chopped-meat-msg - 3/22/17

Period chopped meat. Differences between chopped and ground meat.

NOTE: See also the files: meat-rolled-msg, meatloaf-msg, minced-meat-art, roast-meats-msg, pickled-meats-msg, steaks-msg, whole-pig-msg, Braised-Beef-art.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with separate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 07:26:01 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: Steak Tartar (Was Re: [Sca-cooks] Capers caper)

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> We have had discussions here previously about how close hamburger or
> ground meats approximate the similar period meat treatment, which
> would be finely chopping it with a knife, which you seem to have
> actually done.
>
> How would you compare the textures? How much time does it take you
> to finely chop it enough?

The main areas of difference are these, as far as I'm concerned. Others
may have other issues. In ground meat, the connective tissue (which of
course is rather low in a beef tenderloin for the tartare example) is
sort of pulled apart, often separated from the meat, and sometimes
gathered together by the grinder, sometimes not. Essentially, when you
do get gristle, it tends to be... impressive. When you chop the meat,
everything gets chopped. Same for  at . The  at  is often obliterated to a
greasy smear by a grinder; chopped  at  is merely chopped, mixed with the
meat, and does its job to keep the whole thing moist. (Recall that
sausage recipes generally call for hard back or kidney  at , sometimes
even cubed by hand, rather than soft or, G-d help us, rendered  at , as a
rule. The logic is the same.)

In short, chopped meat, while perhaps being more granular in texture
than ground meat, is also somehow more homogeneous, overall. Yes, it is
a paradox, but true nonetheless. And the little granules feel different
in the mouth than the semi-crushed, semi-extruded threads from a grinder do.

Adamantius


Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 14:22:12 -0400
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Steak Tartar + Chocolate mousse recipe

I favor the chinese 2 cleaver method on a very solid butchers
block. Place meat on block, clear the area of enquiring toddlers
and nosy roommates and holding the cleavers in paralell, start
chopping, and periodically scrape the pile of meat back into the
center to get the bigger bits. My wrists are going, but Rob can
total out a sizeable hunk of meat in fairly short order.
Especially great if you are at a camping event and want to make
anything with any sort of finely minced meat. The size of the
meat fragments is actually fairly controlable with practice.

margali


Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 14:27:44 +0000
From: nickiandme at att.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Meep! - Needing quick beef pastry recipe!
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org (Group-SCACooks)

<deleted>
Filling:
	1 lb. ground mutton or beef
<more deleted>

I find it interesting that they say ground mutton or beef.  I prefer to  
use the medieval shredded meats.  It gives the end product a totally  
different texture and even flavor.  The flavor seems to be more intense  
in shredded meats with the same amount of spices as does that of  
commercially ground meats.

Kateryn de Devleyn


Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 10:37:19 -0400
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meep! - Needing quick beef pastry recipe!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I have found a HUGE difference in both texture and flavor between  
using preground raw meats and boiling then grinding/shreading chunk or  
whole meats.
When the recipe calls for boiling meat and "smyting" it "small" to be  
mixed with other ingredients, like eggs etc, I think that if they are  
boiled then shredded the meat is superior.
Especially if you are boiling in a good broth...

If you take the time to boil chunks of beef in a beef broth, then  
fishing them out and cutting them in 1/4 inch slices across the grain,  
they fairly come apart completely, and will mix really well into a nice  
pastry filling.

Capt Elias


Date: Tue, 27 Jul 2004 11:40:09 -0400
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Meep! - Needing quick beef pastry recipe!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Jul 27, 2004, at 10:27 AM, nickiandme at att.net wrote:
> <deleted>
> Filling:
> 	1 lb. ground mutton or beef
> <more deleted>
>
> I find it interesting that they say ground mutton or beef.  I prefer
> to use the medieval shredded meats.  It gives the end product a
> totally different texture and even flavor.  The flavor seems to be
> more intense in shredded meats with the same amount of spices as does
> that of commercially ground meats.

Being the "they" in question, I originally made this recipe with time
and ease of preparation in mind.  Modernly, it is far quicker and
easier to work with ground beef than it is to mince the same quantity
of meat.  All that being said, there *is* a notable difference in
flavor and texture.  I have made this recipe both ways (and with both
beef and mutton) and I also prefer the minced beef to the ground - but
it's still quite tasty the other way.

I'll be updating the recipe to reflect all this - thanks for pointing
it out!

- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)
   http://www.medievalcookery.com/


Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:39:10 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Problems with sausage
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Gunther wrote:
> I also plan on not grinding this entry, since it is for a judged  
> A&S but instead mincing and pounding the meat.

You might like to look at the texture that the Hampton Court Cooks have
achieved when they mince meat into teensy tiny pieces.  There are some
photos on their web site (www.tudorcook.blogspot.com).  I'm not sure if
there's a video of them doing the chopping but I think there might be.
It's really amazing the texture they got!

Alys K.


Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 08:46:30 -0600
From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sausage results
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> So how different are the machined sausage and the hand-chopped
> sausage meats right now (before cooking)?

There isn't much difference. Once the sausage stuffer comes I'll
defrost the hand chopped meat and give it another mincing to
blend the ingredients a bit more. The hand chopping almost
comes out like a paste with the pounding even from a very
sharp knife. (My 10" Shun)

> I understand that you still need to stuff the hand-chopped  
> sausage and that may enlarge or decrease the perceived  
> differences. However, we have discussed this exact same thing  
> previously, and it would be nice to hear more from someone who  
> has actually done both methods with similar ingredients.

That will indeed be a small part of my display.

I also have researched period instructions to chop or grind meat. And
I've found that it appears to be pretty much the author's preference on
which is done. I'd say chopping has a slight edge (har har) but there is
almost an equal case for grinding. Either way, it would be a lot of work
for a large amount of sausage.

> Yes, I've wondered about that at A&S displays when the populace was  
> allowed to sample. I've wondered whether there would be enough  
> for the judges, and therefor tried a lot less than I'd like to have.

As I was stuffing the sausage and making the quart of mustard I had
to keep telling myself that I don't need to do feast amounts for an
A&S display!
But there should be enough for people to sample.

Display:
Zervelat
Mustard from Le Menaigier de Paris
Cheese
Manchet roll
Capon Stwd from the Harleian manuscript
Beef Pottage (Egredouncye) from Two 15th Century Cookery Books
Boiled Salad from Markham
Makke from The Forme of Cury
New Peas from Le Menaigier de Paris
Small Mead from Digby

All done as period as possible, even in period cookware (on my electric
stove).

> Stefan

Gunthar


Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 09:07:55 -0500
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Texas Chili Was Re: OT: GoTV
	NowBarbequeSauceVariations
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< If you want to domesticate your chili, try beef and pork.  A two to one mix works nicely.

Bear >>>

And you don't have to use ground meat.  A lot of recipes call for chunked
meat instead of ground.  And, if you prefer something finer than chunked
meat, try shredding it in a food processor.  I've discovered that the taste
and mouth feel of some dishes (Pies of Paris, for example) is much better
that way.

Kiri


Date: Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:17:37 -0700
From: aeduinofskye <aeduinofskye at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sausages

This past Saturday I took my first sausage 
attempt to Caid Fall Crown Tourney for a public 
sampling.  My curious mind wondered how different 
is chopping the meat with a knife than using a 
food processor or a meat grinder.  So I made 
three batches of the same kind of the sausage, 
each with different cutting method.

The full write up is here:  http://aeddie.livejournal.com/371727.html

AEduin


Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2010 11:10:24 -0500
From: Michael Gunter <dookgunthar at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sausages

<<< This past Saturday I took my first sausage 
attempt to Caid Fall Crown Tourney for a public 
sampling. My curious mind wondered how different 
is chopping the meat with a knife than using a 
food processor or a meat grinder. So I made 
three batches of the same kind of the sausage, 
each with different cutting method.

The full write up is here: http://aeddie.livejournal.com/371727.html

AEduin >>>

Very nice. I learned a lot when learning how to do sausage, mainly by trial and
error. Lots of error.
But at Kingdom A&S I entered zervelat as part of my "Mercenary Captain's Dinner"
display and I provided sausages both ground by machine and minced by hand.
I did like the texture of the hand minced forcemeat better but the difference is
not so great that I'd forgo the grinder for large batches. The meat was not only
minced by hand but was also stuffed using a sausage funnel. The period instructions were to "pour" the meat into the casing and I figured this was just an expression.

But I found out that it really helped to have the funnel about two feet above the work surface with the casing hanging down. I did pretty much "pour" the meat
down the casing and ease it to the ends. It made the work much easier.

My favorite comment was from the two young men who told me that "definitely
the handmade sausage was a lot better than the store-bought". Um...no, they
were both homemade, one was just made by machine.

It was surprising how quickly the meat went from large chunks to manageable
forcemeat. I didn't use the double cleaver method that is popular with many
cooks who create mince but using a large chef's knife and the rocking method
produced very good results.

Gunthar 			  		 


Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2015 11:02:23 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
From: <lilinah at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Who invented the hamburger?

I'd say hamburgers were invented at least in the 13th c... from the so-called anonymous Andalusian cookbook:

A Type of Ahrash Called Isfiriya
This is the recipe used by Sayyid Abu al-Hasan and others in Morocco, and they called it isfiriya. Take red lamb, pound it vigorously and season it with some murri naqi', vinegar, oil, pounded garlic, pepper, saffron, cumin, coriander, lavender, cinnamon, ginger, cloves, chopped  at , and meat with all the gristle removed and pounded and divided, and enough egg to envelop the whole. Make small round qursas (flatbreads) out of them about the size of a palm or smaller, and fry them in a pan with a lot of oil until they are browned. Then make for them a sauce of vinegar, oil, and garlic, and leave some of it without any sauce: it is very good.

This is the third recipe in the 13th century anonymous Andalusian cookbook. It is the second one for Ahrash, and there is another Ahrash recipe, #78. This one is identified as coming from Morocco, although the others are not identified with a particular region.

They are also quite good with Sinab, mustard sauce
http://daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Cookbooks/Andalusian/andalusian2.htm#Heading81

[I say "so-called" because according to Nawal Nasrallah, in personal e-mail exchanged between us in the summer of 2008, the actual title of the book is Anw?? al-Saydala f? Alw?n al-At?ima, which I translate as Phamacopeoia of the Preparation of All Kinds of Food.]

Urtatim

<the end>
Edited by Mark S. Harris	chopped-meat-msg	7 of 7