Title: utensils-msg
Subject: utensils and cookware
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, utensils, pots, plates, trenchers, pots

utensils-msg – 9/2/12

Period cooking gear. Utensils, trenchers, cast iron pots, wafer irons, salamanders.

NOTE: See also these files: p-tableware-msg, feastgear-msg, trenchers-msg, iron-pot-care-msg, lea-bottles-msg, forks-msg, spoons-msg, horn-utn-care-msg, ovens-msg, spits-msg, wood-utn-care-msg, mortar-pestle-msg, nefs-msg.

KEYWORDS: pots cast-iron pottery clay grills trivets gratings wafer irons.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with
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Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ddfr at quads.uchicago.edu (david director friedman)
Date: 22 Oct 91 03:47:28 GMT
Organization: University of Chicago

Everyone knows that the fork was introduced at the end of our period.
In fact, the earliest known picture of people eating with forks is
about 12th or 13th century (I can check--it is shown in a V&A
pamphlet on cutlery that I have). There are two Anglo-Saxon forks in
the British museum, and the Cleveland Museum of Art has a Byzantine
fork that is quite early (10th century? I don't remember). The fork
does not seem to become a standard utensil until c. 1600, but it
exists much earlier.

Everyone knows that coffee has always been an important element in
Islamic social life. In fact coffee does not spread out of its
original home, probably Abyssinia, until about the middle of the
fifteenth century; Cariadoc (c. 1100) has never heard of it.

William de Corbie asks about the Swedish prejudice against eating
horse meat. I believe the same prejudice shows up in the Norse Sagas.
If I remember correctly, there is passage in one of them where
someone insults someone else by accusing him of eating mare's meat.
Does anyone remember where?

Cariadoc

From: tip at lead.aichem.arizona.edu (Tom Perigrin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: iron pots
Date: 13 May 1994 20:36:18 GMT
Organization: Department of Chemistry

locksley at indirect.com (Joe Bethancourt) wrote:
> ALBAN at delphi.COM wrote:
>> [synopsis]  bought a used pot, unknown past, how to clean, safety?
> 
> So what's the problem? We cook in iron pots and pans around here all the 
> time. You scour it with steel wool, oil it with olive oil, and use the 
> silly thing. Just keep it oiled and don't let it rust.

errr, yes, but...   there can be a few problems... it could have been used
as a solder pot, or coated with stove blacking to look nice.  Some stove
blackings are made of black lead.

When I get a new pot or whatever, I test it for lead using a lead test 
strip.   You can buy these at various ceramic supply places.   You get the
strip wet, and place it on the object... after a while a color change
indicates the presence of lead.

If there is no lead, I strip paints and blacking with paint stripper, followed
by a bath with Muriatic acid.  The acid eats a lot of paints and iron oxide
but attacks cast iron very slowly.   I then test it for lead again, just
to make sure nothing had been sealed below the surface.  Then I season,
etc.

Thomas Ignatius Perigrinus

From: charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.EDU.AU (charles nevile)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Request:medieval feast
Date: 27 Sep 1994 06:12:25 GMT
Organization: Royal Melbourne Institute of Technology, Melbourne, Australia.

[....]

Plates were certainly around - it is correct that trenchers were given
either to servants, or more commonly to 'the poor'. We use them quite
frequently, and we just use a heavy loaf, round and about a handspan or
more across, and thick enough to slice donwe the middle (more or less).

They work remarkably well, but people tend to eat them as they go, so
that they are both too full to enjoy the later and nicest parts of the
feast, and in any case have nothing left to put it on...

have fun

charles
ragnar hraldsson, new varangian guard, vlachernai garrison

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 03:28:10 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote:
: Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period?  I've
: tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...

I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three 
longish legs.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: corun at access1.digex.net (Corun MacAnndra)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 06:36:36 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

Heather Rose Jones <hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
>Thomas S. Arnold (tarnold at hamp.hampshire.edu) wrote:
>
>: Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period?  I've
>: tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...
>
>I believe one solution was to use a trivet -- an iron ring with three 
>longish legs.

One year at Pennsic, as I was on an early morning walkabout taking some
photos of the various camps, I camp upon the Septentrians, and my friend,
Lady Tamarra, was making scones on an iron contraption that I thought was
rather unique. Not having the photograph with me, let me see if I can
conjure the image in my mind's eye for you. It was the basic three long 
legs, bound at the top by a ring, and hanging from chains was a flat iron
disk suspended at a comfortable level above the fire. The scones, btw,
were delicious.

Septentria is known (at least to me personally) for their period cooking
accoutrements. One year they built a daub and wattle (if that's the right
terminology for mud and straw) oven. They baked breads and even a turkey 
at Pennsic. If I remember aright, the oven was built up of firebrick,
and a large wok was inverted over the top of it. The whole was then covered
with mud and straw and left to harden.

Corun
===============================================================================
   Corun MacAnndra   |  "Have Mr. Labreay mount the 50 cals, and tell him
 Dark Horde by birth |   to watch out for icebergs and take no prisoners."
   Moritu by choice  |         An anonymous Coast Guard Captain in NY Harbour

From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 14:05:48 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Thomas the Tent-Peg of Bergental, amidst a fair quantity of
jokery, asked a real question that no one else has taken up,
so I thought I'd give it a try.

>Does anybody know how they cooked over an open fire in-Period?  I've
>tried cooking without an iron grate, but find it annoying...

This isn't an area in which I've done a whole lot of research,
so this answer is rather rough-and-ready.

It rather depends on who you mean by "they".  If you mean people
preparing food for the middle and upper classes, there's little
evidence I've ever seen that they did.  Pilgrims ate their
hot meals at way stations (inns, etc.).  Other travellors, one
presumes, did much the same.  There is some evidence that some
hunting parties would have elaborate meals at midday, but none
whatsoever I have seen (I haven't gone digging for it, you
understand -- but I have had an active eye out for some years,
and have seen nothing amid the other stuff I've found) that 
they were prepared over open fires (as opposed to prepared in 
the kitchen, and brought out and maybe reheated (or maybe not) 
under very controlled circumstances.

Armies certainly ate in the field.  But armies travelled with
huge trains of wagons that carried their food (and other gear);
the sensible solution, if you have those, is a portable kitchen.
My impression is that hot food preparation for armies was 
semicentralized; if that is true, it suggests that they brought
lots of stuff with them, and what they were doing cannot 
reasonably be called "cooking over an open fire".

That being said, there are a number of "cook over the kitchen
fire" techniques that can be adapted to a more rustic setting.
One is a good solid tripod (or good solid spit) from which
hangs chains with hooks at multiple levels, and a long-handled
instrument (usually iron) for catching the bail of a pot and
transferring it from one hook to another, to bring it closer
to and further from the pot.  Another is the use of a trivet
(iron stool, with a reasonable sized flat top, not solid --
in fact, mostly open) with long enough legs to keep the flat
surface out of the coals and flame.  Use it as you would a
stove-top burner, to set pots and pans on.  Adapt the heating
level by increasing/decreasing the amount of coals underneath.
(This is essentially a refinement of the pot-with-legs
approach.)

In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks,
etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used
to working with.

I have such a trivet, made by Brock the Smith (Magic Badger
Iron Works).  He also sells tripods (and spits), and some of 
the relevant implements, and would doubtless make others to
order.  I've used the tripod through several wars.  I'm not
as handy with fine temperature control of fires as I might
be, so I admit to finding a gas stove simpler, but it works
fine, except that it really only takes one good-sized pot
at a time.  Three or four of them would make a reasonable
start at a decent kitchen for real meals; one works okay for
one-pot meals.

One word of advice: if you want a spit to roast meat on, you
want more than just a piece of iron to go through the meat and
across to supports.  You want it to have a system of little
knife-like stickers around one end, to hold the meat in place.
Otherwise, you will turn the spit inside the meat, while the
same (heaviest) side remains stubbornly toward the flame,
giving you a roast that is burned on one side and raw on the
other.

-- Angharad/Terry

From: andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca (Andrew Draskoy)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 5 Jan 1995 21:30:35 GMT
Organization: Memorial University of Newfoundland

I missed the original question, but I did research this once, and
tried out some of the results.  A warning, though - I don't have
my references handy.  This will give you something to look for,
though.  I had a friend who's a potter investigate this as well,
and she custom-made some clay "pot-with-legs" after a 12th century
German design.  I used these at Pennsic one year and was greatly
pleased by them.  To cook, you put the pot directly over the coals
once the flames have died down.  The heat seems to stay concentrated
near the coals, and the pot can be lifted by hand using the two
"rings" of clay set into the rim.  The pot can also be lifted out
of the fire and set on the ground nearby, and will retain the heat
on the bottom long enough to do more cooking with nice gentle, even,
heat.  Some things become quite trivial to cook this way.  My first
attempt was a period Spinach recipe.  With added instructions for some
of the the cooking implements, it became:

Clean spinach and remove stems.  Heat water to boiling in pot over coals,
boil the spinach leaves for a few minutes.  Remove pot from coals and
drain the water, pressing the spinach with a wooden spoon to help drain it.
Remove and chop up the boiled spinach.  By then the water has evaporated
from the pot.  Put some olive oil in the pot and let it heat.  Add spinach
and some ground nutmeg, and sautee, using the wooden spoon as a spatula,
for a minute or two.

Ten minutes to cook, only one pot, and not much fuss except for the
initial cleaning and de-stemming of the spinach.

: In either case, you want cooking implements (spoons, forks,
: etc.) with _far_ longer handles than you are probably used
: to working with.

Watch out of heat transmission through the handles of metal implements
of all sorts.  Wooden-ended handles are a good thing.

Miklos Sandorfia
andrew at bransle.ucs.mun.ca

From: Suze.Hammond at f56.n105.z1.fidonet.org (Suze Hammond)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 1995 02:37:00 -0800

On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and
re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is
why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same
principle. Ask your local smith!)

... Moreach

From: greg at bronze.lcs.mit.edu (Greg Rose)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period (Cooking) Pot Use
Date: 9 Jan 1995 18:00:11 -0500
Organization: Guest of MIT AI and LCS labs

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Eyrny responds to Moreach:
>>On the subject of metal handles: some period utensils had split and
>>re-woven handles. For some reason, this keeps the handles cool. (This is
>>why those old-timey wood stoves have the spring-like handles. Same
>>principle. Ask your local smith!)
>
>But they do get hot.  It may take longer but it happens.

Well, sure they get hot if you leave them on the heat.  So do wooden
ones.

The trick with any implement over _any_ heat source, is not to leave
it sitting exposed to the heat.  Use it.  Set it aside.  Use it.
Set it aside again.  Few handles heat intollerably while being used,
say, to stir something, faster than the hand and arm do on their
own.

But yes, the best metal implement handles are not solid -- and are
long enough to keep both the handle and the hand well out of the 
fire.

-- Angharad

From: millsbn at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca (Bruce Mills)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cooking for fifty
Date: 19 Apr 1995 15:18:05 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Teach Mr T <teachmrt at aol.com> wrote:
]>Feeding the masses makes for happy masses.
]>
]>Actually, we'll have a fire pit, plus big pots and all the usual
]>accoutrements.
]>
]>Liam O'Donnabhan

Something that I have devised that I have found handy: Make a frame of 
angle iron, drilled at the corners so you can bolt it together (and take 
it apart), sized to fit grills from ovens.  The grills actually stand up 
to the heat of a fire pretty well, although you could probably make a 
heavy duty grill out of welded rod if you wanted.  The one I have devised 
will fit three oven grills; you can cook stuff right on the grill, or it 
will hold reasonably sized pots and pans.  What I am looking for now is a 
flat iron griddle, about the size of one of the grills, that will fit 
right into the frame, and fry on that, instead of having to use pans (I 
find the eggs don't stay on the grill very well).  Steam trays would be 
nice, too.
Akimoya(-dono)

From: gheston at nyx.cs.du.edu (Gary Heston)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cooking for fifty
Date: 23 Apr 1995 20:10:33 -0600

Diana Parker <parkerd at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca> wrote:
>I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod.
>I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to
>use it for.  So far I've cooked a whole ham.  It worked great, and the 
>ham turned out fine.  

What size cauldron are you looking at? I've found one of about
2 gallon size at an auction for $10. Bean/wash pots are also
common for about the same price/size (these have straight sides
instead of the indentation at the top). 

>What's next???

I suppose you could attach a grate to the legs, and cook
on that.

Gary

From: jtn at cse.uconn.EDU (J. Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Cooking for fifty
Date: 23 Apr 1995 16:37:08 -0400

Greetings, all, Angharad ver' Rhuawn here.

Tabitha asks,
> I'd just like another set of ideas for using my forged iron tripod.
> I can't afford the $300-600 for a cauldron, and I'm not sure what else to
> use it for.  So far I've cooked a whole ham.  It worked great, and the 
> ham turned out fine.  
> 
> What's next???

Any pot or dutch oven with a bail (that is, a hoop, usually wire or
iron, to hold it by, like pails have) can be hung from a tripod.  I
have a number of these that I picked up cheap (in the $5 to $15 range),
mostly at flea markets or Good Wills or the like; some are cast iron,
some aluminum.  I don't use that many of them, because I also have a 
trivet, roughly stool-high, that I use as a camp stove, but they 
certainly work.  Get a length of chain that will hang from the tripod 
to not much above fire height, and some S-hooks.  Put the S-hooks into 
the chain at different heights; you can now suspend your pot high up 
to stay warm, slightly lower to simmer, or quite low to boil.

-- Angharad/Terry

From: STDDLY at TINY_TIM.SHSU.EDU (7/11/95)
To: Mark Harris

>         Reply to:   Cauldrons
> 
> What did you cook in your cauldron? How big of a cauldron was
> it? Was it made of iron or something else? Did you season it
> first?
> 
> You mention that it's like a giant round bottomed skillet. 
> Does this mean you can brown meat in it first, then add
> the other ingredients? Or did you simply throw everything
> in and cook as a stew or soup?
> 
>    Stefan li Rous

Greetings once more! Ya, they are just like a _big_ cast iron 
skillet. Clean them thoroughly, season them well with cooking oil. 
Yes you can brown meat in them, or just toss it all in and hope for 
the best. It's always best to cook everything in the same order that 
you would at home i.e. meat, onions, potatoes, celery, right down to 
mushrooms last. This is for a stew, of course. Rule of thumb: 
Hardest/longest to cook...first in. My cauldrons are about 15-20 
each, cast iron, and _heavy_. For feasts I use hi-pressure burners to 
bring the large amounts of water/food to a quick boil...then turn 
them way down to simmer. On spices...for most spices, use handsful. 
Of course, be careful with them, taste often, enjoy. After the meal, 
clean well, season well, and store in a well ventilated, dry space. 
Happy cooking!! 

A. Kief av Kiersted (sometimes cook) L. Cockerham, Texan

P.S. Do NOT "nest" your cauldrons to transport...they will crack.

From: WILLIAM MICHALSKI <wjmichalski at beta.delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: cast iron repair?
Date: 30 Aug 1995 12:45:27 GMT

ook at u.washington.EDU ('Riff' Beth Marie Mc Curdy) wrote:
>       My household been looking for a big cauldron for some time, and I 
>finally found one.  Beautifully shaped, cast-iron, and easily two feet 
>across the mouth... and some *idiot* had drilled a pair of holes in the 
>bottom so as to use it as a planter.
>
>        In addition to knocking an easy $200 of the value of item, these 
>holes render the cauldron fairly useless for boiling water, bubbling 
>stews, and doing other cauldron things.

I don't know about patching, but I do have pricing info from a place 
called "Iron Craft", out of Ossipee, NH.

A new "sugar kettle" of 24" diameter is about $750 plus tax, shipping, 
etcetera.  It has 24 gallon capacity, and weighs just over 100 lbs.
They also offer ones in other sizes, ranging from 1.5 quart to 100 gal.

To get a catalog, write:   Iron Craft
                           PO Box 369
                           Ossipee, NH  03864

or call 800-527-2079 (In NH 539-4114)

Mikhail

From: woofie at capital.NET (Susan Evans)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Trenchers
Date: 10 Dec 1995 22:48:02 -0500

>I've been thinking about doing this at the next event we go to.  Is 
>there anyone upon this bridge who has actually done this, or who can 
>refer me to some reliable sources?  What kind of bread?  (Ie.  white, 
>wheat, etc.)  What dimensions are period/preferable?  Does it have to
>stale a bit before use?  Should I make a bread "bowl" for soup, or
>would it be more period to use a wooden bowl for hot liquids?
>Should my lord and I share the bread trencher?
>
>I'll be grateful for any advice.  I do regularly bake my own bread,
>so I don't need help with the basics.
>
>Robin Carroll-Mann ** rcmann at delphi.com
>SCA: Brighid ni Chiarain, Settmour Swamp, East

A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of
the old Early English Text Society publications.  It may be available on
inter-library loan.  Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint.  The
bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the
good stuff and the peasants get coarse.  We've used trenchers locally for
stews.  Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the
loaf.  The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers -
sort of a place-mat effect, I think.  I strongly recommend the book as it
even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table,
etc.  It's way too long to write out here.  Yes, you can share a trencher
with your lord, BTW.  If you can't get an inter-library copy, you can get a
copy of the Falconwood catalog from me.  
Shoshonnah jehanne ferch Emrys, OL

From: jtn at newsserver.uconn.edu (Terry Nutter)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Trenchers
Date: 11 Dec 1995 06:46:44 GMT
Organization: The University of Connecticut

Greetings, all, from Angharad ver' Rhuawn.

Mistress Shoshonnah Jehanne ferch Emrys wrote:
: A good source of this information is "A Boke of Nurture" which is part of
: the old Early English Text Society publications.  It may be available on
: inter-library loan.  Also available from Falconwood Press as a reprint.  The
: bread quality varies depending upon the status of the diner - nobles get the
: good stuff and the peasants get coarse.  

I'm a little confused.  From my reading of Russell's Boke of Nurture (which
I assume is the one you mean?  in Furnivall's volume called _Early English
Meals and Manners_?), the only distinction among kinds of bread is that
the lord of the hall gets today's baking, others who are not servants get
one day old, servants get three day old, and trenchers are made of four day
old.  There is no suggestion that the original quality varies -- and no
mention at all of feeding peasants.  By peasants, did you mean servants?
And by coarse, did you mean, less fresh?  Or have you found something I
have not?

:     We've used trenchers locally for
: stews.  Obviously you want a bread with a decent crust and some body to the
: loaf.  

But Russell describes squaring the trenchers, and slicing them vertically,
eliminating the crust.  Are you inferring a strong crust from the fact
of good body, or from something else?

:        The high table had a trencher seated upon several other trenchers -
: sort of a place-mat effect, I think.  I strongly recommend the book as it

What I see, is a description of two separate things.  First, there is a
layering of the table linens -- to provide a showy presentation surface.
(In fact, the poem specifies, at one point, that a top layer is to be
pleated elaborately to provide such a surface for the Sewer, whose job
is to arrange dishes.)  Second, the high table's bread, including the
sliced and restacked trenchers, start out elaborately wrapped in linen 
in front of the lord's seat -- but as soon as service starts, they are 
moved away, and the lord winds up only with his own trencher.  At least, 
this is how I read the passage from line 208 to 268.  Have I missed a 
reference elsewhere?

:                                       I strongly recommend the book as it
: even gives the proper ceremony for cutting up the bread, setting the table,
: etc.  It's way too long to write out here.  

No kidding.  Yes, it's outstanding -- though after a while, I get frustrated
at the things it doesn't bother to mention, as it takes them for granted
(including, for instance, when the pottage gets into bowls, and what sort;
exactly how the kitchen serves out, and what the Sewer does with the stuff
once he gets it; and so on).  And it's worth remembering that all this is
just one man's notion of how it should be done....

: Yes, you can share a trencher with your lord, BTW.  

This makes sense, but can you specify a reference for it?

-- Angharad/Terry

From: "L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 10 May 1996 21:38:26 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

To quote those in the know about metalurgy (quoting ME):

kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote:
>David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
>: Lady Aoife Finn wrote:
>
>: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top 
>: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open 
>: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens. 
>
>: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots
>: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The
>: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted
>: together.
>
>: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they
>: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised
>: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory
>: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would
>: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and
>: if iron was still expensive ....  .
>
>       I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not 
>invented until after 1700.  All the cast cannon I've seen from before that
>were brass.  However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period.
>They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores
>than the West.
>
>       All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered)
>peices.  Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are 
>frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together.  These, of
>course, are early/middle period.
>
>       Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive
>Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer.
>
>               Avenel Kellough
And, I reply:

The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery 
(English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an 
illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given 
we shall never know. At any rate, there is a large pot in the picture  
hanging from a chain  attached to the overhead beam (caption: the price 
of poverty.......), with a spit and drip-pan underneath, in the section 
entitled The Medieval Peasant's Kitchen. Included are illustrations of 
various cooking instruments including a boiler (riveted) and a legged fry 
pan (either raised or cast, it is unclear). It is possible the large pot 
I referred to was also raised.

A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version 
of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace 
(spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and 
weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry 
it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* 
bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out 
to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."

Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric 
Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of 
artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a 
very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why 
not the pot?

Gentlemen, will that do?
Aoife

From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 10 May 1996 19:27:32 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version 
>of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace 
>(spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and 
>weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry 
>it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* 
>bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out 
>to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."
>
>If the crane is cast, why >not the pot?
>Gentlemen, will that do?
>Aoife

Good Aoife; I really doubt the crane was cast iron;  I have never seen a 
cast iron crane and since I am a smith I do look!  Are you sure the authors
know the difference between wrought iron and cast, (especially after long
exposure to the fire/water/ashes?.  I have checked a couple of references
and none contain a cast iron crane while all refer to "wrought iron" cranes.

Perhaps the Reader's Digest book has a typo.  Does anyone have knowledge
of "cast iron" cranes?

wilelm the smith who supports later period cast iron pots but *not* cast
iron cranes.

From: ddfr at best.com (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 11 May 1996 03:39:19 GMT

"L. HERR-GELATT and J.R. GELATT" <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> wrote:
> The first volume off the bookshelf proved to be Farmhouse Cookery 
> (English), Reader's Digest association, London, copyright 1980, with an 
> illustration that appears to be a wood-block, but source not being given 
> we shall never know.

Could easily be post period. And any way, as you make clear, we don't know
if the pot illustrated was cast iron.

> A few pages over, an Elizabethan kitchen is shown, with a smaller version 
> of the very same pot now hanging by ratcheded chain in a large fireplace 
> (spit and drip pan still in place, but now operated by a pulley and 
> weight system rather than a small child). Side illustrations show (sorry 
> it's secondary scholarship) "Chimney crane. A crane was a *cast iron* 
> bracket--fixed to the wall beside the fireplace--that could be swung out 
> to support the pot. Designs were often highly ornamental."

And secondary scholarship by someone we know nothing about. I don't know
the book, but the title doesn't suggest anything particularly scholarly.
 
> Next tome off the shelf: Old Cook Books,An Illustrated History, Eric 
> Quayle, Studio Vista Books, London, copyright 1978. we see a piece of 
> artwork by Pieter van der Borcht, showing a 16th century kitchen with a 
> very clearly arranged pot and chimnet crane. If the crane is cast, why 
> not the pot?

But how can you tell from the picture that the chimney crane is cast and
not forged? So far the only evidence for that is an assertion by an
unknown secondary source. And besides, casting a pot is a whole lot harder
than casting a chimney crane.

For what it is worth, Molly Harrison in _The Kitchen in History_ describes
chimney cranes as being wrought iron. She describes utensils as being made
of "iron, copper or brass" but doesn't say (so far as I have spotted so
far) whether they were cast.

> Gentlemen, will that do?
> Aoife

No, but it's a start.

David/Cariadoc
-- 
ddfr at best.com

From: kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 13 May 1996 16:10:28 GMT
Organization: San Diego State University Computing Services

        I believe I accidently sent the information I meant to post 
directly to his Grace Cariadoc, rather than here, so I will try again.

        I did some looking up this weekend, and I was flat wrong on 
casting iron.  According to the _Encyclopaedia Brittanica_, the Chinese
were casting iron by the 6th century BCE, and iron casting technology 
appears in Europe by the 12th century CE.  However, it remained a marginal
technology until the 17th.  Early Blast furnaces were used to produce
pigs of iron that would then be wrought.  The technology to produce malleable
cast iron, however did not appear until the 18th century, which is probably
what I was thinking about.

        According to _The Complete Encyclopedia of Arms and Armor_, most
cannon were wrought iron until the 15th century, when cast bronze became
predominant.  However, some iron-rich countries, like England, experimented
with cast iron cannon, as they were much cheaper than the bronze ones.  
Henry VIII established a foundry in Sussex for just this purpose.  The cast
iron cannon were vastly inferior to the bronze ones, and tended to explode.

        Burke's _Life in a Medieval Castle in England_ shows a cast bronze
cooking pot, with no date attributed, that has three very long feet and rings 
for hanging.  _The Viking_ by Almgren, Blindheim, and Eldjarn shows two iron
pots.  There is a small one made by raising from sheet iron, and a larger
one made by dishing 6 - 8 lames, and riveting them to each other and to a
dished bottom.

        I feel that cast iron pots for late period are likely.  While I
haven't yet found one, it makes sense that if cast iron cannon are cheaper
than cast bronze cannon, then cast iron pots are likely cheaper than 
cast bronze, of which we know that at least one was made.

                Avenel Kellough

From: Karsten Shein <K.Shein at uea.ac.uk>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 14 May 1996 09:03:09 GMT
Organization: Climatic Research Unit-University of East Anglia

kellogg at rohan.sdsu.edu (kellogg) wrote:
>David Friedman (ddfr at best.com) wrote:
>: Lady Aoife Finn wrote:
>
>: > Of course, I am referring to a large, heavy, round, footed, flat-top 
>: > cast-iron pot, such as is frequently illustrated hanging over the open 
>: > fires (!) in ancient kitchens. 
>
>: Can you give period examples of such pictures? I associate cast iron pots
>: with something a little later than our period, but don't really know. The
>: metal cooking vessels I have seen from early period seem to be rivetted
>: together.
>
>: Messibugio (16th century) has pictures of pots, but I can't tell if they
>: are cast--the handles appear to be rivetted on, which suggests a raised
>: metal pot (why not cast them if you are casting the pot)? My vague memory
>: is that the English were casting iron cannon before 1600, so you would
>: think they could do it. On the other hand, cast pots tend to be heavy, and
>: if iron was still expensive ....  .
>
>       I believe that the blast furnace, needed to cast iron, was not 
>invented until after 1700.  All the cast cannon I've seen from before that
>were brass.  However, the Chinese could cast iron during our period.
>They used a different process, and I believe had access to better ores
>than the West.
>
>       All the examples of iron pots from viking sites are raised (hammered)
>peices.  Small pots may be of a single piece, but large cauldrons are 
>frequently several lames overlapped and riveted together.  These, of
>course, are early/middle period.
>
>       Unfortunately, all my references are at home, and a fairly exhaustive
>Web search has turned up nothing that might provide an answer.
>
>               Avenel Kellough

I'll quote "Norwich Households: Medieval and Post-Medieval Finds from 
Norwich Survey Excavations 1971-78" p.90..."IV. Vessels (copper alloy; 
iron; wood; glass)  Copper alloy vessels... In general, the assemblages 
contain very few copper allow vessels, which reflects their high cost as 
compared with ceramic or wooden vessels....  Part of a large bowl made of 
hammered copper alloy sheet with an everted rim survives (566).  Cast 
cauldrons and skillets [3-legged bowl shaped with long handles--not to be 
confused with modern definition] are represented.  Legs of two types are 
known; straight ridged legs (565), and legs with feet, perhaps from ewers 
(567B, 568, 569).  .... Cauldrons are shown in use in a marginal 
illustration in the 14th-century 'Romance of Alexander' (Fig. 56): they 
have [looped] handles, and at least one has three legs; the two smaller 
cauldrons contain other vesssels, probably ceramic, and presumably 
functioned as double-boilers.  Such vessels were in use throughout the 
Middle Ages, eityher in an open fire, or suspended from a hook above it." 
 and p. 94..."Iron vessels, by Ian H. Goodall ... Iron vessels are among 
the least well represented items of kitchen ironwork, partly because in 
the medieval period, as no doubt later too, copper alloy vessels were far 
more numerous than those of iron (Field 1965, 135-45; Moorhouse 1987, 
vi-viii).  The iron vessels from Norwich, 581-590, are of both medieval 
and later date ....  The most significant individual find, however, [is] 
a long-handled pan...  The bowl of this pan is fragmentary but the long, 
solid, tapering handle, designed to keep the user away from the fire, and 
to limit the conduction of heat, is almost complete.  Pans of this form 
are not infrequently depicted in illustrations close to the date of the 
1507 fire, including the Kuchmaistrey published in Augsburg that 
year...and that of a pan-smith in 1544.  One with a flatter pan is shown 
in a 15th-century French manuscript.  582-585 are cast iron vessel 
fragments of post-merdieval date, 584, from a cauldron, being the most 
notable.  They may be comapred with similar 17th-century cast-iron 
vessels from Chingley Forge, Kent, and elsewhere..."  note: The 
illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and 
it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a 
giant dipper [ladle]).

Cheers
KS

From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Pots ( was: Re: Pennsic cooking)
Date: 15 May 1996 22:00:58 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>note: The 
>illustration of the pan looks like it is all hammered work (not cast) and 
>it resembles a modern frying pan with a dished bottom (almost like a 
>giant dipper [ladle]).
>KS

I've taken the liberty of hacking quite a bit off the top, (call me Sweeny);
to make mention of a simple and inexpensive method for forming such a skillet.

Start with a pressed iron skillet, (fleamarket US$1-5) and dish the bottom
(Any armourer should be able to help with a stump-sandbag-dishing stake)

Once it has been dished and planished you can rivet legs to it and cut off
the original handle and rivet a long tapering handle to it.  This will
not conduct heat exactly like cast iron----but forged pots are also known.

wilelm the smith

From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 22:27:56 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

rolf at deltainet.com (Pendraco) wrote:
> Cast iron is my favorite type of pan, but I have carpel tunnel in my
> wrists so I can't lift any but the smallest skillets.  I've been using
> my grandmother's square skillet for about fifteen years (and I got it
> after my mom used it for twenty years, and my grandmother for who
> knows how long).  It sounds like a lot of work, but it really only
> takes a few seconds.

Agreed completely with your views on cast iron cookware, but it does have
its limitations, like everything else. For instance, certain things like
various fruit dishes tend to discolor when cooked in iron. My solution is
often to simply not worry about it. I've found breads and pizzas are
excellent cooked in cast iron, lacking a brick oven.

A couple of points you may find interesting:

First, in view of your carpal tunnel condition, I wonder if you've tried
using HEAVY aluminum pans, like the saute pans that are generally used in
restaurant kitchens. They too will season, in the same way as iron, more
or less. You just need to heat/oil it an extra couple of times. One of the
frequently mentioned drawbacks is with aluminum's tendency to react to
acids by discoloring food or giving it an off flavor. This, of course, is
much less noticeable when the pan is properly seasoned. It's probably a
good idea to use a wooden or plastic spatula as well, since aluminum is a
bit softer than iron and might therefore scratch. 

Another possibility is with one of my favorite pans: a cheap, soft,
not-too-well-tempered low-carbon steel omelette pan. For about $5 you can
get, at a restaurant supply house, pans like these in various sizes. They
are quite lightweight, easily seasoned, and behave in most respects like
their heavier iron counterparts. Because they lack the mass of the iron
pans, they do develop "hot spots" when used over extremely high heat for
prolonged periods. Probably why they're generally used for omelettes!

Gideanus Tacitus Adamantius / P. Troy
c/o E. Rhude

From: powers at skink.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: "Seasoning" Cast Iron Ware
Date: 3 Aug 1996 18:26:50 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>I know cast iron isn't period, but hey, who cares?
>
>Vicente Coenca, Three Rivers, Calontir  

Documentation please.   "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" mentions
cast iron as being made in a fairly good range of countries during late
period time; so I would like to see some documentation---yea or nay---on 
whether cast iron cookware was/was not available.  My copy of "Iron and
Brass Implements of the English Home" seems to indicate that cast iron
cookware was available---though this is probably not the most authoritative
of sources.

BTW cast brass/bronze pots were known and probably would have profited
by a good THICK layer of seasoning to cut down on metal transfer.

wilelm the smith---who wrote TI about that glaring error in their
review of "Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel" but has not seen a 
correction yet.

From: ateno at panix.com (E. Rhude)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:48:27 -0400
Organization: PANIX Public Access Internet and Unix, NYC

Patsy Dunham <Patsy.R.Dunham at CI.Eugene.OR.US> wrote:
> Rowan <rowan at net-link.net> wrote:
> >I have had some good luck cooking outdoors with a cast-iron dutch oven, 
> >which has prepared bread, quiche, fruit cobblers and brownies from the 
> >campfires over the last couple of years at Pennsic and other events.
> >       How period is a dutch oven? It's an iron pot with an iron lid
you put in the fire.  That's pretty low-tech.
> >       Rowan.
> 
> Modern dutch ovens, however, are CAST iron, and I don't think _that_ is a 
> primitive technology...  While early peoples did cast small objects, 
> forged iron, and cast larger objects in other metals (bronze, silver, 
> gold), casting even something the size of a medium-size dutch oven, IN 
> IRON, would have, I think, required technological advances on the order 
> of what it took, in late period, to cast cannon. 
> 
> I'm sure some metal-worker out there will be able to confirm or refute my 
> gut reaction?
> 
> Chimene

You're right! Cast iron pots might be technically within period, but late
period if so. I believe cast iron Dutch ovens fall within this category.
We tend to think of pots for food as being heated from beneath, while
Dutch ovens are heated, hopefully, from all around. Medieval cooking pots
are often heated from the side, or some combination of side and bottom,
because they couldn't stand being heated very hot at only one point.
Because, you see, they were generally made of earthenware of some type, or
beaten brass, copper, or bronze.

If you look at various ornamental cauldrons taken from different Iron Age
Celtic digs, you'll see that they're made of several pieces, rivetted
together like a spangenhelm. Whether or not this holds true for pots
actually used for cooking, I can't say, and this is an example of
pre-medieval technology, anyway. However, there are enough references in
the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very
common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their
brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to
believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead
(shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they
were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway.

Anyway, unless iron pots were forged or rivetted from pieces, they'd have
to be very late period.

G. Tacitus Adamantius ? P. Troy
c/o E. Rhude

From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pennsic cooking
Date: 24 Aug 1996 16:24:06 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

E. Rhude <ateno at panix.com> wrote:

[snip] 
>  ...there are enough references in
>the medieval recipes and elsewhere to suggest that cast iron was not very
>common, if used at all. Both Kenelm Digby and Gervase Markham, in their
>brewing recipes, call a kettle or cauldron a "Lead", which leads me to
>believe the possibility exists that such pots were once made of lead
>(shudder) and that the name is a reference to the metal from which they
>were made, or a throwback to that time, anyway.

If you've ever let a candle burn down in a pewter candlestick, you would
know just how fast lead melts under direct heat.  (Though Kenelm Digby
does refer to a pewter brasier, so perhaps there was a _very_ low-lead
pewter.)  I doubt that anyone made a kettle or cauldron out of lead -- not
twice, anyway! :)

Tamar the Gypsy

From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Brazier
Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 11:21:04 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking

On Sun, 16 Feb 1997, Chris Bays wrote:
>       At Lilies last summer, I found a brazier which (silly me), I
> decided not to buy. It was a tripod, from which was suspended a pan for
> the fire, a grille, and a hook to hang a pot. Of course, now I want to
> find one, and can't. If anyone knows who may carry a similar thing, or of
> someone who makes them, please let me know. Post here or reply to:
> maredudd at pagan.com. Thanks a bunch.
> 
> Lady Maredudd

Ivar here,

The type of of firepit that you are describing in pretty much endemic in
the West Kingdom and to a lesser extent in An Tir due to prohibitions on
building ground fires.  If you can get access to a copy, T.I. #78, AS XXI,
(Spring, 1986), has an article on the design and construction of this
firepit.  It is by Duke Frederick of Holland who I believe is also the
inventor.  As to current sources of the pits themselves, I believe that
Iron Castle Armory in southern Oregon in making them, (I do not have an
address or number for them), and there may be others as well.

Ivar Hakonarson
Adiantum, An Tir.

From: pcrandal at flash.net (P. Crandall Polk)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cauldrons?
Date: Tue, 06 May 1997 22:25:30 GMT

noxgas at non1.med.nottingham.ac.uk (Gina Stammers) wrote:
>Does anyone know a supplier of sturdy cauldrons that could be used on
>an open fire?  Especially in the UK, any advice would be gratefully
>received.
>
>Gina Stammers

http://lehmans.com/catalog/

Though under construction, they may be able to get you a real catalog.
Good luck.
--
Crandall
Non sum qualie eram

From: powers at brain.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cauldrons?
Date: 10 May 1997 15:26:08 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>> Does the authenticity matter?  (and if so what time/place?)
>
>Authenticity isn't essential.  We are live roleplayers who dabble in and
>are tending towards Dark Age (Saxon/Viking/Romano-British) re-enactment
>and if the cost difference isn't massive an period cauldron would be
>useful so that it could be used if we do any strict living history
>stuff.
>
>> how large?
>
>A few gallons.  Big enough for a stew for twenty people.
> 
>> (remember that cast iron is a late period item, cast bronze a good
>> most of the period item, and beaten bronze/iron for earlier period)
>
>I'd assume that a cast bronze cauldorn doesn't come cheap. A beaten iron
>one would be ideal. A cast iron one is what I'm expecting to end up with.
>Dave Barnett

so here are my recomendations within certain criteria:

For size: 20 people x 1 quart per person--you're out in the weather right?
so 5 Gallons or so---large and heavy as cast iron, easier as a constructed
version.

Non-period---check out the scrapyards, you may be amazed at what is
already out there in pretty much the right shape and size and only needing
some legs rivited on or a spider constructed for it or more period--just
a good strong bail.

Give some thought to stainless steel if you can find a proper piece,
(a food processing plant near my old digs used to junk globose stainless
pieces in a variety of sizes..)  Due to easy of care stainless is not a
bad choice and as the outside can be left in a "fired" condition it
won't look as bad as you may think.

For a more period look: find someone making spangen helms and sell them
on making a proper constructed kettle.

Going all out: find wrought iron sheet and a good smith to hammer one out.

Watch out for: metals exposed to un-known chemicals---why I liked the food
               processing plant cast offs
     
               metal primed with lead primer

               brass/bronzes of unknown composition (lead sneaks in)

Advice think about "tinning" the interior of your kettle to stop leaks
and provide a food safe barrier, (NOTE pure tin as is used to line copper 
cookware *NOT* solder!)

Beware cracked castiron pots, pots nearly rusted through, and those
"improved" as flowerpots by having holed drilled in the bottom.

wilelm the smith

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Mustard Colored Fabric (Dye experiments)
Date: 8 May 1997 17:18:26 -0400
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

My messenger having failed in his task has found me on this bridge
watching the tide turn and the odd feud victim float by.  Being a kind
(no remarks as to *what* kind...) person I have "let him go" and will
endeavor to deliver the contents myself...

Re: the type of pots used to dye in the medieval period
<deletia>
>BTW, I've never seen it written that iron pots (which dull dyes and
>roughen the wool) were what caused peasants to wear dull autumn colors.
>IMHO, though, porcelain-coated dye vats would seem 'way more expensive
>and unreachable for peasants than iron kettles. That may be why lower
>classes dressed dull, while the wealthier wore bright colors. There may
>be a TI article in there somewhere.
>Regards, Lady Meara al-Isfahani

Gracious Lady Meara; perhaps investigation into what was used in period
times as dyepots would be a good first step.

Although we are conditioned to immediatly think of cast iron as the
"old cauldron", cast iron only starts showing up in widespread use in the
1400's.  Prior to that most "cast" pots were brass or bronze and so
would leach copper, tin and zinc into the dyevat if used.  However
for large tanks that would not exceed the temperature of boiling water
*lead* was usually the material of choice!  Built up pots constructed of
sheatmetal could be wrought iron or bronze if small but tended more toward
bronze for larger ones. (there is also other time-period shifts of usage).

None of this covers the use of "pottery" pots which were common and came
in a range of sizes--Theophilus mentions one large enough to put a goat
in to collect its urine (circa 1120 A.D.).

My first guess as to a large dyevat for a professional dyer would be lead
followed by bronze.  For a small "local" dyer I would probably *guess*
pottery followed by bronze.  I would think that iron was very un-likely
especially for a professional who needed a large vat---even after
cast iron became available!

Remember that using your cooking pot for dyeing may result in dying!
So a peasant may not want to use a very expensive iron pot when a cheaper
one may be available.

wilelm the smith, married to a spinster who has been teaching spinning for
over 20 years and pressed into service on a regular basis to provide
dye pots, vats and materials.  (we did a traditional indigo tank once that
was around 3/5ths my production....) 

I welcome information to correct any "assumptions" I may have made as this
is *not* my primary area of interest!

From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 11:25:06 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots (was: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #183)

On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, david friedman wrote:
> interested. We use it because it is the most period seeming thing we can
> readily get, but would be happy to shift to something better.

I'm in (approximately) the same position; while the "100% certified
period" cookware for my persona (10th c scandinavian) would be iron and
soapstone pots, perhaps with some clay, I have to settle for less. More or
less readily available are iron plate pots (any competent SCA armourer
should be able to manufacture these [1]), but the cost is beyond my
present budget (IIRC $75-100/ea). 

Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well. 
Clay is another option, but they share the fragility with the soapstone,
and I do not currently have the skill to manufacture them. I am also 
uncertain as to what extent they are period.

My solution so far has been to use aluminium billy can type pots. These
have the advantage that they look fairly much like the original when
viewed from the outside (when suitably blackened), and are durable and low
cost. But they are a compromise. 

/UlfR

[1] Most examples I have seen have the welds on the inside, thereby making
them waterproof. I do not know how the originals were waterproofed, but
several methods could have been used[2]. I would very much welcome
information on what methods _were_ used in period. 

[2] Solder, pitch, etc. I do not now if (forge-)welding would have been
possible. 
- --
Par Leijonhufvud                  par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se 

From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:05:55 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Cast iron cookpots

At 11:25 AM +0200 7/3/97, Par Leijonhufvud wrote:
>Soapstone would have to be purchased and worked, and are fragile as well.

Soapstone griddles can be purchased; we used to use one at home when I was
growing up to cook sourdough pancakes on. Soapstone pots, on the other hand
...  .

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at ki.se>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 07:32:57 +0200 (METDST)
Subject: Re: SC - Re- Cast iron cookpots

On 3 Jul 1997, Mark Harris wrote:
> Perhaps this is a European term. What is a "billy can" type pot? Are these
> stamped or cast out of alluminum?

Stamped or spun, thin (perhaps 2mm thick) aluminium pots with a wire
"bucket type" handle (so you can hang it over the fire). Look for open fire 
type backpacking supplies.

/UlfR
- --
Par Leijonhufvud                  par.leijonhufvud at labtek.ki.se 

Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 13:04:55 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Snails and Salamand

Marisa Herzog wrote:
> <snip>
> To use a salamander, make a recipe's worth of Digby's Savory Toasted Cheese,
> or perhaps a Cambridge Burnt Cream. Take your salamander and heat it in the
> coals until red hot, or if it is the kind that you fill
> <snip>
> 
> [horrified wail!]  I hope that a "salamander" as used above is some sort of
> cooking iron and not a slow cute little amphibian!
> -brid
> (a die hard omnivore, who knows where her steak comes from, but is now haunted
> by images of charred amphibians)

Gotcha!!! A salamander generally looks kinda like a solid disk-shaped
branding iron. You heat it and bring it really close to the surface you
are trying to brown. The name salamander as a culinary tool has survived
as the name of those eye-level broilers you sometimes see in restaurant
kitchens. Salamanders as heraldic/mythical beasts are more or less made
of fire, hence the imagery.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 09:56:00 -0700
From: DUNHAM Patricia R <Patricia.R.DUNHAM at ci.eugene.or.us>
Subject: SC - wafer irons, where to find

Oops, I'm answering the question that wasn't asked! 8-0!!  Thought they
said WAFER iron, not WAFFLE iron... figured it out when editing down the
previous- message-enclosed bit.  Answer works anyway. 8-)
 - - - - - - - - - - - -

You can always try big flea markets.  I've found two nice,
put-it-over-the-burner or camp fire-source Scandinavian style cast-iron
wafer irons at our local big-flea-market in the past 5 years.  Of
course, I'm in the Pacific NW, and there are a number of Scandinavian
enclaves up here.  (One of the irons has a Scandinavian maker's mark, am
not sure about the other.  One may actually be more like aluminum??)
These are NOT Waffle irons, either.  (A wafer iron is a pizzelle iron?,
makes a flat, elaborately patterned (like an etching), crisp round (6"?)
that's 1/8 inch or less thick.  A waffle iron has an internal grid of
1/4 inch square depressions, the campfire ones may come in round or
single square shapes.)  We saw waffle-irons about 20 times more
frequently (at Picadilly) than wafer irons during that 5 year period...

The patterns look reasonable, and I've actually used them (at home) over
an open-fire heat-source.  Have only tried a couple of times, don't have
the recipe settled yet.  They'd make great ice-cream cones 8-)

Patricia R. Dunham - Eugene Public - 100 W 13th Ave - 97401
patricia.r.dunham at ci.eugene.or.us - 541-984-8321

Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:25:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Advice -- Tools for crushing stuff (was shortbread help)

  I am taking to heart the advice to crush the shortbread, but wondering
  what tools (short of running over it with the car) would be best.  This
  isn't really a narrow question about this particular bit of shortbread,
  but a broader question about, for example, what types of mortars and
  pestles are best for what uses (I've seen advertised mortar and pestle
  sets made out of wood, ceramic, and brass; what works best where?)

I'd suggest a modern food processor,with the sharp metal chopping blade.
Not a mortar and pestle, unless you feel a great desire to do handwork.

When I was in France, some years ago, I saw a period food processor: a very
large wheel, studded with blades, that spun and was inserted into a narrow
round bottom bowl, and with a feeder chute on the top.  It gives me a small
justification for using a Cuisinart or whatever when I need to.

	Tibor

Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - Re:  #328-31

  << I dunno.  Like I said, I saw it in a kitchen when I was in Europe, and
   played with it.  No one there could even tell me what it was called: but the
   sign on the room dated it to period.
   	Tibor >>
  
  I don't suppose you could draw it for us?....................hmmmmmm. :-)

No.  I draw worse than I dance. (:-)

It was a large wheel, the size of a rotary whetstone or a small car tire,
made of wood.  It had metal blades (not particularly sharp) studing it.  It
was encased in a round wooden box, that opened like a flip top lid for
cleaning.  The bottom of the box had a chute or hole, with room for a bowl
to be placed on the floor underneath.  The top had a chute for dropping food
onto the wheel.  The wheel had a large crank coming out one side. You
obviously turned the crank, the wheel would spin with great momentum, and
then you'd drop food down the chute on top, and mush would come out the
bottom.  The whole was about as tall as a short man or average woman.

	Tibor (6' tall, if you want to discuss short or average height.  :-)

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:17:05 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Romertopf?

>What is a romertopf?
>
>Marjorie

Romertopf is a modern clay cooking pot with a clay cover.  It is similar
to the cloche, a clay dome placed on a baking stone to serve as a
portable oven.  This method of baking has been employed since antiquity.

There is a photograph of an Athenian cloche excavated from the Agora in
Elizabeth David's English Bread and Yeast Cookery.

Bear

Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 06:58:25 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - Couple of Questions for Y'all

>Subject: Re: SC - Couple of questions for ya'll...
>
>> The early equivalent to aluminum foil was usually leaves and/or (clayish)
>>  mud covering. Don't know when it started, but since it's found in many
>>  cultures worldwide, I suspect it has been independently discovered a
>>  zillion times.
>
>I've also baked a ham in rye dough, as per a recipe we were trying to do from
>a period source the hostess had. It didn't make much difference in the taste,
>so we abandoned the idea as too cumbersome for a feast of any size. Since it
>was easy to find I assume it was late period.
>
>Corwyn

There really is no "one period way" to cook individuallly wrapped dishes,
though that technique was know and used inperiod. Dough (discarded or not
afterwards), leaves, clay, straw or hay (which adds a neat flavor to ham),
the item's own skin,  dredgings, and paper were all used to coat cooked
items and shield it somewhat from excessive drying or scorching in the heat
of the fire or oven while cooking. I personally have read referances to all
of these things being used.

Dough: Apecius, The ham with fig sauce recipe.
Straw/hay: Molokhovet's Gift to Young Housewives and other Slavic Sources
such as Domostroi and Brad and Salt ( Gift is OOP but large chunks probably
date to a period practice).
Dredgings: Any Medieval European cookbook such as Taillevant, etc....
Paper: Late period bakery items such as Housewife's Jewel (Dawson) have us
putting the small cakes on papers in the oven to dry. I also saw a recipe I
cannot recall for papered fish somewhere, and vaguely remember some (Martha
Washington or Possibly some other slightly OOP source) directions to shield
something on top with paper , a bakery item I seem to recall, possibly from
Mrs. McClintock's Receipts for Cookery and Pastrywork (or something
remarkably similar), Ed. Isabail MacLeod, Glasgow U. Press, which is the
first *published* scottish cook book, tho OOP by a fair margin.
Leaves and Clay: Archaeological evidence of excavated household fire pits
and trash dumps.

So you can see, though I'm a little fuzzy this A.M., that the concept of
Aluminium Foil ie: wrapping/covering food prior to cooking or using a
substance as a heat barrier while cooking is not a new thing. Foil is a
handy substitute, but I believe we should also remember that it does not
impart any flavor to the food being cooked (other than a possible aluminium
taste), the way hay or leaves or dredgings or dough might do. So when you
are substituting for modern ease of preparation, you may well be changing
the character of the dish.

I am remnded of the recipe I have always meant to try, but never got the
chance: Rye or Black bread dough baked in cabbage leaves (which act as a
bread pan). Cabbage can get almost sweet, and I imagine would impart a green
flavor to the dough. Has anyone tried this? I ran across it in a secondary
source while looking for Russian foodstuffs a few years ago.

And, when you are gathering leaves for wrapping, remember: Leaves of Three,
let them be ;^D!

Aoife---waiting for the caffeine to hit the bloodstream

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 14:41:30 -0000
From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk>
Subject: RE: SC - RE: Introduction--Reply, Query

...
going back to Aoife's question

> reliably over a fire, in addition to other methods), I am a little stumped
> as to acoutrements---are there any period-type implements out there, and
> where do I get them? Any ideas?
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]
        the best evidence I've come across is Bartelomeo Scarpi's drawings -
do you know them?  They cover 'how to lay out a kitchen', 'what you need for
a field kitchen' (which is the best for this situation), kitchen knives and
equipment; other kitchen equipment; how to get food into a Conclave (he
cooked for a Cardinal who became a pope) etc etc.  He is late 16th century
and italian, but a lot of what he shows turns up in earlier drawings - at
least it looks very similar.  Barbara Hentisch's 'Fast and Feast' has 14th
century pictures showing very similar stuff.  Scarpi hasn't been published
(so far as I know), but is used by other cooks for illustrations- and the
best version I've seen is in a Penguin Paperback of Elizabeth David's
Italian Cooking.

        As for getting hold of it, in the UK we are beginning to get
re-enactment suppliers who are prepared to copy drawings and make things.
As I understand it, anyone doing iron work, swords, armour, etc, should be
able to make these things - whether they are prepared to, or how much it
would cost, I don't know.

> I have a tripod, hooks and chains, kettles
> (large and small), etc. but need a pot lifter, a trivet, a spit
> (adjustable), and some fire-tiles.
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]

        As I recall it, our spit and trivet, which are about 18 months old,
cost about UKP250, by a specialist maker.  The spit has racks on both sides
giving full flexibility, stands about 5' high and about 6' long - the spit
itself is about 7' long - we can comfortably cook two deer legs on it.  Not
sure of the maximum weight it will take - we haven't had the problem so far!
I'm usually feeding about 40 people.  The trivet is about 2' by 3' and
stands 2' high on solid ground - it has parallel bars across it which are
close enough to be able to roast mackeral on without worrying that too much
will fall in the fire (and very good they tasted)

        Pot lifter?  Presumably you don't mean a cloth!  With big pots I
rely on a solid piece of wood and two strong gentlemen (some of the pots I
have to work with are too big for me to lift empty!)

> I'd also like some "hot shot", which a
> local rev-war group uses to heat their dishwater---it's basically a
> gate-weight or small cannonball with an cast iron loop attached. You throw
> it in the fire, and when you're ready to wash dishes, you fish it out with
> a
> fire iron and swirl it in your tub of water---instant hot dishwater!

        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  Gosh!  havn't tried that.  I usually put a
cauldron of hot water on about when we start serving up and by the time the
washer-uppers have finished eating, its warm enough.

Caroline

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:33:55 -0600
From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at ptd.net>
Subject: SC - pot lifter

>       Pot lifter?  Presumably you don't mean a cloth!  With big pots I
>rely on a solid piece of wood and two strong gentlemen (some of the pots I
>have to work with are too big for me to lift empty!)
>[Yeldham, Caroline S]

It stands upright, and had a wooden handle (looks sort of like a footed
cane). The central of the three feet at the bottom is attached, via a long
pole, to the handle with a hinge. It (the central prong) has an L shaped
end. The gist of it is that you stand at normal posture and hook the L over
either the lid handle or the pot handle. You squeeze the  cane handle and
the L tightens on the pot's handle, and you lift the cane handle and put the
pot where you want it.

I also have been given a wholly historically fictional but wonderfully
useful stainless steel  pole and rack which work by tension (pole through a
hole on the rack's handle---rack shaped like a paddle). With a pot on the
rack, tension will hold it where you place it, and you can swing it in and
out of the fire as needed. The height isn't adjustable, tho, once the pot is
on the rack.

I have been looking for a big cauldron (local community center uses one for
a flower planter---but won't sell it to me!!!grrrrrrr). I really didn't give
much thought to what I would do with one once I had it!!! I have two now,
one is about 1 1/2 US gallons, one is about 1 gallon. They suffice for small
crowds. I resort to stock pots for larger crowds!

Aoife

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:34:53 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - cooking without fire, among others

Aoife, one of the very accessible fire tools here (apart from
the 3-legged pots, which can be HUGE) is the spider.  It's a triangle
with legs, and you rest your pots on it.  I'm fairly certain I've
seen them in Scappi.  They come in varying heights, and last year
ranged from R13-R19 (US $2-4).  Maybe we can come to some
arrangement?

Cairistiona
IVANTETS at BOTZOO.UCT.AC.ZA

Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 12:24:15 +1100 (EST)
From: Charles McCathieNevile <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - pot lifter

There is a historical device for hanging a pot on over a fire. It relies
on having a beam above the fire, and is adjustable. I think the original
illustration I have seen is in the Maciejowski bible - a 13th C set of
miniatures mostly in the Pierpont collection, And published as _Old
Testament Miniatures_, Sydney Cockerel, London 1967. I forget the
publisher.

The beasty consists of a flat toothed piece of Iron, one end bent over to
hang on the beam, and at the other end, on the non-toothed bar, a small
loop. A rod goes through the loop, and has a hook at the bottom (down
past the toothed flat piece, and on the other end a hinged loop of its
own, large enugh to slide over the teeth, and pull into one to fix the
height.

I guess this is not very easy to imagine, but the same thing is made by
blacksmiths today.

Charles Ragnar

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:07:22 -0800
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen kits (long)

Hi all from Anne-Marie.
First off, let me salute you, Celestria! A period encampment is a step that
many SCA folks just dont want to bother with, for a lot of reasons. Good
for you! I'm attempting the same thing, and have made some observations by
looking mostly at non-SCA medieval recreation groups and lots of primary
source material.

To cook "medievally" you need:
1. fire source. Much depends on your kingdom, and where you live. The
oh-so-medieval ground fires are almost always verbotin here, so I'm
commissioning a fire box type gizmo from a local guy with a forge. It will
be the requisite foot off the ground, and fairly shallow. My reserach shows
that food was cooked on charcoal more than fires (I even have a picture of
cooks cooking on little black squares. Briquets! :)). But both wood and
charcoal wre used and are represented in the primary source material.
You'll need a way to start your fire, whether flint and steel (The Duke of
Burgundy's badge was a fire striker), or a couvre chef (a little domed
gizmo to cover the coals from the night before so you can start the next
days fire with them). I've seen SCA contraptions of braziers that fold
up...not very medieval, but slick. I've seen fireboxes made out of half
barrels (sliced longwize and set up on bricks so their off the ground), the
tops to a hot water heater, etc etc etc. The possibilities are endless,
even for the finanically constrained.

2. Fire toys. Pokers and prodders and pot lid lifters and hooks and chains
and a trammel to suspend pots over your fire. If you cover your fire area
with a canvas tarp you will be safe from sun and rain. I saw a neat gizmo
at GWW of a blow pipe...a small bit of metal pipe with a cap with ahole in
it. Blow on the fire to get it going. Neat! And just like the medieval
copper smelters.

3. Pots. Medieval pots were copper, tin, ceramic, etc. I am planning on
making do with the more readily accessible cast iron. 18th century
recreationists sutlery sells neat ones with feet that look just like the
medieval ones, not the flatter modern Lodge cast iron style, and for about
the same price. I also saw footed skillets and am attmepting to pin one of
those down. Most cool! You'll need stirring things as well...skimmers and
ladles and spoons and a fleshe forke if you want to get really authentic
about it.

4. A wooden bucket of water and/or sand right near by. Just in case, its
fire after all. You can get these through the sutlers, or Panther
Primitives, etc. I got mine at a hardware store...its supposed to be a
decorator item, and I lined it with clear epoxy to make it invisibly
watertight.

5. Lots of hotpad units. I'm planning on making mine out of wool scraps
(cheap up here), sewing lots of layers together, and leaving my modern ones
at home.

6. Recipies!!! Of course you'll only want to cook medieval food in your
medieval kitchen, right? :) Funny, most medieval recipeis lend themselves
well to cooking on an open fire, ie boil and serve, simmer and serve, fry
and serve. I am still attempting to figure out how to bake bread and pies
in my cast iron ware. I took a class and so just need to practice to get
the hang of it. at GWW we ate off the fire exclusively and ate like kings.

7. most importantly, either do away, or hide everything that's not
documentably authentic for the period. Put the coolers in a tent and only
bring stuff out after transferring to a medieval container like a wooden
bowl, or plate. Better yet, do away with the coolers altogether if you can
(Cariadoc and Elizabeth did an article on this for the TI not too long
ago). Throwing a piece of fabric over a cooler does not make it medieval
magically. Neither does painting Celtic knotwork on a propane stove. Sorry!
:)

anyway, good luck! maybe we can compare notes when I find source for more
of the toys I need.
- --Anne-Marie

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:26:49 -0000
From: "Yeldham, Caroline S" <csy20688 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk>
Subject: RE: SC - kitchen kits (long)

Hello from Caroline

I hope I can help - I've been cooking this way for the last 6 years in
living history in the UK (30 - 100 people, about half the weekends each
summer).  I wanted to answer some of Anne-Maries points as well, so have
included her text.
First, Celestria, you are being very sensible, it will take a long time to
get everything together.  How long probably depends on what suppliers you
can track down to make things for you, how much they charge and your
disposable income (I'm still working on it and feel I have quite a long way
to go)

> To cook "medievally" you need:

> 1. fire source. Much depends on your kingdom, and where you live. The
> oh-so-medieval ground fires are almost always verbotin here, so I'm
> commissioning a fire box type gizmo from a local guy with a forge. It will
> be the requisite foot off the ground, and fairly shallow.
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  Its a pity, do try for ground fires if you
can (dig up the turves) - we don't have much of a problem here in the UK
even on archeological sites (some of them even have existing fireplaces!).
I presume Anne-Marie is referring to the risk of fire spreading in dry
conditions.  If not possible, Anne-Marie's solution sounds reasonable.

> My reserach shows
> that food was cooked on charcoal more than fires (I even have a picture of
> cooks cooking on little black squares. Briquets! :)).
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  ? I would say wood was much more common -
charcoal production was labour intensive and skilled job, and needed the
right sort of wood.

> I saw a neat gizmo
> at GWW of a blow pipe...a small bit of metal pipe with a cap with ahole in
> it. Blow on the fire to get it going. Neat! And just like the medieval
> copper smelters.
>
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  Bellows would be more common

> 3. Pots. Medieval pots were copper, tin, ceramic, etc.
        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  Depends on period - but certainly for late
15th century bronze cooking pots were common, as were pottery ones.

>  I am planning on
> making do with the more readily accessible cast iron. 18th century
> recreationists sutlery sells neat ones with feet that look just like the
> medieval ones, not the flatter modern Lodge cast iron style, and for about
> the same price. I also saw footed skillets and am attmepting to pin one of
> those down. Most cool! You'll need stirring things as well...skimmers and
> ladles and spoons and a fleshe forke if you want to get really authentic
> about it.

        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  You will need to track down suppliers for any
of these - I could give you references for the UK, but I assume that's not
much use.  As for picture references - try Fast and Feast by Bridget Ann
Henicsh - lots of 14th century pictures of cooking, or for even better
pictures from the end of the 16th century, try and find some Scarpi pictures
(I think Cindy used them for her Take 1000 Eggs (?) - the Penguin version of
Elizabeth Davids' Italian cooking
        has clear versions - look for the 'how to set up an outside
kitchen', also the different knives used. in period.  We had copied the spit
arrangement he shows which works very well, and the trivet as well.   He
shows a lovely cauldron stand with spit holders for small spits which I
rather covet.  In the meantime we use large wooden tripods with a long
wooden bar in between to suspend the cauldrons (they stand 6' to 7' high)

> 5. Lots of hotpad units. I'm planning on making mine out of wool scraps
> (cheap up here), sewing lots of layers together, and leaving my modner
> ones
> at home.

        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  I use lengths of linen.  Lots of cloth (linen
of different types) - to strain with, to bolt with, to mop up with, cover up
food (esp. when flies are about).  Have a look at Terence Scully's work on
Chiquart - its amazing how much cloth he specifies.

        [Yeldham, Caroline S]  Trestle table(s), platters, bowls, jugs, pots
of all sizes, chopping boards, knives, spoons, sieves, basket ware, chests,
sacks.  I never have enough things to put ingredients or dishes in the
process of being made, or finished dishes on, temporarily or for serving.

        Caroline

Date: 20 Feb 1998 09:09:59 -0800
From: "Marisa Herzog" <marisa_herzog at macmail.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - kitchen kits (long

I have a gizmo that I am rather proud of.  For many years my husband had been
holding onto this funny half barrel "booze cabinet".  It is about 1'x2' and
maybe a foot deep at the absolute center.  It is meant to hang on the wall
from a chain across the back.  It was starting to fall apart, and served no
real purpose.
He was about to throw it away when I realized it could be made useful.  I tore
out the silly racks inside meant for glasses and bottles,  cleaned it up,
re-set the hinges on the doors, laquered it with weather-proof finish, put in
some better shelves and bars, and put a hook in the top overhang.
Now I have a travelling kitchen cabinet!  It has room for herbs, spices, teas,
bottles of vinegar, oil and honey, some pewter mugs, a small cutting board and
a couple of knives.  I hang wooden spoons and fresh cut herbs from the hook,
so when it is open, the non-period things are not as obvious.  And it hangs so
it can be put up out of the way and the weather.  It isn't huge but is large
enough for my share of whatever household cooking gets done at weekend events.
I have seen similar half-barrel contraptions at flea-markets, just waiting for
make overs!
- -brid

From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 15:05:39 GMT

Gary Wolverton <route66 at ameritech.net> wrote:
>    Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.

"The answer" depends on when in time, where geographically, and the purpose.
That said, lead was common at various times in England as it was low cost,
easy to work, and could be readily reused. Copper and bronze were also both
used for larger vessels. These three metals were generally the preferred
metal for brewing kettles in England. German brewing tradition moved rapidly
to copper in the 14th century. Iron was a common material at some times, but
not used for brewing generally (I know you didn't ask about brewing in
specific, but it's a good example of use determining the materials).   

Henry

From: Mark Shier <mark at medievalwares.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:31:15 -0800
Organization: Island Net on Vancouver Island B.C. Canada

    Bronze cauldrons are sold by Rayne Foundry at
http://www.castings.demon.co.uk/

    Excellent iron cauldrons are available from Jas. Townsend at
http://www.jastown.com/

Iron cauldrons are a little too modern for me ( I do 14C), but they are
a lot more affordable.

                                    Mark der Gaukler

From: powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 26 Mar 1998 12:26:16 -0500
Organization: The Ohio State University, Department of Computer and Information Science

>    Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>    If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?

Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe.  Previously
cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
even today!

Early period has left us examples of wrought iron pots both beaten
from a single sheet and assembled from several pieces, bronze pots
beaten from sheets and assembled, soapstone pots, clay pots.

If you are gung-ho I will gladly sell you some wrought iron plate
to take to your local blacksmith to make into a kettle; sane people
may settle for mild steel---just think of a pot as being a really
large and very dished knee-cop....(I usually point twords a smith since
working hot or annealing regularly helps a lot).

What time/place are you interested in?  I may be able to provide a
cite to an example.

May I also commend to your attention "Iron and Brass Implements of 
the English House"  with has some dandy period examples---I love the
pot with the inscription "The wages of sin is death" cast into
the handle...

wilelm the smith

From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 26 Mar 1998 14:38:10 -0500

>>    Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>>    If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?

Since you have already had the iron pot portion of your question
answered, you might take a look at ceramic pots as well.  I'd try
_Medieval Catalogue_ London: London Museum, 1967, and
Mayes, Philip and Butler, Lawrence, _Sandal Castle Excavations, 1964-73_ 
Wakefield, W. Yorkshire: Wakefield historical publications, 1983. 
I believe that both of these have examples of cooking pots (as well
as other really cool items of daily use).  At the size you are 
specifying, though, I'm not sure about pottery cauldrons even existed,
although to be honest I don't know either way.

As for *finding* anything close might be tricky, unless you want to 
order something new -- and something of that size is going to be 
pricy new.  If you are very patient you can sometimes find them in
cast iron at flea markets and thrift stores.

Marc/Diarmuit
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

From: Andrew Tye <atye at efn.org>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:10:02 -0800
Organization: Oregon Public Networking

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Mark Shier wrote:
>     Bronze cauldrons are sold by Rayne Foundry at
> http://www.castings.demon.co.uk/
> 
>     Excellent iron cauldrons are available from Jas. Townsend at
> http://www.jastown.com/
> 
> Iron cauldrons are a little too modern for me ( I do 14C), but they are
> a lot more affordable.

Ivar here,

In addition, you might want to check with the Cumberland General Store.
The last catalogue I have from them has cast iron cauldrons in sizes
from 6 to 45 gallons and hand-hammered copper cauldrons from 10 to 40
gallons.  They are NOT cheap however.

The last time I checked, the CGS did not have a web site.  They can be
reached at:
                Cumberland General Store
                Route 3
                Crossville, TN 38555  USA

                (800) 334-4640 - orders
                (615) 484-8481
                                  
Ivar Hakonarson
Adiantum, An Tir.

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 16:51:21 -0800
From: Heather Senkler <wl835 at victoria.tc.ca>
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons

On Thu, 26 Mar 1998, Gary Wolverton wrote:
>     Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
> vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
> some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>     If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
> might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?

Having just returned from London I can tell you about two cooking vessels
I saw at the British Museum. The massive pot from Sutton Hoo is probably
not your style but the chain holding it up was incredibly detailed and
intricate. The other "pot" was a metal helm with holes on the edges to
hang it by.

Ekatarina

From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:05:15 GMT

LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson) wrote:
>>"lead was common at various times in England"
>
>Really?  When?  I am really curious about things like this.
>
>Marc/Diarmuit
>lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

 As you know, the above quotation was in reference to the types of materials
employed in the fabrication of kettles - in addition to the assumed iron and
stoneware.

The term "lead" meant a kettle in addition to the metal itself in the 14th
century (c.f. OED). During the period 1350 to 1450, numerous estate
inventories and wills identified lead kettles as a significant item of real
property. In addition, there are references to lead lined cooling trays -
the lead was used to simplify cleaning and to make by-industrial cooling
vessels water (or beer) tight.

References to country house practices at the end of the 16th century include
mention of lead pipes used to move beer from one location to another during
brewing.  

You can find references to 14th century leads in "Ale, Beer, and Brewsters
in England" by Bennett. Sanbrook's "Country House Brewing in England 1500
1900" details the continued use of lead in many country houses through the
17th century.

Although "lead" was used to mean a kettle in many documents from 1300-1600,
the term did not necessarily indicate that the lead was made of lead.
Indeed, the term became a corruption when referencing brewing (c.f. OED).

As indicated in an earlier post, lead was a favored metal because it was
easily worked and reclaimed. By comparison, copper and its alloys were less
easily worked (it work hardens and requires annealing) and generally were
reclaimed by reuse (c.f. Country House Brewing on the topic of building a
furnace). 

Henry

From: Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 1998 07:14:10 GMT

powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) wrote:

>>    Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
>>vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
>>some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
>>    If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
>>might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
>
>Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe.  Previously
>cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
>pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
>mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
>even today!

Tinning is not always needed. For example, Many German and English breweries
continue to use untinned boiling coppers. The coppers are properly prepared
by cleaning so that the verdigris and similar copper compounds don't leach
into whatever is cooked in the pot. French chefs commonly use a copper bowl
for beating egg whites - without tinning.

As always -  know and understand your food/vessel chemistry.

Henry

From: LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.EDU (I. Marc Carlson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: 27 Mar 1998 22:37:19 -0500

<Henry Davis <hdavis at ix.netcom.com>>
>As you know, the above quotation was in reference to the types of materials
>employed in the fabrication of kettles - in addition to the assumed iron and
>stoneware.

You are right.

>The term "lead" meant a kettle in addition to the metal itself in the 14th
>century (c.f. OED). During the period 1350 to 1450, numerous estate
>inventories and wills identified lead kettles as a significant item of real
>property. In addition, there are references to lead lined cooling trays -
>the lead was used to simplify cleaning and to make by-industrial cooling
>vessels water (or beer) tight.

And here it is "A large pot or cauldron or kettle; a large open vessel used
in brewing and various other operations (originally one made of lead, but early
used without reference to the material).  Hmm.

I did realize as I was looking at the picture of the lead "tanks" in this
quarter's _Antiquity_ (late Saxon era) that I'm not sure the original poster
made it clear what the use for the 10-20 gallon tub was.  I don't know about
anyone else, but I assumed they were referring to *cooking*, which may not
be true at all.

Clearly, though, lead seems to have been popular with the brewing industry.
I have to wonder -- since lead pots are alleged to change the flavor of
vinager to a distinctive sweet flavor, what does it do to things brewed
in them?

(I saw the whole "white lead" versus "black lead" thing from 1567, as well
as the "leaden milk pan" definition)

Marc/Diarmuit
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:18:08 -0500 (EST)
From: william thomas powers <powers at cis.ohio-state.edu>
To: stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous)

> powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu (william thomas powers) wrote:
>
> > >    Does anyone out there know what the period material for cooking
> > >vessels was? I am inclined to believe that it was either cast iron or
> > >some form of stoneware such as clay or terra cotta.
> > >    If it be one or the other, etc. are there any ideas of where one
> > >might find an event or feast sized pot in the 10 to 20 gallon size?
> >
> > Cast iron is a Renaissance "invention" for western europe.  Previously
> > cast bronze/brass, (bell metal), (if you go this route make sure your
> > pot is *properly* *tinned* and check/re-tin it at regular intervals
> > mush like what is done with *up* scale copper cooking implements
> > even today!
> >
> > Early period has left us examples of wrought iron pots both beaten
> > from a single sheet and assembled from several pieces, bronze pots
> > beaten from sheets and assembled, soapstone pots, clay pots.
> >
> > If you are gung-ho I will gladly sell you some wrought iron plate
> > to take to your local blacksmith to make into a kettle; sane people
> > may settle for mild steel---just think of a pot as being a really
> > large and very dished knee-cop....(I usually point twords a smith since
> > working hot or annealing regularly helps a lot).
> >
> > What time/place are you interested in?  I may be able to provide a
> > cite to an example.
> >
> > May I also commend to your attention "Iron and Brass Implements of
> > the English House"  with has some dandy period examples---I love the
> > pot with the inscription "The wages of sin is death" cast into
> > the handle...
> >
> > wilelm the smith

In haste pray foregive my terseness!!

> You still have some of that iron plate??? I thought you would have
> used it up or sold it off by now.

I have had little time at the forge this year, having pneumonia
las summer had a large impact on my schedules.  I still
have considerable quantities of wrought iron.

> What form is it in? And how much do you want for it? Any idea what
> it will cost to ship it to Austin, Texas?

3/16" and 5/16" in plate.  Check the UPS schedule for shipping costs.

> I'm still trying to get into some blacksmithing and from what you've
> said, this wrought iron plate is a better material for blacksmithing
> than the mild steels of today.

If you are trying to do authentic work it is *mandatory*; however it
does work differently from mild steel---some folk have trouble with it
mainly due to its need to be worked at high temperatures.

> Is it true that wrought iron is less susceptible to rust than steels?

It is less susceptable to damage by rust.

> Thanks for the other info. Do you have a more complete biblio. for
> this "Iron and Brass Implements..." book? Where did you locate
> yours?

"Iron and Brass Implements of the English House" J.Seymour Lindsay

First edition published in 1927 by the Medici Society, London

Revised and enlarged and republished by Alec Tiranti Ltd in 1964, London

I found my copy in a used bookstore in Fayetteville Arkansas in 1979.
(predates ISBN)

Thomas/Wilelm

From: Duane Brocious <dnb105 at psu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cast Iron in Period?
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 1998 20:38:33 -0500

Iryshrovrs wrote:
> As far as I know...cast iron itself isn't period..

Cast iron came into use with the double acting bellows (a Chinese
import) in Europe circa the 13th century, as did the use of forged iron
in S.E.Asia. It has been hypothesized that the exchange of
techniques/technology arose from the contact between Europe and Asia at
that time (see Marco Polo et al).
In any case, from 1300 on, cast iron is period in Europe.

Ferret

Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:49:57 -0500
From: blues <blues at mail.ic.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Kettles and Cauldrons

In addition to Jas. Townsend and Cumberland General Store, I would
recommend Lehamn's Non-Electric Hardware. They're on the web at
www.lehmans.com, but I'd recommend getting their printed catalog.

From: tanyaw at world.std.com (Tanya Washburn)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Cast Iron in Period?
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:04:40 -0500

iryshrovrs at aol.com (Iryshrovrs) wrote:
> As far as I know...cast iron itself isn't period...but it looks close enough. 
> I use mine at events, because I don't know what else to use.

I've been researching this very thing! In France they used ceramic pots
for hearth cooking, until relatively modern times. They look like New
England Beanpots, with handles on the sides, and three small feet that
raise the pot above the coals an inch or so. They have a couple in the
Louvre in Paris that they excavated during the renovations a few years
ago. I believe that they were used elsewhere in Europe, with surviving
examples in England, and maybe
pictoral evidence in Germany. I am going to keep looking, and in the
meantime, try using my beanpot over a campfire to see how it goes!

Hope this was useful, and I wish I could be more specific in my citations!

Tanya

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 16:45:23 -0500
From: Christi Redeker <Christi.Redeker at digital.com>
Subject: SC - I've been reading again

I bet you have been cursing my Mistress for ever giving me this book, but I
have been reading The Original Mediterranean Cuisine by Barbara Santich
again (lovely book lots of information for anyone who doesn't have it).
And, yet again I have a question.

Can anyone out there tell me where I may find an illustration of a Testo?

The book says, "There is a link here with Ancient Rome, where cakes had been
cooked in or under an earthenware testum, surrounded by hot coals.  The
medieval testo, was an earthenware or metal dish with a concave lid that
held coals to provide heat from above."  Then, "Italia torta recipes include
quite specific instructions on baking, and on the amount of heat needed
above and below."

Any information on these would be welcome and maybe I will make one to
experiment with.

Murkial

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 18:06:27 -0700 (MST)
From: Sabia <sabia at unm.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - I've been reading again

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Christi Redeker wrote:
> Can anyone out there tell me where I may find an illustration of a Testo?
>
> The book says, "There is a link here with Ancient Rome, where cakes had been
> cooked in or under an earthenware testum, surrounded by hot coals.  The
> medieval testo, was an earthenware or metal dish with a concave lid that
> held colas to provide heat from above."  Then, "Italia torta recipes include
> quite specific instructions on baking, and on the amount of heat needed
> above and below."

Murkial there is an article in Food in Antiquity (edited by John wilkens,
David Harvey, & Mike Dobson) on the Clibanus and testum in ancient Rome
with descriptions and archaeological detailed sketches. They discuss some
of the materials used in assembly plus some of the breads made.

Sabia (sabia at unm.edu)

Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 09:17:52 EDT
From: LrdRas <LrdRas at aol.com>
Subject: SC - Chopsticks

In a message dated 4/7/98 7:33:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Christi.Redeker at digital.com writes:

<< Actually, what had happened is that the Autocrat had asked for a Far Eastern
 feast so that she could offer chop sticks as site tokens.   >>

Although I don't have the references handy, I recall reading somewhere that
chopsticks were a fad in Renassance Italy. Also a lady did a period cooking
class on Oriental medieval food at Pennsic a couple of years ago. Perhaps
someone on the list can provide her name and contact info?

Ras

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:14:57 -0400
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Stoves and ovens

 So, what we need is the earliest documentation any of us can find for
!) pot au feu 2) cooking with stoves.  What do people have?
>Regards,
>Lady Allison

From"Old Cooking Utensils" by David J. Eveleigh, Shire Publications, UK

        "Boiling was the simplest and most widely practised method of
cooking.  Large boiling vessels, described variously as crocks,
cauldrons, kettles, boilers and furnaces constitute the most widely found
cooking utensils prior to 1800.  They were used at every social level but
amongst the poor especially were regularly employed to prepare an entire
meal.  Meat was placed in a pot of boiling water, followed later with
vegetables and a pudding which were wrapped in cloths and nets.  .....
 ...............Despite the variety of names, there were basically just
two types of boiling vessel; the *cauldron* and the *kettle*.  Both had a
long ancestry.  Metal cauldrons were first used in Britain about 1000 BC
during the late bronze age, and kettles originated in the Anglo-Saxon
*cytel*.  Cauldrons were round bellied and round bottomed, and by the
middle ages were being made with three legs which gave them stability and
enabled them to stand in the fire.  They were also provided with two
'ears' close to the rim by which they could be suspended over the hearth.
 Cauldrons were always made of cast metal, unlike kettles which were made
from sheet metal, usually brass, hammered by hand to form a straighter
sided, open-top vessel.  ......
        Most cauldrons recorded in sixteenth and seventeenth century
inventories were cast in a metal commonly described by contemporaries as
"crock brass" or "bell metal".  This was an alloy of copper and tin,
similar to bronze, although usually containing quantities of lead and
zinc.  There are few inventories that list cauldrons made of iron, but
these were rare.  Although cast iron was cheap it was of poor quality
until... 1709...
     ...........Stewing required a gentle even heat and for this a
separate brick stove burning charcoal was often used in preference to the
main kitchen grate until the developement in the nineteenth century of
kitchen ranges enclosed on top with a hot plate.  ...
     ...........Originally ovens were associated exclusively with baking.
 From the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries most substantial homes in
the countryside were built with a wall oven which generally consisted of
a circular domed cavity reached by a small rectangular opening; from
their shape they are sometimes described as 'beehive ovens'.  Faggots
were burned inside the oven to heat the masonry or brick lining, then the
embers were carefully spread around the floor to ensure it was heated
evenly before being raked out.            ...  In Cornwall, northern
England, Wales, Ireland and Scotland the three-legged cauldron was
inverted over the item to be baked and hot embers piled up around the
outside.  ...

Mistress Christianna MacGrain, OP, Meridies

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:46:37 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: Re: SC - Stoves and ovens

Mistress Christianna,

Thanks for your references to stoves and ovens.  I haven't read that one.
 Have been looking at

Hagen, Ann.  A Handbook of Anglo-Saxon Food, Processing and Consumption.
Anglo-Saxon     Books, Middlesex, UK, 1992. Hagen, Ann. A HANDBOOK OF
ANGLO-SAXON FOOD. Processing and   Consumption. Anglo-Saxon Books,
Nisslwawx, England. 1992.

She says the same thing about cauldrons and kettles.  She also adds
eathenware: " Upright pierced lugs on the rims of bowls and horizontal
pierced lugs on the shoulders of some of the smaller pots indicate these
were for suspension over a fire, and therefore for cooking..   ...Good
quality pots which were more heat-resistent were imported from
widely-spaced centres across northern Belgium and France and Germany into
such ports as Hamwih." p. 37.

She also mentions cooking in leather vessels, which were made by the
shoemaker; griddles, hot stones to serve as griddles, spits, a shallow
pan for frying.  Meat was baked, as well as bread. The most common
method, for most people, was the on-going stew in one cauldron.  Carrots
are one of the vegetables that appear as used in Anglo-Saxon times, also
parsnips and skirrets.  Herbs, barley, onions are also linked with stews.
If the peasant has one pot, and his meat and broth are in it, and he
cooks other things as well, it says 'stew' to me.  Exact and specific
recipes are terrific to have, but I really don't think you can say they
didn't do stew as we know stew (minus the potatoes) because we don't have
a recipe.  Judgement call, I know.

Lady Allison

Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:53:17 -0500
From: a14h at zebra.net (William Seibert)
Subject: Re: SC - Mulling recipes

If it helps, I seem to recall seeing in a museum somewhere what
was called a mulling iron.  Was an iron cylender about 2 or 3
inches in diameter about 3 or 4 inches long, with a long, slender
iron handle about half inch in diameter with wooden hand grip.
Apparently the thing was kept in the fire, and then dipped in a
mug of wine or whatever immediately prior to serving.  Don't
recall what period it was tho, sorry.

Wajdi

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 07:58:32 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: Re: SC - Re: seeking recipes (Outdoor Feast)

Anne-Marie wrote,

> I certainly
>havent seen any flat lidded pots in the Museum collections, primary sources
>and other stuff I've been looking at. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong,
>but all the pots I've seen are the cauldron shape, with nicely domed lids
>(tricky to stack coals on) and a round bottom (tricky to control the heat
>on underneath).

This has bothered me for a while because some of the German sources
recommend placing hot coals both underneath and on top of the pot while it
cooks. Instead of doing all of the cooking in the fireplace, kitchens in
German-speaking Europe had a hearth raised about waist high where cooking
was done in pans placed on tripods or in pots or pans with three feet.
Coals could be added or removed from underneath to adjust the heat.

But most of the woodcuts show people cooking with uncovered pots and pans.
There are a few picture that look like the lids might be flat with handles,
rather than domed, but they never show coals on top. The pans and some of
the pots are flat bottomed with staight sides, not cauldron-shaped. There
are round bottomed cooking containers in both metal and clay, but they
aren't the only shape.

Recently I got a copy of Hofrichter and Grassnick's Deutsche historiche
Buergerhaeuser (German historical city houses) that shows the Albrecht
Durer's restored kitchen in Nuremberg. Great picture of the kitchen with a
metal pot on the hearth with a flat lid - no handle on the top. This could
easily have had coals placed on top as rcommended in the 16th recipes. No
rim around the edge, like a dutch oven, though.

Valoise

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 15:13:07 -0500
From: allilyn at juno.com (LYN M PARKINSON)
Subject: SC - Re: pot pictures

One of my German cookbooks is illustrated with woodcuts  Mostly, they are
16thC, but some as early as 1502.  One of the pot lids is a little like a
hat, in that there is a raised 'crown', slightly indented, and the 'brim'
is curved as much as a ring mold.  The only use I can see would be to
hold the coals.  There are a number of legged items.  There are also pots
without domed lids, but I bet they turned the domed ones over, as was
suggested.

I don't know whether this book ever appeared in English translation.  If
you'd rather try to find it through InterLibrary Loan, here is the info:
(and if you do find it in English, would you let me know, please)

Fahrenkamp, H. Jurgen.  Wie man eyn teutsches Mannsbild bey Krafften
halt.  (in German).  Prisma Verlag. Munchen or Gutersloh,  1986.  ISBN 3
570 09730 7

Allison

Date: Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:50:13 -0400
From: Bonne <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: seeking recipes (Outdoor Feast)

> Recently I got a copy of Hofrichter and Grassnick's Deutsche historiche
> Buergerhaeuser (German historical city houses) that shows the Albrecht
> Durer's restored kitchen in Nuremberg. Great picture of the kitchen with a
> metal pot on the hearth with a flat lid - no handle on the top. This could
> easily have had coals placed on top as rcommended in the 16th recipes. No
> rim around the edge, like a dutch oven, though.
>
> Valoise

Might these "Deutsch" cooking pots be the precursor to what we call "dutch"
ovens? The idea of the rim and handy loop handle and handle jack coming later?
 Sounds like the german cooks were leaps ahead of the rest, how clever to
raise the hearth up so the cook could stand to work instead of bending.

To the person using a griddle and metal pan to imitate a baking cloche, King
Arthur Flour Co catalog has a smallish cloche that fits on a baking stone.
Williams Sonoma sells these also. They are small enough to fit in a regular
oven, you might be trying to make something larger. So, brainstorming for
cheaper and bigger, I come up with:

a very large terra cotta pot instead of the metal bowl on top,

on the bottom, placing coals in a shallow terra cotta dish slightly smaller in
diameter than the metal griddle, and deep enough that the rim of the dish
keeps the griddle from direct contact with the coals. The shallow dish sitting
amoungst more coals.

Bonne

Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 14:02:27 -0400
From: renfrow at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: Re: medieval cooking setup

>Hi all from Anne-Marie
<snip>
>This means that we're looking really closely and hard at all kinds of
>things, both manuscript illuminations and at the museum catelogs and
>inventories (I sooooooo hope that Museum of London book on kitchen stuff
>comes out!).
<snip>

Hello!  please check out http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food.html , where Greg
& I have posted numerous illustrations of kitchen utensils, etc.

Cindy Renfrow
renfrow at skylands.net

Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 17:29:17 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - tripods, and the like.

Hiya from Anne-Marie
Bogdan asks:
> I know that I have read through some old discussions on tripods (and I am
> sure Stefan will refer me to a file), but I have an offer for a free
> tripod, made to my specifications, and I would love some advice. Ideally,
> if you know of period pictures of tripods I would appreciate it.  I saw
> the one in Take a thousand eggs or more, and it looks tempting with all of
> the hooks running down the legs, but I don't want to limit myself.  I
> figure if my brother wants to do some smithing work for me as a trial of
> his new forge, who am I to turn him down???

The reading I've been doing for 14-15th century Europe says they used those
cool hooky things, but they aren't tripods, they're "dipods" :), ie a set
up like a modern swing set. They also got setups where a metal bit (or
wood?) is stuck into the ground on each side and a cross piece is suspended
between them over the fire to hang the pots from.

Neither of these is the standard SCA-blackpowder group tripod gizmo. Still
havent seen an appropriate one of those in the primary source material.

- --AM

Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:59:11 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - tripods, and the like.

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998, William Seibert wrote:
> I recall seeing, somewhere on the web, in a list of Viking grave
> goods, a cooking tripod.  Unfortunately, I can't recall where it
> was I found it.  But, it WAS there.  Hope that helps narrow down
> the search for documentation on the tripod for cooking questions
> a tad.

Oseberg, IIRC. It was fairly low, made from wrought iron, and had a
large pot (lamellar iron).

/UlfR

Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 18:33:35 +1000 (EST)
From: Charles McCathieNevile <charlesn at sunrise.srl.rmit.edu.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Sealing a Cauldron

I made a cauldron myself from mild steel, and used the porridge method to
seal it - for the first few feasts it needed to have the water constantly
topped up, but now it is perfect.

I recall a long and technical discussion on the OldNorseNet about what
was and wasn't 'wrought iron'. So if it is something that can be welded
at red heat it would e a nice thing to be able to use. My cauldron was in
fact worked cold. Ockham's razor (not always a good historical test)
would suggest that the porridge method would be a lot easier than going
to the extra trouble of working inside a red-hot object, which is
actually quite difficult. THe first time I made one I bent all the pieces
into shape, and then rivetted it, which was very difficult. The second
time I rivetted the centres together (I did not have bottom pieces), then
bent and rivetted as I went, which made life _MUCH_ simpler.

Charles Ragnar

Date: Thu, 15 Oct 98 00:30:49 -0500
From: Dottie Elliott <difirenze at usa.net>
Subject: Re: SC - feastware question

>I just got through looking at a site that has beautiful late anglo-saxon
>reproduction pottery on it.

If this is a web site, I would love to see the address.

As someone who has been studying medieval pottery (and learning to make
pottery) for a while now I will try to answer this. First of all, our
knowledge of the middle ages is based on what archeologist have found,
and drawings, paintings and writings or the period. Its my opinon that
its impossible to tell from an illuminated manuscript or painting whether
an item is metal, pottery or wood. Plates in England aren't found until
the late fifteen hundreds and those were square and made of wood. Now,
they did have silver plates before that. It was an ostentatious show of
wealth and was used as such. Often such plates (and even the more
beautiful pottery) was displayed during feasts rather than used as
another show of wealth (you have so much you don't need to use it all).

Most of the pottery that survives from England are pots, jugs, pitchers,
pans and later cups, bowls and so on.  Pottery in England in the 10th &
11th centuries was mostly rather simple (well compared to Italy). It was
crudely made and decorated possibly not all. Pottery was mostly very
functional. Cups of the time are mostly wood (bowls) or metal. Things got
better as time went on. I have read that the pottery industry in England
collapsed when Rome withdrew and that explains why their pottery was crude
early on. Certainly, it was not nearly as finished looking nor as highly
decorated as Italy's pottery.

Also, let me say that of the cups, bowls and plates I am making, plates
are the hardest. You must be careful to leave enough clay for the bottom
to be able to use the item but if you leave too much it will warp on
drying and be too heavy. My teacher agress that they are one of the
harder items to make.

Its my personal opinion that poorer folks used simple wood bowls in their
own homes because they would have been eating bread (not using it as a
plate and throwing/giving it away). This was something they could make
themselves as well. Wood doesn't break as easily as pottery either.

Please also remember that at feasts folks shared food containers.  How
many people you might share with depended on your social rank.  The type
of bread and amount and type of food was dictated by this as well.  The
trencher was a place to put your portion that you removed from a communal
bowl. There is a whole realm of ettiquette on how to share food (like its
bad manners to eat the trencher), share cups, etc. Its my opinion that
when serving large groups of people, bread trenchers were the only way to
give that many folks their own 'plate'.

I started learning about pottery with the single intent of making period
looking items for displaying my food in A&S contests. I was sadly
disappointed to find that for England and France, bread trenchers are
what I must use. For Italy, at least, I can do plates & bowls.

Clarissa

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 08:36:33 -0500
From: Melanie Wilson <MelanieWilson at compuserve.com>
To: LIST SCA arts <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Cast Iron cookware/cheese making etc

I was sent this might be of interest ?

As for cast iron cookery, if you haven't discovered
Lehman's yet, it is a wonderful resource for non-
electric cooking items. It is an Amish/Mennonite
company in Ohio that carries everything you could
possibly need cast-iron wise. Also, Cheese-making,
butter churning, buggy-repairing, etc. These aren't antiques, 
but new items.  I understand they're having a blow-out
year due to the whole Y2K anxiety and are back ordered
on all their wood burning stoves, fireplaces, canning
jars, etc.  They can't be *that* Amish, though, since they
have a web page.  From that, you can order their catalog
which I highly recommend.  It's large and filled with all sorts
of old-fashioned stuff that's hard to find anywhere else.

http://www.Lehmans.com/

Mel

Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 10:09:44 -0700
From: Curtis & Mary <ladymari at cybertrails.com>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Whisks

> Does anyone out there know if whisks had been invented by the mid
> sixteenth century?  I am getting ready to make egg tempera paints and I
> know that it is vital to whip the white very well (a spoon will not do).

I beleive they used a twig or stick with the end split multiple times to
make a whisk.

Mairi, Atenveldt

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:04:27 EST
From: Gerekr at aol.com
Subject: Re:  SC - Cookout at Egils

>From:  stefan at texas.net (Stefan li Rous)
>Meistari Gerekr mentioned:
>> Ravensgard will be providing a variety of equipment including
>> cauldrons of various sizes, footed pots, tripod, brazier, portable
>> hearth, spit, norse frying pans, Dutch ovens, etc.  We may have a pit
>> fire also.
>
>Wish I was close enough to see this. I few questions if you don't mind:
>1) What is this portable hearth? I can imagine a big pile of rocks or
>   bricks, but I that wouldn't be very portable.
>2) How does a norse frying pan differ from any other frying pan? Was
>   it really used by the Norse? I was thinking Viking. Maybe you just
>   mean by modern Norse?

1) Portable hearth - like Bear is building in his back-yard, eh?  A
bread/bake oven of bricks, finished with plaster or something... on a
trailer/wagon/cart or some such; the
build-the-fire-inside,-scrape-it-out-after-the-oven-is-heated type...  I
also have the file somewhere from the gentle in the West who's been
researching this... subject came up here last summer, and earlier, I
think.

2) Norse frying pan.  No, I mean period-- my husband dislikes the term
"viking" with its horned-helmed-drunk connotations, so we use "Norse" for
almost everything.

About 5 have been excavated, that we know of.  Color photo p. 142,
catalog entry #63 in _From Viking to Crusader_ - with measurements.
Drawings in Treckare (shudder), p. 180.  References in Roesdahl's _Viking
Denmark_.

Gerek used the dimensions from the one in Viking/Crusader, says it's the
most complete, and simplest one he's seen.  Handle 36", 1/2" square
stock.  "Pan" is an 11" circle of about 16 g. mild steel (educated guess,
from what we can tell about the excavated ones; also the heaviest gauge
our Beverly shear will cut); the edge is dished up about 1/4".  Connected
to the handle with a central rivet.  We don't know if the pan was
supposed to rotate around the rivet, ours mostly does't, and G says based
on the size of the rivet-head on the excavated ones, probably not.

We've cooked bacon, sausages and pancakes over a fire in camp, with very
good results.

3) We'll see how it goes, maybe post pics after the fact next summer,
8-).  If we do, will notify the list.

Chimene & Gerek

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:52:23 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Pipkins are?

> There seems to be no translation of the word 'Pipkin'. Is it a young
>rabbit ( an alternative, like the word 'coney'); is it a specific stewing
>pot; or might it be an apple, as in a Pipkin (variety)? Anyone happen to
>know this one?

It refers to the pot. A pipkin was a smallish stewing pot, either metal or
earthenware.

Nanna

Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 09:55:37 -0400
From: Wade Hutchison <whutchis at bucknell.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Pipkins are?

><< It refers to the pot. A pipkin was a smallish stewing pot, either metal or
> earthenware.
>
> Nanna >>
>
>Interesting. I wonder if these pots were originally used to stew apples or if
>the apples took their name from the pot. Does anuone know?
>
>Ras

I agree with Nanna that it (probaby) refers to the pot.  A pipkin is a
roundish, usually pottery, pot, often with three legs to steady it over
the fire and a short, thick handle.   I would guess that because it is
round in shape, it could _look_ like an apple.  Didn't we determine
lately that everything that's round was called an apple of some sort?
I would think the pipkin name transferred from the pot to the fruit at 
some point.
        -----wade/Gille

Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:51:03 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Pipkins are?

> Interesting. I wonder if these pots were originally used to stew apples or if
> the apples took their name from the pot. Does anuone know?
>
> Ras

A possible derivation is from pipe which describes a cask (or more
generically, a container) holding 126 gallons.  A pipkin (pip(e) - kin)
would be a container smaller than a pipe.

Bear

Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:32:09 -0000
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: SC - Toasting salamander.

Speaking of toasting, I got to see an interesting piece of kitchen equipment
in action on TV this weekend. The BBC did a docu on Hampton Court Palace,
including a brief piece showing re-enactors in the kitchen. They showed a
'salamander', basically a flat iron disk with a very long handle, which was
shoved in the coals to heat up, and then used mostly to heat cheese on top
of bread. A medieval toastie maker the housekeeper said (erm, yes, well...).
I'm not sure how accurate this is, as I didn't agree with some of the other
stuff they said about food of the time. Has anyone seen pictures of this
equipment in use?

Lucretzia
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Lady Lucrezia-Isabella di Freccia   |  mka Tina Nevin
Thamesreach Shire, The Isles, Drachenwald | London, UK

Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 11:53:18 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Toasting salamander.

Christina Nevin wrote:
> Speaking of toasting, I got to see an interesting piece of kitchen equipment
> in action on TV this weekend. The BBC did a docu on Hampton Court Palace,
> including a brief piece showing re-enactors in the kitchen. They showed a
> 'salamander', basically a flat iron disk with a very long handle, which was
> shoved in the coals to heat up, and then used mostly to heat cheese on top
> of bread. A medieval toastie maker the housekeeper said (erm, yes, well...).
> I'm not sure how accurate this is, as I didn't agree with some of the other
> stuff they said about food of the time. Has anyone seen pictures of this
> equipment in use?

Not in use, no, but I seem to recall seeing recipes for things like
Cambridge Burnt Cream (a.k.a. Creme Brulee) which describe getting the
salsmander red hot and holding it close to the surface of the sugared
cream, and moving it around a bit to get an even brown.

This all has to do with the fact that it was impossible, until the
advent of gas ovens with broilers, to get radiant heat directly on _top_
of foods (with possible exceptions like tandoor ovens), without a
heat-transferring "middleman" like the red-hot salamander.

As for toasted cheese being made with a salamander, I believe this
practice post-dates period, probably coming into being in the 18th-19th
centuries when things like Mornay Sauce(more or less cheesy bechamel)
became common, and thse sauces were and are frequently glazed under a
broiler or salamander.

There are descriptions of cheese being toasted in England and Wales, as
I recall, in late or early-post-period (perhaps Harrison's "Description
of England"???) and the process generally involves roasting the cheese
on an inclined board propped up near the fire: when the butterfat leaked
out enough to cause the cheese slice to begin to slide down the board,
by which time it was also brown and bubbly, it was quickly transferred
onto buttered (and sometimes mustarded) toast. I believe I've seen this
in Wilson's "Food and Drink in Britain".

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 09:28:04 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - medieval graters?

And it came to pass on 8 Dec 99,, that Stefan li Rous wrote:
> I think we have
> plenty of proof of period knives and mortars. Do we really have proof of
> graters being used in period? They would be easy to make, but so are
> sandwiches. So any proof folks?

I know of two pieces of textual proof.  De Nola (1529) mentions a
cheese grater (rallo de queso) in one recipe.  And graters appear in
Chiquart's list (1420) of necessary kitchen equipment.  I have Mistress
Elizabeth's translation, but not the French original, so I do not know
what the original term is.

> What did they look like? Single plates of
> metal with holes punched in them?

I think at least some of them must have been.  The recipe from de Nola
that calls for a grater is for a kind of cheese dumpling.  The dough is to
be forced through the holes on the reverse side of grater, and allowed to
fall into boiling water.  You can't really do that with a box grater.

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:33:20 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - copper cauldron?

>    I'd like to buy a large copper pot, the bigger the
>better.  Does anybody have a suggestion on where to look
>online or in a store for such a beast?

I don't know if they have one but try the catalog for "The Cumberland
General Store" I know that they stock some pretty huge iron pots.  You can
probably pick it up at Books a Million in the periodicals section.  Try also
sources that provide dye supplies for traditional fabrics as copper is, if I
am not mistaken, used as a mordant thus using a copper pot means that you
don't have to add it.

Daniel Raoul

Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 21:10:50 EST
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - copper cauldron?

phelpsd at gate.net writes:
> I don't know if they have one but try the catalog for "The Cumberland
>  General Store" I know that they stock some pretty huge iron pots.  You can
>  probably pick it up at Books a Million in the periodicals section. 

Or you can look online or request a catalog at : 
http://www.cumberlandgeneral.com/ 

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:20:45 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Bread things

Stefan li Rous wrote: 
> Marian said:
> > [1] The grocery store didn't have any rolling pins for sale and I'm in the
> > process of starting a brand new kitchen so didn't have one . . . the wine 
> > bottle worked pretty well.
> 
> Hmm. Were rolling pins a period kitchen instrument? It would seem to be
> very likely, but I can't remember seeing any pictures.

I seem to recall seeing several 14th-century English recipes calling for
the cook to drive a paste as broad and as thin as he may, or words to
that effect. Now, considering that when making a pie shell, these
recipes also speak of raising a coffin, I guess the _possibility_ exists
that some type of mallet is used (ask the armorers, folks!). Possibly
something along the lines of those flat little mattock-looking thingies
the butcher uses to pound cutlets. The fact that beaten biscuits are
made with a hammer not long after period would suggest it as a
possibility, too.
  
That said...I could be wrong, but I do think at least some of the above
recipes that call for driving the paste abroad do specify using a
rolling pin of some kind -- especially the later ones. The early
post-period sources such as Markham and Plat almost certainly do.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 22:37:59 -0800
From: "James F. Johnson" <seumas at mind.net>
Subject: Re: SC - A funny thing happened to me in the cooking store...

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Oh! Until you said this I didn't realize there could be a different
> shape than what I've seen here, the cylinder with a handle on each
> end. Does this French style have handles on both ends with a cylinder
> tapering from a larger to smaller circle? It would seem to roll in
> a circle rather than straight in that case. Or is it wider around in
> the middle than the ends, like a wooden barrel? Or it a cone with
> only one handle?

French style rolling pins tend to be longer, about 24"/60cm, and
thinner. They are about 2-3"/5-7cm in the center, and taper to both
ends, say 3-4cm (1 1/2"). Single solid piece of wood, no handles fixed
or moving, with the ends cut flat. It does roll in a wide circle, left
or right, but IIRC, the middle third or so is actually cylindrical with
the 'handles' being the gradual tapers. The tapering keeps the 'handle'
part of the pin from contacting the pastry. You don't grap the handles,
just roll it under your open palms, like kids making clay snakes. And
you can manipulate the dough left or right by shifting weight to one
side or the other and rolling on a curve. The tapered ends make it
really easy to handle just with the open hands. If it was a straight
cylinder, your hands would tend to slide sideways if you tried to push
that way while rolling.

I much prefer to handle my pins with my open hands. The pin I have that
had that rolling handle, I just took the handle off (two wooden handles
on a metal axle). My mom had a pastry roller that had two small rollers
joined my a metal handle between two "Y" yokes. One was about 5 inches
by 1.5 inches and cylindrical, the other was only 3 inches wide, a
little wider than the other roller, and looked like a slightly elongated
barrel. The barrel shape was great for rolling dough into a pan and
moving it around.

Seumas

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 09:15:39 SAST-2
From: "Jessica Tiffin" <jessica at beattie.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - Re: rolling pins

Seumas said:
> I stopped in one of the local cooking stores this evening, just to
> browse, drool, dream, plot, and contemplate. They had some new rolling
> pins. Very simple design, long and thin, with no handles (neither the
> thicker, shorter US style with handles, nor the long, thin tapered
> French style I also know). Hardwood about 3cm x 50cm.  Made in eastern
> Europe. Had a real nice feel and balance. Wackable.

This is the _best_ shape for a rolling pin!  I have two which are 
actually granite drill-cores, swiped for me by my mother and her 
significant other from a dam construction site somewhere in rural 
Zimbabwe... :>  They're solid stone cylinders about 3cm in diameter, 
with pretty patterns because it's granite, and come in lengths up to 
several metres... (mine are about 40-50cm).  They heft nicely in the 
hand for the threatening of kitchen perpetrators, and you can chill 
them for temperamental pastry work.  (The big secret is not to let 
members of the household use them for mock rapier battles - the 
granite breaks quite easily if you tap the pins together more than 
very lightly...)

yrs in comparative rolling-pin anthropology,
Jehanne
Lady Jehanne de Huguenin  *  Seneschal, Shire of Adamastor, Cape Town
(Jessica Tiffin, University of Cape Town)

Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:08:04 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - A funny thing happened to me in the cooking store...

Stefan li Rous wrote: 
> Seumas said:
> >  They had some new rolling
> > pins. Very simple design, long and thin, with no handles (neither the
> > thicker, shorter US style with handles, nor the long, thin tapered
> > French style I also know).
> 
> Oh! Until you said this I didn't realize there could be a different
> shape than what I've seen here, the cylinder with a handle on each
> end. Does this French style have handles on both ends with a cylinder
> tapering from a larger to smaller circle? It would seem to roll in
> a circle rather than straight in that case. Or is it wider around in
> the middle than the ends, like a wooden barrel?

Yes. Think of a [American] football stretched out to about two feet long
with a commensurate loss of circumference (all right, that was a bit
much even for me). Roughly two feet long, about an inch in diameter at
the ends, maybe 2.5 inches in the middle, with a smooth, curved taper.
Like, as you say, a barrel.

> So Adamantius, you said you had seen some post-period rolling pins,
> what shape were they? Makes my original question of period rolling
> pins even more interesting.

No, what I've seen are post-period recipes that use them. The basic form
for the older ones I've actually seen tends to be a simple wooden dowel
about two feet long and 2-3 inches (5-7.5 cm.) in diameter. As with the
French chef's knife, the design which tapers on a curve takes the place
of a number of differently-sized tools for different jobs. Some rolling
pins for small items where you want to avoid a lot of gluten development
in the rolling process, such as various filled pastas, wheat flour
tortillas, etc., use a small rolling pin that resembles a 6-inch length
of broomstick. With the French tapered sort, you can do those jobs by
rolling near the tip.

Now if only French chefs had invented half the other things they claim
they did... 

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 23:01:57 -0600 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Traps?

>      So here I am, reading a recipe for a tart, and trying to
> redact it, when I see it says, "Take a crust ynche depe in a
> trap." So I say to myself, "Self, what exactly is a trap?"  I
> checked out some other recipes, and noticed that they referred
> to it as well..."and bake it in a trap."  Now as I am sitting
> here, I'm wondering...was the trap the crust of the tart, and
> does it therefor have a top on it? (Seeing as the filling would
> be "trapped" inside.)  Or is it the vessel it was cooked in, as
> in a dutch oven? (Where coals are put under, around and over and
> the tart would be "trapped" in that.)  
> 
>      So I ask you all, which is it?  The vessel, or the crust? 
> Or is it even something completely different than that?
>   
>        Elisabeth

A trap or trappe is a baking vessel.  Many of the wood cuts show straight,
high walled dishes similar to a modern casserole dish.  

Most medieval ovens were of the heat-mass type, where a fire was built
inside to heat the mass of the oven, then removed and the bake goods placed
inside to be baked by the heat radiating from the oven.  Otherwise, a cloche
or a baking pot (similar to the Dutch oven) would probably have been used
with the coals heaped around it.

Bear

Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 01:45:02 PST
From: "Linda Taylor" <lmt_inpnw at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - Cooking Equipment in Scappi

I was looking through the illustrations of kitchen equipment and kitchen 
scenes from Bartolomeo Scappi's book _Opera, Dell'Arte del Cucinare_ 1570, 
as reproduced in the 1996 edition of Elizabeth David's _Italian Food_. Wow! 
Lots of drawings of pans, cauldrons, ladles, knives, griddles, and some 
folks at work in their kitchens. Among the things shown are people rolling 
out pasta (on a table labelled _tavola da pasta_) with a rolling pin, which 
appears to be an untapered cylinder about 16-18 inches long and 1-1/2 to 2 
inches in diameter. Also, I remember someone asked about graters a while 
back - in the utensils section there is an item labelled _gratta casio_, 
cheese grater. It is a flat square plate marked all over with dots - I can't 
tell whether they are supposed to be holes punched through or something 
else, the picture is very small. It has a leg attached to the back to keep 
it propped up, which tells us something about the way it was used.

There is too much here to try to describe it all at once, but I'll be happy 
to try if anyone wants to ask about anything in particular.

BTW, does anyone know whether the whole Scappi manuscript is out there 
somewhere? How many pages of pictures does it have in all? I have 6 pages of 
kitchen scenes and 7 of cooking equipment. I don't have any text other than 
the captions in the pictures.

Morwyn of Wye, O.L.
Barony of Three Mountains, An Tir

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:56:18 EST
From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Aluminum Dutch Ovens

	Here is a link for Aluminum Dutch Ovens. Look near the bottom of
the page.

http://www.chuckwagonsupply.com/catpage4.html

Korrin S. DaArdain
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:44:21 -0600
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Iron dutch ovens (was Re: SC - Aluminum Dutch Ovens)

Our local Costco has a great deal on a collection of cast iron 
cookware, including a big dutch oven and several other pieces, for a 
total of about forty dollars. I don't know if it is available 
elsewhere or not.
David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 11:29:50 +0100 
From: Christina Nevin <cnevin at caci.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SC - How do I get started?

	You asked: [1] Anyone who knows anything about how kitchen knives
looked in period?

Take a look here:
http://www.historicenterprises.com/swanlion/
Their custom knives are to drool over...

Ciao,
Lucretzia

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 13:13:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Par Leijonhufvud <parlei at algonet.se>
Subject: Re: SC - How do I get started?

On Wed, 5 Apr 2000, Christina Nevin wrote:
> http://www.historicenterprises.com/swanlion/
> Their custom knives are to drool over...

But they don't tell you if there are any documentation for the cooking
knives (the ones found under new). I'd be tempted to order the large
cooking knife if there was a shred of documentation to go with it. The
set looked special, but the appeared to have at least some documentation
for it (they gave a period at least). 

/UlfR

Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2000 10:43:03 -0600 
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - seed cake from Tusser

> My grandmother used to use the term hoop pan for a spring form....dunno if
> that is what the recipe means, though.
> 
> Diana d'Avignon
>  
> > What exactly is a "Hoop"? Is it like a modern cake pan? Or is it simply
> > a loop/hoop with no bottom?

A period cake hoop was usually a thin band of willow of appropriate width
with the ends joined by a loop so the diameter can be changed.  It was
soaked in water before use to keep it from burning.  It was used to keep a
soft dough in a circular shape during baking.  It is not used with batter
cakes.  Modern hoops are usually made from stainless steel.

More common these days is the springform pan which is a hoop with a rabbet
to fit around a solid bottom and a spring clamp to lock the hoop solidly in
place.

Bear    

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:27:10 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - How do I get started?

cnevin at caci.co.uk writes:
<< You asked: [1] Anyone who knows anything about how kitchen knives
 looked in period? >>

I ordered 2 small knives and one big knife from these folks at Pennsic last 
year. They do hold their edge and I am fascinated at how well they work 
compared to modern knives. One of the smaller knives did have a flaw in it 
but that is easily repaired. 

I love my set and use it instead of my old new knives every day.

Ras

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:29:16 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - How do I get started?

parlei at algonet.se writes:
<< But they don't tell you if there are any documentation for the cooking
 knives (the ones found under new). I'd be tempted to order the large
 cooking knife if there was a shred of documentation to go with it. >>

The set I got was an Elizabethan style. Documentation was provided at the 
Pennsic merchant set-up. The only deviation appears to be the lack of a guard 
piece between the handle and the blade.

Ras

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:39:52 -0400
From: "Beth Morris" <bmorris at iamdigex.net>
Subject: Re: SC - How do I get started?

cnevin at caci.co.uk writes:
><< You asked: [1] Anyone who knows anything about how kitchen knives
> looked in period? >>
>
>I ordered 2 small knives and one big knife from these folks at Pennsic last
>year. They do hold their edge and I am fascinated at how well they work
>compared to modern knives. One of the smaller knives did have a flaw in it
>but that is easily repaired.

There are lots of illuminations of cooks in kitchens with knives (especially
the Luttrell Psalter, etc.) - look for the little margin illus.  Also try
the Tac. Sanitatis (Medieval Health Handbook) for kitchen shots....

Keilyn

Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 09:07:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: Jeff Heilveil <heilveil at uiuc.edu>
Subject: SC - re: dutch ovens

<snip>
Balthazar of Blackmoor
(who also needs a good dutch oven...mine snapped in half about two months
ago during a particularly busy weekend)
- ---
Salut!
I remember that there was a discussion a LONG while back (a year or three)
ago about dutch ovens.  While reading my bedtime allotment of Platina, I
came acruss a bit about dutch ovens.  In the White Pie recipe (I think
it's book VI, but I don't recall off the top of my head), Platina mentions
putting coals on top of the lid to help brown the pie.  

Bogdan de la Brasov
_______________________________________________________________________________
Jeffrey Heilveil M.S.		      Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.

Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 16:38:47 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: SC - [Fwd: Cauldrons...information, please?]

Below is a message I received from Master Finnr regarding the
availability, cost and shipping information for the cauldrons that I
spoke of in an earlier post.

If you wish to get in touch with Master Finnr to order these cauldrons,
his e-mail address is "jamesahowell at juno.com".

Kiri

From: jamesahowell at juno.com
To: ekoogler at chesapeake.net
Date: Wed, 17 May 2000 13:12:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Cauldrons...information, please?

> I told the folks on the SCA Cooks List about your cauldrons, and have
> had several folks who would like ordering information and price lists.
> Can you help me out here?  I'd be deeply grateful!
 
	Oh, gee, twist my arm!

	Here is the deal.  Below I will give my retail cost for the pots.  This
does NOT include shipping.  Shipping will be $7 plus whatever my supplier
tells me for the particular pot and where it is going, the $7 being the
drop ship fee to ship directly to the customer from my supplier.  The
pots are cast iron, round bottom three leg with a lid, fully seasoned.  I
also have a smaller range of flat bottom-no leg and dutch oven styles. 
Since they are made in South Africa, the sizes are in imperial gallons,
which is slightly smaller than a U.S. gallon.  The largest size, 25
gallon, cannot be shipped UPS (it weighs 157 pounds) and must be shipped
common carrier, so it's going to be expensive on the shipping.

1/4 gallon	.7 quarts	3.1 lbs.		$27
1/2 gallon	1.3 quarts	5.9 lbs.		$30
3/4 gallon	2.9 quarts	7.5 lbs.		$33
1 gallon		3.2 quarts	11.4 lbs.		$42
2 gallon		6.4 quarts	19.4 lbs.		$55
3 gallon		8.3 quarts	25.1 lbs.		$62
4 gallon		9.9 quarts	29 lbs.		$86
6 gallon		14.3 quarts	44.7 lbs.		$105
8 gallon		19.6 quarts	46.2 lbs.		$116
10 gallon	29.7 quarts	54.6 lbs.		$150
14 gallon	36.6 quarts	70.2 lbs.		$190
20 gallon	59.7 quarts	104.7 lbs.	$250
25 gallon	74.7 quarts 	156.9 lbs.	$320

	Thanks alot!  I appreciate the good word.  See you at Sapphire Joust!
								Regards, Finnr

Subject: [MedievalEncampments] copper pieces
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:24:49 -0500
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: <MedievalEncampments at egroups.com>

> From: Tanya Guptill [mailto:tguptill at teleport.com]
> I just received a two-gallon copper pot, and I'm interested 
> in using it for a water pot outside my tent.  However, it  has some
>  corrosion on the interior.
> 
> Does anyone have recommendations either for how to thoroughly 
> clean the pot, or to seal it?  I am interested in making it so
> the water inside will be potable, and won't pick up taste from 
> the pot itself, so I am tempted to scrub it out and use some 
> sort of sealant.  Any ideas?

firstly, identify the species ...

look inside, is it coated with another greyish metal?  if so you're
home free, the pot is cooking grade and tinned.  to clean get some
copper scouring powder and nylon abrasive pads and start scouring
(should not damage the tinned layer in any way, it's pretty tough
stuff)

if not, it's a probably a import decorator piece .... next, is it one
piece?  if not are the seams sealed with solder?  if so, chances are
good that this is a lead based solder (all soldering in US that comes
into contact with drinking water is required to be lead free ...). 
if it has soldered seams, don't use it in any way for food or water -
sealed or not.  it isn't worth the risk.   

no seams? ... you're still not home-free in that you have no idea
what the purity/alloy contaminants are in the source copper (just
because we use copper for our drinking water lines does not mean all
copper is alike ... the cheaper the alloy, the more impurities it
tends to carry, and stuff made for the export/tourest trade is often
botton-of-barrel copper or industrial grade stuff you want nowhere
near food or water) ... think nice stuff for your body like lead,
mercury, aresenic, cadmium, beryllium, etc.  

*if* you can identify the copper alloy (all copper has impurities) as
being a safe one, you *should* be OK unless the pot is used for
cooking or acidic liquids (fruit juices are always right out for
copper .. and no tomato sauces in untinned copper cookware).  clean
as above and for peace of mind, you might consider a food-grade
sealant as you initially mentioned .. 

personally, for anything copper or bronze (or pewter .. another but
similar story) of unknown or suspect origin, i would keep it as a
decorator piece that does not come into direct contact with food or
drink ... plus a untinned/sealed copper water holder will give
metallic off-tastes to water (a clue to what has migrated into the
water) and will require regular and frequent internal cleaning.  

it's a personal bias, but my health is important to me and i'm very
particular about the heavy metals and polymers (sealants) i ingest in
my food & drink.  

'wolf     

Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 22:18:24 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: SC - cutlery photos

Hello!  I was recently at Wartburg castle.  They have a collection of
cutlery, some of which dates from the early 1600s.  I've posted some
pictures to http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/photos.html

If anyone is really interested, I have them in higher quality & can email
them to you.

Cindy Renfrow
cindy at thousandeggs.com

Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2000 18:41:54 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - pie and bread pans

> Since clay was available, I wonder why it wasn't used for either
> bread or pie pans? Does cooking bread in a pan have particular
> advantages besides shape and vice-versa, what advantages does
> baking bread without a pan have? Why spend the time and resources
> to make a coffin crust each time you make a pie when a clay container
> would ease that or even eliminate the crust?
> -- 
> Lord Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra
 
There are woodcuts showing trappes being prepared for the oven.  A trappe is
a circular pie pan several inches deep.  The were probably used to prepare
soft crusted pies and casserole type dishes.  Later paintings show fairly
modern tart pans.  And, IIRC, Scappi's Opera has some illustrations of tart
pans.

Bread pans were probably not generally used because the number a
professional baker would need would be expensive and there would be the
additional cost of heating the terra cotta as well as the bread.  Metal pans
are more efficient, but metal pans would be more costly.

With the modern, continuous heat ovens and their open grill racks, bread
pans are an efficient way of loading bread into the oven.  The loaf shape is
efficient in the modern mechanized commercial bakery.

Bear

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 09:14:21 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re:was sweet spinach tart now Roman bread shape

In a message dated 9/22/00 1:26:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bear writes:
> As for loaf pans, some of the bread from Pompeii was obviously formed with a
>  circular pan (probably terra cotta) making heavy indentations for easy
>  seperation.

I envisioned those loaves made from smaller balls of dough put into the 
circular bread pan, rising, then semi-joining before baking. Sorta how we 
make cinnamon rolls. I have yet to actually hold one in my hand to examine 
closely so my comment is observation only.

Hauviette

Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 12:33:46 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - Re:was sweet spinach tart now Roman bread shape

Having seen one of the loaves which had been excavated, the shape is too
even not to have been formed without a mold, probably surrounded by a cake
ring (but I have to admit, I haven't seen evidence as to how the mold was
used).  The shape has a central circle surrounded by trapezoidal segments
similar to the area between the spokes of a wheel. 

Whether separate balls of dough or a single ball of dough were used is an
open question, but the use of separate balls of dough would make the bread
easier to divide.

Bear

> I envisioned those loaves made from smaller balls of dough put into the 
> circular bread pan, rising, then semi-joining before baking. Sorta how we 
> make cinnamon rolls. I have yet to actually hold one in my hand to examine
> 
> closely so my comment is observation only.
> 
> Hauviette

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 11:28:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nisha Martin <nishamartin at yahoo.com>
Subject: SC - period mashed foods

>>>>>>
For mashed foods, what would they have used in a
period kitchen?
A mortar and pestle? Or was there something like our
potato masher?
I'm thinking of something used to mash foods not
something to crush or grind spices. 
<<<<<<

When we were in germany, I got to go to alot of
museums. One of them had a section on cooking
implements. One of these that I remember was a big
wooden verticle mallet type thingy(excuse the
technical terms here :) that was either flat or
slightly curved on one end. The curved ones were used
in bowls like a mortar and pestle, and the flat ones
were used on flat surfaces, supposedly to mash foods.
I'm not sure of the dates, it's been several years, so
they may or may  not have been period. But it was
interesting to say the least. 

Nisha

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 10:11:19 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: SC - Gridirons (was Historic Liver recipes )

> Bear skrev:
> >"Gridirons were a standard piece of equipment in the ancient kitchen
> >(Maritial Epigrams 14.221, Petronius Satyricon 31.11, Apicius On the Art of
> >Cooking 7.2.1, 7.4.2).
> 
> Hey, Bear, do you have any references or pics of an early gridiron? I'm not
> limitting my question to you, either- if ANYBODY has refs to pics or URLs
> regarding Medieval or ancient cooking equipment, I'd be interested in
> seeing them.
> 
> Phlip

I believe there is one depicted in the feast scene of the Bayeux Tapestry.
I know there are gridirons in some of the 16th Century paintings, but I will
have to do some digging.  There may be one in the catalog of the Pompeii,
A.D. 79 exhibit that toured the U.S. 25 or 30 years ago.

The ones I've seen depicted are usually rectangular and are a cross-hatched
frame of iron bars on the order of a barbeque grill.  Some have U-shaped
legs at the ends for support (possibly portable gridirons).

I'll see if I can find the references.

Bear

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 17:52:26 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Gridirons (was Historic Liver recipes )

Vehling's Apicius also has pictures.  The portable craticula (combination
broiler and stove) from Pompeii is particularly interesting.

Jost Amman's The Book of Trades (reprinted by Dover) has some illustrations
too, as does Scappi.

Cindy

Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 21:11:06 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: Historic Liver recipes (was SC - liver )

I have a bunch of them...you can find them in the 1941 Museum of London
Catalogue, as well as the Households book published by the same museum.  There
are both photographs of just about everything you can think of, along with
wonderful line drawings.  I can't remember if there's a grill off the top of my
head, but seem to remember that there is.  If you don't have access to either of
these books, let me know and I'll see if I can find a grill picture and send it
to you.

Kiri

Bear skrev:
>"Gridirons were a standard piece of equipment in the ancient kitchen
>(Maritial Epigrams 14.221, Petronius Satyricon 31.11, Apicius On the Art of
>Cooking 7.2.1, 7.4.2).

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 14:37:55 -0700
From: Valoise Armstrong <varmstro at zipcon.net>
Subject: Re: SC - rosettes? pizelli?

Huette wrote:
> As for period looking rosette irons, the basic six
> petalled rosette iron is stylistically within period,
> but whether it was used for rosettes, I don't know.
> I also have several cup irons that make tart shells
> using the rosette recipe.  I have always thought that
> this could be a period concept.

The last time I looked in a kitchen store all I found were card suits and
butterflies. Not at all what I wanted. I'll try looking on line, since this
might be fun to do for the holidays. A six-petalled rosette would fine.

I have only found one picture of what might be period rosette irons, but the
book doesn't cite a date, so I'm not sure. In Kunstgeschichte des Backwerks,
page 28, there is a photo of three irons. They all have wooden handles and
the iron parts are formed from strips of metal. One is simple in a spiral,
one is like six spokes that have a curl on the end, and the an abstraxt
design with wavy lines. Yea, I know that last description stinks but I'm not
sure how to describe it.

Anyone ever seen rosettes in a period painting?

Valoise

Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2000 13:41:32 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: "Thanksgiving" festivals in Period

Elysant writes:
> troy at asan.com writes: 
>       a beetle is a utensil that appears to have been brought to 
>       Ireland by the Vikings. 
>
> Master A.... 
> 
> Do you have any information on what type of tool this is?  Is it some kind of 
> a masher?

Yes, it's a big mortar with a large, long pestle that can be operated
from a standing position, I believe.

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2000 15:21:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: "Thanksgiving" festivals in Period

> > Do you have any information on what type of tool this is?  Is it some kind 
> > of a masher? 
> Yes, it's a big mortar with a large, long pestle that can be operated
> from a standing position, I believe.

Actually, I think it's a sort of mallet used for bashing things... for
instance, laundry. A mortar & pestle arrangement might be a special case

According ot the OED:

"1. An implement consisting of a heavy weight or ëhead,í usually of wood,
with a handle or stock, used for driving wedges or pegs, ramming down
paving stones, or for crushing, bruising, beating, flattening, or
smoothing, in various industrial and domestic operations, and having
various shapes according to the purpose for which it is used; a mall.
three-man beetle: one that requires three men to lift it, used in ramming
paving-stones, etc."

Some of the quotes: c897 K. ∆LFRED Gregory's Past. xxxvi. 253 N·n monn ne
ehÌerde ne axe hlem ne bÌetles [Cotton bÌtles] swe. a1000 Judith IV. 21
SÈo wÌfman eslÛh mid ·num b˝tle. a1225 Ancr. R. 188 er e schulen iseon
bunsen ham mit tes deofles bettles. a1400 WRIGHT Lat. Stories 29 (M‰tz.)
Wyht suylc a betel be he smyten. c1400 in Wright Voc. 180 Mallus, bytylle.
1413 LYDG. Pylgr. Sowle III. x. (1483) 56 Somme were brayned with betels
and somme beten with staues. c1440 Promp. Parv. 34 Betylle, malleus,
malleolus. c1450 HOLLAND Houlat, He could wark wundaris Mak..A lang spere
of a bittill. 1530 PALSGR. 198/1 Betyll to bete clothes with, battoyr.
1577 B. GOOGE Heresbach's Husb. (1586) 39 Then the bundels [of flax]..are
beaten with betelles. 1589 Pappe w. Hatchet (1844) 7 Make your tongue the
wedge, and your head the beetle. 1597 SHAKES. 2 Hen. IV, I. ii. 255 If I
do, fillop me with a three-man-Beetle. a1626 FLETCHER Wom. Prize II. vi,
Have I lived thus long to be knockt o' th' head With half a washing
beetle? 1639 FULLER Holy War III. xxiv. (1840) 162 To cleaue a tree with a
beetle without a wedge. 1791 HAMILTON Berthollet's Dyeing I. I. II. i. 132
In the fulling mill..it is beaten with large beetles in a trough of water.
1822 SCOTT Pirate I. 128 (Jam.), Out of an honest house, or shame fa' me,
but I'll take the bittle to you! 1845 DE QUINCEY Wks. XII. 73 note, A
beetle is that heavy sort of pestle with which paviours drive home the
paving-stones..sometimes..fitted up by three handles..for the use of three
men.
- -- 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2000 09:06:05 -0000
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
Subject: Re: SC - RE: SC-Thanksgiving/SCA & Europe

>Bring back a tajine. It is a cooking utensil that shows up in the
>Andalusian cookbook and, I am told, is still in use (of course,
>that's assuming the word still has the same meaning, which seems
>plausible but not certain). I gather it is sort of like a frying pan
>with a conical lid, but I don't think I have ever seen one.
>
>If you can't bring one back, bring back pictures.

For a picture of tagines/tajines, click here:
http://www.planetware.ca/photos/MAR/MARTP.HTM

They are still very much in use; tagine is both the name of the cooking pot
and of any dish cooked in it.

Nanna

To: Norsefolk at egroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 20:32:00 -0000
From: "Shara " <shara at 1nol.com>
Subject: Re: project ...

--- In Norsefolk at egroups.com, Kevin McGlynn <k_s_mcglynn at y...> wrote:
>    i just got the idea of a project i'd like to do
> sometime (other than making a spectacled viking helm,
> tho somewhat related) and was wondering if anyone here
> might be able to help.  i'd like to make a norse style
> riveted sheet-iron cauldron.  anyone know any sources
> for researching such things, web or otherwise? 
> pictures, research, how-to articles if anyone knows of
> any.  i actually was thinking of writing one myself
> for TI, or perhaps teaching a classon it or something
> after making it, if there isn't one already out there.
> 
>       seamus 

(asa.wood at excite.com) <please use this address for direct 
letters>     
      About 5/6 years ago, at my request, my lord made me a viking 
cauldron (about 17"dia x 12-14"deep)    for, mostly, lack of previous 
experience in such a project, it turned our lopsided.(straighter on 
one side, more curved on the other)and, though it looked good 
otherwise, it leaked like a sieve.    we figured out where we went 
wrong in the construction, and someday he'll make me another one...
In the meantime, we were determined to solve the leakage problem, 
using some sort of safe and period possible solutions availabe to 
them.    What seemed to most likely, was sea water.  (i.e. the rust 
factor, to seal it with)   alas, we live in the Blue Ridge foothills
the ocean was a bit away, but not impossible.   My lord asked "can't 
we just mix salt in water, and use that??? (No, wouldn't be the same 
thing...how much salt, to how much water? Bewsides, the salt's 
probably different....)   So, being long-years, both, in the sca,(raw 
materials and a need for careful experimentation, being understood 
as "important" ) come spring, we set out on a quest to the coast, in 
search of 'sea water' for our experiments......24 gallons 
worth....and while we, and the cat, were on the beach, anyway, no 
sense wasteing all that neat fine sand, so 6 gallons of that came 
back with us as well.....might be useful for sand-casting 
someday.....)      The sea-water worked, in time.  It literally took 
us weeks of filling the cauldron, letting it sieve into a catch 
container below (we hung the cauldron from a viking tri-pod, made for 
us by Baron Sir Sven) and regularly ladleing the seawater back into 
the pot.  At night, we just left it, for refill til the next morn. 
During rain, we covered it all, to keep the sea water from being 
diluted.  In time, it leaked no more.......time to build a good wood 
fire under it.....we did....the metal expanded, something happened, 
we sprung a leak, and the fire was quenched, by some of the salty 
contents of the pot....back to the drawing board......more salt water 
fill-ups...more time later (yes, I kept careful records, just don't 
have them handy) the leaks stopped, the cauldron boiled sea water
Next, we had to get rid of the salt.  Poured off the sea water, added 
fresh, and started the cycle over, but only by boiling several pots 
of fresh water.    Then we immersed it all in fresh water, to try and 
catch any salt that had leaked into the outer areas, changed that a 
few times, and then hung the pot, upside-down, over the tri-pod, in 
the hot Ga. sun, to let it throughly dry, a couple of days worth, 
then got a fire under it, to drive out any remaining moisture, and 
after coated inside and out, with a good coating of UNsalted lard, 
and heated some more, before putting the pot in storage.    One thing 
we should have done, but found out too late, was we should have 
soaked it in freshwater, longer, with more changes, before the final 
stages...ie. it seems that we didn't get rid of enough of the 
salt...with the expected results....
Shara 

To: Norsefolk at egroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 23:17:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Kevin McGlynn <k_s_mcglynn at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: project ...

--- jamesahowell at juno.com wrote:
>	Contact Darrell Markewitz at Wareham Forge.  He has made a number of the critters......He is known as Master Sylard of Eagleshaven in the Society.
http://www.pipcom.com/wareham_forge/
 						
>		Regards, Finnr 

   cool link!  many thanks!  

     seamus 

Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2001 17:23:19 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd at gate.net>
Subject: Re: SC - chicken on a string

Was written:
<< A while back on this list someone brought up their favorite idea of
how to roast a chicken. Basically it was to hang a chicken by a string
near the fire and twist the string tight. It would then unwind and
start winding up the other direction and then reverse etc until the
motion slowed down. At which time you wind the string up and start
again. >>

Actually I seem to recall seeing an illustration which does this one better.
Above the item to be suspended and thus roasted is placed a curved vane
which extends into the fire's draught.  The vane, by the force of the rising
heat, causes the rope to twist until the vane passes out of the draught.
The rope then unwinds and places the vane back into the draught again.  A
pan is placed under the meat to be roasted to catch the drippings for
basting and sauce.  If anyone can help me track down the illustration I
would be greatly obligated.  I have also considered the construction of a
period clockwork weight driven spit turner.  If anyone has plans or a source
for them it would be appreciated.

Daniel Raoul

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 00:41:55 +0200
From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de
Subject: Re: SC - clockwork spit turner, sort of (was: chicken on a string)

<< I have also considered the construction of a period clockwork weight
driven spit turner. >> (Daniel Phelps)

In one of Scappi's (1570) tavole there is something like a clockwork
construction for a spit turner. See the image at:

http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/scap19b.jpg

The text to the image: "Molinello con tre spedi che si uolta dasse per
forza de ruotte con il tempo afoggia di orologio come nella presente
figura si dimostra". The same picture is later to be found in the
'Trinciante' of Cervio. And there seems also to be mention of such a
machine in Rabelais' 'Gargantua'.

If you are looking for a early handbook of clockwork engineering, try:

J.H. Leopold: The Almanus Manuscript (Staats- und Stadtbibliothek
Augsburg, Codex in 2∞ No. 209, Rome circa 1475-circa 1485). London 1971.

A beautiful book including a facsimile of the manuscript with its
drawings, the Latin text, an English translation, an English
introduction and an English commentary/technical interpretation of the
text. There are weight-driven clocks and spring-driven clocks ...

Thomas

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 08:34:00 -0600
From: Mary Morman <mem.morman at oracle.com>
Subject: SC - clockwork spit

One of the presenters at the Leeds Food Collegium shared with us his
search for an artifact that would prove the Scappi spit illustration was
a real illustration and not a fanciful drawing or an inventor's plan (a
la Leonardo).  He finally did find the actual spit - in a small museum
in either Belgium or the Netherlands - and had photographs of it.
Although it was a little smaller in scale than the Scappi drawing, it
was the, excuse me please, "spitten image".

Elaina

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 18:36:00 +0200
From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de
Subject: Re: SC - clockwork spit

Mary Morman wrote:
<< ... the Scappi spit illustration ... He finally did find the actual
spit - in a small museum in either Belgium or the Netherlands - ...>>

Thank you very much! That's intresting to hear.

I must make a correction to what I said earlier.
<< And there seems also to be mention of such a machine in Rabelais'
'Gargantua'. >>

I was wrong. There is no mention of such a machine in Rabelais. At least
I did not find it in the place I was looking. BUT: it is mentioned in
the German version of Rabelais done by Johann Fischart in 1575 (both
Rabelais and Fischart, who frequently 'expands a bit' on the ideas of
Rabelais, are full of food and drink references):

"Dann er het ... ein Lebendig Pratspiﬂwerck: oder selbsgengig
Pratspiﬂm¸l von 72. Pratspissen erfunden "

roughly: 'Because he had invented a living roasting spit device, an
automatic (self going) roasting spit machine (mill work) with 72.
roasting spits'

Th.

Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2001 23:52:28 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net>
Subject: Re: SC - chicken on a string

Daniel Raoul replied to my message with:
> Was written:
> << A while back on this list someone brought up their favorite idea of
> how to roast a chicken. Basically it was to hang a chicken by a string
> near the fire and twist the string tight. It would then unwind and
> start winding up the other direction and then reverse etc until the
> motion slowed down. At which time you wind the string up and start
> again. >>
> 
> Actually I seem to recall seeing an illustration which does this one better.
> Above the item to be suspended and thus roasted is placed a curved vane
> which extends into the fire's draught.  The vane, by the force of the rising
> heat, causes the rope to twist until the vane passes out of the draught.
> The rope then unwinds and places the vane back into the draught again.  A
> pan is placed under the meat to be roasted to catch the drippings for
> basting and sauce.  If anyone can help me track down the illustration I
> would be greatly obligated.  I have also considered the construction of a
> period clockwork weight driven spit turner.  If anyone has plans or a source
> for them it would be appreciated.

In the paragraph above and just above in the same paragraph I quoted,
C. Anne Wilson mentions two other spits,
"Meat was still spit-roasted. The turnspit boy was replaced in Tudor
times by the turnspit dog..."
and
"A third type was the smoke-jack, worked by a fan fixed into the
chimney and turned by the updraught from the fire. Its main
disadvantage was that a large fire had always to be kept up in order
to produce suficent draught."

Unfortunately, she shows no diagrams of these types of spits.
- -- 
THLord  Stefan li Rous    Barony of Bryn Gwlad    Kingdom of Ansteorra

From: deewolff at aol.comnojunk (DeeWolff)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Date: 11 May 2001 12:57:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Iron Cooking Pot?

http://www.cabelas.com/

I use them all the time...I get my shipments within three days of order.

Andrea

Look under camping, then cooking equipment.

Traditional African Cast Iron Pots  
The cooking favorite in Africa for more than two centuries. The design is
remarkably efficient; three legs keep the belly away from the heat source, and
the perfectly rounded belly lets the heat flow evenly around the sides. Lids
feature a deep lip for holding coals on top for slow-cooking and baking.
Extremely strong, with a very smooth finish. Pre-seasoned, so you can use yours
immediately. 

Size    Girth Size
6.4 qt.
8.3 qt.
14.3 qt.*
30 qt.*
36.5 qt*
60 qt*  10"
11-1/2"
13-1/2"
16-1/2"
17-1/2"
20-1/4"
TRADITIONAL AFRICAN CAST IRON POT 
ITEM: XA-51-2969 
SIZE: 2 GAL \6.4 QT.\, 3 GAL \8.3QT\, 6 GAL \14.3 QT\, 30 QT, 36.5 QT, 20 GAL
\60 QT\ 
PRICE:  $44.99 to $199.99 

-or-
Lodge Dutch Ovens and Cast-Iron Skillets  

(A) Lodge Dutch Ovens â•„ Flat-bottom, rounded-lid style for cooking on stove
or over fire.
Dimensions:
5 quart: 10-1/4" dia., 4" depth
7 quart: 12" dia., 4-3/4" depth
10 quart: 13-1/2" dia., 4-3/4" depth.
(B) Lodge Cast-Iron Skillets â•„ Grandma's fried chicken always tasted better
in her cast iron skillet. No camp or kitchen is complete without one.
Sizes: 9", 12", 10-1/2", 15-1/4", and 20".
Lodge Skillet Covers - 9", 10-1/2", 12", and 15-1/4" available.  

LODGE CAST IRON DUTCH OVEN 
ITEM: XA-51-2567 
MODEL: 5 QT, 7 QT, 9 QT 
PRICE:  $19.99 to $42.99 

LODGE CAST IRON SKILLET 
ITEM: XA-51-0155 
SIZE: 9", 10.5", 12", 15.25", 20" 
PRICE:  $7.99 to $79.99 

LODGE CAST IRON SKILLET COVER ONLY 
ITEM: XA-51-0156 
SIZE: 10.5", 12", 15.25" 
PRICE:  $12.99 to $29.99 

From: wtp at nds10758.cb.lucent.com (Powers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Iron Cooking Pot?
Date: 11 May 2001 13:48:52 GMT
Organization: Lucent Technologies, Columbus Ohio

>Maybe some one into period cooking could help me out her. My father is
>looking for a *large* cast iron cooking pot (looks like a cauldron,
>lol), and is driving my whole family crazy in the process. I'd
>appreciate it if anyone could tell me where to get one. We're in North
>Carolina, but would appreciate any help.

Well cast iron pots didn't show up until the Renaissance...

Anyway how big is big?  You want a lard rendering pot big enough to use
as a hot tub or just something for a mess of beans.

The other sites mentioned are great; just though I would throw another one
out there:  The Cumberland General Store www.cumberlandgeneral.com  now they 
only show cast iron pots up to 3 gallons but they do have some nice footed 
pieces for open fire cooking.

Thomas 
-- 
W.Thomas Powers

From: Ric Koval <ric.koval at mnsu.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Iron Cooking Pot?
Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 09:30:15 -0500
Organization: Minnesota State University, Mankato

Raine Carraway wrote: 
> Maybe some one into period cooking could help me out her. My father is
> looking for a *large* cast iron cooking pot (looks like a cauldron,
> lol), and is driving my whole family crazy in the process. I'd
> appreciate it if anyone could tell me where to get one. We're in North
> Carolina, but would appreciate any help.
> 
> --Raine

Raine,
He may be looking for a "potjie" pronounced "poy-key".  It is a South
African cast iron cooker with 3-4 inch legs built more for open fire
that coals. I have a #3 and love it!!! I do a lot of Dutch Oven cooking
and demos and always look for new and interesting stuff.  The round
bottom is great for saute'ing! Try this sight-   
http://www.actionafrica.com/   They have illustrations and size specs.
You can check with them for a local vendor or I think you can order from
them. (I have no financial interest in said site)...Ric...

I remain, Rychard Dusteyfete, Far-traveled and Near-sighted, at your service
mka: Ric Koval

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
                Location, Location, Location:
                                    Rivenwood Tower, Northshield, Midrealm
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~

From: Etain1263 at aol.com
Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 07:40:46 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pottery for Cooking/Eating
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

stefan at texas.net writes:
<< whereas the pottery
 pots couldn't be. They had to be put on coals? or next tot he fire? >>

As clay (even fired clay) heats...the molecules expand (it's more complex
than that..but "expand" should suffice for here)...and if they expand at
different rates...i.e.: the bottom of the pot (on the heat) and the top (not
on the heat)..the vessel will explode!(or at the very least..crack)   So...no
intense direct heat to any one surface of a pottery vessel!  I would
say..."next to" a fire...not on coals.  (but you could probably bury it in
coals if it were covered!)

Etain inghean Ruaidhri

Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:47:14 -0700
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Anne-Marie Rousseau <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pottery for Cooking/Eating

I routinely use pottery in my period encampment. There is a wonderful local
SCA potter who makes the worlds cutest pipkins (the little three footed
clay pots with handles) and I'm currently "UL testing" one of them for her
(ie being really mean to it...how much can it handle?). You can also buy
extensively field tested pipkins and pots copied from extant examples from
Historic Enterprises online (www.historicenterprises.com).

I've found they work great even directly in the fire if you do the following:
1. make your fire. Let it get to coals.
2. Stick your pipkin right next to the fire
3. after a bit, go ahead and move it in closer if you need to.

the clay is fired under VERY hot temperatures and didnt discomboobleate
then, so it can easily handle the temps from a cooking fire, but introduce
it gradually and let it cool gradually (ie dont drop it super hot into cold
water). I usually end up with mine nestled very happily in the middle of
the glowing coal bed, but only after a gradual introduction. It transmits
and retains heat really well, so you dont usually even need to get it in
the red hot zone!

what would break it, I think, is the sudden shock. Give it time to get used
to the heatn and you should be fine!

--Anne-Marie, who thinks nothings better for camp fondue than a clay pipkin :)

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] how old are kettles?
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 15:51:16 -0500

> I have been trying to find any references to kettles in period, but when
> doing searches on period utensils, I've come up with mostly information
> about forks and cauldrons.
>
> Has anyone seen any information about a kettle type pot?  I realize a tea
> kettle would be out of the question, but I'm sure people heated water for
> other reasons.  It seems to me that it would be a natural development to
> have some sort of spout on a pot used for pouring hot liquids.
>
> Madelina

The primary difference between a kettle and a cauldron is the kettle
commonly has a cover.  The common pouring method would likely be a ladle.
Although I don't think that's what you were looking for.

Bartolomeo Scappi's Opera (1570) provides a look at some of the common
utensils.  The woodcuts are webbed at:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/

The vessels with pouring spouts I have come across all appear to be
decorated serving vessels which would not have been put on the fire and I
don't remember any from within period.

There is a rectangular brazier with what appears to be a built in tank for
heating and dispensing (from a spigot, IIRC) water that was recovered from
Pompeii.  There is a picture of it in the catalog of a Pompeii museum
exhibit which toured the US about 20 years ago.  The exhibit catalog is
entitled, Pompeii -- 79 A.D., and is often available in libraries and used
book stores.  We have a couple copies in our library.

Bear

From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Beer from unsafe water?
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:35:51 -0500 

> Does it actually use the word "kettle"?  I have been looking for
> confirmation that kettles are period.  I specifically would like a source
> that shows a spouted pot meant for heating water or the like
> being placed directly upon the heat source.
>
> Madelina

The word kettle derives from the Latin "catillus" a diminutive of "catinus"
or "large bowl."  It appears in Old English as "cetel" and in Old Norse as
"ketill."  In Middle English it is "ketel."  The definition is, a metal pot,
usually with a lid for boiling or stewing.  It is a synonym for cauldron.

The spouted pot that you are interested in is more properly a teakettle and
seems to appear in the late 17th century.  The timing coincides with the
increased use of tea, which may mean the teakettle was transplanted from
Asia.  You might check Uker's All About Tea, to see if he includes any
history on the teakettle.

The Kettlehouse, a coach house founded in 1640, uses a teakettle on its
sign, but the original sign for the establishment, a huge kettle, was that
of the village blacksmith.  The website does not state whether it was a
cauldron or a teakettle.

http://www.kettlehouse.co.uk/history.htm

A rather nice 18th Century teakettle:
http://www.p4a.com/itemsummary/15702.htm

Bear

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gastronomica - olla article
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:17:25 -0400

In the 14th and 15th century Catalan sources I work with, "olla" is used in
a generic sense to refer to a pot or pan, rather than being an earthenware
vessel of specific shape, as presented in Gastronomica. In fact, "olla",
"paella", "pella" and "cassola" are used interchangeably in some recipes,
and this covers a wide range of size, shape, and materials for these
vessels.

Thomas Longshanks

From: "a5foil" <a5foil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch oven question
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 23:47:39 -0400

> Does anyone have information about or pictures of a device called a "testo"?
>   According to the descriptions I've read, it's a three legged iron pot with
> a thick lid.  You can pile coals around and on top of it so that it
> functions like a small oven.

I saw one in a display of 15th century cooking gear. IIRC, it was at the
Museum of the History of the City of Barcelona. Your description is
accurate. It looked like...a rounded dutch oven with longer legs. A little
less refined. I didn't see any period iron pots with straight sides like a
modern dutch oven, though; the ones I saw were rounded through the sides and
bottom, more like we think of kettles.

Apparently, far more common was the tripod (trespies in Castilian, trespeus
in Catalan, trespiedi in Italian). Picture a flat ring of iron, about an
inch wide, about a foot in diameter, with three feet attached. On this, any
fire-safe pot or grill could be set over coals. The diameter of the ring
ranged from a few inches to over a foot across. The height of the legs also
varied from a few inches to about a foot. I'm sure there are probably
examples of both taller and shorter, bigger and smaller. I saw several
examples of those. The legs had a graceful sweep, but ended in simple
flattened feet, nothing fancy like claw-legs, etc. I couldn't get close
enough to see how the feet were attached to the ring.

A couple of years ago, I sent Duchess Melisande de Belvoir some examples of
recipes calling for a dutch oven-like cooking method, with coals under the
pot and coals piled on the lid. If I can find that old e-mail, I'll post the
citations.

Recently, Sams Club and Costco have been offering a set of cast iron cooking
gear from Wenzel, for under $40, and you get this nifty wooden chest, to
boot. You get a double-sided grill/griddle, two or three skillets, and a
dutch oven. I got the set last year, and it offered three smaller skillets
and a deep dutch oven with legs and a deep lid for coals. This year, the
same set offers two larger skillets and a shallower dutch oven without legs,
but it includes a lid lifter and a modern version of the
trespies/trespeus/trespiedi.

While a dutch oven may not be exactly period, it is almost identical in form
and function.

Thomas Longshanks

Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 01:49:13 +0200
From: tgl at mailer.uni-marburg.de
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch oven question

The word "testo" is used in the early Italian cookbooks for some heating
device, kind of hot stone(s), it seems, possibly kind of an oven; see,
e.g., the Anonimo Toscano and the Anonimo Veneziano (the latter one is
online). See also the 'Dizionario etimologico de la lingua italiana' by
Cortelazzo & Zolli, Vol. 5, p. 1336.

As to this description:

<< ... a three legged iron pot with a thick lid. You can pile coals
around and on top of it so that it functions like a small oven. >>

there seems to be an image of such an oven in Scappi's Opera, 1570. But
the text line does not include the word "testo" (but rather: "Forno di
rame co li trepiedi").

Th.

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 14:35:52 -0700
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Dutch oven question
From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com>

From: "Vincent Cuenca" <bootkiller at hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001:
>Does anyone have information about or pictures of a device called a "testo"?
>According to the descriptions I've read, it's a three legged iron pot with
>a thick lid.  You can pile coals around and on top of it so that it
>functions like a small oven.
>
>While the cast iron Dutch oven that we know of is not necessarily period, it
>strikes me that it functions in the same way as a testo.  De Nola has a
>number of recipes calling for the pot or pan in question to have coals
>heaped on the top of the lid.
>
>Any ideas?
>
>Vicente

	The pot that you describe sounds like a round bottomed, three legged,
lided pot that I have seen at the local GI Joe's store. Said pot I
believe stands about 18" tall, 2/3 are the pot and 1/3 are the legs. I
think that the lid would hold coals for cooking (bad memory). GI Joe's
described it as an "African pot" or something like that.

Korrin S. DaArdain
Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com

From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 00:33:45 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch oven question
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

korrin.daardain at juno.com writes:
<< GI Joe's described it as an "African pot" or something like that.
  >>

Yes. They are indded made in Africa and are a common 'house item to a large
portion of those that lead tribal lifestyles. The design is indeed very much
like thos pictured in some medieval picctures. In fact, there are many more
similarities than lack of them. I would say that it is about as close as a
person can come to having a mediaval style pot outside  of owning an actual
pot from the medieval time period.

Ras

Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 18:22:52 -0400
From: Irene Holloway <ireneh at erols.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org, johnna007h at netscape.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Regarding:Cast Iron Cookware//Dutch Ovens

I have been following the various discussions on cast iron cookware and
dutch ovens, especially the sections on where to obtain them.

I would hate to throw a damper on their use, but there are some quality
issues that crop up with the cheaper cast iron pieces.  Sandy Oliver's
newsletter on food history, as well as other publications, has talked
the use of cast iron in various American hearth cookery//period
restoration settings.  The general consensus was that all cast iron
these days was not the same quality.  Some of the cheap imports were
especially not recommended for use.

(I wish I could cite chapter, verse and issue as to which of Sandy
Oliver's issues to see, but I'm on holiday at the moment. The collection
is back home.)

Another point having cooked with cast iron over both open fires and
modern stoves, I would be of the opinion that outdoor cookery pieces
ought to be dedicated to just outdoor cookery.  You can of course follow
the old girl scout method of soaping the exteriors, but in my experience
the exteriors never cleaned up once they were used over a wood fire for
any extended period. This may or may not bother you but it's something
else to consider.

That being said, a recommemded source for acquiring pieces over time is
to shop garage sales, flea markets, etc. for the old heavy pices from
40-50 years ago.  Also ask around in your family circle.  Lots of people
abandoned cast iron when the teflon non-stick came into use. You'd be
surprised what turns up in your attics and back porch cabinets. Lodge
which produces some of the cast iron pieces also has outlet stores in
some of the various outlet malls across the country. Also any Amish
area, be it Ohio, Penn., Indiana, Illinois, etc. probably has a store
that sells cast ironware. Within the US, if you want to buy them, it's
often cheaper to travel to or detour to  a store that sells them rather
pay the shipping costs.

Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 20:07:28 +1000
From: Angelfire <angelfire2 at dingoblue.net.au>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] peach pit molds, period utensils

forgive my two cents worth, but perhaps a peg jug

I have seen them and they look interesting, according to the documentation that
accompanied them, they were used in monasteries to assist in the allocation of the daily allowance of spirit's (cider etc)

pegs circled down the jug at even intervals, the peg was pulled and the liquid
decanted into the individual pots, thus giving each an equal measure, apparently
also covers the phrase "bringing someone down a peg"

I know personally I would love a couple of them.

Angelfire

From: "Lord Boroghul Khara" <boroghul at narn.pecan-tree.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] wooden pizza peel prices
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 13:37:01 -0400

You can get short handled bread peels along with a circular baking stone
from Target!

I have two.

To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:06:13 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]  Ceramic frying pans, was: OOP: Frying pan 
	opinions? Try period ceramic pan.
From: Elizabeth A Heckert <spynnere at juno.com>

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:13:00 -0700 (PDT) Huette von Ahrens
<ahrenshav at yahoo.com> writes:
>However, if you want to make pancakes using a period
>pan, there is a 1560 painting by Joachim Beuchelaer
>showing a woman making pancakes using a ceramic [yes,
>Olga, ceramic!] pan.

"Medieval Pottery in Britain AD 900 - 1600"
M McCarthy and C. Brooks
Leiscester University Press; 1988

   This book is an archeological report and has lovely drawings--they're
cut away, so you get an idea of how thick the section is.  It has
ordinary frying-pan shapes as well as frying pans on legs, from at least
the mid 1300s.

   Elizabeth

Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 19:37:08 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [Fwd: Salamander - History?]

> Does anyone have a reference for a source concerning the history
> and use of salamanders?

OED takes it back to Hannah---

d. Cookery. A circular iron plate which is heated
 and placed over a pudding or other dish to brown it.
1755 H. Glasse Art of Cookery (ed. 5) 331 Put it in
 the Oven to brown, or do it with a Salamander.

Middle English Dictionary fails to list it.

Johnna Holloway   Johnnae llyn Lewis

I own one. It came from Williams-Sonoma. My son
was seriously into creme brulee for a while.

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 12:15:30 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Vidalia nionions...

What I find interesting about this site is that they stock a probably-period
breed of rice, Carolina Gold, which dates from the 1600's.  Some nice cookware
too, I covet that "biscuit bowl" which looks just like a bread-kneading trough
I've seen in various period artworks.

Selene, Caid [but married to a B'ham boy, remember]

> Kiri:  > If you go to www.boiledpeanuts.com, you can order them online......

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 10:40:52 EDT
From: DeeWolff at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Was: Odd question.../ NOW-Pots
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

In a message dated 10/17/03 10:21:56 AM, karobert at unm.edu writes:
> that sounds interesting.
> cailte

It is!!

My new rant is..... No matter how much we recreate the recipe, if we  
use a modern type pot, are we recreating accurately??

I did an experiment with this at an A&S expo, and I found that the pot DOES
matter. Different tastes happen when you cook the same exact food in different
pots. ( I used cast Iron-olive oil seasoned, stainless (generic bulk
kitchenware), and a tinned copper pot -bought from Goosebay Workshops)

I found that each recipe had a very different taste even though I used the
same exact ingredients and the same exact cooking method (over an oak wood coal
fire in my fireplace).

I offered the samples to the populace and they made the decision. The most
historically accurate pot won!! I blind tested and then told them what sample
was from where.

The copper pot was judged the best tasting, the cast iron was next, and  
The stainless the least.

Do we not use the steel pot the most at our feasts??

I have the write-up somewhere if anyone wants it. I plan to expand on  
This further when I get some free time.

Andrea MacIntyre

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 17:46:12 -0500
From: "Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fw: [EKMetalsmiths] History of eating utensils.
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>, <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>,
	<Trimariscookslist at yahoogroups.com>,
	<SCAFoodandFeasts at yahoogroups.com>,	<theforge at mailman.qth.net>

One of my metalheads on EKMetalsmiths found this link, so I'm passing it
along...

> The following reference showed up in the KEENJUNKYARD forum and seemed to
be appropriate for this list.  Contains pictures and historical information
including dates on knives, forks, spoon, and chopsticks.
>
> http://www.calacademy.org/research/anthropology/utensil/index.html
>
> Albin Drzewianowski
> Westminster, MD

Saint Phlip,
CoDoLDS

Date: Mon,  9 Feb 2004 15:49:33 -0500
From: "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1 at iconn.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch ovens?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> IIRC cast iron did not come into use until post-period.

Not necessarily the case, everywhere...

The English were doing a lot of Iron Casting in the Early 1500's and  
there were a number of Cast Iron post found in the Mary Rose  
Excavation, several of which were round bellied kettles with three legs.

I do not know of any of the cylindrical pots with tight fitting inset  
lids we call dutch ovens today, but cast iron there certainly was.

In the 15th century the rise of Gunpowder weapons created a need for  
accurate projectiles... the common method was to make round stone  
balls, but Cast Iron balls were much cheaper.

A lot of the European Cast Iron was made into ingots and billets to use  
in Wrought Iron ( the process it is believed having been brought into  
the west in the 12-13th centuries through contact with the Chinese who  
had the art from before the 6th century ), but it was also turned to  
projectiles.
The European smithies seemed to prefer working with Bloomery Iron,  
which was then hammered and rivetted into shapes.
Most pots and utensils were of sheet work (iron, copper, or bronze).

But some Casters did experiment with making "useful" forms.
But it WAS uncommon.

However since rivetted and watertight pots of brass or copper are  
rather expensive, I'd say cast iron pots are not a bad alternative,  
even if they are made using a Bessemer furnace and the Lodge process  
today.

Brandu

Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 15:06:45 -0700
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch ovens?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 13:12 -0500 2004-02-09, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com wrote:
>  I want to buy a pot for camping.  I know cast
> iron dutch ovens aren't really period, but they
> are something I can afford and don't look too
> glaring to modern eyes.  Amazon has an 8 quart
> one for $27 with free shipping.
>
>  When were dutch ovens first used (the kind that you put coals on the  
> lid) ?
>
>  Or do you know where to buy a more period style
> of pot that isn't too expensive?

I don't know when Dutch ovens were first used, and I don't know what
they were made of, nor their exact physical appearance, but they
are at least late period.

A Dutch oven (coals on the lid) is mentioned several times in the
Dutch "Cocboeck" (1593) by Carolus Battus, using the Dutch words
"oven" and "vladepan".

There are also several mentions in the French / Belgian "Ouverture"
(1604) by Lancelot de Casteau which suggest (e.g. "put the lids on
top with some fire") that something very similar was in use in
Liège.  The French word "tortiere" / "tourtier" / "tourtiere" is
used in eleven recipes, and clearly usually has a lid, unlike the
modern open pie dish of the same name.

Casteau first worked as a master cook for a Bishop of Liège in
about 1560, which suggests he was then at least in his 20s, and
seems to have been retired by 1604.  So he is remembering the
use of the utensils from the second half of the 1500s.

A quick look in "Larousse Gastronomique" (p. 557) gives a French
manor house kitchen inventory from 1530 which includes "one big
cast-iron pot with perforations", which shows that cast iron was
available in 1530.  There is however no item in this inventory
which sounds to me at all like a Dutch oven.

Rey et al. "Dictionnaire historique de la langue française" give
the first mention of "fonte" in the sense of cast-iron in 1472,
though the word is used as early as 1227 but without necessarily
meaning cast-iron.

Rey et al. give the earliest citation of "tourtière" as a kitchen
utensil in 1573 but do not give any detailed description of it.

Thorvald

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 03:46:57 +0000
From: ekoogler1 at comcast.net
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dutch ovens?

> Rey et al. give the earliest citation of "tourtière" as a kitchen
> utensil in 1573 but do not give any detailed description of it.
>
> Thorvald

There are references in Platina and other 15th century Italian  
cookbooks to a pot that you put coals on the lid of to make it function  
as an oven.  My books are still in the car from a class I taught, so  
I'll bring them in tomorrow and look it up.  The name of the pot was  
the Italian version of the French name given here.

Kiri

Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2004 06:36:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Louise Smithson <helewyse at yahoo.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dutch ovens?
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Indeed there are.  It is called a Testo - basically a
top.  There are pictures of them in Scappi (16th C
Itlian).  The documentation on Testo indicates that
they were either made of pottery or of copper, not
iron.  But they did fit over the pie pan and allow you
to bake pies in the coals of a fire. Where a testo is
referenced in the recipe you often find a description
of how to use it.  I.e. use more fire above than
below, or some such description.  
I plan on making one out of clay before Pennsic and
using it + the pie as my entry for the A&S display.  
Helewyse

Kiri wrote: 
There are references in Platina and other 15th century Italian 
cookbooks to a pot that you put coals on the lid of to
make it function as an 
oven.  

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 21:19:02 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Food paintings
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 3 Mar 2004, at 11:32, kingstaste at mindspring.com wrote:
> While you are looking, I should tell you that the project I'm starting on
> now is to identify recipes (and paintings would be really helpful as well)
> that specify a particular type of cooking vessel.

Okay.... de Nola has a number of recipes that are to be cooked in a cazuela
(casserole) of earthenware.
The Velasquez painting in the link below is slightly out of period (1618).
http://www.artchive.com/artchive/V/velazquez/velazquez_frying_eggs.jpg.html

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 22:17:00 -0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Food paintings
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On 4 Mar 2004, at 3:07, ekoogler1 at comcast.net wrote:
> That is wonderful.  It's close enough to period that the equipment has  
> got to have been used at least late in period, if not earlier.

And it's still made.  I forgot to post this link:
http://www.tienda.com/ceramics/cazuelas.html

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom

Date: Sun, 3 Oct 2004 11:43:10 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Images of rolling pins
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Does anyone know of any images of rolling pins around?  I'm trying to pass a
> badge for a kingdom notable and need documentation for the icon.
>
> Vitha

IIRC, there are some shown in illustrations from Bartoloma Scappi's Opera.
I believe you can find links to the webbed illustrations from Cindy
Renfrow's website.

Bear

Date: Mon, 4 Oct 2004 10:23:00 -0400
From: Daniel Myers <edouard at medievalcookery.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Images of rolling pins
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

On Oct 3, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Kerri Martinsen wrote:
> Does anyone know of any images of rolling pins around?  I'm trying to
> pass a badge for a kingdom notable and need documentation for the icon.

There's a rolling pin clearly visible in the painting "Kitchen" by
Vincenzo Campi (ca. 1580).  You can see it online at the Web Gallery of
art:
	http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/c/campi/vincenzo/2kitchen.jpg

Other paintings on the same site by Campi - worth looking at for food
related stuff:
	http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/c/campi/vincenzo/index.html

- Doc
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
   Edouard Halidai  (Daniel Myers)

Date: Mon, 04 Oct 2004 10:32:53 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Images of roling pins
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Daniel Myers wrote:
> On Oct 3, 2004, at 11:49 AM, Kerri Martinsen wrote:
>> Does anone know of any images of rolling pins around?  I'm trying to
>> pass a badge for a kingdom notable and need documentation for the icon.
>
> There's a rolling pin clearly visible in the painting "Kitchen" by
> Vincenzo Campi (ca. 1580).  You can see t online at the Web Gallery
> of art:
>     http://gallery.euroweb.hu/art/c/campi/vincenzo/2kitchen.jpg

These appear to be untapered and without distinctive handles.  Therefore
you could blazon it as a Billet [a vertical rectangle, possibly a bit
short and squat for an actual rolling pin] or possibly as a Pale or Fess
Couped [vertical or horizontal stripe extending most of the way from end
to end of the field, cut at the ends to form a longer rectangle].

Heraldicook Selene

Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2005 12:47:11 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Grilling in Pompeii
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Sharon Gordon wrote:
> I'm interested in a grill/brazier from Pompeii and any related cooking
> implements or pots. snipped

The new edition of Apicius should have information on this.
Sally has been perfecting the recipes by cooking in the Roman fashion.
Susan and I saw her demo at the Leeds Symposium in 2005.
Tom Jaine on the Prospect Books site notes that
"I am advised that the manuscript of a new commented edition of
Apicius by Sally Grainger (the cook-commentator) and Chris Grocock
(the Latin scholar) is extremely imminent. "

So the book ought to be out in 2006.

Johnnae

Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2006 00:53:50 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for a Roman craticula (cooking grate)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

There is one on page 107 of Giacosa's A Taste of Ancient Rome.  There is
supposed to be one in Vehling's Apicius.  IIRC, there is a photograph of one
in the catalog of the Pompeii exhibition that went around about 30 years
ago.  The Legio IX Hispana actually built one and you can chase it here,
http://www.atrium-media.com/rogueclassicism/Posts/00000220.html .

Bear

> This summer someone posted a picture of a reproduction of a Roman craticula.
> A friend said he would make me one because it looked like it would fold down
> nicely for taking camping.  Now neither of us can find the picture.
>
> It is essentially a metal grate made with something resembling rebar. What
> I remember is a rectangular frame with about 1/3 spaced out with two circles
> of metal designed to hole pots, then the other 2/3's made grill like with
> metal bars that could fold down to create the gill or fold out of the way.
> All on nice collapsible legs.
>
> Ring any bells for anyone?  Stefan has a mention in the Cheap Apicus Art
> section with an article by Margali "Apicus for the Impoverished"
>
> Maybe something like St. Lawrence's gridiron but with special round  
> holes for pots.
>
> Wanda Pease/Regina Romsey

Date: Mon, 02 Jan 2006 00:00:33 -0800
From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at cox.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Looking for a Roman craticula (cooking grate)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

At 08:03 PM 1/1/2006,Wanda Pease said something like:

> This summer someone posted a picture of a reproduction of a Roman craticula.
> A friend said he would make me one because it looked like it would fold down
> nicely for taking camping.  Now neither of us can find the picture.
>
> It is essentially a metal grate made with something resembling rebar.  What
> I remember is a rectangular frame with about 1/3 spaced out with two circles
> of metal designed to hole pots, then the other 2/3's made grill like with
> metal bars that could fold down to create the gill or fold out of the way.
> All on nice collapsible legs.
> Wanda Pease/Regina Romsey

Try the Legio IX Hispana site?
http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org/brazier.html

With a closeup here:
http://www.legio-ix-hispana.org/brazier01.jpg

As these fellows are local to me I intend (really) to approach them about
maybe knocking out something like that for the Calafian Outdoor Cooking
guild to play with.  With one of these we could even use those neato clay
pots (olla type things) for cooking.

Maggie MacD.
(Mad 12th night cook, we're just debating which version of "mad")

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 15:07:18 -0400
From: "Stephanie Ross" <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] reinactment goods
To: "SCA-Cooks" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Droolworthy website. Ointment pots, pottery dutch ovens, flesh hooks,
drinking vessels, dining sets...

Historic Enterprises
http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=129

~Aislinn~
Et si omnes ego non.

Date: Fri, 7 Jul 2006 16:39:14 -0400
From: "Kirsten Houseknecht" <kirsten at fabricdragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] reinactment goods
To: <hlaislinn at earthlink.net>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

ah yes. historic enterprises and Black Swan designs.
great folks, they set up every year in a mock tudor "house" at Pennsic.
they have a lot of my money. they sell St Louis Gowns...in 100% linen.
they dont usually bring the food related stuff to Pennsic, more the  
clothing and gear......
Kirsten Houseknecht
Fabric Dragon
kirsten at fabricdragon.com
www.fabricdragon.com
Philadelphia, PA     USA
Trims, Amber, Jet, Jewelry, and more...

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 13:57:51 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Tripods, Supports, Pompeii Brazier,
	fire height
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Am Montag, 11. September 2006 16:07 schrieb Sharon Gordon:
> How about metal cookware?  I have a hard time figuring out what is period
> and what isn't.  I mean some things are easy.  I know to give the  
> iron corn shaped corn bread pan a pass :-).

I know of cast and hammered copper alloy, hammered copper sheets, and
one-piece or riveted iron kettles and pans. Kettles are usually
round-bottomed, as are the three-legged variety made of copper alloy (like
modern Dutch Ovens or potjies, exceprt those are of iron). I've also seen
straight-sided, flat-bottomed copper alloy kettles, but those seem to have
been rarer. Pans are usually flat or nearly flat and sometimes have three
'legs' as well as a handle. I know of one remarkably deep, almost wok-like
example from Braunschweig, though, and next time I hope they'll allow me to
take a picture.

> Also does anyone know of people making the Pompeii Brazier as shown  
> here.

Deepeeka steelcraft in india makes it, but you have to hunt down a retailer.
they only deal with businesses.

Giano

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2006 10:57:14 -0400
From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cooking Tripods, Supports, Pompeii Brazier,
	fire height
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 9/11/06, Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de> wrote:
> Am Montag, 11. September 2006 16:07 schrieb Sharon Gordon:
>> How about metal cookware?  I have a hard time figuring out what is  period
>> and what isn't.  I mean some things are easy.  I know to give the  
>> iron corn shaped corn bread pan a pass :-).
>
> I know of cast and hammered copper alloy, hammered copper sheets, and
> one-piece or riveted iron kettles and pans. Kettles are usually
> round-bottomed, as are the three-legged variety made of copper alloy (like
> modern Dutch Ovens or potjies, exceprt those are of iron). I've also seen
> straight-sided, flat-bottomed copper alloy kettles, but those seem to have
> been rarer. Pans are usually flat or nearly flat and sometimes have three
> 'legs' as well as a handle. I know of one remarkably deep, almost wok-like
> example from Braunschweig, though, and next time I hope they'll  
> allow me to take a picture.

I suspect, rather like with recipe ingredients, the shape and style of
a cooking pan depends on your when/where. Follow this link to see some
copper cauldrons from the Viking era:

http://www.netlabs.net/~osan/Mastermyr/ImageLib.html

Images 23 and 24. Also, there's trivets, #92 and #93

The Mastermyr project, many of the various pieces reproduced by
mundane blacksmiths is what I managed to get to An Tir Coronation in
July. If anyone is over there near Seattle, Baron Sven has it at the
moment- he's trying to arrange to display it at more An Tir events.

And, this Pennsic, we had a couple of informal cooking with pottery
over an open fire classes in SPCA camp. Food was pretty good, although
we rapidly discovered how sensitive pottery is to thermal shock ;-)
And, I came home with a "crock pot" and a "frying pan" made by Master
Hroar. Am very thrilled with them ;-)
-- 
Saint Phlip

Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2006 17:31:13 -0800
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Kewl eating utensil...
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On 12/16/06 4:56 PM, "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com> wrote:
> http://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/opac/search/cataloguedetail.html? 
> &priref=70534 &_function_=xslt&_limit_=10

Holy Schlamoly, this is a Roman Army Knife!  I wants one.  

So what is your take on the functions of all the non-spoon  
attachments?  Ear picks, etc?

Selene

Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:15:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: charding at nwlink.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Potjies
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Meat hooks are great.  My partner William found one at Mark deGaukler's
booth.  It had apparently been discarded because one of the three hooks
was broken.  It was from a 15th cen. find.  William put a handle on it,
and it works just fine with two hooks.

Maeva

> Or you could potentially use a period meat hook to grab the chicken.  It
> has a long handle with three almost finger-like pieces that come out  
> from the side.  I haven't used mine yet, but I got it from Historic  
> Enterprises.
>
> Kiri
>
> On 6/14/07, Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> Michael Gunter wrote:
>>> I got a three-legged and round bottomed pot. The round bottom
>>> hasn't been opened yet but I roasted a chicken in the legged pot
>>> and it worked great. There are a couple of disadvantages from my
>>> modern dutch oven. One is that the top is a little narrow so getting
>>> the chicken in was a little cumbersome.
>>
>> As I understand it, there is a reason for this shaping.  It steers the
>> steam to the center top and condenses on the inside, effectively
>> self-basting the contents.  Next time I roast a chicken in one I will
>> probably install a hook with which to lift out the birdie without having
>> to put my hands in the roasting hot pot in order to get a grip.
>>
>> Selene

Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:38:00 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Potjies
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> have one for bacon turning. [flesh hooks - Stefan]
>
> Trust me, I have never seen anything resembling a flesh hook in our house.
> Although I just checked the Historic Enterprises site and it is only $25.

Sarah's dad made one and gave it to me (because he had no idea what else
to do with it-- it's a fairly simple metalworking project if you have
the tools... I could probably have made one in metal shop in junior
high.)
-- 
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net 

Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 00:17:39 GMT
From: "jbjt30 at juno.com" <jbjt30 at juno.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Introduction & question
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

My name is Fa'rissa I mostly just "lurk" on your list soaking up tons  
of wonderful knowledge but I have a question so I thought I'd better  
introduce myself first.  

I stumbled across a neat site someone listed on the Newcomers list  
and I was curious if any of you had checked it out and what you thought.
http://www.jelldragon.com
They have rivetted cauldron's that really look like fun and their  
note on how to authentically waterproof them was really interesting!   
I just don't know if it would really work.  If anyone gets a chance  
I'd love to know what you think!
I doubt I could afford the shipping but they sure look neat!

Fa'rissa (of the Outlands)

Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:08:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: charding at nwlink.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Waterproffing riveted cauldrons
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

that is the method I have used for years on our riveting cauldrons.  I
have to repeat the exercise periodically. We use our cauldrons to  
boil tea water, cook stews, soups, etc.

Maeva
in Glymm Mere, An Tir
(Olympia, WA)

Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2007 07:27:52 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Introduction & question
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jun 21, 2007, at 8:17 PM, jbjt30 at juno.com wrote:
> They have riveted cauldron's that really look like fun and thier
> note on how to authentically waterproof them was really
> interesting!  I just don't know if it would really work.  If anyone
> gets a chance I'd love to know what you think!
> I doubt I could afford the shipping but they sure look neat!
> 
> Fa'rissa (of the Outlands)

I haven't done it, but it sounds sensible enough, in theory. If you
know how the seasoning of cast iron pots works, think of cast iron
under a microscope as being composed of crystals, but in a sort of
foamy matrix. It's a very porous substance. When you season and cook
in an iron pan, you're filling those pores with fats which will
eventually oxidize or otherwise chemically convert into a solid,
plastic-like substance. When you do this, you're reducing the surface
area, making the pan smoother, and giving the fats in foods being
cooked no place to go but as a lubricant between the food and the
pan. As you use the pan (and clean it properly without losing
seasoning from previous usage), the inner surface gets coated with
newer droplets of fat. If you use the pan frequently, these are
likely to be fresh and haven't yet become a plasticized layer, nor
will they contribute a bad flavor to your food. And it takes very
little additional fat to cook your food without it sticking to the
pan. Generally speaking...

With me so far?

Here you have a steel pot (the period article would presumably have
been sheet iron but that's probably harder to come by for most small
metalworking concerns). It's probably less porous than a cast iron
pot, but it still has these cracks to fill between the plates. As
with the pores in an iron pot, you're essentially filling them with
leftover bits of food which will serve as a cement, sealer, and
eventually, seasoning.

Note that what's advertised is a Viking-style cauldron, and what's
being suggested as foods for sealing and seasoning this pot are the
same foods early Scandinavians would have been living on (more or
less, although maybe not the sugar) anyway: milk, oats, assorted
sugar forms, etc. As with seasoning an iron pot, this is a process
meant to artificially accelerate the process whereby the pot improves
with repeated use: you're filling the gaps between the plates, and
the rivet holes, with naturally occurring adhesives/fillers, like
fiber and starch granules from oats, cemented, caramelized sugars,
both from the sugar you add and from the milk, and plasticized fats
from the milk. If you were a Norse lady cooking a pottage in a new
pot, it's conceivable you might have used this sealing process (this
is research I simply haven't done), or you might have simply used a
leaky pot, and allowed some percentage of your pottage to leak
through into the fire, but you'd probably notice after several uses
that this tendency decreased, and eventually stopped (you wouldn't be
washing between the cracks, I assume), and your pot would be
watertight and nearly non-stick if properly used and maintained.

Perhaps not nearly as new-looking and shiny as when you bought it,
but still quite functional.

Adamantius

Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2007 21:03:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: charding at nwlink.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] riveted cauldrons
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

We have to redo the sealing every few years (I would say more often if we
cook in them more in one season.)  Don't soak stuff in the cauldron as
that tends to weaken the sealing.

Mine were made by my partner William.  I would think that if you have a
blacksmith in your area, they could make one for you.

Maeva

> I appreciate both of your responses.  The reason I was wondering was
> because the fiber and starch granules that build up to fill in the gaps
> seems like it would soften and melt or wash away the next time you boiled
> water in the pot.  With cast iron (which I have several pieces of) when
> you "season" them the oil kind of soaks into the "pours" and oil doesn't
> disolve like starch will.  Maeva do you have that problem?
> May I also ask where you found your riveted pots?  Is there someone here
> in the US that sells them?  (I might be able to afford the shipping if I
> didn't have to have it shipped from Europe.)
> One other question are they really heavy?  More heavy then a 2  
> quart Dutch Oven?
> 
> Fa'rissa

Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:01:12 -0400
From: "Saint Phlip" <phlip at 99main.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: Books on Bowls,	Purses and Shoes from the
	Middle Ages, on offer from DBBC
To: medieval-leather at yahoogroups.com,	"Arts and Sciences in the SCA"
	<artssciences at lists.gallowglass.org>,	"Cooks within the SCA"
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,	SCA-AuthenticCooks at yahoogroups.com

I know we were discussing bowls on one of my Lists. Looks like a nice
selection of books coming out.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ian.stevens at dbbcdist.com <ian.stevens at dbbcdist.com>
Date: Sep 10, 2007 11:44 AM
Subject: Books on Bowls, Purses and Shoes from the Middle Ages, on
offer from DBBC
To: phlip at 99main.com

Dear Philippa Alderton,

One new and two forthcoming items that will interest medieval
archaeologists and re-enactors:

Firstly, we have received some copies of Robin Wood's very
attractively produced history of that humblest of objects: the wooden
bowl. The book looks at woods used and turning techniques, but perhaps
the greatest assets are the book's photographs which present bowls
from the Iron Age and Roman periods, through Anglo-Saxon and later
medieval examples, and ending up with Tudor and later pieces. And
what's more, we are offering 20% off the cover price. Click below to
see more details and to order.

Our second book, which will be available at the very end of the year
is Olaf Goubitz's "Purses in Pieces". The book looks at and
illustrates purses, pouches, bags and cases from the later middle
ages and sixteenth century, all of which were found in Goubitz's
native Netherlands. We have an introductory offer price of $35 on the
book and you can click below for more details, including some sample
pages to see just how well-illustrated the book will be.

And finally, also from Olaf Goubitz, we are delighted to announce that
his "Stepping Through Time: Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric
Times until 1800" will be released in paperback later this year. The
book became increasingly hard to find in hardback and finally went out
of print, so the appearance of a paper edition (which, while not
cheap, is still considerably cheaper than the old hardback) shoudl be
very welcome.

The bowls book is available now, but the other two will not be here
until the end of the year. Still, you can secure your copy by ordering
now.... I hope you will.

With regards,

Ian Stevens
The David Brown Book Company
Tel: 1-800-791-9354

'The Wooden Bowl' - by Robin Wood
List Price: US$ 49.50 * Our Price: US$ 40.00 *
Link: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/bookinfo.cfm?ID=48389&MID=11474

Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:28:22 -0600
From: "S CLEMENGER" <sclemenger at msn.com>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] something of interest....
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

A friend of mine, who happens to be a reference librarian (and hence, is much more "up" on periodicals than I), sent me a note this afternoon that I thought worth passing on.  She says that the new issue of Antiques has an article on Ivan Day's collection of culinary antiques. It shows a couple of sugar plate molds. Since I know that some of you out there share her interest in things sweet, I thought I'd share!

--Maire

Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 20:38:10 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] something of interest....
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Cool. Looked this up--

This is the English Antiques Magazine
http://www.themagazineantiques.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1285&Itemid=45

Johnnae

S CLEMENGER wrote:
<<< A friend of mine, who happens to be a reference librarian (and hence, is much more "up" on periodicals than I), sent me a note this afternoon that I thought worth passing on.  She says that the new issue of Antiques has an article on Ivan Day's collection of culinary antiques. It shows a couple of sugar plate molds. Since I know that some of you out there share her interest in things sweet, I thought I'd share!

--Maire >>>

Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 10:19:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Equipment Misuse Idea
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Just a story I would like to share in case it turns out useful for someone: 

We had a copier repairman over at the school I work for last week. He replaced two rubberized paper feed rolls in the machine (it's working - sort of - reliably now). He then tossed the old ones and I noticed that they were solid, smooth, heavy and perfectly machined cylinders; 

Rolling pins. 

So I adopted them, took them home, cleaned them thoroughly (that is important  unless you ginger-nut-toner cookies) and used them for the first time today. I tried both a silicon mat and a glass plate as surfaces and they are wonderful for rolling out dough very thin. Probably not so useful for crumbly doughs, I'll try that next.

Giano

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:33:41 -0700
From: Glenn Gorsuch <ggorsuch at gmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Brandreths and bakestones oh my...

Stefan queries:
<<< What are "brandreths"? >>>

Um...think tall metal trivets, usually open in the middle.  Some were square
in shape, others round or triangular.  The height of the legs provide heat
control for your fire, with the notion that when you wanted to really get
things hot, you'd use one with short legs, thus close to the fire, taller
ones for more moderate heat.  I suspect they were developed because a set of
them, plus various and sundry pots, were a lot cheaper (and easier to
make) than a whole MESS of pots with feet with various length legs, and less
prone to pot-breakage.  You can also keep a ceramic pot much further from
the fire if you want than if they had built in ceramic legs of their own,
plus you can probably use a much bigger pot.

<<< The bakestones I think I've heard of were flat plates of stone (or
stoneware?) placed in an oven to provide an even heat source. When you say
"bakestone" which is for outside use and I assume not in a gas oven or on
top of a gas range, what do you have in mind? >>>

Those in fact are the bakestones (flat plates of stone), though the earlier
approach, at least for the Welsh, was to take one of these bakestones and
put it on (taa daa)...yes, a brandreth, as a sort of griddle.  Though I
imagine a poorer kitchen would just make a permament nook off the main
hearth and keep the bakestone there permanently.  If you wanted to bake with
it (more than just flatbreads), you could invert a nice heavy ceramic pot
(I'm thinking a nice big terracotta flowerpot) over your goods to be baked,
and pile coals around the lot, with the fire underneath as well.  Voila,
Dutch oven-type baking without a non-period Dutch oven.  From what I've read
(Brears), the really good bakestones were carved with a shallow hollow
underneath, allowing for better expansion and contraction.  Apparently also
there are a number of British placenames that were derived from being places
that bakestones were gathered/mined/or otherwise associated with (I don't
have a list of those names right now, being as I'm at work, and my
non-electronic library isn't).

Gwyn

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:30:39 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brandreths and bakestones oh my...

Stefan queries:
<<< What are "brandreths"? >>>

Um...think tall metal trivets, usually open in the middle.  Some were square
in shape, others round or triangular.  The height of the legs provide heat
control for your fire, with the notion that when you wanted to really get
things hot, you'd use one with short legs, thus close to the fire, taller
ones for more moderate heat.  I suspect they were developed because a set 
of them, plus various and sundry pots, were a lot cheaper (and easier to
make) than a whole MESS of pots with feet with various length legs, and 
less prone to pot-breakage.  You can also keep a ceramic pot much further from
the fire if you want than if they had built in ceramic legs of their own,
plus you can probably use a much bigger pot.
----------------

The original usage of brandreth is for a grate or gridiron mounted on a 
tripod and used over a fire.  The definition expanded to include all sorts 
of tripodal supports, a fence or railing around a well and a structure of 
piling serving as the foundation of a house.

Bear 

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2010 16:00:25 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Brandreths and bakestones oh my...

This is a term that can be searched in the Middle English Dictionary
which is online for members of the public.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/m/med/lookup.html
brand-reth (n.) Also brand-rith, -rath, -ret & -let, -led, brend-let,  
brenled.

[ON (cp. OI brand-rei?) & OE brandrd, -red(a, -rida.]

1.

(a) A grate, gridiron, or trivet for supporting cooking utensils above  
a fire; (b) a gridiron for torture.

(a)  (1360) Invent.Monk-Wear.in Sur.Soc.29   152:  In coquina..ij  
brandreths.  (1400) Will York in Sur.Soc.45   14:  j brandereth cum vj  
barrez ferri.  (c1422) Invent.Norwich in Nrf.Archaeol.12   202:  ij  
pothokys, ij brendled, j fleshhok.  (1440) PParv.(Hrl 221)   47:   
Brandelede [Win: braynloyde]: Tripes.  c1440 Thrn.Med.Bk.(Thrn)    
7/29:  Tak grene 3erdis of esche & lay ?am ouer a brandrethe & make a  
fire vnder ?am.  (1459-60) Acc.R.Dur.in Sur.Soc.99   89:  It. j magnum  
Brandreth cum ij costeris, et j parvum Brandreth.  (1465) Acc.R.Dur.in  
Sur.Soc.99   244:  Item j brandreth cum iiijor costis ferreis. Item j  
brandreth rotundum.  (1465) Paston   4.202:  ij rakks of yron, ij  
brendeletts.  ?a1500 Lndsb.Nominale (Lndsb)   769/26:  Hic tripes: a  
brenlede.

(b)  c1450 St.Eras.(Add 36983)   p.203:  ?e xliii [passion] was  
brennyng on a brandlete bounden ?erto.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2010 09:19:01 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] books on graters

Lots of items were grated. Dried bread was grated for sauces.
SUGAR came in cones. It was grated. Other spices were grated.
Hard cheese would have been grated.
Medieval/Renaissance Food Clip-Art Collection has numerous Scappi  
woodcuts for various graters.
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food-art/

Johnnae

On Jul 18, 2010, at 4:36 AM, yaini0625 at yahoo.com wrote:
<<< What about graters for sea salt? I received some Mediterranean sea  
salt as a gift with a grater. There was an explanation that sea salt  
was once grated.
Aelina >>>

Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2010 13:37:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Graters?

I love Scappi's tools - what a wonderful reference.  And the specialty
nutmeg grater is simply squee.

It got me thinking though - I wonder if in a more common kitchen they
would have used a regular grater?  There are several references to
"reibeisen" (graters) in the 16th century German cookbooks, and the images
I have seen of them are about half round and attached to a flat board.  It
might be pretty easy to make one with a hammer and punch.  It's sort of
like the 2nd one on the left here:
http://www.mcclellanelmsantiques.com/Grater_collection_1.jpg

Katherine (still geeking on equipment)

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 11:22:23 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>,
	"mk-cooks at midrealm.org" <mk-cooks at midrealm.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

Greetings!  Here is a link to a company which produces reproduction 
bronze cooking items - http://www.historiccastings.co.uk/ .  If you 
think you want some of the pieces, be aware that the company is said to 
be difficult to get a response from! They are the ones who supply the 
bronze cookware for Hampton Court.

Alys K.

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 15:16:00 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

They may do bronze ware but they do so with this warning

WARNING!!                 Do NOT use Bronze for Cooking!!

Although the items cast in Bronze look wonderful and, truth to tell  
are more historically accurate for early periods, you MUST NOT use  
them for cooking if you're going to eat the food.

The bronze is an alloy containing mainly copper and tin, but also has  
up to 5% lead and does NOT conform to modern cookware requirements.

Please be aware that there is a serious risk of VERDIGRIS poisoning  
from the copper and lead is not something you want to be ingesting  
either.

Only use cast-iron if you're going to consume the food you make; if  
you're demonstrating then Bronze is fine.

----

They actually endorse using aluminum in another place on their site  
because it weighs less.

Johnna

On Aug 28, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Elise Fleming wrote:
<<< Greetings!  Here is a link to a company which produces reproduction  
bronze cooking items - http://www.historiccastings.co.uk/ .  If you  
think you want some of the pieces, be aware that the company is said  
to be difficult to get a response from! They are the ones who supply  
the bronze cookware for Hampton Court.

Alys K. >>>

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:08:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Honour Horne-Jaruk <jarukcomp at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

On Aug 28, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Elise Fleming wrote:
Greetings!  Here is a link to a company which
produces reproduction bronze cooking items - http://www.historiccastings.co.uk/ 

--- On Sat, 8/28/10, Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com> wrote:
They may do bronze ware but they do so with this warning

WARNING!! Do NOT use Bronze for Cooking!!
(because of copper and lead content)
Johnna
=============

Their bronze products should be perfectly safe for cooking use if they are first _heavily_ tinned by a professional, and kept heavily tinned throughout their lifespan. I still constantly use many tinned copperware items, which would require meticulous polishing before each and every use if they weren't tinned (to remove the toxic vedigris).

Yours in service to both the Societies of which I am a member-
(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.
Alizaundre de Brebeuf, C.O.L. S.C.A.- AKA Una the wisewoman, or That Pict

Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2010 14:40:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cast Iron Cookware was Bronze Cookware

I'm glad you brought up cast iron because I was on the verge of asking a
question about it anyway!  I've been trying to get my hands on anything to
do with kitchen equipment in Germany in the 16th century.  I've had some
success, but most of my on-line references are saying that cast iron is
just not period to the 16th century in Europe or quite rare.  I've been
looking over period German inventories, and while iron pots/pans are
listed, it doesn't specify anything further than their material of
manufacture.  Most kitchens had a majority of copper pans from my still
nascent survey.

Because I was interested in the period English equivalent names, I checked
out "Iron and Brass Implements of the English and American House", by J.
Seymour Lindsay.  The first edition was published in 1927, so it makes
this old scholarship, but it seems to clearly indicate that cast iron
cauldrons are at least datable to the 15th century:

"A small fifteenth-century bronze water vessel showing Flemish influence
(Fig. 116) is suspended by an iron handle, the liquid being drawn off
through either of the two spouts.  Cast-iron cauldrons of this and the
following century (Frg. 113 to 115) are similar in form to the bronze
vessels.  As the cast-iron industry expanded they were made in large
quantities for farmhouses and cottage use, and continued to be an
indispensable utensil in all kitchens with down-hearths and open grates." 
The line drawings of figures 113-115 indicate that these examples are in
the National Museum of Antiquities, Edinburgh.

Might anyone here have a more modern take on the subject?  Thank you all
for being such a go-to kind of group!

Katherine

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 08:25:53 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

Greetings!  Concern has been expressed regarding the warning on the web 
page where the reproduction bronze cookware is for sale.  I sent a query 
to the Hampton Court cooks, asking if they tinned the cookware or had 
concerns about using it.  I received a brief response (with an 
indication that a longer explanation might be forthcoming) which said 
that, no, they didn't have the cookware tinned because there was no 
indication that it would have been tinned in period.  The responder, one 
of the cooks who eats the food prepared in the cookpots, said that he 
had a complete blood workup last year where he specifically asked to be 
tested for heavy metals.  His blood was normal, no indication of heavy 
metals in it.

Another person, not one of the cooks, said that he believed that, if the 
food was immediately removed from the pots (not left to cool in them), 
there would be no problem with lead leaching out into the liquids.

If/When I hear more from Hampton Court, I'll pass it on.  At this point 
it sounds as if they use the pots and don't have any problem with lead. 
A subsequent post by a non-Hampton Court cook posited that period 
bronze cookware could have lead content up to 20 or 30 percent.  That 
would make the current 5 percent fairly low.

Alys K.

Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 12:38:48 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

I just received their price list and they do all the same products in cast
iron. 
Eduardo

On 8/30/10 8:49 AM, "wheezul at canby.com" <wheezul at canby.com> wrote:
<<< If/When I hear more from Hampton Court, I'll pass it on.  At this point
it sounds as if they use the pots and don't have any problem with lead.
 A subsequent post by a non-Hampton Court cook posited that period
bronze cookware could have lead content up to 20 or 30 percent.  That
would make the current 5 percent fairly low.

Alys K. >>>

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 00:44:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: H Westerlund-Davis <yaini0625 at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Bronze Cookware

At the risk of sounding too much like a blacksmith </;o) there are texts that 
have been found dating back to 1440 that  lists basins, a colander, chafers and 
candlesticks made of "laton" aka bronze and pots and pans were made of brasse. 
The terms brass and bronze were used interchangeably leading to confusion.  John 
Blair and Nigel Ramsey book English Medieval Industries has more detail about 
the difference and terminology of brass, laton, and bronze in regards to 
cookware. 

Bronze alloy is made up of copper and tin or cooper and zinc ( brass or Viking 
bronze). The lead is naturally found blended with the ore when tin and zinc are 
mined. This also is why pewter prior to A.D. 1990 must be used with caution due 
naturally high lead content. Pewter is lead and tin mixed. Modern pewter is now 
tin and antimony. Modern processing better separates the lead from the tin ore. 
My husband and I are theorizing that this company is literally recreating period 
bronze alloy, lead and all. Modern food grade bronze used silica in place of the 
lead. They are possibly using the raw ores in a smelting process instead of 
refined tin and copper ore. Since historically England, especially around 
Cornwall, had huge tin mines and Ireland had the copper mines they could 
literally be walking into their backyard to get their ore. 

Night All,
Aelina the Saami

From: Saint Phlip <phlip at 99main.com>
<<< The thing I'm having trouble understanding is that if the cookware is
bronze, why does it have lead in it?
Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. Period. Brass is an alloy of
zinc and copper.

Now, I know that lead is often added to various other hard alloys to
make it more machinable, but why are these (modern) people adding it
to their cookpots? Are they casting the pots and then machining them?
If so, is this a period practice? If not, why not make our own pots,
that would be period correct? Bronze doesn't require the temps that
iron does to cast, and many of the alloya are easily forged. In fact,
the bronze alloys that have lead in them are the ones you distinctly
DON'T want to forge because the crumble into a pile of sand if you
don't use the exactly correct temperature. >>>

Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 09:43:21 -0800 
From: Glenn Gorsuch <ggorsuch at gmail.com> 
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org 
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Chafing dish images 

Another source for images and other information on period chafing dishes 
would be Peter Brears' _Cooking and Dining in Medieval England_.  Lots of 
drawings of survivng artifacts and depictions from period sources, in the 
chapter on cooking equipment.  It seems they were used for both keeping 
prepared food warm and for small-scale cooking at table, and if my poor 
abused brain remembers correctly they used either wood or charcoal, with a 
burner, in a dish, with a pan over-top.  Probably an evolution of the whole 
pot-and-brandreth over a fire thing--just made small and somewhat 
portable. 
 
Gwyn

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:26:17 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <dailleurs at liripipe.com>
To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron
	cookware

On the reactivity of brass and bronze cauldrons....

My discussions with the nice boys at Hampton Court, who use cast bronze
cauldrons all the time is that the food does NOT turn out tasting nasty as
long as you don't let it sit. Apparently the magics of thermodynamics means
that as long as the food is heating inside the pot, the energy required for
the chemical reaction is used up. 

If you remember, a fair number of recipes specify that you are to cook the
dish, then transfer to a clean plate. According to the Hampton Court fellas,
this serves to keep that unfortunate taste thing from happening. 

Neat, huh? :)

Certainly if the archeological record is to be considered, the majority of
cookware was cast bronze (cast by bell makers, perhaps?), fabricated tinned
vessels and ceramics. I have used all three in re-enactment settings to good
results :).

--Anne-Marie

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:10:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: wheezul at canby.com
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron
	cookware

I recently went on a journey of pots and pans and spent some time looking
at German 16th century inventories to get an idea of how a house might be
outfited for culinary purposes.  I just want to say up front that my
examination so far has just been scratching at the surface, but I would
like to do more follow up.   I have a love of kitchen gadgets!

I'd agree with Anne-Marie - the inventories confirm that most implements
were brass, bronze and ceramic, with a great deal of pewter ware for
service.  However, iron kettles and pans do pop up with some frequency. 
However, the inventories so far have not revealed if they are forged,
riveted, or of cast iron.

And then there was an interesting reference I think in the book below
which has a line drawing of a cast iron kettle or pot dating from the late
medieval period.  I wish I had kept or could find my notes - I seem to
recall that the pot was in a museum in Scotland.

Irons in the fire : a history of cooking equipment /
http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/12453278

I also scanned these books for information:

English bronze cooking vessels and their founders, 1350-1830 /
http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/53459205

Les objets de la vie domestique : ustensiles en fer de la cuisine et du
foyer des origines au XIXe siecle /
http://portlandstate.worldcat.org/oclc/299756011

Has anyone worked on an annotated bibliography of cooking equipment?

Katherine

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 16:30:18 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron
	cookware

I have several books on kitchen equipment. Inc. Irons in the Fire.
There's Yarwood, a shire album or two, let's see what else...
I have several of Peter Brears' pottery volumes; several on silverware, etc. grates, spit irons, etc.

(has anyone checked Brears' books for cast iron references?)
Stuart Press has two volumes.
Cookery Techniques and Equipment 1580-1660	Stuart Peachey		
Volume 1: Fuel and cooking methods and equipment including ovens, roasting, boiling, grilling etc.			?7
Volume 2: Food preparation methods and equipment including grinding, sorting, drying, cutting, colouring etc.

Prospect Books also has books that might be of interest. However, the books are at home and I am on the road.

Bibliography? YES
I did a readers guide several years back on equipment. It would have to be redone. 

Have you checked Dame Katja's paper?
http://www.katjaorlova.com/MedievalKitchenEquipment.htm

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:02:55 -0600
From: Susan Lin <susanrlin at gmail.com>
To: dailleurs at liripipe.com, 	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] ISO resources for history of cast iron
	cookware

Not a brass cauldron but a bronze one:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=88368

We were looking at getting one a few years ago and then life got in the way
- this site used to have pictures.

Shoshanah

Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 20:22:50 -0600
From: Sayyeda al-Kaslaania <samia at idlelion.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Al-Andalus griddle tool?

Does anyone know what this special griddle tool might be?
-Sayyeda al-Kaslaania

/Kuna-fa/: Griddle Cakes [all typos mine]

 Put the special griddle for cooking /kun//a-fa/ on a fire of small 
coals with no flame. When it is very hot, grease [the griddle] using a 
clean piece of cloth soaked in sweet oil and pour over it a quantity of 
batter sufficient to cover the griddle. Leave [it] on the fire long 
enough for the cake to cook, then remove it and put it on a plate. 
Continue with the rest of the batter, each time greasing the griddle 
with the oiled piece of fabric and peeling off the cake with a knife.

Then melt a quarter pound of butter or /samn/ with two pounds of honey 
and mix them. One may add some pepper to this mixture of butter and 
honey, using it to moisten the cakes, which are eaten warm.

For this preparation, /samn/ is preferred to butter.

If one wishes to preserve [the /kuna-fa/], it is necessary to cut them 
with scissors into the very narrow strips and cook them for a long time 
in clarified honey in a new pan. When the strips of cake are nearly 
firm, moisten them with /samn/ or oil as one does in the case of a 
/thar//i-d/. When [the /samn/] has been fully absorbed, take [the 
strips] off the fire and remove them from the pan so that they will be 
ready to serve. They are eaten either hot or cold. Before serving, 
sprinkle [them] with sugar and cinnamon, and eat, if God wills it.

 -Andalusian, compiled at Murcia. Thirteenth century. /Kit//a-b 
Fad//a-lat al-khiw//a-n f//i- tayyib//a-t al-ta'//a-m wa-l-alw//a-n/ 
("Book of the Excellent Table Composed of the Best Foods and the Best 
Dishes"). As it appears in Zaouali, Lilia and M.B. DeBevoise (trans.). 
/Medieval Cuisine of the Islamic World: A Concise History with 174 
Recipes/. Berkley: Univ of California Press, 2007: p 137.

Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2012 21:59:55 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Al-Andalus griddle tool?

<<< Does anyone know what this special griddle tool might be?
-Sayyeda al-Kaslaania >>>

The modern version looks like a pizza pan if this can be believed. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanafeh

Bear

Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:31:24 -0500
From: Sharon Palmer <ranvaig at columbus.rr.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Al-Andalus griddle tool?

<<< The modern version looks like a pizza pan if this can be believed. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanafeh >>>

I think that is a finished dish using the pastry.  It also says this 
"Kanafeh is made by drizzling a row of thin streams of 
flour-and-water batter onto a turning hot plate, so they dry into 
long threads resembling shredded wheat. The threads are then 
collected into skeins."

This shows making the actual pastry. 

http://gulfnews.com/in-focus/ramadan/tasteful-art-of-kunafa-making-all-but-lost-1.675319

I've never used kunafa myself, but modern recipes describe it as 
being soft like unbaked filo dough.  In fact shredded filo is 
suggested as a substitution, although it has a slightly different 
texture.

Ranvaig

Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 22:52:35 +1030
From: "Claire Clarke" <angharad at adam.com.au>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks]  Torta reform

From: Alexander Clark <alexbclark at pennswoods.net>

*snip*

The pan is a "padella", and the only sense I've found for this is "frying
pan". If it's used as a frying pan, then the crusts have to be cooked in the
oil without the filling. I would guess that the result should resemble
either a tortilla, or a medieval English cruste rolle (cro?te roul?). Then
you can stack up the cooked crusts, mix the filling, and layer the filling
with the crusts with a crust at the bottom and at the top. And whatever the
translation in The Medieval Kitchen implies, the original never says
anything about a sequence for putting in the different filling ingredients.
It says nothing about whether or not the filling is mixed. In fact, after
the part about how to have the filling ingredients prepared it only refers
to the filling once, briefly and elliptically, to imply that it goes between
the crusts. So by default I infer that the same mixed filling is put in
between any number of crusts.

*snip*

Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark
------------------------------
A padella kind of was a frying pan, but it was more generally a wide,
shallow pan (the padelle depicted by Scappi don't even have long handles
like frying pans do, but that was a century later), and was very commonly
used for cooking tarts. Padelle usually came with a lid and when cooking
tarts one would put them into the coals and pile coals on the lid too. The
instructions here are not very different from those given for other tarts
(which are often along the lines of 'make a crust in a padella'), and these
often include instructions for oiling or greasing the padella first, so I
don't see any reason to interpret this as more like a pancake than a fairly
standard tart crust.  

Angharad

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	utensils-msg	Page  of