Title: fd-Turkey-msg
Subject: Medieval Turkish food. References. Recipes.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, Turkey, Bynzantine, food, Middle East, recipe

fd-Turkey-msg – 7/19/10

Medieval Turkish food. References. Recipes.

NOTE: See also these files: ME-feasts-msg, Byzantine-msg, cl-Byzantine-msg, Turkey-msg, fd-Byzantine-msg, fd-Greece-msg, grape-leaves-msg, Islam-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 15:25:23 -0500
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: SC - turkish website of recipes

I found a nice little website of Turkish foods, no documentation but nicely
done by a guy over in turkey-
http://dominet.com.tr/turkey/recipes.html
you should check it out. It is basically recipes from home, like a nice
chicken/rice molded pudding/dessert that would go over quite well at a
summer potluck-or a fancy luncheon/tea for the royalty at a fighting event.

margali

[come on folks, he has had like 53 hits in 3 years, it deserves a look even
if it isn't documented!]

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:40:35 -0500
From: "marilyn traber" <mtraber at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SC - turkish website of recipes

I got to it through a  website www.tubears.com, mayhaps you need to get
there through them?
margali

Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 17:14:10 PST
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - turkish website of recipes

Thanks for the website, Margali, had a good time. If you follow the links
back to Turkey, you can find another Turkish recipe site.

phlip at morganco.net

Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 16:18:00 -0500
From: Woeller D <angeliq1 at erols.com>
Subject: Re: SC - turkish website of recipes

> I tried to access the Turkish website, but it asked for a user name and
> password for the network! How does one go about doing this?
>
> Arlene Silikovitz
> West Orange, NJ

Try clicking on this address:
http://www.dominet.com.tr/turkey/recipes.html

If that doesn't work, click on this address:
http://www.tubears.com/

 on THAT page, go into the first menu choice (titled '50,000 recipes'),
and go to 'Turkish Cuisine', then click on the 'go' button, and you're
there. Happy Trails...

Angelique

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 1998 00:15:01 -0400
From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at bright.net>
Subject: SC - Recipes found researching persona

I've been doing a bit of research on the 'Net, looking into my persona, and
came across these recipe sites for Turkic foods. Many of the recopes appear
to be traditional, although there are modern ingredients in several. Ras,
you'll love it- I didn't know there were this many ways to cook horse meat!

http://www.euronet.nl/users/sota/recipes.html
http://www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html
http://130.54.28.2/~insepov/food.htm
http://www.cs.umd.edu/users/kandogan/FTA/TurkishCuisine/cuisine.html
http://www.armory.com/~ssahin/mutfak/
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bingo/osh.html

Phlip

Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 17:14:41 -0600
From: "Sara K. Tallarovic" <electricfish at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - A Turkish recipe...

I have a recipe from a modern cookbook for a Turkish dish called "whiskeyed 
chicken livers" or "drunken chicken livers".  It is an absolutely delicious 
dish and I have been wondering if it, or any variation of it, may be 
documentable in period anywhere in Europe or Asia.  Here is the recipe 
(roughly):

Take about a pound of chicken livers, drain them, then marinate them at 
least 12 hours in either whiskey OR ouzo (I would imagine you could also 
use the Turkish equivalent of ouzo, but the name escapes 
me...Arkat?).  After they have marinated, toss them in a mixture of flour, 
seasoned to taste with salt and pepper.  Then fry in hot olive oil until 
crispy and cooked through.  You serve them on a bed of sauteed onions.  You 
can also substitute sliced calf liver for the chicken livers.

I cooked up a batch of these at Estrella one year in a cast iron skillet 
over an open fire.  It was a heavenly diversion from the cold feta, olives, 
and pita bread we had subsisted on most of the weekend.  I would love to 
serve them at a period middle eastern or central asian feast sometime, but 
I'd like to be able to document them.  Any one out there heard of this 
dish, and could you point me to a source?

Many thanks!
- -Shu'la

Date: Sat, 06 Jan 2001 04:44:27 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - A Turkish recipe...

<< ... a Turkish dish called "whiskeyed chicken livers" or "drunken
chicken livers".  (...) I have been wondering if it, or any variation of
it, may be documentable in period anywhere in Europe or Asia. (...) Any
one out there heard of this dish, and could you point me to a source? >>

I just went through an article about the social history of the Turkish
cuisine, where a certain number of 15th and 16th century dishes are
mentioned mostly from travelogues and kitchen rolls,  but I could not
find such a dish there. However, the sources quoted in the footnotes
might be of some help; the article is: Reindl-Kiel, H.: Wesirfinger und
Frauenschenkel. Zur Sozialgeschichte der t¸rkischen K¸che. In: Archiv
f¸r Kulturgeschichte 77 (1995) 57-84. The article is in German, the
sources quoted are in a variety of languages.

Looking at one of the sources quoted, I could not find it in Hans
Dernschwam's description of Turkish food in his diary of a travel to
Constantinople (1555; seven pages on food and dishes!). However, he says
that chicken was sold frequently and: "Aber gemainiglich findt man gutte
huner zw 6 aspern, darzw gibt man ainem die lebern vnd magen" 'But
usually, you can find good chicken for 6 aspers, and in addition you are
given the liver(s) and the stomach(s)'. At least there should be dishes
from chicken livers.

Instead of the recipe you are looking for, here is a different one:

"Hollow out young pumpkins or eggplants, fill them with chopped sheep
meat and garlic, add spices and salt, cook them without anything else in
water. They pour common yogurt, i.e. sour salted milk (like _compos_),
over this and kindred dishes. In the same way, they hollow out carrots
and fill them in the abovementioned manner".

Original: "Die jungen kyrbis auch podliczschan holert man aus, dorein
fultt man klain gehagt schaffen flaisch auch knoblach, gewurczt vnd
gesalczen, sieden sy, schlechtz im wasser ab. Vber solche vnd
dergleichen gerichte schutten sy schlecht jugurt, das ist sawer
gesalczene milich, wie compos. Also hoelern sy auch die gelben ruben aus
vnd fullen sy, wie obstatt" (Dernschwam, ed. Babinger 124; Reindl-Kiel
says that this dish, karniyarik, and others described by Dernschwam,
yaprak dolmasi, muhallebi, are still eaten today).

Th.
- -- Paviot, J.: Cuisine grecque et cuisine turque selon l'expÈrience des
voyageurs (XVe-XVIe siËcles) [Greek and Turkish cuisine according to the
experience of the travellers of the 15th and 16th centuries]. In: Bryer,
A./ Ursinus, M. (eds.): Manzikert to Lepanto. The Byzantine World and
the Turks 1071-1571. Amsterdam 1991 (Byzantinische Forschungen 16).

Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:29:24 -0500
From: LYN M PARKINSON <allilyn at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Honey Yogurt

Last night, on Travels with Rick, Rick was in eastern Turkey.  One of the
breakfast items was honey yogurt.  As the people in town were still
living in beehive houses, and didn't seem to be modernized in any way
except occasional electricity, this is likely a very old spread for
bread.  No proof, but I plan to try some and see if I like it.

Allison

Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2001 10:54:06 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - Turkish Cheese article

http://www.atamanhotel.com/cheese.html

I'm working on finding some sources on the history of our favorite
modern Middle Eastern foods, which mostly derive from Turkish cookery.
This article by Prof. Dr. Artun ‹nsal gives a few leads to period
documents, histories and legal codes mentioning foodstuffs.

http://members.nbci.com/hunkars/
Elif AK«ALI's Turkish Food Links
     The History of Turkish Cuisine

Some more period citations, including Rumi (!)

More as I find them,
Selene

Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:37:43 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: MEDIEVAL Near Eastern Food

Ok--- try these books---
Consumption studies and the history of the Ottoman Empire, 1550-1922 :
an introduction / Donald Quataert. Albany : State University of New  
York Press, 2000  358 p. ISBN: 0791444317 or 0791444325 (pbk.)
includes a paper on "Aspects of the Ottoman elite's food consumption :  
looking for "staples," "luxuries," and "delicacies" in a changing century."

The Dervish lodge : architecture, art, and Sufism in Ottoman Turkey /
Raymond Lifchez. Berkeley : University of California Press, 1992
348 p. ISBN: 0520070607 includes a paper "Food in the life of the Tekke."

Towns and townsmen of Ottoman Anatolia :
trade, crafts, and food production in an urban setting, 1520-1650 /
Suraiya Faroqhi. Cambridge [Cambridgeshire] ; New York : Cambridge  
University Press,1984 425 p.  ISBN: 0521254477

Mnemeia Hellenikes historias.
Documents in=E9dits relatifs =E0 l'histoire de la Gr=E8ce au moyen =E2ge
Konstantinos N Sathas NINE volumes done 1880-1890
in French  Paris [etc.] Maisonneuve et cie.,

This one was under Ottoman and Gastronomy.
Les bonheurs de ma cuisine juive dans la tradition s=E9pharade :
la cuisine jud=E9o-espagnole emport=E9e au XVe si=E8cle d'Espagne vers l'Empire Ottoman traditionnelle aujourd'hui encore =E0 Bruxelles, =E0 Paris, =E0 New  
York, =E0 J=E9rusalem /
A Rivka Cohen. Aix-en-Provence : Edisud, 2000
French  238 p. :

This was just a quick search. I suspect that there are papers
because Turkey has an active food history community.
There's actual more there than one might think. I didn't even
try the Balkans.

Johnnae llyn Lewis   Johnna Holloway

Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 21:26:21 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] SCA-Period Ottoman Cookbook
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I found a marvelous art book while in the UK.
Turks : A Journey of a Thousand Years, 600-1600
it goes along nicely with the other books I already cited.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 00:04:20 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period Greek Recipes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Where I need help is on the Greek course. I am thinking about serving
> souvlaki on pita's, but would like to find some resources for this.  Any
> good suggestions for books or online resources for period versions of
> this? I have found a few web sites with some information, but would love
> to get a book on period Greek cuisine, if such exists. I know about "The
> Deipnosophists" but from what I can see there are several books - but
> which one would be what I want?

It's not exactly a Greek recipe, but while I was
working on Rumpolt, he includes a "Turkish"
recipe for grilled mutton marinated in onion
.
19. Nimm sch?ne weisse Zwibeln/ und schneidt sie
gar klein/ und reib den Braten wohl damit/
auch mit Salz/ lasz es miteinander ein Stund oder
zwo liegen/ oder gar uber Nacht/ mach
darnach ein h?lzern Spiese von einer h??leu
Stauden/ steck die Braten daran/ und brat sie
geschwindt hinweg/ so werden sie gut und wohl
geschmack. Auf diese manier zugericht/
essen die T?rken gern.

Von Hammel
19. Take fair white onions/ and cut them
completely small/ and rub the roast well with
them/ also with salt/ let it lay together an hour
or two/ or overnight/ then make a wood spit from
a hazel bush/ stick the roast on it/ and roast it
quickly away/ like this it becomes good and well
tasting.  In this manner prepared/ the Turks like
to eat.

Ranvaig

Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:36:44 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] From Turkish Cuisine
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Turkish Cultural Foundation has a website up
on Turkish Cuisine"

There's a couple of interesting articles on Ottoman foods and drinks:

Refined Tastes in a Refined Place: Eating Habits in the Ottoman Palace
During the 15th-17th Centuries by Arif Bilgin (heavily footnoted)

http://www.turkish-cuisine.org/english/article_details.php?p_id=20&Pages=Articles

Turkish Cuisine in the 11th Century by Res,at Gen? (also footnoted)

http://www.turkish-cuisine.org/english/article_details.php?p_id=18&Pages=Articles

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2008 09:47:22 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkish Cuisine ebook now available!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>, 	"Order of
	the Laurel - Restricted Access"	<sca-laurels at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	atlantianlaurels <AtlantianLaurels at yahoogroups.com>, 	"Order of the
	Pearls" <pearls at atlantia.sca.org>

 A number of you wanted information about Dame Hauviette d'Anjou's ebook on
Turkish Cuisine. It is now available, and she has sent out the following
announcement.  At this point, if you order from the web, there is no SCA
discount because verifying your membership would be very difficult.  So, if
you want a discount, you should purchase your copy at an event.  However, be
aware that the downloaded version is only $19.  For those in Atlantia, I am
making an effort to have some available at Twelfth Night.

Kiri

Good Day everyone!
As you know I have been recreating food from history for dinners, banquets
and unique events for years. Some time ago I decided to make my work
available to the public by creating a one of a kind historical cookbook. I'm
pleased to announce that my long awaited interactive electronic cookbook is
now available!

"Celebration at the Sarayi: Reliving a feast in the palace of Suleyman the
Magnificent" is a multi-media, interactive cookbook  where you can travel
back in time and relive a feast at Istanbul's famed Topkapi Palace. You will
hear the storyteller's descriptions of the palace milieu, see a backdrop of
historical images, review the original historical sources and watch me
demonstrate techniques for dishes I adapted for a modern kitchen. Then you
can print out the recipes and head to the kitchen to create your own
fabulous feast!

*This multi sensory experience can be found on CD (only $24) or as a down
loadable PDF file (only $19) online at
**www.rencuisine.com*<http://www.rencuisine.com/>
*(go to the Ebooks tab on the left side of the screen) or **
www.tecpublishing.com* <http://www.tecpublishing.com/>

Want to get the book and save cash or raise funds for your group? You can
also become an affiliate (free and simple) and sell the book from your
website, earning a 15 percent commission on each sale.

Retail book sales- if you are interested in carrying the ebook in a retail
setting, please contact Tom Chmielewski at
tom at tecpublising.com<http://us.mc580.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=tom at tecpublising.com>for details.

See an excerpt from "Celebration at the Serayi" online at
www.rencuisine.com and
www.tecpublishing.com .

Look forward to more unique culinary experiences with Chef Channon!

Channon Mondoux
Renaissance Cuisine

Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:24:58 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pilgrimage & other
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I got some copies of Channon's ebook on disk (Celebrations at the Sarayi)
so that is a nice addition.

Devra >>>

I encourage you guys to purchase this book...it is absolutely wonderful.
And that's not just because she's my friend.  It is exceedingly well done,
featuring historic information about the time frame of the book, original
and redacted recipes, demos of techniques needed to do particular things and
a source listing for ingredients.  Unfortunately, the response to the book
has been very poor, so we're hoping that that will improve.

Kiri

Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 22:36:34 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

<<< Are there any period culinary sources
that are specifically 16th century Turkish? >>>

You need to communicate with Mistress Hauviette d?Anjou, who did a
class on this topic at Pennsic.  I believe she is on this list.

Brighid ni Chiarain
-------

Her book is
Celebration at the Sarayi; a culinary journey back in time - $24 (CD)

Channon Mondoux. Includes illustrated audio introductions to each  
section of the ecookbook. The author has resurrected recipes from the  
16th century Ottoman Empire and adapted them for the modern kitchen,  
in easy to print out and use form.  Yet it's not simply measurements  
& cooking times. She relates the stories behind these dishes, gleans  
from observations of travelers of the time, and from translations of  
historical texts. Includes video demonstrations of techniques to guide  
you, in an easy to navigate multi-media PDF file. TEC Publishing

Devra has copies.

Her website is here: http://www.rencuisine.com/

***

Also check out http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/

Teaching 15th and 16th century Ottoman cuisine

* Kingdom of An Tir Culinary Symposium, November 14-16:  I taught 2  
classes - one history and one hands-on. The event was held in the  
Barony of Dragon's Laire at a lovely rustic camp on a lovely misty  
lake outside Belfair WA. I had a large attendence of enthusiastic  
participants, more than I had anticipated.

In the hands-on class, over 12 students and I cooked Chicken soup with  
egg-lemon sauce, Ottoman-style saffron rice, and Sefer?eliyya, lamb  
with fresh quinces, dried apricots, and almonds.

by Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 07:55:56 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

If you go to http://www.tecpublishing.com/Publishing.html you will find
information about Dame Hauviette's CD on Turkish cooking.  I have cooked
several feasts using many of the recipes on this CD.  There's even a period
version of stuffed grapevine leaves!  Not to mention a Turkish version of a
baklava precursor.

If you have any questions, give me a holler.  I worked with Hauviette as she
developed the CD, as well as testing some of the recipes...one of our big
tests was to cook several of them for an event.

Kiri

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:09:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

--- Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com> schrieb am So, 21.3.2010:
<<< I have been asked to cook a feast that is far out of my comfort zone and range of knowledge. I am hoping that the good gentles
here can assist me in beginning my quest. Are there any period
culinary sources that are specifically 16th century Turkish? >>>

It's not specifically 16th century, but Marianna Yerasimos' "500 Years of Ottoman Cuisine" (Boyut Publishing Group, and I'missing the rest of the data right now) is pretty good. She identifies her sources and while much of her data is seventeenth and eighteenth century, some of it is period. Her recipe redactions also look viable, though unfortunately she doesn't give verbatim quotes from the sources 

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a very common book. I had to ILL it from Bavaria.

Giano

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 19:49:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

--- Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com> schrieb am So, 21.3.2010:
> So does Ottman = Turkish?

As close as we can get, probably. I know of no other culinary documents for people who spoke Turkic languages, and it’s unlikely there is any evidence for anything like a 'native Turk' cuisine except in the broadest of term (nomadic central Asian foods with luxury dishes influenced by Chinese and Persian sty?les9. Ottoman cuisine is the cuisine of a Turkic-speaking multinational Empire whose capital, at least (if not its heartland) is located in today's Turkey. Influences are widely different, from Mediterranean Greek to Persian, but it's as close as you're liable to get.

Giano

Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:21:49 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

Yerasimos can be ordered
http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK964263UF600

I bought it several years ago.

Johnnae

On Mar 21, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Volker Bach wrote:
<<< It's not soecifically 16th century, but Marianna Yerasimos' "500  
Years of Ottoman Cuisine" (Boyut Publishing Group, and I'missing  
the rest of the data right now) is pretty good. She identifies her  
sources and while much of her data is seventeenth and eighteenth  
century, some of it is period. Her recipe redactions also look  
viable, though unfortunately she doesn't give verbatim quotes from  
the sources >>>

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a very common book. I had to ILL  
it from Bavaria.

Giano

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:32:06 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

Serena da Riva wrote:
<<< I have been asked to cook a feast that is far out of my comfort zone
and range of knowledge. I am hoping that the good gentles here can
assist me in beginning my quest. Are there any period culinary sources
that are specifically 16th century Turkish? >>>

ONE
I translated all of Stephane Yerasimoss book, A 
la table du Grand Turc, into English. He included 
42 recipes. 24 are from Mehmet Shirvanis mid15th 
c cookbook. 16 from Shirvanis translation of 
alBaghdadi, and they are NOT identical to those 
in the original. And 3 which were cooked in the 
16th c but for which no period recipe survives, 
so Yerasimos used
one from 1764, one from 1844, and one that is 
traditional...i found a version of the last one 
supposedly from an early 17th c Moghul cookbook 
(the recipe is Persian in origin).

Yerasimos died in 2005 and I have been trying 
without luck to get permission from the French 
publisher of Yerasimos to publish my translation, 
but they have not answered any of my queries. So I 
cannot put it on the web as that would violate 
copyright.

TWO
I have the info from a 15th/16th c. Ottoman feast I cooked
http://home.earthlink.net/~al-tabbakhah/2007_Feasts/Fall%20Investiture%20Feast/Intro_Menu.html

Most recipes from 15th and 16th c. sources, with 
a few reconstructed from descriptions, such as the bulghur

FIRST COURSE
Choice of SOUP:
* Buyresiyye (kadin tuzlugu shorbasi) - Meatball Soup with Barberries
* Terbiyeli Tavuk Chorbasi - Chicken Soup with 
Small Noodles and Egg-Lemon Sauce
Mant? - Seasoned ground lamb in thin dough 
wrappers, steamed and served with 
garlic-sumac-yogurt sauce

SECOND COURSE
Flat Bread (purchased, NOT pita)
Fresh Pickled Cucumbers
Rose Petal Jam (purchased)
Merserem - Lamb and Chard in Herbed Yogurt
Mahmudiyye - Chicken and Apricots with Noodles and Almonds
Kachkul-i kabak - Spiced Stewed Gourds
Four Colors of Rice: White, Yellow, Red, and Green
Bulghur with Chestnuts, cinnamon, and ginger
Beverage Syrups - Morello Cherry and Mulberry

DESSERT COURSE
Sheker Burek - Almond-paste-topped yeasted "cookies"
Senbuse Mukallele - Fried almond-paste-filled pastries
Muhallebi - Delicate Rose-Scented Rice Flour and Milk Pudding
Zerde = "Yellow" - Rice Pudding with Saffron and Nuts
Turkish Coffee (Peet's, of course), with sugar and Splenda on the side

THREE
Hans Dernschwam describes Ottoman food, and gives 
a few with details, however, he begins his 
descriptions by saying the the Turks eat poor 
miserable food, and suggests during his 
descriptions that he was not fond of much of it. 
So while I am translating him, I wouldnt exactly 
put my complete faith in his versions.

FOUR
And I have a few from other sources.

Feel free to contact me off list for more info.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 14:41:51 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

Serena wrote:
> So does Ottoman = Turkish?

For the 16th century, and for a culture in contact with Europe, 
pretty much yes.

Also, I have noticed that in the SCA people, including those with 
Middle Eastern personae, commonly say ''Turkish'' when they mean 
Ottoman.

The Seljuks were Turkish, but we don't have any of their recipes.
Many of the Mamluks were Turkish, but the only cookbooks we have from 
the period of their rule are Arabic.
There were many other Turks of significance within SCA period, but 
few people in the SCA seem to be aware of them.
Even A Soup for the Qan is primarily Turkic, and not particularly 
Mongol, with the author being Turkic, and, frankly, the majority of 
the Mongol administration being Turkic, not Mongol.

But for the 16th c., Turkish is most likely to be Ottoman.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:26:11 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 5:41 PM, <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:
<<< Even A Soup for the Qan is primarily Turkic, and not particularly Mongol,
with the author being Turkic, and, frankly, the majority of the Mongol
administration being Turkic, not Mongol.
--
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita >>>

But....the recipes in Soup are what was being served at the Mongol
Court...so in that sense it is Mongol.  Just as in Europe, the foods that
were eaten by the Court were the ones that got published.  And because of
the serious trading among the countries along the Silk Road, these were what
was used.  No, not by the everyday "Mongol on the Street"...but then the
dishes that are served at the White House are not what "Joe the Plumber"
eats.

Kiri

Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 21:40:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

I assume that there is more on Turkish eating and drinking in the numerous reports of travelers to the holy land, of ambassadors and in chronicles.

For instance, there is a "Neuwe Chronica turkischer Nation", printed in 1590, which is up online at www.digitale-sammlungen.de. Among other things, there is a report about a wedding.
http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0002/bsb00029261/images/

?Den 23. May zu Morgen sind die Vezier vnd Hof Officier zum Patscha zusammen kommen (sind Gey? vnd Schaaff F??/ vnd essens die T?rcken wie bey vns ein Eyer im Schmaltz) solche Spei? hat der Breutigam seiner Schwieger der Sultanin selber auch geschickt/ welche dem Breutigam vnd der Braut widerumb 150. andere Speisen bringen lassen (...)?. (p. 535; BSB-Pdf 546)

Does anybody recognise the dish which is mentioned here and which is called "Patscha"?

As for the drinking, a late 16th c. report of a dinner during an audience says that they drank water mixed with rosewater and sugar (printed in the Glasgow Hakluyt ed., vol. VI, p. 98ss.)

George Sandys (early 17th c.): "their usual drink is pure water, yet they have sundry sherbets ... some made of sugar and lemons, some of violets, and the like, whereof some are mixed with amber, which the richer sort dissolve thereinto. The honey of Scio is excellent for that purpose and they make another of the juice of rainsins." (quoted from the notes on a travelogue).

E.

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:26:06 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

emilio wrote:
<<< I assume that there is more on Turkish eating and drinking in the 
numerous reports of travellers to the holy land, of ambassadors and 
in chronicles. >>>

First, what was eaten in the Holy Land, and what Turks, i.e., the 
upper Ottoman echelons, would be rather different. The Holy Land ate 
Arabic food.

Second, since most ambassadors, etc. were (a) not usually 
particularly excited about eating foreign food, (b) not familiar with 
what they were eating, and often gave faulty descriptions, and (c) 
not necessarily particularly interested in talking about food in 
detail and gave sketchy reports.

<<< For instance, there is a "Neuwe Chronica t?rkischer Nation", printed 
in 1590, which is up online at www.digitale-sammlungen.de. Among 
other things, there is a report about a wedding.
http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0002/bsb00029261/images/

?Den 23. May zu Morgen sind die Vezier vnd Hof Officier zum Patscha 
zusammen kommen (sind Gey? vnd Schaaff F??/ vnd essens die T?rcken 
wie bey vns ein Eyer im Schmaltz) solche Spei? hat der Breutigam 
seiner Schwieger der Sultanin selber auch geschickt/ welche dem 
Breutigam vnd der Braut widerumb 150. andere Speisen bringen lassen 
(...)?. (p. 535; BSB-Pdf 546) >>>

I'm not monolingual, I know French and Bahasa Indonesia and am 
learning Arabic, but I am afraid my German is sketchy. I can 
translate things given enough time, but i'm feeling lazy and would 
prefer you to translate. Also a lot of special characters do not come 
through in USAmerican e-mail. I can figure out some of them, but I am 
not so sure of some others. Please write them out (e.g., u with 
umlaut can be written ue).

<<< Does anybody recognise the dish which is mentioned here and which is 
called "Patscha"? >>>

A Pasha is an official... This seems to say that on the morning of 
May 23 the Vizier and court officer came together with the Pasha... 
and then something about eggs cooked in fat. This may be the dish 
called Cilber, although the name isn't given, which is eggs and 
onions cooked in fat and usually served with yogurt.

Please translate the text so those among us who don't know German can 
understand.

<<< As for the drinking, a late 16th c. report of a dinner during an 
audience says that they drank water mixed with rosewater and sugar 
(printed in the Glasgow Hakluyt ed., vol. VI, p. 98ss.)

George Sandys (early 17th c.): "their usual drink is pure water, yet 
they have sundry sherbets ... some made of sugar and lemons, some of 
violets, and the like, whereof some are mixed with amber, which the 
richer sort dissolve thereinto. The honey of Scio is excellent for 
that purpose and they make another of the juice of rainsins." 
(quoted from the notes on a travelogue). >>>

Travelers seem to have liked the various sharbat (its plural, 
singular is sharab), I guess sugar goes over well. But reports I have 
read (there are quite a few quoted in Stephane Yerasimos, A la table 
du Grand Turc) give inadequate descriptions of dishes (a dish of 
roast chicken with rice... not enough for reconstruction).

Hans Dernschwam (who I am struggling to translate, he uses almost 
phonetic Bohemian German quite different from what I learned in my 
semester of modern German) gives a little more description than most 
embassies, but usually not enough to recreate dishes. Plus he begins 
his discussion of food in Kostantiniyye by saying, "The Turks eat 
poor miserable food..."
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:23:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

 at Urtatim

<< First, what was eaten in the Holy Land, and what Turks, i.e., the 
upper Ottoman echelons, would be rather different.  >>

During the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, several people from Italy, 
Germany, France etc. travelled to the Holy Land, at least some of them passed
by Turkey and reported on local customs. It is these sources I had in mind.
In addition, there are soldiers, who were captured by the turks and who later
on wrote books on what they saw and what they experienced.
Their reports now and then include snippets on food.

<< Second, since most ambassadors, etc. were (a) not usually 
particularly excited about eating foreign food, (b) not familiar with 
what they were eating, and often gave faulty descriptions, and (c) 
not necessarily particularly interested in talking about food in 
detail and gave sketchy reports. >>

Thanks for pointing to the dangers of using these reports. However, do we 
actually have a picture of what these reports say about food habits? 
Please let me know.

<<< http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0002/bsb00029261/images/
<< Den 23. May zu Morgen sind die Vezier vnd Hof Officier zum Patscha 
zusammen kommen (sind Geyss vnd Schaaff Fuess/ vnd essens die Tuercken 
wie bey vns ein Eyer im Schmaltz) solche Speiss hat der Breutigam 
seiner Schwieger der Sultanin selber auch geschickt/ welche dem 
Breutigam vnd der Braut widerumb 150. andere Speisen bringen lassen 
(...) >>. (p. 535; BSB-Pdf 546)

Please translate the text >>>

On the morning of the 23rd of May the Veziers and all the officers of the court
came together in order to eat / for Patscha (these are goat and sheep trotters/ the Turks eat them like we at home eat "Eyer im Schmaltz". The groom has sent 
this dish to his future mother in law, the wife of the Sultan, as well, who again sent 150 different dishes to the groom and the bride ...

<< Does anybody recognise the dish which is mentioned here and which is 
called "Patscha"? >>

<<< A Pasha is an official... This seems to say that on the morning of 
May 23 the Vizier and court officer came together with the Pasha... >>>

The word is not "Pasha", it is "Patscha". Some sources I have found in the 
meantime suggest, that it might mean something like 'trotter, paw', in some 
more modern sources there is also "patscha gueni", a day in the wedding
ceremony. But from the text it seem clear that "Patscha" is a dish.

<< Plus he begins his discussion of food in Kostantiniyye by 
saying, "The Turks eat poor miserable food..." >>

The consequence is not, to leave these sources aside, but rather
to try to take into account their specific point of view and to compare
different sources.

E.

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

For instance, there is a "Neuwe Chronica t?rkischer Nation", printed
in 1590, which is up online at www.digitale-sammlungen.de. Among
other things, there is a report about a wedding.
http://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/~db/0002/bsb00029261/images/

?Den 23. May zu Morgen sind die Vezier vnd Hof Officier zum Patscha
zusammen kommen (sind Gey? vnd Schaaff F??/ vnd essens die T?rcken
wie bey vns ein Eyer im Schmaltz) solche Spei? hat der Breutigam
seiner Schwieger der Sultanin selber auch geschickt/ welche dem
Breutigam vnd der Braut widerumb 150. andere Speisen bringen lassen
(...)?. (p. 535; BSB-Pdf 546)

The 23rd of May in the morning did the Vizier and Court officer come
together to the Pasha (there was goat and sheep feet/ and eaten by the
Turks as by us an egg in fat) such a dish did the bridegroom to his in-law
the Sultana himself also gave / while the Bridegroom and the Bride had
around 150 other dishes brought...

The question marks are 'geyss' and 'fuss'.  That funny character is an
s-set.  The last little bit not given above tells that the cost was a
purse of 1500 Ducats.  Does this dish of hooves make any sense?  Was it
perhaps a gelatinized dish?

Perhaps the reference to an egg in fat meant that it was common as fried
eggs to the German people.

Love the references to the clothes :)

Katherine

Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 18:00:31 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

I wrote:
<< Second, ...most ambassadors, etc. were (a) not usually
particularly excited about eating foreign food, (b) not familiar with
what they were eating, and often gave faulty descriptions, and (c)
not necessarily particularly interested in talking about food in
detail and gave sketchy reports. >>

Emilio remarked:
<<< Thanks for pointing to the dangers of using these reports. However, do we actually have a picture of what these reports say about food habits? Please let me know. >>>

Here are my own poor miserable translations from 
Stephane/Stefanos Yerasimos, A la table du Grand 
Turc. Please pardon my errors. These were in 15th 
and 16th c. French.

-----

Bertrandon de la Broquiere, the gentleman carver 
(ecuyer tranchant) of Philippe the Good, Duke of 
Burgundy, who visited Edirne in March 1433, was 
the sole witness of a meal with the Ottoman 
Sultan. Murad II dined with the ambassador of the 
Duke of Milan, a lord from Bosnia, and some 
Wallachian gentlemen:

"And before the aforesaid lord had come in the 
aforesaid place, into our midst were brought at 
least one hundred bowls of tin and in each one 
was a piece of mutton and some rice (?) Then the 
aforesaid lord sat down, and when he was seated 
(?) food was brought to him, and a cloth of silk 
placed before him. And then a piece of vermeil 
leather completely round and quite thin/fine was 
placed before him, in place of a tablecloth, for 
the custom is such that he eats only on such 
cloths of leather. And then they bore meat to him 
on two great golden platters, and as soon as he 
was served those who were appointed forth brought 
the bowls that I mentioned above, which were 
carried to this place, and they carried and 
served it to the people who were there, that is 
from 4 to 4, one bowl, and had within some very 
light rice and a piece of mutton without a bit of 
bread nor anything to drink."

From Le Voyage d'outre-mer de Bertrandon del la 
Broquiere, premier ecuyer trenchant et conseiller 
de Phillipe le Bon, duc de Bourgogne, published 
and annotated by Ch. Schefer, Paris, 1892, p. 
190-192.

-----
Foreign ambassadors were also invited to this 
meal when they came to present their letters of 
faith in the sultan, thanks to whom we have 
several descriptions. The oldest is that of 
Cornelius de Schepper, ambassador of Ferdinand of 
Austria who presented himself to the Divan in 
June 1533:

"After we had saluted the (pashas) like brothers 
and friends of the king, a stool was brought in 
the middle between us and here upon this a great 
round platter of silver in the form of a little 
table, having a bit of concavity in the center 
and at the extremities; bread was brought which 
was placed upon the aforesaid platter, near to 
each of us. Afterwards a cloth of silk of diverse 
colors covered the breast of the pashas and 
another upon our own. Following this washing was 
given first to Ibrahim, after to Ayas, to Cassim, 
to Lord Hierosme [Hieronymus Laski, the first 
ambassador] and finally to me, Cornille 
Scepperus. Little round dishes were brought, such 
as are customarily filled with vinegar when 
eating fish in Germany, some of those dishes 
containing cucumbers preserved in vinegar and 
some rose preserves. Each of us was given a 
little napkin, and to every two of us a knife, 
and to each his own spoon which was of wood: 
whereupon Ibrahim Pasha declared to us that the 
Turks used no other spoons but those of wood. 
After that a dish was brought full of flesh of 
hens which were divided and cold, and when 
Ibrahim Pasha gave us the command to eat: which I 
did, even though my appetite was quite small. The 
said dish removed, another was brought full of 
diverse birds; then another of whole hens; and 
when some dish was brought, the preceding was 
always removed. Afterwards, other courses was 
brought of rice with lemons, rice cooked with 
pomegranates, others with sugar, and finally 
still others, and then drink was brought to 
Ibrahim Pasha in a vessel of turquoise stone 
which was on a platter of silver. While he drank, 
we and the pashas remained seated. Next, drink 
was brought to the pashas and to us, in a cup of 
silver, which was on a platter similarly of 
silver; it was the sweet water which is called 
sherbet."

From Missions diplomatiques de Corneille 
Duplicius de Schepper, dit Scepperus, ambassadour 
(?) by M. le baron Saint-Genois (?) and G.-A. 
Yssel de Schepper, Memoires de l'Academie royale 
des sciences, des letters, et des beauxarts de 
Belgique, vol. XXX, Brussels, 1854, p. 170.

-----
Jerome Maurand, Priest of Antibes, who 
accompanied the French envoy Polin de la Garde, 
received at the palace in August 1544, was 
entitled to the dinner served to the attendants 
of the ambassadors:

"First from one of the portals which are on a 
level with the place [courtyard?] (?) came forth 
a Turk, who I think to be like a butler at home, 
dressed in green velvet embroidered with gold, 
who had in his hands a baton; two Turks followed 
behind him: the one carried a very handsome pile 
carpet, as long as 15 or 16 hands, as wide as 
six; the other carried a very beautiful long and 
wide table cloth of cotton, with a longiera 
similar to the table cloth but less wide. The one 
who carried the carpet spread it out all along 
the ground: the other spread upon it the 
tablecloth and put all around the longiera. Then 
followed two other Turks, bearing a great basket 
full of quite white flat breads, and in his hand 
a box of very lovely wooden spoons; the flat 
breads were put in order on the table cloth, 
followed by the spoons. Two other Turks followed, 
richly dressed in silk; one held a great glass 
container with a capacity of ten pints, filled 
with a water made artificially of sugar, pears, 
and other fruits, which is a thing very good and 
delicious to drink and quite substantial; the 
other had in his hands two very beautiful beakers 
of clay, made as those which come from Pisa or 
Montaldo. Next came, fourteen quite young boys, 
two by two, vested in floral brocade, belted with 
sashes of gold: they had their hair arranged on 
their foreheads, such as is worn by the women of 
Provence; and on their heads they wore a very 
pretty yellow bonnet pointed on top. The first 
two carried two dishes of cooked yellow rice and 
two of white rice without broth, as long as 
vermicelli; the two following carried two dishes 
each, two of semolina with carved chicken, and 
two of fritters with sugar. Two others carried 
each two plates of cut up roast chicken; two more 
each carried two plates of roast quails and 
partridges, also cut up; the last two carried two 
plates of pistachios preserved in sugar. And all 
these dishes were placed in an instant upon the 
tablecloth. One set the gentlemen to dine all 
around, in the Turkish fashion; the one kneeling, 
the other seated on the ground, as best he was 
able. When one wished to drink, he who held the 
glass jar of artificial water and the cups, 
giving to each a full cup and not more."

From Itineraire de Jerome Maurand d'Antibes a 
Constantinople (1544), Italian text published for 
the first time with an introduction and a 
translation [into French] by Leon Dorez, Paris, 
1901, p. 219-223.

My Note: The item identified as longiera is a 
sort of napkin of fine linen, embroidered with 
silk and gold, that covered the laps of multiple 
diners. Apparently diners often had three napkin 
like items: one like a towel dangling over their 
right shoulder, a small one for wiping the 
fingers, and the long multiple diner lap cover. 
From what I can tell they often all have the same 
name, although i've found two different names 
applied to the same items...
-----

The documents available from the 15th and 16th 
centuries show us an augmentation and a 
diversification of culinary items, but, at the 
same time, a certain conservatism tied perhaps to 
a stricter adherence to religious precepts. We 
have little information to follow the evolution 
of the culinary tastes of the sultans and the 
outside testimonies remain rarities. The notable 
exception is the narrative of Albertus Bobovius 
[Woyciech Bobowski], Polish by birth, who spent 
19 years at Topkapi, between 1638 and 1657 
[serving sultans Murad IV, Ibrahim I and Mehmed 
IV], as a page renamed Ali Ufki Bey, who 
described the meal of the sultan:

"The Great Lord eats alone or in the hasodah (his 
private apartments) or in the garden. The meats 
that are served him ordinarily every day are 
mutton boiled or roasted in small pieces as large 
as larks, sausages of spit roasted mutton, a 
couple of roast pigeons, a hen cooked with rice 
or lamb roasted in the oven in its season, sweet 
pastes of all sorts and different compositions of 
which the best is worth nothing to our taste. 
They call these dishes baklavah or ma'muniyye, 
rice cooked with milk called soudlu ash, rice 
pounded with sugar named muhallebi, and after he 
is filled with all sorts of drugs which he eats 
without drinking, he is presented a large cupful 
of hoschab or water of grapes, of peaches, of 
apricots, or of cornelians, or of another sort of 
fruit."
In spite of the biased character of the 
description and the constancy of certain dishes, 
the tastes as well as the order of the meals 
seems to be noticeably modified since the 15th 
century.

Quote from Albertus Bobovius, Topkapi, relation 
du serail du Grand Seigneur, edition presented 
and annotated by Annie Berthier & Stephane 
Yerasimos, Sindbad/Actes Sud, coll. "La 
Biblioteque Turque", Paris-Arles, 1999, p. 
110-111.

-----

One century later, Bobowski/Bobovius/Ali Ufki Bey 
described the meal of the subaltern pages:

"The ordinary food of the pages? of the greater 
and of the lesser chamber of the great seraglio 
consists of pottages/soups and meats; for the 
meat, they are served nearly every day of the 
same and prepared in the same way that they call 
souyousch of flesh of mutton without boiling; for 
those that are pottages/soups, they are often 
diversified, for sometimes bodday chourbasy or 
pottage/soup of wheat, sometimes of zyryab or 
pottage/soup made of flour and raisins of Corinth 
[dried currants] and saffron, sometimes of zerdeh 
or pottage/soup made of rice, honey, and saffron, 
and sometimes of ekshy ash or pottage/soup made 
of rice, raisins of Corinth, and honey; they eat 
two times a day, namely at nine hours in the 
morning and at three hours after noon, and at 
each meal they are served a dish of meat and a 
vast basin of one of the sorts of pottage/soup 
here above."

Ibid, p. 49.

-------
Comments in square brackets are mine. In the 
final quote, I have both pottage and soup, 
because often these are thick and substantial, 
like Persian aush, and more a pottage than a soup 
which could have ingredients in a broth. But 
since I am not quite certain which these were, I 
haven't yet made the decision which word to use.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:24:16 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pre-1600 recipes for "ancient grains"

Bogda Czorba- Wheat berry soup

2 pounds beef, lamb or chicken bones -- for broth (3 to 5)
1 1/3 pounds onion, garlic, celery, carrot--mixed for broth, 1/2-inch cubes
OR 2-3 tablespoons of good beef bouillon
10 2/3 cups water (or packaged beef stock if not making from scratch) (8 to
10)
1 1/3 tablespoons olive oil
1 cup wheat berries, soaked overnight
1 1/3 teaspoons salt
4 teaspoons additional if needed for flavor beef bouillon
2/3 cup red wine vinegar
vinegar to taste, salt and pepper as well.

1.    Roast beef bones on low for 1-2 hours with onion, garlic, celery,
carrot. Add water to cover and bring to a simmer for 35-45 minutes.

2.    Remove bones and add wheat berries, salt, pepper, bouillon and stir.
Simmer 1-2 hours adding stock as necessary to produce a thick pudding like
soup.

3.    Add back any meat that is available from the bones. Season with
vinegar and salt and pepper to taste.

4.    Serve hot.

Servings: 8
Preparation Time: 3 minutes

Notes:  Item Grain.  One boils wheat in a meat broth from mutton like a mues
(pudding) one calls it "bogda czorba" [transl. note: Turkish "Bogdhai" is
"wheat", "czorba" means "soup"]H.D.

Soup features prominently in Turkish cuisine, this one is no exception.
Traditionally this would be made with mutton but here I've chosen to use
beef as it is much more accessible to the average person. Of course you are
free to use mutton or lamb if you are able to find it readily.

Cuisine: Period Turkish

Categories: 2008 ME Feast, 2010 ME Feast, Periods soups & stews

Source: Channon Mondoux of Renaissance Cuisine--Celebration at the Sarayi
ebook

Evidently there are a couple of different kinds of wheatberries, so they
made need to soak a little longer.  Also, in making this for an event, I
used crockpots to cook it...which of course stretched the cooking time out
to all day.  And it worked very well.  I found that it needed more salt and
pepper and a little more vinegar...your taste may vary.  As the soup bones I
found didn't have much in the way of meat on them, I added some bottom round
cut into chunks where it says to add the meat back.  I also made sure I got
the marrow out of the bones...this added a lot of richness to the soup.

Kiri

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:37:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

< I still think it refers to the Pasha (cf. Katherine's translation) >

<< Urtatim and Katherine,

in the work quoted, the form for the title ("Pasha") is either "Basscha"
or "Bassa" (like in other contemporary sources), I haven't seen "Patscha"
in any place to refer to the office or the person. >>

I think I concur with Emil after further reading about the word Pasha. 
But it wouldn't be the first time I've found inconsistent spellings in a
single book.

Katherine

Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sixteenth Century Turkish

Here is another source: 
Guillaume Postel: Des histoires orientales et principalement des Turkes ... Paris 1575.

The PDF is available at:

http://www.mdz-nbn-resolving.de/urn/resolver.pl?urn=urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb10208790-0

In a small glossary (PDF # 43) he mentions: Iugurt, Tsorba and Pilau.

On page 104 (PDF #155) he describes the dinner room and on page 105-106 (PDF 156-157) some food and drink, e.g. frozen "serobet".

On the title page, one reads: "Guillaume Postel Cosmopolite, deux fois de la retourn? et veritablement inform?" (Guillaume Postel, cosmopolite, who has been there two times and who really knows about what he writes)

It seems that Postel wrote two other works on Turkey, but so far I did not find them online.

(Back to lurking.)

E.

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 17:04:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Thirteenth Century Turkish

Nevin Halici: Sufi Cuisine. Translated by ?mit Hussein. Foreword by Claudia Roden. London: SAQI 2005.

As far as I can see, she relies mainly on food mentioned in the work of 13th century sufi mystic Rumi (Mevlana), trying her best to recreate recipes that are in spirit with the traditional food of Konya (where Rumi died). On page 21-22 and 43-44, the author explains the different 'layers' of sources (from quotations from the work of Rumi to Konya food lore handed down by "the old ladies who are keeping the tradition alive").

It is a beautiful book and an interesting book from what I can say after half an hour's reading. Includes a three pages bibliography. 

E.

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:13:12 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Thirteenth Century Turkish

emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> wrote:
<<< Nevin Halici: Sufi Cuisine.

Hussein Umit, editor
Ahmet Efe, illustrator
Foreword by Claudia Roden.
London: Saqi Books, 2005.
ISBN-10: 0863565816
ISBN-13: 978-0863565816

As far as I can see, she relies mainly on food mentioned in the work 
of 13th century sufi mystic Rumi (Mevlana), trying her best to 
recreate recipes that are in spirit with the traditional food of 
Konya (where Rumi died). On page 21-22 and 43-44, the author 
explains the different 'layers' of sources (from quotations from the 
work of Rumi to Konya food lore handed down by "the old ladies who 
are keeping the tradition alive").

It is a beautiful book and an interesting book from what I can say 
after half an hour's reading. Includes a three pages bibliography. >>>

A blog I dip into from time to time wrote about this book:
http://maviboncuk.blogspot.com/2005/10/book-sufi-cuisine-by-nevin-halici.html

Bear in mind that the recipes in Halici's book are **inspired by** 
what she read. They are not actual 13th c. **Seljuk** period (not 
just any old Turkish) recipes.

And they are not just any Seljuk, but from the Seljuks of Rum (i.e., 
Anatolia, which was formerly in the hands of the Rum, i.e., the 
Byzantines).

That famous poet was called "Rumi", not because it was his name - 
because it wasn't - but because he lived in Rum.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 15:50:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Helva gatherings was Thirteenth Century Turkish

One of the articles that is quoted in the book "Sufi cuisine" (p. 119) we discussed a few minutes ago is:

Irene Melikoff: Le Rituel du Helva. Recherches sur une coutume des corporations de metiers dans la Turquie medievale. 
Islam 39 (1964) 180-191. [all accents left out]

It quotes several old sources mainly from the 13th, 14th and 15th century (including Jelaleddin Rumi, Ibn Batuta, literary sources and others like "'Futuvvetname", collections of regulations among guilds of craftsmen, if I am not mistaken) which show that Helva gatherings were an old ritual mainly of initiation, e.g. among craftsmen. Some of the descriptions include the ingredients of preparing helva, the stages of preparation, the roles of the people involved and so forth. 

The article is written in French.

E.

Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 12:58:08 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine

So, after some discussion of book on this list, 
out of curiosity I bought Nevin Halici's "Sufi 
Cuisine", recreations of food mentioned in the 
Seljuk period writings of Rumi.

Many of the recipes are plausible... based on 
what I know of 15th c. Ottoman Turkish cuisine. 
But I wouldn't guarantee they are plausible for 
the earlier cuisine of the Seljuk Turks, who had 
the Suljuk Empire, then the smaller Seljuk 
Sultante of Rum (pronounced room), between 1028 
to 1307.

She also makes a few outrageous claims, such as 
noting that certain foods were found in the 
excavations of the neolithic city Catal Hoyuk 
(?atal H?y?k) then asserting that her recreation 
of a Seljuk dish of bulgur would be exactly the 
same as what was eaten in 7400 BCE in Catal 
Hoyuk. Huh?

(sarcasm on) She also includes such 13th century 
Anatolian favorites as butternut squash and 
zucchini, both New World in origin. (sarcasm off) 
And yet she is careful to exclude other New World 
plants, such as tomatoes, potatoes, bell peppers, 
and chilies from her recipes.

Now a question: she also has a recipe for a dish 
whose central ingredient is modern, 
thick-stalked, crunchy celery. Now celery likely 
originated in the Mediterranean, so it is Old 
World. But I recall discussions that what we know 
today wasn't historically accurate for ancient 
Roman cuisine. And I have also read that the kind 
of celery we mostly use was not developed until 
the 17th century. So it seems that something like 
modern celery would not have been around by the 
13th c. Am I mistaken?
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:25:06 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine

I wrote:
<<< (sarcasm on) She also includes such 13th century
Anatolian favorites as butternut squash and
zucchini, both New World in origin. (sarcasm off)
And yet she is careful to exclude other New World
plants, such as tomatoes, potatoes, bell peppers,
and chilies from her recipes. >>>

Angharad wondered:
<<< Is she suggesting them as substitutes for the period 'gourd'? I've seen this done before (and done it myself, upon occasion). >>>

I would have no problem with that, although getting various edible 
gourds is not that difficult if one lives where there are Middle 
Eastern, South Asian, Southeast Asian, or East Asian markets. And now 
that I have been using them, I find them far preferable in flavor and 
texture to zucchini, which is very watery by comparison.

Nope, she presents butternut squash and zucchini as ancient Seljuk 
vegetables. Now, someone on this list mentioned that perhaps there 
was a translation problem.

Now I recently got another modern Turkish cookbook written in English 
by authors who are both British and Turkish, Classic Turkish Cooking 
by Ghillie and Jonathan Basan (the s is an s with a cedilla, 
pronounced like sh). In that the authors mention the history, 
basically accurate, of a number of now popular items (including the 
New World origins of tomatoes, potatoes, and chilis, but are 
surprisingly reticent on bell peppers). But they present marrow 
(basically British for big zucchini) and zucchini as ancient Turkish 
vegetables.

So I suspect that more than one modern Turkish author of cookbooks 
knows that tomatoes, potatoes, and chilis are New World, but 
apparently doesn't know that squashes are New World in origin.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 16:41:27 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hittite Cookery: a short review

This is not the usual cookbook by any means. What this book offers is  
a selection of recipes (well suggested ingredients and techniques) for  
recreating the breads and meat dishes that might have been eaten by  
the Hittites. Based on material evidence found in archaeological digs,  
mentions in Hittite texts, and experiments into what might have been  
eaten 3500 years ago. Breads are covered on pages 94-169. If you like to experiment with early breads (taking flour, salt, and water and attempting to make a loaf on a hearth) the experiments and recipes will be very interesting. The breads range from barley breads to flat breads to beer breads. There  
are color photos for almost every loaf.  Pages 170-197 are the meat dishes. The volume concludes with an extensive bibliography of mostly Turkish language sources.

From TURKEY
Hittite Cookery
An Experimental Archaelogical Study
Asuman Albayrak, ?lk? M.Solak, Ahmet Uhri
ISBN: 978 9944 0188 1 4
Feb 2009
(Metro Cultural Publications)

Right now the book isn't listed in many libraries, so finding a copy  
may be difficult.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:01:29 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Gourds was Re:  Seljuk/Rumi/Sufi Cuisine

On Wed, Apr 28, 2010 at 4:25 PM,  <lilinah at earthlink.net> wrote:
<< (sarcasm on) She also includes such 13th century
Anatolian favorites as butternut squash and
zucchini, both New World in origin. (sarcasm off)
Is she suggesting them as substitutes for the period 'gourd'? I've seen
This done before (and done it myself, upon occasion).

I would have no problem with that, although getting various edible gourds 
is not that difficult if one lives where there are Middle Eastern, South 
Asian, Southeast Asian, or East Asian markets. And now that I have been using 
them, I find them far preferable in flavor and texture to zucchini, which is 
very watery by comparison. >>

<<< What are they called in the stores?  Any chance you have pictures of them?

We have a variety of grocery stores around, but identifying what I
might want is harder :-)

Eyrny >>>

Commonly calabash, dipper and bottle gourds.  You might also find them under 
the names upo, cucuzza, lau, lauka, tapara, qara, bak, etc., etc., etc. 
They come in shapes and colors similar to New World squash, but can be 
easily differentiated by the stem.  New World squash have deeply ribbed 
stems.  Old World gourds have round stems with very fine, almost 
unnoticeable ribs.  The term gourd can be used to describe all members of 
the cucurbit family (Cucurbitaceae) or true gourds (genus Lagenaria), so 
don't trust that what is called a gourd to be a true gourd.

Bear 

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 12:36:54 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cow butter?

Aelianora wrote:
<<< In real life, I own a small, private, goat dairy. I make cheese,
butter, yogurt and more from the milk.

Goat milk does separate, it just takes longer. I let it sit on the
counter, at room temp (in western WA state, so we are talking anywhere
from 60-70 F), for a day or two and skim off the risen cream. There is
still plenty of cream left in the milk to make a semi-skim cheese.

Some people let the milk sit in their refrigerator, which is safer in
warm climates. I don't bother, because I use raw milk and while it's
sitting on the countertop it's culturing for both the butter and the
cheese.

Goat milk also separates easily with a standard cream separator. I
just haven't bought one yet. >>>

SCA-period Ottoman recipes frequently call for butter in both savory 
and sweet recipes.

Ewes supplied most milk, and sheep in general provided most meat (the 
price of sheep meat was maintained at a low price by Ottoman market 
regulations) and the most common cooking fat, sheep tail fat in the 
Ottoman world.

The palace bought beef only once per year, using it only to make 
bastirma, forerunner of pastrami... and personally I prefer Armenian 
and Turkish bastirma. In SCA period, and into the 17th c., the cattle 
generally came from the Balkans, a long and arduous cattle drive, as 
some literature points out. Cow dairies were not common near 
Kostantiniyye (Constantinople, now Istanbul) until some ways into the 
17th c. And I haven't read anything to suggest that the Palace kept 
its own cow herds, although perhaps they had a some animals.

Of course, since they are from the Palace, the sultan's cooks would 
have access to difficult to get ingredients, brought in from great 
distances, perhaps including cow's milk butter. But this makes me 
wonder if perhaps some of the butter came from ewe's milk, as did 
most of the yogurt and cheeses.

When I cook for large numbers of people I use more reasonable priced 
cow's milk yogurt and butter (gotta keep on budget). For cooking 
classes, however, I often bring a small container (since all I can 
find are small containers) of ewe's milk yogurt and pass it around so 
people can taste the difference between it and cow's milk yogurt. It 
behaves differently in cooking, too, as at least one recipe points 
out, recommending the addition of a little wheat starch to cow's milk 
yogurt so it won't curdle/separate when subjected to high heat, but 
no need to add starch if using ewe's milk.

Now I wonder if I could make butter from ewe's milk. What is 
available in shops is pasteurized... can one still let it separate or 
does the high heat make that impossible? I know I couldn't separate 
it if it were homogenized, but I suspect it isn't homogenized... i'll 
have to check next time i'm in the market.
-- 
Urtatim [that's err-tah-TEEM]
the persona formerly known as Anahita

<the end>

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