Title: grapes-msg
Subject: Period grapes, raisins and currants.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, grape, currant, raisin, fruit, dried, wine

grapes-msg – 7/14/10

Period grapes, raisins and currants.

NOTE: See also the files: wine-msg, apples-msg, fruit-quinces-msg, sapa-msg,  
sugar-msg, vegetables-msg, fruits-msg, vinegar-msg, pomegranates-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Uduido at aol.com
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: SC - Grapes

<< There is a HUGE Concord Grape vine(s)  growing in my new backyard. I was
 told by neighbors that it yielded gallons of grapes last year.
 Does anyone know of anything within period that these could be used for?
 All the talk of cordials/liqueurs has me hoping. Same neighbor made 23
 bottles of wine from them.
 
~Lady Irissa
  >>

 Sorry. The Labrusca (concord) grape variety is New World no questions, do
not pass go, do not collect $200.oo. :-) More appropriate varieties would be
Cabernet Sauvignon, Pinot Grigio, Gewurtzraminer, Zinfandel (questionable),
Sauvignon Blanc, Valipolicella (species unknown to me), Riesling, Chardonnay,
Sangoivese, Chamborcin, Merlot, etc.

The Labrusca grapes (e.g. Concord, Catawba, Niagra) are without exception New
World varieties and were not used in Europe until the late 1800's C.E. They
were then only used (as they still are) for root stock on which to graft the
European varities to prevent further dessicration of the vineyards by the
Phyloxera plague. (Which by the way is currently destroying the vineyards in
California at an alarming rate). 

More to the point the foxy taste of New World labrusca varieties is totally
alien with regards to the flavor of Old World varieties and can not be
satisfactorily substituted under any circunstances.

Lord Ras (Uduido at aol.com)

Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 08:13:57 EST
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Grape juice inquiry

<< 100% white grape juice concentrate is from Niagra grapes >>

Yes, Niagra is a New World Grape and products made from it have that
thoroughly disgusting, IMO, foxy taste that concords and other new world
grapes give wine made from them.

Ras

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 12:01:47 -0600 (CST)
From: jeffrey s heilveil <heilveil at students.uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - There are no old world grapes.

I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
grapes.  From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
predation pressure).  So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
stocks.  (And boy do they love that...)

Sorry for the science,
Bogdan din Brasov

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 14:02:07 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.

At 12:01 PM -0600 12/20/97, jeffrey s heilveil wrote:
>I was going to stay out of this one, but I feel I no longer have a choice.
>It turns out that earlier in our history, a bug, the grape phylloxera, got
>into Europe form the Americas and began decimating the roots of European
>grapes.  From there, all of the European wine industry was in trouble.
>The only way that the were able to continue growing grapes was by
>importing American root stocks, and grafting European varieties on them.
>The reason is that American grapes had been selected such that only
>strains that were resistant to the phylloxera were able to survive (high
>predation pressure).  So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
>grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American root
>stocks.  (And boy do they love that...)

But there is still a legitimate distinction between old world grapes
grafted to new world roots and new world grapes (Concord et. al.). Most
dwarf and semi-dwarf fruit trees are dwarfed by grafting to rootstock of a
related species, I think often quince--but a semi-dwarf golden delicious
bears golden delicious apples, not quinces. I don't know if the root stock
affects the characteristics of the grapes at all, but I wouldn't it expect
it to be the major factor.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:14:17 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - There are no old world grapes.

> So ineffect, there is no longer extant "old world"
> grapes, because even the mighty french have had to rely on American
> root stocks. 
>
> Bogdan din Brasov

Bogdan,
Sorry to burst your bubble, but a variant of that specific fungus was
native to Europe. The reason that the fungus ran rampant was that due to
constant torrential rain fall. Roots of the grape plants were
super-saturated, and unable to fend off the fungal attack. A grape
grower by the name of Kerney, who had an interest developmental
vinicultuer and extensive ties to Europe, provided the solution to the
problem of the European vintners. While it is true that Kerney and his
associates saved commercial viniculture in Europe, its also true that
they did so using the root s of grape stock of European origin. New
world grapes had been found to be unsuitable for commercial viniculture
and all verities under commercial cultivation in the late 18 and 1900's
in the Americas were of European origin or derivation.  In addition
areas of feral grapes and small holdings survived intact. The hybrid
vigor of the american provided root stock was instrumental in the
preservation of the wine industry in France, but the decrease in
production gave rise to the vinicultural trends of Germany, Italy and
Spain[with the exception of the popular sherry of Spain and the ports of
Portugal.]  The reason that the American root stock was more resistant
was that the American vintners, unlike their cousins were more
interested in developing disease resistant varieties. Mr Kerney was more
concerned with combating nematodes rather than fungi, but still had
enough root stock suitable to supply the areas devastated by the fungal
invasion.

For further information, contact the Agricultural Department of the
Fresno State University, as they were the recipients of both the lands
and research notes and journals detailing his participation in this
matter.

Taras the Unwashed
using the account of margali

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:44:00 +1100
From: Robyn.Hodgkin at mailhost.dpie.gov.au
Subject: SC - RE: sultanas & Sugar

Bizarre..  just shows how much regional variations in ability to
find ingredients exists.

I was actually quite stunned to find someone asking what sultanas
were.  Most Australian children have grown up with sultanas in their
lunchbox for morning tea. You can get them in little boxes and
packets. It is just one of those things that you take for granted
in your life...

Sultanas are a grape variety which are small, white, sweet and
seedless.  They are one of the premier drying grapes, and are
much much smaller than raisins.  They are larger than currants
though... I had been under the impression that currants were
dried black-currants, but have just been enlightened and told
that they too are a grape.

Size wise....

Sultanas, aprox 7/16th of an inch
Raisins, approx 12/16ths
Currants, approx 4 or 5/16ths of an inch.

Kiriel
Lochac

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:03:52 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Great Raisons

psu08000 at odin.cc.pdx.edu writes:
<< Does anyone know what "great raisins" are? >>

They are regular raisons as opposed to raisons of corance (aka Raisons of
Corinth aka dried currents aka Zante currants). :-)

Ras

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:44:42 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Dried currents

THLRenata at aol.com writes:
<< Currents are their own fruit and can be used either fresh or dried. >>

Although this statement is accurate, SFAIK it is generally accepted that in
the majority of cases when a period recipe speaks of dried currents (e.g.
raisyns of corance) what is meant is most probably raisons of Corinth. If the
use of Corinthian raisons is followed throughout the period from beginning to
late period, it is clearly evident that the original language becomes, over
time, corupted to the point where raysons of coraunce becomes written as dried
currents

Raisons of Corinth are a type of grape also but they are very small and are
sold under the name of Dried Currents-Zante . Sunkist is the brand I use
because it is readily available in the supermarkets in my area.

Ras

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:09:05 +1000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re:  SC - Dried currents

>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>currants (red or black) used in period?  and if so how were they referred to?
>-brid

In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
distinct from raisins of grapes.

Rowan

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:13:37 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re:  SC - Dried currents

At 9:09 AM +1000 5/1/98, Robyn Probert wrote:
>>So... if currants in period recipes are the little grape raisins, were *real*
>>currants (red or black) used in period?  and if so how were they referred to?
>>-brid
>
>In many period recipies (esp 14th and 15th century) they are referred to as
>"raysons of coraunce" (spelling varies) - ie "raisins of currants" as
>distinct from raisins of grapes.

I think you have it backwards. "Raysons of coraunce" means "raisins of
Corinth" means "dried zante grapes." My guess is that our "currants" got
called that because they were vaguely similar to raisins of Corinth, i.e.
little grapes.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 10:55:21 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

>but which came first?

Raisons of Corinth.

According to the OED, the term was transferred to the Ribes fruits, which
were introduced into England sometime before 1578, when they are mentioned
by Lyte as the "Beyond sea gooseberry." They were vulgarly believed to be
the source of the dried "raisons of Corinth. Lyte calls them "Bastard
currant" and both Gerard and Parkinson protest against the error of calling
them "currants."

Useful book, the OED.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:02:16 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried currents

meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au writes:
<< raysons of coraunce' makes more sense to me as dried currants.
 What's the logic behind your statement Ras?

 Drake. >>

<Sigh> The word currants is a relatively recent addition to the language.
Coraunce is generally known to be Corinth. The dried Zante grape was imported
and used very early in medieval recipes and came from the general
Mediterranean area where Corinth is located. It also grows well and
prolifically in that climate.

Although modern "currants" are native to Scandinavia, cultivation of the fruit
we now know as currants beginning in the 16th century (e.g., see "Food by
Waverly Root), I find it very difficult to believe that the widespread use of
dried modernly named currants would have been either practical or commercially
feasible if the source of the fruit was the wild plant.

Actual examples of the use of modern "currants" do not appear, SFAIK, anywhere
in the existing body of medieval recipes. And given that commercial production
of modern currants began outside the generally excepted dates of medieval
culture, I find it difficult to imagine it's general use in the middle ages.
Alternatively, in a dried form modern "currants" are very similar in
appearance to the traditional Zante currant (e.g., raison of Coraunce).  It
would have taken little imagination to apply the original name of the
more expensive Zante import to a locally grown commercial crop especially when
that crop looked like and could be used in place of the original item.

Hope I hgave been clear here but it is sometimes difficuolt to summerize
several dozen pages of examples and information into a couple of paragraphs.

Ras

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:46:13 +0000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Vegetable Names

Micaylah wrote:
>Yes but aren't sultanas sultanas and golden raisins golden raisins? I know I
>can buy both at the store.

Without rehashing the long debate on this we had some months back, it
depends where you live. In Lochac/Australia, raisins are large dried grapes
with seeds, sultanas are small dried seedless (sultana) grapes.  Muscatels
are small dried muscatel grapes (usually dried on the stem), currants are
very small dried blackcurrants, etc.

Rowan

Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 13:33:30 -0500
From: Phlip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: [none]

> With all the recipes I have seen that reference currants, and having
> picked my share of ripe currants in late summer, I remain confused as
> to why these berries are refused as a possible food source??
> Especially in places that didn't necessarily have their own grape
> vines to make raisins from??  How far off-track am I?
>
> Tyrca

I wouldn't call it off-track. Probably the biggest reason for believing
references are to grape-y currants rather than black/red currants is
that raisins of courance/corinth/etc. is almost invariably specified,
and while Corinth was known in period for growing grapes, it has, and
SFAIK had, no reputation for growing currant berries. Also, most dried
fruit is (or was) sun-dried, and the parts of Northern Europe where
currants (berries) grow aren't especially suited for that kind of
processing.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:54:20 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Dried Currants

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> snowfire at mail.snet.net writes:
> << So the word "rayson" means "dried" or something?
>
>  Elysant >>
>
> rayson equals rison which is indeed the name used for a dried grape.
>
> Ras

raisin < M.E. & O.F. reisin < L.L. racimus < L. racemus, meaning a
cluster of grapes

Small dried grapes (presumably dried on the bunch) were brought from the
Mediterranean Basin to places like England, where they were known as
"raysouns of Courance", or some variant thereof.

Possibly larger dried grapes came from elsewhere, and weren't considered
Corinthian.

It's very unlikely that the currants referred to in the medieval English
recipes are referring to anything other than dried grapes, for a variety
of reasons among them being:

1. English cookery of the period calls for a lot of dried Mediterranean
fruit, such as plums, figs, dates and raisins, as well as raisins of
Corinth. None of these are local items, and they are there both for the
romance of their imported status and also for their sweetness, something
the English seemed to prize more than the French, the Italians, and the
Germans.

2. While red and black currants do seem to have existed in the British
Isles, Britain is really not a terrific place for drying fruit, given
its climate. I believe there are a few references to drying apples, but
not many, and I've seen no references to berries having been dried. I
suspect they're more likely to have been either eaten fresh or made into
country wines.

I have no idea why red and black currants are called currants; my
dictionary suggests they are so named due to their resemblance to the
small, dried "Corinthian" grapes. If this sounds implausible, I'll pose
a modern example of this type of equivocation: ever see the Python
routine about the self-defense against fresh fruit course? John Cleese,
as the instructor, uses the term "red currant" and "raspberry"
interchangably, having his students charge at him with deadly
raspberries, using a Bengal tiger, as I recall, to defend himself. He
says the great advantage of the tiger in unarmed combat is that 'e eats
not only the fruit-laden foe, but also the red currants.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2000 00:20:38 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - verjus

And it came to pass on 11 Mar 00,, that Thomas Gloning wrote:

> The two uses of Italian "agresto" or "agresta" for the unripe grapes and
> for verjuice are also observed in an article of Jaqueline Brunet and Odile
> Redon on "Vins, jus et verjus" [Wines, juices and verjuice in Italian
> cookbooks of the 14th and 15th centuries]. They say:

The same usage appears in Spanish.  "Agraz" refers both to the unripe 
grapes and to the juice thereof.  Sometimes the liquid is referred to as 
"zumo de agraz" (juice of unripe grapes), but the shorthand version is 
more usual.

Some recipes call for the grapes themselves.  Sometimes this is stated 
explicitly as "agraz entero" (whole unripe grapes).  Sometimes it is 
simply made clear by the context.  For example, a recipe in Granado for 
verjuice jelly contains the instruction to take the "agraz" and remove the 
seeds, then cook it with water and sugar until it comes apart; obviously, 
this refers to the fruit, not the juice.  There is a recipe in de Nola which 
uses the word in both its meanings.  "PARA HACER BUEN AGRAZ 
CONFORTATIVO"  (To make a good comforting verjuice).  The 
instructions are to take "agraz" and crush it in a mortar to extract the 
juice, adding leaves of basil.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:19:56 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Grapoe varieites-LONG

jenne at tulgey.browser.net writes:
<< What extant grape species are period? >>

Actually commercial production was greatly reduced. Phylloxera was introduced 
into France from the eastern USA. France quickly grafted their traditional 
varieties onto American rootstock and within 4-5 years was again producing 
the same wines as before. Cabernet Sauvignon, True Chablis, Sauvignon Blanc, 
Cabernet Blanc, Chardonnay, Shiraz and more (excluding Zinfandel which is 
inconclusive as to origins) all date back to at least the middle ages and 
some such as Cabernet Sauvignon and not a few Italian, Spanish and Portuguese 
varieties date to the Roman occupation. Although some varieties do have 
'improved' cultivars, for the most part these vines are essentially the exact 
clones of the original vines since the procedure for multiplying grapes is by 
cuttings and grafting and not seed. grafting and cutting as a reproductive 
method were widely practiced as early as the 1st century in Rome and most 
likely earlier but many centuries in the Greco-Middle Eastern area.

Also many wines such as Trebbiano and Est! Est! Est!  from Italy are still 
being produced exactly as they were in the middle ages so the purchase of 
commercial wine is well within  the products still available in  modern times 
list that can be called 'period' without guilt or error. :-)

Ironically, the recent problems with this disease in California is a direct 
result of California producers planting Vinifera vines on their own roots 
because the disease had not been seen in California. With the experimental 
breeding of European Vinifera type cultivars in the East at places like the 
University of Pennsylvania, Cornell University and other quality agricultural 
centers and their subsequent offering on a commercial scale by grape vine 
producing companies such as Canandagua and Welshes, it was inevitable that 
this disease, which is indigenous to the Northeastern USA, would eventually 
find it's way to California.

More's the pity...

Ras

Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:51:22 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Sappa

ekoogler at chesapeake.net writes:
> I don't suppose there is any chance of getting them to bottle and peddle the 
> must for those of us who don't have any vintners nearby who do something like 
> this?
>  
>  Kiri

Actually, you have a couple of choices that might not have been explored on 
this thread yet.

1. There are, in many brewing and vinting supply shops, canned grape 
concentrates of just about any wine variety available. Most are of a size to 
make a five gallon batch of wine, but I'd assume you'd boil them down further 
to make a syrup anyway, and once it's concentrated, it's less likely to mold, 
and might be of a size to be in the fridge.

2. Middle Eastern markets have grape syrup in as a cooking ingredient. I 
don't know the variety, but I'll look on the label the next time I go to the 
best local one here.

Corwyn

Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 08:02:47 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Cardinal Grapes

steldr at home.net writes:
<< I know we've had some discussion on grape types in period and that concord
 grapes are a modern creation >>

Various concord types are indeed the result of selective breeding using 
labrusca grapes which are the native American variety of grapes. 

<<- I was just at a produce shop here in Tulsa and they had cardinal grapes 
- -- can anyone tell me more about them?  Are they  still a concord type??? >>

Cardinal grapes were developed in 1939 CE at the Horticulture Station in 
Fresno, California. They are vinifera in ancestry. 

A table grape which would be useful at feasts would be Thompson Seedless 
which originally come from Iran. Another variety of table grapes on the 
market which has an ancient history is Regina (introduced from Syria to 
Italy by the Romans), 

Ras

Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 21:49:42 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sultanas & golden raisins

> Nanna Rognvaldardottir wrote:
> ><snippage>
> > Just to add even more to the confusion, there are also Corinthian raisins,
> > which have nothing to do with (dried) currants - they are sultanas, fairly
> > large, dark golden, and very sweet and tasty.
> >
> > Nanna

Sue Clemenger wrote: 
> So a "sultana" would be what I see marketed (in my part of the U.S.) as
> "golden raisins?"
> --Maire

Not exactly, but a good working substitute. I believe the golden raisins
we get in the US are dried Thompson Seedless grapes.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2000 01:18:14 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: Re: SC - must

Platina, in book II, at the beginning and at the end of chapter 4 (De
uva; on grapes) gives some information about must. Of particular value
is the contrast to _sapa_ at the end of this chapter.

Th.

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] online glossary
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 15:00:50 -0500 

> Muskadine - ?
>  (A Closet for Ladies and Gentlewomen, 1636) - To make Prince-bisket
> bread... and a spoonfull of Muskadine,...
>
> Muscadine grapes or raisins????  I know that there is a kind of wine made from
> that sort of grapes...maybe that's what they're talking about.

What is currently called muscadine in the US is made from New World grapes
and is also referred to as scuppernong wine.  The muscadine mentioned here
is probably a wine of muscat grapes.  French Muscadet from the Loire Valley
is such a wine.

Bear

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:13:19 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] New raisins in de Nola
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 15 Oct 2003, at 9:57, CorwynWdwd at aol.com wrote:
> You obviously have never cleaned your kitchen cabinets and found "THE RAISIN
> BOX THAT NOBODY REMEMBERED" Da Da DAAAAAAAAAA" <G>... There's a block of fossilized
> raisens in there. Trust me, there's a difference, and I bet given the 
> shipping methods in period the differences were more profound.
>
> Corwyn

I've had good luck using the microwave to resurrect such fossils. Break the
mass apart, and put it in a micro-safe dish.  Sprinkle it with a small amount
of water (maybe 2 tablespoons for a boxful?).  Cover the dish tightly with
plastic wrap, and nuke it for a few minutes.  The steam will rehydrate the
raisins, and they will be soft and plump.  Boiling water works too, but the
microwave method is less messy, and less likely to wash away flavor.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:57:40 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Was: Wine must/Now: raisens
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Are raisins period?

Well, there's a raisin paste in 2 Fifteenth c. cookery books, and  
Raisins in the Chopped Spinach recipe in de Nola, so I'm pretty sure that dried grapes are  
period.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 

Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:07:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Grapes (was Chekyns in browet)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Were there even green, ripe grapes in period? The only green when
ripe grapes I know of today are seedless ones, and I assume those are
a modern hybrid.
_______________________________________________

De Nola has one recipe which calls for three bunches of "white"  
grapes and two bunches of "black".  (Likewise, figs are divided into  
white and black varieties.)   These are not unripe grapes -- the term  
for those is "agraz"  -- and the same word is used for the juice of  
unripe grapes.

I don't know what "green" means in the case of the English recipe  
that Lainie quoted.

Is there a viticulturist in the house?

Brighid ni Chiarain
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:47:53 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at jeffnet.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] how green is 'grene'?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Ok, so I posted the question of the 'grene' grapes to the Chaucerian crowd,
and got some very interesting replies- here's a few- and the one that I
think is the winner:
_____
I looked through my medieval cookbooks and found a "black grape" sauce
and as I read it, it does mean grapes that are black in color.

OTOH, in another book there is definition for an ingredient called
"verjus":  "Vinegar and unripe grapes (whose juice and whose seeds
preserved in salt were both called verjuice --_verjus_--and were
flavorings of paramount importance) could be kept in store for several
months.  Cooks also used young wine, produced within the past year, and
took care to have it in good supply."  So here is clearly grapes that
were green with "green" meaning unripe, no matter what color they might
have been destined to be when ripe.

[Not sure what that might mean, since verjus is not mentioned in the  
recipe...]
_____
AND NOW, FOR OUR WINNER TODAY!:

It occurs to me that if you set out the recipe as the rhymes suggest, you
may decide that the colour and ripeness of the grapes are a matter of
choice.

Chekyns in browet.
Take chekyns, scalde hom fayre and clene.
Take persole, sauge, oþer herb3 grene,
Grapus, and stope þy chekyns with wynne.
Take goode brothe, sethe hom þerinne,
So þat þay sone boyled may be.
Coloure þe brothe with safrone fre,
And cast þeron powder dowce,
For to be served in goode mennys howse.
_____
It had not occurred to me that the recipe might be arranged thusly- but
dang, it fits! Which solves my question- because the 'grene' modifies the
herbs, not the grapes! So maybe next time I'll use red grapes, which IMO
are tastier, and worry more about my dessert!

'Lainie

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2006 07:59:37 -0500 Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 13:43:17 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:08 PM, Sharon Gordon wrote:
> A post on another list reminded me to ask about Roysonys of courance.
>
> I've been told these are
> 1) Currants, probably black ones
> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants
> 3) The tiny black currant grapes that look rather like currants
> 4) Dried versions of the tiny black currant grapes that look rather like
> currants
>
> How do you know what to use when?

A raisin is a type of grape. Raisins of Corinth, dried currants, and
Zante currants, and variations on those names, probably refer to #4
above. Most medieval recipes will refer to raisins of courance when
the little dried grapes are wanted, and raisins of the sun, or great
raisins (as opposed to small) when ordinary dried raisins are what is
intended.

Red and black currants are, I believe, technically berries, and they
don't seem to turn up that often, if at all, in medieval recipes. I
suspect that medieval England (which I mention because English
recipes seem to call for raisins and currants more often than French
and German ones, AFAICT) wasn't a big center for the dried fruit
industry, nor _really_ suitable climactically for sun-drying fruit on
farms.

While this is probably an over-simplification, recipes, more often
than not, when they refer to currants in English, anyway, are going
to be calling for a dried, imported product, or fresh or conserved,
red or black currants (must check some late-period sources), which
latter are more likely to be a local product, in season if not
preserved.

Are we confused yet? ;-)

Adamantius

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Mar 1, 2006, at 2:16 AM, otsisto wrote:

> My local health food store carries dried black currants and they are the
> currants and not the zantes. I was a bit surprised as gooseberries which are
> related don't seem to dehydrate real well. The store can't get dried red
> currants.
> I did get a taste of homemade chocolate covered (dehydrated) red currants
> (clusters) and cranberries from a friend whose cousin made them for
> Christmas gifts one year. So I think it is possible.

It is surely possible now, but that doesn't mean it was possible, let
alone practiced, anywhere in medieval Europe. Let's think about it
this way: where, in medieval Europe, would there have been a regular
supply of red or black currants and the kind of warm, sunny, breezy
climate commonly associated with the drying of fruit? I'm trying to
picture the famous local red currant crops of Malaga, Provence, or
Turkey, or Lebanon, or Tunis, and all I'm getting on the Wayback
Machine's screen is snow and static... not much better luck when we
look for the booming raisin industry in Herjolfness. See what I mean?

> -----Original Message-----
>> 2) Dried black and/or maybe red currants
>
> Apparently that can't be done (she says, eyeing her bottle of black
> currant syrup - made from real currants)

Perhaps the above was a bit of an overstatement, but the gist, which
is that the necessary combination of raw materials and suitable
conditions for drying did not exist in period, with a long tradition
of conserving and otherwise moist-preserving this fruit as supporting
evidence for the claim, is probably pretty accurate.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2006 00:35:43 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Roysonys of courance
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Mar 2, 2006, at 9:59 PM, Daniel Phelps wrote:
> Seriously, though, we can be pretty certain that a period English
> recipe calling for raisins of Courance is referring to dried grapes
> of the little variety found on some Mediterranean islands like
> Corinth and Zante.
>
> Okay lests we not see what it obvious, i.e. the forest for the trees
>
> roysonys of courance
> raisins of Corinth
>
> Hmmm... raysonys are raisins  could courance be Corinth?
>
> Did this get noted in a previous post that I missed?

I didn't specifically mention it, but I may have been remiss in not
stating something I thought was, if not obvious, at least highly
likely. What I did was to use them fairly interchangeably, though.

FWIW, I found this in Apple's Webster's Dictionary application that
comes bundled with recent versions of OS X (I have an edition of the
OED on disk, but it would require rebooting to get at it):

currant 
noun
1 a small dried fruit made from a seedless variety of grape
originally grown in the eastern Mediterranean region, now widely
produced in California, and much used in cooking : [as adj. ] a
currant bun.
2 a Eurasian shrub that produces small edible black, red, or white
berries. • Genus Ribes, family Grossulariaceae: numerous species,
including black currant and red currant.
• a berry from such a shrub.
ORIGIN Middle English raisons of Corauntz, translating Anglo-Norman
French raisins de Corauntz ‘grapes of Corinth ’ (the original
source).

This doesn't state with much clarity that the etymology of the term
"currant" as it applies to the red and black berries derives from the
little dried Mediterranean grape, but it seems evident that that is
the case. I then have to wonder what the berries were called in
England before the little dried grape was a common import item.

Ah, well, Anne Hagen just became bedtime reading, I guess...

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 07:16:58 +0200 (CEST)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> I thought Weinbeeren were fresh grapes.  By white
> raisins, do you mean the ones sold here as golden
> raisins?

In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh
grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still
'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,
fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail
refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind
of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if
that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I
haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American
outlet in years.

Giano

Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 02:31:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rosine was Plum Butter
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:
> In period recipes, 'weinbeeren' AFAIK can mean fresh
> grapes, especially in northern dialects (it's still
> 'winbeer' in Low German). In modern German, though,
> fresh grapes are 'Trauben'. Weinbeeren in retail
> refers to a gently dried white grape that gains a kind
> of greenish colour in the process. I don't know if
> that is what you'd call golden raisins, though, I
> haven't had the opportunity to shop in an American
> outlet in years.
>
> Giano

For the general American grocery-buying public, there are only three  
types of raisins generally available to us:  The black raisin, the golden raisin, and the currant.  This doesn't mean that there are no other kinds of raisins produced in small, local markets, etc.  But, in general, these
are the only kinds you can find country-wide.

The golden raisin is also called a "sultana".  Which was initially produced by Turks using a "white" or green grape.  In the US, this same grape is now called a Thompson's Seedless grape, because in the mid-19th century, a hybridizer took the Turkish sultana grape and fiddled with it so that it is now a seedless grape and added his name to it.  I have read somewhere that both the black raisin and the golden raisin are now both made from Thompson's Seedless grapes, but using
different processes in order to get the different colors.

Huette

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 03:05:21 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

--On Friday, July 02, 2010 1:47 AM -0500 "Mark S. Harris"
<MarkSHarris at austin.rr.com> wrote:
<<< Okay, I guess this might be a good description for some, but not me. What
color is "petits pois"? I'm assuming some sort of green. >>>

"petits pois" are little green peas.

toodles, margaret

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 02:14:38 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

Do they look like these?
http://www.mrsoshouse.com/plants/image/grapes.jpg
or
http://www.josephinedonatelli.com/images/graphics/grapes500x331crop1.jpg

http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/wild_grape.htm

-----Original Message-----
Dame Selene said:
<<< So the feral table grapes are all over my parents' backyard again and
the bunches of grapes are forming.  Not very big and juicy since nobody
actually waters them on purpose, but the fruit is on the vine, about the
size and colour of petits pois. >>>

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 21:42:52 +0930
From: "Claire Clarke" <angharad at adam.com.au>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Green table grapes are green, but they are ripe, right? But they aren't the
purple of wine grapes. Are they imported or native to the New World? Are all
wine grapes reddish purple to purple when ripe?  The green table grapes
don't taste like they would be Concord grapes.

Stefan

======
Table grapes can be both red and white/green. The green ones are definitely
ripe. As far as I  know almost all wine grapes are red. They are all
cultivars of the same species, just with differing amounts of sugars and so
on. I've never heard of Concord grapes. 

In the set of three links otsisto sent the first looks most like the grapes
that grow in my garden when they are immature. I have a red and a white vine
growing together and you cannot tell which bunches are which until they
ripen.

Angharad

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 08:23:47 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Chardonnay grapes aren't red.
http://wine.appellationamerica.com/grape-varietal/Chardonnay.html

http://www.concordgrape.org/ provides information on the Concord  
grapes where it says
"it was not until 1854 that the Concord variety made its debut,  
appropriately named after the Massachusetts village of Concord where  
the first of its variety was grown. The Concord grape is a robust and  
aromatic grape whose ancestors were wild native species found growing  
in the rugged New England soil.

TO JUICE: The first unfermented grape juice known to be processed in  
the United States was by a Vineland, New Jersey dentist, Dr. Thomas  
Welch in 1869. Dr. Welch, his wife and 17-year old son, Charles,  
gathered 40 pounds of Concord grapes from the trellis in front of  
their house. In their kitchen, they cooked the grapes for a few  
minutes, squeezed the juice out through cloth bags, and poured the  
world?s first processed fresh fruit juice into twelve quart bottles on  
the kitchen table..... Dr. Welch's process was a success, and his  
application of Louis Pasteur's theory of pasteurization to preserve  
fresh grape juice pioneered the industry of canned and bottled fruit  
juices in America. This first juice was used on the Communion table in  
the local Methodist church for sacramental purposes, and most of the  
first orders for grape juice came from churches for Communion.

In the century following the introduction of Concord grapes, more of  
these blue-black slip-skin grapes were sold than all other species  
combined. Today, growers harvest more than 336,000 tons in the U.S.  
Washington grows the largest number, followed by New York, Michigan,  
Pennsylvania, Ohio and Missouri.

See also http://www.welchs.com/

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 08:48:13 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <kiridono at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

There is a type of wild grape that is available in the mountains of
Virginia...and I'd assume probably North Carolina that is called a Fox
grape.  It's somewhat larger than the domesticated table grapes and wine
grapes.  It is a red grape with a slightly rusty appearance to the skin when
ripe.  My mother and father used to drive up to the Skyline Drive in the
Blue Ridge Mtns. and pick the grapes from the roadside.  Mama would then
make the most amazing grape juice from them...instead of being the more
purplish color that most grape juice is, this was a rich dark red in color.
I still remember the taste very fondly.  I wish I could get hold of some now
as that would probably make amazing sapa....

Kiri

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 07:58:50 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Not all wine grapes are red.  As I recall, Chardonny and Malvasia are made 
from white grapes.

Concord grapes are a North American grape and are a cultivar of Vitis 
labrusca.  Primarily used for jams, jellies and purple grape juice.

Bear

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 09:15:23 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

Fox grapes are still found all over the Eastern USA.
It's even considered a noxious weed in some places.
I suspect it's the grapevine growing in my yard that we use Roundup on.
(It's either kill the vine or forget about the roses in that area.)

http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=VILA8
http://wisplants.uwsp.edu/scripts/detail.asp?SpCode=VITLAB

You may be able to order the plants and grow your own.
http://products.naturehills.com/wildfoxgrape/index.html

Johnnae

On Jul 2, 2010, at 8:48 AM, Elaine Koogler wrote:
<<< There is a type of wild grape that is available in the mountains of
Virginia...and I'd assume probably North Carolina that is called a Fox
grape.  snipped I wish I could get hold of some now
as that would probably make amazing sapa....

Kiri >>>

Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 10:17:20 -0400
From: Sandra Kisner <sjk3 at cornell.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

<<< I suspect it's the grapevine growing in my yard that we use Roundup on.
(It's either kill the vine or forget about the roses in that area.) >>>

Or miss it for a year and end up pulling and hacking and slashing trying 
to keep it from burying anything in its path....  (Does the Roundup work?)

Sandra

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 14:55:32 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] grapes

Wild grapes are edible, they're very tart though. clear out that which is in
areas that you wish for other use and prune back that which you wish to
save. Most times if they are not fruiting you need to prune them almost
severely back. If the following year they do not produce, you either pruned
them to severely or the vine is just to old. You can to some extent treat
them like reg. grapes in their care.

I have two wild grapes, one was trying to engulf my house and though it
would be nice in the summer for the shade, the tendrils try to remove the
siding. :\

I have used the poison oak and ivy roundup, did good. as poison ivy was
trying to compete with the w. grapes in growth in other spots in the yard
and though I am not allergic to the poison ivy (but am to p.oak) and though
the P.I. is a good deterrent for kids trying to cut across my fenced in
backyard after school, once it has established it takes over and is much
harder to get rid of. Plus I mulch my grass clipping and if I get P.I. bits
in the bag it propagates and I don't like P.I. in my garden.
De
-----Original Message-----
there is a 'new' Roundup product that is designed for pest vines. I not only
have non-productive grape vines growing everywhere, but I also have the
biggest, healthiest Poison Ivy and Poison Oak that you have ever seen.
the product is on my shopping List for Lowe's this weekend. I am highly
sensitive to the Poison plants, so all I will need is a proper Haz-Mat suit
to dress up in, loppers and a bucket to dip the loppers in as I cut....

At least I think the Wild Grapes are non-productive. I have seen them bloom,
but no fruit. Birds-I do have lots of birds, squirrels, chipmunks, Opossums,
Raccoons, deer, and feral cats....

Helen

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 15:02:21 -0500
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks] grapes

There are a variety of wild grapes.
To name a few;
Vitis bicolor
Vitis labrusca (fox grapes)
Vitis aestivalis
Vitis cordifolia
Vitis cinerea var. Baileyana
Vitis riparia
Vitis rupestris

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	grapes-msg	 of