p-ironware-msg

This document is also available in: text or Word formats.

p-ironware-msg - 10/8/18

Period iron pots and cookware.

************************************************************************

NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors.

Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s).

Thank you,

Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous

Stefan at florilegium.org

************************************************************************

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:07:56 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: <lilinah at earthlink.net>, "Cooks within the SCA"

<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

Cast iron cooking vessels were found on the Pulau Buaya wreck (12-13th

Century), so there are examples of cast iron cookware within period. (Ridho

and Edwards McKinnon, 1997, "The Pulau Buaya Wreck", Himpunan Keramic

Indonesia, p.84. ). What we don't seem to have are any known European

examples of cast iron cookware from within period. Please note the "known,"

dating can be tricky and there is the possibility that worn out cookware was

resmelted. Some of the woodcuts show what appear to be cast iron pieces,

but actual materials and construction can not be accurately discerned.

Archeological evidence suggests that cast iron was first produced in Europe

between 1150 and 1350 at two Swedish furnaces, Lapphyttan and Vinarhyttan.

(PDF on reconstructed Lapphyttan furnace:

http://www.jarnetpalapphyttan.se/English%20version%202011.pdf , Tholander,

Erik & Blomgren, Stig, "Some aspects of the origin of the blast furnace,"

The Journal of the Historical Metallurgy Society, Vol. 20:2, 1986, ORB:Iron

and Steel Production in the Middle Ages:

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/scitech/iron_steel.html ). These

furnaces are similar to the Chinese furnaces, so there is an open question

of technology transfer from China by trade over the Volga/Steppes route to

the Silk Road. It is possible, but there is no evidence for or against,

that cast iron cookware found its way into Europe over this route.

European manufactured cast iron cookware did not exist prior to the 12th

Century based on current evidence. Cast iron was used largely to remove

impurities before being reworked into wrought iron and later for casting

cannon and cannon balls. However, if you can cast a bombard, you can cast a

kettle, so there is no barrier to the possibility of European manufactured

cast iron cookware within period.

The reason why cast iron cookware was not prevalent is cost. The technology

arrived in Europe when the forest were being depleted and the cost of fuel

was on the rise. While coal was being used in England and a few other

places by the end of the 13th Century, it didn't come into major use until

the 16th Century and the coking process which makes coal a superior fuel for

smelting didn't occur until the 17th Century. The increase in cast iron

production for general use appears to be directly proportional to the use of

coal as a fuel and the reduction in smelting costs, which is probably why

cast iron's major use before the 17th Century was martial.

Bear

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:14:00 -0700 (PDT)

From: Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

--- On Mon, 6/13/11, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:

(much snipped)

<<< Cast iron cooking vessels were found

on the Pulau Buaya wreck (12-13th Century), so there are

examples of cast iron cookware within period. (Ridho

and Edwards McKinnon, 1997, "The Pulau Buaya Wreck",

Himpunan Keramic Indonesia, p.84. ). What we don't

seem to have are any known European examples of cast iron

cookware from within period. Please note the "known,"

dating can be tricky and there is the possibility that worn

out cookware was resmelted. Some of the woodcuts show

what appear to be cast iron pieces, but actual materials and

construction can not be accurately discerned. >>>

The above leads me to the idea that the Portugese, who were trading in these waters in period, may well have brought such pots back. (They have obvious advantages for some uses.) Thus, if any cast-iron pots were in use in Europe in the 1500s, they'd probably include ones that were, and were shaped like, Indonesian ones.

...Anybody know what Indonesian ones were shaped like?

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:35:45 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

According to Michael Flecker, an expert on these wrecks, the most common

cast iron cookware found in wrecks are woks and cauldrons. Rather than

being of Indonesian origin, the cast and wrought iron found in these wrecks

is of Chinese origin. The Chinese had the raw materials and technology to

produce high quality iron that the other nations in Asia did not.

The importation of cast iron via Portugal is an interesting idea, but like

most ideas about cast iron cookware in Europe, there is no evidence for or

against. In any event, such a trade would not have occurred before 1503 and

the return of the first spice fleet from India. The trade is more likely

after 1513 when the first Portuguese caravelle made port in Canton. This

leaves roughly a 400 year gap between the introduction of cast iron

manufacturing in Europe and the beginnings of the Portuguese oriental trade.

I suspect that a trade in cast iron utensils did not occur because there

were far more compact and valuable trade goods to hand.

One thought that I haven't chased down is wafer irons. The most logical

cookware that is easily made of cast iron and likely to survive is the wafer

or waffle iron. It might be interesting to find and examine some period

irons.

Bear

Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:24:36 -0700 (PDT)

From: Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

--- On Tue, 6/14/11, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:

<<< The importation of cast iron via Portugal is an interesting

idea, but like most ideas about cast iron cookware in

Europe, there is no evidence for or against. In any

event, such a trade would not have occurred before 1503 and

the return of the first spice fleet from India. The

trade is more likely after 1513 when the first Portuguese

caravelle made port in Canton. This leaves roughly a

400 year gap between the introduction of cast iron

manufacturing in Europe and the beginnings of the Portuguese

oriental trade. I suspect that a trade in cast iron utensils

did not occur because there were far more compact and

valuable trade goods to hand.

Bear >>>

Chinese cauldrons seem like the most likely import, then; and I did specify 1500s, so I had the time right as well. As for compactness and value, two important factors: cauldrons that, unlike brass, bronze and copper, don't make acid foods taste revolting have a high value; two, cauldrons make wonderful containers to ship other things in. So Portugal probably had some cast iron cauldrons, in the homes of the extremely screamingly wealthy (Kings and merchant-princes), that came originally from China, before 1600. Doesn't do the rest of us trying to do cooking at events in period pots any good, but it's interesting.

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 08:32:32 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

<<< Chinese cauldrons seem like the most likely import, then; and I did

specify 1500s, so I had the time right as well. As for compactness and

value, two important factors: cauldrons that, unlike brass, bronze and

copper, don't make acid foods taste revolting have a high value; two,

cauldrons make wonderful containers to ship other things in. So Portugal

probably had some cast iron cauldrons, in the homes of the extremely

screamingly wealthy (Kings and merchant-princes), that came originally

from China, before 1600. Doesn't do the rest of us trying to do cooking at

events in period pots any good, but it's interesting.

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict >>>

Ceramic cookware was common and that handles the problem of acidic foods.

While cast iron cookware may or may not have been imported from China,

importing the idea is less expensive, even with the cost of fuel in Europe.

England and France were expanding iron production in the 16th Century and

England and the Dutch were major players in the Lisbon spice market (at

least until 1594). Examples of cast iron cookware from the 17th Century are

still around and the cookware became common in the 18th and later Centuries.

There is an interesting parallel with porcelain, which was definitely

imported from China by the Portuguese. European manufacture didn't start

until 1575 and wasn't on par with the Chinese until 1708. If the Portuguese

were importing cast iron pots, I would expect to find a few examples still

with us. While the lack of pre-17th Century cast iron cookware is not

definitive, it is suggestive of both lack of import and lack of manufacture.

Bear

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:26:17 -0700

From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>

To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

On the reactivity of brass and bronze cauldrons....

My discussions with the nice boys at Hampton Court, who use cast bronze

cauldrons all the time is that the food does NOT turn out tasting nasty as

long as you don't let it sit. Apparently the magics of thermodynamics means

that as long as the food is heating inside the pot, the energy required for

the chemical reaction is used up.

If you remember, a fair number of recipes specify that you are to cook the

dish, then transfer to a clean plate. According to the Hampton Court fellas,

this serves to keep that unfortunate taste thing from happening.

Neat, huh? :)

Certainly if the archeological record is to be considered, the majority of

cookware was cast bronze (cast by bell makers, perhaps?), fabricated tinned

vessels and ceramics. I have used all three in re-enactment settings to good

results :).

--Anne-Marie

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:10:43 -0700 (PDT)

From: wheezul at canby.com

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

I recently went on a journey of pots and pans and spent some time looking

at German 16th century inventories to get an idea of how a house might be

outfited for culinary purposes. I just want to say up front that my

examination so far has just been scratching at the surface, but I would

like to do more follow up. I have a love of kitchen gadgets!

I'd agree with Anne-Marie - the inventories confirm that most implements

were brass, bronze and ceramic, with a great deal of pewter ware for

service. However, iron kettles and pans do pop up with some frequency.

However, the inventories so far have not revealed if they are forged,

riveted, or of cast iron.

And then there was an interesting reference I think in the book below

which has a line drawing of a cast iron kettle or pot dating from the late

medieval period. I wish I had kept or could find my notes - I seem to

recall that the pot was in a museum in Scotland.

Irons in the fire : a history of cooking equipment /

http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/12453278

I also scanned these books for information:

English bronze cooking vessels and their founders, 1350-1830 /

http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/53459205

Les objets de la vie domestique : ustensiles en fer de la cuisine et du

foyer des origines au XIXe siecle /

http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/299756011

Has anyone worked on an annotated bibliography of cooking equipment?

Katherine

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:04:19 -0500

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>

To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

Actually, a museum in Scotland might be one of the best places to look for a

period cast iron kettle. IIRC, there was some serious immigration between

Sweden and Scotland (in both directions) during the religious turmoil of the

16th Century.

Bear

<<< And then there was an interesting reference I think in the book below

which has a line drawing of a cast iron kettle or pot dating from the late

medieval period. I wish I had kept or could find my notes - I seem to

recall that the pot was in a museum in Scotland.

Katherine >>>

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:30:18 -0400

From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron

cookware

I have several books on kitchen equipment. Inc. Irons in the Fire.

There's Yarwood, a shire album or two, let's see what else...

I have several of Peter Brears' pottery volumes; several on silverware, etc. grates, spit irons, etc.

(has anyone checked Brears' books for cast iron references?)

Stuart Press has two volumes.

Cookery Techniques and Equipment 1580-1660 Stuart Peachey

Volume 1: Fuel and cooking methods and equipment including ovens, roasting, boiling, grilling etc. ?7

Volume 2: Food preparation methods and equipment including grinding, sorting, drying, cutting, colouring etc.

Prospect Books also has books that might be of interest. However, the books are at home and I am on the road.

Bibliography? YES

I did a readers guide several years back on equipment. It would have to be redone.

Have you checked Dame Katja's paper?

http://www.katjaorlova.com/MedievalKitchenEquipment.htm

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:36:55 -0700 (PDT)

From: H Westerlund-Davis <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>

To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Subject: [Sca-cooks] history of cast iron cookware

A while ago we had this discussion before. I am white smith when I am not in the kitchen cooking or in the studio getting tangled in fiber.

I have been following and corresponding with a group in Ireland called, Umha

Aois, for sometime who have been exploring and recreating Bronze Age casting and smelting techniques. It is amazing what they have done and recreated. Check out this video http://youtu.be/Ut3pXPyMze4

A lot of pots, if not ceramic, were bronze or pewter. Two ores that were and are easy to cast and use. Bronze is copper and tin or copper and zinc. Pewter, at least until recently, was tin and lead. It is why pewter from a certain time is dangerous. Iron production was still in its infancy during the Medieval Europe.

Ironically, it takes a hotter heat to smelt for bronze then iron. But, copper

and tin are easier to find then good solid iron ore. If you want my sources I

can post them.

To answer the question about cast iron cookware. That is game on semantics. Now, I am only speaking of Midieval Europe, primarily Northern Europe, and not Asia.

The smelting techniques and iron deposits in China were more refined then in

Europe during our time period. As of right now the only archeological hard

evidence we have of "iron" pots are riveted. There are some fine examples in the British Muesum in London and Birka, Sweden. What "cast iron" items that have been found are actually "pig iron." Pig iron is created after the iron smelting process when the finalized smelted ore is then sand casted into ingots. They apparently, look like piglets suckling a mamma pig. Thus the "pig iron" description. Another group that we follow.. check out Hammered out

Bits...http://warehamforgeblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/medieval-cast-iron.html

I am looking forward to the day to meet Darrell and show him my bellows.

The Dutch ovens with the little feet we see in many camps is actually an 18th

century product brought to the U.S by Dutch pioneers. It was easy to carry and compact and became a popular cooking items on the Chuckwagons.

http://www.socaldos.org/

By the 18th century cast iron production had become industrialized and much more refined. Dutch Ovens now are a cast item.

Some books: They are nerdy scholarly kind but they are good.

Lars Christian Norback, International Union of Prehistoric and Protohistoric

Sciences

Prehistoric and medieval direct iron smelting in Scandinavia and Europe: aspects of technology and society : proceedings of the Sandbjerg conference, 16th to 20th September 1999

David S. Niel, Angela Wardel, and Jonathan Hunn, Excavation of the Iron Age,

Rome and Medieval Settlement at Gorhambury, St. Albans.

A cool website from the University of Toronto.

http://www.the-orb.net/encyclop/culture/scitech/iron_steel.html

Aelina