and swan, supplemented by game in  
season, and given the lagoons and waterways of the Po area, they ate a  
great variety of fish, notably eels from the Comacchio and carpioni  
provided by Isabella from Lake Garda. Then there were cheeses and pasta  
dishes."

The writer goes on to say something about the presentation of banquets.  
Often they were a movable feast held in different rooms in different  
seasons, with a credenza loaded with cold dishes and the family's  
display of gold and silver plate. Most of te Este plate, however, had  
pretty much disappeared by 1515, melted down or pawned to provide funds  
to fight back against Pope Julius II. The court ate off of pottery  
produced, believe it or not, by Duke Alfonso II, Lucrezia's husband (he  
apparently was quite the craftsman, also cast his own large artillery  
cannon). Hot courses of at least eight dishes each from the kitchen  
alternated with cold courses served from the credenza. At Lucrezia's  
court, everything was coordinated by Cristoforo da Mssibugo. He was  
apparently pretty famous in his own day and wrote a book called  
"Banchetti." I bet Helewyse and others on this list might know where a  
copy in English would be available! Unfortunately I don't.

Gianotta

Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2004 06:23:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] libro novo by C. Messisbugo
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<sip> At Lucrezia's court, everything was coordinated by Cristoforo da  
Messibugo. He was apparently pretty famous in his own day and wrote a  
book called "Banchetti." I bet Helewyse and others on this list might  
know where a copy in English would be available! Unfortunately I don't.

Gianotta

This is the book translated by Master Basillius of the Midrealm, he has  
it on CD.  He will be selling it at Candlemas this upcoming February.   
I have contact information for both him and his apprentice Rachao. If  
anyone is interested in a copy and aren't conveniently living in the  
midwest if you contact me off list I will pass their contact  
information on to you and you can work it out from there.

Helewyse

Date: Tue, 05 Jul 2005 23:31:34 -0400
From: Robin <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meats Pizziola
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Adam N Bratcher wrote:
> Hello all,  The local shire i play with is planning a picnic in the  
> park shortly and the requested main dish is to be late 16th century  
> Italy cooking.

Helwyse has translated some recipes from Scappi, which is late 16th c.
Italian.  Look at her website:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/
-- 
Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
Robin Carroll-Mann *** rcmann4 at earthlink.net

Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 08:06:44 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meats Pizziola
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jul 5, 2005, at 11:19 PM, Adam N Bratcher wrote:

> Hello all,  The local shire i play with is planning a picnic in the
> park shortly and the requested main dish is to be late 16th century
> Italy cooking.  After doing a bit of searching, I found most of the
> cookbooks i need are in Italian.  Now being of the non Italian
> speakig group, i have a distinct disadvantage.  A dish i know of
> coming from that time period is a dish called Meats Pizziola.  Does
> anyone know where i might find a reciepe for this?  I would be very
> grateful for any help in this quest.
>
>  Adam

If you want a modern recipe, they're all over the Web, if you do a
search for steak pizzaiola (try that spelling; it seems to be the
most consistently used). Also look for chicken pizzaiola, veal
pizzaiola, etc. Basically in its current incarnation (no pun
intended), it's a dish of sauteed cutlets or other small meat slices
lightly braised in a sauce made from plum tomatoes, wine, garlic,
parsley and oregano. There doesn't seem to be too much information
available as to why it is called pizzaiola, although the ingredients
are among those you'd probably find in any pizzeria. And in an
interesting example of form following name rather than function, some
(but by no means all) pizzaiola recipes do involve melting mozzarella
cheese on top of the finished dish.

I have no idea if the dish is period, unless one simply works on the
assumption that all dishes calling for tomatoes are a possibility
after 1492 CE. Depending on how important adherence to periodicity is
to you, you could either A) cook a modern dish of pizzaiola, and
present it as a modern dish, B) find a period recipe for pizzaiola in
one of the period Italian sources, some of which are available in
English (Scappi has been mentioned, and Platina also has some recipes
for little meat slices, although that source is 15th-century and
doesn't include tomatoes in any of its recipes), C) find and use
another period recipe for meat slices (or anything else) that
probably won't be recognizable as pizzaiola, or D) cook any of the
period dishes of meat slices (usually grilled, but there may be some
sauteed dishes out there), and then serve it with a tomato sauce like
the one Gerard describes in his English-language Herbal of the late
16th century as a Spanish sauce. The result would be a more or less
conjectural dish of [dish name, i.e. scaloppini, carne, whatever] in
salsa Espagnola.

That last one would be a bit of a stretch, but I've seen worse. If it
were me, I'd prepare one of the period meat-slice dishes from Scappi,
Platina, or another source, and consider serving the tomato sauce on
the side, or simply not bother with the sauce, or choose a known
period-and-place-specific sauce from the same source to go with the
meat, such as a green sauce made from herbs and vinegar.

After all, isn't a great part of the SCA experience doing the things
we wouldn't be doing in a mundane setting? We dress differently, do
different things for fun, listen to different music, etc. Why not eat
something different, too?

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 8 Jul 2005 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: meat pizziola
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Adam, I doubt very much that your source was accurate.  Fiction writers  
rarely need to check their facts the way that cooks should.  It will  
probably be a very tasty dish, a fact that is hard to argue with. But  
it certainly isn't a period Italian one.  There are braised meats in  
sauce in many of the Italian cookbooks but the recipe rarely starts  
with browning the meat in a pan.  Roasting it and then cooking it a  
little further yes.  There is a recipe from the libro novo where thin  
slices of veal meat are pounded flat, seasoned with vinegar and salt.   
A stuffing of herbs, fennel, garlic, lard, eggs, is made, rolled up in  
the meat and then they are cooked on the spit, before being stewed with  
bitter orange.  They can also be filled with cheese. There is also a  
recipe for sausages which are cooked on the spit and then stewed with  
sugar, cinnamon and bitter orange.

Recipe 87A is most similar to the pizaolla. (Taken from Master  
Basillius translation of the libro novo).

Meat slices fried in the frying pan

Take the meat and make thin slices, like in the others it is named  
(recipe 98B) and pound them well with the back ofthe knife, and put  
them in a pot with salt, pepper and pounded fennel and vinegar, and if  
you shall want a little crushed garlic, (it is) nothing to leave it  
out. And leave them for a quarter-hour, and then dip them in flour and  
fry in lard, and when they are cooked put over them bitter oranges or  
royal sauce, or brown sauce or others.

Royal sauce for ten platters: Take a terra cotta pot of new earth (i.e.  
a new pot) and put inside it two pounds of good sugar, and flour  
glassfulss (about 28 ounces) of strong white vinegar, and twelve whole  
cloves, and a piece of good cinnamon stick cut very finely. then put it  
to the fire over the coals and make it to boil so much that should  
thicken it and skim it well, and watch that it does not get too thick,  
and a small amount of ground nutmeg shall be good.

To make a brown sauce for ten platters: Take a pound of seeded raisins  
and the crumb of three toasted breads, and soak in strong vinegar and  
pound everything well together. Then take a carafe (~0.979 liters) of  
good red wine and two glassfuls (~14 ounces) of good strong vinegar and  
dilute everything together and pass through the cloth filter. Then add  
a pound of honey, more or less, if in your judgement it has enough  
sweetness and sourness, an ounce of ground cinnamon, a half-ounce of  
pepper, a half-ounce of ginger, a quarter-ounce of cloves. And you  
shall put it in a pot, with a pound of seeded raisins and you shall  
make it to boil until it is thick, always stirring it, and make it to  
cook very slowly.  Then you shall place it in the small platters, in  
there place, or over fowls or roasted meats, or fried fishes, or where  
you like, and sauces of this kind can also be made with breadcrumbs.

Use these recipes if you would like. They are not meat pizziola, but  
then pizza wasn't pizza until much later (check  
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/pizza.html ) for examples of period  
"pizza" it basically meant flat flaky bread.

Helewyse

>>>
Some one ask about where i heard about this Meats Pizziola dish.  I
read it in a book i read some years ago called Shogun.  I recall one of  
the characters wishing he was back home in Italy where he could eat  
Meats Pizziola and some other dish.  Here is one recipe i have found  
so far.  www.cooks.com/rec/doc/0,1926,152182-245204,00.html Just for  
giggles i am going to try it out on Sunday.  I'll let you all know how  
it turns out.                                                            
    Adam
<<<

Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 04:52:14 -0700 (PDT
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: How meals are served in period
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Maggie,

Asa student of Late Italian cuisine I offered a class at MKCC last 
year regarding design of the Italian feast based on the menus available 
in Scappi.  I posted notes from my class here 
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/italianfeastplanning.html

Scappi gave wonderful detail about all his feasts allowing us to 
determine how feasts were served in the Vatican at least.  Messisbugo 
(Banchetti) also gives some feast menus and they too appear to follow a 
similar plan, using the sideboard to serve the first ad last courses.  
If you let me know what month you are doing feast I may be able to get 
some menus translated for you after Pennsic (too much to do too little 
time to do it in advance of Pennsic).  The only supper type menus seem 
to be those served on saints days.  
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/octobermenus.html scroll down to the 
very last menu for details.

Helewyse

>>>>
I've been curious about how meals are served in period. I"ve always
been told that it was served in courses/removes, with each eing a
miniature meal in itself.

Was this always done?

Recently I noticed a feast that was served apparently an item at a
time, not in "courses/removes" and was done really really well.

Is there a document somewhere that describes a _simple_ meal? (I tend
to doubt that because why would anyone write about a meal that wasn't
unusual in some sense?)

I'm trying to plan a meal that the event steward has asked be themed
in late period Italian, so that will play a part in it too. (I've
been reading "The Star Dispose" and "The Stars Compel" and getting
lots of inspiration from their interpretations of Apicius).

Maggie MacD.
<<<

Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 05:43:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 10, Issue 57
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Jadwiga wrote: Since it's unclear how often salads were served,  
should I try to limit how often I make salad in the SCA?

Depends?  Now for 16th century Italian food, salads turn up just  
about every dinner in the first course, along with such other foods  
not eaten in the north such as raw fruit.  They are listed in just  
about every dinner menu made from any number of interesting things.  
In addition there is a book

Archidipno overo dell'insalata e dell'vso di essa ... / da Saluatore Massonio ... In Venetia : appresso Marc'Antonio Brogiollo ..., 1627.

Which only talks about salads and it's free online at dioscoredes:
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp? 
ref=B20397215&idioma=0

It talks about vinegar, oil, salt and why this is how a salad should  
be dressed, then talks about other dressing ingredients including:  
sapa, lemon and sour orange juice, pepper and garlic.  Then  
introduces each vegetable and herb that can be served in a salad, and  
how it is prepared for that salad.  It is more of a health manual  
than a cookbook so you have to wade through all the stuff plagiarized  
from worthy Latin sources to find the cooking information but is is  
there (usually in the form: and these are more healthful if roasted  
before serving cold, with a dressing of sour orange juice salt and  
olive oil).

Some vegetables covered:
Parsnips, ramps, beet root, cress, turnip, radishes, sprouts, fennel,  
asparagus, truffles, lettuce, endive, chicory, rocket, nasturtium,  
borage, lemon balm, beans, cauliflower, peas, squash, and a whole  
bunch of herbs.

So I say salad ahead, of course you'll need to start cooking 16th  
century Italian, but that's no bad thing:-)

Helewyse

Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:24:04 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] I ricettari di Federico II was new medieval cookbook
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 01:50:59 -0500
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,

Here is part of the rundown on I ricettari di Federico II!
The review in PPC 81 from 2006 notes:
An important edition of the Liber de coquina in all its guises
from a core of southern Italian recipes to various regional overlays and
reworkings.
A long introduction discusses the state of Scilian cookery in the reign of
the Hohenstaufen Emperor Frederick II and the several manuscripts are
serially collated so that the reader can compare and contrast."

OldCook.com gives a fairly good summary of the thesis that the
book is presenting. http://www.oldcook.com/liber_de_coquina.htm
Google will translate if need be.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 15:50:00 -0400
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] good herbs
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

otsisto wrote:
> When a translation says "good herbs" what is the standard generic  
> list of herbs added?

I see from your subsequent post that this is an Italian recipe.  There's
a classic trio of herbs in Spanish cooking that I have also seen in
Italian recipes: parsley, mint, and marjoram.

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:32:29 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ideas for 1300 Italy
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The 1300's ought to be the mid 14th century, right?

There are some 14th century Italian manuscripts that have been  
published.

Take a look at Mistress Helewyse's Italian cookery pages at
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/

There's a list of what's available in terms of manuscripts and books
that she has found:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/italianbibliography.html
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/Italianfoodmanuscripts.html

Libri de ricette, testi sopra lo scalco, il trinciante e i vini dal XIV
al XIX secolo.
contains the anonymous Venetian cookbook (Anonimo Venetiano) and the
anonymous Tuscan (Anonimo Toscano).  Both these recipe collections have
been transcribed and are available on the web.
The transcription of the Anonimo Toscano is available at:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/an-tosc.htm
<http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/%7Egloning/an-tosc.htm>
There is no translation of this.
The transcription of the Anonimo Venetiano is available at:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/frati.htm
<http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/%7Egloning/frati.htm>
The translation of this is available at:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/libro.html
with an updated translation slowly being webbed at:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/libroenglish

Those might work for you.

Johnnae

Anplica Fiore wrote:
> Here's something for you all to ruminate over if we need something to
> talk about.  >grin<  For Twelth Night this year, we're encouraging
> everyone in our group to bring a dish for the pot luck that is
> period-correct (or even close) for their persona.  I hail from
> 1300-ish Central Italy.  Any ideas?  I've seen a couple Italian
> cookbooks online from the 14th-15th Century, but not earlier.
>
> An

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:07:24 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ideas for 1300 Italy
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Well, it's late 1300s, but it's Italian:
http://www.geocities.com/anahita_whitehorse/LibroDellaCocina.html

I host a cookbook on my website translated by my friend, Vittoria
Aureli. It's a Tuscan cookbook, variously known as Anonimo Tuscano,
and Libro della Cocina.

The original is not on my website, but there's a link to the original
Italian on Thomas Gloning's website, so if you down load both you can
compare them. His website has moved a few times in the past year, so
if the link doesn't take you to his site, do a search for his name to
find his current URL.
--
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:56:43 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ideas for 1300 Italy
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Anonimo Venetiano referenced in an earlier message was originally
written somewhere between 1300 and 1350.  It was edited from a 15th Century
manuscript by Ludovico Frati, combined with the Anonimo Toscano (late 14th
or early 15th Century) and published as Libro de cucina secolo XIV in 1899.
Other than a dietary text and a collection of sauce recipes, both by
Magninus Mediolanensis, the Anonimo Venetiano is as close as you will likely
get to what you want.

To repeat the urls, transcript of the Frati text:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/frati.htm

Modern translation:
http://www.geocities.com/helewyse/libro.html

Bear

----- Original Message -----

Looks like there are some good dishes in these.  Thank you!  I was
hoping for something closer to 1300, but I know documentation can be
tough the earlier you go.  I'm thinking of a roasted pork with the
pepper sauce.  Looks very yummy.

An

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:31:49 +0200 (CEST)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ideas for 1300 Italy
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Looks like there are some good dishes in these.
> Thank you!  I was hoping for something closer to
> 1300, but I know documentation can be tough the
> earlier you go.  I'm thinking of a roasted pork with
> the pepper sauce.  Looks very yummy.

You may want to look at the LIber de Coquina then. The
Latin text was composed sometimes around 1300 (experts
believe) from two separate vernacular texts, one of
which is placed in Southern Italy. Available in print,
translation by Robert Maier, at a surprisingly
reasonable price (ISBN 3-937446-08-7). The translation
is into German, but he includes the Middle Latin text
so you should be able to figure it out even if you
don't read German.

IIRC there is also an Italian translation or edition
of this book out there, but I haven't been able to
track it down yet.

Giano

Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:33:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ideas for 1300 Italy
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

You might want to search for further information on the "brigata  
spendereccia", a bunch of 12 young men of Siena, Italy, who were  
famous in their time (second half of the 13th century) for having  
spent lots of money on good food and other pleasant things. They are  
mentioned later on by Dante and others. I have no idea, however, if  
there is information on what exactly they were eating and how it was  
prepared.

Some of the authors mentioning the brigata spendereccia are quoted in  
this article of the "Tesoro della Lingua Italiana delle  
origini" (Tesoro della Lingua Italiana delle origini. Il primo  
dizionario storico
dell'italiano antico che nasce direttamente in rete:
http://tlio.ovi.cnr.it/):

http://tlio.ovi.cnr.it/voci/006678.htm

The libro de coquina and its companion text are online at:
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/mul2-lib.htm
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/tx/mul1-tra.htm

Emilio

Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 00:59:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Searching for Period Italian Leek Soup recipe
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Consider this:

"Incipit registrum coquine in quadragesima, et primo de porro.
Sic fac ministrum de porro. Recipe porrum album, et lava eum bene, et  
fac eum modicum bulire; et tunc trita eum cum cultello, et tempera eum cum
lacte amigdalarum, et mitte intus oleum olive, et panem grattatum,
cum zapharano. Et erit bonum pro canonicis et vicariis ecclesiasticis."
(Giovanni Bockenheym, La cucina di Papa Martino V, 1995).

Johannes Bockenheym/Giovanni Bockenheym served as a cook to pope  
Martin V. His "registrum coquine" is written in Latin and includes  
both aspects of Italian and international cuisine of 15th century Rome.

I am not sure if ministrum/minestra is a soup or rather something  
like a thick broth or something else.

Emilio

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 20:18:24 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thank you - re: Late Italian feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Perhaps a bit esoteric but you might also take a look at
Westbury, Lord, Handlist of Italian Cookery Books, Florence: Leo S.
Olschki Editore, 1963
Excellent bibliography of Italian Cookbooks.
I am sure it is available on interlibrary loan.

David

Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 23:35:20 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thank you - re: Late Italian feasts
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Actually Italian Cuisine by Alberto Capatti, Massimo Montanari, and Aine
O'Healy is more up to date if one wants a history of the cuisine.
Westbury these days is for the specialist bibliographer. It's not that
easy to find anymore.

I'd recommend Cagle before Westbury myself. I own both. I use Cagle more often.
And for that matter Gillian Riley's The Oxford Companion to Italian Food isn't bad in terms of what it lists.

Johnnae

David Walddon wrote:
> Perhaps a bit esoteric but you might also take a look at
> Westbury, Lord, Handlist of Italian Cookery Books, Florence: Leo S.
> Olschki Editore, 1963

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 01:00:26 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] DaVinci and Martino was Happy about Scappi
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I am afraid that DaVinci's Kitchen didn't meet my standards.
A bibliography was promised on a web site. Then they decided
not to publish the bibliography at all.

I actually corresponded with the author about some of his sources
and where he got certain facts. The upshot was that he couldn't remember 
what the sources were. I mean really!

One of the most hilarious things that I came across in the book was
this quote:

"The chronicler Claudio Benporat, writing about 1500, describes one
of the more elaborate banquets for the pope" on page 103.

I was really amused by this because I have corresponded with Claudio
Benporat and as far as I know he is alive and well and living in Bologna.
He's a very prominent Italian food historian in fact.
Even if he has died, I doubt that he transported himself back to 1500.
Yet here we have him credited for a banquet in 1500?!?

This is like they say really funny or really sad.
And in any case I wouldn't trust this book at all.

-------------

The University of California Press published  The Art of Cooking.
It's by Parzen and is good English version of the 15th c. Martino manuscript.
I will warn you that the "fifty modernized recipes by acclaimed Italian 
chef Stefania Barzini."
do contain potatoes, cherry tomatoes, red pepper, etc.
I mean here when they say modernized, it really means modernized!

For the money I still think people ought to buy Italian Cuisine: A Cultural History by Capatti and Montanari. It's by Columbia University Press which also 
published Pasta by Silvano Serventi and Francoise Sabban. Both of those are excellent books and good food histories.

Johnnae (playing librarian)

Maria Buchanan wrote:
<<< Hey all.  What's everyone's view on the book Art of Cooking: The First Modern Cookery Book?  I bought it recently and haven't gotten it yet, but I'm waiting a little impatiently.  I also recently bought a book called DaVinci's Kitchen, which is really good, and one called The Renaissance of Italian cooking, which I'm also waiting for.
I'm really enjoying DaVinci's Kitchen.  I'm hoping the other two are good.  

Maria >>>

Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 00:35:01 -0600
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] DaVinci and Martino was Happy about Scappi
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The statement can be taken that Claudio Benporat wrote about banquets in the
1500s for the pope and not that he was from the 1500s. Though I do see the
title of "chronicler" does seem to lean the statement toward Mr. Benporat
being of the time period.

De

-----Original Message-----
"The chronicler Claudio Benporat, writing about 1500, describes one
of the more elaborate banquets for the pope" on page 103.

Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 15:09:58 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Forthcoming Books
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

New Books that people might like

Johnnae (playing librarian)

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/browse.cfm/CatID/797/O/P/n/25

Invito alla mensa del mercante del Trecento/ An Invitation to the
     Table of a Merchant of the Trecento: Usi, arnesi e ricette della
     cucina medievale / Customs, Utensils and Recipes in the Medieval
     Kitchen

edited by Rosanna Caterina Proto Pisani, translated by Josephine
       Rogers Mariotti

This is the cookbook of the Museo di Palazzo Davanzati .... The cooking 
culture of Medieval Italy is realized in color reproductions of works by Lorenzetti, Buoninsegna, Cennini, and many others. Kitchen utensils are described and illustrated, and some original, hand-written recipes are faithfully reproduced, deciphered, and translated into English: Porrata Bianca
(White Leek Porridge), Pollastri Affinocchiati (Baby Hens with Fennel),
Torta di Gamberi (Crayfish Tart) and Fichi Ripieni (Stuffed Figs). /48p,
col illus. (Edizioni Polistampa 2009) /Not yet published - advance
orders taken. Price US $9.00

----

 The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy (1614) by Giacomo Castelvetro, 
edited and translated by Gillian Riley

This is a new edition of a classic of early 17th-century food writing.
The book was written by the Italian refugee, educator, and humanist
Giacomo Castelvetro, who had been saved from the clutches of the
Inquisition in Venice by the English ambassador, Sir Dudley Carleton, in
1611. Not yet published - advance orders taken. Price US $24.00

<snip>

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 21:16:18 -0400
From: "Jim and Andi" <jimandandi at cox.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] New Medieval Italian cookbook?
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Invito alla mensa del mercante del Trecento/ An Invitation to the Table
of a Merchant of the Trecento: Usi, arnesi e ricette della cucina
medievale / Customs, Utensils and Recipes in the Medieval Kitchen
edited by Rosanna Caterina Proto Pisani, translated by Josephine Rogers
Mariotti

This is the cookbook of the Museo di Palazzo Davanzati and comes from
the material produced in the period 1980-1990 by Maria Fossi Todorow in
collaboration with Mina Bacci, Chiara Baldasseroni, Maria Paola Masini,
Maria Luisa Selvi and Cristina Valenti. The cooking culture of Medieval
Italy is realized in color reproductions of works by Lorenzetti,
Buoninsegna, Cennini, and many others. Kitchen utensils are described
and illustrated, and some original, hand-written recipes are faithfully
reproduced, deciphered, and translated into English: Porrata Bianca
(White Leek Porridge), Pollastri Affinocchiati (Baby Hens with Fennel),
Torta di Gamberi (Crayfish Tart) and Fichi Ripieni (Stuffed Figs). 48p,
col illus. (Edizioni Polistampa 2009)

ISBN-13: 978-88-596-0610-9 
ISBN-10: 88-596-0610-1 
Paperback. Not yet published - advance orders taken. Price US $15.00

http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm/ID/69910//Location/DBBC

Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 23:22:05 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another New Art in Food Book
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's another forthcoming excuse to spend money too.
But think of them as Christmas/holiday presents...

Johnnae

Tastes and Temptations: Food and Art in Renaissance Italy by John Varriano
University Of California Press, to be published  Nov  2009
California Studies in /Food/ and Culture #27:
*ISBN-10: *
0520259041
*ISBN-13: *
9780520259041
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/11332.php

AND there's also
Zanini De Vita, Oretta
Encyclopedia of Pasta <http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/11106.php>
California Studies in Food and Culture, 26 
<http://www.ucpress.edu/books/series/csfc.php>
$29.95 hardcover; 9780520255227 which is due in October
http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/11106.php

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 12:33:50 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] New Castelvetro

Does anyone know if there is new information in the new edition of the
below? 

 The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy (1614) by Giacomo Castelvetro,
edited and translated by Gillian Riley

This is a new edition of a classic of early 17th-century food writing.
The book was written by the Italian refugee, educator, and humanist
Giacomo Castelvetro, who had been saved from the clutches of the
Inquisition in Venice by the English ambassador, Sir Dudley Carleton, in
1611. Not yet published - advance orders taken. Price US $24.00

Eduardo

Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2009 17:31:06 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New Castelvetro

The full write up is at Prospect Books UK
http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/shop/pages/isbn644.htm

"This is a new edition of a classic of early 17th-century food writing. 
The book was written by the Italian refugee, educator and humanist 
Giacomo Castelvetro who had been saved from the clutches of the 
Inquisition in Venice by the English ambassador, Sir Dudley Carleton in 
1611. .... Gillian Riley's translation of this hitherto unpublished 
document has been recognised as being fluent, entertaining and accurate 
from its first appearance in 1989."

This edition is printed in two colours, has a graceful typography (using 
the Galliard typeface) and generous layout, and is equipped with a 
knowledgeable and informative introduction by the translator.

We'll have to get a copy I guess to see if it varies from the 1989 one.

Johnnae

David Walddon wrote:
<<< Does anyone know if there is new information in the new edition of the
below? 
 The Fruit, Herbs & Vegetables of Italy (1614)by Giacomo Castelvetro,
edited and translated by Gillian Riley
Eduardo >>>

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 17:50:24 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Italian cookbook that hasn't been
	translated

There are some 16th c. Italian cookbooks on Fons Grewe.  I don't know
if they've been translated or not.
http://www.bib.ub.edu/fileadmin/imatges/llibres/grewe1.htm

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:30:03 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Italian cookbook that hasn't been
	translated

On Jan 11, 2010, at 3:53 PM, David Friedman wrote:
<<< In addition to the untranslated works that Johnnae pointed out you  
may also want to try the recipe section from Pisanelli, Baldasare  
"Della natura de cibi" available here online
http://alfama.sim.ucm.es/dioscorides/consulta_libro.asp?ref=X533107074&idioma=0
>>>

I have a copy of the Manoscritto Lucano. My copy came from Switzerland
and was purchased following a search through ABE Books.

Manoscritto Lucano: Ein Unveroffentlichtes Kochbuch Aus Suditalien Vom  
Beginn Des 16. Jahrhunderts
Author: Michael Suthold
Language: German
Format: Book (Illustrated), 331 pages
Publication Date: January 1994
Publisher: Unknown
ISBN-10: 2600000372
ISBN-13: 9782600000376

It's running about 70.00 plus and up now. I paid $61.00.
You ought to be able to interlibrary loan a copy of it.

-------
The Della natura de cibi is described here:
http://www.lib.uwaterloo.ca/seagrams/cookery/sea18.html

"This sixteenth century work is among the earliest of the cookery and  
gastronomy books in the Seagram Library.

Baldassar Pisanelli practised medicine in Bologna and became famous as  
result of the publication of this book. In it he describes the natural  
history, the usages, the qualities of fruits, liqueurs, meats, game,  
fish, milk, cheese, etc., and under what conditions the food and  
drinks should be used.

On each page two foods are described, with sub-headings in italics in  
the margin, and the natural history of these on the opposite page.  
Shown here are descriptions of lvpoli and carrots."

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 18:38:21 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another Italian Digital Library

Due to Duke C's questions about Italian works, I was doing some  
browsing and came across another online digital archive.

http://www.academiabarilla.com/academia/gastronomic-library/ext/digital-book/year.aspx

The World of Academia Barilla

There's 76 items here including

Libreto de lo excellentissimo physico maistro Michele Savonarola: de  
tutte le cose che se manzano comunamente [?]

Author: SAVONAROLA Michele (1384-1468)
Publisher: Bernardino Benalio Bergomense
City of Publication: Venezia
Year: 1515, luglio 16
There's also a selection of historic menus, culinary prints, etc.

like they say happy dance, happy dance

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:33:33 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Wanted: Italian cookbook that hasn't been
	translated

On Tue, Jan 12, 2010 at 8:27 AM, Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com> wrote:
<<< the book I was thinking of was: Chapter 5 of
Romoli, Domenico. La Singolare dottrina di M. Domenico Romoli. In
Venetia : presso Gio. Battista Bonfadino, 1593.
Available online at the link that Brighid pointed out:
http://www.bib.ub.edu/fileadmin/imatges/llibres/grewe1.htm >>>

The 1593 edition (and the 1587) are also available on Google Books,
which may be easier to download.

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 09:54:06 -0800 (PST)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks]  Wanted: Italian cookbook ... Pisanelli

The book of Pisanelli is online in a 1586 edition on the slow-issimo server of the Oerobro collection:

http://130.243.103.139:8080/cgi-bin/library?e=p-000-00---0unicoo--00-0-0--0prompt-10---4------0-1l--1-sv-50---20-help---00031-001-1-0utfZz-8-00&a=d&cl=CL1

E.

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 13:29:25 +1300
From: Antonia Calvo <dama.antonia at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Michelangelo and Butter

Suey wrote:
<<< I can't imagine butter being served in an Italian feast of that 
period. Olive oil is more likely if anything at all. The first butter 
factory in Madrid was at the turn of the 19th Century for Fernando 
VII's third wife. It closed after she died meaning it was as short 
lived as her marriage. >>>

Maestro Martino (15th century) certainly has plenty of mentions of 
butter in his book, including a recipe for a mock butter for fast days. 

Bartolomeo Scappi (16th century) mentions butter in several of his menus.
-- 
Antonia di Benedetto Calvo

Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:58:19 +0000
From: CHARLES POTTER <basiliusphocas at hotmail.com>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Michelangelo and Butter

 Butter is almost always placed on the table at the begging of the feast in the Bancetti/Libro Novo (1549) by Christforo Messisbugo.

                             Master B 

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 22:09:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Messisbugo mentioned

Here is an article where Messisbugo is mentioned:
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/9b55518s

E.

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 06:30:56 -0600
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Class on 15th c Italian food

<<< I agreed to teach a class on 15th century Italian food at an event in about
six weeks time (eep, need to get organised). I've come up with a list of
dishes we will be having a go at (I may yet trim it when I work out budget
or timing in a bit more detail). I've tried to pick things that are staples
of Italian cooking even now, or have modern equivalents even if they are
very different, with the aim of tilting the class towards answering the
question of 'what did the Italians eat before they had pasta?' 
Angharad >>>

Have you taken a look at Due Libre B, recently webbed on my site?

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Due_Libre_B/Due_Libre_B.html

15th c. southern Italian. Might have useful recipes.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:29:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Italian Banquet 1598

Rhodes, in an article in 'Italian Studies' 1972, reports, that only two copies 
of _The Italian Banquet_ survived:

-- the one in the Henry E. Huntington Library (available via EEBO)

-- one in the Bodleian Library, Oxford, which is confirmed by their OPAC

Location
Shelfmark
Availability/Copy Note
Bodleian Library Antiq.e.E.1598.2 

I was mistaken in stating that the Munich Library owns a copy. 

Does anybody know of other copies around the world?

E.

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 21:32:26 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian Banquet 1598

U Chicago is listed in one bibliography.

Worldcat lists Bayerische Staatsbibliothek
Bavarian State Library (BSB) M?nchen, D-80539 Germany

Johnnae

On Aug 23, 2010, at 6:29 PM, emilio szabo wrote:
<<< Rhodes, in an article in 'Italian Studies' 1972, reports, that only  
two copies of _The Italian Banquet_ survived >>>

Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 17:45:51 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Baroness Helewyse's Files was Scappi

Speaking about Italian recipes and articles and cooks like Scappi:
http://www.medievalcookery.com/helewyse/ 

is the new location for Baroness Helewyse's files from what was Geocities.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:21:01 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Feast at Mategrifon

For Southern Italy, You may also want to look at Due Libre B 
An Early 15th Century Recipe Collection from Southern Italy. 
Translated by Rebecca Friedman with 
Notes and Glossary; Text and Translation; Some Worked Out Recipes

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Due_Libre_B/Due_Libre_B.html

Or by all means try to find this one

Anna Martellotti: I Ricettari di Federico II: Leo S. Olschki, 2006: ISBN 88. 222 5442 2: 281 pp., paperback, ?28.00.

CULTURE: MIDDLE AGES - COOKBOOK ATTRIBUTED TO GOURMET EMPEROR FEDERICO II
Rome, Jan. 16th - (Adnkronos) - Emperor Federico II was also a
first-rate gourmet, a passionate connoisseur of the art of cooking. And
to his patronage we owe the writing up, between 1230 and 1250, of the
''Liber de coquina''. This is what is sustained by Anna Martellotti,
former German history professor at the University of Bari, in the essay
''I ricettari di Federico II'' [The recipe books of Federico II],
published by the Olschki publishing house. 

http://www.culturagastronomica.it/site/it-IT/La_Banca_Dati/Manoscritti_medioevali/

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 12:41:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] "I ricettari di Federico II: dal Meridionale al
	Liber	de coquina"

This book has recently come into my hands, and I thought I'd give my impressions of it so far.

The author, Anna Martellotti, argues that the Liber de coquina is not Angevin in origin, but from the Swabian court of Frederick II, which in turn owes a debt to the Norman/Arab/Greek syncreticism of the Norman court of Palermo (where Frederick was raised).

First, if you don't read Italian, the intro that talks about the history, the people, and the state of cuisine in Frederick's day won't do you much good. But if you do, it's fascinating to see mentions of scholars who had been at Frederick's court in Naples and where they dispersed to later. Martellotti also argues that Frederick had been as interested in cookery and cuisine has he had been in falconry. I think (I will have to go back and re-read this bit more closely) that she also mentions that the library at the Norman court of Palermo, with its Arab and Greek books, had been transferred to Naples and after his death, dispersed by the Angevins. She seems to surmise that the library had included copies of Arab dietetic books like the Tacuinum Sanitatis by ibn Butlan.

The most valuable part of the book for SCA cooks is how she goes recipe by recipe from the two manuscripts of the Liber de coquina (the Parisian ones), a currently unpublished cookbook now in the Vatican Library that dates from the mid-15th century, the Anonimo Toscano, and the "Meridionale," an early 14th century-15th century manuscript that was also copied in Latin. 

Ultimately, what Martellotti is surmising is that there was some early 13th century manuscript that was the progenitor of all of these cookbooks, and that it was from Frederick's court.

I found a forum where people are giving their own theories, with charts, about the order that these manuscripts were published:

http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/forum/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=2277

In looking at the recipes side by side, the similarities in the language of the instructions of ingredients and preparation of certain dishes are striking. 

Martellotti also talks about the traditional dishes of Apulia and the South that seem to be descended from the medieval dishes, arguing that the economic and cultural isolation that the South endured while "Italian" cooking traditions were codified in the North helped preserve some of the medieval traditions (stuff like fava bean mashes). 

I hope this review is helpful; I can say that this book is now readily available on outlets such as AbeBooks for a fairly reasonable price, so you can take a look at it yourselves.

Adelisa

Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2012 13:05:26 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] "I ricettari di Federico II: dal Meridionale
	al Liber	de coquina"

Readers might like this site too.
www.culturagastronomica.it/

http://www.culturagastronomica.it/site/it-IT/La_Banca_Dati/Manoscritti_medioevali/

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2013 14:53:26 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com, west-cooks at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] New Bibliography has been published

The new Gauntlet (regional newsletter for Pentamere) has been published with the latest and quite probably the last installment
of my bibliographic series.  The topic this time was

Medieval and Renaissance Cookery and Cookbooks of Italy 

Volume 2013 # 1      A.S. LXVI
http://www.midrealm.org/pentamere/pentamere_gauntlet.html

Click on Volume 2013 #1 and the .pdf will download.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:31:58 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: <lilinah at earthlink.net>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy

<<< Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy: From Kitchen to Table
by Katherine A. McIver Rowman & Littlefield Studies in Food and Gastronomy. Hardcover. Due out December 16, 2014

Anyone hears any skuttlebutt about this book? Johnna?

Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) >>>

McIver is a history prof in Alabama and works with Smithsonian as a subject matter expert for the Italian tours.  From the little I've seen, the book is about the structure, operation and social aspects of kitchens and dining rooms in Renaissance Italy rather than a cookbook.  Johnna may have a better handle on it than I.

Bear

Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:04:18 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy

Some of us have been discussing it already. No reviews outside of the few comments here.
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442227187
The book is being released as part of a series, but the series is all over the place in terms of topics.
https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442227187

Will have to wait and see when it is published, I guess.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 09:59:49 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
To: nd sca <nd_sca at yahoo.com>, 	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for resources

<<< Do anyone know of any resources for late period Venetian cookbooks? (besides the Florigellium, I'm going to start there)

THLady Natal'ia Georgievicha >>>

There is information, sometimes indirect, in:

Scappi, Bartolomeo.
The Opera of Bartolomeo Scappi (1570).  Translated by Terence Scully. 
Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 2008.

While Scappi mostly worked in Rome, he was employed in Venice for a 
while.  The recipe information specific to Venice will require some 
effort to extract, as this book is nearly 800 pages. About 25 recipes 
are either Venetian, or mention Venice.

Thorvald

Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 15:19:48 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for resources

Venice was a center for printing so a number of the cookery books were printed there in both Latin and Italian.

You might browse my bibliography on Italian cookery for suggested editions.
http://www.midrealm.org/pentamere/pdfs/gauntlet2013q1.pdf

Johnnae

On 2014-12-23, 09:39, nd sca wrote:
<<< Do anyone know of any resources for late period Venetian cookbooks? (besides the Florigellium, I'm going to start there)

THLady Natal'ia Georgievicha >>>

Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2015 10:00:50 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Food and Knowledge in Renaissance Italy

Another new and expensive work on Renaissance foods. This time it's on Scappi's Opera.

Food and Knowledge in Renaissance Italy
Bartolomeo Scappi's Paper Kitchens
Deborah L. Krohn  

284 pages $109.00 Due out December 2015. 48 b/w illustrations. 18 color.
Though Bartolomeo Scappi's Opera (1570), the first illustrated cookbook, is well known to historians of food, up to now there has been no study of its illustrations, unique in printed books through the early seventeenth century. In Food and Knowledge in Renaissance Italy, Krohn both treats the illustrations in Scappi's cookbook as visual evidence for a lost material reality; and through the illustrations, including several newly-discovered hand-colored examples, connects Scappi's Opera with other types of late Renaissance illustrated books. What emerges from both of these approaches is a new way of thinking about the place of cookbooks in the history of knowledge.

Krohn argues that with the increasing professionalization of many skills and trades, Scappi was at the vanguard of a new way of looking not just at the kitchen-as workshop or laboratory-but at the ways in which artisanal knowledge was visualized and disseminated by a range of craftsmen, from engineers to architects. The recipes in Scappi's Opera belong on the one hand to a genre of cookery books, household manuals, and courtesy books that was well established by the middle of the sixteenth century, but the illustrations suggest connections to an entirely different and emergent world of knowledge. It is through study of the illustrations that these connections are discerned, explained, and interpreted.

As one of the most important cookbooks for early modern Europe, the time is ripe for a focused study of Scappi's Opera in the various contexts in which Krohn frames it: book history, antiquarianism, and visual studies.Contents: Introduction: cooking, reading, and writing in the late Renaissance; Biography of a book: editions and contexts; Front matters; Picturing the kitchen; pots, pans, and the illustration of knowledge; Reading Scappi; Conclusion: towards an archaeology of the printed book; Appendices; Selected bibliography; Index. http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&isbn=9781409446712&lang=cy-GB
The author will be lecturing about the book at the Getty center.

Bartolomeo Scappi's Paper Kitchens
Lecture by Deborah L. Krohn
Sunday, March 6, 2016
4:00 p.m.
Museum Lecture Hall, Getty Center
about the author
https://www.bgc.bard.edu/programs/degree-programs/faculty/deborah-l-krohn.html

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 08 Jan 2016 17:22:45 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Requesting help - 15th century Italian

You might take a look at Cooking and eating in Renaissance Italy by Katherine A. McIver.
It has a chapter on meals, mealtimes, and menus.

Johnnae

On Jan 8, 2016, at 1:00 AM, Rebecca Friedman <rebeccaanne3 at gmail.com> wrote:
<<< Does anyone know where to find period 15th century Italian menus or
descriptions of feasts? I may have volunteered to do one, and while I'm
fine for recipes (presently planning on a mixture of Martino, Platina, and
the one I translated), I don't presently have any sources for how those
recipes would have been presented - courses? How many? With specific things
in them? What would appropriate drinks have been? - and so on. Anyone know
of good sources for that? My parents can recommend 15th century english
menus, but we don't know of any Italian.

Rebecca >>>

Date: Sat, 9 Jan 2016 15:56:58 -0500
From: Sam Wallace <guillaumedep at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Requesting help - 15th century Italian

<<< Does anyone know where to find period 15th century Italian menus or
descriptions of feasts? ... >>>

You might want to have a look through the British Library's Renaissance
Festival Books (http://www.bl.uk/treasures/festivalbooks/homepage.html) I
found two in Italian from the period you are considering, but there may be
others that describe events from Italy from that same time frame written by
travelers to the region. Also, in the past, I have used online galleries to
document fruits and vegetables as well as to get ideas for seating and
similar.

Guillaume

Date: Thu, 07 Jan 2016 14:04:04 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Happy New Year

Couple new books.
Food and Knowledge in Renaissance Italy. Bartolomeo Scappi's Paper Kitchens by Deborah L. Krohn. Just published by Ashgate.
Also Wendy Wall's Recipes for Thought. Knowledge and Taste in the Early Modern English Kitchen is here.

Both are great insightful academic reads with well done bibliographies.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2016 00:46:45 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Requesting help - 15th century Italian

I don't recall seeing any in translation or any references online.  A path 
you might explore is the digital Fons Grewe Collection at the University of 
Barcelona  ( 
http://mdc.cbuc.cat/cdm/landingpage/collection/fonsgrewe/lang/en_US ). 
Unfortunately, I don't read Italian, so I'm not conversant with the Italian 
texts in the collection and can not recommend any in particular.

Bear

<<< Does anyone know where to find period 15th century Italian menus or
descriptions of feasts? I may have volunteered to do one, and while I'm
fine for recipes (presently planning on a mixture of Martino, Platina, and
the one I translated), I don't presently have any sources for how those
recipes would have been presented - courses? How many? With specific things
in them? What would appropriate drinks have been? - and so on. Anyone know
of good sources for that? My parents can recommend 15th century english
menus, but we don't know of any Italian.

Rebecca >>>

<the end>