Title: olives-msg
Subject: Period olives. Processing fresh olives. Recipes.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, olive, lye, brine, salt, oil, preserve, recipe

olives-msg – 4/23/20

Period olives. Processing fresh olives. Recipes.

NOTE: See also the files: cooking-oils-msg, fd-Italy-msg, pasta-msg, pickled-foods-msg, vinegar-msg, vegetables-msg, fd-Greece-msg, fd-Mid-East-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 00:50:05 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: SC - Olives

I recently purchased some fresh raw olives from Giant . Would anyone care to
share any recipes or procedures for using/preserving these gems either from
period sources or modern sources? Every cookbook I have inexplicably assumes
that  a person is buying already preserved olives. :-( Last year when they
were available I scraped off the coating and started some olive trees from
the seeds. This year I really would like to eat them. :-)

Ras

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:24:03 -0500
From: "Alderton, Philippa" <phlip at morganco.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives

As I understand it, fresh olives are nasty- they are made edible by pickling
in brine or preserving in oil.

Phlip
Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 01:54:16 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> Every cookbook I have inexplicably assumes
> that  a person is buying already preserved olives. :-(

That may be because until recently, unless you lived in an area where
olives were grown, it was a pretty safe assumption that the olives you'd
be buying were preserved. I know I was in my twenties the first time I
saw a fresh olive in a market.

From Harold McGee's "On Food and Cooking":
"Anyone who has bitten into a raw olive knows that olives must somehow
be processed before they are edible. Olives are usually pickled, and
they contain a bitter glucoside called oleuropein <snip> which is
usually removed first. This has been done since Roman times by soaking
the fruit in a lye solution and then washing it thoroughly. <snip>
Today's Greek olives are as strong-tasting as they are because they have
not been treated with lye to remove the oleuropein. They are either
simply cured by packing in dry salt, or are pickled in brine, where they
undergo a lactic fermentation. Green Spanish olives are picked before
they are ripe, treated with lye, and then brined." <extraneous material
about how canned California olives are processed, snipped>

>From Cato's "De Agricultura", Andrew Dalby, trans.:

"How green olives are conserved. Before they turn black, they are to be
broken and put into water. The water is to be changed frequently. When
they have soaked sufficiently they are drained, put into vinegar, and
oil is added. 1/2 lb salt to 1 peck olives. Fennel and lentisk are put
up separately in vinegar. When you decide to mix them in, use quickly.
Pack in preserving jars. When you wish to use, take up with dry hands."

Adamantius

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 13:19:24 -0000
From: nanna at idunn.is (Nanna Rognvaldardottir)
Subject: Re: SC - Olives

Ras wrote:
>I recently purchased some fresh raw olives from Giant . Would anyone care to
>share any recipes or procedures for using/preserving these gems either from
>period sources or modern sources?

If you lived on a Greek island, you could just put them in a basket and dip
them in the ocean once a day for about ten days - I understand that is how
they are still cured around there. I do have a recipe in a book at home and
will look it up as soon as I get there.

Nanna

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 11:53:08 -0500
From: Angie Malone <alm4 at cornell.edu>
Subject: SC - Re: SC-Olives, and I've got a new book

Funny you should bring this up.  I just got a new book (new to me, it is a
used book) it is titled:
Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti trans. by Judith Spencer.  It is said
to be a facsimile of I think a 13 or 14th century manuscript.  It takes
about herbs, foods and other things and what they thought they did to you.
From the first perusal I did last night I remember that eggs yolks were
very good for you, and eggs whites especially if you ate them would make
you belch.  They said the best way to cook eggs was to poach them but said
you could also boil them, but recommended what sounded like soft boiled
eggs that hard boiled would also bother you somehow.

But back to the olives, I remember reading about black olives and I was
surprised (don't ask me why) that they were a period thing.  I don't
remember how they ate them though, but I was considering doing them on a
sideboard, only as a first thought.

I don't remember what it said about green olives, but I will look tonight
and get back to you.

I was going to write to the list today and ask if anyone else had looked
over the book and what they thought about it.  I am, for now, treating it
as a source of information that needs verifying until I can determine it's
accuracy.

        Angeline

Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 21:13:09 -0000
From: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Nanna_R=F6gnvaldard=F3ttir?=" <nannar at isholf.is>
Subject: Re: SC - Olives

From "Lost Arts" by Lynn Alley:
"To begin the brine processing, place your clean olives in cold water and
change the water each day for 10 days. Weigh the olives down with a plate so
they all stay submerged. No need to cover at this point. This will start
leaching the bitter glucosides out of the olives. Notice the changes in both
the color and the aroma of the olives. At the end of the 10-day period, you
can make a more permanent brine solution in which to continue the process.
Add 1 cup of noniodized salt to each gallon of water. Use enough of this
brine to cover the olives. Change this solution weekly for four weeks. At
the end of four weeks, transfer the olives to a weaker brine solution until
you are ready to use them. The solution should contain 1/2 cup of noniodized
salt to each gallon of water. Just how long it will take for your olives to
become edible, I cannot say. Mine seem to take about two or three months to
really develop a rich, olivey flavor."

Or, if you prefer lye:
"First you have to find lye that contains no aluminium. You must then
carefully mix the lye with water and soak the olives in the solution for
anywhere from 10 to 30 hours. You can see the flesh of the olive change
color as the lye solution penetrates to the pit of the olive. When the
solution has thoroughly penetrated the olive, you must then dispose of it in
some suitable manner and the olive must again be soaked in water, this time
to leach the lye out of them."

Nanna

Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2000 22:52:36 -0500
From: "Siegfried Heydrich" <baronsig at peganet.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Fighters

    As a fighter, part time carpenter (in florida), and someone who takes
his health seriously, I tried lots of different hot weather foods. What I've
found that's just flat out organic rocket fuel are olives - ripe are good,
brine cured are better, and oil cured are nothing short of awesome!
Manzanilla olives are ok, but don't give you a shot of energy like the
blacks. They're good thirst quenchers, though.

    The oils metabolize very quickly, burn very hot, and don't spike your
insulin levels, so there's no crash. They contain high levels of the salts
your body craves, and it's really easy to carry a small baggie full of them
in your belt pouch. I've been able to fight all day on olives and gatorade
and not get exhausted, while the guys doing the sodas and sandwiches were
flaking out like new recruits at Paris Island.

    If you want to vary it a bit, a nice antipasto (olives, peppers, salami,
mozzarella, giardinera) is about the best all around hot weather nosh I've
ever come across. And the second best is Gazpacho. Try it sometime when
you're hot & tired.

    Sieggy

Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 09:23:25 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Feeding Fighters

There's also the possibility of using a tapenade made of olives.  I found
something that looks, smells and tastes like a tapenade in A Taste of Ancient
Rome...a recipe by Cato, that one of my protege's redacted.  It's called
"Epityrum", and the recipe is:

Make Green, black or varicolored epityrum in this way. Pit the green, black or
varicolored olives.  Season them thus:  Chop them, and add oil, vinegar,
coriander, cumin, fennel, rue and mint.  Put them in a small jar, with oil on
top and they are ready to use.

It's really good, especially when eaten with cheese.  We made a flat bread
similar to foccacia (from the same source), and served a kind of soft cheese
spread (same source) and this olive paste.  People loved it!

Kiri

Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 08:44:38 -0500
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - olives

I used a combination of green and black brined olives...from a can/jar.  It's what was most readily available. Do try it...everyone here who did really thought it was great!  Following the earlier suggestion, I plan on making some to take to Pennsic for our fighters!

Kiri

Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:57:07 EST
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: SC - Re: Fresh olives

<< Fresh (meaning uncured or unpickled) olives are usually very bitter, and 
 almost inedible.  I think we can assume, unless otherwise stated, that any 
 reference to olives in these posts refers to cured olives.  Right guys and 
 gals?  Please say I'm right... >>

While at our local market, I saw fresh olives. My mind went directly to the 
yummy taste I associate with them and so I bought a small bagful. I went 
home,  opened a good book, grabbed a few olive out of the bag and popped them 
into my mouth. I chewed half a chew and promptly spit them into my hand. It 
was one of the most significantly terrible tasting food items I have ever 
eaten (probably because my mind was not expecting what came of the 
experience). I was expecting a velvety, salty or even oily taste. What I got 
was turpentine. 

Hauviette

Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 06:45:30 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives

CBlackwill at aol.com wrote:
> stefan at texas.net writes: 
> > Did you use olives that had already
> >  been pickled or were they fresh? Since these do seem to be pickled
> >  in this recipe in oil and vinegar it may not matter but if fresh
> >  they probably aren't "ready to use"
> 
> Fresh (meaning uncured or unpickled) olives are usually very bitter, and
> almost inedible.  I think we can assume, unless otherwise stated, that any
> reference to olives in these posts refers to cured olives.  Right guys and
> gals?  Please say I'm right...

Cato, who devotes a fair amount of his text to olives, seems to suggest
that there are olives that are cured somehow, and those that are pressed
for oil without curing. For practical purposes, yeah, I'd agree, olives
that are intended for eating are processed somehow to remove that
chemical whose name I'll remember after I've had my dish of tay, that
makes them taste nasty. The chemical and the olives, not the tay.
 
Adamantius

Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:56:19 EST
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives

CBlackwill at aol.com writes:
<< Please say I'm right... >>

Right. Uncured olives are referred to by that term or 'raw' and rarely 
'fresh.' 

Ras

Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 10:52:43 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - olives

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Would "green, black or varicolored olives" necessarily indicate fresh or
> cured olives?
>
> If fresh then they still may end up being cured in this recipe, provided
> "and they are ready to use" means they may be used without other
> preperation rather than they can be eaten immediately.
>
> If this recipe does end up "curing" the olives then why would you
> start with cured olives, at least in period? Today you might simple
> because the cured ones might be more available or even cheaper.
>
> Maybe if we can get the original recipe in Latin, maybe a cook here
> can check the translation, particularly that last "ready to use" part.

The original Latin is as follows:

Epitrium album, nigrum, varium sic facto.  Ex oleis albis, nigris variisque nucleos eicito.  Sic condito.  Concidito ipsas, addito oleum, acetum, coriandrum, cuminum, feniculum, rutum, mentam.  In orculum condito, oleum supra siet.  Ita utito.

It is from Cato, #119.

Kiri

Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 22:17:17 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Ras replied to me:
> > stefan at texas.net writes:
> > << Would "green, black or varicolored olives" necessarily indicate fresh or
> >  cured olives? >>
> >
> > I would assume cured olives are meant by this recipe which appears to
> > indicate a sort of relish.
> 
> Ok, why would you assume cured olives?

Hmmm. Okay, how about this? The olives are placed in vinegar and oil,
with oil coating the top to keep air out and help preserve the whole
thing. However, the recipe says this relish is ready to use immediately.
Had raw, uncured olives been used, it wouldn't be, even if vinegar, or
oil, or both could be used to draw the unpleasant-tasting chemicals from
the olives. 

> Are all raw olives the same general color? Does this "green, black or
> varicolored olives" thus indicate processed olives?

No, olives are like most other fruits, they change color and ripen on
the plant. Green olives are unripe, and can be picked and cured, and so
can ripe ones of various colors. Usually some dark shade, purple or
black, but sometimes brown.

Dalby's translation of Cato's recipe for epityrum speaks of green,
black, or mixed olives, while the Latin suggests to me "white, black, or
mixed". Given that I really think this recipe calls for cured olives, it
would mean pretty much any olives as long as they're cured. However,
this can be confusing since at least one of Cato's recipes for curing
green olives is nearly identical to the epityrum recipe. Actually, from
what I've seen, most of the curing processes he discusses involve
vinegar, oil, and herbs, except for windfall olives which were
apparently salted. 

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 04:30:22 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives

stefan at texas.net writes:
<< Ok, why would you assume cured olives?
 
 Are all raw olives the same general color? Does this "green, black or 
 varicolored olives" thus indicate processed olives? >>

Olives very in color according to their ripeness OR their method of 
preparation. I would assume that cured olives are meant because when using 
raw olives for this recipe it tastes horrible and is unpalatably bitter.

Ras

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 02:16:16 EDT
From: CBlackwill at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - olives

stefan at texas.net writes:
> Olives were pressed for their oil. Were these ripe olives or still
>  green? What was done with the crushed pulp? Hmm, for that matter,
>  what was done with the crushed pulp from squeezing grapes for wine? 

Green (raw) olives are pressed for oil, and the pulp is fed to farm animals.

Grape skins, called lees, are used in the production of the wine itself 
("sitting on the lees" gives red wines their color), and then fed to farm 
animals.

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 06:59:38 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> > Olives very in color according to their ripeness OR their method of
> > preparation. I would assume that cured olives are meant because when using
> > raw olives for this recipe it tastes horrible and is unpalatably bitter.
> 
> Ok. When you made this recipe using raw olives did it taste so bad you
> threw it out at that point? Or did you wait and see if in the meantime
> they "cured" in the oil/vinegar mixture? How long did you wait?

This is a good point. At some point the olives probably would cure to
some extent in this marinade. However, in spite of the fact that this
ought to keep a fairly long time, Cato says the relish is ready
immediately. This was why I assumed the olives were cured.
 
> Today we stuff olives with pimentos, right? Are there any referances
> to olives being stuffed in period with this or other items?

I haven't heard of this, but it would make sense, since the seed cavity
of things like dates were stuffed. I have a sneaking suspicion, but no
hard proof, that tuna-stuffed olives might have existed in period.
 
> Olives were pressed for their oil. Were these ripe olives or still
> green? What was done with the crushed pulp?

Both ripe and green olives can be pressed for oil, but I think the oil
from green olives lasts longer than that from ripe olives before
becoming rancid. The crushed pulp can be heated and processed for
pressing out more oil (said oil being cheap and surprisingly good, IMO,
and known as pomace olive oil). Whether or not this process is period I
couldn't say. The pomace (which really just means pressed pulp of
whatever, presumably originally a reference to apples) can also be
pressed into bricks and dried; it makes a good fuel. 

> Hmm, for that matter,
> what was done with the crushed pulp from squeezing grapes for wine?

Animal feed. Fermented and distilled it is the basis for marc and grappa
brandies. Maybe plastics nowadays... ;  ) .

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 11:48:53 -0700
From: Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at home.com>
Subject: Re: SC - at the market

At 04:52 PM 4/28/00 +0000,Christina van Tets said something like:
>Does anyone know how to cure olives?  A period recipe would be excellent, 
>but if not a mundane one would do.  I can't resist them any longer, and I 
>know they taste disgusting when they're not cured properly.

Once upon a time the Calafian cook's guild did a feast where we prepared 
three 5-gallon buckets of olives donated from someone's tree. I'm sure 
there was a period source we drew from, but that was in my days of 
newbiedom, so ... it all went straight over my head. It was very easy, and 
I don't remember the directions exactly enough to give them to you and feel 
safe. HOWEVER, I found a very nice web page that describes how to do all 
three types of olives. (the green, the half green half red, and the full 
black).

http://www.finegardening.com/fc/features/ingredients/olives/1.htm

After our olives were cured, we seasoned them by storing a little brine, 
with olive oil floated on top, some large chunks of lemon zest and a few 
laurel leaves in the jar. The leftovers lasted for _YEARS_ in the 
refrigerators of a couple of the guild members.

Maggie MacD.

From: "Ron & Sharon" <rogowski at mc.net>
To: <stefan at florilegium.org>
Subject: Olives
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 15:19:19 -0600

I searched on Alta Vista for (brining olives) and the first site was 
http://homecooking.about.com/food/homecooking/library/weekly/blbrining.htm - wonderful info on processing fresh olives, had my recipes in about 2 minutes. 

Now for the "hard" part--following the directions for processing ripe olives in salt. Probably easier to buy them, but I like knowing about these arcane processes.

S

Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2000 12:33:41 US/Eastern
From: harper at idt.net
Subject: Re: SC - olives in period spanish recipes?

> Inquiring minds want to know.  do any of you with more spanish info than I
> have recall any period spanish recipes containing olives?

> Eden Rain
> raghead at liripipe.com

They are listed as an item in a menu that I once posted, which is located at:
http://www.jimena.com/cocina/apartados/nobleza.htm

On February 9, 1568, Archbishop Juan de Ribera had, as the last course of his 
supper: olives, cheese, and walnuts.

I have not seen olives as an ingredient in any period Spanish recipes (except 
for the use of oil, of course).

But I'll check around.

Brighid

Subject: Re: SC - olives in period spanish recipes?

I don't have the recipe in front of me, but there's an olive recipe that is
suspiciously like our modern tapenade in, I think, some of Cato's writings from
Roman times.  I got the recipe out of Ilaria Giacosa's A Taste of Ancient Rome.

Kiri

Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2000 18:42:45 +1000
From: "Alistair Ramsden" <alistair_ramsden at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - olives in period spanish recipes?

Spanish food without olives? That is like Italian food without olive oil: 
read on, what was written in 1470 about the olive.

An excerpt from Mary Ella Milham's translation of Platina's "De Honesta 
Voluptate et Valetudine" reads, Bk 2 Ch 13 "On Oil... one must speak first 
about certain simple ingredients about the olive and olive oil. There are 
several kinds of olives: the preserving kind, the pausia(?) olive, the long 
olive, the oblong olive, which is the best preserved of all olives, as Varro says, the Salentine or the Spanish. The preserving kind are the largest and the best to eat, as are the Bolognese and the Picene... etc"

Olives! Oh! On their stone, a most excellent little morsel!

Pliny mentions them; as does a C14th manuscript of the Arabian Knights, in a 
tale of feasting and (sic) erotic bathing.

Some simple recipes - Olives simmered in pounded garlic and honey, Olive 
bread - Olives with pasta. In baking or cooking, they can be cut off the 
stone, but you can buy pitted olives they are easier again (if, presumably, 
awfully inauthenic , what?)

Alistair aka Stefano

Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 09:20:35 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - de-pitting olives?

Anne-Marie Rousseau wrote:
> Stefan asks:
> >I then proceeded to try to cut the olives off the seeds. Is there some
> >trick to this??? I gave up after only a dozen or two olives and ended up
> >more with little chunks of olive rather than nice halves or the just empty
> >olives that I saw in the store. Surely you don't leave the seeds in for
> >most dishes?
> 
> funny you should ask :)
> Martha Stewards show today included a segment on olives! they suggested
> pitting them either by individually slitting them on one side and
> squooshing out the pit, or the chef did a neat trick where he put the olive
> on the cutting board and wacked it with the flat of his chef knife. Left a
> big flat olive you could easily take the pit out. They kinda sprung back
> into a vague olive shape after. kinda...
> 
> I was wondering why they didnt just use one of those cherry pitter gizmos
> (I guess that depends on the size of the olive, of course....)
> 
> good luck! olives are one of Gods perfect foods....(real olives, not the
> black things in cans from California)

Ahh G-d, to think I should live to see the day when I find myself in
agreement with Martha Stewart, or, rather, one of her underpaid,
anonymous researchers...

It used to be part of my prep mise en place at Bouley, every morning for
several months, to produce a quart of 1/8" brunoise (essentially, tiny
dice) of French green olives. If you're just chopping them roughly, I
agree, squooshing them with the flat of your knife works well, as does
simply squeezing them between finger and thumb (Fighter's Winter Kitchen
Exercise #24, to be specific) until you can feel the pit on both sides,
then just kind of push it through. Whether this works, though, or how
well, will depend on the type of olive you have. Those neatly pitted
[mechanically] olives are unripe (black or green, they're unripe),
whereas many of the black or green real olives you buy packed in wine,
oil, or brine are ripe, and are still tenaceously clinging to their
pits, while still soft enough to not survive the pitting process well.

My best advice is to look for oil-cured black olives (they look like
little prunes; a major exporter is Morocco, but France produces them
too) and then you can easily do the squoosh. This should work with any
moderately soft olive. For firm ones, just get the biggest ones you can
find. (Ripe or unripe, oil-packed olives seem to be the firmest --
oil-cured isn't the same thing as oil-packed.) Of course the bigger the
olive, the bigger the pit, too, but it still makes it easier to do any
kind of fine detail work such as the aforementioned 1/8" dice. You
should be able to take two large oval slices, like fillets, off the
sides of the olive. Cut with a slightly curved motion and go along the
edges of the pit, kinda like taking a very small apple off the core.
You'll then get two smaller pieces off the other two sides.

Use the sharpest knife possible -- a small paring knife is good for
this. 

I don't have much to add, except that you can sometimes buy pitted black
oil-cured olives, which is a great timesaver for making tapenade and
such, but I highly recommend that you feel through them with your
fingertips to see of there are any errant pits in there. There's nothing
quite so satisfying as watching the top of someone else's blender or
food processor shooting off into space and knowing you also don't have
to clean it up...  

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 2 Jan 2001 15:58:18 -0700
From: "KarenO" <kareno at lewistown.net>
Subject: Re: SC - de-pitting olives?

>Thats part of what I was wondering. I've never seen nor heard of a cherry
pitter gizmo. Are these like little spoons?

    My cherry pitter is hand held, plastic, scissor action  -- a  small bowl
with a hole in the center,  and a plunger thingy on the opposite side.  the
cherry goes in the bowl,  the plunger thingy comes down  in and into the
cherry pushing the pit out the hole in the center of the bowl.  Quite
tedious one cherry at a time, and the hand hurts mucho after pitting
cherries.  Betcha it would work on olives decently.

Caointiarn

Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2001 21:46:27 
From: "kylie walker" <kyliewalker at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - de-pitting olives?

I'm waaaay behind on the list, but anyway ... another way to do olives, at least something like a Kalamata where the flesh isn't too strongly attached, is to do the "whacking" with your hands, rather than a knife. 

I used to have to do a bucketful most days when I was working in a cafe kitchen in a past life. Put on a pair of those disposable gloves, put a pile of olives on a big board and just smush down, using your body weight rather than just your hands, kind of like a CPR motion. Then the pits will be really easy to pick out. 

Of course, this is better if you are doing olives for bread or something where appearance is not paramount. They aren't left in exactly pristine condition - although they don't go to mush, either, just ragged halves.

Kylie

Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - What would you do?  or 2 months to freak out

> Actually you might want to check out your local Sam's/BJ/Costco....often they
> have the large institutional size jars of olives, so they might not be quite 
> as expensive as you think!

> > Pickles! Could I have forgotten pickles?! Cheap and easy is getting the
> > big jars of whole dills, which when sliced into spears appear to have MORE
> > volume than pickles bought as jarred spears. Bread & Butter or sweet
> > pickles go quickly. Olives are snapped up immediately around here, but
> > they are very expensive. Pickled mushrooms always have an audience, but
> > don't mix them in with anything else. Other kinds of pickles also go well.

We did, this year, but could find no big jars of olives or packs that were worth it. Most of the olive freaks want whole, unstuffed olives (or at least olives stuffed with something interesting, not the same old pimento).

At Christmas time, SAM'S had variety jars that were very nice, and we wish we had gotten more.
- -- 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at mail.browser.net

Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 09:27:11 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Italian fish in oil spreads

> Stefan li Rous wrote:
> > Does anyone have some period recipes for these Italian, fish in oil,
> > spreads? Are these just mushed up fish in oil spread on bread? This
> > sounds like it could be a wonderful alternative to the honey-butter
> > and bread stuff.
>
> Note that Giano said "included" fish in oil, not "were made from", etc.
> I suspect what we're talking about is something like tapenade, which
> does usually include both tuna either in brine or in oil, and anchovies
> either salted and/or in oil, in addition to garlic (lots), pitted black
> olives (essential), capers, fresh herbs, and perhaps a squeeze of orange 
> juice.
>
> Now all we have to do is document such a product as a spread ;  ) .
>
> Adamantius

Actually, there is an olive spread (sans the fish) in "A Taste of Ancient Rome",
cited as Cato 119.  It was called "Epityrum" :

"Make green, black, or varicolored epityrum in this way. Pit the green, black, or varicolored olives. Season them thus: Chop them, and add oil, vinegar, coriander, cumin, fennel, rue, and mint. Put them in a small jar, with oil on top and they are ready to use."

Other information in "A Taste of Rome" about this included:
"Greeks and Romans ate this with cheese, whence the derivation of its name (epityrum = over cheese). Varro (De lingua latina 7, 86) described it as a Greek recipe, and Columella (12,49,9) suggested that the olives be seasoned with salt, lentiscus, rue and fennel.

Kiri

From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2001 21:27:23 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Pt. 1 - Medieval Persian Iron Chef

Here are three out of nine, for the "bawarid", the cold dishes:
Zaitun Mubakhkhar - Smoked Olives
Sals Abyad - White Sauce
Badhinjan Buran - Princess Buran's Eggplant

Anahita

---------------------

Zaitun Mubakhkhar - Perfumed Olives
The original calls for smoking the olives. As I don't have the
necessary equipment, I added a few drops of smoke flavor to the
drained olives.

Original:
Take olives when fully ripe. If you want take them black, and if you
want take them green, except that the green are better for smoking.
Bruise them and put some salt on them, as much as needed, and turn
them over every day until the bitterness goes away. When they throw
off liquid, pour it off. When the bitterness is gone from them,
spread them out on a woven tray until quite dry.

Then pound peeled garlic and cleaned thyme, as much as necessary.
Take the quantity of a dirham of them, and a piece of walnut with its
meat in it, and a dirham of wax, and a piece of cotton immersed in
sesame oil, and a piece fo date seed. Put these ingredients on a low
fire on a stove [kanun] and seal its door, and put the tray the
olives are in on top of it, and cover it with a tray so that it is
filled with the scent of this smoke, which does not escape. Then
leave it that way for a whole day.

Then you return them to a container large enough for them and mix the
pounded garlic and thyme with them, and a little crushed walnut meat,
and a handful of toasted sesame seeds. Take as much fresh sesame oil
as needed and fry it with cumin seeds, and throw them on it and mix
them with it.

Then take a greased pottery jug [barniyya] and smoke it in that
smoke. Put the olives in it and cover the top, and it is put up for
[several] days. It is not used until the sharpness of the garlic in
it is broken.

(from "The Books of the Description of Familiar Foods", trans.
Charles Perry, p. 403, "Medieval Arab Cookery")

My Work-Up:
4-1/2 pounds cracked green olives in brine, drained
a few drops smoke flavoring
1-1/2 heads garlic, peeled
a couple tablespoons dried thyme or zataar herb
1 cup shelled walnuts
1 cup white sesame seeds
1-1/2 Tablespoons light sesame oil
2 to 3 Tablespoons whole cumin seeds

1. Drain olives well.
2. Add a few drops of smoke flavoring to the drained olives. Be sure
to mix very very well.
3. Crush garlic cloves in a food processor or by hand with in a
mortar with a pestle (the latter is what I did).
4. Add thyme to garlic and crush further.
5. Add garlic and thyme to olives. Blend well.
6. Crush walnuts medium-fine in a mortar with a pestle. Add to olives
and mix well.
7. Toast sesame seeds in a frying pan with NO oil, over medium to
medium-low heat, stirring very very frequently, until toasted fairly
evenly to a rich gold. Add to olives and mix well.
8. Put a few tablespoons of sesame oil in frying pan, add several
tablespoons of whole cumin seeds, and cook on medium to medium-low
heat until cumin darkens slightly and aroma comes out. Be careful not
to burn. Stir into olives.
9. Taste. Add more smoke if necessary - use a sparing hand, as too
much is awful.
10. Let olives season for several days well covered in a cool place,
stirring once a day to distribute flavorings. I made them Tuesday
night and served them Saturday night.

NOTE: It is difficult to find plain zataar herb. Every shop I visited
that had zataar had the kind that was a blend of zataar herb, salt,
sesame seeds, and sumak. This blend is not suitable for this recipe.
A friend of mine of Lebanese descent suggested I try the herb called
"Greek oregano". This is NOT the standard oregano sold in
supermarkets, which is "Mexican oregano" and which flavor I do not
like. I did see "Greek oregano" in some of the Near Eastern markets
and will try it when I make these olives again, which I most
definitely will, as they were delicious.

---------------------

Sals Abyad - White Sauce (Spiced Walnut-Sesame Butter)

<snip - see sauces-msg>

Badhinjan Buran - Princess Buran's Eggplant
Eggplant pureed with yogurt and spices

<snip - see eggplant-msg>

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:26:21 -0500
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Gorgeous Muiredach <muiredach at bmee.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

>What about the oil? Is olive oil pressed from
>fresh olives? Or from those that have been processed? If fresh,
>then how come you can eat the oil with no problem, but the olives
>need to be processed?

The oil comes from the pits of the olive...  Not the whole fruit.

Gorgeous Muiredach
Rokkehealden Shire
Middle Kingdom
aka
Nicolas Steenhout

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 23:43:40 -0500
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Gorgeous Muiredach <muiredach at bmee.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

>Umm, all of the information I've seen shows the entire fruit sans pit being
>squeezed.  May I ask where you got your info.

That's the way they did it when I lived in Greece, in Elaphonissos, which
is a small Island in Peloponesos...

Gorgeous Muiredach
Rokkehealden Shire
Middle Kingdom
aka
Nicolas Steenhout

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:23:19 -0700
From: Susan Fox-Davis <selene at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

I find only one reference online to using pits in the process of making olive
oil, and that's at one very early style manucactury that crushes the whole
olive pit and all, where they say the pit has a preservative effect.
<http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/egg/egg0397/stonecrush.html>

Selene, Caid

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 05:28:13 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

Also sprach Susan Fox-Davis:
>I find only one reference online to using pits in the process of making olive
>oil, and that's at one very early style manucactury that crushes the whole
>olive pit and all, where they say the pit has a preservative effect.
><http://www.globalgourmet.com/food/egg/egg0397/stonecrush.html>
>
>Selene, Caid

Pomace olive oil is made largely from pits, which are ground and
heated before pressing. I suspect the idea of fine quality olive oil
_not_ being made, at least in part, from pits, is the result of a
misunderstanding of the process used to get the really good stuff.
Extra virgin olive oil isn't even really pressed at all, I gather,
except by gravity, so there's probably little or no pit compounds
present in the oil. I'm not aware of any pitting process used in the
making of olive oil, though.

Pomace olive oil actually can be very nice, AAMOF, and is a terrific bargain.

Adamantius, who now has to go look at Cato on the subject

From: "Avraham haRofeh" <goldberg at bestweb.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:21:38 -0400

> >What about the oil? Is olive oil pressed from
> >fresh olives? Or from those that have been processed? If fresh,
> >then how come you can eat the oil with no problem, but the olives
> >need to be processed?
>
> The oil comes from the pits of the olive...  Not the whole fruit.

Everything I know about the process indicates that the fresh fruit is is the
source of olive oil. The traditional method involves crushing the olives
with the pits, then grinding the olives into a paste. This paste is then
scraped into a extractor of some kind - in period, probably a finely woven,
flat wicker basket. These baskets are then piled one atop the other and
weighted. The oil squeezes out and runs down the tower of baskets into a
collection trough at the bottom. A modern machine mashes the fruit and pits,
then extrudes the paste onto a series of metal plates, which are also
stacked together and weighted (or compressed). Pomace is what's left behind
after the good oil is extracted; a bit more very low grade oil can be
extracted from the pomace, and is used for commercial/industrial purposes
like soapmaking.

The above is extracted from www.oliveoilsource.com. I can't find anything on
why raw olives are inedible (they are, but I can't find anything to say
why.)

Avraham
****************************************
Avraham haRofeh of Northpass
     (mka Randy Goldberg MD)

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:00:29 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

Also sprach Avraham haRofeh:
>I can't find anything on
>why raw olives are inedible (they are, but I can't find anything to say
>why.)

They contain one or more extremely bitter acids which make some kind
of neutralization or leaching process necessary. I also can't find
what the acid(s) are specifically, but I'm sure it's somewhere in
Harold McGee's "On Food And Cooking". Anybody have that handy? (Both
my copies are somewhat inconveniently placed at the moment...)

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 08:10:58 -0400
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] olives/olive oil question

Also sprach Stefan li Rous:
>Is olive oil pressed from
>fresh olives? Or from those that have been processed?

Fresh.

>  If fresh,
>then how come you can eat the oil with no problem, but the olives
>need to be processed?

 From the web page at
http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Olea_eur.html :

>Main constituents
>In leaves and fruits of the olive tree, a phenolic seco-iridoid called
>oleuropein is found; it is the hypotensive principle. Before pickling olives,
>the oleuropein is removed either by treatment with lye or by lactic
>fermentation; the remaining residues of oleuropein are sometimes said
>to prevent diseases resulting from high blood pressure.

Presumably oleuropein is water-soluble. Olive oil pressings are only
55% actual fat, though, so much of the oleuropein may be left behind
after racking or skimming.

Adamantius

From: Marilyn Traber <marilyn.traber.jsfm at statefarm.com>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 07:54:07 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] olive oil

>The oil comes from the pits of the olive...  Not the whole fruit.

No, the whole fruit is crushed, then layered on these grass mats to about 3
or 4 feet thick and then crushed. The resulting juice is poured into large
vessels and the oil allowed to float to the top. Quite memorable, Francois'
family was still pressing their own for-home-use on a press from the 1400s
in the early 70s, when I got to watch one fall.

Don't know why the oil doesn't carry the alkali flavor that makes fresh
olives so nasty, other than alkalis tent to be soluable in water instead of
oil...

margali
http://www.oliveoil.gr/pressing.html

Date: Fri, 05 Jul 2002 09:49:19 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] I hate olives...
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Would you believe that our local Safeway has these...and I think they're
quite good!  They also have them stuffed with almonds.

A good friend of mine (actually taught me to cook in the SCA) developed the
following pickled mushroom recipe from a 14th century Italian recipe (not
sure of the source here.....)

2 parts olive oil
1 part white wine vinegar
1/2 part white wine
oregano to taste
basil to taste
onion sliced and made into rings
Greek olives
mushrooms

Basically, you make a marinade or pickling brine from the first five
ingredients and pour over a mixture of the last 3.  I usually dump the brine
from the Greek olives (if I've purchased the bottled variety) into the
liquid as well...seems a waste to dispose of that wonderful stuff.  I know I
haven't provided any quantities, but it's one of those things where I add
things "until it's enough".  Sorry about that!

Kiri

From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <rcmann4 at earthlink.net>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 01:13:48 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: I hate olives...

On 11 Jul 2002, at 23:23, Mark S. Harris wrote:
> Brighid ni Chiarain said:
> Then again, I don't think I need a lot of olives.  These will be
> served with dessert, as per period practice (with cheese, preserves,
> nuts, and dried fruit). <<<<<
>
> I've seen very little information here or elsewhere on how olives were
> eaten in period and certainly no indication of them being eaten at the
> end of a meal. So more information please including where you saw
> this. Or perhaps a period menu that details this?

Yes, there is a period menu.  It's for a Spanish archbishop, and it's in the
Florilegium in this file:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/p-menus-msg.text

The menu ends with "olives and cheese, 50 walnuts".

Slightly post-period, there is a menu for a Christmas banquet in the
Spanish royal court from the early 17th century.  It appears in an 18th
century edition of a cookbook that was written in 1611 (_Arte de Cozina_
by Francisco Martinez Monti=F1o).  Also the 1609 _Arte de Cozina_ by
Domingo Hernandez de Maceras.  Both list olives, cheese and nuts in the
dessert course, plus assorted fruits and sweets.

Brighid ni Chiarain *** mka Robin Carroll-Mann
Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom
rcmann4 at earthlink.net

Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 14:47:15 -0800
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Better than baba ganoush, but is it period?
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also, there is a Roman recipe from Cato for a dish that sounds a lot 
like a tapenade:      
               Make green, black, or varicolored epityrum in this way. 
Pit the green, black, or varicolored olives. Season them thus: Chop 
them, and add oil, vinegar, coriander, cumin, fennel, rue, and mint. Put them in a small jar, with oil on top and they are ready to use.

I made it for a feast some years back and it was wonderful.  I did a 
redaction, which follows...please forgive the fact that it's for 104 
people!              

 13   4.25oz can Olives, green or black
3/4   cup Olive oil
3/4   cup vinegar
1/4   cup coriander
1/4   cup cumin
1/4   cup fennel
1/4   cup rue
1/4   cup mint 

Pit the olives, then mix them in a blender with the herbs, olive oil, 
and vinegar. Avoid the temptation to add any salt, since the olives we 
buy today are already sufficiently salted.

Redacted from directions in "A Taste of Ancient Rome"

Greeks and Romans ate this with cheese, whence the derivation of its name 
(epityrum =   over cheese).

Kiri

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 18:38:57 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cookbooks and historical food references
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> 6) Use of coconut fiber mats to filter olive oil.  Mats are called scourtins
> (can't tell how old this practice is).
>
> Sharon

Scourtin or escourtin are baskets that receive olive paste.  They are  then
stacked atop each other and are mechanically pressed to extract the oil.
Modern scourtins are nylon rather than coconut fiber.  Esparto grass and
other natural fibers have been used.

The technique is probably the "crushing in wicker sieves" mentioned in
Pliny.

Bear

Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2005 13:28:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
From: Christiane <christianetrue at earthlink.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Italian olive history
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Great site, I would love to visit the place:
http://www.museodellolivo.com/eng/index.htm

If you go to the in-depth information, you'll see stuff about the 
Middle Ages in Italy. Apparently olive culture plummeted and the oil 
was scarce and expensive.

Gianotta

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 08:57:03 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks]Olives was  Apicius birds stuff with olives
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

You might want to look at--
Olives : the life and lore of a noble fruit / Mort Rosenblum.
1st ed. New York : North Point Press, 1996.
316 p. : ill. ; 25 cm.

Like I said the literature is vast, especially when one also moves into
oil production and trade. For example--

This book discusses olives in ancient Greece--
Le pain et l'huile dans la Grèce antique : de l'araire au moulin /
Marie-Claire Amouretti.
Paris : Belles Lettres, 1986.
322 p., 41 p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 07:14:53 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius"
	<adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Apicius birds stuff with olives
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Also sprach Stefan li Rous:
> Johnnae replied to me with:
>> The recipe says "boil" so in this case the cook chose
>> to put some seasonings into the water. They look like ordinary
>> stock ingredients to me intended to flavor the plain water.
>
> Well, yes. That was my assumption. However, the original recipe
> doesn't mention them. Does that mean adding  them to the recipe
> makes it inauthentic? That was the reason for my comment that this
> gets into the philosophy of redacting. I suspect different folks are
> going to have different opinions on this. I note that Master
> Cariadoc later today in the pasta thread questions the use of salt
> since it isn't mentioned in the original recipe there.

The addition of what looks like modern French-technique aromatics
(celery, onion, carrot, bay leaf) is probably just that: modern.
After what was a pretty quick search, I can't find any specific
instructions in Apicius for adding anything to the water when boiling
meats, but I'd be a lot more comfortable adding salt than I would be
adding mirepoix vegetables, under the circumstances.

>> As to olives, there are at least a couple dozen books on olives
>> on the market. I am afraid I don't own enough of those to tell you which
>> or what olives would be most like those found in Classical Rome that
>> Apicius might have used, how similiar those are to modern olives,
>> and what that all means when shopping at the local mega mart in Texas.
>
> Well, this was an open question to everyone here. I'd hoped that
> someone else might have some more direct experience with olives. The
> mega marts here don't usually have a large variety of olives,
> although there are some stores such as Central Market or some Middle
> Eastern ethnic stores which have a fairly wide range of olives.
> Still, my main question was less on a particular type of processed
> olive to use and more on whether an unprocessed "fresh" olive
> would/could have been used. Those olive books you mention may or may
> not be of much use on whether olives in the Classical world were
> used unprocessed or what their recipes meant by "fresh". If the
> "fresh" olives leave a bitter taste, I could see where they might
> still be used. But if they are inedible, that could be different. I
> could see where they might be used in stuffing a chicken, even if
> inedible, and still not make the chicken inedible since they are
> being removed and discarded. Comments anyone? Perhaps its time to go
> back and review the comments in my olives-msg file. :-)
>
> However, I am also unlikely to find unprocessed olives here. Still,
> assuming the recipe is asking for processed olives only because I
> can't get unprocessed ones, doesn't sound like a good process.

Here's what Cato the Elder has to say about processing olives (he has
a lot to say about growing, picking and storing them, but here's
where it starts to become relevant) -- I plucked this off a webbed
translation of De Agricultura to save some typing:

> Conserving Lentils and Olives
> 116. How you should preserve lentils. Dissolve silphium in vinegar,
> soak the lentils in the silphium-vinegar, and stand them in the sun.
> Then rub the lentils with oil, let them dry, and they will keep
> quite sound.
>
> 117. How green olives are conserved. Before they turn black, they
> are to be broken and put into water. The water is to be changed
> frequently. When they have soaked sufficiently they are drained, put
> into vinegar, and oil is added. one half lb. salt to 1 peck olives.
> Fennel and lentisk are put up separately in vinegar. When you decide
> to mix them in, use quickly. Pack in preserving-jars. When you wish
> to use, take with dry hands.
>
> 118. Conserve green olives that you wish to use after the vintage
> thus: add equal parts must and vinegar; otherwise, conserve as
> described.
>
> 119. Green, black or mixed olive relish to be made thus. Remove
> stones from green, black or mixed olives, then prepare as follows:
> chop them and add oil, vinegar, coriander, cumin, fennel, rue, mint.
> Put in a preserving-jar: the oil should cover them. Ready to use.

I'd look at #117, for chicken-stuffing purposes, or if I were just
going and getting commercially prepared olives, my main advice would
be to avoid canned black olives, and look for those brined kalamatas,
or maybe even better, those little Moroccan oil-cured ones that look
like black prunes (which are also the easiest olive to pit, in my
experience). You also sometimes find cracked olives; I think these
are slashed through the skin down to the pit to allow for a
quicker/better transfer of narsty chemicals in the olive, and
better-tasting curing agents such as salt and wine.

>> I'd suggest experimenting with perhaps chicken breasts and
>> a variety of olives until you find a combination you find pleasing.
>
> Yes, if I can come up with evidence that it is likely a processed
> olive which is meant. I may find though,  that stuffing the chicken
> with olives has little effect upon the chicken, no matter what type
> of olive is used. :-)

Maybe, but then what would be the point of doing it and then removing
them? You pretty much need to strongly consider the possibility that
the olives will at least flavor the bird. Another possibility is that
the Romans, who mostly ate with their hands, and usually only one
hand, at that, might need to remove the olives from the bird's body
cavity, if only to get at them more easily.

> Perhaps the olives are removed after cooking because the olives are
> the unprocessed and inedible. Actually leaving the olives in the
> chicken is cooked and serving them that way sounds like it might be
> rather good, at least for processed olives. Especially with some
> added cheese. But maybe the roasting juices do something to the
> olives which makes it better to remove them.

It's possible, although technically, a boiled bird has no roasting
juices. But I agree with the general idea ;-).

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2005 10:03:36 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
From: smcclune at earthlink.net
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Apicius birds stuff with olives
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>

Yes, if I can come up with evidence that it is likely a processed olive
which is meant. I may find though, that stuffing the chicken with
olives has little effect upon the chicken, no matter what type of olive
is used. :-)
<<<

Well, at the last CookCon, we served this dish.  Yes, we used processed  
olives, because that was what we could get.  However, we did choose the  
Mediterranean style olives (Kalamata, etc.) rather than the California  
olives-in-a-can, because we felt that was the best choice we could make  
given the options available.

The olives gave the chicken a wonderful flavor, and the salt from them  
seasoned the birds nicely.  I would imagine that raw, unprocessed  
olives would have a different effect entirely, but our results were  
very satisfactory.

>>>
Perhaps the olives are removed after cooking because the olives are the
unprocessed and inedible. Actually leaving the olives in the chicken is
cooked and serving them that way sounds like it might be rather good,
at least for processed olives. Especially with some added cheese. But
maybe the roasting juices do something to the olives which makes it
better to remove them.
<<<

We sampled some before deciding to leave them in, since they were, in  
fact, quite tasty.  Again, I would imagine that raw, unprocessed olives  
might well produce a different result.

But since you were speculating about how the recipe might come out if  
processed olives were used, I thought I'd provide the data I had  
available.

Arwen
Caerthe, Outlands
(Denver, CO)

Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 04:53:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Kathleen Madsen <kmadsen12000 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Help with a sallat from Markham?
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

> Are Old Olives different from the regular ones? I'm assuming I am
> neither pitting nor slicing the olives. I was
> thinking of the olive type called 'dry' for the old olive.
> -- 
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika

Well, I think that the olive question is open to
interpretation.

Firstly, the longer an olive stays on the tree the
darker it gets; i.e., a green olive is young, bronzy
reddish is middle aged, and dark brown or black is
old.  So, they could be referring to a black olive.

Second, if it is aged in brine it could be considered
old.

Third, if it is sundried (to make it the dry type) it
could be preserved longer as well.  The sundried,
often called Morrocan, are lightly tossed in olive oil
and sometimes flavored with spices.

You could do a sample dish of all three types to see
what kind of flavor you'd get and which you prefer,
but I'd be happy documentation-wise with a choice from
any of the above - given the reasoning of course.

Eibhlin

Date: Sat, 28 Nov 2009 22:44:01 -0800
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

On 11/28/09 3:08 PM, "Mark Hendershott" <crimlaw at jeffnet.org> wrote:
<<< I am soon to harvest my olives.  First decent crop since planting the tree.
Can anyone point me to the medieval way of curing olives for eating?  If it
matters, the variety is Arbequina (sp?) a rather small Spanish type commonly
used for oil.

Simon Sinneghe
Briaroak, Summits, An Tir >>>

Platina has one. 
Eduardo

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 2009 07:53:04 -0600
From: Harry Billings <humble_archer at hotmail.com>
To: sca cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

http://members.cox.net/daverulz49/olive1.html
This web page has several ways.
plachoya 
Ansteorra

<<< I am soon to harvest my olives. First decent crop since planting the tree. Can anyone point me to the medieval way of curing olives for eating? If it matters, the variety is Arbequina (sp?) a rather small Spanish type commonly used for oil.

Simon Sinneghe  >>>

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 09:34:44 -0600 (CST)
From: "Pixel, Goddess and Queen" <pixel at hundred-acre-wood.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

On Mon, 21 Dec 2009, Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius wrote:

On Dec 21, 2009, at 2:06 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
< Do you mean green olives as compared to the black ones? Or green as 
opposed to ripe olives. I thought the difference between black and 
green olives was due to different processing. >

Yes and no, mostly no. Canned black olives aren't ripe, or at least not 
naturally so; they pretty much need to be unripe in order to be firm 
enough to withstand the mechanical pitting process.

However, olives can indeed ripen naturally on the tree (they still need 
some processing, generally).

< Does extracting olive oil not require ripe olives? >

No, usually it comes from green olives, it's my understanding. At least 
that is what I STR Cato saying on the subject. I think it's supposed to 
have a longer shelf-life, and possibly a better flavor, longer, if made 
that way.

Adamantius
----------------

On the episode* of "Dirty Jobs" that involved a small olive oil producer, 
almost all of the olives they harvested and processed into oil were green. 
IIRC the oil guy said something about "this is the way it's done" without 
explaining why they press green olives instead of ripe olives.

*one of only about six I have actually seen

Margaret FitzWilliam

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 11:00:04 -0600
From: Harry Billings <humble_archer at hotmail.com>
To: sca cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

Olives can be green or black when they are ripe. Depends on the verity. They still have to be "processed" in order to be edible, they are bitter till then. You can process them at home with a salt pack or salt water bath.

plachoya
Ansteorra

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:06:48 -0600
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

Ummm no. Black is ripe and green is not. But both are harvested.

Found this while trying to look for Harry's green variety (presently have no
luck).
http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/how-olive-oil-works1.htm

curing
http://tinyurl.com/ylhos9e

varieties but none say whether they are green or black when ripe.
http://tinyurl.com/ygmo9km

De
-----Original Message-----
Olives can be green or black when they are ripe. Depends on the verity. They
still have to be "processed" in order to be edible, they are bitter till
then. You can processes them at home with a salt pack or salt water bath.

plachoya
Ansteorra

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 12:06:48 -0600
From: "otsisto" <otsisto at socket.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

To my understanding, in Italy, the process will vary from company to
company. Some will harvest olives when half to most on the tree has just
started to turn black. A few will hand pick the ripened olives and press
them but usually they charge more for that oil. :)

-----Original Message-----
On the episode* of "Dirty Jobs" that involved a small olive oil producer,
almost all of the olives they harvested and processed into oil were green.
IIRC the oil guy said something about "this is the way it's done" without
explaining why they press green olives instead of ripe olives.

*one of only about six I have actually seen

Margaret FitzWilliam

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:15:05 -0800
From: Mark Hendershott <crimlaw at jeffnet.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olives

Last year when I had the handful of olives I put them in a pint jar 
with a heavy salt brine.  Changed it a couple of times when a scum 
developed and waited six months.  Worked out pretty well.  The 
variety is small so the product was not impressive to see but they 
tasted good.  don't remember exactly what proportions of salt to water I used.

Simon

Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 14:08:39 -0600
From: Harry Billings <humble_archer@hotmail.com>
To: sca cooks <sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks olives

<<< So, has anyone else cured olives? What did you start with? I've 
never seen fresh olives for sale.

Stefan >>>

When and if my olive trees bear "fruit" I plan to try curing olives. Try http://www.texasoliveoilcouncil.org/ you may find some one that has fresh olives for sale.

plachoya 
Ansteorra

Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:58:47 -0400
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus@optimum.net>
To: "sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Curing olives

A couple of weeks ago, I picked up a crate (16 lbs) of fresh, uncured green olives from a local Italian grocery. I divided them up among 5 crocks and started a bunch of different cures:

1) al-Warraq (cookbook, 10th century Baghdad)
2 & 3) Abu'l-Khayr (farm manual, 11th century Seville)
4) Geoponika (farm manual, 10th century Byzantium)
5) Ibn Razin (cookbook, 13th century al-Andalus and al-Maghreb)

Each cure is quite different, and I'm looking forward to seeing how they all work out. I will keep the list apprised of my progress.

I'm also trying to get my hands on a few pounds fresh, uncured black olives -- I've spoken to an olive farmer, who gave me the name of his NYC area distributor. Several of the cures in the above sources specifically call for black olives, so I hope I can get some to further my experiments. Again, I'll keep you all informed!

-- Galefridus

Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 13:24:36 -0500
From: Saint Phlip <phlip@99main.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Olive Oil

Excellent video on modern olive oil production.

http://www.eretz-gshur.co.il/video_eng.asp
-- 
Saint Phlip

Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2012 19:26:36 -0500
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus@optimum.net>
To: "sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Olive Oil

Interesting video -- very informative on how the types of oil vary depending on kind of olive, degree of ripeness, etc. Here's a source from 11th century Seville on the cultivation of olives. About 1/3 way down are instructions on extracting the oil. Not something that I as an East Kingdom person could experiment with easily, but maybe someone from the West Kingdom might try this or some other period methods.

http://www.filaha.org/khayr_final_translation_revised.html

Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2012 21:34:14 -0500
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus@optimum.net>
To: "sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org" <sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 80, Issue 2

Green olives can indeed turn black as they cure. But as they ripen on the tree, they progress from green through purple to black. And the black olives that you'd buy at an olive bar are made from ripe olives.

-- Galefridus

Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2013 16:42:08 +0000 (GMT)
From: galefridus@optimum.net
To: sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Black olives

Well, half of my black olives got infected with some kind of nastiness and turned to mush, so I had to discard them. But the other batch is doing quite well, and I'll shortly be proceeding to the next step of the cure.

Interestingly, the primary difference between the two batches was that in one, the olives were coated with oil prior to adding salt (the first step of the cure). The oil seems to have had some kind of preservative property, especially since there was a fair bit of cross contamination between the two batches.

The next step for the surviving batch will involve pickling the olives in an oxymel, prepared according to a recipe from Dioscorides. I'll continue to post updates as the cure proceeds.

-- Galefridus

Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2013 11:28:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Galefridus Peregrinus <galefridus@optimum.net>
To: sca-cooks@lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Kanz: First olive recipe

I've only gotten about a sentence or so into the first olive cure in the 
Kanz al-Fawa'id, but that one sentence is very interesting. I've looked 
at dozens of olive cures from antiquity to the 14th century, and found 
only one that came even close to using lye. All of the rest have used 
something else to accomplish the cure. But this first recipe from the 
Kanz calls for lime -- not the fruit, but the mineral. I'm pretty 
excited about this discovery -- hopefully I'll have time to complete the 
translation over the next few days and see where it goes!

-- Galefridus

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	olives-msg	Page  of