Title: spit-roasting-msg
Subject: Period spit roasting of meats.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: spit, roast, animal, meat, fire, dripping, turn, beef

spit-roasting-msg - 12/7/09

Period spit roasting of meats.

NOTE: See also the files: spits-msg, skewred-meats-msg, p-marinating-msg, roast-chicken-msg, whole-pig-msg, roast-meats-msg, roast-pork-msg, carbonadoes-msg, meat-carving-bib.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:23:25 -0600
From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of
spit roasted meats would be.  It is surprising that I'm
running into such difficulty but I've gone through several
manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina
Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting
beef.  There are detailed instructions on how to roast
birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole
pigs or lamb.

I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century
cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth
or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example
of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats.

The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted
with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want
but not much better.

Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts
or what would compromise "sewe" of beef?

I'm still looking and the results are surprising.

Gunthar

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:07:41 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jan 31, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Michael Gunter wrote:
> I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of
> spit roasted meats would be.  It is surprising that I'm
> running into such difficulty but I've gone through several
> manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina
> Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting
> beef.  There are detailed instructions on how to roast
> birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole
> pigs or lamb.

I'm pretty sure Markham has fairly detailed instructions on spit-
roasting. I don't have it in front of me, but I STR he speaks of
roasting the meat until the fat is running on the outside, and then
putting fine white breadcrumbs on the fat (not unlike those crusted
rack of lamb recipes that used to be all the rage in the 90's) to form
a crust around the meat to keep it moist. He also speaks of using
different-sized cuts of meat either together or as a shield, one
against the other, to control heat flow.

Okay, went and got it:

Book Two, "On Cookery",

59. Of roast meats. Observations in roast meats.
60. Spitting of roast meats.
61. Temperature of fire.
62. The complexion of roast meats.
63. The best bastings for meats.
64. The best dredgings.
65. To know when meat is enough.

As Uncle Don used to say on the radio, "That oughtta hold the little
b******s!"

> I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century
> cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth
> or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example
> of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats.
>
> The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted
> with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want
> but not much better.
>
> Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts
> or what would compromise "sewe" of beef?

There's sewe and there's seme, which sometimes seem to be either
interchangeable or different animals. I suspect there's a transition
from stock/broth, to the fat that floats on top of that, to fat in
general.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:28:54 -0500
From: "Elise Fleming" <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: "sca-cooks at ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Gunther asked about roasting beef... You might want to look at the  
recipe on Ivan Day's web site:
http://www.historicfood.com/Roast%20Fillet%20of%20Beef% 
20Recipe.htm .  He has a picture of the beef on a spit.  He quotes La  
Varenne's method which would seem to preclude much in the way of  
drippings since the beef is wrapped in paper but he also gives May's  
method for basting it.

Alys Katharine

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:33:39 -0500
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jan 31, 2008, at 3:14 PM, Dragon wrote:
> Michael Gunter wrote:
>> I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of
>> spit roasted meats would be.  It is surprising that I'm
>> running into such difficulty but I've gone through several
>> manuals (Digby, Two 15th Century Cookbooks, Sebrina
>> Welserin) and haven't found anything on spit roasting
>> beef.  There are detailed instructions on how to roast
>> birds and such but very little on roasts and even whole
>> pigs or lamb.
>>
>> I've determined that the term "sewe" in Two 15th Century
>> cookbooks means "drippings" as opposed to beef broth
>> or stock. I'm still looking for some kind of concrete example
>> of what we all seem to "know" about roasted meats.
>>
>> The best I've found was in broiling steaks that are basted
>> with verjous, wine or vinegar and whatever herbs you want
>> but not much better.
>>
>> Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts
>> or what would compromise "sewe" of beef?
>>
>> I'm still looking and the results are surprising.
>>
> ---------------- End original message. ---------------------
>
> I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here in that I am not fully
> familiar with the humoral theory of health that influenced the
> cooking of the Middle Ages but I am going to suggest that the reason
> you are having difficulty finding anything on roast beef is because
> they would not have considered that a proper way to cook it.
>
> As I understand it, the theory says that beef is of a hot and dry
> humor and thus it would have been cooked by boiling more often than
> not to temper its hot and dry nature under the theory.
>
> Again, my understanding is not complete as I really need to do more
> reading on it, but I have come across some notes to that effect in an
> annotated translation of Taillevant if I am not mistaken.

You may be speaking of Scully's edition of Taillevent. I think he
says, more or less, that the dryer, hotter meats (humorally speaking
-- these can be identified in sources like Tacuinum Sanitatis, for  
one), are generally parboiled to offset the heat and dryness, then
larded before roasting. The finished meat will still be hot and dry in
temperament, as it were, but less harmfully so. Mutton and venison are
common examples of meat that might be treated in this way, and while
beef, which presumably could be treated this way, was probably more
often boiled than roasted. You may notice there might b said to be
more recipes calling for beef broth than there are for dishes
specifically calling for beef, so perhaps either this beef is being
referred to by another name or is being eaten in some very simple
form, like being boiled, cut up, then served with something like
pepper sauce.  Add to that the fact that we're probably not talking
about young, grain-fed beef steer, so slow simmering  might make a lot
of sense.

That's another rather large hole in what we think we know about the
roast beef genre in period. Seems like even young, tender beef was
often coming from young oxen or bullocks, but not really what we'd
think of now as a steer.

Isn't an ox a castrated adult male, a bullock any castrated male
bovine, and a steer castrated before reaching sexual maturity?

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:41:56 -0600
From: Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Checking my notes, I already had Markham's instructions and
was looking for more.  So far, his is the only book I've been
able to find any instructions for basting beef on a spit.

And I checked the historic food website and it does indeed
state to baste with butter. The recipe used is rather late
but no worse than Digby.

Still, no mention of wine in any recipe so far. This kind of
surprises me as I figured many meats were basted in wine
of some form and probably dredged in herbs.

Right now all I've found is to bake beef well salted. (Roman times)
Baste in verjuis, vinegar, water or butter.

The most common method seems to be parboiling the meat then
slicing into steaks.

I'm still looking.

Gunthar

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:27:34 -0500
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Most of the beef recipes in Rumpolt call for boiling, but there are a  
few for roasting on a spit. And several others for roasting that  
don't mention a spit.  Sorry, I haven't translated these yet.

Could roasting be too simple for older cookbooks to bother with?   
Everyone KNOWS how to roast.

Ranvaig

Ochsen 48. Nimm das Hinterviertel vom Ochsen/ wasch es au?/ und Salz  
es ein/ stecks darnach an ein Spie?/ und la? langsam braten/ in die  
vier und zwentzig stunden. Und du mu?t achtung drauf geben/ da? du es  
zum Fr?hmahl anrichtest/ als dann schneidt zimlich viel Zwibeln  
klein/ und schwei? sie wohl in Butter/ thu auch ein wenig Salz  
darein/ und wenn du den Braten anrichtest/ so thu die Zwibeln oben  
drauf. Also tregt man es f?r einen K?nig in Polen.

Ochsen 57. Eingemacht Ottwarsck/ auf B?hmisch/ mit Kromet oder  
Wacholderbeer. Stecks an ein Spie?/ und la? braten/ zeuchs ab/ und  
wasch in kaltem Wasser au?/ schneidt es zu st?cken/ und thu es in ein  
Hafen oder Kessel/ seig die Br?he durch ein sauber Tuch oder Sieb/  
thu klein geschnittene Zwibel darauf/ und la? darmit sieden/ und  
misch gerieben R?ckenbrot darunter. Und wenn die Zwibeln gesotten  
sein/ so versuchs/ ob es lieblich schmeckt. So bald du es versucht  
hast/ so nimm ein wenig Pfeffer/ und mach es damit an/ thu ein wenig  
Essig/ Safran und Wacholderbeer daran/ und la? darmit sieden/ und  
schaw/ da? das Fleisch nicht versotten wirt/ so gewinnet es ein  
liebliche Br?he. Wiltu es aber auf ein ander manier machen/ so geu?  
unter die Br?he/ wenn sie aufgesotten ist/ ein frischen schwei? und  
Essig/ la? wider damit auf sieden/ streichs durch/ und geu? dar?ber/  
so ist es auch ein gut Essen.

Ochsen 68. Widerumb Rindtfleisch gekocht auf ein ander manier in  
Pfeffer. Nimm Rindtfleisch/ und stecks an ein Spie?/ und brat es gar  
an die statt/ schneidt es zu st?cken/ und thu es in ein eingemachten  
Pfeffer/ der wohl zugerichtet ist/ und fein s?urlich/ wie zuvor  
vermeldt ist/ wie man die Pfeffer machen soll/ La? damit sieden/ so  
wirt es wohl geschmack und gut/ Dann alles wz man von Rindtfleisch  
zurichtet/ ist gut zu essen/ wenn es s?urlich ist/ es sei ein  
Pfeffer/ gelb oder Eschenfarb.

Ranvaig

Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:13:31 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Michael Gunter wrote:
> I'm doing some research on just what the drippings of
> spit roasted meats would be.  snipped
>
> Any sources out there for basting juices for whole roasts
> or what would compromise "sewe" of beef?
>
> I'm still looking and the results are surprising.
>
> Gunthar

Ok --  A Sur-Loyn of Roast  Beef
Holme in the Academy of Armory gives this as first course dish--
A Surloyn of Beef , a Chine or Ribb of Beef .
followed by 10. Loyn of Veal,Roast Venison.

Searching EEBO-TCP and trying various search combinations, it's easy to
turn up

To Roast a Haunch of Venison.

If your Venison be seasoned, you must water it, and stick it with short
sprigs of Rosemary, let your sawce be Claret Wine, a handful of grated
Bread, Cinnamon, Ginger, Sugar, a little Vinegar, boyl these up so
thick as it may only run like Butter, it ought to be sharp and sweet,
dish up your meat on your sawce.

The compleat servant-maid; by Woolley, Hannah, fl. 1670. This edition  
1677.

Now to get into beef-- one has to account for variations in spelling
not only as to beef but also as to roast...

The best and longest is Gervase Markham as been mentioned.

So Here's what Markham has to say in the 1623 version of Countrey
contentments, or The English husvvife

Page 79-80
To proceed then to roast meats, it is to bee vnderstood, that in the
generall knowledge thereof are to be obserued these few rules. First,
the cleanely keeping and scowring of of the spits and cobirons; next,
the neat picking and washing of meate before it bee spitted,  then the
spitting and broaching of meate which must bee done so strongly and
firmely, that the meat may by no meanes either shrink from the spit, or
else turne about the spit: and yet euer to obserue, that the spit doe
not goe through any principall part of the meate, but such as is of
least account and esti|mation: and if it be birds or fowle which you
spit, then to
let the spit goe through the hollow of the body of the Fowle, and to
fasten it with pricks or skewers vnder the wings about the thighes of
the Fowle, and at the feete or rump,* according to your manner of
trussing and dressing them. Then to know the temperatures of fiers for
euery meate, and which must haue a slow fire, yet a good one, taking
leasure in roasting, as Chines of Beefe, Swannes, Turkies, Peacockes,
Bustards, and generally any great large Fowle, or any other ioints of
Mutton, Veale, Porke, Kid, Lambe, or such like: whether it be Venison
red, or Fallow, which indeed would lie long at the fire, and soke well
in the roasting, and which would haue a quicke and sharpe fire without
schorching; as Pigges, Pullets, Feasants, Partridge, Quaile, and all
sorts of middle sized or lesser fowle, and all small birds, or compound
roste-meates, as Oliues of Veale, Haslets; a pound of butter roasted; or
puddings simple of themselues; and many other such like, which in|deed
would be suddenly & quickly dispatcht, because it is intended in
Cookery, that on of these dishes must be made ready whilst the other is
in eating. Then to know the com|plexions of meates, as which must be
pale and white rosted, (yet thorowly rosted) as Mutton Veale, Lambe,
Kid, Capon, Pullet, Pheasant, Partridge, Quaile, and all sorts of middle
and small land, or water-fowle, and all small birds, and which must be
browne rosted, as Beefe, venison, Porke Swannne, Geese, Pigges, Crane,
Bustards, and any large fowle, or other thing whose flesh is blacke.
Then to know the best bastings for meat which is sweet butter, sweet
oyle, barreld butter, or fine rendred vp seame with sinamon, cloues, and
mace. There be some that will bast onely with water, and salt, and
nothing else; yet it is but opinion, and that must be the worlds Master
alwaies.
Then the best dredging, which is either fine white-bread crummes well
grated, or els a little very fine white meale, and the crummes very well
mixt together.
Lastly to know when meate is rosted enough; for as too much rarenes is
vnholsome, so too much drinesse is not nourishing. Therefore to know
when it is in the perfit height, and is neither too moist nor too dry,
you shall ob|serue these signes first in your large ioints of meate,
when the stemme or stroke of the meate offendeth, either vp|right or els
goeth from the fire, when it beginneth a little to shrinke from the
spit, or when the grauy which drop|peth from it is cleare without
bloodinesse.

Page 84

If you will roast a Chine of Beefe, a loyne of Mutton, a Capon, and a
Larke, all at one instant and at one fire, and haue all ready together
and none burnt: you shall first take your Chine of Beefe and perboile if
more then halfe through: Then first take your Capon being large and fat,
and spit it next the hand of the turner, with the legges, from the fire,
then spit the Chine of Beefe, then the Larke, and lastly the loine of
Mutton, and place the Larke so as it may be couered ouer with the Beefe,
and the fat part of the loine of Mutton, without any part disclosed:
Then bast your Capon, and your loine of Mutton, with cold water, and
Salt, the Chine of Beefe with boyling larde: Then when you see the beefe
is almost enough, which you shall has|ten by schorching and opening of
it: then with a cleane cloth you shall wipe the Mutton and Capon all
ouer, and then bast it with sweet butter till all bee enough roasted;
Then with your knife lay the Larke open which by this time will be
stewed betweene the Beefe and Mutton, and basting it also dredge all
together; draw them and serue them vp.

----------
Will this do for tonight? I promise to return with more.
My bedtime reading tonight was already a volume titled
Beef and Liberty Roast Beef, John Bull and the English Nation.
I suspect also that reading Peter Brears' All the King's Cooks
might provide you with a number of interesting points also.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:24:43 -0600
From: "Pat Griffin" <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

One source that has been cited here in Meridies for spit roasting beef is a
scene from the Bayeux Tapestry that supposedly show whole animals being
roasted on spits.  While I have not had the opportunity to study the entire
231 feet of the thing, or even to see it in real life, I have not been able
to find such a scene online. I have, though, found a scene showing a spit
mounted over a large cauldron.  Could steaming be a possibility?

Lady Anne du Bosc Known as Mordonna The Cook
Mka Pat Griffin
Thorngill, Meridies
mka Montgomery, AL

Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 15:34:51 -0500
From: "Audrey Bergeron-Morin" <audreybmorin at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Basting spit roasted meat
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I've seen the Bayeux "tapestry" in person twice, but it's a little too
overwhelming to remember the details :-) I do have the 1/2 size-or-so  
repro book, so I took a look...

There is an illustration of a big cauldron hung over a fire. It seems like
it's actually hanging from the spit-thing, though, not laid under it.  Just a
little bit further, there are two skewers with small animals (they might be
fowl or maybe rabbits), being passed from hand to hand (but not shown over a
fire). I think they're part of the same scene.

The only whole animals I could see were being carried on peoples' shoulders
(looked like pigs).

If there are animals roasting on a spit, I can't find them - and yes, I
looked in the borders too.

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	spit-roasting-msg	Page  of