Title: turkey-msg
Subject: Use of Turkeys in Rennaissance Europe.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: turkey, bird, New World, buzzard, fowl, large, Rennaissance, Europe

turkeys-msg - 11/24/13

The history and use of turkeys in Europe in the Rennaisance.

NOTE: See also the files: Turkeys-a-GB-art, chicken-msg, peacocks-msg, duck-goose-msg, fowls-a-birds-msg, birds-recipes-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:20:16 -0600
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - RE: Turkeys

>I seem to remember other references that suggest that they were reasonably
>common domestic fowl in England post 1550.  Common enough that records exist
>of them being driven to market and prices quoted.  If there is enough
>interest I will research this further and find the specific references in my
>collection.  Please remember that with this fowl there is some historical
>confusion with the Guinea Hen.
>Daniel Raoul

While there is some confusion with the Guinea hen in written records,
their depiction in art is not,  The birds look completely different from each
other.  Even in the 16th century Paduan manuscript, it is hard to deny the
characteristic red head and wattles of the American turkey from all other
European fowl.  That is why it is critical in the evaluation; as a visual primary source, it is unambiguous.  

What is also important is that this particular
painting is of a peasant class woman taking assorted fowl to market to
sell.  This is prima facae evidence of turkeys being in common domestic
production early on.   Another important point to note is that there is no
evidence concerning the use of turkey eggs that I know of in period
documents.  This would be very consistant with actually hatching the
valuable eggs for meat production and more quickly spreading the poultry
breeding stock which was doubtless in heavy demand.   It would have
been such with the rapid displacement of peacock, swan and crane
(according to some authors) by the turkey.   This is especially true if
they were in adequate supply to provide a large number of them by 1553
for a Catherine d' Medici feast of some note.  At least what I
am seeing now is consistant with this premise.  I believe that
we, as an organized group of cooks, should pursue the topic of
turkeys and potatoes to the fullest and make some kind of
document of the findings for publication, perhaps TI. We, as
a group, have the advantage over independant researchers in that
we have an international base, especially those of us in Europe,
to find the documentation (or lack thereof) in many different
languages.  Particularly important also is that several of you good
gentles, SCA or not, read period language doucumentaion with
some facility.

It has always been somewhat  absurd to me, if early New World
foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen
at feast.  I for one would rather have a good slice of turkey at feast
than most of the bad chicken legs and thighs I have been served
over the years in the name of budget.  Likewise, I would not mind
having a potato in lieu of some of the godawful and obscure
vegetables that some cooks have put before me in their desperation
for period veggies recipes.

Akim

Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2000 09:44:18 -0500
From: Margo Farnsworth <mfarnsworth at mfgraffix.com>
Subject: SC - Turkey recipe - slightly OOP (was RE: Turkeys)

I have adapted an adaptation of a French recipe from "Le Cvisinier francois", by
Francois La Varenne (1654).  I don't speak (or read) French, so I went under the
assumption that the adaptation given in the book "Savoring the Past, The French
Kitchen and Table from 1300 to 1789", by Barbara Ketcham Wheaton was not too far
off the mark.  Here is the recipe in French (hopefully without too many typos):

Poulet d'Inde a la framboise farcy (I know that this translated is something
like Indian chicken (turkey) stuffed with raspberries)
Apres qu'il est habille levez en le brichet et tirez la chair, que vous hacherez
avec graisse, et peu de chair de veau, que vous meslerez ensemble avec des
jaunes d'oeufs et de pigeonneaux et le tout bien assaisonne, vous remplirez
vostre poulet-d'Inde, avec sel, poivre, clou battu, et capres, puis le mettez a
la broche, et le ferez tourner bien doucement, estant presque cuit tirez-le et
let mettez dans une terrine avec de bon bouillon, champignons et un bouquet.
Pour lier la sauce, prenez un peu de lard coupe, le faites passer par la poesle,
lequel estant fondu vous tirerez, et y meslerez un peu de farine, que vous
laisserez bien roussir et delayerez avec peu de bouillon et de vinaigre; la
mettez ensuite dans vostre terrine avec jus de citron, et servez; si c'est en
temps des framboises, vous y mettrez une poignee par dessus.

The recipe translation calls for removing the meat from the skeleton while
leaving the skin intact.  The skeleton is also removed from the skin.  Then the
forcemeat is made and put back into the skin and the whole thing is roasted on a
spit.  We are planning on making this for a feast for 150 people, and could not
imagine doing that process on that scale.  So, I have adapted it to a terrine.
Here is my adaptation:

Turkey terrine (serves 12, makes 2 loaves)
3 lbs. Boneless turkey
1.5 lbs. Boneless chicken (thighs are good)
.75 lbs. Boneless veal
1 lb. Bacon
4 egg yolks
2 tsp. Salt
1 tbsp. Pepper
1/4 tsp. Ground cloves
3 tbsp. Capers
2 quarts chicken stock
1.5 lbs. Mushrooms (24 oz.), sliced
2 tsp. Rosemary
1/2 tsp. Thyme
1 bay leaf
2 tbsp. Butter
1/4 c. flour
1 tbsp. Wine vinegar
1 tbsp. Lemon juice
1 pint fresh or frozen raspberries

Grind turkey, chicken, veal and 1/2 lb. of the bacon.  Add egg yolks, salt,
pepper, cloves and capers and mix thoroughly.  Divide between 2 loaf pans and
cover with remaining 1/2 lb. bacon.  Bake at 350 for 1 hour 20 minutes.
Meanwhile, saute the mushrooms in the butter until limp.  Add the flour to make
a roux.  Slowly add the chicken stock, stirring constantly (I also add the
drippings from the loaf pan).  Add the rosemary, thyme and bay leaf and simmer
over medium heat until it becomes a thick sauce.  Remove from heat and add the
vinegar & lemon juice just before serving.  Slice the terrine and place on a
platter.  Spoon the sauce over and garnish with the raspberries.

We are precooking the feast, so we made this last weekend and froze it.  We
ended up using canned mushrooms (I was horrified when the person who did the
shopping opted for this over fresh), but it worked out pretty well.  The fresh
mushrooms made the sauce very dark, whereas the canned kept it a beautiful
creamy gold color.  We also made all of the terrines on one day and drained
their juices into a large pot before freezing them.  We let this juice separate
and used the fat instead of butter to make the roux.  We used the broth from
this juice instead of the chicken stock, and added the canned mushrooms with
their liquid.  The result was better tasting than the original adaptation.

This dish will be served as part of the feast for K&Q Bardic Championship in
Concordia of the Snows (Albany, NY) in the Kingdom of the East on March 11.

Faoiltighearna
(waiting for the bashing on it being slightly out of period and served at a SCA
feast)

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 04:07:28 +0100
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey)

<<< "It has always been somewhat  absurd to me, if early New World
 foods, with the economy of turkey in particular, are so seldom seen
 at feast."

I don't find this absurd at all. (...) the 'medieval' atmosphere that
most feasts and event settings are trying to achieve (...) item for high
ranking noblemen >>>

If you only want to have "medieval"-type recipes, it would be more
appropriate to just choose a different year for the end of the period,
say, 1480. -- I am sure it was chilling for 16th century people to get
some of the 'exotic' food stuff.

Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New
Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of
noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's
interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one
dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of
the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul
please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment
on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to
a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at:
  http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm

Rumpolt gives 20 recipes/ mentions 20 kinds of dishes for "Jndianische
Henn" and "Jndianischen Han" in the recipe section of his book.

The order of the banquets follows an order from the highest to the lower
noblemen (Keyser, Kˆnige, Churf¸rsten, Ertzhertzogen, Grafen und Herren,
Edelleut). One of the dishes for "Edelleut", the lower noblemen, is:
"EJn gebratenen Jndianischen Hanen" (p.35).

Thus, it seems to me that noblemen even of the lower ranks were eating
"Jndianischen Han" at certain events in the late 16th century. On the
other hand, there are no such dishes in the "Bancket der B¸rger", the
banquet/ menue of the citizens. ["since all members of the SCA are
considered nobility"]

Best,
Thomas

Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 10:18:36 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - New World Foods-rant (was: turkey)

> Marx Rumpolt in his German-language but international-in-spirit "New
> Kochbuch" ('New cookbook', 1581) has several banquets for all kinds of
> noblemen and other people like citizens and peasants. Now, what's
> interesting, is, that _all_ the banquets for noblemen have at least one
> dish with "Jndianischen Hanen", which was, if I am not mistaken, one of
> the earlier German expressions for "turkey". -- Would some kind soul
> please look at the picture provided in the Rumpolt-cookbook and comment
> on the kind of bird that is depicted there? If you do not have access to
> a Rumpolt copy, the picture is also at:
>   http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/rump66p.htm
> 
> Thomas

It is definitely not Numida melegaris (guinea fowl).  It looks more like
Meleagris gallopavo (North American turkey) than Agriocharis ocellata
(Central American turkey).  

The problem is that Agriocharis ocellata is the turkey which was brought
back to Europe around 1523.  It would be interesting to find the provenance
of the illustration.

Bear

Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:11:31 EST
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1887

Ok, how's about the idea of substituting turkey for "Bustard", it was driven 
out of existence I believe. I  nor anyone else I know has tasted "Bustard" 
but it was purportedly an upwards of 40lbs flightless land bird. Recipes can 
be found in several medieval sources such as "A Forme of Cury" 1390 (IIRC) 
and others but I can't seem to find them at the moment.
According to  Websters New Collegiate 1949
Bustard-avis tarda (slow bird), any of a family (Otididae) of Old World  and 
Australian game birds related to both cranes and plovers esp the Great 
Bustard (Otis tarda) the largest  European land bird.

Considering the availability of cranes and plovers, seems like it would be an 
acceptable substitute.

Hauviette

The turkey is of course from a entirely different family (Meleagridae), but 
hey, has anyone tasted Bustard lately?

Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2000 18:48:45 -0600
From: Magdalena <magdlena at earthlink.net>
Subject: SC - Turkeys in Tusser

Thomas Tusser _500 Good Points of Husbandry_ (1571)

From May's Husbandry:
Grass, thistle, and mustard-seed, hemlock and bur,
tine, mallow, and nettle, that keep such a stur;
With peacock and turkey, that nibble off top,
are very ill neighbors, to seely poor hop.

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 12:34:48 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - turkeys again

While reading in Food: A Culinary History, I came across the following:

"  The slow rate at which American foods were generally adopted is typical
of the process of culinary change in early modern society.  Yet some species
gained acceptance much more quickly than others, or more quickly in certain
regions than in others.  Indeed, the turkey caught on with amazing speed.
Discovered by Cortez and his men in Mexico about 1520, the "Indian chicken"
was mentioned by Rabelais in his Gargantua (1534).  And we know that
Marguerite d'Angouleme contracted with a farmer in Navarre to raise turkeys
for her table.  At a banquet given by Catherine de' Medici at the bishopric
of Paris in 1549, seventy "Indian Chickens" costing 20 sols apiece and seven
"Indian roosters" costing 30 sols were served.  The most surprising thing is
that these prices were already markedly below the prices for native birds
such as peacock and heron (40 sols), pheasant and bustard (70 sols), crane
(80 sols), swan (100 sols) and so on.  The turkey was accepted almost from
the moment it arrived because all sorts of large birds were served on
aristocratic tables, including some that we consider inedible, such as
cormorant, stork, heron, crane, swan and peacock.  Hence there was no
problem with introducing the turkey, which was large, decorative, and tasty
in the opinion of satisfied consumers both then and now.

"  Similar arguments can be advanced to explain the relatively rapid
acceptance of corn by millet eaters and of string beans by those already
accustomed to the old European variety.  If the pace of change in these
cases was slower that in the case of the turkey, it was not because the
common folk were less open to new foods than were members of the elite; it
may be quite simply that the sources paid less attention to what the poor
ate than to what the rich ate."

Flandrin, Jean-Louis, "Introduction:  The Early Modern Period", pp. 358-359,
Food: A Culinary History.

Unfortunately, this Introduction was not foot-noted, so I don't know the
source for Catherine's banquet list.  I'm curious to find out what the
original says, as the version of the list which appears in Larousse lists
"66 India hens".  So question 1 is, what is the primary source of the
banquet list?

I can not find any reference to Marguerite d'Angouleme in my library, but
anyone who contracts for raising turkeys in this time frame is certainly of
interest to the culinary historian.  Question 2 is, what biographical
information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme?

I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to
verify the facts he puts forward.

Bear

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 15:50:05 -0400
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli at infoengine.com>
Subject: SC - Marguerite d'Angouleme

Bear asked:
>Question 2 is, what biographical
>information is there about Marguerite d'Angouleme?

Well, to the best of my knowledge, she was a princess of
Navarre, so I'd say there was a hell of a lot of biographical
information available about her. MRLIAH, however. :) A
quick search of the web reveals that there are quite a few
publications out regarding her correspondence (some even
translated into English).

>I'm a little hesitant to accept Flandrin's arguments, but I would like to
>verify the facts he puts forward.

Well, now that you've piqued my interest (damn you!)
I'll have to see what my Gods and Godesses of ILL can
dig up for me.

jasmine
Iasmin de Cordoba

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:24:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again!

This is what the Oxford Companion of Food says about
turkeys:

When turkeys reached the Old World, they appear
(unlike other foods from the Americas, such as
tomatoes and potatoes) to have diffused swiftly and
been consumed enthusiastically.  In England in 1541,
they were cited amongst large birds such as cranes and
swans in sumptuary laws; their prices had been fixed
in the London markets by the mid-1550s; and Tussar
(1557) spoke of feeding turkeys on runcivall pease,
and of eating them at Christmas.

Liliane Plouvier, in a learned paper (of the 1980s)
about the early history of turkeys in Europe, found
that Queen Marguerite of Navarre is recorded to have
raised turkeys at Alencon in 1534; and 66 turkeys were
served at a feast for Catherine de'Medici in 1549.  In
Belgium, turkey prepared three different ways (boiled
with oysters; roast and served cold; and in a pasty)
was served in 1557 at a banquet held in Liege. 
Reasons for this speedy acceptance are not hard to
find. The turkey would have been seen as similar to
the domestic poultry familiar in Europe since ancient
times, and confused with guinea-fowl; and there anyway
a firm medieval precedent for eating all sorts of
fowl, wild and tame, large and small.

[snip]

When it came to cooking turkeys, they were rapidly
assimilated into various styles of cuising
contemporary with their arrival in Europe.  Plouvier,
examining early recipes, found that there were several
for turkey in Italy by 1570 (e.g. in Scappi's 'Opera
dell'arte del cucinare'); besides being spit roasted,
made into paupiettes or little poached quenelles, they
could be stuffed, stuck with cloves, encased in a
coarse crust with the head exposed, and baked. 
Recipes were published in Germany by the 1580s, but
the turkey recipes only appeared in France during the
'culinary renaissance' of the 17th century, when La
Varenne gave several recipes, including one requiring
a truffle-perfumed bouillon.

In England, turkeys were being made into pies during
the reign of Elizabeth I, and soon afterwards Gervase
Markham (1615) recommended that they should be roast,
and served with a sauce of onions, flavoured with
claret, orange juice, and lemon peel.

Huette

Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 02:27:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: SC - SC- Turkeys again, Again!

- --- "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US> wrote:
> I've reviewed Tannehill, Trager, and Toussaint-Samat and while they express
> the opinion the turkey was widely adopted early, they present little proof
> for the assertion.  The original documentation in this case should help
> support their assertions.
> 
> Bear

According the the Oxford Companion to Food, it was
Liliane Plouvier in her paper entitled "Introduction
de la dinde en Europe", who found the documentation. 
According to the bibliography, her paper was published
in Brussels circa 1980.  When I get to work tomorrow,
I will look up libraries who have this paper in their
collection.  Of course, you will have to be able to
read French to read it ...

Huette

Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:54:42 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

>>IIRC, Rumpolt has a woodcut of a North American turkey in the book. 
That would suggest Jndianischer Han means a New World turkey rather than a
guinea fowl.<<

The interesting point is the woodcut appears to be Meleagris gallapavo, the
North American woodland turkey of U.S. Thanksgiving Day fame.  The turkey
that was probably available at the time was the Central American turkey,
Agriocharis ocellata, which was brought to Europe by Cortez.

Bear

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 07:16:34 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - 90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

> <<The interesting point is the woodcut appears to be Meleagris gallapavo, the
> North American woodland turkey of U.S. Thanksgiving Day fame.  The turkey
> that was probably available at the time was the Central American turkey,
> Agriocharis ocellata, which was brought to Europe by Cortez.<<
> 
> Bear, 
> As I wouldn't know the difference, how would it affect our cooking? 
> Size, taste, etc"

The woodland turkey is a game bird and, to my knowledge, not domesticated.
There are people who find them much tastier than the domestic turkey.  The
turkey you buy at the grocery is a Central American turkey.   For our
purposes, store bought commercial turkey is probably the best choice.

> Gwen-Cat or Thomas, do either of you know when the woodcut was made and
> added to Rumpold's book?  Is there evidence that the woodcuts are as old
> as the recipes?

> Allison,     allilyn at juno.com
 
Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona) is roughly contemporaneous
with Rumpolt's work (no more than 10 years difference) and it has a Central
American turkey rather prominently displayed in the woman's lap.

Bear

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 15:48:32 EDT
From: allilyn at juno.com
Subject: Re: SC -poultry art, was  90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

>>
The woodland turkey is a game bird and, to my knowledge, not domesticated.
There are people who find them much tastier than the domestic turkey.<<

Nice to know that we have the citations for both kinds, even in the very
end of period.  I was planning to include a can of turkey in my demo
exhibit--the food game--next week but might not.

Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a white-feathered bird,
which is, I suppose, the SA.  The traditional Pilgrim-type darkly
variegated feathered bird would be the game bird, then?

Looking thru some illustrated books, I find Bernardo Strozzi's
(1581-1644) _The Cook_, in the Palazzo Rosso in Genoa, includes turkeys
(white) waiting to be picked.  This painting is probably OOP, but gives a
look at turkeys more period than the super-breasted modern hybrids.  It's
in G. Riley's _Renaissance Recipes_.

Allison,     allilyn at juno.com

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 22:04:08 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Rumpolt woodcuts (was: 90 ingredients ...)

Allison,

<< Gwen-Cat or Thomas, do either of you know when the woodcut was made
and added to Rumpold's book?  Is there evidence that the woodcuts are as
old as the recipes? >>

there are several Rumpolt versions: among the printed versions are
copies from 1581, 1587 and 1604 (Vicaire mentions copies from 1582 and
1586, too), and a manuscript dedication copy to Rudolf II., now in the
÷NB Vienna. We all rely on the 1581 edition, because there is a reprint,
though there are rumors of a potatoe recipe in the 1587 edition...

Now, the woodcuts we have, were printed at the same time with the
recipes, in 1581. A few of them were taken from earlier culinary works,
and a few were repeated in different sections, too. Clearly, there is
some evidence, that Rumpolt had a handwritten collection of recipes
before ("auch etlich Jar ein gewisse Formul bey mir verzeichnet vnnd
beschrieben gehabt"; Vorrede), but we (or at least I) know nothing about
it. Also I do not know whether or not the dedication copy to Rudolf II.
antedates the first printed edition or not. Wiswe says, it is an
"Abschrift". In any case, it would be worthwile to compare the pictures.

So, if anybody comes to Vienna, don't forget to visit the
"÷sterreichische Nationalbibliothek" and call for the dedication copy of
Rumpolt for Rudolf II. ...

Thomas

Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 19:19:18 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC -poultry art, was  90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

> Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a white-feathered bird,
> which is, I suppose, the SA.  The traditional Pilgrim-type darkly
> variegated feathered bird would be the game bird, then?

The white birds are definitely domestic turkeys, but the Central American
turkey also comes in the greys and browns.  The key visual differences seem
to be a broader spread of upturned tail feathers on the North American bird.
The NA turkey being a woodland animal holds its body roughly horizontal to
the ground while the CA turkey holds itself more erect to see over plains
grasses.  BTW, I have encountered what I believe to be undomesticated
members of both species in Oklahoma, where there is a boundary between the
eastern hardwood forests and the Great Plains habitats.

> Haven't yet found Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona).  I know
> there were URLs posted giving web sites for food paintings, but can't
> find the citations.  Anybody else have them handy?
> 
> Allison,     allilyn at juno.com

I don't know of any URL for The Poultry Seller.  We have a rather extensive
collection of works on art.  And I produced a transparency for a lecture on
Food in Renaissance Art.

Bear

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 17:46:34 +1000
From: "Drake & Meliora" <meliora at macquarie.matra.com.au>
Subject: SC - Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller

Allison,

> Haven't yet found Vincenzo Campi's The Poultry Seller (Cremona).  I know
> there were URLs posted giving web sites for food paintings, but can't
> find the citations.  Anybody else have them handy?

There is a copy of this painting in the hardback copy of Elizabeth David's
Italian Food (page 155).

Meliora.

Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 21:53:50 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: RE:SC -poultry art, was  90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

Allison writes:
>>>>Commercial turkey farms seem to specialize in a 
white-feathered bird, which is, I suppose, the SA.  The 
traditional Pilgrim-type darkly variegated feathered bird 
would be the game bird, then?

Looking thru some illustrated books, I find Bernardo 
Strozzi's (1581-1644) _The Cook_, in the Palazzo 
Rosso in Genoa, includes turkeys (white) waiting to 
be picked.  This painting is probably OOP, but gives a
look at turkeys more period than the super-breasted 
modern hybrids.  It's in G. Riley's _Renaissance Recipes_.<<<<

Allison, I'm looking at the same painting you cite in G. Riley
I don't see any white (like the modern supermarket type) 
feathered turkey.  The two hanging are dark birds like the NA.
If you are referring to the birds the lady is plucking, they are 
either geese or swans I think.  Actually there are other 
paintings in G. Riley  that I have mentioned previously that I
think are more important than Strozzi's.  On page 42, the 
obviously NA turkey is quite prominent.  More interesting to
me in any argument about early turkey breeding by peasants
is the countrywoman on page 57 with the NA turkey in her basket.
I would say again this lends credability to widespread turkey
consumption in Italy (judging from the garb- Paduan) in the mid-
sixteenth century.  I wish someone could get a firm date on the
source manuscript for THAT depiction.  Lack of written recipes
does not preclude such an early use in the sixteenth century of
NA turkey.

Akim Yaroslavich

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 08:22:38 -0700
From: "E. Rain" <raghead at liripipe.com>
Subject: SC - turkeys in art

Giamboldona??? did a turkey sculpture in bronze c. 1600 that's in the
Bargello in Florence.

http://www.liripipe.com/travel/index.cgi# scroll aboiut 2/3 of the way down
the index for the turkey photo in the Florence 1998 section

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:26:32 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC -poultry art, was  90 ingredients Holloptrida translation

I finally got my hands on some illustrations and descriptions of Agriocharis
ocellata and Melegaris gallopavo.    

A. ocellata (which has been renamed M. ocellata) appears to be slightly
smaller than most gallopavos, has "eyes" on its tail feathers, and no
"beard".  Their range is also smaller than I was lead to believe.  Head is
blue with wattles, but a couple illustrations show a white head.

M. gallopavo has five wild varieties.  The males and many females have
"beards," an appendage hanging from their breast.  The heads and upper necks
have a variety of colors purple to red, blue and white.  There is usually a
pronounced "snood" or fleshy appendage above the beak.  They range in size
from the relatively small M. g. silvestris, the Eastern Woodland turkey, to
M. g. gallopavo and M. g. intermedia, large plains birds.  M. g. gallopavo
is the Mexican turkey also called Gould's turkey, and probably the bird
brought back by Cortez.  M. g. intermedia is the Rio Grande turkey and
probably what I mistook for M. ocellata.  The other two varieties are M.g.
merriami, Merriam's turkey from the U.S. Southwest, and M. g. osceola, the
Florida turkey.  

The white turkeys are modern hybrids.

While trying to find more information, I chanced across the turkey census
for the Society for the Preservation of Poultry Antiquities which contains a
wealth of information.  You can find it at:

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/SPPA/TurkCensusRept.html

For Stefan and some of our other members in Texas, apparently the San
Antonio zoo has some specimens of M. ocellata.

Bear

Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:08:49 -0600 (MDT)
From: grasse at mscd.edu (Martina Grasse)
Subject: SC - Rumpolt's turkeys

Hi all, and especially Allison,

I did not have all the files I needed to clean up the 90 indgredient 
mega-recipe, but I did have almost all I needed to process the turkey chapter 
so here it is.  There a a few puzzling terms (Pobrat, gebehten), but I think 
I got most of it.
As usual feedback appreciated!

In service to the dream
Gwen Cat von Berlin

Indianishen Hen Pg. LXVIa
Turkey

I.
Warm abgebraten mit einem Pobrat/ oder trucken gegeben/ Oder
kalt lassen werden/ denn es ist ein gut Essen/ wen{n}s kalt ist.
I.
Warm roasted off with a [sauce???]/ or served dry/ Or
let it (get) cold/ because it is a good meal/ when it is cold.

2. Pasteten kalt oder warm.
2. Pasties (pies) cold or warm.

3. Gliedt den Indianischen Han ab/ Flu:egel vnd Diech/ fu:ell einjeglichs 
besonders/ vnd wenns gefu:ellt ist/ so setz es zu/ vnd lasz an die statt 
sieden/ Legs auff ein Roszt/ breuns ab/ vnd mach ein Bru:eh darzu/ es sey saur oder su:esz/ ist es auff beyde manier gut.
3. Dismember the turkey/ (remove) wings and thighs (legs too??)/ stuff each 
especially/ and when they are stuffed/ so put them to (water?)/ and let them 
simmer till done/ Lay them on a rack/ brown them/ and make a broth thereto/ be it sour our sweet/ it is good both ways.

4. Du kanst solche gefu:ellte Flu:egel auch eynmachen mit Pettersilgen 
Wurtzel/ guter Muscatenblu:et vnd Rinstfleischbru:eh/ auch mit gru:enen 
wolschmeckenden Kra:eutern. Du magst gelb machen oder weisz lassen/ so ist es 
auff beyde manier gut.
4. You can also prepare such stuffed wings with parsley 
root/ good Nutmeg blossom (Mace) and beef broth/ also with green welltasting 
herbs. You may make it yellow (with saffron) or leave it white/ so it is 
good both ways. 

5. Du kanst auch solche gefu:ellte Flu:egel vnd Diech in einem Pfeffer 
eynmachen.
5. You may also prepare such stuffed wings and thighs in a pepper (sauce.)

6. Oder kansts gru:en eynmachen mit Pettersilgen/ die wol gesotten vn{d} 
durchgestrichen ist/ von einem gebehten Schnitten Weck/ mit einer 
Rindtfleischbru:eh/ sampt der Pettersilgen vnd Lebern. Wu:ertz es ab mit Saffran 
vnd Pfeffer/ schaw dasz du es nicht verwu:ertzest noch versaltzest/ so ist es 
gut vnd wolgeschmack.
6. or you can prepare it green with parsley/ well cooked and pressed 
through (a sieve)/ from a GEBEHTEN sliced loaf (of bread)/ with a beef broth/ 
along with the parsley and livers. Season it with saffron 
and pepper/ be careful that you don't overseason nor oversalt/ so it is good 
and welltasting

7. Nimm ein halbe Brust/ die roh ist/ unnd mach Knˆdel darauﬂ / es 
sey gelb oder weiﬂ
7. Take half a breast / that is raw/ and make meatballs (dumplings) of it/ be 
it yellow or white.

8. Mach ausz der aundern halben Brust/ die gesotten ist/ ein gestossens/ 
magst weisz lassen/ oder gru:en machen/ mit gru:ener Pettersilgen/ die 
gesotte{n}/ vnd mit guter Hennenbru:eh durchgestrichen ist/ auch mit gebeht Schnitten/ so ist es gut vnd wolgeschmack.
8. Make from the other half breast/ that is cooked/ a crushed (like a mash???)/
(you) may leave it white/ or make it green/ with green parsley/ that (is) 
cooked/ and with good chicken broth pressed through (a sieve)/ also mit GEBEHT slices (of bread)/ so it is good and welltasting.

9. Du magst auch wol ein gehack darausz machen/ ist es weisz/ so nim{b} 
ein lautere Hennengru:eh/ Ist es aber gebraten/ so nim{b} ein braune Bru:eh/ 
die du von einem Braten hast abgegossen/ mit einer Hennenbru:eh/ die fein lindt 
gesaltzen ist. Wenn man es wil anss ein Tisch anrichten/ so druckt man darein 
saur Pomerantzensafft/ so wirt es gut vnd lieblich.
9. You may well also make a gehack [OK, am not sure which way to go with this 
one part of me says like a chopped meat (kinda like Salisbury steak, and part 
of me says it is already cooked, so you chopped the cooked meat small and 
that is what he means...  is there a term for that? And what do you all 
think???] of it/ if it is white/ so take a clear chicken broth/ but if it is roasted/ so take a brown broth (gravy)/ that you poured off from a roast/ with a chicken broth/ that is mildly salted. When you wish to prepare it for the table/ so press therein sour sour-orange juice/ so it will be good and lovely. 

11. Du kanst auch ausz der Brust kleine Pasteten machen. 
11. You can also make small pies (pasties) from the breast.

12. Oder auch Spanische Pasteten.
12. Or also Spanish pasties (pies.)

13. Auch Spanische Krapffen.
13. Also Spanish crullers (fritters.)

14. Du kanst auch Manscho Blancko ausz der Brust machen/ wie vorhin 
vermeldt ist.
14. You can also make Mansho Blancko (blancmange) of the breast/ as was 
mentioned earlier.

15. Ausz dem Manscho Blancko kanstu machen ein Ungarische Turten.
15. From such a blancmange you can make Hungarian tortes.

16. Oder ein Spanische Turten.
16. Or a Spanish torte.

17. Auch ein Spanische Pasteten. (Seems to be a repeat of #12???)
17. Also a Spanish pastie (pie.)

18. Krapffen zum backen. Nim{b} Mehl/ warmes Wasser/ vnnd ein wenig 
Butter vnd Saltz/ mach das Mehl damit ab/ vnnd mach ein Teig darausz/ 
nicht gar zu dick/ dasz du jhn ausztreibest mit einem Walger/ schlag den 
Manscho Blancko darein/ vnd mach Krapffen darausz/ nim{b} heisse Butter/ 
vnd backs fein ku:ehl ausz/ dasz fein weisz bleibet/ vnnd nicht braun/ so 
wirdt der Teig resch vnd gut. Wen{n} du es anrichtest/ so bestra:ew es mit weissem Zucker.
18. To bake crullers (fritters.) Take flour/ warm water/ and a little 
butter and salt/ combine it with the flour/ and make a dough therefrom/ 
not too thick/ that you can spread it out with a roller/ enclose the 
blancmange thering/ and make a fritter (cruller) therefrum/ take hot butter/ 
and fry it nicely cool (as in not too high a heat)/ that it stays nicely 
white/ and does not brown/ so the dough becomes crispy and good. When you serve it/ so sprinkle it with white sugar.

19. Mach auch ein Musz ausz dem Manscho Blancko. Nim{b} dz Manscho 
Blancko/ vnd theils mit Eyern ab/ vn{d} mit su:esser Milch nim{b} ein Schu:essel/ vn{d} schmier die am Boden mit Butter/ die kalt ist/ thu darnach das Musz in die Schu:essel/ scheubs in ein Ofen/ vnd backs/ so wirt es 
feinAufflauffen/ vn{d} wenn du es anrichtest/ so bestra:ew es mit Zucker/ so wirt es gut.
19. Make also a Musz [there is that word ;-) I would say mash - think 
applesauce] of the blancmange. Take the blankemange/ and combine it with eggs/ and with sweet milk (as opposed to sour) take a bowl/ and smear the bottom with butter/ that is cold/ put thereafter the mash in the bowl/ put it in the oven/ and bake it/ so it becomes a nice casserole/ and when you serve it/ so sprinkle it with sugar/ so it will be good.

20. Du kanst auch von einem Indianischen Han ein lauter Br¸h zurichten/ und 
mehr als vierzig speiﬂ/ die nicht klein seind/ kochen. Du kanst dazu 
nemmen Magen/ Leber/ D‰rm und den Schweiﬂ. Und du darffst nichts davon 
wegwerffen/ kanst alles zu nuz machen.
20. You can also from a turkey prepare a clear broth/ and (cook)
more than forty dishes (servings)/ that are not small/. You can 
use the stomach (gizzard)/ liver/ intestines and the blood. You may not throw 
any of it away/ can make use of it all.

Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 16:35:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: alysk at ix.netcom.com
Subject: SC - Waffles, Turkey, and Trifle

Greetings.  Recently, there were posts (if my feeble brain recalls
correctly) about period documentation for waffles, turkey and trifle.
While bumming around during my vacation I came across some of each
and thought I'd post in case there still was interest - or it hadn't
been settled.

<snip of waffle info>

The turkey recipe is in _The Good Huswifes Jewell_, Thomas Dawson,
1596.  "To bake a Turkie and take out his bones".

"Take a fat Turkie, and after you have scalded him and 
washed him cleane, lay him upon a faire cloth and slit 
him through out the backs, and when you have taken out 
his garbage, then you must take out his bones so bare 
as you can, when you have so donne wash him cleane, then 
trusse him and bricke his backe together, and so have a 
faire kettle of seething water and berboyle him a little, 
then take him up that the water may runne cleane out from 
him, and when he is colde, season him with pepper and Salt, 
and then pricke hym with a few cloves in the breast, and also 
drawe him with larde if you like of it, and when you have 
maide your coffin and laide your Turkie in it, then you must 
put some Butter in it, and so close him up, in this sorte you 
may bake a goose, a Pheasant, or capon."

Nothing about roasted turkey legs!

<snip of trifle info - See desserts-msg>

Alys Katharine

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 20:36:21 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - More Turkeys

I came across two more mid 16th century
drawings this week that I had not seen before
depicting obvious New World turkeys.  These are
by the Flemish artist Peter Bruegel the Elder.  One is 
"Envy" in the famous 7 Deadly Sins series,  This was
drawn in 1557 and the turkey is the central animal figure,
apparently already well known as a symbol of "Envy" much
as the peacock accompanies Pride in another.
The other drawing is in "Fortitude" in the Seven Virtues
drawings.  The turkey is being slain as one of the monsters
of Sin. This drawing was also executed in 1557.  Just 
another example of evidence of the turkey being well
known in most of Europe by the mid 16th century.

Akim Yaroslavich

Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 20:19:19 GMT
From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Spanish recipe requests (long!)

Vi saluto, Marcello!

As far as New World foodstuffs go, Ruperto de Nola's "Libro de Cozina"  
features instructions for carving turkeys, as well as a sauce recipe:

"Carving of Birds and Firstly of Turkeys: Turkey is carved in this manner: 
remove the neck with the head, and then pull off the tail, and remove the 
feet, and then the wing tips, and then the right leg, and slice it fine. 
Then make a cut in the right breast, and take thick and thin slices, 
although some cut the breast thick like beef, especially when the meat is 
somewhat tough, and then turn it and cut it again on the other side, and on 
the rump there is another cut, which is to make it into thick slices, and 
remove the hips beforehand, and then remove the wings, and do it in such a 
way that carving the turkey leaves the carcass whole and without any meat 
left."

"Spices for Turkey Sauce: Cinnamon four ounces, cloves one ounce, ginger one 
ounce; enough saffron to tint the sauce well; grind and sift it well; some 
add grains of paradise."

"To Make Sauce For Turkey: For five serving bowls take a pound of toasted 
almonds; and grind them well in a mortar; and take the livers of turkeys or 
capons or chickens that have been cooked in a pot and grind them with the 
almonds; and then take the crumb of a loaf that has been soaked in orange 
juice or white vinegar, and the bread should be toasted; and then grind it 
all together with the almonds and the livers, and when it is all ground 
together thin the sauce with two egg yolks for each serving bowl; and then 
pass it through a sieve with the aforementioned fine spices, and once it has 
been strained, put it in a pot with the sugar and taste it for bitterness, 
which should not be excessive and then cook it until it is just done, and 
when it is done prepare the serving bowls and put sugar and cinnamon on the 
sauce."

The translations are my own; unfortunately I haven't done any redactions 
yet.  I'm just trying to get the darn thing into English!  I hope this helps 
some; I can send more if you e-mail me privately.

Saludos,

Vicente

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 23:55:15 -0500
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: SC - Recipe: stewed turkey with fruit

As I've mentioned before, Granado (1599) has a few recipes for 
"pollos de las Indias", which AFAIK, is turkey.  Here's one.  It's out 
of the section on cooking for invalids, hence the reference to the 
doctor.

Para sudar, y estufar perdizes, y faysanes
To sweat, and to stew partridges and pheasants

Take the pheasant, or the partridge, which should not be old or 
rancid, and clean their insides, cutting off the head, and the feet, 
and pass it through boiling water, or through the coals; take a 
copper pot, well tinned, or of glazed earthenware, with a bone from 
a calf or cow made into pieces, which has marrow, which is done 
to give it flavor; put in enough water to cover it three fingers deep, 
with a splinter of whole cinnamon, and a good deal of salt, and a 
few pieces of quince, and prunes, and dried cherries; and make it 
boil with the cover very well sealed, but before sealing it, you can 
put in half a cup of wine of San Martin, or another which is good, 
with a little vinegar, and sugar, all according to the order which the 
doctor directs, and cook it over the coals, far from the flames.  In 
this manner you can also cook the pullet of the Indies, and our 
ordinary pullets, and any good bird.

Notes: "wine of San Martin" probably refers to wine from the 
vineyards of San Martin de Valdeiglesias, near Madrid.  It was very 
highly regarded in this period.  I have seen wine of San Martin 
called for in period recipes that suggest a sweet white as an 
alternative.  If quinces are no longer available, perhaps a tart apple 
like a Granny Smith will do?

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 00:51:46 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: SC - La Varenne's turkey

Here's the French text of the La Varenne turkey recipe, as per Wheaton's
"Savoring the Past". Wheaton provides an adapted recipe in English, but
no translation of the original. As you all grit your teeth in
anticipation of some wonderful butchering, I'm sure I can rely on you
all to tell me where I'm wrong.

Here goes, La Varenne's recipe, my attempt at translation:

Apres qu'il est habille' levez  en le brichet et tirez la chair, que
vous hacherez avec graisse, et peu de chair de veau, que vous meslerez
ensemble  avec des jaunes d'oeufs et de pigeonneaux et le tout bien
assaisonne', vous remplirez vostre poulet-d'Inde, avec sel, poivre, clou
battu, et capres, puis le mettez a la' broche, et le ferez tourner bien
doucement, estant presque cuit tirez-le et le mettez dans une terrine
avec de bon bouillon, champignons et un bouquet. Pour lier la sauce,
prenez un peu de larde coupe', le faites passer par le poesle, lequel
estant fondu vous tirirez, et y meslerez un peu de farine, que vous
laisserez bien roussir et delayerez avec peu de bouillon et de vinaigre;
la mettez ensuite dans vostre terrine avec jus de citron, et servez; si
c'est en temps des framboises, vous y en mettrez une poigne'e par dessus.

	Francois La Varenne, Le cuisinier francois (1654)

After it is dressed raise the breast [the skin?] and pull out the flesh,
that you will chop with fat, and a little veal, that you will blend
together with egg yolks and young pigeons and all well-seasoned, you
stuff your India-hen, with salt, pepper, beaten cloves, and capers, then
put it on the spit, and will make it turn very gently, when it is almost
cooked draw it off and put it in a pot with good broth, mushrooms and a
bouquet. To bind the sauce, take a little chopped bacon, pass it through
the pan, which when melted remove it, and stir in a little flour, which
you will let turn well russet, and dilute with some broth and vinegar;
put then in your pot with some lemon juice, and serve; if raspberries
are in season, put a handful of it them over it. 

	Francois La Varenne, Le cuisinier francois (1654)

Wheaton's adaptation (I don't use that r-word, generally) seems to
describe a roasted, braised galantine of turkey, a galantine in the
modern sense of a boneless meat roll with garnishes built inside it. Her
ingredients list seems more or less accurate, she's just using them to
produce a different dish. Since La Varenne doesn't actually seem to be
boning the turkey (or at least the instructions don't seem to specify
it) the possibility exists that the stuffing, including the ground-up
breast meat, is reinserted into its former location under the breast
skin, or perhaps into the body cavity. Maybe the entire breast with ribs
and sternum are removed, boned, then later stuffed into the cavity and
under the skin. Alternately, the entire breast might be removed, skin
and all, and the forcemeat is just packed/mounded up between the legs
and wings in a breast shape, which might explain why you have to turn it
so gently on the spit.

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 16:51:45 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: SC - LaVarenne and the Raspberry Turkey

Sounds like a good title for a novel, doesn't it?

At any rate, I found the Falconwood Press edition that I have.  It was
translated into English sometime around 1653 by "I.D.G", and printed for
"Charls Adams, and are to be sold at his shop, at the Sign of the Talbot
neere St. Dunstan's Church in Fleetstreet, 1653.  There is a letter at
the beginning of the book from a DuFresne to the Right Honourable John
Ealy of Tannet, commending a French chef to the service of this lord.  I
cannot tell if this letter is about LaVarenne or some other cook, as
there is another reference to LaVarenne as  Clerk of the Kitchen to the
Lord Marquesse of Uxelles.

At any rate, having given you that information, which may or may not be
useful, here is I.D.G's translation of the requested turkey recipe:

1.  Turkie with Raspis
    When it is dressed, take up the brisket, and take out the flesh,
which you shall mince with suet and some little of Veal-flesh, which you
shall mix together with yolks
of  Eggs & young Pigeons, & all being well seasoned, you shall fill your
Turkie with it, and shall season it with Salt, Peper, beaten Cloves and
Capers, then you shall spit it, and turn it very softly; When it is
almost rosted, take it up, and put it into an Earthen pan with good
Broath, Mushrums, and a bundle of Herbs, which you shall make with
Parsley, thime and Chibols tied together; for to thicken the sauce, take
a little Lard sliced, pass it in the pan, and when it is melted, take it
out, and mix a little flower with it, which you shall make very brown,
and shall allay it with a little Broath and some Vinegar; then put it
into your Earthen pan with some Lemon juice and serve.
    If it be in the Raspis season, you shall put a handful of them over
it, if not, some Pomgranate.

Hope this helps.  For those of you who have asked for a copy of the
book, Phillip is going to see what he can do.  I'll keep you posted.

Kiri

Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:14:11 +0100
From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de
Subject: SC - Turkey

The 1593 edition of Vincenzo Cervio's 'Il trinciante' (an Italian
carving manual; reprinted 1980) deals among other things with _Gallo
d'India_ (turkey). The book includes a picture and a chapter "come si
trincia vn gallo d'India. Cap. XII." (How to carve a turkey). This
chapter begins with the words:

   "IL gallo d'India Ë vccello domestico, venuto pochi anni sono in
    Italia. ..."
    (The turkey is a domestic bird, which came/was imported to Italy
     a few years ago ...)

The first edition of Cervio was published somewhat earlier, in 1581, but
I did not see it. Anyway, the passage might serve as additional evidence
how the consumption of turkey spread in the second half of 16th century
Europe.

Thomas
(I put two pictures on my site: gallind2.jpg and gallind3.jpg)

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 02:28:45 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys and peacocks and knives, oh  my!

There's a very interesting illustration in one of the 16th century
Italian carving manuals hosted on the Fons Grewe website:
http://www.bib.ub.es/grewe/showbook.pl?gw009
Type 18 in the search window, and click "anar a" (go to).
It's a comparative illustration of a gallo d'India (turkey) and pavone
(peacock).

If you then click "endavant" (forward), it will take you to a picture of
kitchen implements, including a tongs-like device to hold an egg for
carving.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:59:15 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] food myths (Turkey)

Markham may be dated 1638 here not 1683. Since this is The English
Housewife we are discussing, that book dates from its first appearance
in 1615 as part of Countrey Contentments.

William Harrison includes material on the turkey in his A Description of Elizabethan England. Written for Holinshed’s Chronicles in the 1570's.

Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway

Daniel Myers wrote:
> Thanks for that reference!  I had the turkey in the period foods
> database from the "The English Housewife" [G. Markham, 1683] but had
> missed this one.

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 16:43:01 -0500

Turkeys (Meleagris gallopavo, the particular variant being the Rio Grande
turkey) came from Mexico to Spain in 1528 with the return of Hernando
Cortez.  Within 20 years (IIRC), they were being raised by at least one
member of the House of Valois.

The turkey, due to its superior taste, began replacing peacocks, bustards,
swans, etc.  At first it was rare but by the end of the century it appears
to have become a commodity available through the poultry sellers.

A woodcut and recipe appear in Rumpolt, so the bird was known and eaten from
England to Germany.

Bear

Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 17:42:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] food myths (Turkey)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Marx Rumpolt not only has recipes for Turkey in
his 1581 cookbook, but also a drawing of one.

Huette

From: "Johnna Holloway" <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:41:51 -0400

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kirsten Houseknecht" <kirsten at fabricdragon.com>
> dont forget that there was also a European bird that was called "turky"
> Kirsten

-----------------------------------------------------
Here's part of the OED run down since you were inquiring. This I posted off
to Daniel originally and not to the list.
If you want the earliest references, you should see
C. Anne Wilson as she says that they were mentioned in 1541.
If you don't already have one get a copy of Wilson. She's still
essential.

These are earlier than Harrison---
OED cites these:
1541 Constitutio T. Cranmeri in Wilkins Concilia (1737) III. 862 It was
also provided, that of the greater fyshes or fowles there should be but
one in a dishe, as crane, swan, turkeycocke, hadocke, pyke, tench.
1555 Eden Decades 79 The inhabitantes of Paria..gaue them also a greate
multitude of theyr peacockes [L. pavones]. [margin] Paria. Peacockes
whiche wee caule Turkye cockes.

Those birds may be guinea hens however as are the turkey hens spoken of
here:
1552 Elyot, Meleagrides, byrdes, whiche we doo call hennes of Genny, or
Turkie hennes.
1578 Lyte Dodoens ii. lii. 214 Called..Flos Meleagris..from a kinde of
birde..whose feathers be speckled..not with Violet speckes, but with
white and blacke spots, lyke to the feathers of the Turkie or Ginny hen,
which is called Meleagris auis: some do also cal this flower
Fritillaria.
1601 Holland Pliny I. 296 The Ginnie or Turkey hens in a part of Africke
called Numidia, be in great request.
1555 Eden Decades 158 They [of Yucatan] brought..eyght of their hennes
beynge as bygge as peacockes, of brownyshe coloure, and not inferiour to
peacockes in pleasaunte tast. [margin] Turky hens.
1580 Hollyband Treas. Fr. Tong, Poule d'Inde, a Turkie henne.

The following however is reckoned to be  the New World turkey.
1555 in Dugdale Orig. Jurid. xlviii. (1666) 135 Turkies 2. rated at 4s.
a piece..00. 08. 00.
1573 Tusser Husb. (1878) 89 Runciuall pease..more tender and greater
they wex, If peacock and turkey leaue iobbing their bex.
1596 Shaks. 1 Hen. IV, ii. i. 29 The Turkies in my Pannier are quite
starued.

 I will delete the references to Harrison except to note that Dover
reprinted the 1586 edition. and the section on poultry
begins in that edition on page 314. Turkey is mentioned on 317.

Johnnae llyn Lewis Johnna Holloway

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 11:05:31 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey)

Numida meleagris, the guinea fowl, which is of African origin and was
originally imported into Europe by the Romans.  AS I recall they appear in
Roman literature as "Numidean hens."  They seem to disappear from Europe
during the Middle Ages and began being re-imported in the 15th Century.

In Food, Waverley Root provides commentary about the naming confusion
between guinea fowl and North American turkeys.

Bear

> dont forget that there was also a European bird that was
> called "turky"
> Kirsten

From: "Barbara G. Dodge" <awench1 at cox.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 23:56:07 -0400
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkey (was Food Myths)

A sculpture of a turkey was done by Giovanni Da Bologna in 1560.  It
definitely looks like the standard turkey we are used to seeing today, so
there is no doubt that some people were familiar with our favorite
"gobbler"!

The site I was searching is The Web Gallery of Art at:
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/index1.html

If you click on the letter G on the left of the page, you can scroll through
all the names till you find Giovanni Da Bologna.

The site is wonderful, you can search by the time frame and narrow down your
search to the period you are interested in.  There is also an artist
(Giuseppe Arcimboldo1530-1593) who painted using fruits and vegetables to
form the features of the face!  In one of his paintings (Vertumnus), it
looks like he has used corn on the cob.  Could I be mistaking it for another
vegetable?

I do realize that just because these things appear in period works of art it
doesn't mean they ate them.  But it just might give one, well...food for
thought!

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey)
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 08:40:44 -0500

The guinea fowl is native to Africa and is named after the Guinea Coast in
West Africa, suggesting that it was brought into Europe from there, which
would probably mean 15th Century Portuguese.  In the US, they are commonly
called Hungarian guinea fowl, because they were originally imported into
North America from Hungary (I haven't found the proof for this one, so I
consider it likely, but apocryphal).

The bird ranges between the size of a large chicken and a small turkey.
Probably 7 to 12 pounds dressed.

Known to the Romans as the Numidian hen, the guinea fowl appears to have
disappeared from Europe following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire.
It may have been raised and eaten in the Islamic world, but its apparent
unavailability in Europe suggests otherwise.  If it was returned to Europe
during the early Portuguese explorations, then, like maize and capsicum
peppers, it was probably traded into the Levant via Genoa and Venice and
brought into Central Europe by the Ottoman Turks.

BTW, Numidia coincides roughly with modern Algeria, so the bird was West
African even in Roman times.  It is possible that climate change and local
hunting reduced its range during the late Roman period, so that it was no
longer readily available to the Mediterranean basin.

A few facts and a lot of speculation.

Bear

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: food myths (Turkey)
Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 16:35:30 -0500

And all of the references are English, so here are a few non-English ones.

The earliest citation for "turkey" I have seen is for the accounts of one
Arnot Arnaud for roast turkey at a banquet for Phillpe of Burgundy, 12
November 1385.  Since I haven't seen anything purporting to be actual
accounts, I can not say whther this reference really exists or what the
period wording was.  If this is an actual reference, it may be to a guinea
fowl or to some other bird imported from the East.

According to Toussaint-Samat, New World turkey was first "officially" served
in France at the wedding of Charles IX in 1570.  However his mother,
Catherine de' Medici served 70 Indian hens and 7 Indian roosters at a feast
at the bishopric of Paris in 1549.

Rabelais mentions guinea fowl (guynette) in Pantagruel (1532) and turkeys
(coq d'Indie) in Garganyua (1534).

Marguerite d'Angouleme (Maguerite of Navarre) contracted with a farmer in
Navarre to raise turkeys for her table.  This had to be after 1527, when she
married Henry of Navarre, and before her death in 1549.  Her brother was
Francis I of France (1494-1547).  Francis was Rabelais' patron, so one might
suspect a connection, hmmm.

In L'agriculture et la maison rustique (1564), Charles Estienne comments on
the (New World) turkey's voracious appetite and the fact that it arrived at
the same time as its food (maize).

Bear

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] RE: Turkey (Was Food Myths)
Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2002 13:19:34 -0500

The period French for the bustard is "bistarde" or  "outarde."  For the
turkey, it is "coq d'Inde," sometimes abbreviated to "dinde."  So, without
the original text or an accurate transcription, it is difficult to determine
what is being referred to as a turkey except that it can't be the New World
turkey and probably isn't the European Great Bustard.

BTW, bustard refers to a number of species which fill the ecological niche
in Europe, Asia and Africa, that the turkey fills in North and Central
America.  The European Great Bustard (Otis tarda) isn't extinct, but is no
longer found normally in Northern Europe.

Bear

>Bear cites:
>>The earliest citation for "turkey" I have seen is for the accounts of one
>>Arnot Arnaud for roast turkey at a banquet for Phillpe of Burgundy, 12
>>November 1385.  Since I haven't seen anything purporting to be actual
>>accounts, I can not say whther this reference really exists or what the
>>period wording was.  If this is an actual reference, it may be to a guinea
>>fowl or to some other bird imported from the East.
>
>This obviously cannot be the New World bird, but could it have been the
>similar native European fowl (now extinct), the bustard?  From my reading,
>the main reason for the rapid acceptance of turkey was its resemblance to the
>bustard in size and (apparently) taste.  Do we have any data as to when the
>bustards were eaten out of existance?  Did the dates overlap the introduction
>of the turkey?
>
>Akim
>--- Diamond Randall

Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:46:27 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Turkey (Was Food Myths)

While unable to do e-mail over the weekend, I checked Peter Brears and
in All the King's Cooks, he states:

"Turkeys were also available at this period; they were brought into
Europe from Mexico and Central America about 1523-4, and into England at
about the same time by the Strickland family of Boynton near Bridlington
in East Riding. see page 38.

This would make turkeys appropriate for Tudor Cookery beginning in the
1530's or perhaps as much as 70 years earlier than the usual very late
1590's dates that are usually cited. If one wants to roast a turkey for
a Tudor feast, then Brears is the source to check out. Certainly we are
not going to serving swan, crane, heron, bustarde, etc.

It also occurred to me that I ought to mention that PPC ran an excellent
series on the great birds that were served in the Middle Ages.  The
author was Joop Witteveen and in 4 issues of PPC the author covered
swans, cranes, herons and peacocks.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 15:37:04 +0000
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Peacock Re: [Sca-cooks] larding turkeys and other meats
To sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Turkeys are mentioned as part of the 'shopping lists' in Beards book All the
Kings Cooks.  I don't have the book here at work but I know they are
referenced in there.

Olwen O

Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2004 10:31:57 -0500 (EST)
From: sabine eiche <sabinedellarovere at yahoo.ca>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] book on history of turkeys
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I have dipped into your messages on occasion, mostly by way of  
Florilegium.org. Since turkeys, especially the history of the turkey,  
has been a topic of interest to this list, I thought everyone would be  
pleased to know that my book on the reception and impact of the New  
World turkey in the Old World was published at the beginning of October  
in Florence by the art publisher Centro Di.

Presenting the Turkey: The Fabulous Story of a Flamboyant and  
Flavourful Bird will be distributed in the US next year, but in the  
meantime for anyone who doesn't want to wait, it can be ordered through  
Michael Shamansky's book import service: www.artbooks.com, search with  
in my name, Sabine Eiche, or the title.

Sabine Eiche

Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2004 16:39:25 -0600
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: New World Foods- was Re: [Sca-cooks] Earthapples eyc
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> For evidence you can look to Rumpoldt's chapter on Turkey, in it he  
> tells you to make Blancmange out of the Turkey Breast,
>
> William de Grandfort> Not roasted??  Curious.

In the Chapter for Indianishen Hen there are 20 recipes and
suggestions for how to use the Turkey. The blancmange was simply one
of the ways that illustrated my point. He also includes roasted as a
good cooking method. And he states that it is a good food cold, smart
man.

--Serena da Riva

Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 21:40:49 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Medieval turkey?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I just did a short article for the Pale (MK newsletter) on
great birds and turkeys. It appeared in the November Pale
and pointed out sources for turkeys in the 16th century.
I recommend Sabine Eiche’s wonderful new book Presenting the Turkey.
http://www.antique-acc.com/ACCUS/acatalog/ACCUS_Centro_Di_214.html

[NOTE: Johnnae's article is available in the Florilegium as:
Turkeys-a-GB-art   (6K) 12/14/05    "On Turkeys and Great Birds" by Johnnae llyn Lewis. 
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/Turkeys-a-GB-art.html
   -Stefan ]

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:12:36 -0800
From: "Steve Berry" <srberry at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can't
	remember...
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< Ok color me an idiot, but Turkey Is NOT Period.    Right?  Turkey's are
new world right?

Nichola >>>

Turkeys are found in several embroidery picture books/bestiaries from the
late 16th, early 17th century.  Were they just pets or were they eaten?
Either way, they were known because people like Peter Stent and Konrad
Gesler were drawing them.....

Dame Arwen Lioncourt

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:46:03 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life
	can'tremember...
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

They were eaten.  There are references to them being raised to be eaten,
Rumpolt has recipes, and Vincenzo Campi's "Poultry Seller" (very late 16th
Century) has a dead turkey being plucked by the poultry seller.

Bear

> Turkeys are found in several embroidery picture books/bestiaries from the
> late 16th, early 17th century.  Were they just pets or were they eaten?
> Either way, they were known because people like Peter Stent and Konrad
> Gesler were drawing them.....
>
> Dame Arwen Lioncourt

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:51:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the life can't
	remember...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Turkeys are New World, but since they were similar to other large birds like
the guinea hen, they were assimilated into European menus much faster than
other things, like plants.

Here is a drawing of a turkey from 1581:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm

and here is the corresponding recipe, translated by Gwen Cat:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_fowl1.htm

Turkeys are mentioned in England in 1541, in sumptuary laws.  In France, Queen
Marguerite of Navarre is recorded to have raised them in Alencon in 1534.  In
1549, 66 turkeys were served at a feast for Catherine de Medici.  Turkeys were
also served in Liege, Belgium in 1557, using three different methods  
of preparation.

So, turkeys can be considered period.

Huette

Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:14:54 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkey was Ok Now I KNOW THIS but for the
	life can't remember...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I wrote an article titled On Turkeys and Great Birds
last year that Stefan placed in the
Florilegium as a file-- Turkeys-a-GB-art - 12/14/05

This year I would add that Andy Smith's new book
titled THE TURKEY is out and is a marvelous companion work
to go along with Presenting the Turkey.
Smith goes into Markham and his use of the turkey.

Johnnae

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Loidolt <mjloidolt at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period!
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish  
introduced the Mayan Turkey (different species than NA wild turkey)  
into Europe by 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets  
in ENGLAND by 1540 because Henry VIII put a price limit on how much  
one could charge.  By the time the Pilgrims left for NA they had  
already seen turkeys in the markets to England and the Netherlands.  
The Dutch were already breeding WHITE turkeys by 1670...

   The Spanish Blacks were introduced to England and there developed  
into the Norfolk Blacks, these are now two of the oldest and rarest  
breeds of turkeys left...the ancestral Mayan bird is in decline as well.

   Now, I have to say the word 'turkey' can be mis-leading and we  
need to know that Guineas have been called 'turkeys' for a long time  
before the NA bird..which is why the NA bird was first called the  
INDIAN turkey...until of course we realized that we weren't in India...

   sorry, ramblings of a poultry laurel....
   Johann von Metten
   aren't ya glad ya didn't get me going on chickens and eggs!! lol!!

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:15:01 -0500
From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Tasting heritage turkeys
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

http://www.post-gazette.com/food/20021121turkey1121fnp2.asp
-- 
Saint Phlip

Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 10:42:26 -0500
From: "grizly" <grizly at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period! (getting detailed now)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

-----Original Message-----
< < < < < I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish
introduced the Mayan Turkey(different species than NA wild turkey) into
Europe by 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets in ENGLAND
by 1540 because HenryVIII put a price limit on how much one could charge.
By the time the Pilgrims left for NA they had already seen turkeys in the
markets to England and the Netherlands. The Dutch were already breeding
WHITE turkeys by 1670...

   Now, I have to say the word 'turkey' can be mis-leading and we need to
know that Guineas have been called 'turkeys' for a long time before the NA
bird..which is why the NA bird was first called the INDIAN turkey...until of
course we realized that we weren't in India...

   sorry, ramblings of a poultry laurel....
   Johann von Metten
   aren't ya glad ya didn't get me going on chickens and eggs!! lol!! 
 > > > > > >

The trouble is that the word "turkey" has meant at least two different birds
since the 1500's.  Not knowing specifically which one is identified in a
given reference means we run the risk of misunderstanding the reference and
time tag.

My cursory reading about the subject leads me to the similarities and
differences between the "Mayan" and "North American" breeds.  Both are from
the subfamily Meleagridinae and Genus Meleagris; Mayan (Ocellated) is
species Meleagris ocellta and NA is species Meleagris gallopavo.  Confusing
the mess is that Helmeted Guineafowl are Numida meleagris.  Though what I've
read suggest that differences are small, the earliest dates I can find for
domestication of the Mayan (Ocellated) are in the 1800's; and everything says
that the Eastern Wild Turkey forbears is more likely what was transported to
the Old World.  I'd like the reference information about introduction of the
Mayan turkeys by 1500; that would add a lot to my understanding and clarify
some of my confusions. They Mayans are not sexual dimorphs . . . they aren't
distinctly different in appearance by gender . . . as are most every other
breed I can find through Europe.

Europeans developed the Black and the Royal Palm breeds at some point after
introduction of the North American Wild Turkey.  Americans seem to have been
domesticating the birds since colonial times, and breeding them in various
strains at least since the 1800' . . . they got serious about turkey
production and modification in the 1940's.

See?  There is a lot to know about "period" when talking about turkeys, and
we are stuck working backwards for much of it.  Even when we are talking
certainly about North American Galliformes in history, there's a lot to
figure out.

niccolo difrancesco

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 00:14:03 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Actually, there is high probability that the Spanish introduced two
different species at about the same time;  Agriocharis ocellata (AKA
Meleagris ocellata) the Central American or "Mayan" turkey and Meleagris
gallopavo riograndensis, both of which range into Mexico.  The latter bird
is quite a bit larger than the Eastern woodland turkey, is often tan in
color and does a lot of upright walking because it is a plains bird.  In my
opinion, the white domesticated turkey is most likely a descendent of the
Rio Grande turkey.

Oklahoma is at the western edge of the woodland turkey's range and the
northeastern edge of the Rio Grande turkey's range and I've had the pleasure
of observing both in the field.

Bear

> I'm sorry, but the poultrier has to weigh in here...The Spanish introduced
> the Mayan Turkey(different species than NA wild turkey) into Europe by
> 1500. The birds were being raised and sold in markets in ENGLAND by 1540
> because HenryVIII put a price limit on how much one could charge.  By the
> time the Pilgrims left for NA they had already seen turkeys in the markets
> to England and the Netherlands. The Dutch were already breeding WHITE
> turkeys by 1670...
>  The Spanish Blacks were introduced to England and there developed into
> the Norfolk Blacks, these are now two of the oldest and rarest breeds of
> turkeys left...the ancestral Mayan bird is in decline as well.
>  Johann von Metten

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 06:45:47 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period!
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> The quote means that "Turkeys are Period" in certain places in Europe and
> England by 1500=1540... That doesn't mean that it was period for prior to
> that time (not Italian quadrocento, not "Viking", not the Court of Richard
> II of England, not Anglo-Saxon.

1527 rather than 1500 with the first goodies from the newly conquered lands
in Mexico.

> Johann, isn't there also some reason to think that the Turkey came in
> through the trade routes from the middle East and thought of as native to
> India or Turkey?
>
> Regina

I'm not Johann, but I can answer that with an almost definitive "No."  While
several things are thought to have come into Europe from North America via
Asia, the connection is the Spanish trade between the Philippines and the
West Coast of Mexico and South America, the Manila galleons.  The Spanish
did not enter the Philippines until 1543 and the trade with Mexico didn't
start until 1564.  The entrance of the North American turkey into Europe
pre-dates both of these events.

Chili peppers, although Fuchs identifies them as being from India, appear in
his herbal of 1541, so they obviously came in the front door.  White
potatoes, however, appear at such a late date, that there is speculation
they came into Europe from Chile via the Manila trade.

Bear

Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 13:20:26 -0800
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys ARE Period!
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

...

>> Johann, isn't there also some reason to think that the Turkey came in
>> through the trade routes from the middle East and thought of as  
>> native to India or Turkey?

...

> I'm not Johann, but I can answer that with an almost definitive "No."  While
> several things are thought to have come into Europe from North America via
> Asia, the connection is the Spanish trade between the Philippines and the
> West Coast of Mexico and South America, the Manila galleons.  The Spanish
> did not enter the Philippines until 1543 and the trade with Mexico didn't
> start until 1564.  The entrance of the North American turkey into Europe
> pre-dates both of these events.

One account I have heard is that turkeys were brought from Spain to
England by merchants who traded from the eastern Mediterranean to
England via Spain. They were referred to as "turkey merchants," hence
the name for the bird. I have no idea if the account is correct.
-- 
David/Cariadoc

Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 18:37:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Italian sumptuary laws / turkey 1559
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Googling for Giambonino da Cremona viz. Iamboninus Cremonensis, I stumbled
upon a 700 page volume on Italian sumptuary laws including many source texts.

The laws cover the time span from the XIIIth to the XVIth century.

The introduction is in Italian, the sources are written in Latin and italian:

http://www.archivi.beniculturali.it/DGA-free/Fonti/Fonti_XLI.pdf

I haven't had the time to examine the texts. However, searching for "mangiare" I found a passage from 1559, where there is a regulation on how to use turkeys (galline d'India) and Blancmanger (mangiare biancho) in wedding feasts.

The quotation might add to our picture of the spread of turkey in 16th century cuisine.

(For those interested in the Italian text: It is on page 337 of the book, and at PDF-number 369.)

I am sure, there is more of it, but I must leave it to other readers.

Emilio

Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 14:52:13 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian sumptuary laws / turkey 1559
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There is a book that goes into the turkey in Italy.
It's by Sabine Eiche. In English the title is Presenting the Turkey.
Really good selection of artwork, inc. pottery and paintings.

http://members.shaw.ca/seiche/pubs.html

Johnna

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:44:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Marion McNealy <m_mc_nealy at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Indian Hens, pictures of Turkeys
To: SCA Cooks List <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I ran across this book today in the Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek (Bavarian State Library) and in browsing through it, found these two pages depicting "Indian Hens", which look a lot like wild turkeys to me.  The book was published in Frankfurt in 1592.

Amman, Jost / Bocksberger, Hans <der ?ltere> / Schaller, Georg: Thierbuch, Francfurt 1592 [VD16 S 2261]

Indian Hens 
Male, pg 206
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=206

Female, pg 207
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=207

Chickens, pg 214
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=214

I have not translated the poems yet, but here is the transcribed text 
Male: Vom Indianischen Han

Das ist ein Indianisch han/
So gstr?ubelt sirst auff diesem Plan/
Manich Farben er tragen thut/
Zu essen sind sie trefflich gut/
Und ist nicht lang / dars in Teutschlandt/
Diser Vogel erst ward befannt.

Wie uns Wunsterus das erzehlt/
F?r F?rsten essen man jhn helt
Die Farb am halb er endern fan/
Wenn mans nicht wil zu frieden lan/
Sondern erz?rnt mit grosser Roth
Am gantzen hal? er wirdt Blurot

Female: Vonder Indianischen Henne

Hie stchet das Weiblein nach dem Han/
Welch (wie geh?rt) au? Indian
Herkommen/und in unsern Landen/
Vor grosser k?lt nicht viel vorhanden.
Drumb ben uns mit grossen bschwerden/
Und kostens viel/ erzongen werden.
Wenn sie hugert/schreit gar grewilich/
De? Schnabels fleisch wirfft ubersich.
Lurnerus und Bellonius
W?llen da? Melegrus/
Dieser Vogel genennet werd/
Weiler sein farb am halb verkehrt.

Lady Sophia Kress
Kingdom of Atlantia
Barony of Marinus

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:26:26 -0400
From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian Hens, pictures of Turkeys
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Female, pg 207
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=207

Chickens, pg 214
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=214
===========

Rumpolt has the same images as these two.  This kind of image (woodcut?) tended to be recycled by the publishers.

http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm

Ranvaig

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 16:08:55 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian Hens, pictures of Turkeys
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Marcus Gheeraerts the Elder has depictions of turkeys that predate this 
book.
They are in /Freytag/, Arnold.  /Mythologia ethica/. Antverpiae: 1579.
The book that goes into the 16th century artwork associated with
the turkey is Presenting the Turkey by Eiche.

Johnnae

Marion McNealy wrote:
I ran across this book today in the Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek (Bavarian State Library) and in browsing through it, found these two pages depicting "Indian Hens", which look a lot like wild turkeys to me.  The book was published in Frankfurt in 1592.

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:05:05 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Indian Hens, pictures of Turkeys
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< I ran across this book today in the Bayerischen Staatsbibliothek (Bavarian 
State Library) and in browsing through it, found these two pages depicting 
"Indian Hens", which look a lot like wild turkeys to me.  The book was 
published in Frankfurt in 1592.

Amman, Jost / Bocksberger, Hans <der ?ltere> / Schaller, Georg: Thierbuch, 
Francfurt 1592 [VD16 S 2261]

Indian Hens
Male, pg 206
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=206

Female, pg 207
http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/0002/bsb00027991/images/index.html?seite=207

Lady Sophia Kress >>>

What is interesting about these woodcuts is the birds in them appear to be 
Meleagris gallopavo silvesteris or the eastern woodland turkey, which has a 
range from the Atlantic seaboard to Oklahoma.

The turkeys that were imported into Europe and became the basis for 
domesticated turkeys are likely either M. g. intermedia (AKA M. g. 
riograndensis) which range into Northern Mexico or M. g. gallopavo, the 
southern Mexican turkey.  Argument has been made for Agriocharis ocellata, 
the ocellated turkey, being the source for the domesticated turkey and it 
was maintained in pens in the Yucatan, but, in my opinion, the color and 
conformation don't seem to match known paintings.

I haven't seen a southern Mexican turkey, but the Rio Grande turkey I've 
observed looks a lot like the turkey in Vincento Campi's The Poultry Seller.

Bear 

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 10:24:22 -0500
From: "Kingstaste" <kingstaste at comcast.net>
To: meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TY] Elizabethan Turkey

I offer [here] a few recipes from Elizabethan
England, where the Turkie-bird was a very popular thing indeed. 

Christianna

Here is a drawing of a turkey from 1581:

http://clem. <http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm>
mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm
<http://clem. <http://clem.mscd.edu/%7Egrasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm>
mscd.edu/%7Egrasse/GK_ASsp99_turkeypix.htm> 

This turkey recipe is from  _The Good Huswifes Jewell_, Thomas Dawson,

1596. "To bake a Turkie and take out his bones".

"Take a fat Turkie, and after you have scalded him and washed him cleane,
lay him upon a faire cloth and slit him through out the backs, and when you
have taken out his garbage, then you must take out his bones so bare as you
can, when you have so donne wash him cleane, then trusse him and bricke his
backe together, and so have a faire kettle of seething water and berboyle
him a little, then take him up that the water may runne cleane out from him,
and when he is colde, season him with pepper and Salt, and then pricke hym
with a few cloves in the breast, and also drawe him with larde if you like
of it, and when you have maide your coffin and laide your Turkie in it, then
you must put some Butter in it, and so close him up, in this sorte you may
bake a goose, a Pheasant, or capon."

From the book Christmas Feasts by Lorna Sass:

"Soon after the turkey was brought from the new World to Europe in the early
16th century, it gained almost immediate popularity as holiday fare,
gradually replacing the swan and peacock of the medieval table. C. Anne
Wilson, in Food and Drink in Britain, claims that turkeys arrived at the
London market shortly before the Christmas season, having been driven on
foot for a three-month journey from as far away as Suffolk. Such
well-exercised birds were likely to be tough and lean, calling for "pretty
big lard" as this recipe suggests. 

Most 17th-century recipes for turkey call for roasting it "stuck with
cloves." When baked in pies, the turkeys were often surrounded by clarified
butter, an indication that they would be stored for use at some later date."

To Bake A Turkey

"Take a turkey-chicken, bone it, and lard it with pretty big lard, a pound
and a half will serve, then season it with an ounce of pepper, an ounce of
nutmegs, and two ounces of salt, lay some butter in the bottom of the pye,
then lay on the fowl, and put in six or eight whole cloves, then put on all
the seasoning with good store of butter, close it up, and baste it over with
eggs, bake it, and being baked fill it up with clarified butter. 

Thus you may bake them for to be eaten hot, given them but half the
seasoning, and liquor it with gravy and juyce of orange.

Bake this pye in fine paste; for more variety you may make a stuffing for it
as followeth; mince some beef-suet and a little veal very fine, some sweet
herbs, grated nutmeg, pepper, salt, two or three raw yolks of eggs; some
boild skirrets or pieces of artichokes, grapes or gooseberries, etc." 

The Accomplist Cook, (1671), Robert May 

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 12:22:51 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkey was Squash was Re:Helewyse's latest
	feast

There are two excellent books on the turkey.
Eiche, Sabine. /Presenting the Turkey. The Fabulous Story of a
Flamboyant and Flavourful Bird./ Florence, Italy: Centro Di, 2004.
Distributed in the USA by the Antique Collectors' Club Ltd. ISBN No:
8870384144. Huge number of illustrations including many from the 16th 
century.

Smith, Andrew F. /The Turkey/. Chicago and Urbana: The University of
Illinois Press, 2006. ISBN: 0252031636.

Doc also has a copy of my article on turkeys and should be putting it 
up on his website this fall.

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:45:25 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkey was Squash

Jean-Louis Flandrin in Food: A Culinary History writes, "At a banquet given 
by Catherine de' Medici at the bishopric of Paris in 1549, seventy "Indian 
chickens" costing twenty sols apiece and seven "Indian roosters" costing 
thirty sols were served. The most surprising thing is these prices were 
already markedly below the prices for native birds such as peacock and heron 
(forty sols), pheasant and bustard (seventy sols), crane (eighty sols), swan 
(a hunderd sols) and so on."

A sol is 12 deniers (roughly equivalent to the shilling).

While I have no evidence at this point, I think that the relatively low cost 
of the turkey is because it was already a domesticated bird in Mexico and 
was farm raised in Europe, where the other large birds were most likely 
taken from the wild.

Bear 

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:02:17 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Game for Your Feast

Turkey wasn't available prior to 1523-7 when the first fruits of Mexico 
began flowing back to Europe. However, they were being farmed in Europe by 
the mid-16tgh Century to the extent that they were served at a feast given 
by Catherine de Medici in 1549 and they were less expensive than peacocks, 
pheasants, bustyards, cranes, swans, etc.

Guinea fowl were probably available.

Bear

<<< BTW, one little quibble: I doubt that turkey was served in the middle
ages. Maybe in the Renaissance, certainly thereafter, but I think not
before.

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark >>>

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 23:47:24 -0500
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Game for Your Feast

<<< Turkey wasn't available prior to 1523-7 when the first fruits of 
Mexico began flowing back to Europe. However, they were being 
farmed in Europe by the mid-16tgh Century to the extent that they 
were served at a feast given by Catherine de Medici in 1549 and they 
were less expensive than peacocks, pheasants, bustyards, cranes, 
swans, etc. >>>

I'll give my Rumpolt bit: in 1581, turkey was common enough that 20 
turkey recipes are given (compared to 17 for duck), with a picture so 
there is no question about what was served.

Ranvaig

Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 07:54:43 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] large birds for feasts

As Bear and Ranvaig haveaddressed Gwen Cat's translation of 20 
pre-1600 turkey recipes from Rumpolt (1581)", I will just mention that 
there are also numerous turkey recipes in the English canon.

A very quick search taking just seconds on medievalcookery.com reveals 
these--

A Book of Cookrye To make sauce for capons or Turky Fowles
To bake Turky Fowles.

The Good Housewife's Jewell To baje a Turkie and take out his bones

A NEVV BOOKE of Cookerie To bake a Turkey

And we have a great variety of art featuring the turkey too. See 
Eiche, Sabine. Presenting the Turkey. The Fabulous Story of a 
Flamboyant and Flavourful Bird. Florence,
Italy: Centro Di, 2004.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 05:20:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] large birds for feasts

De wrote: 
<<< I agree with listing what is being served and saying "item in the style of".
I will note that those who have renaissance persona's would not have found
turkey futuristic. It can be found in at least two paintings from the late
1500s, one of which is a fowl seller prepping a dead turkey and yes it is a
turkey and not a bustard. Still, to my knowledge there haven't been found a
pre-1600s recipe for turkey so one can only do the "turkey in the style of"
or "so&such made with turkey" >>>

I offer to you recipes from Scappi 1570, and a description from Romolo 1593, 
please note that in the description on how to roast it he says "Of the flesh of 
the breast one can make chunks and balls and all those dishes which one makes 
with the lean meat of milk fed veal in chapters 43 and 47" which gives you 
permission to utilize turkey instead of veal. A position it still often takes 
in Italy today. This isn't by any stretch all the turkey recipes in Scappi, just 
two of them. 

Helewyse

Per arrostire il Gallo, & la Gallina d'India, liquali in alcuni lochi d'Italia 
di dimandano pavoni d'India. Cap CXLI, Secondo Libro, Scappi
Il gallo, & la gallina d'India son molto piu grossi di corpo che non ? il pavone 
nostrale, et il gallo fa la ruota, anchor egli come il pavone nostrale, et ha le 
piume negre, et bianche, et il collo cresputo di pelle, et in capo la testa un 
corno di carne, il qual quando il gallo si corruccia, gonfia, et vien grosso in 
modo che gli cuopre tutto i mostaccio, et alcuni altri hanno il detto corno 
rosso mescolato di pavonazzo, ? largo di petto, et nella punta d'esso petto ha 
una pannocchia di setole a modo di quelle del porco congiunte nelle piume, et ha 
la carne molto piu bianca, et piu molle del pavone nostrale, et si frolla piu 
presto che il cappone, et altri simili volatili. Volendolo arrostire nello 
spedo, non si lasci riposare dop? la sua morte il Verno con li suoi interiori in 
corpo piu di quattro in si giorni, et l'Estade piu di due giorni; spiumisi 
asciutto o con acqua calda (come si ha da spiumare ancho la gallina) spiumato 
che sar?, et privo delli suoi interiori, accommadisigli il petto, percioche ha 
un osso nel petto assai piu alto che non hanno gli altri volatili, e taglisi la 
pelle da una banda approesso aldetto osso, e stacchisi con destrezza la carne 
dal detto osso, et taglisi la punta del detto ossso con un coltello che rada, e 
ricusciasi la pelle, e volendosi empire empiasi d'una delle compositioni dette 
nel cap 115, taglinosigli, & lascisigli la testa, & li piedi, & facciasi rifare 
nella acqua, & rifatto che sar?, lascisi rifreddare, & impillottisi di lardo 
minuto, benche essendo grasso, & pieno non occorrer? impillottarlo di lardo, ma 
vi si haveranno da ponere alcuni chiodi di garoani; inspedisi, & facciasi 
cuocere adagio, tal volatile si cuoce molto piu presto che il pavone nostrale. 
Della polpo del petto si possono fare polpette, ballotte, e tutte quelle vivande 
che si fanno della carne magra della vitella mongana nel cap 43 & 47 cosi ancho 
di quella della gallina d'India, & del pavone nostrale, per? subito che saranno 
morti, percioche essendo frolli non riescono cosi saporiti; Il detto gallo; e 
gallina hanno la medesima stagione che il pavone nostrale; ? ben vero che in 
Roma si usano tutto l'anno, li suoi interiori si accommodano come quelli del 
pavone nostrale soprascritto.

To roast cock and hen of India, this is called in various places in Italy, 
Peahen of India. Chapter 141, 2nd book, Scappi

The cock and hen of India are much bigger in the body than our Peahens, and the 
cock makes the fanned display also like our peahen. It has black and white 
feathers, and wrinkled neck skin and at the top of the head a crown of flesh, 
the which when the cock
crows/displays enlarges and becomes large in the way that it covers all of its 
chin/face, and several others have the said red horn like the peacocks. It 
enlarges the breast and at the point of the breast has a set of bristles like 
those of the pig, conjoined of feathers, and it has much whiter and tenderer 
meat than the peahen. And it ages/tenderizes faster than the capon and similar 
birds. If you want to roast in on the spit, one should not leave it after 
killing in winter, with its innards intact, more than four to six days and in 
the summer more than two days. Pluck it dry or with hot water (as one plucks 
also the hen) and when it is plucked and cleaned of its innards prepare the 
breast. Because it ahs a bone in the breast sufficiently high that other birds 
do not. And cut the skin around the said bone and cut carefully the meat from 
this bone, and cut the point of the said bone with a knife that shaves, and 
close the skin. If you want to fill it use one of the stuffings listed in 
chapter 115. Cut and leave the head and the feat, and refresh the meat with 
water, and when it is firmed let it chill and bard it with small pieces of lard, even though it is fat enough. And if it is stuffed you do not need to lard, but put inside it several cloves, and let it cook slowly, this bird cooks much quicker than our peahen. Of the flesh of the breast one can make chunks and balls and all those dishes which one makes with the lean meat of milk fed veal in chapters 43 and 47, thus also those of the hen of India and our peahen, 
although as soon as they are dead they are tender but aren?t as tasty. The said 
cock and hens have the same season as our peahens; however it is true that in 
Rome one uses them all year. Their innards one can prepare the same way as those of the peahen above written.

Per fare pasticcio di Pollancha d?India Cap XXXVII Quinto Libro, Scappi
Piglisi la pollancha giovane morta d?un giorno l?estate, & l?inverna de tre, 
perche tal volatice presto si frolla, & ha la carne assai piu Bianca, che non ha il pavone, spiumisi asciutta, & nettisi de suoi interiori. Taglisi il collo, & si empia di compositione di cervlate gialle con tarufoli, overo pedoni di 
carciofani perlessati tagliati minute, & finoccio dolce fresco, o secco sgranato chuidasi il buco, & faccisi rifare all?acqua, o alle bracie, & taglinisi l?ale, 
& i piedi, & pongasi in cassa, con fette di lardo sotto & sopra, spolverizzate 
della medesima spetieria, che s?adopera al pavone; cuoprasi il pasticcio, & si 
faccia cuocere al forno, & come ? presso a cotto, volendosi servire caldo, 
pongasi dentro per il buco una salsa fatta d?aceto, zuccaro, vino bianco, 
canella, & garofali, overo altro sapore a beneplacito. In questo modo si puon 
acconciare i pavoni nostrali giovani.

To make a pastry of peahen of India (Turkey) chapter 37, 5th book, Scappi.
Take a young turkey, killed for a day in the summer, and in the winter for 
three, because this bird tenderizes quickly and has very white meat, unlike the 
peahen, pluck it dry and clean out the innards. Cut the neck and fill it with a 
stuffing of yellow sausage with truffles or artichoke hearts parboiled and 
chopped small, and fresh sweet fennel or dry fennel ground, close the hole and 
firm the meat with water or on the grill. Cut the head and the feet and put it 
in a case (pastry case) with slices of lardo above and below, powder it with the same spices as one would use for the peahen, cover the pastry, and put it to cook in the oven. When it is nearly cooked, you want to serve it hot, put inside through a hole a sauce made of vinegar, sugar, white wine, cinnamon, cloves or another sauce of your choice. In this way one can also prepare young peacocks or peahens.

La stagione de i Pavoni, & delle Galline d'India Cap XXI, Secondo libro, Romolo
Quando il Pavone, & la Gallina d'India sono vecchie, sar? la carne loro buona 
nel maggior freddo dell'anno. Et i pollastri loro nascendo di Marzo saran buoni 
d'Agosto, & Settembre, & che vogliono esser di quattro mesi almeno, ma le 
femine, coi? pollanche vorranno haver dell'una, & dell'altra cinque ? sei mesi, 
& queste saranno eccellentissime.

The season of the Peahen and of the hen of India, chapter 21, second book, 
Romolo Domenico
When the pea cock and the hen of India are old they are at their best during the most cold portion of the year. And their male chicks born in March are good in august and September, and they should be at least four months old, but the 
female chicks that is "pollanche" should have between five and six months and 
then these are the most excellent.

Come si trincia un gallo d'India Cap XII Vincenzo Cervio [15] (an excerpt)
Il gallo d'India ? uccello domestico, venuto pochi anni sono in Italia. Questo 
uccello ? grande de ossi & di polpa, & ancora di bont? & pretio simile quasi al 
pavone, & per questo vanno ancora trinciati in un medesimo modo.

How one carves a turkey. Chapter 12
The turkey is a domestic bird, which has been in Italy for only a few years. 
This bird has large bones and flesh, full of goodness and purity somewhat like 
the peahen and for this it is carved in a similar way.

References
Romoli, D., La Singolare dottrina di M. Domenico Romoli. 1593, Venezia: Gio. 
Battista Bonfadino.
Scappi, B., Opera : (dell' arte del cucinare). Reprint. First published: Opera 
di M. Bartolomeo Scappi. Venice, 1570. 1981, Bologna: Arnaldo Forni. [20], 436 
leaves [ca. 888 p.], [28] p. of plates.

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 09:14:00 -0500
From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcarrollmann at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] large birds for feasts

Granado (Spanish, 1599) has two recipes for "hen of the Indies". One
is baked in a pie, and the other (for invalids) is stewed with dried
fruits. I think they may be among the recipes he borrowed from
Scappi, which would push the date back to 1570.

Brighid ni Chiarain

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 09:24:30 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks list <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Large birds for feasts

I wonder what the time lag is between a food item's introduction and it's first recorded recipe. Columbus observed turkeys on his 1502 voyage. In 1511 King Ferdinand of Spain ordered every ship returning from the Indies to bring five male and five female turkeys, presumably for breeding stock. There are records of prominent churchmen sending the birds as gifst and keeping private flocks in the 1520s and 30s.

A few years ago the Price Tower in Bartlesville, OK mounted an exhibition of bronzes by Giambologna (1529-1608), and one of the pieces was an amazing turkey. He'd actually made the bird look noble. (His boar was pretty amazing, too). The statue had been commissioned by Cosimo di Medici in 1567, and it was apparently not the first art piece the Medici commissioned of a turkey - they ordered a turkey tapestry in 1545 and a grotto painting earlier than that.

So, you are seeing in correspondence and art the better part of a century of turkeys in Spain and Italy, but the first recipe appeared when? And for how long after their introduction, some time between 1502 and 1522, were they novelty items and a luxury food before there were enough birds for a wider dissemination? How long before cooks got enough experience working with turkeys to figure out the best ways to prepare, season, and serve them?

Just pondering,

Talana

Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 10:37:24 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Large birds for feasts

Culinary historians often point to a lag time between a food's 
appearance or mention
in letters, diaries, household accounts, menus, even artwork, etc. and 
when we start finding recipes in a printed book or a recipe in a 
manuscript. It's not just a matter of the turkey. In this case 
perhaps no instructions were needed. It was just another large bird 
and people ate and enjoyed large birds as a matter of course. What I 
found in my research for my paper on the turkey was that the famous 
carving rhyme of Boke of Keruynge from 1508 might have mentioned 
explicitly ?Dysmembre that heron. Dysplaye that crane. Dysfygure that 
pecocke. Unjoynt that bytture," the "unjoynt that bytture" changes 
later to very detailed instructions for the reader on how "To cut up a 
Turkie or Bustard."

Johnnae

On Mar 4, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Jennifer Carlson wrote:
<<< I wonder what the time lag is between a food item's introduction and 
it's first recorded recipe. snipped So, you are seeing in 
correspondence and art the better part of a century of turkeys in 
Spain and Italy, but the first recipe appeared when? And for how 
long after their introduction, some time between 1502 and 1522, were 
they novelty items and a luxury food before there were enough birds 
for a wider dissemination? How long before cooks got enough 
experience working with turkeys to figure out the best ways to 
prepare, season, and serve them? Just pondering, Talana >>>

Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 16:32:15 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Large birds for feasts

The introduction of turkeys into Europe is generally placed between 1520 and 
1527. Turkeys were being raised in Mexico and Cortez's expedition landed in 
1519 and the conquest was completed by 1527.

Rabelais mentions turkeys in his Gargantua (1534), while Marguerite de 
Angouleme (AKA Marguerite de Valios, Marguerite of Navarre) contracted with 
a farmer in Navarre to raise turkeys for her table. Marguerite died in 
1549, so we know turkeys were being raised before that. Also in 1549, 
Catherine de Medici gave a feast at the Bishopric of Paris for which the 
accounts still exist. Catherine served 70 "Indian chickens" and 7 "Indian 
roosters" costing 20 sols and 30 sols each respectively. Considering that 
from these accounts peacocks and heron cost 40 sols each, pheasant and 
bustard cost 70 cols each, crane cost 80 sols, and swans cost 100 sols, the 
low price and quantity of the turkeys suggest that they were being farmed 
fairly extensively and while they were a luxury, they were not a novelty.

Bear 

Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:05:54 -0600
From: Jennifer Carlson <talana1 at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks list <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys

The artist Giambologna sculpted a bronze turkey for the di Medics during the 1560s.  You can see it here:
http://www.wga.hu/html_m/g/giambolo/1/5turkey.html

Talana 			  		 

Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:44:15 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys

<<< Interesting. But the article is mostly about the rise of raising and 
selling heritage turkeys. I didn't see anything about data supporting 
turkey farming in Europe in the middle to late 1500s.

Stefan >>>

The Aztecs had domesticated turkeys (M. gallopavo gallopavo AKA South 
Mexican Wild Turkey) and it was from this stock that the first turkeys were 
imported into Europe. We don't know how widespread raising turkeys was, so 
the introduction of the turkey into Europe could have occurred from about 
1510 to 1528 (Cortez's first return to Spain). The actual date is likely 
between 1520 and 1527, after the Spanish took over the Aztec empire. The 
key point is the turkey was already being farmed and it was introduced as an 
animal to be farmed.

There is at least one record of a farmer being paid to raise turkeys for a 
noble table. And there is a record of expenses for one on Catherine de 
Medici's feasts where the turkeys were priced much lower than any of the 
large wild birds (I covered this in more detail some time ago, so the 
reference may already be in the Florilegium).

At least one source has stated that the English brought domesticated turkeys 
to the New World before they encountered the Eastern Woodland Turkey (M. 
gallopavo silvestris). I haven't traced that back to a contemporary 
reference yet.

Bear

Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 18:14:38 -0800 (PST)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys

I've been making my way through "Household Accounts and Disbursement Books
of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, 1558-1561, 1584-1586" edited by Simon
Adams. I have not read all of it quite yet, but there is at least one
entry for a payment to a person for a turkey.

I wish these were actually the bills for the kitchen, and although those
records were kept elsewhere in a day book type register, there are many
references in the disbursements to seasonal foods that were delivered, and
also mention of hiring messengers to deliver food items to the court. 
There is record of hiring a foreign cook, and also the payments to the
cooking staff. An interesting bit is a listing of 'rewards' given to the
Queen's household staff which includes the different offices of the
kitchen. I found it useful to know that there was a privy bakehouse and a
great bakehouse in the Queen's household.

I thought to pass this reference on to anyone who might be interested in
investigating this potential Elizabethan era resource.

Katherine B

Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:14:09 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Turkeys

<<< I have remembrance of a reference to turkeys being driven to 
market in England in the late to middle 1500's.  I will attempt to 
track it down.
Daniel >>>

See
Eiche, Sabine. Presenting the Turkey. The Fabulous Story of a 
Flamboyant and Flavourful Bird. Florence, Italy: Centro Di, 2004, 
2006. Fabulous photos of 16th century European artworks featuring the 
turkey.

Smith, Andrew F. The Turkey. An American Story. Urbana: University of 
Illinois Press, 2006. Excellent work on the history of the turkey with 
a chapter subtitled ?How the Turkey Conquered Europe.?

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 01:19:27 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] another turkey picture?

<<< http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/bassano/francesc/index.html

Francesco Bassano, Market scene 1580-85. Lower right. Looks like a turkey.
:)

De >>>

It is.  And the bird directly behind it appears to be a white turkey similar 
to the modern domesticated turkey.  I'd really like to see this painting up 
close.

Bear

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 20:25:07 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Something for the Season

Turkey recipes before 1600 do exist. 
Here are several blog posts on Turkey Polpette from Scappi http://www.vastrepast.net/www.vastrepast.net/Old_Food/Entries/2009/6/24_Turkey_Polpette_from_Scappi.html

Eduardo

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