Title: horse-recipes-msg
Subject: Period horse recipes. Referances.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval horse recipe period food Mongol

horse-recipes-msg – 12/13/13

Period horse recipes. References.

NOTE: See also the files: exotic-meats-msg, fd-Mongols-msg, fd-Turkey-msg,  kumiss-msg, horses-msg, food-sources-msg.

************************************************************************
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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:43:05 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Society Equestrian Newsletter! (fwd)

I really have to worry when the equestrian notices show up on the cooks' list.
We just voted against use of horses for human consumption here in
California.

Okay, it's period.  The Bayeaux Tapestry has a panel showing a cook leading
several animals off to the rotisserie, and one of the food-beasts is clearly a
horse.  A fat little pony, clearly not a Knight's Charger.  However... just
because it's period, doesn't mean I want to eat it.

Lady Selene Colfox, Caid
not an equivore
selene at earthlink.net

Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:48:25 EST
From: korrin.daardain at juno.com (Korrin S DaArdain)
Subject: Re: SC - Horse (Recipes)

On Wed, 11 Nov 1998 17:05:19 EST LrdRas at aol.com writes:

<SNIP>

>Horse, cat, rat , guinea pig and any type of recipe served in period
>is appropriate for this list, IMO. Many of them have been served and are
>eaten by some on this list. Although you personally may not choose to eat them,
>that is not a platform from which to insist others don't and certainly is not
>any reason that discussion and research into their preparation and service
>can or should be stifled.
>
>Ras

Sorry, I don't have any recipes for cat, rat, or guinea pig. But I do
have a few for horse.

So now that the horse is here let's cook it up!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Kazy (Horse Sausage) (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making:
        5 kg of kazy
        350 g of salt
        10 g of black ground pepper
        a garlic
For serving the table:
        100 g of kazy
        0,25 of an onion
        2 table-spoons of green canned peas
        From the carcass of the slaughtered horse the ribs with flesh are
cut off and the blood is let trickle down for 5-7 hours. The guts are
washed well and kept in salt water for 1-2 hours. The slightly dried up
kazy are cut in strips along the ribs: the brand kazy are cut in narrow
strips and the narrow ones - in broad strips. The interrib tissue should
be cut with a shapp knife removing cartilages and without crumbling the
fat. Then the meat is salted and peppered, finely cut garlic is added and
the meat is wrapped up in a napkin for 2-3 hours.
        Then kazy are put in guts the ends of which are tied up. After
this kazy can be dried, boiled and smoked. It is better to dry kazy by
warm weather hanging them out for a week in a sunny aired place.
        It is best to smoke kazy in dew smoke at the temperature of
50-60_ c during 12-18 hours and dry them up during 4-6 hours at 12_c.
        Kazy should be boiled for 2 hours in a broad vessel on slow fire.
That kazy should not burst during boiling they should be pierced at
several places.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Shuzhuk (Horse Sausage) (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making:
        5 kg of horse-flesh
        5 kg of suet
        350 g of salt
        10 g of black ground pepper
        50 g of garlic
        greens to taste
        The prepared meat is rubbed with salt and kept fur 1-2 days in a
cool place at the temperature of 3-4_c. Guts are washed and kept for some
time in salt water. Meat and fat are cut in small pieces and mixed.
Garlic, pepper and salt are added and all this is mixed again. Then the
guts are stuffed, its both ends are tied up with a string and they are
hung out for 3-4 hours in a cool place.
        Shuzhuk is smoked during 12-18 hours over dense smoke at the
temperature of 50-60_c, then dried up at 12_c for 2-3 days. Dried or
smoked shuzhuk is boiled on slow fire during 2-2,5 hours. Before serving
the table shuzhuk is cut in thin slices to 1 cm thick, layed out on a
plate, decorated with rings of onion and greens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Zhaya (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making:
        5 kg of zhaya
        125 of salt
        Zaya is made of the horse's hip. The upper muscular layer with
fat to 10 cm thick is cut off. The pieces of meat are salted using
salting mature, layed out in a pan for salting. Then it is dried up,
dried, smoked and boiled like zhal. Before serving the table it is cut in
thin slices and decorated with greens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Zhal (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making:
        5 kg zhal
        125 g of salt
        Zhal is an oblong accumulation of fat in the undercrest part of
the horse's neck. It is cut off with a thin flesh layer, rubbed with dry
salting mixture and put in a pan for salting. Then it is dried up during
10 hours.
        Zhal can be smoked and dried. Before boiling zhal ls soaked in
cold water; then it is boiled on slow fire for 2 hours.
        Zhal is served both hot and cold cut in slices, decorated with
rings of onion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Karta (Horse Rectum) (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making one karta:
        100 g of karta
        salt
        green pepper or dill to taste
        The thick part of the rectum is washed without removing fat, then
carefully turned inside out so that the fat should be inside, washed once
more and tied up on both sides.
        Karta can also be dried and smoked. To dry it karta is strewed
with fine salt and kept in a cool place for 1-2 days, then dried up.
Karta is smoked during 24 hours, then dried during 2-3 days. After
washing it well karta is boiled for 2 hours on slow fire. Before serving
the table it is cut in rings and decorated with green pepper or dill.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Sur-Yet (Dried Meat) (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For making:
        5 kg of horse-flesh
        200 g of salt
        Horse-flesh is cut off from bones, tendons, cartilages and fat
are removed and the meat is cut in rectangular pieces 0,5-1 kg each,
salted and kept in a cool place for 5-7 days. Then it is dried up during
10-12 hours. Sur- yet is smoked like zhal and zhaya and consumed only
boiled. Before boiling it is waked in cold water. Sur-yet is boiled to
readiness on slow fire during 2 hours. Before serving the table it is cut
in thin slices, decorated with rings of onion and greens.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Meat in the Kazakh Manner (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
For broth:
        750 g of mutton
        1270 g of horse-flesh
        1200 g of beef
        1-2 onions
        green onions
        salt and spice to taste.
        For dough:
        375 g of flour
        0,3 of a piala of meat broth or water
        2 eggs
        a tea-spoon of salt.
For gravy:
        a piala of broth
        1-2 onions.
        This dish is made of mutton, horse- flesh and beef.
        The prepared and washed pieces of meat are put in a cauldron or
pan with cold water and brought to boiling; then the fire is lessened,
scum removed and boiling on slow fire is continued to meat's readiness.
30-40 minutes before the end of boiling laurel leaf, an onion, peppercorn
and salt to taste are added to the broth.
        While the meat is boiling dough is kneaded; it is left for 30-40
minutes, then rolled in a layer i-1,5 mm thick and cut in squares 8 cm
each. Half an hour before the end of boiling of the meat one can drop in
the broth whole peeled potatoes, boil them to readiness and together with
meat put them in a closed vessel. In a separate small pan onion cut in
rings, salt, pepper and spicy greens are put, covered with fat skimmed
from the hot broth, then the lid is tightly put on and all this is
stewed.
        Square of rolled dough are dropped in boiling broth, boiled to
readiness, layed out on a flat plate and covered with gravy. On top of
them pieces of meat are put (the present-day housewives prefer to cut it
in slices) and on top of it onion rings stewed in fat are put. Along the
edges the dish is decorated with boiled potatoes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Kuyrdak made of Meat (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
        800 g of mutton or beef, or horse- flesh, or camel's flesh, or
saiga's flesh, or wild goat's flesh
        3 onions
        150 g of fat for frying
        250 g of broth
        greens
        salt
        spice and sour cream to taste
For gamish:
        2 kg of potatoes
        150 g of green peas
        250 g of tomatoes
        250 g of carrots.
For marinade:
        a piala of 3% vinegar
        50 g of oil.
        Meat is cut in pieces 30-40 g each and fried in hot fat with
onion and pepper, salted to taste; then laurel leaf and broth are added
and the meat is stewed to readiness.
        If kuyrdak is made of saiga's or wild goat's flesh the meat must
be beforehand soaked in 3% vinegar with addition of a small quantity of
oil for 4-6 hours.
        As garnishes to kuyrdak boiled, fried or stewed with the meat
potatoes, boiled carrots, green peas and tomatoes can be served. The dish
is strewed with greens to taste.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Siberian Meat Dumplings (Kazakh)
        From Kazakhstan National Cooking Web Page
(www.kz/eng/cooking/cooking.html)
        Dough is made of screened flour
        eggs
        water and salt
        After kneading it is left for 30-40 minutes, then rolled in a
thin layer 1,5-2 mm thick and cut in small circles or squares about 50 mm
each; force-meat is put on them and the edges are stuck together.
Siberian meat dumplings are cooked in boiling salted water no more than
5-7 minutes after they come to the surface. They are served in
soup-plates with broth or sour cream.
        Siberian meat dumplings can not only be boiled but also fried to
readiness in geeted melted butter. Fried meat dumplings can be served
with katyk in a piala.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:03:52 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Rendered horse fat

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> Could you post any info on the is subject  to me privately? Historically, the
> consuming of horese meat was very much frowned upon in main stream Europe
> during most of , if not all, of the Middle Ages and this aversion has survived
> in Anglo cultures all around the world to the present day. I have had a VERY
> difficult time finding any information dealing with this subject other than
> personal feelings, gut reactions, and other non-substantive sources.
>
> Ras

Horsemeat has been eaten under various circumstances in Europe more or
less since the domestication of the horse.

It hasn't always been popular, but it is an ancient habit that persists
to the present day, so I'd be very hard put to believe it wasn't eaten
in period. Hey, _people_ were eaten in period Europe.

I believe the major source of a known aversion to horsemeat in the
English-speaking world, anyway, has to do with laws enacted by Norman
English rulers who happened to be, in theory, Christians. I make the
distinction because this is not even remotely one of those cases of
the-evil-Church-trying-to-run-everyone's-life (yawn), but more a
political thing enacted by secular authorities. I gather horse-eating is
associated with certain religious rituals of the pre-Christian
Anglo-Saxons, and prohibiting it by secular authority (in a culture
ruled by cavalry, more or less, mind you) was probably yet another
method of forcing the Saxons to become assimilated. Both Christianity
and Norman law, of course, spread more or less South to North in
England, of, which is perhaps why until at least the early years of this
century it was (and I have no evidence it isn't, still) a pejorative
term in England to refer to Yorkshiremen as "kicker-eaters", "kicker"
being a North Country term for horsemeat.

See James Frazer's "The Golden Bough" for more on this, as well as
Calvin W. Schwabe's "Unmentionable Cuisine"; I think there's something
about this in Tannahill's "Food in History", too. The Larousse
Gastronomique also tells about horse-eating, primarily the use of
horsemeat in various local specialty sausages (donkeys too!) in France
and Spain, as I recall.

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:54:22 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Rendered horse fat

And it came to pass on 13 Feb 99,, that LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> I have had a VERY difficult time finding any information dealing
> with this subject other than personal feelings, gut reactions, and
> other non-substantive sources.

Not a recipe, but...

The _Arte Cisoria_, the 1423 carving manual I mentioned recently,
refers to the cooking of horses.  They are *not* on the list of
quadrupeds commonly eaten in Spain, but they are mentioned in a
later chapter, when the author is giving instructions for carving
specific animals.  Having given the proper carving for various cattle
and deer, he goes on to say [my translation], "The horse, in Turkey
and Tartary, where they eat it as an esteemed food, they roast
whole, and the thighs with the tail and the pelt, until the middle of
the backbone as the better [part], and from it they slice wide and
thin slices, at the feasts, before those of superior station, and
those for the people they leave small."

I do not know how much reliance one can place on the comments
of a 15th century Spaniard regarding Turkish dietary habits.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 22:45:10 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <Thomas.Gloning at germanistik.uni-giessen.de>
Subject: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581

Someone asked whether horsemeat was period. At least there is a recipe
for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and
myself had some discussion about this recipe in march.

Here is a translation into (sort of) English followed by the original
text of the recipe from Rumpolt (fol. LVIa):

*************************************************************
>From a wild horse
You can prepare the meat from a wild horse in a black pepper sauce, and
if you want to have the meat roasted/ salt it well/ for it is a sweet
meat. You can also prepare the roast with garlic. If you want to prepare
it in a pepper sauce, put water onto the meat and salt it well. When its
well cooked pull it on to a board and let it become cold. Make a good
Hungarian pepper sauce with the blood of chicken that is slightly sour
[e.g. by putting apples into the sauce]. When the pepper sauce is
prepared put the meat therein then it becomes good and mellow.
You can also prepare the testicles of a wild horse or
of a native horse in the same way as is earlier described in the recipe
for the testicles of the buck/ram/billy goat.

Von einem wilden Pferdt
VOm wilden Pferdt kan man zurichten in einem schwarzen Pfeffer/ Vnd
wenn du es braten wilt/ so saltz es wol/ denn es ist ein su:esses
Fleisch/ kanst den Braten auch mit Knobloch zurichten.  Wenn man es wil
im Pfeffer kochen/ so setzt mans zu mit Wasser/ wol gesaltzen / wenns
wol gesotten/ so zeucht man es auff ein Bret ausz/ vnd leszts kalt
werden/ Mach ein guten Vngerischen Pfeffer mit Hennenschweisz/ der fein
sa:eurlich ist/ Vnnd wenn der Pfeffer zugericht ist/ so thu das Fleisch
darein/ so wirdt es gut vnd lieblich. Du kanst auch die Geil/ wie von
einem Eynheimischen Pferdt zurichten/ wie vorhin vermeldet ist von der
Bo:eck Geil [= Rumpolt p. XXVb, Nr. 16].
********************************************************

Thomas

Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 23:09:06 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581

nannar at isholf.is writes:
<<  At least there is a recipe
 >for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see:
 >http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and
 >myself had some discussion about this recipe in march.

 Very interesting, but would eating horsemeat not have been strictly
 prohibited at this time by the Church? >>

Not really. The Reformation was well under way  by this time in Germany.
Think, Luther, Huss and many others.

Ras

Date: Fri, 09 Jul 1999 03:25:31 +0200
From: "ana l. valdes" <agora at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581 and the tabou of the horseeating

Thomas wrote:
>Someone asked whether horsemeat was period. At least there is a recipe
>for wild horse in the German cookbook of Marx Rumpolt 1581 [see:
>http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_Rumpolt1.htm]. Gwen-Cat, Lord Ras and
>myself had some discussion about this recipe in march.

In my book, "Betes a Manger, Usages Alimentaires des Francais", it is a
chapter about th evolution of the horseeating. "In the First Centuries
of Christianity it was prohibited to eat horse. The "Feast of the
Horse", a kind of heretical comunion, was practicated by the Asian
barbars (mongols?).
The Pope Gregorius III tells Boniface, the Evangelist of the Germans:
"Tell them to don´t eat horses and impose severe punishments to who does
it, because they are mean and evil."
But in France the horse is eaten in regular basis, in stores called
"chevalines". My book states the horse have a very important place in
the construction of the warrior and the feodal society. Without horses
no knights.

Ana L. Valdés

Date: Fri, 9 Jul 1999 08:32:00 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: horse recipe 1581

>> Very interesting, but would eating horsemeat not have been strictly
>> prohibited at this time by the Church? >>
>
>Not really. The Reformation was well under way  by this time in Germany.
>Think, Luther, Huss and many others.

I know that, but Iceland was fully Lutherean by 1551, when the last Catholic
bishop was beheaded, yet the Church prohibited the eating of horsemeat for
at least 250 years after that.

My information that the eating of horsemeat was strictly prohibited in
France until 1811 comes from the Larousse Gastronomique. When the French
began to eat it, it was sold in special stores (chevalines) by special
horse-butchers to avoid suspicion that it was being passed off as beef.

I´m really curious to know what the situation was in other countries. Was
the eating of horsemeat actually prohibited by law or by the Church?

Nanna

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 12:22:52 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - Horse-eating in Yorkshire???

I don't seem to be able to find the question from the lady who wanted
more information regarding my reference to the alleged pejorative for
Yorkshiremen of "kicker-eater", so I'm playing it by ear here.

I know I've seen this reference in more than one source, but I don't
seem to be able to find anything more concrete than this at the moment--
I thought it'd be in Andre Simon's Concise Encyclopedia of Gastronomy,
but apparently I was mistaken. In any case, here's what I've been able
to find, after a very brief (brief being what I had time for) search:

"       In pre-Christian times, horsemeat eating in northern Europe figured
prominently in Teutonic religious ceremonies, particularly those
associated  with the worship of the god Odin. So much so, in fact, that
in A.D. 732 Pope Gregory III began a concerted effort to stop this pagan
practice, and it has been said that the Icelandic people specifically
were reluctant to embrace Christianity for some time largely over the
issue of their giving up horsemeat. In Sweden these many years later,
horsemeat still outsells lamb and mutton combined.

"       The Angles of England were among those peoples who regarded the horse
as too holy an animal to eat routinely, reserving it for communion
meals, and some believe that this prohibition has carried over into the
strong prejudices in England today against eating horsemeat. It has, of
course, been reinforced by the value of the animal for draft, transport,
and military use, and these values are confusedly mixed with the
religious (just as they have been in many countries also for cattle).
The one area of England where horsemeat is at all commonly eaten today
is Yorkshire. There it is called "kicker", and "kicker-eater" persists
in the rest of England as a derogatory term for Yorkshireman."

                                _Unmentionable Cuisine_, Calvin W. Schwabe, © 1979 Rector and
Visitors of the University of Virginia, pub. 1979 and 1992, University
Press of Virginia, ISBN 0-8139-1162-1

Now, this bit of documentation doesn't necessarily make the statements
contained therein true, nor does anything preclude the possibility that
the other sources I've seen for this information may have taken the
information either from the same unnamed source, or from this book
itself. But, reliable or not, the claim is made.

Adamantius
- --
Phil & Susan Troy

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 12:10:07 -0700 (MST)
From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)
Subject: SC - RE Digest 1934

Not for the faint hearted, but here is a link to a 1581 recipe for horse 
(translated from the German, but not re-created/redacted)

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm

Gwen Catrin von Berlin
Caerthe, Outlands

Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] eating horses and cats, oh my
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 11:02:24 EST
From: <Ldyinnes at aol.com>
To: <ansteorra at ansteorra.org>

I have eaten horse meat.  Several years ago in Lubbock when beef and pork was
much higher in price than it is now, one of the grocery stores was selling
horse meat.  I found it less fat, and reminiscent of venison.  It is
delicious if prepared correctly.  and that was before my sca days.  not
quite medieval tho.

Innes

From: Martina C Grasse <grasse at mscd.edu>
Date: Sun Jul 13, 2003  11:50:16 AM US/Central
To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
Subject: Horse recipe German

the Rumpolt monger again.  From my  usual German 1581 source. 
[From Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch ,c. 1581  - Stefan]

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm

I kept it off list cause it is indeed a squeamish subject.

Gwen Cat

Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 17:15:20 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry...
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,	"SPCA"
	<spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>, <sca-equine at midrealm.org>

Selene, Stefan, In the Florilegium, Selene has the following note 
posted:
>>>>
Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 11:43:05 -0800
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Fw: [Mid] Society Equestrian Newsletter! (fwd)

I really have to worry when the equestrian notices show up on the cooks' list.
We just voted against use of horses for human consumption here in California. Okay, it's period. The Bayeaux Tapestry has a panel showing a cook leading several animals off to the rotisserie, and one of the food-beasts is clearly
a horse. A fat little pony, clearly not a Knight's Charger. However... 
just because it's period, doesn't mean I want to eat it.

Lady Selene Colfox, Caid
not an equivore
selene at earthlink.net
<<<<

That letter has just come up on the SCA-Equestrian List, in a discussion on
the usage of horses in period, and several people are objecting to that
interpretation, since the small horse/pony in question is apparently
carrying a pack similar to the packs larger horses are carrying elsewhere on
the tapestry. Think we want to look at that again (if we can find a picture
of it) and reconsider our interpretations? I would tend to think, not having
seen the picture, that if the poiny is loaded like that, it might not _be_ a
foodstuff, but rather be _carrying_ a foodstuff, but I haven't seen that
section yet, since I'm not into the Tapestry, that when/where, or fiber
arts.

Now, insofar as using horses for meat, I tend to be resistant as I would be
for dogs or cats, but I know it's done, and I have actually tasted horse
meat, but at the very least, we might want to put an addendum into the
Florilegium, stating that that interpretation, at least in that particular
case, is being contested.

Anybody who wants to go look at the Florilegium, the entry is:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/horse-recipes-msg.html

Saint Phlip,
CoDoLDS

Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:15:13 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [SCA Equestrian] Re: minis in period
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,
	<sca-equine at midrealm.org>

> Here is the Bayeux Tapestry section in question-
> Cecily

http://hastings1066.com/bayeux22.shtml

Thanks, Cecily- missed that first time througfh.

OK, I agree with the equestrians. I think that it looks more like the pony
is being used as a beast of burden, bringing foodstuffs to the fire, just
like the bigger horse to the left with the rider, being followed by the
servant farther left, with the beast on his shoulder, or the ones even
further left, who appear to be chasing the cow with evil intent...

Anybody else want to comment further? As a general rule, you don't work an
animal you're about to slaughter. They usually can't be worked, for one
reason or another-untrained, or injured. You certainly don't want to do
anything to make them tougher, and that's one side effect of working 
them.

Saint Phlip,
CoDoLDS

Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 16:44:18 -0700
From: "Patricia Collum" <pjc2 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry...
To: <sca-equine at midrealm.org>, "Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Well, I spent some time going through Ann Hagan's Anglo-Saxon Food and
Drink. It lists horse as a taboo food, likely to only be eaten in times of
want or dearth, such as the time right after the battle of Hastings. Eating
horses was also linked to pagan custom and discouraged by the church, as was
the maiming of horses. It lists the part about German's being discouraged
from their custom of eating horses, and that horses as food were also linked
to Danish custom. Horses were considered too valuable even from a political
and tactical standpoint to be used as food unless no other source of food
was available.

Cecily

Date: Sun, 16 May 2004 19:51:39 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Another look at a
	Florilegiumentry...
To: <spca-wascaerfrig at yahoogroups.com>, SCA-Cooks
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I stand by my original statement. Whilst small pack-ponies are present in
other frames of the Bayeux Tapestry, this one appears to have a different,
um, destiny. Here is a picture of the panel:
http://hastings1066.com/bayeux22.shtml

³HIC EST WADARD. HIC COQUITOR CARO. ET HIC MINISTRAVERUNT MINISTRI.²
[Here is Wadard. Her meat is cooked. And here the servants serve the 
food.]

Here is one man with an ax over his head, about to address the weapon to a
large and a small beeve.  Also, another man with an ax over his shoulder,
leading a small pony.  Yes, there is a basket n his back, but that ax
really looks to me like it¹s about to be used. I feel that this is clearly
destined for the dinner table.  I no more relish the notion of eating the
noble Horse than most other modern North Americans, but I try to keep my own
cutural orientation out of my interpretations of historical chronicles like
these.

Dame Selene Colfox, still in Cai
selene at earthlink.net

From: <VixensMistress at aol.com>
To: <sca-equine at midrealm.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2004 10:38 PM
Subject: [SCA Equestrian] Re: Another look at a Florilegium entry...

> Sorry, I wasn't objecting to the idea of people eating horses in  
> period.
>
> I was objecting to the idea that that particular pack animal/pony was about
> be slaughtered.  It is being led away from the fire, and is working since it
> has the pack saddle on.  The packs even look like they are bulging at the
> bottom, so I think the packs are full.  Thus, to me, it appears the pony/horse 
> is working.
>
> I thought the small ax was a favorite war weapon that wasn't as expensive as
> a sword, and thus it was appropriate to be carried by many of the men/warriors
> in the Bayeux tapestry.  But if the ax is the symbol of a cook/butcher, then
> the Normans sure brought a lot of cooks with them to England.....  But I am
> not a weapons expert, nor am I an expert on the Bayeux Tapestery.
>
> Rachel from Barony Bhakail

Date: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:05:40 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another look at a Florilegium entry...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I just checked an article I remembered on this topic from "Medieval Food
and Drink" series of essays published by the Center for Early
Renaissance Studies at Binghampton University of the University of New
York. The article, entitled "Eating and Drinking in the Bayeux Tapestry"
by Rouben Cholakian, is a discussion of all of the scenes in the
tapestry that deal with food and drink. In the part of the essay where
this specific panel is discussed, he describes the bovines and the pig
being taken to slaughter, mentioning that they seem to be headed in the
wrong direction. He makes no mention of the pony being slaughtered as
well. In fact he totally ignores the presence of the animal, with its
handler, at all. I have to admit I had always thought that it was
carrying stuff in the paniers over its back...rather than being
slaughtered to be part of the feast...but that could be a deduction that
I made based on not being used to seeing horsemeat used as part of a  
meal.

Kiri

From: "Lisa M LeChatton" <llechatton at longcoeur.com>
To: <sca-equine at midrealm.org>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: [SCA Equestrin] Re: Fw: Re: [spca-wascaerfrig] Another 
look at a...

> One would expect someone from the Cooks List to know about St Gregory III
> [731-741]. As Pope, he banned the eating of horse-meat in 732 AD.  Eating
> (and using the more interesting bits and pieces for display) of the horse has
> been documented as part of Celt and Egyptian pagan celebrations. The Papal
> decree was not eased until 1866, when Europe was starving. The ban on eating
> horseflesh is considered one of the reasons that the Icelanders took so long
> to convert - those good Vikings knew hard winters and thought it was a
> wasteful law.
>
> Since the horse does have a pack saddle on - pack animal would be its use.
> Very smart too, he's just the right size for kitchen help.

> Aimee LongCoeur

Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 16:28:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [SCA Equestrian] Re: Fw: Re:
	[spca-wascaerfrig]Another look at a...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> One would expect someone from the Cooks List to know about St Gregory III
> [731-741]. As Pope, he banned the eating of horse-meat in 732 AD. Eating
> (and using the more interesting bits and pieces for display)of the horse has
> been documented as part of Celt and Egyptian pagan celebrations.
>
> Aimee LongCoeur

As an interesting aside, I have recently seen a scholarly suggestion that
the ban had the effect of increasing the horse population leading to greater
use of mounted infantry (Charles the Bald ordered that those who could
afford it send mounted levies) and finally to the knight, a convergence
between religion (the Papal ban), politics (the need for faster moving
troops to control more real estate) and technology (the iron stirrup).

Bear

Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 11:37:48 -0500
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sauerbraten
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

<johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> wrote:
> Culinaria Germany of course mentions that sauerbraten
> was originally made of horsemeat, which kind of throws
> another meat into the pot so to speak...
> This can be found repeated on the web--

Seeing that I have my copy of Rumpoldt sitting here on the table -
here is what he has to say about Horse (and I only know this because
it has a picture of a horse).

Vom wilden Pferdt kan man zurichten in einem schwarken Pfeffer/ Vnd
wenn du es brten wilt / so salk es wol / denn es ist ein susse
Fleisch / kanst den Braten auch mit Knobloch zurichten. Wen man es wil
im Pfeffer Kochen / so sekt mans zu mit Wasser/ wol gesalken / wenns
wol gesotten / so zeucht man es auff ein Bret auss / vnd lessts klt
werden / Mach ein guten Vngerischen Pfeffer mit Hennschweiss / der
fein saurlich ist / Vnnd wenn der Pfeffer zugericht ist/ so thu das
Fleisch darin / so wirdt es gut vnd leibleich. Du kanst auch die Geil/
wie von einem Eynheimischen Pferdt zurichten /wie vorhin vermeldt ist
von Bock Geil.

Never having the desire to prepare horse I have never translated this
section. So here is an on-the-fly wack at it.

From Wild horse can one prepare in a black Pepper (sauce) / and when
you will roast it /so salt t well/ then it is a sweet flesh / (one)
can also prepare the Roast with Garlic. When one will your Pepper
(sauce) cook / so set it to with water/ well salted / and when it is
well boiled / so put it off on a board / and let it become cold / Make
a good Hngarian Pepper (sauce) with Chicken Fat / the nicely
(saurlich?) kind / Ad when the Pepper (sauce) is prepared / so put the
Flesh therin / so it will be good and (leibleich?). You can also...

that is where I get completely lost. I have no idea what a Gei is or
Eynheimischen. Where it says vorhin vermeldt ist von Bock Geil I
believe it says "as before mentioned in the chapter on Bock Geil" but
I was unable to find that chapter.

So, it would take more digging to determine what he means by a
Hungarian Pepper Sauce - but there is no marination step inferred that
I can see.

--Serena da Riva

Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:26:16 -0800 (PST)
From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rumpolt horse was Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 21, Issue 4
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Gentle Serena,

The recipe you refer to is webbed and translated here
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm
(and I suspect since (it seems) the rabbit was a bit
too 'exotic' you wont care for Geil either  ;-)

I translated and webbed this several years ago in
response to a thread on that particular 'part' I
believe started by Lord Ras (anyhow heard from him
lately.)
The corresponding ram recipe is here:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_mutton1.htm

In Service
Gwen Cat

PS, please let me know if you run into questions when
working on Rumpolt. I would be happy to help if I may.

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 07:09:11 +0100
From: UlfR <ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org>
Subject: Re: [Sa-cooks] horse recipes
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at ansteorra.org>

Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com> [2005.02.02] wrote:
> Thank you! I think I've got a single European recipe for horsemeat in
> this file. Many more from Asia, but not much from Europe. This is
> further proof that horsemeat *was* eaten in Europe by others than the
> poor, even if it might not have been common.

In Anne Hagens "Anglo-Saxon Food and Drink: Production and Distribution"
(Anglo-Saxon Books, 1995) we can read "After William's campaigns there
was in 1069 a great dearth 'whereby many were forced to eat horses,
dogs, cats, rats and other vermin; yea, some abstained not from the
flesh of men'." (p. 187). Later on the same page she also writes
"...tabooed foods in Anglo-Saxon England included 'horses, dogs, cats,
rats and other loathsome and vile vermin'.". On the following page she
reports that in 733 Gregory III was trying to get Boniface to stamp out
the practice of Germans of eating horses, and that in 893 the Danes were
condemned for eating horses (even if they at that time experienced a
famine!). Much of the early opposition came from the connection with
pagan sacrificial customs, which by the time of Rumpolt might have
passed by as serious concerns.

Anyone who from the above infers that it is a documentable practice to
eat fellow SCAdians if the banquet is very late if totally on their own.
I surmise that young fighters might be the most tender, not that I would
ever countenance such a practice except in the dearest of emergencies,
and perhaps not even then.  For health reasons one should cook the meat
thoroughly in such a case, and avoid all parts of the nervous system, but
it would still be an evil act, regardless of any delays in serving the
third course.

UlfR
-- 
UlfR Ketilson                               ulfr at hunter-gatherer.org

Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 11:49:08 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] An Tir May Crown
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On May 14, 2006, at 10:51 AM, Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
> My Mongolian friend Kerjie and I keep talking about how if we could get
> USDA approved horsemeat, we'd give it a shot. Much to the dismay of
> other equestriennes ;). But then Kerjies persona is supposed to eat
> marmots too ;)
>
> Hrm. Now that I think on it, do we have any documented recipes for
> horsemeat? I'm sure they ate it, there are still chevaline butchers in
> france (I saw a sign for one with the same last name as me :)) but I
> don't recall any recipes in any of the sources?
>
> -_AM

I don't have any primary documentation, but the claim has been made
that horse-eating in England was discouraged after the Norman
conquest, probably partly because an equestrian aristocracy found it
shocking, and because claims were made that the practice was
apparently part of pre-Christian worship. The impression I get is
that Norman knights thought it an abomination and used the spread off
Christianity and the discouraging of paganism as a convenient excuse.
This probably an over-simplification, though, and not something I can
prove.

As I recall, Yorkshire was one of the last places in England to
accept Christianity more or less fully, and by sheer coincidence, one
derogatory term for a Yorkshireman still used in England until fairly
recently is "kicker" or "kicker-eater", supposedly a reference to
horsemeat consumption.

I think there's a little bit more about this in Schwabe's
"Unmentionable Cuisine".

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 14 May 2006 18:14:34 +0200
From: "Ana L. Vald?s" <agora at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] An Tir May Crown
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I found those called traditional recipes. But tomatoes are not Period :(
And those German recipes are old and traditional,
http://www.theiling.de/recipes/
And these is from Kazakhstan, where the Mongols ate their horses when
they were old, http://www.recipezaar.com/160793

Ana

       Recipes

*Picula ad Caval*

This traditional Italian recipe will serve 6

21/4 pounds ground horse meat
1 Tbsp. olive oil
2-1/2 ounces ground cured lard (or pancetta)
2 onions, minced
1 glass dry white wine (though some Italian chefs prefer broth)
6 ripe tomatoes, blanched, peeled, seeded, chopped, and drained
2 bell peppers, ribbed and seeded, then diced
2 Tbsp. minced fresh herbs (basil, sage, and rosemary in proportions to
taste)
1 clove garlic, minced
salt and freshly ground pepper

Heat the oil, lard, and onion in a skillet. Sauté until the onion has
become golden but don’t let it get really brown. Add the horse meat and
brown it, stirring frequently. When it has browned, sprinkle in the
glass of wine and reduce the heat to a bare simmer. Cover it, and let it
cook for at least an hour. Mix in the chopped tomatoes and diced
peppers, and continue cooking for another half hour.

Ten minutes before removing the dish from the stove, sprinkle the minced
herbs over everything. Serve it hot with salt and pepper to taste.

*Pastissada*

Another traditional Italian recipe from the Verona area.

2 pounds horse meat
2 ounces lard or porkback fat
2-3 carrots, cut into slivers
2 sticks celery, diced
1 large onion, diced
4 cloves
a dozen coriander seeds
1 bay leaf
1 clove garlic
1 bottle Italian red wine
flour, enough to brown the meat with
1/4 cup olive oil
salt & pepper to taste
1 Tbsp. butter kneaded into enough flour to make a small ball
paprika to taste

Slather the meat with the lard and slivers of carrots. Dice the other
vegetables and put them, with the meat and spices (except the paprika)
in a bowl. Pour the wine over everything, then cover and marinate in the
refrigerator for three days, turning the meat occasionally.

Pat the meat dry with paper towel (keep the vegetables and the
marinade), flour it, and brown it in the oil over a brisk flame. Add the
vegetables. When they’ve cooked for a few minutes, pour the marinade
over the meat. Reduce the heat to a simmer and cook for about three
hours. Once the meat is done, remove it to a platter saving the sauce
that has been formed with the marinade.

Return the sauce to the fire, thicken it with the butter-flour ball, and
season it to taste with paprika. Pour the sauce over the meat, and serve
with a good traditional side dish.

*Filet Mignon*

This simple French classic serves 4.

4 four-ounce filets of horse
4 slices bacon
salt and pepper to taste

Prepare exactly as for a filet mignon. Wrap outside of filet with
uncooked bacon slice and secure with toothpicks. Broil to taste.

*Sauerbraten (Sour Roast)*

Practically a German sacrament

2-1/2 lbs. horse meat roast
4 strips bacon (optional)
soup vegetables: carrot, celery, leek (optional), parsley root
(optional), onion (optional)
1 cup red wine vinegar
1 pint red wine (optional)
1 garlic clove
2 bay leaves
1 Tbsp. juniper berries
3 allspice corns and/or cloves
3 peppercorns
1 thyme branch
1/4 cup pork lard
1 Tbsp. flour (optional)
1/2 cup raisins
salt
pepper
maple syrup (to taste)

Vigorously rub the roast with the bacon. Clean and wash the vegetables
and cut them into pieces. Bring the vinegar to boil with some water or
stock, then let it cool down a bit and add the meat, garlic, spices, and
the vegetables. Let it marinade in a closed bowl for several days (but
at least 24 hours) in a cool place.

Remove the horse meat from the marinade and roast it in the lard. Then
slowly add the marinade, together with the vegetables and the spices.
Braise it in the oven for 2 to 21/2 hours at 350 degrees. Remove the bay
leaves, the cloves and the juniper berries from the gravy. Strain the
gravy, and perhaps thicken it with some flour. Add the raisins and
season it with salt, pepper, and maple syrup. Serves 4.

Date: Mon, 15 May 2006 10:42:20 -0400
From: "marilyn traber 011221" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] horse and marmots
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Stefan asks about horsemeat in the US...
>
> Personally I'm only interested in ingesting meat that is either USDA
> approved, or else raised where I could see it ;). You  may be able to
> buy horsemeat in the US, but I'm afraid my micro degree makes me a
> bit more picky about my food than I probably need to be ;).
>
> (no, I don't eat hunted meat either for the same reason...more elk
> for you! ;))
>
> --AM

Actually, unless rules have totally changed, you CAN get horsemeat in the US,
USDA approved and all that, but it IS pretty hard to come by. It's very
similar to beef, but generally a bit lighter colored in younger animals, so
older animals are preferred for slaughter. Meat is rather sweetish, compared
to beef.

Phlip

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 13:10:14 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

<<< I've been trying to figure this out for a while 
now, but I guess someone here might have done so 
already and found some source I'm not aware of. 
Do we have any evidence for horse beraingeaten 
in Early period Northwestern or northern europe? 
I know that afew bones from Hedeby show signs of 
slaughter, and there are horse sacrifices that 
deposit only the head and feet (the rest 
presumably consumed), but these are rare outside 
Slavic areas after the Iron Age. Most horse 
burials dpon't seem to show any such evidence.

Has anyone looked at the sagas or Anglo-Saxon 
literature from thatz point of view? Or know of 
a good study of scandinavian graves theway the 
RBO did the continental ones?

Any help appreciated

Giano >>>

I am reasonably sure that there are references in 
the sagas implying that eating horse was 
connected with paganism--perhaps sacrifices. My 
vague memory is that it was connected to the 
arbitrated settlement in 1000 A.D. that made 
Christianity the official religion of Iceland, 
with toleration for private but not public pagan 
worship. I also have a vague memory of someone 
insulting someone else by a reference to his 
eating horse meat.

A little googling finds:

"It has a particular role in the culture and 
history of the island, as its consumption was one 
of the concessions won when the pagan Norse 
Icelanders  eventually adopted Christianity in 
the year 1000."

"The following day he announced that that Iceland 
was to become Christian, with the condition that 
old laws concerning the exposure of infants and 
the eating of horseflesh would remain, and that 
private pagan worship be permitted. These 
sticking points related to long-established 
customs that ran contrary to the laws of the 
Church. Horsemeat is a taboo food in many 
cultures, and Pope Gregory III had banned the 
Germanic custom of its consumption in 732. "

"Once the church was firmly in control in 
Iceland, horsemeat, infanticide, and pagan 
rituals practiced in private were banned.[1]"

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:28:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

The Christian ban on horsemeat is my point of departure. I've found repeated references by various authors to the fact that eating horses was a pagan practice that the Church banned because of its ritual connotations, but so far, I've come up all but empty with evidence of actual pagans eating actual horses. 

It is interesting, though, that the Northern part of Iceland was also particularly active with horse burials. Certainly something going on with horses there.

Giano

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:55:08 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

Gerald or Wales (Giraldus Cambrensis) provides a description of the 
sacrifice and consumption of horse in Ulster, chapter 102 of his The History 
and Topography of Ireland.

St. Boniface's mission to the Germans (part of Charlemagne's move to control 
the various German tribes) espoused the papal prohibition of not eating 
horsemeat.  Hippophagy was prohibited to Christians apparently because it 
was tied to pagan sacrifice across a wide range of migratory peoples.  A 
dispensation was given to Iceland in 999.

You might wish to check out:  Bhawe, S., Die Yajus des Asvamedba; Versuch 
einer Rekontruktion dieses Abschnittes des Yajurveda auf Grund der 
Uberlieferung seiner funf Schulen, Bonner orientalistiche Studien 25, 
Stuttgart, 1939.  Bhawe ties hippophagy to to an ancient Indo-European 
fertility rite.

You might also try contacting Ken Jukes, who appears to writing a dsoctoral 
thesis entitled Hippophagy in AngloSaxon England. 
http://www.dur.ac.uk/archaeology/staff/?id=1225

Bear

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:30:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] horseflesh in the novgorod chronicle

Not your region, I suppose, but never mind:
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Food/novgorodchronicle.html

Search term: "ate horse-flesh"

E.

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 15:17:41 -0700
From: "Laureen Hart" <lhart at graycomputer.com>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

Hippophagy - I never knew there was a specific term for it.
Is there one for eating dog? Canophagy? (no Latin here).
Both are pretty emotionally charged topics.
Other animals were used/eaten sacrificially, I wonder what caused the church
to ban horse specifically? Logistically it is probably more cost effective
to raise other animals to eat so maybe it was a "safe" thing to ban? Was
there dispensation to eat them if you were starving, or in a siege or
something?

They used to carry Horsemeat at the Seattle Pike Place Market. It really
freaked some people out. I understand some of the issues with where the meat
was supposedly coming from (wild mustangs), but some people were outraged at
the concept of it in any form.

I have always figured something raised to eat or wear isn't any different
from eating or wearing a cow. I have learned to be generally cautious
discussing it. I even have to keep my mouth shut when people start talking
about "Dolphin safe Tuna" Guys...what about the Tunas, who is keeping them
safe?

That said, I would have to be reaaaaallly hungry to eat cat. 
Randell Raye.

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:28:32 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

I believe there's some reference to horsemeat being eaten in both Roman-era and medieval Britain (including some excavated bones suggesting butchering techniques and consumption) in "Of Butchers And Breeds: Report on vertebrate remains from various sites in the City Of Lincoln", ISBN 1 899641 00 9 .

In addition, there's some rather anecdotal/circumstantial evidence concerning laws made in medieval -- Post-Conquest -- England (I couldn't point you to specifics, but this would be more like pointing you to an empty box the murder weapon had been stored in anyway, if you know what I mean) prohibiting, or attempting to prohibit, the eating of horses, perhaps both for suppression of religious practices as well as political reasons, in the North of England, where, until the mid-20th century or so, a pejorative term for Yorkshiremen was "kicker-eaters". One wonders why this term might exist is there wasn't at least some shred of truth behind it at some point...

This doesn't support the idea that it was widespread, but it might poke a small hole in any theory that it never occurred.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:53:24 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Horseflesh in Early Period NW Europe?

Horse sacrifice and the ritual consumption of the horse appear to be part of 
an Indo-European fertility rite which apparently carries down into the pagan 
rituals of the various horse migration peoples.  One finds related rituals 
among the Irish, the Norse (Hervarar saga) and in the Vedic ashvamedha. 
Apparently the pagan German tribes of the 8th and 9th Centuries were still 
practicing their form of the ritual and the papal edict against hippophagy 
appears to have been meant to create a sharp divide and definition between 
the Christians and the pagans among the Germans.

The dispensation for Iceland likely has to do with fact that survival there 
was marginal for centuries and that horsemeat was necessary to the survival 
of the Icelanders.  As to the rest, God's in his heaven and the Pope far 
away.  Eat what you must to insure survival.

Bear

<<< Hippophagy - I never knew there was a specific term for it.
Is there one for eating dog? Canophagy? (no Latin here).
Both are pretty emotionally charged topics.
Other animals were used/eaten sacrificially, I wonder what caused the church
to ban horse specifically? Logistically it is probably more cost effective
to raise other animals to eat so maybe it was a "safe" thing to ban? Was
there dispensation to eat them if you were starving, or in a siege or
something?

That said, I would have to be reaaaaallly hungry to eat cat.
Randell Raye. >>>

Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 17:12:46 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] hippophagie

In the Mediterranean especially Turkey and the Tartar regions, horses 
were roasted whole. From the middle of the backbone down to and 
including the tail the meat with the skin as sliced diagonally and given to the nobles while the rest of the people consumed the rest.

In Spain it was only served to warriors to give them strength. As the 
horse was the war machine or the Ferrari today, it was only owned by the wealthy and was kept as long as possible for combat. So I doubt if the old gray mere was tender. I know the RC Church prohibited eating it but 
in emergency situations it certainly was consumed in the 15th Century 
Castile when there were a lot of battles between nobles. Even Juan II of 
Castile, Isabelle's father was reduced to horse meat when surrounded by 
his battling brother-in-law Enrique of Aragon. The story goes that after 
the horses, they ate saddles and even leather gloves until a shepherd 
sent him a bird with his bow and arrow. Then they knew Castile was 
saved!!!! Long live the king!!! That's not the only 15th Century 
emergency situation I have. I do not have any record of the church 
condemning this or the other cases.

I know that does not help you for northern Europe but would imagine the 
same applies as cannibalism. If there is nothing else to eat what about 
a dead soldier, especially if an in-law? - Gross yes but its the 
survival of the fittest!

Suey

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 16:45:25 +0000
From: yaini0625 at yahoo.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] horsemeat, butchering
	
The eating of horse meat was considered mega social taboo in the Christian world during the Middle Ages. It was a point of contention in Viking Age Iceland when they went Christian in 1000 A.D. In the sagas and documents they were discouraged from eating horse meat and performing the traditional infanticide. Chieftain (Jarl) (Th)orgeir was told by the missionaries that the rest of Christian Europe was no longer eating horses and it was taboo. 
Source- Under the Cloak A Pagan Ritual Point in the Conversion of Iceland by On Hnefill A(th)alsteinsson

Aelina the Saami
By the way- the Saami hated horses. They were the symbols of the dreaded and feared Odin. 

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 13:39:35 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] horsemeat, butchering

The Papal prohibition dates to 732 and is primarily in support of St. 
Boniface's mission to the Germans as eating horse flesh was part of the 
worship of Odin.

In general, horse fell out of favor as a general meat in Europe until the 
French reintroduced it in the 19th Century.  However, horses were eaten in 
times of famine.  As one account of the Famine of 1315 had it, "The usual 
kinds of meats, suitable for eating, were scarce: horse meat was precious, 
plump dogs were stolen.  And according to many reports, men and women in 
many places secretly ate there own children."

Bear

Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 17:51:53 -0400
From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks]  horsemeat

 Stefan,
I could not stomach your horse meat messages - so I did not read them.
HOWEVER, in 732 BC Pope Gregory II prohibited the consumption of horse 
meat because it was used in pagan sacrifices.
On the contrary, my late middle ages references use of horse meat are:

Salted horse meat was eaten only in desperate situations in Europe as 
warriors had to eat meat. This was most prevalent in Spanish baron's 
battles of the 15^th C. Even Juan II, father of Isabel I and Enrique IV, 
was forced to eat horse meat in 1420 during a siege headed by Enrique de 
Aragon, the brother of his first wife. Juan Ruiz also mentions it being 
eaten almost a century earlier with lard and cabbage. The horse was the 
equivalent of a Ferrai automobile today. Only aristocrats owned them for 
war purposes. Horse meat was more tender then beef in the Middle Ages. 
[Castro. _Alimentaci?n_. 1994:123:202; Ruiz-Brey. 1965: 1275a :198; and 
Villena/Calero. 2002:23b:31a]

During World War II my father bought horse meat as it was less expensive 
than beef. He served it to company one night and it turned out his piece 
was bad. He had to confess it to guests. Since they told me that story 
the thought of eating horses, especially my Little Bits and Gray Ciders 
absolutely makes me cry.

Suey

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 12:08:21 -0800 (PST)
From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Neigh not  udder things to consider

I seem to recall Rumpolt has one horse recipe. 
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_horse1.htm

And I have seen a few modern recipes for horse or foal, but it is a specialty 
butcher item, not a standard grocery item (IIRC) and some of the animal groups 
do get pretty opinionated about it.

Gwen Cat

Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 13:38:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Dan Schneider <schneiderdan at ymail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] udder things to consider

Well, hamburgers here [Sweden] are traditionally horsemeat (you can get beef ones too, but you have to read the ingredients list to find out which it is), and it's also sold as deli slices, like ham or chicken, or salami, etc. The texture is a little softer that beef, and the flavour seems to be a little less sweet (it's a little hard to say for sure-the hamburgers all had minced onion added, and the pre-sliced was smoked, but that was the impression I got)I rather liked it: at some point I'd like to try to get a steak or roast, and try that...

Dan 

Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:18:53 -0700
From: Deborah Hammons <mistressaldyth at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] horseflesh in the novgorod chronicle

Lovely.  Sort of.  :-))

Aldyth

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:30 PM, emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> wrote:
<<< Not your region, I suppose, but never mind:
http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Food/novgorodchronicle.html

Search term: "ate horse-flesh"

E. >>>

Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2013 12:29:54 -0500 (EST)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Saying "neigh" to horse meat

We've discussed horse meat here before, but how many people know its  
history in France?

As luck would have it, that's the subject of my blog this week:

Killing Pegasus: the history of horse meat
http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2013/12/killing-pegasus-history-of-horse-meat.h
tml

Jim  Chevallier
(http://www.chezjim.com/) www.chezjim.com

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	horse-recipes-msg