Title: ovens-msg
Subject: Medieval and camp ovens.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, oven, baking, mass, bake, bread

ovens-msg - 9/24/13

Medieval ovens and SCA camp ovens.

NOTE: See also the files: utensils-msg, bread-msg, breadmaking-msg, brd-mk-sour-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, no-fire-cook-msg, p-kitchens-msg, camp-ovens-msg.

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                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design
Date: 21 Sep 1994 20:39:46 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

All of the brick ovens that I am acquainted with have a single chamber.

Since the goal is to get the bricks hot enough to cook by and since
bricks are a really poor conductor of heat, it seems grossly inefficient
to use a separate fire box and wait for the heat to percolate through
the walls of the fire box. Trying to use the hot air and smoke generated by
the fire might be possible but it would not work the same as a brick oven
such as I have used.

In discussing improvements to the brick oven we have, we have considered
redesigning the inside to make better use of the flames, and cause the
smoke to go up the chimney instead of out of the door.

I believe that a separate firebox would make sense when iron walls are
practical. I would be interested in pointers to plans for period ovens
and indications of when ovens with separate fireboxes came into use.

	Fiacha 

From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design
Date: 21 Sep 1994 17:15:03 -0400

(Neil Perkins(980-9892" <jackalope!neil at zazen.attmail.com>, writes:
>I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in,
>and one for the baking.  Not so?  The design requires quite rudimentary
>brick-laying skills.

I don't know when the idea of a separate firebox and bake area was
invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread might
still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber.

Alisoun Fortescue of Maplehurst
who is known to say that you cannot light a candle in the wind.

From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brick Oven Design
Date: Sat, 24 Sep 1994 21:37:00 -0800

 Al> From: alisounf at aol.com (AlisounF)
 Al> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

 Al> In article <9409211855.AA00503 at jackalope.toontown>,  at mc.lcs.mit.EDU
 Al> (Neil Perkins(980-9892" <jackalope!neil at zazen.attmail.com>, writes:
 
 >I would have assumed that there would be two cavities - one to bake in,
 >and one for the baking.  Not so?  The design requires quite rudimentary
 >brick-laying skills.

 Al> I don't know when the idea of a separate firebox and bake area was
 Al> invented, but even in the 19th. century in rural Massachusetts bread
 Al> might still be baked in a beehive oven with only one chamber.

True.

Near here, we have a reconstructed 19thc Hudson's Bay trading post, Fort
Vancouver. 

Among the things they have rebuilt so far is the bakery. It has two ovens,
both single-chamber, so far as baking goes. (There -is- a chamber under
it, but that's just used to pre-season firewood...)

A fire is built in the upper chamber, raked out, and the bread put in.
Just as has been done for practically ever...

From: haslock at fiacha.zso.dec.com (Nigel Haslock)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast
Date: 21 Sep 1994 00:30:05 GMT
Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation

Greetings from Fiacha,

Stephen Bloch raises some interesting points about trenchers that caused me
to stop and think/speculate for a moment.

Giving every feaster a trencher is a lot of bread. Doing it every day is one
hell of a lot of bread. 

Bread tins are not a medieval artifact as far as I know (but I could have
missed them). Without bread tins, bread comes out of the oven in a slump
shape. You can't make rectangular bread because it will change shape in the 
oven. Thus I would expect round or oval loaves.

Really tall loaves aren't going to work very well. The further the middle is
from the heat, the longer it is going to take to bake. Efficient use of the
oven is going to require vaguely flat bread for trenchers. This means that
really efficient use of the oven should have been to bake pita bread on
steroids. A thick crust would be much more effective at trapping juices and
sauces.

Experience with a brick oven is relevant here. I have turned out breads upto
two inches thick. However, they only worked when the oven was relatively cool.
Trying it with the oven hot resulted in burnt crusts or uncooked middles. Thin
breads can be cooked in the hot oven. The point to remember is that with a 
brick oven there is no thermostat and you cannot use the oven while you are
reheating it. Thus, as the temperature goes down, the cooking time increases.
If you need to cook a lot of something, you want to cook it in a hot oven so
you can cycle lots of items through before reheating. This means that flat
bread for trenchers makes a lot of sense.

	Fiacha

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources
Organization: University of Chicago
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 1994 05:22:34 GMT

Tandoori cooking is, I believe, traditionally done in a clay oven,
and I believe it is similar to the Tanur used in medieval Arabic
cooking. A possibility I have considered but not followed up is to
find out where Indian restaurants get their Tanurs from. If you have
the space, you then bring your tanur with you, bury it part way (I
think), build a fire inside, rake out the coals, put in the bread,
...  .

David/Cariadoc

From: caradoc at enet.net (John Groseclose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Looking for oven sources
Date: 29 Sep 1994 21:02:59 GMT

sward02 at bigcat.missouri.EDU (Shannon R. Ward) wrote:
> In amongst the talk of making period ovens, etc.  did anyone ever list
> sources we can look at if we are interested in making one.  I don't think
> I can survive another Lilies War without hot, fresh bread!
> 
> Tatiana Dieugarde
> Shire of Standing Stones
> Kingdom of Calontir

In the excavations at Pompeii, they dug up a stove/oven/heating device
remarkably similar to the "shepherd's box stove" I've seen at a lot of Boy
Scout camps... It's essentially a longish metal box with a stovepipe at
one end, two doors (one to put wood in, and one above that for baking.

The top surface of the box (behind the top of the "oven" box) is used as a
griddle surface. The one excavated at Pompeii also had a partitioned area
with a spigot, apparently used for heating liquids.

                          ---------
                          !       !
Front View:               !       !
                          !       !
--------------------------------------
!                                    !
!   ------------------------------   !
!   !                            !   !
!   !       Oven door            !   !
!   !                            !   !
!   !                            !   !
!   ------------------------------   !
!                                    !
!   ------------------------------   !
!   !       Firebox door         !   !
!   ------------------------------   !
--------------------------------------

Side View: (stovepipe omitted):

                   Griddle here
----         ----------------------------------------------------------
!  !         !                     !                                  !
!                                  !                                  !
!                                  !                                  !
!                                  !     Baking "oven"                !
!                                  !                                  !
!        Coals shoved back here    !                                  !
!                                  !                                  !
!                                  ! ---------------------------------!
!                                                                     !
!                                  Wood (or charcoal) here            !
!                                                                     !
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Pompeii artifact, the right side of the "oven" area was partitioned
off with a spigot hanging out the side. The entire object had brackets at
the corners, apparently for legs for the stove.

Now, if I could just find the damn book I read about this in... Maybe it
was a National Geographic.
-- 
John D. Groseclose <caradoc at enet.net>

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Ice at Pennsic (How much?  I used none.)
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 01 Sep 95 12:22:06 EDT

glenn at access1.digex.net (D. Glenn Arthur Jr.) writes:
> Right now I'm more interested in period (or at least low-tech,
> DIY) ovens I can build at -- or _easily_ transport to -- Pennsic.
> This has to have been covered in a _Compleat_Anachronist_ or
> something, no?  But whether period/perioid or modern, being able
> to oven-cook at Pennsic can only add to my culinary repertoire.
>       D. Glenn Arthur Jr., glenn at access.digex.com

	Respected friend:
	The premier issue of _Recreating History_ magazine contains an
article describing construction and use of five different outdoor ovens.
(I wrote it.)
	Contact Polsons at sirius.com for info.
	If you get it, do tell me what you did- I _love_ that part!

                                Yours in service to the Society-
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)

From: brettwi at ix.netcom.com(Brett Williams)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: 1 May 1996 17:13:52 GMT

parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA (Diana Parker) writes: 
>Elizabeth Estep <CXYB76A at prodigy.com> wrote:
>>If anyone would like to share any experiences, resources, etc. on
>>period style ovens or bread making, please post them here, or e-mail
to the address below. I'll try and share anything I learn with any
>>other interested parties. 
>
>Oh Yes Please.
>
>Tabitha
>----------------------------------------------
>Diana Parker   		parkerd at mcmaster.ca
>Security Services	CUC - 201	
>McMaster University	(905) 525-9140 (x24282) 

The Regia Anglorum web site has an article on building one's own
kiln-type oven in its copious pages. The address is:

http://www.ftech.net/~regia/

On the other hand, since I somehow surmise from all the reading I've
done on going to Pennsic that the Coopers might frown on folk building
a permanent oven on their land, why not try burying one of those
Romertopf type clay pans (with a lid) with bread in the coals and ashes
of a fire? Supposedly one can make bread with a good crust in one of
those, though I've never tried it. The King Arthur's Flour Baker's
Catalog carries 'em, as does most higher end baked goods/cookery shops.

ciorstan

From: jlee at puc.edu (Thrystan Wickliegh)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: Thu, 02 May 96 05:37:03 GMT
Organization: Pacific Union College

At the West Kingdom Collegium a couple of weeks ago there was a demonstration 
of a bread oven. It was made by taking red clay bricks, about 90 of them if I 
recall correctly, and forming them into an oven shape using normal mud as a 
mortar. You first make a base of bricks layed on their long thin edge, 
unfortunately I don't remember how many were in the base. Then you build up a 
wall around three sides of the base and dome it over towards the top. the 
structure will resemble a cylinder cut in half lengthwise and lain on the cut 
side. An important part of building it was that when you get the walls 
starting to dome over you need to place two bricks perpindicular to the walls 
at the front of the oven, i.e. the open side. These bricks can then have 
weights, extra bricks for instance, placed on them to ballance the wieght of 
the bricks being domed over. Once you get to the point were a brick turned 
sideways will cover the opening at the top then place the last layer of bricks 
perpendicular to the side walls. Note the bricks should be placed so that they 
have their length going the same direction as the wall and their breadth, i.e. 
the next larget dimension, going away from the oven chamber. The idea is to 
get as much thermal mass as possible.

I realize that this may not be very clear, if you would like I could try to 
draw a picture of it and mail it to you, though I am not a very good artist. 
The best way to do it would be to get some bricks and try it at home and then 
tweak it till it works.

To fire the oven remove a brick from the roof at the back of the oven, at the 
collegium we made a sort of chimney out of a couple of extra bricks. And then 
place your wood inside and build your fire. If you built the oven so that the 
door was facing the prevailing direction of wind you will get a nice draw 
through the oven even without a chimney. Once the fire in the oven is going 
you will get some good flames coming out of the chimney due to the excess 
gases burning in the now abundant oxygen. If you build the oven right it 
should be possible to cook over the chimney while firing the oven. After the 
oven has fired for about an hour it should be ready to bake in. Though you 
should probably experiment with it at home. Rake the fire out of the oven and 
cover the hole in the roof. Then slide the bread in the oven and place the 
bricks you saved for the door, you did remember to do this right:), in front 
of the door. The bread should bake in about the same amount of time as in an 
oven at home, though you should check it about half way through and then again 
towards the end. I was told that you get a feel for how long it should take to 
cook. Once it's done pull it out and cut off the bottom layer, since it has 
lots of ash and mud on it, and eat.

I hope this helps.
Thrystan Wickliegh

P.S. I wonder if anyone knows how "period" it would be to cook on the chimney 
of such an oven. I would think that it would be great to fire it up in the 
morning, cook breakfast over the chimney and then when breakfast is done slide 
the bread in for lunch.

From: Gartner Michael <ges95kll at studserv.uni-leipzig.de>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 11:26:35 +0200
Organization: Uni Leipzig

On 30 Apr 1996, Elizabeth Estep wrote:
> I know that a number of people have done period bread baking at Pennsic 
> and other camping events. I haven't, but would like to try it some year. 
> However, I'd also love to pick the minds of those of you who have already 
> done it, and learn from your mistakes, so that I can make my own new ones.
> 
> ELIZABETH ESTEP  CXYB76A at prodigy.com
> ska Angharad ferch Tangwystl

apropo,

I have never baked bread at war, but I have seen something here in 
Germany that is very interesting.  

At this time of the year there are many Market days, most of them being 
medieval in theme.  There is no one organization in charge, rather the 
majority are hosted by individual cities, especially those with very old 
Market privelidges.  For instance, here in Leipzig they just celebrated 
their 500 anniversary of Trade fair privledge, granted by Max.I, and had 
a large Market at the original Marktplatz(Marketplace).  There were many 
handworkers there, including food sellers.  One person had brought with 
him a small stone oven and was baking flat bread and rolls the whole 
day.  Other people would come and use the oven from time to time.  I 
asked him about this and he said that his was the village oven open to 
public use, a very common practice.  In fact since this time I have seen 
many small villages where the old water mills also have community ovens.  

I thought it would be interesting to see at an event, a public oven for 
all to bake their bread fresh daily, Nicht wahr?

Duncan Brock, O.L.
Michael H. Gartner
Universitaet Leipzig, Deutschland

From: jlee at puc.edu (Joe Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: Mon, 06 May 96 16:41:04 GMT
Organization: Pacific Union College

kimiv at ix.netcom.com(Kimberly A. Ingram) wrote:
>I saw one of the conical brick ovens being built in a camp at Pennsic
>once but when i suggested a similar enterprize to my household, several
>people insisted fire brick must be used as opposed to red clay bricks
>or run the risk of exploding bricks and this would be cost prohibitive.
>Is this the case?  
>
>Yours, Aralyn Thorgrimsdottir 
>m.k.a. Kim Ingram-Veillette at kimiv at ix.netcom.com
>
>Hoping to be savoring some of Tabby's breads this Pennsic!

Well the oven I saw was made out of the red clay bricks and it didn't explode. 
While there may be a worry about the bricks exploding if they got too hot, the 
oven I saw still had a couple of places in it where there was slightly damp, 
i.e. still dark, mud between the bricks when we broke it apart the next day. 
And this was after four firings. I also heard someone, I unfortunately do not 
remember who, mention that they were at an event similar to a ren faire where 
there was a large oven built on site. The method used to fire it was that when 
the soot on the ceiling of the oven turned white it was hot enough, then the 
fire was cleaned out and the floor was mopped lightly to remove the ashes and 
hte door was closed. When the outside of the oven became too hot to 
comfortably touch, sometime later as I understood it, the oven was ready for 
baking. At any rate the bricks do not ever become hot enough to explode.

Thrystan Wickliegh

From: Pat McGregor <patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com>
From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: 7 May 1996 11:27:55 GMT
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Tabitha (parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) wrote:
>        I'm the one who insisted that fire brick be used.  Five years
>later I'm _still_ picking brick pieces out of my yard from when the
>tenants tried to line their firepit with building bricks.  Since the
>pieces are up to 5-6 feet away from the fire pit site, (and in some cases
>buried 2-3") - I'm worried about what kind of explosive force could
>develop.  (perhaps from wet regular bricks heating to steam? - I don't
>know why it would explode - merely that I've got empirical evidence that
>they did)

Last year we made a hemispherical, Viking-style unvented brick and mud oven 
in our Pennsic camp.  We considered using fire brick for the entire 
production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the 
recommendation of the brick merchant in town.  We used the oven for a week 
and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or broken 
bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over 
700 degrees for several hours.  
*************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu			Frostahlid, Austrrik
          Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
*************************************************************************

From: priest at vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: 10 May 1996 11:41:22 GMT
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

Tabitha (parkerd at mcmail.cis.McMaster.CA) asked:

>>Last year we made a hemispherical, Viking-style unvented brick and mud 
oven 
>>in our Pennsic camp.  We considered using fire brick for the entire 
>>production but, save for the floor of the oven, went with regular on the 
>>recommendation of the brick merchant in town.  We used the oven for a week 
>>and a half, regularly, and didn't have any problem with exploding or 
broken 
>>bricks--not even on the last day, when we had the thing fired to well over 
>>700 degrees for several hours.  
>
>How many bricks?  

About 50, plus the fire bricks.

>How long did it take to build? 

Most of a day for 2.5 people, counting acquisitions.  We kept all the 
ingredients (except the mud), and it will probably take less than half a day 
in future.  

>Any difficuty getting permissions from the Coopers/Pennsic Building
>Inspection? 

We closely consulted the fire safety advocate, Durr ish Jabal, and Dave 
Cooper about several issues such as location, proper acquisition of mud, and 
keeping the oven up above the ground (to keep the local root system from 
possible ignition).  They were both very cooperative and supportive--but 
then again we have a history of paying close mind to fire and safety 
regulations in our encampment.

>Are you planning on making one again this year?
>Will you rent space? :)

No, I'm planning to have our first child on or about August 1.  Needless to 
say, we will not be at Pennsic this year! ;>  However, a lady from our shire 
wants to set up the oven in the shire encampment (Frosted Hills), so we hope 
the oven will make an appearance this year.
***************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
priest at vassar.edu			Frostahlid, Austrrik
          Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
***************************************************************************

From: IVANOR at delphi.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period Bread Ovens When Camping
Date: 8 May 1996 00:19:08 GMT

Quoting parkerd from a message in rec.org.sca
   >     I'm the one who insisted that fire brick be used.  Five years
   >later I'm _still_ picking brick pieces out of my yard from when the
   >tenants tried to line their firepit with building bricks.  Since the

This sounds as if the bricks were so placed that they could not lose heat on
the side away from the fire, and as if the fire was not a temporary thing
until the oven was hot enough, but was cooked over, and kept burning within
the fire pit. In such a situation the bricks would become much hotter than a
bread oven ever would, much closer to a kiln (which had BETTER be made of
fire bricks). I think this is why that firepit exploded.

Any comment from physics majors?

Carolyn Boselli   ivanor at delphi.com   Host of CF35..SCAdians on Delphi
ivanor at localnet.com                                                   

From: keiths at CyberGate.COM (Keith Smith)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Date: 26 Jun 1996 14:13:17 GMT

Pat McGregor (patriciaX_O_McGregor at ccm.fm.intel.com) wrote:
: Kris Dow wrote:
: > question is: Does anyone have any information/know of good sources for
: > information on building a small (hopefully not overly permanent :) bread
: > oven outdoors? I've just recently discovered the fun of bread-baking,

   Check out Bernard Clayton's new and enlarged edition of his "The
Complete Book of Breads."  His original book (1973) mentioned a temporary 
outdoor oven based on a Sunset magazine design; his latest book shows how 
to build it.
   The Sunset magazine original is found in an article published August
1971.  I also picked up a Sunset softcover book at a library sale
published about 20 years ago that had all kinds of outdoor ovens (most of
them 50-ish looking), but which did include a circular (alas, permanent)
Chinese-style brick oven suitable for indirect cooking of duck and pork.
   Wish I had room to build and outdoor oven.  Good luck.
Cheers, 
kds

From: Vandy Simpson <vsimpson at headwaters.com>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brick bread oven?
Date: 7 Jul 1996 13:54:36 GMT
Organization: Bell Global Solutions

May I also suggest the book "The Forgotten Art of Building and Using a 
Brick Bake Oven" by Richard M.Bacon, published by Yankee, Inc. ISBN 
0-911658-76-9.
 And from personal experience I recommend a stone and turf oven.It 
requires a lot less by way of materials and engineering skills, and 
seems to work quite nicely.I have one in my back yard, and we built 
another up at an annual campsite near North Bay.
 We tried a stone and clay oven, but found we hadn't fired the structure 
hot enough to fuse the clay to survive the depredations of an Ontario 
winter.The turf version doesn't mind rain and snow.

 Vandy Simpson, Hamlet of Wareham, Ontario, Canada

From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Camp Bread, In period
Date: 2 Oct 1996 21:52:46 -0400
Organization: Panix

TJorDan001 <tjordan001 at aol.com> wrote:
>Later in the book (during the description of Edward
>III's Autumn Expedition of 1359) he states "You may like to know that on
>this campaign the great English lords and men of substance took with them
>tents of various sizes, mills for grinding corn, *ovens for baking*,
>forges for shoeing the horses and all other necessities."  He goes on to
>say that these were carried in eight thousand wagons (each drawn by four
>rounceys)

>  Again, this is probably noteworthy for its' novelty, but I'd like to
>know what kind of ovens they had in period that could be loaded on a cart.

Manuscript illustrations and woodcuts show people using "beehive" ovens
(like the clay ovens that some Scadians use at Pennsic) mounted on
two-wheeled carts.

The only citation that I have at hand right now is a fifteenth-century
woodcut on page 24 of _Medieval Life Illustrations_ (Carol Belanger
Grafton, ed.), the latest in the Dover Pictorial Archive Series.

Bon appetit,
D.Peters

From: Pat McGregor <patmcg at innercite.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Camp Bread, In period
Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 12:30:30 -0700
Organization: Lloyd Internetworking

Greetings from siobhan medbh!

On 2 Oct 1996, Ruffina  wrote:
> Manuscript illustrations and woodcuts show people using "beehive" ovens
> (like the clay ovens that some Scadians use at Pennsic) mounted on
> two-wheeled carts.
> 
> The only citation that I have at hand right now is a fifteenth-century
> woodcut on page 24 of _Medieval Life Illustrations_ (Carol Belanger
> Grafton, ed.), the latest in the Dover Pictorial Archive Series.
> 
And, as a point of experience, Edward le Carveur (edwoodguy at aol.com)
and Wulfric of Creghill (not sure of spelling, but it is madbaker at netcom.com)
have several times in the last year taken bricks in their carts to 
events, created ovens on site, baked in them sucessfully, and then removed
bricks (and mud to hold them together) away again in their vehicles.

We were even prepared to use these at 30 year but the ground conditions
were unsuitable, alas.

siobhan
======================================================
Siobhan Medhbh O'Roarke / Pat McGregor/ siobhan at lloyd.com
House Northmark, Mountain's Gate, Cynagua, The West
   http://www.lloyd.com/~patmcg/sca.index.html

From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:52:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens

  Is there anyone out there who has built an oven at something like 
  Pennsic?  My husband and our friends would like to build one in the 
  first week so that we can experiment with some baking.

Years ago, The Sated Tyger Inn used to build a brick and clay oven, and cook
all their food in it.  The last time that I know of when they did so was
Pennsic 14....  One of the owners was Old Marian, who may be reached at
marian at world.std.com

Last year, my friend Mistress Caterina built a small oven (using a very
large inverted flower pot coated with mud, and with a small door cut in it)
quite successfully to bake at the war.  The line for ruttzige cake was long,
at times.  She even taught a class in her encampment.

You might reach her at akatlas at cs.bu.edu

	Tibor

From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 14:59:07 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens

Erin Kenny wrote:
> Is there anyone out there who has built an oven at something like
> Pennsic?  My husband and our friends would like to build one in the
> first week so that we can experiment with some baking.
> 
> Claricia Nyetgale

I have thought about this, but not yet tested the design.  My 
thoughts go as follows.

1. Size: What is the size of the largest item to be cooked?  Round 
   up to the next larger 4" in both the side to side and front to 
   back dimensions.

2. Materials: 
   A. 2 pieces of flagstone whose dimensions are at least 1 foot 
      larger than both of the dimensions determined by step 1
   B. Fire brick -- this is a refractory material used to line 
      boilers and fireplaces.  In order to determine the number to 
      buy, you need, first get the sum of the sides of the 
      rectangle needed by step 1.  Divide that length by 8" and 
      round up to the next integer.  That is the number of bricks 
      per course (1 layer of bricks).  Multiply that number by the 
      height of the oven and divide by 2.  You will also need 
      enough bricks to cover the base of the oven; to get that 
      count, use the outside dimensions of the oven to compute 
      the area (side to side width times front to back depth) 
      divide by 32 and round up to the next integer.
   C. Heavy insulated gloves
   D. Fireplace shovel

3. Construction:
   A. Clear and level and area larger than the larger piece of 
      flagstone.  The outside of the oven should get very hot.  
      Think of fire safety and children when planning your 
      campsite, cooking area and oven.
   B. Lay out one layer of bricks with the 4" by 8" face showing 
      (not on edge) in an ashlar pattern on one of the pieces of 
      flagstone.  (An ashlar pattern is what you usually see on 
      the face of a brickwork wall.  Do not leave any gaps.
   C. Build up the three of the sides in another ashlar pattern to 
      the height needed.  Arrange the pattern so that at the corners, 
      the overlap changes at each course.  This improves stability.  
      The open side is to provide access to the cooking area.  It 
      is possible to create a place to hang a cooking grille by 
      laying some bricks at right angles to the wall.  A more 
      detailed explanation will have to wait until I can test this 
      and draw some diagrams.  This might also increase the interior 
      size and, correspondingly, the brick count.  Aside from the 
      open face, do not leave any gaps.

4. Heating: Load the cooking area with firewood or charcoal.  Light 
   fuel and stack the remaining bricks to close the opening.  In 
   order to allow air to enter, you must omit one brick from the 
   first course.  Finally, cover the top with the second piece of 
   flagstone, but leave an opening to vent the smoke.  Allow enough 
   time for the fire to burn down.

5. Cooking:
   A. While the oven is heating, prepare the food to be cooked
   B. Use the gloves to remove the last wall you built.
   C. Clear the ashes.  The fire pit is a good place for them and 
      could be used for other cooking.
   D. Food into oven
   E. Close up the open face and cap so that there is no airflow.
   F. Cooking time.  That's a tough question -- experiment is my 
      advice.

Some additional thoughts:
   1. making it larger will allow more fuel and therefore longer 
      cooking time
   2. at first, use it items that are not time critical -- bread 
      for example
   3. it could also be used as a barbecue pit if the grille and 
      oven dimensions are compatible
   4. try it some weekend before an event
   5. the materials are heavy
   6. you might be able to close the top with bricks by 
      cantilevering or creating an arch, but it's less stable and 
      beyond the scope of this note.  
   7. you might want to use double thick walls to retain additional 
      heat and lengthen cooking time
   8. structural stability is a concern
   9. meats like pork should not be used until you are sure that 
      it retains enough heat to finish the cooking.
  10. could use common (red clay) brick in place of fire brick
  11. common brick are 2" by 4" by 8"; firebrick are slightly larger: 
      2.5" by 4" by 9" -- this difference might affect the size of 
      the pieces of flagstone
  12. remember that the ability to effectively cook depends on how 
      hot the oven is and how long it stays hot -- using it in 
      winter or a rainstorm will give different results from using 
      it in summer
  13. once you start to use it, you cannot "add" heat except by 
      starting another fire in it

As I said, I've been thinking about this.  I'm going to have to 
follow my own advice and build a test oven.  But not until after 
PENNSIC XXVI.

Please let me know what you think.

I am, 
Vinchenzio Martinus di Mazza, 
In Service to the Dream
- -- 
Martin G. Diehl

From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:15:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens

> Erin Kenny wrote:
> 
> I have thought about this, but not yet tested the design.  My 
> thoughts go as follows.
>
> ... [detailed construction discussion omitted]

Thom Leonard's _The Bread Book_ includes a 17-page chapter on
constructing and using a brick oven.  He says, among other things,
"An oven built of a single thickness of brick will work well, but the
extra mass and strength gained by a simply applied 2-inch layer of
concrete makes all the difference."  Concrete, of course, puts it way
OOP, but a layer of clay on the outside of the bricks should serve the
same purpose, adding heat-retaining mass.  I've wanted to build such a
thing for several years now... in fact, I was considering building a
mobile one, either on a wheelbarrow (as appears in at least one late
medieval woodcut) or on a car trailer.

If you're curious about the book, which also discusses baking bread from
levain (semisolid sourdough starter), grinding your own flour, and even
growing your own wheat, ask your local natural-foods store; it's
published by East-West Health Books, copyright 1990, ISBN 0-936184-09-4.

					mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu

Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:35:07 -0600 (MDT)
From: Roy Wessel <rwessel at ada-solutions.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens

A local Italian restaurant (Laudisio's, Willow Creek Shopping Center,
Boulder, CO 80304) has a portable pizza/bread oven on a flat bed trailer
that they take to wedding receptions, Farmers Market, etc.  It is about five
feet in diameter, two and a half feet tall, with a base of fire brick and a
dome of ordinary brick.  They build a fire inside, and after the oven is
hot, rake out the coals and put bread dough or uncooked pizza inside.  It is
quite Period except for using a van to pull it around.

Robin Vinehall,
__________________________________________________________________
W. Roy Wessel                      | rwessel at abwam.com            |
W. Roy Wessel & Associates         |                              |
3545 Arthur Court, #3              |  Voice: (303) 444-5004       |
Boulder, CO 80304-2031             |                              |

Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:40:20 -0600
From: "Paul Shore" <shore at dcainc.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Smoking Questions

On 18 Aug 97 at 16:57, Philip & Susan Troy wrote:
> Kea ErisDottir wrote:
> > I am a blacksmith and technology researcher whose preferred medium is
> > fire(surprise) and am the perpetrator of the ongoing Iron furnace research
> > at Pennsic.  Recently, I have become very interested in how cooking related
> > fire works.  In the last 3 years, I have built two beehive style ovens at
> > the Pennsic War and have also undertaken building one in the back yard, as
> > a means to study both their use and maintenance.
> > 
> > Anyone who could send/direct me to good resources for recipes and related
> > information(in modern english, please) would be very appreciated.
> 
> Suggest you take a look at "Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book", dated
> 1604. Hilary Spurling, ed., copyright Hilary Spurling, 1986, Viking
> Penguin, Inc., New York ISBN 0-670-81592-6. This has several recipes for
> baked goods which are described in a relative sequence indicating which
> items are put into the [hot] oven first, which ones are then baked at a
> moderate heat, and which ones as the oven becomes cool again. Of course,
> we don't really know that much about how hot the oven needs to get, with
> how big a fire and for how long it is heated. I suppose if you follow a
> bread recipe and tinker with the process until the bread is fully cooked
> but not burned, then you'd have a pretty good idea.

Another good book on the use of beehive ovens for baking is "English Bread and 
Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David, New American Edition, 1995, ISBN 
0-964-36000-4.  (I recently found the soft cover version remaindered for $6, 
Amazon.com has the hard cover version for $17.50 + shipping).  She provides 
redacted recipes, discusses how hot the oven should be, etc.

HL Aeddan ap Trahaearn           | Email: shore at dcainc.com
Shire of Mooneschadowe
Kingdom of Ansteorra

Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:54:15 +0200
From: Janine  De Villiers <JDeVilliers at juta.co.za>
Subject: SC - Re: Smoking Questions

Greetings, all, from Meriel

Fursa Hand-Seinn wrote:
<snip> In the last 3 years, I have built two beehive style ovens at
>the Pennsic War and have also undertaken building one in the backyard, as
>a means to study both their use and maintenance.

There is a fascinating web site for the Regia Anglorum, a living history
society in the UK, which has, amongst other wondrous things, an article
on building an oven. The URL address is:
http://www.ftech.net/~regia/

Meriel of the Marsh
Shire Incipient of Adamastor, Cape Town

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:25:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Carol Thomas <scbooks at neca.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Ovens.

>Has anyone seen pictures of village ovens?

English Bread and Yeast Cookery by Elizabeth David has pictures of ovens at
Pompeii that are similar.  Also, a 15th c. woodcut of an oven that looks
like what you describe.

It also has some clay ovens - does Master Hroar need a new project?

Lady Carllein

Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 23:58:07 +0000
From: Karen at agent.infodata.com (Harris, Karen)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Ovens.

Sarah in An Tir wrote:
> Has anyone seen pictures of village ovens? The way that they have been 
> disscribed to me is about 6-7ft tall and slightly conical. They have an 
> place forthe fire in the lower half and the oven section above. The smoke 
> goes around the oven section and out a chimney. Some frineds of mine and 
> I are thinking about making one.

You may want to check out http://www.ftech.net/~regia/ovens.htm -- 
it's a webpage at Regia Anglorum with information on a large oven 
they had built.

Karen Larsdatter
  Barony of Ponte Alto, Atlantia

Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 09:16:41
From: Sheron Buchele/Curtis Rowland <foxryde at verinet.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Period Ovens.

This fall I participated in a class at a local CSA where we built a wood
fired bread oven.  It was very interesting and the whole time I kept
thinking about the plotting that Mistress Meriel and Master Brendan of
Calontir did about making a bread oven on the Lilies site.  The teacher,
Alan Scott, built Laurel (of Laurel's Kitchen and Bread cookbooks) her
first oven.  

He has a web site where he talks about wood fired ovens.  Alan views bread
ovens as folk art, so the process was very primative and felt very
medieval!   I can't find the address of the web site, but search on "Alan
Scott" and "Ovencrafters", I think that is the name of the group.

If anybody wants to get wild and crazy and build an oven at the Lilies
site, I'd be happy to help!  

Baroness Leonora

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:21:16 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: Unit alert! (was: SC - Long-Period food, bread, etc.)

> Wait a minute? Do I understand that you do *puff pastry* at camping
> events?
>
> I can do it with my eyes closed with a frig, but how in heaven's name do
> you make puff pastry outside, in the summer, with nothing more, I assume,
> than an ice chest????? And how do you bake it without a hot, fast
> electric or gas oven?????
>
> Julleran, mind-boggled over the picture of making puff pastry at Pennsic
> (say that three times fast!)

why, yes i have. you work it at night when it is relatively cool, you
put the slab of marble in the ice chest for the day wrapped in plastic
to keep it dry. the resting period works just as well in the ice chest
as long as you keep the dough dry. as for baking it, i have a mondo
stainless steel bowl about 30" diameter, and a dutch oven. bury the
dutch oven in the coals, put the lid on, heap coals on top to preheat.
dig it out, put in the tin can ring to make a support for a pie tin,
place the pastry tidbit in the pie tin, place on ring, put the oven lid
back on, rebury and cover the area with the stainless steel bowl. it
helps if you practice with the pie tin and an oven thermometer to get a
ballpark on the temp a few times to help out with the timing.
This summer I hope to have a brick beehive oven heated from below with
the floor of the oven being boiler plate, have dogrobbing lord working
on it right now.

margali

and ny favorite breakfast at a camping event is crepes benedict- instead
of on a muffin, wrap scrambled eggs, bacon crumbles in a crepe, top with
hollandaise and more crumbled bacon. yummy.

Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:27:57 -0500
From: margali <margali at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Pucks Glen, off topic

the mennonite community on north carolina has a wonderful hearth in
their main kitchen you shoul see-
a giant hood over about a 12-14 foot wide by 6 foot deep area, along the
back wall is a basic hearth, along the left is a 2 hole kettle rest, and
along the right is a 5' dia beehive baking/roasting oven, i have been
trying to get my  lord to put one in the back yard for years!
next time i have the time, and the wherewithall to visit the
winston-salem area, i want to go back, take pictures and blueprint it. i
know it dates to the early 1700s, but it cant be that different as i
have a photo from el moro in PR that has a similar hearth arrangement of
hood over hearth, but not the kettle rests that dates to the 1500s.

you could make a pole shed with the mennonite hearth at one end, a
regular hearth at the other and half walls along the long sides as sort
of a  freeform outdoor small feast hall for 50, 60 people using timber
cut during clearing the land as a modular start for an enchanted ground
sort of area.

margali

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:06:08 EST
From: Bronwynmgn <Bronwynmgn at aol.com>
Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens

I bookmarked this site a while ago but haven't gotten around to checking it
out yet.  If I recall correctly, the site belongs to one of the more
authenticity minded English living history groups (Regia Anglorum) and is
based on experience with building and using period ovens.

http://www.ftech.net/~regia/

Brangwayna

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:00:53 -0500
From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens

I know of at least two types of period ovens, and (when I get back home)
can probably find pictures for one of them.

1. Islamic. The Tanur (same word from which we get modern Indian
"Tandoori"). Think of a large clay vessel, perhaps partly buried in the
ground. Heat with a fire inside, then replace fire with food.

2. Standard medieval oven. Roughly speaking a clay beehive, possibly with
bricks as the underlying structure. Again, you heat it by making a fire
inside, sweep out the fire, put in the food.  A number of people I know
have made versions of this for SCA purposes--Marion of Edwinstowe, in the
long gone days, ran a medieval cookshop (the Sated Tyger) at Pennsic, using
two such ovens as well as fires. Her only modern equipment consisted of
(concealed) refrigerators.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 14:00:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Bloch <sbloch at adl15.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - camp ovens

Phlip gave directions for building a brick oven.  This is something I've
been fantasizing about for several years.  I still haven't done it, but
here are two books with detailed directions:

Tom Jaine, _Building a Wood-Fired Oven for bread and pizza_, Prospect
Books 1996, ISBN 090732570X

Thom Leonard, _The Bread Book: a natural, whole-grain seed-to-loaf
approach to real bread_, East-West Health Books 1990, ISBN 0-936184-09-4

The latter book, BTW, also discusses how to grind your own flour and
grow your own grain in the back yard.

                                        mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
                                                 Stephen Bloch
                                           sbloch at panther.adelphi.edu

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:03:56 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Bread

If you have the towing capacity, why not build your oven on a trailer?  That
way you don't have to worry about setting it up and tearing it down every
event.  Mobile baking ovens were in use in Europe in the late medieval
period and probably in use earlier.

If you want to see a painting of one, browse the following URL.

http://www.opennet.de/brotmuseum-ulm/english.html

Bear

Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 16:43:47 -0700
From: Librarian <betpulib at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Beehive Oven

Hallo folks! as promised, the pics of the beehive are up and online,
along with a description.

Find them through my home page at:
http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/index.html

or go straight to the oven atricle at
http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/oven.html

Enjoy! These pics, by the way, were taken on a digital camera. I have
more for later addition on regular 35 mm film, which show the end of the
process.

Aoife

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 13:36:27 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Baking temp

vjarmstrong at aristotle.net writes:
<< The practice of starting out with a high temp and then reducing it is a
 modern one I learned from my mother, but I thought it might simulate baking
 in a wood fired oven where the temp would decrease a bit over the cooking
 time. >>

I wonder how your observation that starting a baking project at a higher temp
and lowering it is a modern one?  Especially since you mention in the next
sentence that it simulates a 'wood' fired oven?

What you have described is a "modern' adaptation of a very ancient cooking'
'technique.  When ovens were heated with wood, peat, charcoal, coal or dung to
the correct temperature during the MA they were extremely hot at the beginning
of the baking process and lost their heat as the baking progressed.  Adjusting
the oven temp from high to lower is a perfect example of a 'holdover' practice
of the MA. being preserved and adapted to the kitchens of the Current Middle
Ages. :-).

Ras

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:47:09 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Baking temp

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> What you have described is a "modern' adaptation of a very ancient cooking'
> 'technique.  When ovens were heated with wood, peat, charcoal, coal or dung to
> the correct temperature during the MA they were extremely hot at the beginning
> of the baking process and lost their heat as the baking progressed.  Adjusting
> the oven temp from high to lower is a perfect example of a 'holdover' practice
> of the MA. being preserved and adapted to the kitchens of the Current Middle
> Ages. :-).

I'll go with that. As a bit of additional evidence, take a look at some of the
Elizabethan sources that include baking receipts: Elinor Fettiplace comes to
mind. Almost all of her baking receipts instruct the baker to put the pies in
after the manchets have been drawn, and the biskets after the pies, etc.
Taking all the receipts together it's possible to determine a sort of pecking
order for different baked goods, based on a slowly decreasing oven
temperature. For long-cooking items, like large pies, the oven temperature
would decrease over the sometimes several hours the pie is in the oven, while
a modern baker might well start in at a high temperature to get a good brown
crust and then reduce the temperature for the balance of the cooking.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 1998 10:28:41 -0700
From: "Balldrich BallBarian BoulderBain" <msca at c2i2.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Aoife's Homepgae-OT-OOP

> Where do you get the stones for the oven?  I live in South Florida in the
> USA (the tropics) and we have loose fieldstone.  Also can it be broken down
> for moving?
> 
> Andy

In south Florida use that lime shell stone that is all over the place,
just start your fire low and let the stone heat and dry slowly.  That goes
for almost any stone that is in damp conditions . . . once dry you can
crank up the heat and get a slow hot oven with even heat and no exploding
rocks (from steam).
        Another idea that I have tried here is to find a flagstone construction
outfit and ask for all the loose bits that are not good for making
walkways, sandstone and shale are both good for ovens.  Just pile into a
larger than you think you need oven shape and cover the outside with sod,
dirt, whatever to seal in and keep in the heat.  No need to cement the
stones together so when its time to remove ( after it cools off) it just
knock it down.  Enjoy
        Balldrich

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 09:31:47 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Outdoor Ovens

> Check out the last link on my website
> (http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/index.html), for the Beehive Oven

I certainly will.  I have a trailer body on which I am planning to build a
field oven, creating a more modern version of a field oven I have seen
depicted in a 15th Century painting.  I'm thinking of plastering the
exterior (like a horno) to produce a relatively waterproof oven.  With a
couple cords of aged pecan in the back yard, I should have a fun time.

> This weekend I will be testing the "baking in a huge kettle" theory (you
> know---the modern medieval myth of ancestors laying a board across the
> bottom and then using the kettle as an oven). That's if I can get someone
> to construct a wooden lid for my huge pot. We'll see. I'd appreciate any
> sources of descriptions of this method, should anyone happen to come across
> them. Frankly, I expect it will work just as well as any other method.

Check out Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery.  It has a
photograph and some comments about the Welsh using kettles supported on a
metal stand for baking in between oven days.  The more modern version looks
like a dutch oven on stilts, but I bet you can bake bread in a round bottom
kettle just as easily.  I'll also bet you don't need the board to bake a 2
to 4 pound cottage loaf.

        Bear

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:06:31 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - OVENS...OVENS...OVENS...OVENS...

> It certainly sounds like you will have a good time. Could you by any
> chance direct me to that 15th c. painting?

Actually it is a painted woodcut with a GIF on the opening web page for the
Ulm Bread Museum, at:

http://www.opennet.de/brotmuseum-ulm/english.html

> And the you said...
> Check out Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery.

David's book is currently in print.  ISBN 0964360004.  IIRC, it is $25 list,
available from Amazon.com at $14.98.  I don't think this one has Karen Hess'
commentary.  I have an earlier edition, now out-of-print, which has the Hess
commentary.  This is not connected to Cariadoc's work.

Take a look at the commercial bakery oven in Pompeii, at:
http://www.eliki.com/ancient/civilizations/pompeii/commercial/

This is not the best photograph of it.  David's book has information about
ovens and some other views of the Pompeiian bakery.  And, Pompeii, A.D. 79,
a museum catalog of the Pompeii exhibit has some other information.  Maggie
Black's The Medieval Cookbook has some nice illustrations.

Everything I've seen suggests that Medieval commercial or manor house ovens
were stone or brick and followed either the Roman or beehive designs.
Baking in kettles or cloche (clay baking stone covered by a clay dome) ovens
would be for the small household.

Bear

Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:37:55 -0400
From: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip at bright.net>
Subject: SC - Beehive ovens

I've just gotten access to a copy of "The Best from New Mexico Kitchens",
and in it, there's a very detailed picture with instructions of a
beehive-style oven called an "horno". Would anybody be interested if I were
to scan it and send it? Anybody know of a website which might be willing to
house it?

Phlip
Caer Frig
Barony of the Middle Marches
Middle Kingdom

Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:00:57 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Oven Sites

For anyone looking for more information about ovens, here are a couple of
sites to try.

http://mha-net.org/msb/html/bakeov02.htm
http://mha-net.clever.net/msb/html/bakeoven.htm

Bear

Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 14:06:07 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Journal of Primative Technology

While running a search I came across this interesting journal.  While not
specifically in our area of study, it has articles on Syrian ovens,
fire-laying, and other odd things.  You may wish to take a look.

http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/backissues.htm

Bear

Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:41:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Donna Hrynkiw <donna at kwantlen.bc.ca>
Subject: SC - 13th C image of baker

Greetings from Elizabeth Braidwood,

Just stumbled across a late 13th century manuscript page depicting
a baker at his oven, and another being dragged on a sled with a loaf
tied around his neck.

Corporation of London Records Office Postcards
http://www.lib.uci.edu/largo/clr/clr_imag/clr_cards.html

Page also includes images of a couple Opus Anglicanum seal bags, a charter
of William I (1067), and Statutes of Richard III (late 15th C, which I
remember making into my desktop wallpaper at one point).

E.B.

Date: Thu, 13 May 1999 07:19:45 -0400
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Bread oven

Melanie asked:
>>The oven is also written up (and dated more precisely) very briefly by Hall
>>in Penelope Walton Rogers, _Textile Production at 16-22 Coppergate_. The
>>Archaeology of York, Volume 17, Fascicule 11 (York: York Archaeological
>>Trust and the Council for British Archaeology, 1997).
>
>Couldn't find anything in this, do you recall where abouts at all ?

In the section on stratigraphy at the very beginning, the part by R.A. Hall.
Like I said, it's very brief.

Carolyn Priest-Dorman              =DE=F3ra Sharptooth
capriest  at  cs. vassar. edu         Frostahlid, Austmork
      http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/thora.html

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 12:18:34 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Fwd: Ovens

This was forwarded to me by a dear man, and is reposted here with permission
of the original author.  At Lillies War, someone made and used a beehive
type bread oven, here's the story.

Bonne

From: Potters at onelist.com
To: Potters at onelist.com
Subject: [Potters] Digest Number 13
Date: 13 Jul 1999 10:32:03 -0000

Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 12:10:10 CDT
   From: "Eagle Claw" <badhare at hotmail.com>
Subject: Bread Ovens Essay

Okay, people have asked for this so here it is.  My essay on bread ovens and
Lilies "mud".

The original research that Master Mikhail and I found on bread ovens is that
they were typically single chamber ovens.  Double chamber ovens were used,
but mostly for industrial pursuits rather than for food preparation. With
this in mind, we looked at a lot of pictures from illuminations and from
re-creationist groups that had already worked with ovens previously.  The
general concensus is that the most efficient shape is a round dome with a
small door in the side at the bottom of the dome and a hole in the "back" of
the oven towards the top for the flue.

Since Mikhail wasn't comfortable with relying on his skills as a brick
layer, he constructed a metal "skeleton" for the oven.  This was
transported to Lilies with a load of bricks.  (Talk about not  traveling
light!)  At the site, we cut away the sod where the oven would set.  Patio
bricks were placed for the floor of the oven and then the skeleton was
placed.  A trench was dug in front of the door and across the front of the
oven for embers.

Next, a skin of chicken wire was put on the metal skeleton (another
example of Mikhail's need to over engineer....).  We then laid small patio
type bricks against the outside of the structure, using mud/clay from the
lake shore.  (This particular batch of mud/clay came from the Period
Encampment area.  It had a lot of debris and sand in it, but had a good
amount of tackiness to it).  We mortared the bricks in with the mud/clay,
leaving a hole in the top near the back.  This hole would be plugged with a
brick during the baking phase, but left open during the firing phase.  To
finish the oven, we covered the entirety in mud (except for flue hole and
door). We let it dry for several hours.

Unfortunately, we couldn't let it dry all the way through before firing it
as rain threatened to fall and wash away our efforts.  So we put a small
fire in the oven to try to quicken the drying process.  The fire was
probably too big too soon and the mud/clay mixture cracked a lot.  We filled
in cracks as it fired and though it didn't look pretty, it became quite
functional for thermal mass.  It took about 2 hours to get the oven looking
dry.  We went ahead and pulled out the fire and embers (fire into the
cooking pit nearby and embers into the trench in front of the oven door),
and decided to try baking some bread.  The bread was put in on the floor (we
used some freezer  bread dough that had been thawed) and plugged the flue
and the door (used pieces of limestone for the door).  It took about 20
minutes for the bread to bake through.

The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which would be
perfectly okay for period, but modern sensibilities made our dinner guests a
little concerned about it.  We determined that putting a piece of aluminum
foil down after pulling out the fire was a good way to maintain a clean
baking surface. {note, I recommended to her a brushy damp broom, such as the
one of cornhusks I've seen at Old Salem, NC, for cleaning out the soot. -
Bonne)

Over the course of the week, we found the mud/clay mortar cracking
periodically from the heating and cooling of the oven (we fired it once or
twice every day).  We kept a bucket of mud/clay available nearby to patch it
periodically.  This seemed to work fine.  We did put a tarp over the oven
during rainy weather to reduce the chances of the mud/clay loosening itself
from the bricks.

We determined that it took about an hour to get the oven up to
temperature (about 500 degrees Fahrenheit). Then by the time you pulled out
the fire/embers, loaded in the bread (this oven held about 8 loaves of bread
comfortably), and blocked the door and flue, the oven was about 350 degrees
Fahrenheit.  It took about 20 minutes to bake the bread.  We used the
freezer dough instead of making our own since this was an experiment this
year.  We tried loaves, half loaves and buns.  There didn't seem to be much
variation in timing between the different sizes of dough.  We also had
cinnamon rolls one morning!

Changes for next year include a smaller, multiple ovens.  We're also
planning on making clay ovens to transport to the site, rather than
making a brick form while there.  This will make the technology much more
portable. We're discussing the pros and cons of the double chamber versus
the single chamber ovens.  Also, I will be making my own dough on site to
add to the variety of available bread choices.

The tools that seemed to be the best for the firing and baking were a
long-handled scoopy type "spoon" for scraping out the embers, bbq tongs, and
a pair of heavy gloves (for removing the stones in front of the door when
it's time to take the bread out.

- -Vasilla

Vasilla Anastasiia Krasnaia
Barony of Mag Mor

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:15:05 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fwd: Ovens

> oftraquair at hotmail.com writes:
> << The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which
> would be perfectly okay for period, >>
>
> The bottoms of the ovens would have been cleaned out with a brush used for
> that purpose, most likely. I doubt that soot and embers all over the bread
> would have been any more 'perfectly okay for period' than it would be OK
> for the Current middle ages. What lead you to that conclusion?
>
> Ras

Single chamber ovens are often swabbed just before loading the bread.  It
cleans out a lot of the large particles of ash and moistens the oven to
improve the crust.

Modernly, it is common to use coarse corn meal to keep the dough from
sticking to the peel or the oven.  I suspect coarse meal of barley or millet
was used in period for the same purpose

Bear

Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1999 22:56:08 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Fwd: Ovens

> << Modernly, it is common to use coarse corn meal to keep the dough from
>  sticking to the peel or the oven.  I suspect coarse meal of barley or
>  millet was used in period for the same purpose
>
>  Bear >>
>
> I once used cracked wheat for the same purpose and it worked very well.
>
> Margherita the Weaver

As a guess, any coarse meal can be used.  Wheat would not have been used in
period because of the expense.  Barley was about the cheapest grain readily
available to bakers and would likely have been used in this manner.  Millet
was readily available and while not commonly used in baking, it might have
been used as a cheap meal to dust the oven.

Bear

Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1999 19:08:22 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Fwd: Ovens

><< The bread, of course, had soot and such on the bottom crust, which would
>be perfectly okay for period, >>
>
>The bottoms of the ovens would have been cleaned out with a brush used for
>that purpose, most likely. I doubt that soot and embers all over the bread
>would have been any more 'perfectly okay for period' than it would be OK
>for the Current middle ages. What lead you to that conclusion?
>
>Ras

Well, it was a forwarded post, so I wasn't led to that conclusion!  When
requesting permission to forward, I pointed out to the potter who had done
the experiment that the oven would have been swept, and explained that I'd
seen the single chamber oven at Old Salem, NC scraped with a tool like an
angled bar at the end of a rod then swabbed out with a fairly stiff broom
made of corn husks. She said that one of the others on the project had
attempted a quick swipe with a whisk broom, but the oven was too hot for
that plan to work well!

I hope the oven experiment itself was of interest, but I'm not surprised
discussion of it was distracted by discussing an uninformed cooking
statement!

Is any Cook going to Lillies next year that could meet up with this potter
and work with her?

Bonne

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:02:33 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - What kind of recipes  would you experiment with....

>   I am talking about the ones where you build a fire in the oven and then
> when the oven walls are up to temperature you clean out the fire. Anyway we
> started thinking about some of the recipes which tell you to put a dish in,
> after first the bread baked, then x kind of dish and then y kind of dish.
> (don't have any recipes at hand right now) <clipped>
> 
> So, what would you do if you had one of these to play with?
> 
> Maeve

The temperature of the oven is on a declining curve, so organize your baking
so the recipes needing the highest temperature bake first.  

I would probably experiment with pizza or bread first, because I can do
those in my sleep and they bake best around 400-500F.  Followed by the pies
and tarts, which bake at a lower temperature.  

Standard recipes should work fine, except the times are for constant
temperature ovens and may not work with a declining heat oven.

Bear

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 10:48:34 -0500 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - What kind of recipes  would you experiment with....

 1) Is the oven in question a standard "hearth oven"?  I have experience using 
> these for baking, but what throws me is the statement that the fire is swept 
> out after the walls reach a certain temperature.  I have used hearth ovens 
> in the past, but have never heard of sweeping out the embers.  

>From the statement, the type of oven is similar to the southwestern horno, a
declining heat, thermal mass oven.  The hearth ovens I think you are talking
about are part of a fireplace which provides the heat or have a separate
firebox, which is a fairly new innovation.  Medieval ovens were fired by
building a fire inside the oven, heating the thermal mass, then withdrawing
the fire and baking in the firing chamber with the heat radiating from the
thermal mass.

> 2) How long 
> will this oven maintain a decent temperature?  Does the heat dissipate 
> quickly, or over a period of hours?  Is this similar to a Tandoor?  That's
> what I'm thinking. 

The heat dissipates slowly, primarily into the firing chamber.  The time
this takes depends on the mass of the oven, the temperature the mass
reached, and how well insulated the outside of the oven is.

Tandoors are primarly a verticle opening, continuous heat (constantly fired)
clay oven.  The oven being discussed is almost certainly a horizontal
opening, roughly hemispherical baking chamber with the base of the
hemisphere being the floor of the chamber.   
 
> 3)  How hot does the baker allow the walls to get before killing the flame?  
> This would make a difference, certainly, in the order in which you stacked 
> the oven, as the author of the original post suggests.

According to one baker who took over a communal oven, the soot on the top of
the chamber changes color as the oven is fired, from black through the reds
to white.  I suspect each oven has its heat curves depending on a number of
variables.

Highest temperature baking is done first, followed by medium temperature
baking, followed by the stuff you just want to warm up without using direct
heat.

> As for the tenderness of pastry in an oven which cooks at a low temperature, 
> I would hazard a guess that the pastry would possibly dry out excessively 
> before the crust was browned and cooked through.  Again, this all depends on 
> the heat of the oven, which is an unknown at this point.

According to some people, the declining heat works in favor of low temp
pastries, especially later in the cycle.  There is apparently less of a
tendency to dry out compared to a constant temperature oven.
  
> Breads, also, may not rise enough when cooked at lower temperatures (i.e. not 
> enough "oven spring"), or possibly even too much (not enough heat to kill 
> the yeast before it rises past the point where the gluten can no longer 
> support the crust, causing it to collapse). Rapid changes in temperature can cause 
> unpredictable results in baking (of course, if the change is steady and slow, 
> then there may not be a problem).  Just a few of my thoughts on the matter.  
> I would love to have more information on this oven.
> 
> Balthazar of Blackmoor

The oven floor is commonly swabbed with a wet sponge to help remove the ash.
This makes for a moist oven.

A layer of meal may be scattered on the bottom of the oven to help keep the
bottom of the bread from burning.

Depending on the fuel used and the thermal mass of the oven, the oven
temperature should be between 400-600F.  This is not a problem because the
first temperature drop should be very steep and most breads can stand it.
There are a some French breads which call for a 550F starting oven which is
dropped to 400-450F shortly after the bread is loaded.

After the initial drop, the thermal exchange is a slow, steady decline.
Oven times are usually longer with declining heat ovens, and temperature of
the oven chamber is often more even than that of continuous heat ovens.  The
declining heat oven is more difficult to use, because you have to understand
the heating characteristics of your oven and how it matches the bake goods
you prepare.

I've been trying to find the time and money to build a horno for over a
year.

Bear

Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 01:11:28 -0400
From: "Bethany Public Library" <betpulib at ptdprolog.net>
Subject: Re: SC - What kind of recipes  would you experiment with....

try my oven page at http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/oven.html

So many poeple have visited it that the counter reset! I'm amazed! last time
I looked it was over 14,000, but that was probably a year ago or more. At
any rate, this is a perfectly legit thermal mass oven, and while it would be
more likely that you'd find one looking like a large mound of dirt, this one
with turf insulation happens to be appropriate as well, I know to Ireland
but maybe to other areas as well. The pix and a description of how to use it
are all there.

I read that the Viking village found in York Englnad had evidence that
there may have been small birds roasted in the communal oven, but it's
primary purpose was for bread. Most other early sites where thermal mass
community ovens are found also describe the purpose as solely for  baking
bread. Later in period, however, commercial ovens were used to bake all
sorts of things such a smeat pies, roasts, etc. I'ver ead directions to heat
an oven until you cannot hold your arm in for a count of three, or where a
cube of bread browns at a certain rate. It's a question of personal
judgement and familiarity with your recipes. If you've ever had an oven
fail, you'll know you got to a point where just by popening the door you
knew it wasn't hot enough, or was too hot. The signs are subtle, but once
learned are as reliable as a thermometer.

Aoife

Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 16:01:46 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - What kind of recipes  would you experiment with....

> Have you checked Elizabeth David's book on breads?  I don't know a whole lot 
> of work with bread, but my lord does, and he got quite excited 
> about all of the information in the book about ovens.
> 
> Kiri

Yes.  It has excellent information about ovens, but not about building them.

As for David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery, I would recommend the
edition from the early 70's (1972?) with Karen Hess' annotations over the
current edition.

And the Second Edition of Wood's Sourdoughs of the World from Antiquity has
a nice section on experimenting with an 
Ancient Egyptian bakery.  You want both editions of this book.  The First
Edition has more recipes.

Bear 

From: Etain1263 at aol.com
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 12:04:12 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: [Mid] Beehive oven builders? (fwd)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Here is the url to Aoife Finn's site about her behive oven:
http://members.tripod.com/~AoifeFinn/oven.html

Etain inghean Ruaidhri

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2004 08:05:00 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period baking ovens
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

>I am having a difference of opinion with someone at my work about the arched
>space often shown under built-in wall ovens.  He says he has seen a picture
>showing a fire in that space; I've only ever seen wood stored there, if
>anything is in there at all.  What have you folks come across?
>
>Nancy Kiel

What I have seen suggests that it is wood storage.  The firebox style of
oven is (to my knowledge) a modern period invention which came into use
after iron became readily available.  Fireboxes require the heat be
conducted, which is very wasteful of energy in a totally stone or brick
heat-mass oven.

Bear

Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 07:23:52 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another bread question - bakeries
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> While we're discussing bread... I was talking about baking  in period
> with someone a while ago, and a question arose.
>
> I was under the impression that bakers made all or almost all  bread,  as
> a general rule, from scratch and by their own recipes, and people simply
> purchased it.
>
> The person I was speaking to believes that the individual household
> would prepare their own loaves, and then bring the risen loaves to the
> baker to bake. A communal oven, so to speak, but not a single baker.
>
> Of course, I'm looking mostly at later period, urban situations... and
> she has looked largely at somewhat earlier, more rural settings,
> villages, rather than large cities - would that be the difference? Or is
> one of us mistaken? Or is this just another case of that messy word
> "period" - covering a thousand years and an entire continent (with
> extras,) of course there are differences?
>
> I'm interested in this... Bear? *G* Anyone else?
>
> AEllin

You are actually speaking of several different cultures and at least two
occupations, bakers and oven-keepers.

Bakers prepared dough, baked bread and specialty cakes and would rent oven
space to customers (for baking their dough) during the baker's baking.
Baker's thrived because they offered a better product than most people could
produce.

Ovenkeepers either owned ovens or were licensed to run a communal oven.
They collected fees for baking bread for people who had no oven.  Communal
ovens were (and still are) more common in rural villages, where the village
owns the oven and the ovenkeeper is an employee of the village.  There are
still some ovenkeepers in rural France and Italy (and probably other
places).

Since ovenkeepers were often paid in kind and sold the excess bread they
received, they came into conflict with the bakers.  Over time, most of the
ovenkeepers were subsumed into the baker's guilds.  You can see some of this
in the history of the whitebakers and brownbakers in London.

Large households in England tended to hire a baker at the profit fixed under
the Assize of Bread and the baker was then responsible for purchasing
materials and preparing the household's bread.

Just how things were done depends largely on time and place, economics and
the regulations in effect.

Bear

Date: Sat, 4 Sep 2004 09:54:08 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Another bread question - bakeries
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Brett McNamara:
> Many cultures still do this today.  I don't have sources to hand, but
> I recall the practice of bringing dough to baker happening in such
> diverse locales as Morocco, Italy, and parts of India.  In Italy they
> make distinct patterns on the top of the loaf, kind of a makers mark,
> so they know which one to pick up.
>
> An oven is obviously quite a resource investment.  It takes a lot of
> fuel to get the thing to any kind of thermal mass.  However, once
> there, maintenance is far more economical.  A big, shared one makes
> sense.
>
> We know for sure that grain was brought to a miller throughout period,
> it's not unlikely dough would be brought to baker by the same culture.
>
> Wistan

There are medieval English laws on the books (maybe look in one of
the Assizes) specifying the penalties for short-weight loaves, and
also for a sort of bait-and-switch scam some bakers would pull, in
which a loaf left for baking on the counter would be placed over a
little trapdoor, under which was an accomplice (presumably an
apprentice of some sort) who'd hide under the counter and pull off
handfuls of dough from the underside of the loaf. The baker would
then knead these handfuls together, shape into loaves, bake and sell
them as his own.

Which, I guess, is a roundabout way of saying, yeah, bakers did
sometimes bake loaves the customers brought in for that purpose. C.
Anne Wilson also mentions it briefly (the practice of bakers baking
bread made by others) in "Food and Drink In Britain". Offhand, I
don't know what her source for that information is, but I've seen it
mentioned numerous times.

I think that, as Wistan mentions, the fuel requirements for a
dedicated oven, not to mention the possibility of fire, even in a
small village, and, for all I know, some weird Norman licensing thing
(as with millers), might tend to make having a real baking oven in
one's home, unless your home was a manor house of some kind, unlikely.

And stories of other things, like cassoulet and cholent, being
dropped off at the baker's to be picked up when needed seem to abound
until the early 20th century, which leads me to suspect an oven in
the home was a comparative rarity in the Middle Ages. Which, of
course, does not preclude baking on the hearth, either under a cloche
of some sort, or in a pot, or wrapped in leaves or a cloth, etc.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2004 10:58:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject [Sca-cooks] Re: Another bred question ??? bakeries
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

In English manor houses, the custom grew to hae ovens and kitchens in 
separate buildings from the house. Pennsbury Manor in Pennsylvania, 
built in the English fashion in the 17th century, has a separate 
kitchen building and a "bake and brew" building where large-scale 
baking and brewing took plac.

In Philadelphia, very few homes there were built with ovens, 
archeological surveys have confirmed this. Women or their maidservants 
would take their pies, cakes, and breads and other baked dishes to the 
baker to have them cooked.

Now, the above twoexamples are out of period and out of the continent, 
but the colonists seem to have been following customs long set in 
England.

In medieval Sicily, very few homes had ovens. According to Clifford 
Wright's research, most of the kitchen implements in hosehold accounts 
were ones used for open-hearth cooking. Mr. Wright doesn't mention if 
people brought things to the baker to be baked or if they just bought 
bread. But nuns and lay sisters found a way to support their convents 
in a specialty niche that the general lack of ovens provided with the 
large-scale baking of cookies, cakes, and sweets.

Gianotta

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 09:01:28 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>,	"Randy Asplund"
	<randyaf at provide.net>

>> I have a question for the bakers.
>>
>> At the end of the day of a medieval baker, how hot is his oven?
>>
>> I also want to know how long it might stay that hot, and what
>> temperature it might be by morning.
>>
>> I need to replicate putting a casserole filled with sticks in such an
>> oven and then taking that out in the morning. I am curious about what
>> a reasonable simulation with a modern oven might be? Would it be best
>> to start at a certain temperature and then gradually back it off over
>> the course of several hours to simulate medieval oven cooling?
>>
>> Randy Asplund     (734) 663-0954

Did the baker relight the fire or have an oven that could be fired during
baking to maintain the heat?  I suspect you are thinking of the beehive
style oven that absorbs heat into the mass during firing then radiates it
back into the baking chamber after the fire is cleared.  In such a case, the
internal temperature after firing should be between 400 and 500 degrees F.
This will decline over a number of hours (depending on the mass of the oven
and the length and quality of the firing).

Breads (which require higher temperatures) were baked first, pies and coffins
next, then small cakes and dishes requiring lower heat.  While no source I
have found specifies the details, large quantities of bread (as for the
trenchers of a major household) were baked in advance and may have required
multiple firings.

I'm not sure what you are think about with a casserole of sticks and taking
it out in the morning.  I suspect most baker's fired their ovens before the
baker's mass (around 2 am), then cleared them after they returned and began
baking the loaves that had been prepared the night before.  Again, because
of the fire danger, the firing may have waited until after mass.  As with
today's bakeries, the fresh bread would have been on the shelves  when the
store opened.  The oven would have probably been cleared, cleaned and
prepped for the next morning sometime in the late afternoon.

Forget about trying to simulate a heat mass oven with a modern constant
temperature oven.  Modern ovens are designed to dissipate heat quickly and
you can't get the slow decline of the heat you need to match the temperature
gradient of a medieval oven.  Also, due to the nature of the beast,
temperatures flucuate inside a modern oven in ways that are completely
incompatible to a heat mass oven.  Just set the temperature and use it

Bear

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 08:36:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I think the closest approximation to a mass oven used in medieval  
times, which is widely available
to the ley-public, would be either a wood-fired pizza oven or a "deep  
pit" style oven.  Still, you
are likely to get better results from the wood-fired oven.

Speaking from experience, a wood-fired oven of decent commercial size  
(say a 3.5' radius base), if
the coals are left in at night, can still push out between 200 and 275  
degrees F the next morning.
  I have worked with ovens which, due to business volume, were kept 'at  
temperature' until closing
(11 pm or so), and were still pushing 300 - 310 F at about 8 the next  
morning.

Bear is most likely correct in his belief that medieval ovens would  
have been cleared out after
the final use of the day.  The risk of fire would likely have been too  
great to keep the embers
burning unattended overnight.  Clearing the oven would have caused the  
temperature to drop
drastically over the intervening hours, though i would not be willing  
to hazard a guess as to how
much...

William de Grandfort

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:02:10 -0600
From: MD Smith <editor at costumepress.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

My experience baking in ovens built in the 18th and 19th centuries is
that they are fired once, the coals are raked out, the floor swabbed and
the breads inserted. The fires are not kept burning around the edges as
in a modern pizza oven.

Modern commercial bakers using vintage or reproduction ovens sometimes
keep them firing continually, but this has the unhappy effect of burning
the oven out sooner rather than later, and makes the floor hard to swab
for the proper steam. Hence steam injectors, which seem
counter-intuitive in a mass oven, and are hard on the masonry.

The time it takes to fire an oven to bread baking temperatures varies
widely according to (as Bear mentioned) the size of the oven itself, the
thermal mass around it and the fuel used. Other conditions that affect
how long it takes to fire an oven to bread baking temperature:

What was the prevailing weather the week before firing?

Is the oven outside, built on an outside wall or an interior part of the
fireplace?

If outside, is the dome protected from rain/snow?

Has the masonry been properly maintained?

Is this the first firing of the year?

Is the oven fired regularly (once a week at the very least)?

Are there fires in the fireplace routinely?

MD/Marged

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 12:24:20 -0400
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Interesting.  From your experience, how long do these ovens maintain their
> operational temperature
> once the coals are removed?  And, do these ovens use wood coals, or actual
coal??  I have heard of
> a few ovens which are still coal-fired, in use in the eastern U.S., but I
know that these ovens do
> maintain a coal fire during operation (under the cooking surface, if I  
> am not mistaken).

Trust me, you wouldn't want coal in direct contact with your food- you need
to keep a seperation from it if you use it as a heating source for a  stove.
It imparts a very unpleasant flavor, rather like what coal smells like when
burning.

Europe just didn't have access to coal during most of our period- what they
had was the wrong kind for efficient fuel, for forges or for stoves. That's
why I use charcoal on my forge.

The Chinese did have, and used, the right sort of coal. Not sure if they
used it for cooking, but a wok would have provided a decent barrier between
the coal and the food.

Saint Phlip,
CoD

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 10:51:28 -0600
From: MD Smith <editor at costumepress.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Interesting.  From your experience, how long do these ovens maintain  
> their operational temperature
> once the coals are removed?  And, do these ovens use wood coals, or  
> actual coal??  I have heard of
> a few ovens which are still coal-fired, in use in the eastern U.S.,  
> but I know that these ovens do
> maintain a coal fire during operation (under the cooking surface, if I  
> am not mistaken).

The ovens were fired with wood. Coal would have fouled the surfaces. I
have no experience with coal fired ovens other than the ovens in coal
fired cast-iron stoves. If I never have to mess with a coal stove again,
it will be too soon!

When planning the baking, the head baker (not me) determined whether we
needed to get one or two batches of bread from the firing. If two
batches, the oven was fired somewhat hotter and the first batch watched
carefully and snatched out before it could burn. The second batch took a
little longer to bake, but probably only a few minutes. To my best
memory, we never did the obvious thing and stick an oven thermometer in
there. The head baker went by experience.

The falling temperatures allowed for pies, then cakes. The bread baking
was usually finished by 1 or 2 PM. A load of pies, a load of cakes and a
load of cookies later and it was 5 PM - "quittin' time"!

At the end of a day of baking (usually a Saturday), one of the cooks
made several "Mother Tyson's Tomato and Cheese Pies" and the other
historic interpreters on the site brought beer and a good time was had
by all. So the oven was still hot enough after 8 hours to do a few  
pizzas.

It was not uncommon for us to do a crock of beans - ready to go in after
the pizza came out and left in over night. When I fetched them out the
next morning ( at 15 hours later) the pot was too hot to handle, but the
air temp in the oven was not scorching. The oven mass was still warm, so
I'd do a batch of "laundry" and drape it over the dome. In the winter
I'd stick a bowl of bread dough in the "cool" oven for its first rise,
then take it home to finish.

BTW, for those large batches of bread ( at  50 loaves), the head baker did
the prep work in her kitchen and brought the dough over to the Tyson
House for shaping and the final rise. She lived a block away . . .

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 13:11:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Fwd: Oven temperature
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

A book that I read awhile ago, "Bitter Almonds," the biography of a 
woman who had been raised in a lay convent in Sicily, describes how the 
novice girls would have to prepare the convent's wood-fired ovens for a 
day of baking. The building they were in was a medieval one, but I 
don't know when the ovens dated from.

To determine whether the oven was hot enough for baking bread, the 
girls would scrape a long, dried stalk of fennel along the floor of the 
oven. If it immediately produced sparks, it was hot enough.

Gianotta

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 17:53:10 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

In general, medieval European ovens are closer to New Mexican hornos than
pizza ovens or pit type ovens.  The fire is built on the floor of the oven,
the mass is brought to temperature, then the embers are raked, the floor is
swabbed, coarse meal is scattered on the floor of the oven, the shaped
loaves are loaded and the oven is closed for about an hour to bake the
bread.

There are a couple illustrations which may show constant temperature ovens
with a seperate firebox, but the issue is open to question.

Bear

Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2004 19:33:40 -0700
From: "Cathy Harding" <charding at nwlink.com>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Oven temperature question
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

We are blessed with a bakery with a mass oven for neighbors.  they allow us
to "borrow" it several times a year.  (pictures of one such event can be
seen here  http://www.nwlink.com/~charding/baking.html )

The timing and rough temperatures are to the best of my recollection. The
bakery is no longer allowed to make bread for sale in this oven due to
health regulations.  But they have pizza parties occasionally.  The oven is
usually fired cold. We generally start a fire in the oven the night before
we intend to bake, and keep the fire going for several hours.  Part of the
technique in this is building the fire in the front of the oven and pushing
it back so that the entire mass gets hot. At about 1 am we fuel it up for
the last time and close it down (put the door on it....)

About 8am (that's what we plan but it is often later) Bill goes down and
starts up the fire again, the rest of the house is making dishes, breads,
etc.  Generally about noon - 1 pm we are ready to start baking.  by this
time the oven is hot, the oven thermometer is off the scale, generally about
800 to 900 degrees.

Traditionally, (at least according to an Italian friend who always shows up
for this party) pizzas are baked in an oven with a small fire.  You
certainly get  a really delicous slightly smoky very crisp crust and very
fast, just a few minutes. after about 45 min of pulling pizzas out, The
coals are raked out, the oven swabbed and we move on to veggies, foccacia
bread, stuffed breads, etc.

this year we baked 20 loaves of bread made from spent grain from brewing the
day before (following the Rumpelstiltskin's first you brew, then you bake).
they went in about 5pm,the oven was at about 400 and dropped to 375ish
during the baking.  Next time we are taking more detailed notes, and someone
will be in charge of them (this years notes seem to have disappeared.) other
stuff, more veggies, baked apples, etc. come next and the last thing is
always a flan.  it went in at 8pm the oven was about 220 - 200. at almost
10pm the oven was still at about 190-200.  The next day the temperature was
about 100.

We are planning on building our own.  We have been collecting bricks from
earth quake damaged chimenies for several years. (we live in the Pacific
North West)

One of the best books I have found is the Bread Builders hearth Loaves and
masonry ovens by daniel Wing and Alan Scott.

Maeve
(An Tir, Olympia Washington)

Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2004 14:43:22 -0500
From: "Martin G. Diehl" <mdiehl at nac.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pictures of smallish bread oven construction
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Sharon Gordon wrote:
> I am searching for pictures of construction of an oven that
> that could be used to bake several things for a family or a
> small group of camp-mates.

Do you want the oven to look like a period oven?

I found some pictures ... see below.

> And I also recall hearing about one that people made on
> some sort of platform so it could be moved from camping
> event to camping event.  I'd love to know more about that
> if anyone on the list helped build it or has gotten to use
> it.

I even found pictures that indicate this was done in period.

Masonry is quite brittle.  The cement joints and even the
bricks might not travel well.  I suggest that you plan on
building it in place.

I generally use a portable hearth for dutch oven cooking.

> I've found some info on use of the ovens in the
> florilegium in the bread, ovens, and camp-ovens files.

You might even have seen this note,
"Subject: Re: SC - Building ovens"; Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997
BTW, with maturity (and advice), my name has a 'better'
spelling now.  <g>

After writing that message, I have learned more about arch
and dome structures.  I now feel that building a temporary
or portable oven with an arch would be too unstable.
A corbelled structure might be a better choice.

For excellent illustrations and comparisons, please see,
"Masonry Arches"
http://www.brantacan.co.uk/masonryarches.htm

The last link, "Electric Brick Oven", while seemingly not
to our purpose, is a good indication of the layout and
construction of a rectangular oven.

> Sharon
> gordonse at one.net

The 'net graciously yielded up some images on this topic ...

"The Bread Always Rises in the West"
http://www.whirlwind-design.com/madbaker/demisun.html
This was the last image I found ... and possibly with
the information you need.

A portable oven. From "Medieval Life Illustrations"
http://www.godecookery.com/afeast/kitchens/kit031.html

"Pre 17th Century Potworks"
http://www2002.stoke.gov.uk/museums/pmag/Nof_website1/ 
local_history_static_exhibitions/potworks/pages/pre_17th_century.htm

"Cardiff & the Vale of Glamorgan - Cosmeston"
http://www.red4.co.uk/gallery/cardiff/cosmeston/breadoven.htm
... Not very portable

"The ancient art of making bricks"
http://www.gomanzanillo.com/features/bricks/

"Electric Brick Oven" Hah!
http://mha-net.org/msb/html/bakeov10.htm
http://mha-net.org/msb/html/bakeov11.htm

I am,
Vincenzo Martino Mazza

Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 18:50:24 EST
From: Devra at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: baking in wood-fired ovens
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

    There is a nice article on baking in fireplaces, & wood-fired ovens, & using bake kettles, in the most recent issue of Food History News (xvi, no III)

      Devra

Devra Langsam
www.poisonpenpress.com

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:15:14 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Town ordinances often limited the use of ovens in town, so the baker
provided oven space for a fee.  Bring in your loaf, pie or what have you and
the baker would bake it.  A village without a baker would often have a
communal oven with an ovenkeeper to do the baking.  If a local lord had the
oven privilege, then he would provide an oven and ovenkeeper and collect the
fee for its use.

Those townsfolk with money tended to buy their bread, cakes and pies ready
made (Menagier bought trencher bread from the baker for a wedding dinner).
And if you need a specialty item cut a deal with the baker.  If the baker
prepared raised coffins, I suspect it was a special job.

Noble households also hired bakers (under the same fees and requirements set
by the Lucrum Pistoris, for England at any rate).  Since most of the
cookbooks we reference are probably from noble or royal households, then the
instructions are for the division of labor between the kitchen and the
bakery within the household (a key issue for accounting within the
household).  That might not translate to business for the town baker.

Bear

>  Okay I  agree with you right up to the baker and his pans or traps if you
> prefer. Instead of borrowing pans why not have yonder good wife take her
> mix in a covered bowl to the baker. After all most recipes talk about
> turning over the ingredients to the pastier and asking for the right kind
> of coffin or pastry  for it.  Tends to give the baker a lot of business
> even in a smallish town.
> Da

Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:46:15 -0500
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: coffyns
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Feb 26, 2005, at 12:26 AM, Micheal wrote:
>  Okay I  agree with you right up to the baker and his pans or traps if
> you prefer. Instead of borrowing pans why not have yonder good wife
> take her mix in a covered bowl to the baker. After all most recipes
> talk about turning over the ingredients to the pastier and asking for
> the right kind of coffin or pastry  for it.  Tends to give the baker a
> lot of business even in a smallish town.

I remember reading that in London there were set fees (by law?) for
having one's chicken baked in a crust at the pastler - something like
2p.

Buy a freshly killed and cleaned chicken at the market, and take it to
the pastler who wraps it in dough and bakes it in the bread baker's
oven (giving the baker a cut of the fee).

I'll see if I can dig up the reference tomorrow.

- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 12:13:49 -0500
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Stone/Brick Ovens
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Thu Jul  6  9:56 , Karin Burgess <avrealtor at prodigy.net> sent:
> has anyone on this list built and used an outdoor stone/brick oven?  
> I am toying with the idea of building one in my backyard but wondered 
> about the product produced in one.
>
>  Any thoughts on the subject?
>
>  -Muiriath

I've built a couple, and used even more. All with varying levels of  
success :)

were you trying to do a period oven? or just any outdoor oven?

I have plans to do one in my own backyard as well, and when its time,  
these are the plans I'm going to use:

http://www.sunset.com/sunset/garden/article/0,20633,690891,00.html

putting it on an ergonomically tall platform, of course :)

we dont get to bake at events nearly enough, in my opinion :)

--Anne-Marie

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 18:10:45 -0400
From: "Stephanie Ross" <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ovens
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here is a short blurb about an oven in an excavation in Britain.

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent? 
CONTENT_ITEM_ID=27355&CONTENT_I
TEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=12669&EXPAND=1485

~Aislinn~

Date: Fri, 11 May 2007 07:29:27 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Handcrafted Terra Cotta Oven
To: scabakers at yahoogroups.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's the latest foodie toy.
Handcrafted Terra Cotta Oven
Our authentic European wood-fired oven infuses everything it cooks with
a kiss of smoky goodness, producing tender and flavorful fish, meat,
vegetables, breads?and the most fantastic pizza we?ve tried yet. This
rustic oven becomes a focal point of your garden or terrace and a hub of
activity when entertaining. Fueled by hard- and fruit-woods, heat builds
up in the internal oven chamber and dissipates slowly through the cooler
outer shell. Includes oven, stand, door, oven rack, cover, pizza paddle
and brush. Oven is handmade in Portugal; 33" exterior diam./22" interior
diam.; 25" tall. Total height, 59" with stand. 350 lbs.

$2000 dollars but that includes the white glove service.

http://www.surlatable.com/product/545897.do

Johnna

Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 11:02:29 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] bread recipe in Fadalat al-Jiwan fi Tayyibat
	al-t'aamwa-l-alwan
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I wrote:
>  No, it's Bread that is "cocido en el horno", i.e., cooked in an oven.
>
>  There are other ways to cook bread.

I should expand. In Andalusian cooking there are at least two ovens -
there are two mentioned in both the Anon.Andalus. and in the Fadalat.

One is the Middle Eastern oven, the tannur (cognate with the Indian
tandoor). This is a cylindrical oven that is open at the top. Bread
is slapped on the side and cooked when it falls off. In Judhab, a
tray of bread or sweet pastry or batter-coated bananas is placed in
the bottom of the oven, then a chicken is suspended in the center of
the oven so that the drippings fall into the bread or pastry. When
the chicken is cooked it is eaten with the item on the tray.

The other is the European style oven (in Spanish "horno"cognate with
the Italian "forno"), which is open in the front.

As far as i can tell, in both cases the wood or charcoal is placed in
an opening separate from and underneath the baking chamber.

Of course there are breads cooked in a pan, on a griddle, on a rock,
etc. over a wood or charcoal fire/embers.
--  
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2007 09:21:52 -0400
From: "Anne Murphy" <afmmurphy at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I have my grandmother's books from the late 19th and early 20th
century, when they were just starting to use gas. They're translating
the other way - giving temperatures for those who are perfectly used
to judging by feel.

A hot/quick oven was about 400 - anything from 375-425.

Medium/moderate etc was about 350.

Slow is about 325.

Now, this, of course, is for home ovens attached to wood or coal
stoves, not a professional brick bread oven. But it is what I was
going by when I was doing the Small Cakes a few years ago, and baked
them at 400, rather than the more SCA common 350, because the recipe
called for a quick oven...

AEllin

On 9/11/07, Michael Gunter <countgunthar at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Just for reference, does anyone have the data on a "hot" woodburning
> oven, such as when the coals are first raked out and the roasts are  
> put in as compared to a "soft" or cooler oven? Is 400 about right? What
> temp would constitute a "soft" oven?

> Gunthar

Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 22:42:38 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Manchet
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A heat mass oven is likely to run 700-800 degrees F at the end of the firing
and might even be higher depending on the type of woods burned, the size and
length of the firing and the mass and heat absorbtion of the oven walls.
Once the heat source is removed there should be a rapid drop in temperature
down to high oven temperature around 500-600 degrees F as the oven mass and
oven chamber come into equilibrium.  After the initial drop, the sealed oven
will slowly lose heat.  For a baker, the general order of baking is bread,
covered dishes, then torts and sweets.

Since I don't think many of us have a lot of experience with wood fired
ovens, I would recommend using an oven thermometer to get a feel for the
temperature and the rate of heat loss from an oven.  One of the big
advantages of a heat mass oven is the temperature is fairly uniform anywhere
in the oven chamber, although you have to take care not to scorch the  
bottom of the bread because of its proximity to the hot oven floor.

Continuously fired ovens which use a seperate firebox, gas or electric to
produce continuous heat in the oven max out at around 500 degrees F  unless
specifically designed to create higher temperatures and get too cold for
decent baking around 250 degrees.  They also tend to heat more unevenly. and
develop cold spots in the oven chamber, which may or may not be a problem
depending on how uneven the heating is.

Bear

Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2007 07:50:45 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Spit-Project] Superior Clay
To: Medieval-Open-Fire-Cooking at yahoogroups.com,	Creating period spits <spit-project at lists.ansteorra.org>

In one of my home magazines, I came across this company's ad
and thought people might like to browse the website.

The company offers
Rumford fireplace components, clay chimney pots, herringbone fireplaces 
and masonry bread ovens, as well as a variety of other quality clay 
products.

http://superiorclay.com/

Johnna

Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Helen Schultz <meisterin02 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Paging Devra
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Devra, this sounds like a book you should look into getting for the Poison Pen Press! I heard of it through another list I'm on.
http://www.intabas.com/kikodenzer.html#ovenbook

"Build Your Own Earth Oven, A Low-Cost, Wood-Fired Mud Oven; 
Simple Sourdough Bread; Perfect Loaves"
by Kiko Denzer $15

The author teaches you to make semi-permanent sand and clay ovens...All you 
need is some chunks of concrete for the base, some sand to make your 
form, 21 firebricks, and some clay you can dig up at your local claypit. He does 
one chamber and two chamber ovens, with or without a chimney.

~~ Katarina Helene
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL 
Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net 
Middle Kingdom 

Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:31:53 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Paging Devra
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

She offers it already under the crafts section.
*Build Your Own Earth Oven (2^nd Edition): a low-cost, wood-fired mud 
oven - $14.95
*Kiko Denzer.Examines the philosophy and concepts behind the basic 
dome-shaped mud oven, an ergonomic design found in Africa, Europe, and 
the Americas and still in use today. Detailed diagrams, illustrations, 
and photographs enable anyone to build his/her own oven ? and a full 
chapter on sour-dough bread-making renders the theoretical practical. 
Lively prose and charming anecdotes. Highly recommended by Alan Scott 
and Dan Wing, co-authors of */The Bread Builders: hearth loaves and 
masonry ovens/*. Bibliography, resource listings, appendix. 127 pp, pb. 
Handprint Press

Johnnae

Helen Schultz wrote:
<<< Devra, this sounds like a book you should look into getting for the Poison Pen Press!  I heard of it through another list I'm on.
http://www.intabas.com/kikodenzer.html#ovenbook >>>

Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2008 13:29:12 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Groovy Camp oven
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Susan Fox wrote:
<<< We ought to make one on wheels, like we keep seeing in period woodcuts.
Uhhh, like this.  <http://www.godecookery.com/afeast/kitchens/kit010.html>
Transporting it would be a bear, but possible with a trailer. >>>

True all that. Also depends on exactly how big you make it and what 
you make it from. There are ways to make it much lighter using 
vermiculite or kao-wool fill to insulate it.

<<< I'm building a permanent brick bread oven in the new place actually.
There's this half-finished brick BBQ that would convert pretty easily;
just fill in the hollow inside, pour a slab then start building the 
dome.  Booyah! >>>

Spiffy. I want to do the same at my place but I am starting from 
nothing, you at least have a head start.

I highly recommend getting refractory brick for the firebox, don't 
use common red brick. The refractory is more expensive but will last 
a LOT longer. You would be replacing the common brick in just a few 
years if you fired the oven regularly. Common brick is fine for 
everything else, the outside facing and any other part of the oven.

I also highly recommend this book if you are serious about this:

The Bread Builders: Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens by Daniel Wing 
and Alan Scott
ISBN: 978-1890132057
http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Builders-Hearth-Loaves-Masonry/dp/1890132055/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1214944001&sr=8-1

Dragon

Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 06:16:35 -0600
From: "S CLEMENGER" <sclemenger at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] camp ovens and mass ovens at home
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

We built on-site, "temporary" brick ovens at Uprising this year (Uprising 
being Artemisia's biggest annual event).  I believe that they were modeled, 
somewhat, on the Estrella ovens.  We didn't mud them, but they worked 
decently anyways.  We'll be using them again in the future, and will be 
doing more experiments with them next years.  I'd like to try some meats, 
maybe, and definitely some Shrewsbury cakes and some marchpanes, but what we 
did get in the two days we fired them up (whole wheat bread on one day, and 
a barley bread on the second day, with baked fruit cobblers on the second 
day as well) were pretty tasty.  We'd lost a bit much of the heat on day 2, 
so while the bread came out beautifully, the cobbler cooked but didn't 
brown.  I'm going to override the initial instigator of the idea, and get us 
a probe thermometer for next year.....
Building them was lots of fun.  I got a few pictures, but all you can really 
see of it is this square pile of brick and sand.

--Maire

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:55:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 12th century oven image
To: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com

--- Pat Griffin <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com> schrieb am Fr, 21.11.2008:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hortus_Deliciarum_-_Antichrist.jpg

I found this while doing research on something else. 
Isn't that a beehive oven the poor unfortunate is being
stuffed into? >>>

It looks like one, but I would be careful trusting the Hortus Deliciarum miniatures. All we have are 19th century reproductions, and there is a good deal of interpretation in them. 

Giano

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:29:22 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] 12th century oven image
To: <ldyannedubosc at yahoo.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I think it more resembles a medieval glass blowers furnace than a bee hive 
oven.  The two are similar in shape, but without a full view, it's 
impossible to tell.  Since it is a religious print, I think "cast into the 
furnace" might be more appropriate than "popped into the oven."

Bear
----- Original Message ----- 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Hortus_Deliciarum_-_Antichrist.jpg

I found this while doing research on something else. Isn't that a beehive 
oven the poor unfortunate is being stuffed into?

From: Myles Durga <cedric404 at yahoo.com>
Date: March 13, 2009 2:30:47 PM CDT
To: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
Subject: Mud Oven

Sorry, this took some time to get to.  I re-created an oven at estrella of the same design that the period encampment has been using for years.  I helped build a couple over there and was confident enough to try my own.   Feel free to post this on list if you think it's okay.

I used 12 cinder blocks to hold up the oven.  Placed 2 layers of 6.  I filled the holes of the cinder block with dirt, but did not fill between the cinder blocks.  I then put a piece of plywood on top of the blocks.  It was 1/2 inch thick.  Fire brick came next, 32 of 'em.  After the fire brick which I laid in a rotating 2x2 pattern.  I used 30 clay brick to form a beehive shape.  Rotating every layer to cover the edges between.  Every layer got one of more LESS bricks to form the beehive.  The edges of the lower levels really did hold the higher levels.  I then covered the top with 4 bricks accross. This allowed me to have a flat top for playing objects.  For the front.  I stacked two bricks on sides on each side and placed a piece of sheet metal accross to hold the brick for the front.  The height was approx four bricks stacked.

Once the bricks were in place, I threw lots of mud on it.  I continued to put mud on till I could see no more bricks.  I fired up the oven and as it dried I put more mud over the holes that are created by drying mud.  I continued to do this for 4 days.  With a total of 6 layers of mud.

The making process was fun.  And it was great to use.  I give the project a c+.  Here are the reasons why.

I should have put dirt between the cinder block too.
I should not have used a piece of plywood.  (this actually burned through underneath)  Use more cinder block and you can place the fire brick directly dirt and block.

The temperature was very difficult to control.  This was expected, but I had way too much variation.  I attribute this to cherry wood, which burned VERY hot and fast.  And also, a person who stopped to talk about it mentioned something about thermal mass.  My simple saxon mind interpreted as "Throw more mud on"

I should have made another oven or a fire pit nearbye.  To move burning wood or embers out of the oven to get access to the baking.  Turns out a friend brought a small metal bucket in which I put embers in.  And even used it as a hibachi for grilling an elk steak.

I am recreating this oven at home.  And will find a place to put up pictures and experience using as soon as I have some. 

I am western slope of Colorado, near Artemesia.  About 6000ft above the darn ocean.

Cedric Cenfrithes sunu
Baker Wannabe

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:25:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Myles Durga <cedric404 at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Mud oven - repost, sort of.
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

This is an excerpt of an email to Stefan about my experience with a mud oven at Estrella.  Not knowing the etiquite of the list, I should have posted here also.   Also, I have been reading all the oven stuff in the Florilgeium and have a couple of thoughts.  Anyone have some ideas.

Two things I noticed in the articles on the site that I have read. 

 1.  There was discussion about the small open box type area underneath the oven.  My first thought, and I got this from experience, this is where to put the embers and burning items when you clean out the oven for use.  People have stated that they have seen pics with just for wood storage and also pics of fires.  This would explain both.  But, of course, this is only opinion.
2.  I heard mention of swabbing out the oven after fire and before use.  What is used here?  Never heard this before.

<<< I used 12 cinder blocks to hold up the oven.  Placed 2 layers of 6.  I filled the holes of the cinder block with dirt, but did not fill between the cinder blocks.  I then put a piece of plywood on top of the blocks.  It was 1/2 inch thick.  Fire brick came next, 32 of 'em.  After the fire brick which I laid in a rotating 2x2 pattern.  I used 30 clay brick to form a beehive shape.  

<snip> >>>

Cedric Cenfrithes sunu
Baker Wannabe

Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:43:41 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mud oven - repost, sort of.
To: <cedric404 at yahoo.com>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Dumping hot ash into the space under the oven can be a fire danger and may 
be hazardous to whoever is loading the oven.  The only ovens I've seen that 
have open space underneath are Roman ovens that were set up outdoors where 
using the space to protect the firewood from rain might be an advantage.

A swab is a cloth wrapped around one end of a pole and dipped in water 
(think string mop).  The cloth removes the remaining hot ash that could burn 
the bread and injects a little moisture into the baking chamber.  Once 
swabbed, scatter coarse meal on the floor of the baking chamber to keep the 
bread dough from sticking to the oven and to help reduce soot on the bottom 
of the loaf.

Thermal mass isn't so much about "throw more mud on" (although it may help) 
as it is about making the oven denser to retain more heat from the firing. 
The fact that you burned through the plywood suggests the base may not have 
been thick enough or that the base wasn't mortared (mudded as it were) well 
enough to keep the oxygen from fueling the burn.  IIRC, the U.S. Fire Safety 
Code for stoves and fireplaces calls for a one inch air gap between a metal 
heat shield and any wall within 24 inches of the heat source.  You might 
consider a metal base next time.

Bear

<<< This is an excerpt of an email to Stefan about my experience with a mud 
oven at Estrella.  Not knowing the etiquite of the list, I should have 
posted here also.   Also, I have been reading all the oven stuff in the 
Florilgeium and have a couple of thoughts.  Anyone have some ideas.

Two things I noticed in the articles on the site that I have read.

1.  There was discussion about the small open box type area underneath the 
oven.  My first thought, and I got this from experience, this is where to 
put the embers and burning items when you clean out the oven for use. 
People have stated that they have seen pics with just for wood storage and 
also pics of fires.  This would explain both.  But, of course, this is 
only opinion.
2.  I heard mention of swabbing out the oven after fire and before use. 
What is used here?  Never heard this before. >>>

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 07:30:12 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mud oven - repost, sort of.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

You might try and have your public library get these books in for your inspection
Building a Wood-Fired /Oven/ for /Bread/ and Pizza by Tom Jaine.

The other classic is
/The Bread Builders/: Hearth Loaves and Masonry Ovens by Daniel Wing and 
Alan Scott.

Or check out Elizabeth David's book. All contain sections on how the 
ovens are used.

Johnnae

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:33:54 -0400
From: devra at aol.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] oven-building
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Another book is 'The Forgotten Art of Building and Using a Brick Bake Oven", by Richard M Bacon (ISBN 9780911469257) from Alan Hood Books.

Devra the baker

Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:23:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lisa Mohr <gulesandor at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Mud oven - repost, sort of.
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

As to how much wood it takes to fire up an oven, that strictly depends on the size of your oven and how much mass you're trying to heat.? In the fairly large one Dame Leticia and I built, it took maybe a bushel basket full of assorted sticks and bits over a period of an hour and a half or so, longer if it had been quite a while since the last firing.

Elizabeth David mentions some of the fuels used in English ovens, leading me to believe that perhaps the rampant, invasive and nasty pollen-producing Scotch broom we have growing around here might work.? 

Elisabeth

Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2009 13:55:21 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: scabakers at yahoogroups.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Another bread oven

Baronessa Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia | mka Tina Nevin
(Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK)

 has been posting about medieval food on her blog
for several years now.

She's moved over to
http://thethorngrovetable.blogspot.com/

and is featuring her adventures of "Pizza & Bread Oven Building" in the
backyard.

Johnnae

Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:33:30 +1100
From: Raymond Wickham <insidious565 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [Lochac] floor oven
To: <lochac at lochac.sca.org>, art and sciences sca <as at sca.org>

people may find this useful

Estonian Journal of 
Archaeology
2002 pt 1

Kristiina Korkeakoski-V?is?nen

From cairn to oven: on the use of ethnological documents in
interpreting remains of historical structures; 50?69

Kivivarest ahjuni: etnoloogia andmete kasutamisest ajaloolise
aja ehitusj??nuste t?lgendamisel. Res?mee; 67?69

Abstract. Since
the summer of 1997 the Department of Archaeology at the University of Turku has
investigated a complex of archaeological remains of the late 16th and early
17th centuries related to an Orthodox village
at Papinniemi in Uukuniemi (500 km east of Turku). Beginning in the
summer of 1998, training excavations for students have focused on the floor of
a dwelling at the site. In the northeast corner of this structure was a
collapsed cairn that could be identified as the remains of an oven from the
initial stages of the fieldwork. With reference to morphology, materials and
primary field observations of structural details and ethnological analogies,
this article suggests a possible reconstruction of the feature as a Karelian
oven of the so-called leukauuni or ledge oven type. This example is also
intended to focus on the relationship between archaeology and ethnology and to
review the metho?dological opportunities provided by this relationship.

Date: Fri, 23 Jul 2010 23:59:12 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] On Nattes  VERY LONG

You don't have fine temperature control with a wood fired oven.  You have a 
heated mass of masonry radiating that heat and losing temperature in an 
extended arc.  Too hot, you damage the marzipan.  Too cold, you don't brown 
it.  A hot iron allows you to view the results and adjust the temperature as 
needed.

Your statement makes me wonder what type of oven was being used.  You might 
get scorching of the bottom crust due to proximity to the oven floor, but 
for the most part, a wood fired oven bakes fairly evenly.  Uneven baking 
suggests a badly designed or constructed oven or that the baking chamber was 
opened too often, allowing cold spots to form in the chamber.

Bear

----- Original Message ----- 
<<< So I wanted to be sure I understood this correctly - it is better to make
the marzipan with the 'hot iron' method than in the oven because it is
easier to control the heating because the sentence seems a little awkward?
I read in the Schachtafel der Gesundheyt that oven baked bread could have
uneven finishing - burnt in some places and undone in others.  I imagine
that the temperature variations could wreak havoc with the oil/sugar
content in the marzipan.  Last weekend at a garage sale I found an iron
designed for burning the sugar on creme brulee.  Should be perfect to
experiment with!

Katherine >>>

Date: Mon, 02 Aug 2010 08:57:34 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cuskynoles

On Aug 1, 2010, at 7:26 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
From the recipe:
<<< When ready to bake, take the filled pastries from the tray one by one,
wipe their backs with water, enough to make them sticky, and stick them
all to the inner wall of the tannur, taking care not to let them fall
down. >>>

Are all foods cooked in the tannur cooked this way, stuck to the walls? This would really seem to restrict what you can cook in a tannur. Or is meat, in particular, cooked differently? I seem to remember having some tannur cooked chicken.
=======================

The rationale is that dough-based products stuck to the walls of the tannur will stick to the rather porous limed inner surface (it's basically tile grout, sort of chalky), but not too tenaciously because the dough will shrink at the edges as it cooks and begin to peel itself off the surface of the tannur, especially since the wet dough has an instant jet of steam built up between the hot wall and itself. Often what happens it that the trick to removing the cooked bread or pastry is to know exactly when to go in after it with a long hook: it has puffed up enough to be fully cooked, and also to push itself off the wall; the experienced baker knows when it's expanded as much as it'll go without launching itself off the wall and onto the coals.

As I understand it, meat is usually put on long skewers, placed vertically in the tannur, and leaned against the upper lip of the oven mouth.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 07:54:59 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] tannurs

Adamantius answered my questions about a tannur with:
<<< The rationale is that dough-based products stuck to the walls of the 
tannur will stick to the rather porous limed inner surface (it's basically 
tile grout, sort of chalky), but not too tenaciously >>>

How were medieval/mass ovens typically lined? Different from these 
Indian/Asian ovens?
================

Mass heat ovens will vary from unlined to terracotta to mortar.  It depends 
mostly on available materials.

================
<<< because the dough will shrink at the edges as it cooks and begin to 
peel itself off the surface of the tannur, especially since the wet dough 
has an instant jet of steam built up between the hot wall and itself. 
Often what happens it that the trick to removing the cooked bread or 
pastry is to know exactly when to go in after it with a long hook: it has 
puffed up enough to be fully cooked, and also to push itself off the wall; 
the experienced baker knows when it's expanded as much as it'll go without 
launching itself off the wall and onto the coals. >>>

The entrance to the oven is usually covered over, correct? So you can't 
really see the bread baking. This sounds a bit tricky knowing when to open 
the oven and pull off the bread. Late enough that the bread is baked well 
enough, but not so long that any have fallen off into the coals.

So if there are coals, does this mean a tannur is not a mass oven? Where 
the oven is heated up to temperature, all the coals are raked out and the 
food is then put in and is baked by the retained heat only? I that case 
there wouldn't be any coals to be concerned about the bread falling onto.

Stefan
==================

Tannurs are continuous fire ovens.  They are a covered cylindrical clay pot 
with a heat source in the bottom center with space for baking around the 
heat and up the walls.  They are more efficient buried in a mass to prevent 
heat loss, but they aren't designed to bake by mass heat.  It's a very old 
oven design, found in Mohenjo Daro and Harrapa (approx 2500 - 1500 BCE).  It 
may be quite older.

Unlike European mass heat ovens, where the baking chamber is closed off to 
retain heat, the cover of the tandoor is regularly opened to check on the 
food being cooked and to rotaate, remove and replace.  The tandoor is best 
suited to cooking for small groups while the mass heat oven can be sized to 
cook for a family or an army.

Bear 

Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:05:37 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] tannurs

<<< Think of a tall, tapered cylinder, sort of like the classic shape of an 80's 
nuclear plant. There's an opening at the base, to which is attached a pipe 
that angles up at a 45-degree angle or so for a couple of feet. A fire is 
built in the base, and the base, up to the midway point, is buried. Air is 
blown into the pipe and creates a fierce heat, like a blast furnace, running 
maybe, what, Bear, 900-1400 F?

Adamantius >>>

Modern gas-fired tandoors run about 900 degrees F.  I would expect a 
charcoal-fired tandoor to run 500-1,000 degrees F depending on how the 
exterior bellows is used.  Thinking on it, the design is basically a 
Bessemer furnace without the converter.

Bear 

Date: Wed, 04 Aug 2010 12:04:26 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] tannurs

Found a number of these plus websites by searching under Persia Bread  
archeology ovens
http://www3.uakron.edu/ziyaret/tour.html

Articles
Some fire installations from Abu Salabikh, Iraq (Dedicated to the  
memory of Margaret Munn-Rankin)
Crawford H.    Pal?orient     Year   1981    Volume   7    Issue    
7-2    pp. 105-114

Waines, David. Cereals, Bread and Society. Journal of the Economic and  
Social History of the Orient
Vol xxx, 1987. (in Jstor)

Griddles, Ovens, and Agricultural Origins: An Ethnoarchaeological  
Study of Bread Baking in Highland Ethiopia
Diane Lyons 1 A. Catherine D'Andrea 2
American Anthropologist
Volume 105 Issue 3, Pages 515 - 530
Published Online: 7 Jan 2008
ABSTRACT
An ethnoarchaeological study of highland Ethiopian griddle technology  
is compared to bread-baking technologies in Africa and the Near East.  
There is a functional relationship between the use of ovens and  
griddles and the presence or absence of gluten in bread ingredients.  
Ovens are most appropriate for cereals containing gluten and may be  
implicated in the selection of higher quality gluten in domesticated  
wheats. We conclude, based on evidence for griddle use and the  
performance characteristics of African cereals, that indigenous  
species were exploited in highland Ethiopia before Near Eastern  
cereals were introduced. Griddle-cooking practices that bias the  
preservation of Near Eastern cereals over African ones may explain the  
absence of African cereals in the early archaeobotanical record.  
[Keywords: Ethiopia, ethnoarchaeology, archaeobotany, ovens, griddles]

Archaeobotanical evidence for early Dilmun diet at Saar, Bahrain
MARK NESBITT 1
Arabian Archaeology and Epigraphy
Volume 4 Issue 1, Pages 20 - 47
Published Online: 22 Feb 2007
ABSTRACT
A flotation machine was used to process large quantities of earth at  
the Saar excavation in the 1990 and 1991 seasons. Carbonised seeds and  
charcoal were recovered from a wide range of contexts dating to about  
1900 BC. While overall quantities were low, enough contexts were  
productive to allow quantification. Date stones were the most frequent  
crop remains, with smaller amounts of free-threshing wheat and hulled  
six-row barley. This confirms evidence from other sources (textual,  
dental) for the importance of dates as a staple food in the Early  
Dilmun period. A survey of ethnographic and archaeological evidence  
for date husbandry in Bahrain suggests that the date-palms and cereals  
were grown in irrigated date gardens similar to those found today.

Johnnae

===========
On Aug 4, 2010, at 9:37 AM, Johnnae  wrote:
< Sounds like something out of Biblical Archaeology. Until I get back take a look at Food in the ancient world from A to Z By Andrew Dalby which is up on Google Books. The sections on cooking utensils and baking have a number of references.

Johnna >

On Aug 4, 2010, at 8:41 AM, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:
<<< I vaguely recall reading a lengthy article in one of the Middle  
Eastern archaeological journals on Persian baking which included  
pretty detailed discussions of tannurs, griddles, the griddle-like  
object whose name escapes me but which looks like an inverted wok  
sitting on top of a fire, and the aforementioned box oven. The  
article was basically a study of ancient methods that have survived  
to the present day. It's possible Cariadoc or Johnnae might be able  
to recall the article before I am able to dig up the ubiquitous  
smudgy old photocopy...

Adamantius >>>

Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 06:57:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dan Schneider <schneiderdan at ymail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Interesting concept....

I'm not entirely sure exactly they did things, but mass ovens aren't always cleared out before use; sometimes the fire is just pushed to the back or sides, and the food is put in the middle- traditional Swedish tunnbr?d is still baked that way, and for anything cooked in a container, there's no reason to even clear the oven floor all that carefully. One advantage of keeping the fire going is that you then get different temperatures in different places in the oven, so by moving your dishes around, you can fine-tune the temp the dish is cooked at

Dan

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 20:54:30 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Traveling pizza ovens

<<< I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm wrong as I have only a conceptual 
knowledge of bread ovens. But I would think using clay would be better for 
using as the heat would probably seep from the oven more without the clay. 
Also wouldn't the bricks be hotter on the outside without the clay 
insulation?  Not sure.

I've built kilns, but not bread ovens.

--Mercy >>>

Maria Martinez fired her pots in a fire pit.  I'm sure that it lost more 
heat than a kiln, but it did the job.

The question is not the efficiency, but the purpose.  You can bake bread on 
a hot rock or in a pit lined with hot rocks.  You can't bake much bread, but 
it works for an individual or small group on the move.  Stack ovens aren't 
efficient for large scale baking, but they can be built out of scrap 
material, assembled and disassembled quickly and moved fairly easily.  In 
this kind of baking, you are not concerned with the heat that escapes, but 
the heat that is retained in the brick mass and radiated back into the oven 
chamber.  The clay does act as a seal and an insulator and makes the oven 
more efficient, but makes it harder to disassemble and move.

Bear

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:56:57 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Traveling pizza ovens

You don't need to use clay to hold the bricks together.  The ancient 
Egyptians built stack ovens (where the bricks are merely stacked together to 
produce a heat retaining mass) for small scale baking.  IIRC, there is an 
illustration in David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery (Hess edited 
edition).

Bear

----- Original Message ----- 
There also used to be a lady here who had a bread oven on a trailer that she 
would sometimes bring to events, but I haven't seen her around for awhile.

Ana de Serra build to temporary brick oven at the cooks playdate at the West 
An Tir War several years ago. The site owner let us leave the bricks there, 
so theoretically we could do it again if someone brought a bucket of clay 
:-)

Juana Isabella
West

Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 16:34:20 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Traveling pizza ovens

There's also Dan Wing's "The Bread Builders: Hearth Loaves in Masonry  
Ovens" and Tom Jaine's "Building a Wood-Fired Oven."

Johnna

On Mar 7, 2012, at 3:42 PM, Patricia Dunham wrote:
<<< Thanks Bear... that sent me scurrying to make sure my English Bread  
and was an edition with the Hess notes! whew, yes it is, 8-).
I'm usually not much interested in American historical cookery, but  
Martha Washington was one of my earlier-acquired historical-oriented  
cookery books and I LOVE Hess! Maybe I'll take a look at the other  
books, just to read over her annotations!
Chimene >>>

On Mar 7, 2012, at 8:56 AM, Terry Decker wrote:
<<< You don't need to use clay to hold the bricks together.  The  
ancient Egyptians built stack ovens (where the bricks are merely  
stacked together to produce a heat retaining mass) for small scale  
baking.  IIRC, there is an illustration in David's English Bread  
and Yeast Cookery (Hess edited edition).

Bear >>>

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:18:34 +0000
From: "Groff, Garth (ggg9y)" <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: "atlantia at atlantia.sca.org" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>
Subject: [MR] BBC: Saxon Oven Discovered

Today the BBC has a very interesting piece on the discovery of a Saxon communal oven in Norfolk: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-24211947 .

It will be interesting to see how this over is reconstructed. I suspect it might have been a larger version of this 18th century-style oven from the Jas Townsend & Son videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0foHjPVbP4 . Such ovens are also in use at Colonial Williamsburg.

Lord Mungo Napier, The Archer of Mallard Lodge

<the end>

Mark S. Harris	ovens-msg	Page  of