artichokes-msg - 3/17/20

Period artichokes. Recipes. Cardoons.

NOTE: See also the files: vegetables-msg, root-veg-msg, asparagus-msg, onions-msg, salads-msg, eggplant-msg, mushrooms-msg, peas-msg, beans-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 10:18:44 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
>European recipes with these?

There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into
existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what foods
are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the artichoke was
bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.

There are two recipes in the Andalusian cookbook which Charles Perry (the
translator) thinks refer to cardoons, but might conceivably be intended for
artichokes. They are:

Preparing a Dish With Cardoon

Take meat and cut it up, wash and put in the pot and pour over enough water
to cover. Put in the pot one spoon of oil, two of murri and one of
clarified butter, and soaked garbanzos, chopped onion and coriander seed.
Peel the cardoons, boil and cut up and throw pepper in the pot with them,
and when they are cooked, take two eggs and bread crumbs, cover the
contents of the pot well and leave over the coals until the grease comes
out, God willing.

Preparing a Dish of Cardoons with Meat

Take meat and cut it up, put in the pot with water, salt, two spoons of
murri, one of vinegar and another of oil, pepper, caraway and coriander
seed. Put on the fire, and when it is cooked, wash the cardoons, boil, cut
up small and throw over the meat. Boil a little, and cover the contents of
the pot with two eggs and bread crumbs, and sprinkle pepper on it in the
platter, God willing.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 09:20:45 +1000 (EST)
From: The Cheshire Cat <sianan at geocities.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

>Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
>European recipes with these?

I have seen a referance to artichokes on the food table in the form of a
still life by Osias Beert (c. 1580 - 1624).  This shows a young artichoke
ready to be eaten. Rather scant documentation I know, but it's all I have.
   I also have one recipe for artichokes, however I have as yet failed
locate the original from my file.  Here it is already redacted though.

Artichokes in cream sauce.

6 globe artichokes
300ml cream
1/2 tsp nutmeg
1 blade mace
1 tsp sugar
salt, pepper, lemon juice to taste
Fresh mint and 2 cloves garlic if liked
A knob of butter

  Discard the coarse outer leaves of the artichoke, peel the stems and cook
the whole heads in salted water with a little mint and garlic, until
tender. Drain and cool.  Remove the leaves, scraping away the flesh at the
bottom of each one.  Cut off the stems and chop, keeping the bits to one
side.

  Remove the hairy chokes and keep the bottoms.  Heat the cream with the
spices and sugar until almost boiling, then beat in the butter and add a
little lemon juice to taste.  Warn the artichoke bottoms through in the
sauce, taking care not to boil.  Season the flesh from the leaves and warm
through.  Pile this in the middle of your serving dish and pour the bottoms
in their sauce around it.  Serve garnished with sprigs of mint.

  I'll post the original when I find it.

- -Sianan

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 00:19:15 +0500
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes?

And it came to pass on 31 Aug 98, that david friedman wrote:
> At 12:32 AM -0500 8/31/98, Stefan li Rous wrote:
> >Are there medieval recipes using artichokes? Artichoke hearts? Are there any
> >European recipes with these?
>
> There seems some disagreement as to when the artichoke came into
> existence--I discuss the question in the Miscellany article on what
> foods are appropriate for period feasts. My own opinion is that the
> artichoke was bred out of the Cardoon sometime during our period.

The _Arte Cisoria_ by Enrique de Villena, is a 1423 Spanish carving
manual.  It mentions both artichokes and cardoons.  In discussing how
to carve artichokes, the author specifies that they are to be cut
"like the other cardoons".

No recipes are given, as this is not a cookbook, per se, but de
Villena mentions that artichokes can be served boiled or "adobado"
(pickled).

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain of Tethba
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
mka Robin Carroll-Mann *** harper  at  idt.net

Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 19:12:33 -0500
From: Mike and Pat Luco <mikel at pdq.net>
Subject: SC - Re: SC: artichokes

In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL).  They use young
artichokes, not the full ones like you find commercially.  This makes them tender and easily edible (YUM)  They even stuff them with spec(?)( a type of italian bacon, which they have many types) and bread crumbs with lots of butter.  You eat the whole thing with the exception of the points on larger leaves.

Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 22:26:38 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - artichokes-warning

mikel at pdq.net writes:
<< In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>

Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke
maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can
literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed. The preojectiles also can, and
do, stick into your tongue, roof of your mouth  and cheeks breaking off their
tips and causing excruciating pain.

Eating choke fuzz is one of those things that you must be experienced in
determining when the safety factor is surpasssed or have someone who knows
what they're doing teach you the proper age of the artichoke.

Ras

Date: Wed, 2 Sep 1998 06:13:59 -0500
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning

> << In Italy currently they eat the whole artichoke (fuzz and ALL). >>
>
> Please do not try this at home, folks. A VERY, VERY, VERY young artichoke
> maybe, but the fuzz in the center of the artichoke is needle sharp and can
> literally 'choke' you to death if swallowed.
>
> Ras

IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing
artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American
artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the
European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is
not.

Bear

Date: Thu, 03 Sep 1998 09:35:20 +0100
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: RE: SC - artichokes-warning

Bear wrote
>IIRC, sometime ago, one of the cooking shows (Jeff Smith?) was doing
>artichokes and stated that the European artichokes and the American
>artichokes were two different but related plants. Apparently the fuzz of the
>European artichoke is edible, where the fuzz of the American artichoke is
>not.

As far as I am aware there is only one species, but there are certainly
several varieties (they are related to thistles incidentally).

If they are big - fist sized - I remove the choke because I don't like
eating prickles. If you miss a few they have an unpleasant texture but no
other side effects (and I've eating a few). If they are small - walnut sized
up to 2" - I don't bother. In between? depends how mature they look - after
a while you can tell by the colour and shape of the leaves, but I don't
think I could describe the difference :)

Rowan

Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 19:42:39 -0400
From: mermayde at juno.com (Christine A Seelye-King)
Subject: SC - Artichoke Recipies

        Well, I was shopping tonight and found artichokes for .99 each, so I snapped some up. (Go ahead and scoff, but this is the best price I've seen for these this year.)  I have boiled them as usual, and have made my standard curried mayonnaise*, and I thought, 'You know, we were talking about artichokes on the Cook's List a while ago, and I saved some period recipies for them, why don't I do something like that for the event tomorow?' So, I went looking, and only found two, one for the bases served in a cream sauce, and one from Cariadoc about Meat with Cardoons.

        Didn't we have something resembling a vinaigrette, or am I imagining things?        

Christianna

Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:07:23 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Is tarragon period?

When artichokes appear seems at least mildly controversial. The Romans had
something they called "cynara," but some authorities think it was the
Cardoon. There seems to be some evidence that the artichoke was bred out of
the Cardoon in al-Andalus during SCA period, which would make it period for
at least the later centuries.

And I have both artichokes and cardoons growing in my garden. If the
cardoons grow enough I may even try eating them--the leaves are supposed to
be edible.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 21:45:53 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

Stefan li Rous wrote:

> There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is
> European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in
> the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",
> right?

Not around here! Generally in my experience, a 'Jerusalem Artichoke'
(which a sort of starchy tuber-oid thing) is clearly labelled such. It
looks _nothing_ like a standard artichoke. Standard artichokes are
usually about the size of a softball, and look like giant thistle heads-
which, of course, is what they are. They are green. Jerusalem artichokes
are brown. They are nothing alike and are not interchangable. I don't
know why the name is the way it is.
 
Artichokes are steamed or boiled, and then you dip the leaves (in melted
butter or mayonnaise, sometimes with lemon juice), and drag the inner
side of the leaves over your bottom teeth, scraping off the soft flesh.
All too delicious... *sigh* why do I feel like I've been writing soft
core? ;-)

'Lainie

Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 22:12:34 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

At 11:18 PM -0500 8/29/00, Stefan li Rous wrote:
>Ras declared:
>>  melcnewt at netins.net writes:
>>  << ow are these Jerusalem artichokes  >>
>>
>>  Jerusalem artichokes are new world.
>
>There do appear to be at least two types of artichokes. One is
>European and one is American. From this, I imagine what I see in
>the vegetable counters here in the US is the "Jerusalem artichoke",
>right?

Wrong.

Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower 
("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at 
a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold 
under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is 
always sold under the full name.

Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got 
called an artichoke at all?

>Has anyone here tried both of
>these? Perhaps using the same recipe? Master Cariadoc? If so, how much
>differance is there between them?

As much as between lettuce and potato.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:19:34 -0000
From: "Nanna Rognvaldardottir" <nanna at idunn.is>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

Cariadoc wrote:
>Does anyone know why the entirely different American vegetable got
>called an artichoke at all?

Probably because the first European who described them (Samuel de Champlain,
who encountered them on Cape Cod in 1605) thought they tasted like artichokes
(or cardoons, which are related to artichokes). Champlain and Marc Lescarbot
returned to France in 1607 and seem to have brought the vegetable back with
them. Ten years later, Lescarbot wrote that the roots were so popular in
France that "today all the gardens are full of them".

Now the Jerusalem part is much more interesting. It is possibly a corruption
of Italian "girasole" (sunflower). The alternative theory is that Jerusalem
is a corruption of Terneuzen - a town in the Netherlands where artichokes
were grown in the early 17th century - a Dutch book of 1618 says the tuber
is known in the Netherlands as the "artichoke-apple of Ter Neusen".

The French name topinambour is actually the name of a Brazilian tribe - some
natives were brought to Paris in 1613, probably arrived at the same time as
the tuber was first seen in significiant quantities in the street markets,
and somehow the Indians and the new vegetable were mixed up, so for
centuries it was commonly believed that the topinambour came from South
America (in France at least - don’t know if this was also believed in
England, for instance).

Nanna

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:37:23 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

david friedman wrote: 
> Jerusalem artichoke is the root of a sunflower
> ("Girasol"="Jerusalem"). The bud of a giant thistle, eaten a leaf at
> a time with melted butter or mayonaise, is artichoke--and is sold
> under that name in the U.S. Jerusalem artichoke, in my experience, is
> always sold under the full name.

Jerusalem artichokes are always, AFAIK, sold either with the adjective
"Jerusalem" or under the name "sunchokes", and never called simply
"artichokes". Unqualified artichokes are green and thistly-looking, and
are, well, artichokes. However, sometimes stores that sell both use the
qualifier of "globe artichokes" to distinguish them from "Jerusalem artichokes".
  
Adamantius

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 09:46:57 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

European artichokes or Globe artichokes are flower buds. They are green and 
consist of overlapping scales. 

ar*ti*choke (noun)
[Italian dialect articiocco, ultimately from Arabic al-khurshuf the  
artichoke]
First appeared 1530
 1 : a tall composite herb (Cynara scolymus) like a thistle with coarse  
pinnately incised leaves; also : its edible immature flower head which is  
cooked as a vegetable
***

Jerusalem artichokes are tubers which are cream colored and similar in 
appearance to a skinless extremely knotty potato.

Je*ru*sa*lem artichoke (noun)
[Jerusalem by folk etymology from Italian girasole girasole]
First appeared 1641
 : a perennial American sunflower (Helianthus tuberosus) widely cultivated 
for its tubers that are used as a vegetable and as a livestock feed

Ras

Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:41:02 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

It's worth noting that although cardoons are closely related to 
artichokes (the plant looks like an artichoke on steroids, with 
miniature artichokes on it), what people normally eat is the leaf of 
the cardoon not (as with the artichoke) the bud. So a cardoon recipe 
would be quite different from a modern artichoke recipe.
- -- 
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2000 21:27:47 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - artichokes

stefan at texas.net writes:
<< Now "Peel the cardoons"  >>

When you cut a cardoon the stalk will string like a stalk of old celery or 
peel down like a stalk of rhubarb. That is what is meant by 'peel,' IMO.

Ras

Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 18:34:50 GMT
From: orion at mailbag.com
Subject: SC - More Fuel for the Cardoon Fire

More than you ever wanted to know about Cardoons...
http://www.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/mod03/01701432.html

Alex

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:36:46 -0600
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke Pie

I've been playing in the kitchen again.

Bear

To Make an Artichoak Pye.  Take the bottoms of six Artichoaks Boyled very
tender, put them in a dish, and some Vinegar over them.  Season them with
Ginger and Sugar, a little Mace Whole, and put them in a Coffin of Paste.
When you lay them in, lay some Marrow and Dates slices, and a few Raisons of
the Sun in the bottom with a good store of butter.  When it is half baked,
take a Gill of Sack, being boyled first with Sugar and a peel of Orange.
Put it into the Pye, and set it in the oven again, till you use it.

attributed to Hugh Platt, The Accomplisht Ladys Delight

1  8 or 9 inch pie shell
1 14 ounce can quartered artichoke hearts
2 Tablespoons of cider vinegar
1 teaspoon ginger
4 Tablespoons of sugar
1/2 teaspoon mace
1 teaspoon grated orange peel
1/4 cup raisins
1/2 cup chopped or sliced dates
2 Tablespoons of butter
1 Tablespoon of marrow (optional)
1 Cup Dry Sherry

Blind bake the pie shell 350 degrees F for 10 minutes.

Mix vinegar, one tablespoon of sugar, ginger and mace in a bowl.
Drain and rinse the artichoke hearts.  Add to the vinegar mixture and turn
to coat thoroughly.  Let stand for a half hour.
Put the Dry Sherry, three tablespoons of sugar, and the orange peel in a
small sauce pan and bring to a boil.  Cook to form a thin syrup.
Mix the date and raisins and spread them in the bottom of the pie shell.
Add the marrow.
Spread the artichoke hearts on top of the dates, raisins and marrow.
Dot the top of the pie with butter.
Pour the Sherry syrup over the artichokes.
Cover with aluminum foil and bake at 350 degrees F for 30 minutes.

Notes:
Pie shell was a standard 3-2-1 dough.
Canned artichokes were used because they were available.
I had ground mace available.  It was a little old.  Fresh mace might require
less.
The marrow was left off, as I was preparing the pie for a vegetarian.
I am considering making the syrup thicker.
I am considering baking the fruit for fifteen minutes then adding the syrup
to see what changes occur in the texture.
The aluminum foil keeps the crust from burning and helps the pie retain
moisture.
The dish is palatable cold, but I prefer it warm.

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke Pie
Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 20:17:35 -0600

>The recipe says "a little Mace Whole". What is meant by "Whole" in
>this? It's probably not the whole nut since the outside is nutmeg
>and the inside is mace, right? Is "whole" just being ignored in
>this redaction?

Nutmeg is the seed.  Mace is a covering that wraps the nutmeg.  Both are
inside of a pod or fruit.  Blade or whole mace are the inner covering
removed from the nutmeg and dried.  I used ground mace because I had no
blade mace.

>And are "Raisons of the Sun" actually just raisins? Why the "of the
>Sun"? Were grapes also dried in ovens? Or were there other fruits
>than the grape that when dried were called "raisins"?
>
>Thanks,
>  Stefan

Modernly the term raisin means a dried grape, but it derives from the Latin
"racemus" meaning "bunch of grapes."  In Middle English or Old French the
term appears to have been used to describe grapes, while "raisin of the sun"
is "dried grape."  I haven't chased the derivation fully so take that
commentary with a grain of salt.

Bear

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 08:29:31 -0400
From: Jane Boyko <jboyko at magma.ca>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used
by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st
century.  (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will
quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such
vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...."  
(p91).

As to the Jerusalem Artichoke it seems to be a new world plant.  First
mention of it is in 1609 when the Virginia colony finds that its' food stocks
have run low.  Survivors take on different tasks (i.e. hunting, fishing and
gathering) of which they gather "...Jerusalem artichokes and other wild
plants" (p113).  It is again mentioned in 1616 with the French explorer
Samuel de Champlain.  He introduces the Jerusalem artichoke to France in
1616.  At first it is known as the Canadian artichoke, the earth pear  
etc.
There is absolutely no mention of how the Jerusalem artichoke became  
known as the Jerusalem artichoke.

Okay, I have become too curious.

Here is an interesting url that recounts some of the history and  
naming of the Jerusalem artichoke.  http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch26.html

Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:
Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)
Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)
Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).

Hope this helps and clears up some of the questions surrounding  
artichokes.

Marina

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 11:06:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Trager is a bad source to quote without deeper investigation.  He does not
differentiate between fact, suppositions and apocryphal tales.  I 
generally use Trager as a starting point for further research.

A quick check of the Penguin Pliny shows no reference to artichokes or
cardoons, however it is an abridged edition and a complete reference may
show something.  Any of the comments about the "cooks Catherine de Medici
brought to France with her" is immediately suspect.  She was from a branch
of the Medicis with reduced fortunes from having been run out of Florence by
civil unrest.  Most of the retinue at her marriage belonged to her Uncle,
the Pope.  And it was not until her Regency for her son that she gained any
real power in France.

I think you may find the Jerusalem artichoke referenced in Thomas Hariot's A
Briefe and True Report of the New Found Land in Virginia (1588), but not
under that name.

The Flower and Rosenbaum edition of Apicius identifies the artichoke
referenced by the term "Carduus" as being Cynara cardunculus, the cardoon,
although they believe it to be "a species of globe artichoke."

The web site fails to provide particulars about where they got much of their
information, making it difficult to verify their history.  It should be
taken with a grain of salt.

Bear

> In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used
> by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st
> century.  (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will
> quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such
> vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...." (p91).
>
> As to the Jerusalem Artichoke it seems to be a new world plant.  First
> mention of it is in 1609 when the Virginia colony finds that its' food stocks
> have run low.  Survivors take on different tasks (i.e. hunting, fishing and
> gathering) of which they gather "...Jerusalem artichokes and other wild
> plants" (p113).  It is again mentioned in 1616 with the French explorer
> Samuel de Champlain.  He introduces the Jerusalem artichoke to France in
> 1616.  At first it is known as the Canadian artichoke, the earth pear etc.
> There is absolutely no mention of how the Jerusalem artichoke became 
> known as the Jerusalem artichoke.
>
>
> Here is an interesting url that recounts some of the history and 
> naming of
> the Jerusalem artichoke.  
> http://www.vegparadise.com/highestperch26.html
>
> Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:
> Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)
> Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)
> Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).
>
> Hope this helps and clears up some of the questions surrounding 
> artichokes.
>
> Marina

Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:22:55 -0700
From: david friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Middle Eastern Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> In "The Food Chronology" by James Trager he notes that the artichoke is used
> by the Romans.  He quotes Pliny's "Historia Naturalis".  This is in the 1st
> century.  (p31)   The next mention of the artichoke is in 1533 and I will
> quote here  "Cooks attending Catherine de' Medici introduce to France such
> vegetables as broccoli, globe artichokes ... fonds d'artichauts...." (p91).

The problem is distinguishing references to the cardoon from
references to the artichoke. While I gather some people still
interpret the classical references as describing artichokes, the more
common view seems to be that Latin "cynara" etc. refer to the
cardoon. Apicius actually uses "carduos."

The plants are very similar--cardoons look like artichoke plants on
steroids (I have both growing here). But the "artichoke" part of the
cardoon is very small--you can boil it and eat it, but nobody but my
children would bother. What you eat is the stalk. My understanding is
that none of the classical references describe eating the flower bud,
the way you do with an artichoke, and some refer to eating the stalk.

> Also if you check out Apicius there are three recipes using artichokes:
> Artichokes with Fish-pickle dressing (Carduos)
> Artichokes with Hot Herb dressing (Aliter carduos)
> Cumin spiced artichokes (Aliter carduos elixos - steamed artichokes).

Reading the recipes, they sound rather more consistent with cardoons
(cook the stalk as an edible vegetable) than with artichokes.
--  
David/Cariadoc
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 13:24:20 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

There was a question from Cassie about artichoke recipes, and some 
pondering from Duke Cariadoc about whether artichokes were found 
earlier in period than the 1500s.

According to this essay by Clifford A. Wright, the experts are somewhat 
certain that the artichoke was cultivated from the wild cardoon, 
possibly by the Berbers, and that at least by 1536, they were known in 
Italy, although one writer at the time in Venice asserts that 
artichokes could only be found in the gardens of the Moorish quarter.

http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/artichoke.html

There seem to be a lot of interesting books in Mr. Wright's 
bibliography for this essay, but most are in French, Latin, and 
Spanish. I wonder if any of them have been translated into English.

What's really confusing for me is that my Sicilian grandmother 
interchangeably used "artichoke" and "cardoon" to refer to the 
globe-style vegetable we are familiar with. But with cardoons, you eat 
the stems, not the bracts.

Gianotta

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:04:45 -0700
From: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Our garden has a couple of cardoon plants.  We've tried to eat the stems a
couple of time but found them extremely bitter.  What are we doing
wrong?  Secondary use:  cut the flowers with a long stem as soon as they
are fully open, place dry in a vase or hang upside down.  They dry  
quickly and last for a long time.

Simon Sinneghe
Briaroak, Summits, An Tir

Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:05:41 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cardoons vs. artichokes
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> Our garden has a couple of cardoon plants.  We've tried to eat the
> stems a couple of time but found them extremely bitter.  What are we
> doing wrong?

To begin with, you have to get them reasonably young. Beyond that,
you are supposed to pull out the fibers. If you do a web search for
"cardoon," you should be able to find modern recipes with the
relevant information.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:49:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Artichoke recipe (was re: Cardoons vs.
	artichokes)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

-Gisnotta mentioned:
> What's really confusing for me is that my Sicilian grandmother
> interchangeably used "artichoke" and "cardoon" to refer to the
> globe-style vegetable we are familiar with. But with cardoons, you eat
> the stems, not the bracts.

Huh? What are part of the plant are the "bracts"?

Stefan
--------
My lord, in an artichoke the bracts are the fleshy leaf-like parts of 
the plant that we eat. In any flowering plant, the bracts are the 
leaves at the bases of the flowers. In artichoke or cardoon, the bracts 
are numerous.

Someone had asked why the cardoons they have eaten from their garden 
are stringy and bitter. First, you have to eat them young; don't try 
and eat them when the plant gets really big. Second, you have to remove 
the "strings" from the stems as part of the preparation; strip them 
out.

And here's a favorite Christmas Eve artichoke recipe from my family. 
It's simple and tasty and I gorge myself near to exploding on them. I 
don't think it's period, per se, but it's a good finger food.

Artichoke heart frittate

Ingredients:

Two cans of artichoke hearts, rinsed to make them less salty, and 
well-drained.
Two or three beaten eggs
Breadcrumbs (I like Cento or Progresso, but you could make your own if 
inclined -- just make sure there's a good bit of grated Parmesan or 
Romano cheese in there)
Olive oil for frying

In a large skillet, heat the olive oil to frying temperature. Take a 
drained artichoke heart, dip it in the beaten egg, then roll it in the 
breadcrumbs until well-coated, then place in the skillet. Put in the 
hot oil; repeat until you have a skillet full, and fry until browned. 
Drain the breaded, fried artichoke hearts on paper towels. Serve at 
room temperature as an appetizer with lemon wedges.

Gianotta

Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2004 09:18:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] roast turkey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> I would point out that there are a number of cardoon recipes in Apicius
> which would certainly apply to the artichoke.  Apicius may be 1st Century,
> but extant copies of it certainly fall within SCA period.  As Latin had no
> word for the artichoke, carduus would have been used for both plants.

Here is a reference from the Harvard Common Press, which seems to 
support the notion that Apicius'
"Artichoke" was very likely a cardoon:

"Professor Andrew Watson, following the botanist Georges Gibault, 
claimed that the artichoke was
developed from the cardoon; that only the cardoon was known in the 
Greco-Roan world, designated
by names such as kaktos, cynara, carduus, scolymus, and spondylium; and 
that there is no reference
in classical literature to a plant of this family with edible flesh on 
the bracts. Although J.
André suggests that several Roman authors may have referred to the 
artichoke (or the cardoon)
using the word carduus, two of the most important authors, Palladius 
and Pliny, say nothing that
would make one think that the plant is not the cardoon. A recipe found 
in the Roman author
Apicius’scookbook sounds as if it was meant for the soft stems of the 
cardoon rather than for the
artichoke. Theophrastos says explicitly that the stem of the kaktos is 
eaten, so almost certainly
he was referring to the cardoon. He goes on to mention another 
“tistle,” the pternix, which has
an edible receptacle but inedible bracts. "

Furthermore:

"It is impossible to tell whether the kharshuf used in the 
thirteenth-century Hispano-Muslim
cookery book the Kitab al-tabakh fi al-Magrib wa’l-Andalus was an 
artchoke or a cardoon. In any
case, other early cookery manuscripts such as the fourteenth-century Le 
ménagier de Paris, the
anonymous Italian Libro di cucina, and the Viandier of Taillevent 
conspicuously do not mention
artichokes."

> From this information, I assume that the Artichoke, though cultivated 
> in Italy during SCA period, was not a 'mainstream' item.

William de Gradfort

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 10:57:36 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

The source of this section for all those wondering about the
Harvard Common Press source is
Clifford Wright's book Mediterranean Vegetables, 2001.

Johnnae

Chris Stanifer wrote:
> Here is a referene from the Harvard Common Press, which seems to 
> support the notion that Apicius' "Artichoke" was very likely a cardoon:
>
> "Professor Andrew Watson, following the botanist Georges Gibault, 
> claimed that the artichoke was
> developed from the cardon; that only the cardoon was known in the 
> Greco-Roman world, designated
> by names such as kaktos, cynara, carduus, scolymus, and spondylium; 
> and that there is no reference
> in classical literature to a plant of this family with edible flesh on 
> he bracts. snipped
>
>> From this information, I assume that the Artichoke, though cultivated 
>> in Italy during SCA period, was not a 'mainstream' item.
>
> William de Gradfort

Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 11:05:20 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

If one continues reading in the same entry, one also finds that Wright mentions
the following as regards artichokes.

The nineteenth-century Italian botanist Targioni-Tozzetti describes the introduction of the artichoke to Tuscany around 1466, pointing out that Mattioli said it was brought to Naples from Sicily. As far as an early European distinction between the cardoon and the artichoke, the French historian Henri Bresc cites evidence of the artichoke being grownin the gardens of Norman Sicily 
(1091–1194); the documents distinguish the plant from the cardoon.
Ermolao Barbaro, in his In Dioscoridem corollariorum libri quinque, finally published in 1530, writes that at the end of the fifteenth century artichokes were not always available in Italy; the implication may be that they were not particularly esteemed at that time. The artichoke, he said, speaking of Venice, is found only in the foreign gardens in the Moorish quarter.
The artichoke was brought to the New Wrld by the French and Spanish colonizers in the sixteenth century.  Today the Mediterranean and California are the major producers of artichokes.

Wright does not include or list Scappi as a source by the way.

Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 08:35:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote was roast turkey
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

--- Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu> wrote:
> Ermolao Barbaro, in his In Dioscoridem corollariorum libri quinque,
> finally published in 1530, writes that at the end of the fifteenth
> century artichokes
> ere not always available in Italy; the implication may be that they were not
> particularly esteemed at that time. The artichoke, he said, speaking of
> Venice, is found only in the foreign gardens in the Moorish quarter.

There it is.  That was the articular quote which gave me the  impression that the artichoke was not a 'mainstream' or commonly used item in SCA period.  The impression  that it was grown only in selective gardens further impresses that it may have been more of a  cultural favorite, which didn't take well with the common man of Western Europe.  I may, in  fact, be mistaken about this, but that is the impression I am getting.  As always, if there is  further proof that the artichoke (and not the cardoon being mislabeled as an artichok) was more  prevailant in period, I'd love to see it.  I do likes me some artichokes.... ;)

William de Grandfort
Norman Invader

Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 14:29:25 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: artichoke quote
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> --- Terry Decker <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>> If, as The Cambridge World History of food states, that the Ancient Romans
>> ate artichokes and brought them to the British Isles, your thesis doesn't
>> hold water.
>
> That reference may be a mistake.  The jury is still out on this one.  The
> 'artichoke' of ancient Rome may well have been a cardoon...
>
> William de Grandfort

Yes the jury is still out, which is why one should not accept the passage of
Clifford Wright's you quoted as authority.  It avoids a number of linguistic
issues and opposing opinions, so Wright may be in error as much as you
believe the editors of The Cambridge World History of Food may be in error.

For example, Geffory Grigson in A Dictionary of English Plant Names suggests
that the cardoon was cultivated from the artichoke.  The Oxford Book of Food
Plants states that the globe artichoke was known to the Ancient Greeks and
Romans.  These sources are as authoritative and scholarly as Wright and they
disagree with his position.  Are they also mistaken?  I haven't checked
Fuchs yet or a number of other sources which I will as time permits.

At least one opinion is the artichoke is of Sicilian origin or that it is of
Carthaginian origin and transplanted to Sicily.  Not much evidence pro or
con, but it fits the timeline.  I like the argument, but I haven't put it to
the test.

What is obvious to me is the subject of artichokes deserves some serious
research into the sources of current opinion rather than authoritative
pronuncements based on absent, incomplete or erroneous sources with
argumentative contexts we don't understand.

Bear

Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 14:04:46 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More Artichoke/Cardoon
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach lilinah at earthlink.net:
> According to
> http://gears.tucson.ars.ag.gov/book/chap6/artichoke.html
>
> "Cardoon (Cynara cardunculus L.) is similar to artichoke except that
> it is spiny and more robust. It is cultivated, on a much smaller
> scale than artichoke, for its edible root and thickened leafstalk.
> The inflorescence and pollination relationships are similar to
> artichoke (Bailey 1949*)."
>
> At a cooking workshop at Duke Cariadoc's some among us cooked
> cardoon leaves from His Grace's garden.
>
> But if that quote is true, one eats the roots (and possibly the
> stalk), not the leaves...
>
> Anyone with more experience care to comment?
> --
> Urtatim, formerly Anahita

I'd say that the statement that one eats the leafstalks but not the
leaves is akin to the statement that one eats the leaf base and not
the leaf tips of a mature globe artichoke...

Think of taking a globe artichoke and streee-eee-tching it until it's
as long as a head of celery, but otherwise fairly similar in
structure. That's your cardoon. You still eat the base of the leaves
(the leaf tips are fibrous and don't have much in the way of pulp)
and the "heart", which in the case of real cardoons, is part of the
root.

I don't have a lot of cardoon experience, but I've seen them in
markets, chased people obscenely with them. You know. The usual.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2005 23:51:55 -0700
From: David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] More Artichoke/Cardoon
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> I'd say that the statement that one eats the leafstalks but not the
> leaves is akin to the statement that one eats the leaf base and not
> the leaf tips of a mature globe artichoke...
>
> Think of taking a globe artichoke and streee-eee-tching it until
> it's as long as a head of celery, but otherwise fairly similar in
> structure. That's your cardoon. You still eat the base of the leaves
> (the leaf tips are fibrous and don't have much in the way of pulp)
> and the "heart", which in the case of real cardoons, is part of the
> root.

I do not believe that is correct.

A globe artichoke is a flower bud, not a bunch of leaves. A cardoon
has chokes just like a globe artichoke--but they are tiny. What you
eat are the leaves. The rib portion looks rather like celery.
Artichokes have the same sort of leaves--a cardoon plant looks like
an artichoke on steroids. My guess is that you could eat artichoke
leaves--the rib near the base--too, although I haven't tried.
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com

Date: Mon, 16 May 2005 17:43:44 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Ye old artichoke question (was new world foods;
	old world names)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

<snip>Artichokes are an open question.  Clifford Wright makes a case for
artichokes not being known until very late and that the plant being
referenced is the cardoon.
<snip>
Bear
======================================================================== 
I just re-read Mr. Wright's 1996 essay; his argument was just not that  
the artichoke was known until very late in period, but that the ancient  
Greeks and Romans were probably referencing cardoons. He does seem to  
agree that the Arabs introduced the cultivated artichoke in Italy and  
in Spain. One of the Arabic words for the globe artichoke, kharshuf, is  
reminiscent of the Italian carciofi. His essay did make mention of  
artichokes being grown in the gardens of Norman Sicily.

In reading more of the history of Sicily and southern Italy, I am not  
surprised at all that it took awhile for the artichoke to make its way  
north to Tuscany. There still is cultural bias in the north of Italy  
against the Arabs and anyone generally seen as having Arab blood  
(Sicilians); I can't imagine taking a plant so associated with the  
Arabs and trying to introduce it any earlier than the 1500s would have  
been overwhelmingly successful.

Gianotta

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 13:12:24 -0400
From: Aruvqan Myers <aruvqan at gmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] A Dishe of Artichokes Question

So I am over looking at artichoke recipes and this
Gem <http://medievalcookery.com/recipes/artechokes.html>is causing me a
bit of trouble.

And I quote:
---------
One of the many vegetable dishes served in medieval England, this is
simple to prepare but still delicious and elegant.

10 - 12 artichoke bottoms, cooked
1/2 tsp. pepper
1/2 tsp. cinnamon
1/2 tsp. ginger
2 Tbsp. water
1 Tbsp. large crystal sugar
4 Tbsp. butter
dash vinegar

Mix pepper, cinnamon, and ginger with water. Bring to a boil and remove
from heat. Add artichoke bottoms and allow to marinate for 15 minutes.
Place into baking dish and add butter and vinegar. Bake at 350? for 15
minutes. Sprinkle with sugar and serve.

Source [The Good Huswifes Jewell
<http://www.medievalcookery.com/books.html#GHJ>,
T. Dawson]: *To make a dishe of Artechokes. Take your Artechokes and pare
away all the top even to the meate and boyle them in sweete broth till they
be somewhat tender, then take them out, and put them into a dishe, and
seethe them with Pepper, synamon and ginger, and then put in your dishe
that you meane to bake them in, and put in Marrowe to them good store, and
so let them bake, and when they be baked, put in a little Vinegar and
butter, and sticke three or foure leaves of the Artechoks in the dishe when
you serve them up, and scrape Suger on the dish.*

--------

So how does one seeth a dozen artichoke bases in 2 tablespoons of water?**

I think I would redact it by boiling up a dozen artichokes in a nice
chicken broth [sweet broth to me would mean something that hasn't been used
to boil up puddings for the past few weeks] and eating the leaves while
finishing off the dish [no sense in wasting good leaves] by taking about a
cup of the resulting chicken broth that I had just seethed the artichokes
in and simmering the pepper, cinnamon and ginger [adjusting the seasoning
to taste before chucking in the now prepared artichoke bases]

I think I would actually use marrow - I am not a vegetarian and it has a
good umami content. I would slice the marrow thinly and lay a slice in each
artichoke base, arrange them in an already blind baked shell and bake them
until the marrow is nice and gushy, and then sprinkle them with a nice
mellow wine vinegar mixed with melted butter. I would also make a blind
baked cover for them that is decorated with artichoke motifs and pop it on
over the sugar and decorative few artichok leaves. I think I would actually
lay a pattern of the little light green and purple heart leaves as they are
pretty. The pastry top could get cutwork like the neat Jacobean artichoke
patterns used for embroidery.

Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 11:40:27 -0700
From: "Daniel Myers" <dmyers at medievalcookery.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Dishe of Artichokes Question

-------- Original Message --------
From: Aruvqan Myers <aruvqan at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, September 24, 2013 1:12 pm

So I am over looking at artichoke recipes and this
gem<http://medievalcookery.com/recipes/artechokes.html>is causing me a
bit of trouble.

And I quote:

One of the many vegetable dishes served in medieval England, this is
simple to prepare but still delicious and elegant.

10 - 12 artichoke bottoms, cooked

[...]

So how does one seeth a dozen artichoke bases in 2 tablespoons of water?**
----------------------------------

Since that's my website and recipe, let's see if I can make things
clearer.  

In short, you don't.  The artichoke bottoms are already cooked, as noted
in the ingredients list.  I probably should revisit this recipe (it's
been almost ten years since I posted it) to give a more detailed method.

It can be difficult to find a balance between authenticity and
accessibility, and I suppose I erred on the side of keeping things
simple.  This is also why I omitted the marrow, which can be difficult
to find and can turn off those who are new to medieval cuisine (a
majority of the people using my website).

Of course you are welcome (and encouraged) to come up with your own
interpretation of the recipe.  After all, that's one of the reasons I
include the original source.

- Doc

from the fb :SCA Cooks" group:
Jodie Birdman
March 9 at 5:29 PM
Artichokes. Can we talk about artichokes, please? I was looking at late period (for us) Dutch/Flemish paintings, and you know what was in all the food scenes? Artichokes. Here are just two examples. Very late period, but I didn't want to backtrack, and the thought hit me late in the museum.

I have never, ever seen an artichoke at a feast, nor have I ever talked with anyone about preparing or serving artichokes.
Do any of you have favorite period sources for artichoke recipes? Good experiences? Bad experiences?

Jodie Birdman 
The Gode Cookery has two artichoke recipes. Both essentially have you soften the bottoms, arrange them in a dish (with or without crust) and cover them in fat, sweet things, and nut-based things, then bake, and they're both 17th century. 
http://www.godecookery.com/engrec/engrec66.html
http://www.godecookery.com/engrec/engrec85.html

Anne Young 
“Fabulous Feasts” has a recipe for artichokes stuff with Ryce Royal. Unfortunately there is no citation for the source of the recipe so no proof that it is period. However, the rice stuffing with blueberries and salmon is delicious.

Ciana Scholari 
Scappi has artichoke pie, I've served that, it's great... But it uses hearts, so most folks will eat it vs eating the petals

Jodie Birdman 
Now that you mention it, I think I remember seeing that. I'd ask if it involves a lot of cheese and herbs, but it's Scappi, so... probably.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
The hearts or the chokes?

Brooke White 
“Get artichokes in their season, as is said in the Second Book, on Prepared Dishes, at Recipe 213, and cook them in a meat broth or in salted water. Take the heart, which is their best part, and clean it well. If it is big, slice it and make the crostata or pie of it with the same ingredients as are used with the field mushrooms…” -The Opera of Bartolomeo Scappi, 1570

Jen Small 
Lots of period Italian and Spanish recipes - I never do em coz they're hella expensive :D

Jen Small 
Courtesy of Helewyse DeBirkestad: http://www.medievalcookery.com/helewyse/artichoke.html
Hide or report this
MEDIEVALCOOKERY.COM
The artichoke and cardoon in 16th century Italian cooking

Jodie Birdman 
That is brilliant! The tart of cardoon would even be appropriate right now. I have no idea how or where to get cardoons in northern Germany, but since I generally aim to get people accustomed to vegetable dishes, I'm always looking for new recipes for lent.

Brooke White 
Jodie Birdman german word is Karde and usually they are grown by gardeners rather than commercially, sadly

Donna Green-Tye 
artichoke ... yum yum. I get the little ones and pickle them. As for steaming them quickly (so you can do lots for a feast) apparently a pressure cooker will do them fast. I haven't tried this yet, but as soon as artichoke season starts I will.

Donna Green-Tye One of the Italian sources has a great artichoke pie. I've made it a couple of times and shaped the pastry like the leaves of the artichoke.

Murienne L'aloiere 
Scappi uses them. there is a lovely recipe in Apicius for artichokes cooked in an herbed broth.

Also Castelvetro has a couple recipes and mentions both various cooking methods and that they were eaten raw as well.

Jen Small 
Here's the anonymous Andalusian recipes: Preparing a Dish With Cardoon [artichoke]
Take meat and cut it up. Wash and put in the pot and pour over enough water to cover. Put in the pot one spoon of oil, two of murri [use soy sauce] and one of clarified butter, and soaked garbanzos, chopped onion and coriander seed. [Put on the fire.]

Peel the cardoons, boil [with the rest] and [then] cut up. Throw pepper in the pot with them.

When they are cooked, take two eggs and bread crumbs [beat together and] cover the contents of the pot well [with the egg mixture] and leave over the coals until the grease comes out [until the eggs set and the grease rises], God willing.

Preparing a Dish of Cardoons with Meat [artichokes]
Take meat and cut it up. Put [it] in a pot with water, salt, two spoons of murri [use soy sauce], one of vinegar and another of oil, pepper, caraway and coriander seed. Put on the fire.

When it is cooked, wash the cardoons, boil, cut up small and throw [them] over the meat. Boil a little, and cover the contents of the pot with two [raw] eggs and bread crumbs [mixed together and cooked until set], and sprinkle pepper on it in the platter, God willing.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
The cardoon is an artichoke precursor.

Jodie Birdman 
Been reading up on botany, and it looks like wild cardoons are still gathered and eaten in southern Europe. The domestic cultivar is grown either with earth heaped over it or with opaque bags wrapped around the plant so that the stalks stay white and tender - like asparagus. I will definitely be keeping an eye out for farmer's markets next time I head south.

Frustratingly, I am pretty sure I have a ton of photos of "these gorgeous, huge thistles that look like they're probably what we bred into artichokes!" from previous hiking trips. I wish I'd known!

Amanda Lord 
Yes! Joel Lord made them for our Elizabethan feast, since they would have been a luxury food. I’m trying to remember which cookbook we worked out of

Amanda Lord 
It was The Good Housewife’s Jewel. One of us will try to drop the link later.

Ted Eisenstein 
Artichokes are expensive, and don't produce much edible stuff. Bottled artichokes are good only for adding to a compost heap.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
They are more affordable around here, since we're about an hour to 1-1/2 from the "Artichoke Capital of the World"

Kate McKowen-taves 
Ted Eisenstein as Urtatim said, depends on where you live. I live Monterey county where it is the Artichoke capital of the world. During certain times of the year I can get the mini ones for 12 for a $1 at the produce stands, sometimes cheaper too.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
I have served artichokes at a feast. I confess they were halved hearts bottled in oil. We rinsed them, and used them in a specific recipe. Cardoons would have been used in the recipe, but i did not find them available commercially. I disliked the taste of the pre-made artichokes - i think what i objected to was the citric acid. It isn't really a *bad* taste, but the flavor seemed out-of-place to me. This would have been much better with tiny baby fresh artichokes. But they were too expensive and the prep time involved in snipping off the thorns at the tops of the leaves and cooking them was too great for a large feast.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
When i lived in southern France in the early 1970s, when tiny baby artichokes were in season, we'd buy them, snip off the thorns, cut them in half, and saute them in olive oil. This is before the "furry' part develops over the choke, and they were tender and delicious.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
There was supposed to be a chapter of artichoke recipes in Section on Vegetables in the 13th c. Andalusian cookbook, the Fadalat al-Khiwan, which i am translating. However it is missing, along with the chapters on truffles, asparagus, mushrooms, leafy greens, and al-jannânîya. Chapters in this book are sometimes only one or two recipes. But i am sad that these 6 chapters are missing, because i love vegetables.
There is one recipe for sheep meat cooked with them in Section 2 Chapter 2 on sheep meat.

Chances are good that in the 13th c. when this book was written by ibn Razin al-Tujibi, they were using cardoons or a sort of wild artichoke, and not the kind we are familiar with today.

Eden Rain 
I'm sad. I'd really love to see another version of Jannaniya

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
There exists *one* complete or mostly complete manuscript, one partial manuscript (a tad less than half), and one set of a limited number of pages.

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya OK, OK, since my arm has been twisted, here's the recipe for sheep meat with artichoke or cardoons
18. Another Dish cooked with wild artichokes / alcachofa silvestre called Afzan (n.130)
___Take some meat of fatty mutton in the quantity which is needed. Put it in a new pot, add therein that which was added to the preceding dish, carry the pot on the fire and proceed in the same way as previously. Then take some wild cardoons, relieve them of their spines and others, boil them in water, When they are cooked, remove them, rinse them with hot water and cut them in little pieces, then put them into the pot with the meat. add a little saffron and vinegar as previously and leave the pot to bind and serve it into a platter. And consume in peace, if God the Most High wills it.

___In the same manner in summer it can be prepared with cardoons.
___Those who wish to make all that with eggplants must cut them in roundels, It is necessary to add to the pot some meatballs and to fry the wild cardoons after having boiled them.

___One can make all that also with of the meat of veal/ calf.

n.130 the Berber name for wild artichoke/cardoon

This is my translation, so if you use it, please reference me. I am working on translating the whole book, and i've made a great deal of headway. But trying to finish testing recipes for my already complete translation of Shirvani's circa 1430 collection of Ottoman recipes (and prepping for a bunch of new classes) has been taking precedence.
[ETA: hmmm, looks like i need to include the preceding recipe for those additional ingredients. ibn Razin does this a lot. In a section on chicken he'll just say, cook like the dish of the same name for lamb.]

Urtatim Al-Qurtubiyya 
Here's the preceding recipe with the other ingredients
17. Another Dish called al-Narjîsîya «Narcissus Dish»
[note: Narcissus is not an ingredient]
Take some meat tender and fat, cut it up, wash it, and put it into a pot with salt, oil, pepper, coriander seeds. Cook it halfway, then cut some good scraped carrots in little sticks a half finger in length, thrown them on the meat with a little water. When this is cooked, pour thereon enough eggs beaten with saffron, pour to bind it. Leave it to cool and cut it up in pieces like narcissus. The cooking can be terminated in the oven, if God the Most High wills it.

So the ingredients called for in recipe 18 are: salt, oil, pepper, coriander seeds.

Tracey Sawyer 
a lot of cooks did the same thing... THe Prince of Transylvania's Court Cookbook has something like 800 recipes and at first reading I would guess a half of them are "do as I told you before". In other words he has one recipe with a great sauce and you can make it with fish or lamb or mutton or beef or venison or goose or whatever and he has written a new title in the appropriate section with "do as I told you before"... aaargh! Thankfully the lovely SCAdian who had it translated has gone through and put footnotes so you know which recipe is the "before" being referred to.

Tracey Sawyer Awww, shucks! Thank you! I’m not sure it was half, except maybe in the fish sections, but I’m glad you found it useful. 
It’s not showing a hyperlink because that’s it’s location on your desktop. 
Here you go: http://www.fibergeek.com/leat.../the-transylvanian-cookbook/

Glenn Gorsuch 
Also, the Science of Cooking has one artichoke recipe:
(642) ARTICHOKE
This is an Italian food, if you don't know how to make this, read carefully. Boil some water, add some tree oil, and once done, put it on a plate and add some oil, then serve it. 
—it’s buried in amongst the various mushroom recipes...presumably the author classed it as a mushroom due to its shape. Tree oil is olive oil.

Tristin Tayla Sablerose 
We've served artichokes multiple multiple times including to a feast of 300. We use frozen ones and we have both Italian and I think Spanish recipes that we use. Yes we serve very small portions but we're still able to serve them.

Ann Frances Rhett-Steel Pinion 
In memory of a feast tale of yester-year, please please for the love of food, have somebody explain to all those eating this wonderful flower how to properly consume it. If you leave them to their own devices, those who do not know and love this cousin of the common thistle will be swindled out of these tasty morsels by those that do partake.

Tiffany Ballard 
I rather like one of Castelvetro's suggestions: We usually cook the larger ones on a grid over charcoal, having cut away the top halves of the leaves, and serve with oil or melted butter, and salt and pepper. They taste even better with some bitter orange juice squeezed over them after roasting; artichokes appeal enormously to everyone who eats them like this.

Nanda Rothstein 
I'm sorry this isnt helpful but I have to share a fun fact about them. They can occasionally spontaneously combust!
https://www.seriouseats.com/.../how-to-make-carciofi-alla...
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Carciofi alla Romana: The Other Delicious Roman Artichoke Dish
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Carciofi alla Romana: The Other Delicious Roman Artichoke Dish

Dianna Haught 
My understanding of artichokes is that they weren't commonly grown in England until the mid 1500's and then were a rich mans' food. So that puts them oop for me. I'd think they'd be too expensive for many feasts.

Brooke White 
artichokes are pricey and ppl are oddly picky eaters at feast, sigh

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