carbonadoes-msg

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carbonadoes-msg - 12/22/08

A medieval "barbecued" meat dish. A method of cooking meat by broiling, for example on a grid-iron before the fire or over hot embers, with prior slashing to increase the speed with which heat penetrates the meat.

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Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:24:46 -0400

From: "Ginny Beatty" <ginbeatty at gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I'm working on my article for Artes Draconis on

carbonadoes/carbonados/charbonados. Markham (English Housewife) states that

this particular cooking technique is French in its origin.

However, the only French reference I've been able to find is a list of foods

in a Francois Rabelais story from 1532.

There is another English reference to Spain though. (A PAGEANT OF

SPANISH HUMOURS. Wherin are naturally de- / scribed and lively portrayed the

kinds / and quallities of a signior / of Spaine. /

Translated out of Dutche by H.W. / Haud curo Inuidiam. / [imagen] /

Imprinted at London by [J. Windet for] Iohn Wolfe, and are to be solde at /

his shop in Popes-head Alley, neare to / the Exchange 1599. )

http://www.ehumanista.ucsb.edu/projects/spanish_black_legend/02.htm

"3 A signior is a woolfe at table.

Signior at his dyet is as a ravenous woolfe, with the one elbow leaning on

the table, openeth his mawe like a Judas putse. He layeth his tallants on

the meat like a woolfe that gripeth a lambe: he esteemes it no shame to

ruyne the dith and tumble the eates topsies turvie [sic], to seeke de buena

gana los buenas boccades, the which ell ventro del uno he purposeth to send;

what a signior doeth not eate, he heaeth, or unseemly myngleth. Amore

lickorish wretch earth doth not produce, his fare must daily be fresh, both

roasted and sod, besides this, he is a wonderfull devourer of olia podridos

and carbonadoes, togither with an infinit quantitie of fruites, comfites,

and boccados yet it is a hard matter if a man hath not one good qualitie, no

es barachono, you must not thinke so, except it [5]were a chance 8 910 .

This is a signiosr dyet at anothers cost, but alas if you finde him at his

owne table, you may see it stately furnished with a sardinia, or a

crust of bread, a pot of agua, and perhaps a bone, yet abroad, if there be a

woolfe at the table, signior is one. "

And there's a brief reference in Christopher Marlowe's Tamburlaine

"Take it up Villaine and eat it, or I will make thee slice the brawnes of

thy armes into carbonadoes, and eat them."

I've done some extensive Google <http://www.google.com/>; searching

with limited success except for multiple citations from Markham and links to

spiffy Brazilian black diamonds (also called carbonadoes). There's nothing

in the Florilegium except for Markham's references to carbonadoes (posted

by Adamantius), as well a few menus here and there. So, I would like some

help beyond that. If there's an actual French or Spanish source that

discusses carbonados (and its various spellings) , I would appreciate it.

I can read French.

Gwyneth Banfhidleir, OL (Midrealm)

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:41:51 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's a quick search and a few quotations:

Actually this relates back to another earlier question

regarding Gascoigne, George, Turberville, George, and Fouilloux, Jacques du.

The noble arte of venerie or hunting of 1575.

Because on page 128 of that book one finds:

You shall also present before the Prince or chiefe personage in field,

some fine sauce made with wine and spices in a fayre dishe vpon a

chafyngdishe and coles, to the end that as he or she doth behold the

huntesman breaking vp of the Deare, they may take theyr pleasure of the

sweete deintie morsels, and dresse some of them on the coles, makyng

them Carbonadies, and eating them with their sauce, reioycing and

recreating their noble mindes with rehersall whiche hounde hunted best,

and which huntesman hunted moste like a woodman:

The Morgan Library that just ended is here

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/exhibition.asp?id=2

So if you dig up a copy of The noble arte of venerie, it's in there;

there even may be an Illustration. I didn't check that yet.

------------------

The glossary at Prospect Press lists:

CARBONADE or to CARBONADO: ?is to cut and slash any cold joynt of Meat

and Salt it and then broil it before the Fire? (Randle Holme). (Richard

Bradley, 1736)

CARBONADOE, 166-8: a method of cooking meat by broiling, for example on

a grid-iron before the fire or over hot embers, with prior slashing to

increase the speed with which heat penetrates the meat. In Coriolanus,

Shakespeare wrote: ?He scotcht him and notcht him like a Carbinado.?

Some but not all of May?s examples are explicit about the prior

slashing. (Robert May, 1660/1685)

Holme and his The academy of armory are from 1688.

(See my TI article on Holme for more on what this book is.)

His exact text says:

Carbonado

is to cut and slash any cold joynt o? Meat and Salt it and then broiled

it before the Fire: or Raw peeces of Meat thus broiled on the Fire, are

termed of some Carbonadoes (of Beef because that is most used so) others

call them Rashers of Beef.

----------

Under CARBONADOE I've found it listed in a list in the book

Gargantua and Pantagruel

By Fran?ois Rabelais, Thomas Urquhart, Peter Anthony Motteux

Published by Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2005

It appears there among the list that reads:

Slipslop. Grisp Pig. Greasy Slouch. Fatgut. Bray- mortar. Lick-sawce.

Hog's Foot. Hodgepodge. Carbonadoe. Sop in Pan. Pick-foul. Mustard-pot.

Calfs Pluck. Hogs Haslet. Chopt-phiz. Gallymaufrey. Gully Guts. Rinse

Pot. Drink-spiller. Pudding-bag. Pig-sticker. Cold Eel. Thorn

So you might look to Rabelais also.

----------------

Ran it through a variety of Dictionaries

John Florio A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and exact dictionarie

in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio.

from 1598.

Florio lists the following:

* Brasuolare, to frie, or broyle in steakes or collops.

* Brasuole, steakes, collops, rashers, or car|bonados. Also a kinde

of hose or slops so called.

Carbonaia a cole-pit or place where coles are made.

Carbonare, * to besmeare as black as coles, to besmother.

* Carbonaro, a collier.

Carbon?ta , a carbonada,meate broiled vpon the coles, a rasher.

* Incarbonare, to blacke, to besmeare with coales. Also to broile

vpon the coales, to make a carbonado ?

* Incarbonata, a ? carbonado of broyled meate, a rasher on the coales.

------

Carbonado, (Ital.) a rasher or collop of meat, a Gash in the flesh. is

how it is defined in The new world of English words, or, A general

dictionary from 1658.

------

Carbonado, I. a gash in the flesh; also a piece of flesh broild on the

Coals. An English dictionary explaining the difficult terms 1677.

----

CARBONADO, broiled meat. (Span., - L.) Properly ? a rasher.' Cotgrave,

s. v. carbonade, explains it by ' a carbonadoe, a rasher on the coales.'

Used by Shak. Cor. iv. 5. 199. ? Span, carbonado, carbonado, meat

broiled on a gridiron ; properly a pp. from a verb carbonar*, to

broil. ? Span, carbon, charcoal, coal. ? Lat. ace. carbonem, coal; from

nom. carbo. See above. Der. carbonado, verb ; K. Lear, ii. 2.41.

from

An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language

By Walter William Skeat

Published by Clarendon press, 1893

---

Another dictionary Huloets dictionarie newelye corrected from 1572 lists:

under broyled and burned the following:

* Broyled.Carbonatus, a, um.* Tostus, ta, tum. Brusl?, rosti. S.

* Burned lyke to a cole.Carbonatus, Carbunculatus, a, um. *

* Burned rostemeate on the spitte. Subuerbusta.

Oxford Premium Online lists this meaning

*carbonade* A carbonade is a Flemish dish of beef and onions braised in

beer. The word was probably borrowed into French from Italian

/carbonata/, which goes back ultimately to Latin /carb/, ?charcoal? and

referred originally to the way in which the meat was grilled over

charcoal to seal it before being stewed.

"carbonade" /An A-Z of Food and Drink/. Ed. John Ayto. Oxford University

Press, 2002.

( viande grill?e ) carbonado. in their French-English dictionary

And Now for OED---

OED lists

*carbo'nado**,* sb.1 Obs. Also 7 carbinado, charbonado. [ad. Sp.

/carbonada/ `a Carbonado on the coles' (Minsheu) = Ital. /carbonata/,

Fr. /carbonade/ (Cotgrave); see -ado

] A piece of fish, flesh, or fowl, scored across and grilled or broiled

upon the coals. Often transf.

* *1586* Marlowe /1st Pt. Tamburl./ iv. iv. 47, I will make thee

slice the brawns of thy arms into carbonadoes and eat them.

* *1591* Lyly /Sapho/ ii. iii. 175 If I venture..to eate a rasher on

the coales, a carbonado.

* *1607* Shaks. /Cor./ iv. v. 199 He scotcht him, and notcht him

like a carbinado.

* *1651* Markham /Eng. Housw./ 70 Charbonadoes.

As a verb

*carbo'nado*

ka/enticons/macr.gif/enticons/ipa151.gifb/o/n/e/enticons/macr.gif/i.d/o/,

v. arch. [f. carbonado

sb.1 ]

*1. * trans. To make a carbonado of; to score across and broil or grill.

* *1611* Shaks. /Wint. T./ iv. iv. 268 How she long'd to eate Adders

heads, and Toads carbonado'd.

* *C. 1630* Jackson /Creed/ iv. cvii. Wks. 1844 III. 105

Having..lastly his raw bulk broiled or carbonadoed quick.

*2. * transf. To cut, slash, hack.

* *1596* Nashe /Saffron Walden/ 20, I am the man will deliuer him to

thee to be scotcht and carbonadoed.

* *1605* Shaks. /Lear/ ii. ii. 41 Draw, you Rogue, or Ile so

carbonado your shanks.

*carbo'nadoed* ppl. a., *carbo'nadoing* vbl. sb.

* *1601* Shaks. /All's Well/ iv. v. 107 Your carbinado'd face.

* *1615* Markham /Eng. Housew./ ii. ii. (1668) 78 The manner of

carbonadoing.

A literature search turns up quotes like these:

------

then must they haue new deuises to procure appetite. If y^e wyne mislike

them, though they be ready to burst, yet must they eate some straunge

meate, as either a Carbonado, or the verie snuffe of a Candle, or a

pickled hering, and I wote not what else; so that to all seeming they

meane rather to murther themselues, than to haue any honestie in them.

Nowe let vs looke to the course of the Text, page 1036

from The sermons of M. Iohn Caluin vpon the fifth booke of Moses called

Deuteronomie Translated out of French by Arthur Golding. 1583

---

Yea, & more then that, in their Mu|saph or Alcoran they haue these

words: If men knew, how heauenly a thing it were to distribute almes,

they would not spare their owne flesh, but would euen teare the same,

and slice it into carbonadoes, to giue it vnto the poore. The Papists,

that are ouer|whelmed in superstition and idolatry, do hope (although

sacrilegiously) to be sa|ued by their almes-giuing.

Vaughan, William. The golden-groue moralized in three bookes. 1600

---

Away you I slington whitepot, hence you happerarse, you barly pudding

ful of magots, you broyld carbonado, auaunt, auaunt, auoide

Mephostophilus: shall Sim Eyre leaue to speake of you Ladie

Thomas Dekker. The shomakers holiday, 1600 Dekker uses the word quite

commonly as in later:

And alas, when our captiuated corps are yeelded to those scale|hunters,

then begins the Tamberlaine-Ignis to broile our barke, and carbonadoe

our well-compacted limbes. In heat has this hunter offended, but we will

torment him in another kinde. Oh, let our frosten nature benumme the

passages of his veynes, ...

Dekker, Thomas. The Owles almanacke prognosticating many strange

accidents from 1618

-----

and here is even a book that carries it in the title.

London and the countrey carbonadoed and quartred into seuerall

characters. By D. Lupton.

1632.

-----

Speaking of Pays de Vaux he said that it was a countrey where they made

goodly carbonadoe's of witches, and at that he laughed very loud. He

delighted much in jesting

Perrault, Fran?ois, The devill of Mascon, 1658.

----

Huge numbers of recipes in Woolley's volumes and also in The

Accomplish'd lady's delight in 1675.

Knowing quite a bit about Markham and having read the bibliography about

him and his works, I suspect

a source might be Maison Rustique which he translated into English. It

would be someplace to look.

I also think that there is also a connection with the burning of

heretics, but that might well be the case of modern

scholars using the word to describe the ways in which people were

tortured and the marks that were left.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:08:38 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

After reading Markham, I would say the antecedents of carbonados are

Italian.

Two recipes in Martino's Libro de arte coquinaria have marked similarities

to Markham's description, per fare carbonata di carne salata and per fare

brasole di carne di vitella. Both of these recipes appear in Platina, which

means they would have had wide dissemination in Europe, through the various

translations and prinitings of De Honesta Volputate and, possibly, the

Epulario. I have not verified that these recipes made it into the later

work.

I haven't done anything with the veal cutlet recipe, but I have adapted the

carbonata recipe for feast.

The carbonata recipe is as follows:

Per fare carbonata, togli la carnat salata che vergellata di grasso et magro

enseme, et tagglia in fetta, et ponile accocere ne la padella et non le

lassare troppo cosere. Dapoi mittele in un piatello et gettavi sopra un

pocho, di succharo, un pocho di cannelia, et un pocho di petrosillo tagliato

menuto. Et similmente poi fare di summata o prosutto, giongendoli in scambio

d'aceto del sucho d'aranci, o limoni, quel che piu ti placesse, et farratte

meglio beverre.

To make carbonata, take salt meat layered with lean and fat, and cut it in

slices, and put it in a pan to cook; do not let it overcook. Then put it on

a plate and sprinkle it with vinegar, a little sugar, a little cinnamon, and

a little finely chopped parsley. And you can do the same to prepare salt

pork or ham, using orange or lemon juice in place of vinegar, whichever you

prefer; it will make you drink all the better.

Carbonata

8 thin slices of ham (air or salt cured for preference)

1 teaspoon sugar

1/4 teaspoon cinnamon

1 Tablespoon finely chopped parsley

3 Tablespoons wine vinegar, bitter orange juice or lemon juice

Lightly brown the meat in an ungreased skillet and transfer to a platter.

Sprinkle the sugar, cinnamon and vinegar or juice over the meat

Stir the spices and vinegar or juice together in the skillet and pour over

the meat.

Sprinkle parsley on the meat.

Serves eight.

In Platina the two recipes are 6.26 and 6.28.

Bear

Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:16:34 -0400

From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 2, 2008, at 12:24 PM, Ginny Beatty wrote:

<<< I'm working on my article for Artes Draconis on

carbonadoes/carbonados/charbonados. Markham (English Housewife)

states that this particular cooking technique is French in its origin.

However, the only French reference I've been able to find is a list

of foods in a Francois Rabelais story from 1532. >>>

There's an article in Davidson's Oxford Companion to Food, in which

the author states that the name may be derived from French, but the

dish, perhaps, is not. He describes both French and Flemish carbonades

(which is a stew with onions and beer, good stuff) and includes our

Markham-based carbonadoes as being etymologically related, and goes on

to quote a 19th-century English text which states the broiled dish is

purely English and unrelated to anything French, Spanish, or Italian,

or any of those suspect Continental origins.

Davidson goes on to state that in the interest of a fusion theory

where everybody is right (yeah, that always works out!), he says he

expects the name is derived from first the browning process applied to

meat before braising (which he suggests would have been over

charcoal), and later to meat being browned in a pan before braising,

and only later to the stewing process overall.

I don't really buy this theory, especially since I think it's far more

likely something charcoal burners cooked over a slow-burning fire

(nobody suggests spaghetti carbonara is grilled over charcoal, do

they?).

Sometimes there simply aren't any simple, logical answers that are

consistent with all the other answers.

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:08:29 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

The Spanish form of the word is carbonado and appears in John Minshue's

revision of "Percyvall's Dictionarie in Spanish and English" (1599). The

Italian form is carbonata and the French carbonade.

The is another quote which equates carbonadoes with rashers from John Lyly's

"Sapho and Phao" (1591) II iii 175, "If I venture ... to eat a rasher on the

coles, a carbonado."

Bear

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:35:46 -0400

From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Rumpolt's _Ein New Kochbuch_ has many references to "Karwenada" which means Carbonado. In one recipe (Kalb 32) it is spelled both "Karwenada" and "Karbenada".

Karwenada of mutton, grouse, sturgeon, pheasant, pork, veal, piglet, eagle, salmon, and probably others I've not yet transcribed. Also a Karwenada subtlety of sugar.

http://www.geocities.com/ranvaig/medieval/EinNewKochbuch.pdf (this is out of date, I need to update it).

Also Gwen Cat posted this when I asked about Karwenada

http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org/2007-March/008281.html

<<< Karwenada is a variant of Carbonado, also Karbanart,

Karbenart and Karwanart. >>>

Giano has a reference to Karbenart from Franz de Rontzier

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Gianos_12thnight.htm

And the word Karwanart has a lot of Kurdish hits. Not sure if its related or not, but Rumpolt has other recipes influenced by the middle east.

Ranvaig

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 21:02:23 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< And the word Karwanart has a lot of Kurdish hits. Not sure if its related

or not, but Rumpolt has other recipes influenced by the middle east.

Ranvaig >>>

Karwan is a Kurdish surname. The karwanart references I looked at appear to

be for an artists association and an Afgahni singer. The word forms we've

been working with are from the Latin "carbo-." I don't think there is a

direct correlation, merely a coincidence of spelling.

Bear

Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:52:13 -0700

From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Florio (1598 English Italian Dictionary) defines is thus - Carbonata,

a carbonada, meate broiled upon the coles, a rasher.

Riely in The Oxford Companion to Italian Food has no reference for

Carbonata.

I have reviewed the 1598 Epulario and it skips the two Platina

recipes entirely. I have not been able to locate the original Italian

Epulario (library is in a mess!) but will continue my search and let

you know.

Eduardo

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 06:36:44 +0000 (GMT)

From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

--- ranvaig at columbus.rr.com <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com> schrieb am Mi, 3.9.2008:

<<< Rumpolt's _Ein New Kochbuch_ has many references to

"Karwenada" which means Carbonado. In one recipe

(Kalb 32) it is spelled both "Karwenada" and

"Karbenada".

Karwenada of mutton, grouse, sturgeon, pheasant, pork,

veal, piglet, eagle, salmon, and probably others I've

not yet transcribed. Also a Karwenada subtlety of sugar.

http://www.geocities.com/ranvaig/medieval/EinNewKochbuch.pdf

(this is out of date, I need to update it).

Also Gwen Cat posted this when I asked about Karwenada

http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org/2007-March/008281.html

> Karwenada is a variant of Carbonado, also Karbanart,

> Karbenart and Karwanart.

Giano has a reference to Karbenart from Franz de Rontzier

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Gianos_12thnight.htm >>>

Actually, I translated the chapter for the Baelfyr a few years ago. I thought it was online - if not, I'll happily share it. It wopmn't be much help, though, it's all late and far from Italy or France.

<<< And the word Karwanart has a lot of Kurdish hits. Not sure

if its related or not, but Rumpolt has other recipes

influenced by the middle east. >>>

That would be extremely unlikely. The b-w substitution is not that uncommon in Germany, and period cookbook often make a right hash out of borrowed names (chickens in cominee become chicken 'in commune' and blancmanger a 'blawmensir'). Linguistically, Rumpolt seemed to have more Italian influences and de Rontzier more French, but here they both get it equally wrong.

Giano

Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:29:25 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Before Markham was ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Other English references/recipes that predate Markham include:

To make carbonados of Mutton.

Cut a Leg of Mutton in thin fillets, and to make it tender chop it on

both the sides with the back of a knife, so that they be not chopped

thorow, then salt them well and lay them on a grediron, and broil them

till they be inough, and with Vinagre and minced onions serve them forth.

/A Book of Cookrye/, by A. W., London, 1591.

http://jducoeur.org/Cookbook/Cookrye.html

Michael Best cites this 1591 edition but of course the book was first

published in 1584, so that makes it even earlier.

---

Plat's Delightes for Ladies has a recipe in his cookery section that reads:

26 How to avoid smoke, in broiling of Bacon, Carbonado, &c

(I won't copy this recipe out because I'm sure people have Plat at hand.)

Michael Best in his footnotes for his edition of The English Housewife notes that the smoke taste wasn't always sought, so our modern tastes that like smoke in BBQ may be off from what they would have wanted in Elizabethan England. Again it would predate Markham.

Just about the same time as Markham, John Murrell published his A New Booke of Cookerie. The 1617 edition of that according to Michael Best contains all the

ADDITIONS recipes that appear on pages 93-94 of his edition of Markham. The online edition of Murrell is a 1615 and doesn't seem to have these recipes.

One website that comes up that covers the entire subject that hasn't

been mentioned is http://www.3owls.org/sca/cook/medievalbraai.htm

It cites first all this person:

Master Gideanus Tacitus Adamantius, "Carbonadoes: a medieval barbecued

meat dish." http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/Carbonadoes-art.html

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:07:51 -0400

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Can you identify the food?

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com> wrote:

<<< Pomelos are introduced later too.

Their skin tends to be more greenish.

Like Bear, I would guess it's a Citron. I've seen both. >>>

I am 95% sure that there is a recipe involving pomelos in Granado

(1599). I'll check when I get home.

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:23:35 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Before Markham was ISO carbonado references.

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

And of course Stuart Peachey has a chapter on the topic in his

title: The Book of Frying and Grilling 1580-1660.

Johnnae

Ginny Beatty wrote:

<<< I'm working on my article for Artes Draconis on

carbonadoes/carbonados/charbonados. Markham (English Housewife) states

that this particular cooking technique is French in its origin. >>>

Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 22:11:12 -0600

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Barbeque sauce

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Barbecuing, in the original form, is a method of slow cooking/smoking meat

over a direct heat source. Rubs and sauces are optional. If you look at

Martino's recipe, the meat is fried rather than broiled, as are Markham's

carbonado tongues. Markham also roasts meat for carbonandoes over a drip

pan and with a reflection plate behind the meat offset from the heat rather

than on it. The stated goal is to keep the smoke of the drippings from

rising about the meat and making it stink. The smoke flavor is part of the

desired effect of barbecuing.

In my view, carbonadoes are not barbecue, however the meat sauces used with

carbonadoes may be forrunners of the modern barbecue sauce.

If I were looking for a European ancestor to barbecue, I'd try this little

recipe from Harleian MS 279:

To make Steyks of venson or bef. Take Venyson or Bef, & leche & gredyl it up

broun; then take Vynegre & a litel verious, & a lytil Wyne, and put pouder

perpir ther-on y-now, and pouder Gyngere; and atte the dressoure straw on

pouder Canelle y-now, that the steyks be al y-helid ther-wyth, and but a

litel Sawce; & then serue it forth.

Bear

<<< I posited in my upcoming Artes Draconis article that Carbonadoes was a form of bbq technique - overall the techniques I found broke down into - have a sauce or spice rub, get a big chunk of meat of some kind (beef, venison,

etc.), cook with indirect heat, constantly baste, serve with sauce.

I'm from Ohio. We don't have native BBQ and have import our BBQ styles.

Personally, I'm a fan of Memphis dry rubs over KC wet sauces, and I like

the vinegary taste of the Carolina bbq style.

Gwyneth >>>

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:53:05 -0500

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carbonado references was BBQ stuff

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

When this question was brought up on MK Cooks back in

September 2008 I spent some time looking for references on

Carbonados. This was posted to MK Cooks back in September.

Perhaps you'd like this for the Florilegium files.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

-----

Carbonado

Here's a quick search and a few quotations as regards the

Subject of Carbonado.

Actually this relates back to another earlier question

regarding Gascoigne, George, Turberville, George, and Fouilloux, Jacques du,

The noble arte of venerie or hunting of 1575.

Because on page 128 of that book one finds:

You shall also present before the Prince or chiefe personage in field,

some fine sauce made with wine and spices in a fayre dishe vpon a

chafyngdishe and coles, to the end that as he or she doth behold the

huntesman breaking vp of the Deare, they may take theyr pleasure of the

sweete deintie morsels, and dresse some of them on the coles, makyng

them Carbonadies, and eating them with their sauce, reioycing and

recreating their noble mindes with rehersall whiche hounde hunted best,

and which huntesman hunted moste like a woodman:

The Morgan Library that just ended is here

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/exhibition.asp?id=2

So if you dig up a copy of The noble arte of venerie, it's in there;

there even may be an Illustration. I didn't check that yet.

------------------

The glossary at Prospect Press lists:

CARBONADE or to CARBONADO: "is to cut and slash any cold joynt of Meat

and Salt it and then broil it before the Fire" (Randle Holme). (Richard

Bradley, 1736)

CARBONADOE, 166-8: a method of cooking meat by broiling, for example on

a grid-iron before the fire or over hot embers, with prior slashing to

increase the speed with which heat penetrates the meat. In Coriolanus,

Shakespeare wrote: "He scotcht him and notcht him like a Carbinado."

Some but not all of May?s examples are explicit about the prior

slashing. (Robert May, 1660/1685)

Holme and his The academy of armory are from 1688.

(See my TI article on Holme for more on what this book is.)

His exact text says:

Carbonado

is to cut and slash any cold joynt o? Meat and Salt it and then broiled

it before the Fire: or Raw peeces of Meat thus broiled on the Fire, are

termed of some Carbonadoes (of Beef because that is most used so) others

call them Rashers of Beef.

----------

Under CARBONADOE I've found it listed in a list in the book Gargantua and Pantagruel By Fran?ois Rabelais, Thomas Urquhart, Peter Anthony Motteux

Published by Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2005

It appears there among the list that reads:

Slipslop. Grisp Pig. Greasy Slouch. Fatgut. Bray- mortar. Lick-sawce.

Hog's Foot. Hodgepodge. Carbonadoe. Sop in Pan. Pick-foul. Mustard-pot.

Calfs Pluck. Hogs Haslet. Chopt-phiz. Gallymaufrey. Gully Guts. Rinse

Pot. Drink-spiller. Pudding-bag. Pig-sticker. Cold Eel. Thorn

So you might look to Rabelais also.

----------------

Ran it through a variety of Dictionaries

John Florio A vvorlde of wordes, or Most copious, and exact dictionarie

in Italian and English, collected by Iohn Florio.

from 1598.

Florio lists the following:

* Brasuolare, to frie, or broyle in steakes or collops.

* Brasuole, steakes, collops, rashers, or car|bonados. Also a kinde

of hose or slops so called.

Carbonaia a cole-pit or place where coles are made.

Carbonare, * to besmeare as black as coles, to besmother.

* Carbonaro, a collier.

Carbon?ta , a carbonada,meate broiled vpon the coles, a rasher.

* Incarbonare, to blacke, to besmeare with coales. Also to broile

vpon the coales, to make a carbonado ?

* Incarbonata, a ? carbonado of broyled meate, a rasher on the coales.

------

Carbonado, (Ital.) a rasher or collop of meat, a Gash in the flesh. is

how it is defined in The new world of English words, or, A general

dictionary from 1658.

------

Carbonado, I. a gash in the flesh; also a piece of flesh broild on the

Coals. An English dictionary explaining the difficult terms 1677.

----

CARBONADO, broiled meat. (Span., - L.) Properly ? a rasher.' Cotgrave,

s. v. carbonade, explains it by ' a carbonadoe, a rasher on the coales.'

Used by Shak. Cor. iv. 5. 199. ? Span, carbonado, carbonado, meat

broiled on a gridiron ; properly a pp. from a verb carbonar*, to

broil. ? Span, carbon, charcoal, coal. ? Lat. ace. carbonem, coal; from

nom. carbo. See above. Der. carbonado, verb ; K. Lear, ii. 2.41.

from

An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language

By Walter William Skeat

Published by Clarendon press, 1893

---

Another dictionary Huloets dictionarie newelye corrected from 1572 lists:

under broyled and burned the following:

* Broyled.Carbonatus, a, um.* Tostus, ta, tum. Brusl?, rosti. S.

* Burned lyke to a cole.Carbonatus, Carbunculatus, a, um. *

* Burned rostemeate on the spitte. Subuerbusta.

Oxford Premium Online lists this meaning

*carbonade* A carbonade is a Flemish dish of beef and onions braised in

beer. The word was probably borrowed into French from Italian

/carbonata/, which goes back ultimately to Latin /carb/, ?charcoal? and

referred originally to the way in which the meat was grilled over

charcoal to seal it before being stewed.

"carbonade" /An A-Z of Food and Drink/. Ed. John Ayto. Oxford University

Press, 2002.

( viande grill?e ) carbonado. in their French-English dictionary

And Now for OED---

OED lists

*carbo'nado**,* sb.1 Obs. Also 7 carbinado, charbonado. [ad. Sp.

/carbonada/ `a Carbonado on the coles' (Minsheu) = Ital. /carbonata/,

Fr. /carbonade/ (Cotgrave); see -ado

] A piece of fish, flesh, or fowl, scored across and grilled or broiled

upon the coals. Often transf.

* *1586* Marlowe /1st Pt. Tamburl./ iv. iv. 47, I will make thee

slice the brawns of thy arms into carbonadoes and eat them.

* *1591* Lyly /Sapho/ ii. iii. 175 If I venture..to eate a rasheron

the coales, a carbonado.

* *1607* Shaks. /Cor./ iv. v. 199 He scotcht him, and notcht him

like a carbinado.

* *1651* Markham /Eng. Housw./ 70 Charbonadoes.

As a verb

*carbo'nado*

ka/enticons/macr.gif/enticons/ipa151.gifb/o/n/e/enticons/macr.gif/i.d/o/,

v. arch. [f. carbonado

sb.1 ]

*1. * trans. To make a carbonado of; to score across and broil or grill.

* *1611* Shaks. /Wint. T./ iv. iv. 268 How she long'd to eate Adders

heads, and Toads carbonado'd.

* *C. 1630* Jackson /Creed/ iv. cvii. Wks. 1844 III. 105

Having..lastly his raw bulk broiled or carbonadoed quick.

*2. * transf. To cut, slash, hack.

* *1596* Nashe /Saffron Walden/ 20, I am the man will deliuer himto

thee to be scotcht and carbonadoed.

* *1605* Shaks. /Lear/ ii. ii. 41 Draw, you Rogue, or Ile so

carbonado your shanks.

*carbo'nadoed* ppl. a., *carbo'nadoing* vbl. sb.

* *1601* Shaks. /All's Well/ iv. v. 107 Your carbinado'd face.

* *1615* Markham /Eng. Housew./ ii. ii. (1668) 78 The manner of

carbonadoing.

--------------------

A literature search turns up quotes like these:

------

then must they haue new deuises to procure appetite. If y^e wyne mislike

them, though they be ready to burst, yet must they eate some straunge

meate, as either a Carbonado, or the verie snuffe of a Candle, or a

pickled hering, and I wote not what else; so that to all seeming they

meane rather to murther themselues, than to haue any honestie in them.

Nowe let vs looke to the course of the Text, page 1036

from The sermons of M. Iohn Caluin vpon the fifth booke of Moses called

Deuteronomie Translated out of French by Arthur Golding. 1583

---

Yea, & more then that, in their Musaph or Alcoran they haue these

words: If men knew, how heauenly a thing it were to distribute almes,

they would not spare their owne flesh, but would euen teare the same,

and slice it into carbonadoes, to giue it vnto the poore. The Papists,

that are ouerwhelmed in superstition and idolatry, do hope (although

sacrilegiously) to be saued by their almes-giuing.

Vaughan, William. The golden-groue moralized in three bookes. 1600

---

Away you I slington whitepot, hence you happerarse, you barly pudding

ful of magots, you broyld carbonado, auaunt, auaunt, auoide

Mephostophilus: shall Sim Eyre leaue to speake of you Ladie

Thomas Dekker. The shomakers holiday, 1600 Dekker uses the word quite

commonly as in later:

And alas, when our captiuated corps are yeelded to those scale|hunters,

then begins the Tamberlaine-Ignis to broile our barke, and carbonadoe

our well-compacted limbes. In heat has this hunter offended, but we will

torment him in another kinde. Oh, let our frosten nature benumme the

passages of his veynes, ...

Dekker, Thomas. The Owles almanacke prognosticating many strange

accidents from 1618

-----

and here is even a book that carries it in the title.

London and the countrey carbonadoed and quartred into seuerall

characters. By D. Lupton. 1632.

-----

Speaking of Pays de Vaux he said that it was a countrey where they made

goodly carbonadoe's of witches, and at that he laughed very loud. He

delighted much in jesting

Perrault, Fran?ois, The devill of Mascon, 1658.

----

Huge numbers of recipes in Woolley's volumes and also in The

Accomplish'd lady's delight in 1675.

Knowing quite a bit about Markham and having read the bibliography about

him and his works, I suspect a source might be Maison Rustique which he translated into English. It would be someplace to look.

I also think that there is also a connection with the burning of

heretics, but that might well be the case of modern

scholars using the word to describe the ways in which people were

tortured and the marks that were left.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

2 September 2008

Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:26:54 -0300

From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carbonado references was BBQ stuff

To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Johnna Holloway wrote:

<<< CARBONADO, broiled meat. (Span., - L.) Properly ? a rasher.' Cotgrave,

s. v. carbonade, explains it by ' a carbonadoe, a rasher on the coales.'

Used by Shak. Cor. iv. 5. 199. ? Span, carbonado, carbonado, meat

broiled on a gridiron ; properly a pp. from a verb carbonar*, to

broil. ? Span, carbon, charcoal, coal. ? Lat. ace. carbonem, coal; from

nom. carbo. See above. Der. carbonado, verb ; K. Lear, ii. 2.41. from

An Etymological Dictionary of the English Language

By Walter William Skeat Published by Clarendon press, 1893 >>>

Covarrubias in 1611 wrote: CARBONADA. Meat that after being boiled is

browned over red hot coals or burning coals. Normally blancmange is made

with "carbonada". p. 302, a 52-55.

Suey