pickled-foods-msg – 5/7/14

Medieval pickled food. recipes. Pickled eggs, lemons, cheese, cucumbers, compost.

NOTE: See also the files: pickled-meats-msg, campfood-msg, food-storage-msg, canning-msg, drying-foods-msg, meat-smoked-msg, stockfish-msg, vinegar-msg, eggs-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: Aoife <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Keeping meat (was: one "pot" meal)
Date: 4 Sep 1996 20:22:54 GMT

Gracious gentles,

>> 3) soft cheese in oil. This sounds interesting. Can I just buy a soft
>> cheese and immurse it in oil?
>
>I  bought a jar containing lots of balls of a soft white cheese in olive
>oil at a middle eastern grocery before this Pennsic, and it kept fine at
>Pennsic. I haven't experimented with producing it myself.

Aoife: Several years ago "Marinated Mozzerella" was the culinary rage. 
Olive oil, a little balsamic vinegar, blanched garlic, and spices of your 
choice are briefly heated to kill any nasty bugs. When cooled, it is 
poured over cubed mozzerella or other semi-soft cheese. It keeps several 
weeks on the counter, several months or more in the 'fridge. I heartily 
reccomend this....cheese is wonderful when preserved this way.

>David/Cariadoc

Aoife
liontamr at ptd.net

From: Aoife <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Keeping meat (was: one "pot" meal)
Date: 9 Sep 1996 16:51:47 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki) wrote:
>I am currently running experiments on various means of pickling, and
>how long they will keep without refrigeration.  Right now, I'm
>pickling various vegetables in the Japanese tsukemono fashion.  
>
>First, a note:  I've always seen the signs say "refrigerate after
>opening", and I've always _bought_ tsukemono refrigerated, but of
>course, in period, they wouldn't have had either.  So I am assuming
>that, done properly, the tsukemono will keep for a while.
>
>Anyway, I'll post the results when I get them...
>
>Fujimoto

In Martha Washington's Booke of Cookery, (not THE Martha 
Washington...Columbia university Press, New York, 1981)Editor Karen Hess 
gives us some valuable advice: (Page 166-7, and regarding vegetables, but 
equally true of meat) "Straight pickling brine requires about 6 
tablespoons of salt per quart of water; if vinegar is added, far less is 
required, perhaps 1 or 2 tablespoons will do. Pickles should be examined 
occaisionally for mold; if there is as yet no sign of softening, all can 
be set right by draining off the liquor, boiling it for 10 or 15 minutes, 
rinsing off the pickles,and adding a new cold vinegar to the cooled 
liquor in sufficient quantity to cover the pickles once again."

Please forgive my impertinence if this advice isn't going to a novice, 
but....I reccomend you do further reading. In fact most old 
household-type cookery books have excellent examples of pickling or 
brining foods in recipes. BTW, do you have any japanese period cooking 
sources? Please share.

The best source for period information is the horse's mouth....

Aoife

From: jeffs at bu.edu (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: food preservative report
Date: 25 Sep 1996 21:40:52 GMT
Organization: Boston University

All right, the science experiment has succeeded...

I experimented a bit with pickled vegetables in a Japanese vein
(tsukemono), a great accompaniment with rice (and --- eek! --- takai
if you buy them yourself).  Here are the recipes (though they're also
on my web page: http://math.bu.edu/INDIVIDUAL/jeffs/index.html)

Cucumbers: three cucumbers, 2 cups water and 1/4 cup salt.  Keep the
cucumbers covered, let sit for a week in the fridge.  These kept about
a week at room temperature before mold started growing on them.

Chinese cabbage: rinse, separate leaves, and layer, liberally
sprinkling salt over each layer.  Let sit about a week in the fridge,
weighted down (if you don't want to buy a tsukemono presser, at
$ridiculous, use a plate and a heavy weight).  These have been sitting
out for about three weeks now, and are still fine.  

Next month...miso pickles?  We'll see...

Fujimoto

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: 21 Jan 1997 01:14:34 GMT

L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes: 
>I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for
>making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be
>strewn upon a grand Elizabethan Salad.

Robert May, _The Accomplisht Cook, 4th edition, 1678, has "To pickle
Lemons" and says simply "Boil them in water and salt, and put them up
with white-wine."

May also includes a number of things for "sallats" which would include
the grand sallat.  You may want to search out a copy.  Ditto for
Gervase Markham's _The English Housewife_, 1615, as edited by Michael
Best.  This you might find in a library.  He includes a number of salad
ideas including carving carrots into fantastic shapes and making
"strange sallats" with flowers composed of parts of vegetables.  May
would be an excellent resource.

May also has "Of pickling sallats" where he says "...they are only
boiled, and then drained from the water, spread upon a table, and a
good store of salt thrown over them, then when they are thorough cold,
make a pickle with water, salt, and a little vinegar, and with the same
pot them up in close earthen pots, and serve them forth as occasion
shall serve."

Seems to me there was at least one other reference to pickled lemons
but I can't find it right now.

Elise/Alys

From: jkrissw at aol.com
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: 21 Jan 1997 18:49:12 GMT

L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
>I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for 
>making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be strewn 
>upon a grand Elizabethan Salad. I have come across a recipe for *faking* 
>pickled lemons, but as it requires you have the liquid from the pickled 
>lemons to begin with, I am no farther forward. Failing a period recipe, 
>I'm willing to work from a description or best guess. 

Here's a recipe from Claudia Roden's "A Book of Middle Eastern Food" (not
necessarily period, but certainly traditional Egyptian):  

"Scrub lemons well and slice them.  Sprinkle the slices generously with
salt and leave for at least 24 hours on a large plate set at an angle or
in a collander.  They will become soft and limp, and lose their
bitterness.  Arrange the slices in layers in a glass jar, sprinkling a
little paprika between each layer."  (Note, as paprika is late-period at
best, you might want to experiment with other spices - coriander,
cinnamon, etc.)  "Cover with corn or nut oil.  Sometimes olive oil is
used, but its taste is rather strong and may slightly overpower the
lemons.  Close the jar tightly.  After about 3 weeks, the lemons will be
ready to eat - soft, yellow, and a beautiful orange color."

I've also heard a version where the lemons were first boiled (whole, not
wedged) before being packed in salt. That recipe also called for using
some "fake saffron" (safflower).  

Pickled lemons are quite interesting when used on a sandwich as one would
a "regular" pickle, adding a bite to almost any kind of meat sandwich. 
The Egyptians use it to spice up a "bisterma" (middle-eastern cousin of
"pastrami", but more garlicy) sandwich.

Daveed of Granada, AoA, CHA
From the Barony of Lyondemere in fair Caid
mka J. Kriss White in smoggy L.A.
jkrissw at aol.com

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: 22 Jan 1997 12:54:50 GMT
Organization: ProLog - PenTeleData, Inc.

Gracious Gentleperson,

    Thanks for your input. This sounds interesting! I have also been 
pointed in the direction of Robert May and Markham (later edition than 
the one I own). In addition I have found (been pointed to)several recipes 
for pickled lemon rinds using white wine and sugar (which was near to 
what I was looking for). I have preserved oranges, and can guess from 
that tasty experiment the procedure for pickling lemons whole. It's a 
darn shame I may have to go out and buy yet more cookbooks. Last month my 
cookbook shelf literally fell off the wall. Now I know better than to 
trust my valuable tomes to mere nails, wood and brackets!

    Actually this post went to both newsgroups at once. I indulge in both 
sins (hopefully at the same time ;^D).

    Your efforts may make it to the table at Aethelmearc's First Crown 
Tournament. Thank-you.

Lady Aoife Finn (who was born in "Fair Caid", in the city of Angels, and 
wishes she were there out of the snow right now).

From: jack at purr.demon.co.uk (Jack Campin)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: 23 Jan 1997 01:20:18 GMT
Organization: The Fluffiest Flat in Edinburgh

L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net> writes:
> I am searching for a source (unredacted) that will have directions for 
> making Pickled Lemons and the other sorts of things that might be strewn 
> upon a grand Elizabethan Salad.

Why not just buy them from a Middle Eastern food shop?  Is the modern
Egyptian bottled kind all that different from what the Elizabethans used?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin                                             jack at purr.demon.co.uk
T/L, 2 Haddington Place, Edinburgh EH7 4AE, Scotland       (+44) 131 556 5272 

From: cass <cass at telerama.lm.com>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:00:42 +0000
Organization: Telerama Public Access Internet, Pittsburgh, PA

I have just put together a small booklet on Feasting and Fasting Foods 
of Lent and Ramadan for a Food Fest weekend. Among the recipes I intend 
to share are several Torshi recipes of Egypt.
        I am an American but share my time between the US and Egypt. Torshi are 
pickled vegetables. They include turnips, onions, cucumbers, carrots, 
green hot peppers, olives, and lemons.
        The Egyptian lemons are small ones, the size of a large walnut. They 
are available int he United States. They are much more flavorful that 
American lemons.
Lamoon Mikhalel
Pickled Lemons
50 small lemons for juice
4 T salt
3 T black peppercorns
7 T saffron
50 small yellow lemons
8-10 pickling jars
        Squeeze the juice of 50 lemons and set aside. Combine salt, peppercorns 
and saffron and set aside. WAsh remaining lemons. Cut almost in half, 
leaving enought to keep them joined. Place a layer of lemons, sprinkle 
salt mixture, add another layer, sprinkle salt mixture, and continue 
until jar is filled. Pour enough juice to completely cover the lemons. 
Seal the jar. Continue until finished. Allow to ferment for three to 
four weeks.
There are two cookbooks you might me interested in
Egyptian Cooking by Samia Abdelnour. American University in Cairo Press 
(available through Columbia University Press (new edition currently in press)
and
Flavors of Egypt by Susan Torgersen available through Trade Routes 
Enterprises 518 Fourth Street Monessen, PA 15062. Price 20.00 plus 3 s&h
        Now I am interested in the history of Torshi in Egypt. Any ideas?
Cassandra Vivian

From: "Joseph M. Carlin" <foodbks at shore.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic,rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pickled Lemons
Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:12:09 -0500
Organization: Food Heritage Press

Every Friday I go to Boston's Haymarket to buy a half-pound of olives 
from one of the few Middle Eastern food stalls.  Yesterday (Jan 24) they 
had a five-gallon plastic bucket filled with pickled lemons.  This was 
the first time I had seen them in the mostly Italian food market.

From: charding at nwlink.com (Cathy Harding)
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 1997 18:52:14 -0800
Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels

Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood wrote about a sweet pickle from
Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121

This is a wonderful sweet pickle.  It is the one Cossette and I used in the
last feast we did.  It was the Janeltis feast held in the honor of the
Dowager Princess of An Tir at the An Tir Kingdom Kingdom A&S Championship.
We put up about 24 jars of it.  Because this was a visual as well as yummy
feast we did the Pears and green and red cabbage separately so that we
would have different colors on the plate and garnished it with fresh
violets and pansies (edible). It was a pickling extravaganza, and the
kitchen was quite sticky afterward!

We did it the weekend before the feast, it was part of the first course
which was all cold as we had the kitchen for a very limited time.

Maeve

From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 00:57:03 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - Pickles

linneah at erols.com wrote:
> Why haven't I seen more pickled things (veggies and meats) served at feasts?
> Is it because it takes too much planning or is there something else?
> 
> Linneah

It might be just that people don't want to store the food for long
enough in advance for the process to be completed. I've had good sucess
with the composte recipe from The Forme of Cury. It's a sort of cooked
pickle/jam/chutney. A bit like Italian mustard fruits.

Adamantius

From: L Herr-Gelatt and J R Gelatt <liontamr at postoffice.ptd.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 07:51:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: SC - Pickled Lemons-The Recipe-LONG

Maeve writes:
>Cosette the Nice and I just spent all day sunday putting up vegetables
>(pickled of course) which won't be ready until about september crown.  Last
>fall we pickled more vegetables which we are eager to taste in May.  Many
>pickled things take time to mature before they are ready to be served,
>sometimes months.  This often doesn't fit in to the feast planning
>schedule.
>
>We are always looking for pickle recipes and other ways of preserving
>fruits and vegetables for later use.  Anyone have any experience with this?
>
>Maeve
>charding at nwlink.com

OK. I can't resist showing off my new recipe, espescially since I trawled
all over the 'net begging for originals of the recipes I read about in a
third-hand source......Oh NO! It's the Pickled Lemons AGAIN!!!! The
copyright notice is for my protection. I may wish to write a cook-book one
day! The notice expressly forbids copying to another news group. Please note
this fact. It allows the use for Feasts and even for printing a menu/recipe
list, but only in an SCA context. As a point of interest, current law
provides that a recipe is sufficiently altered from an original if it
contains a 25 percent difference in ingredient contents and/or amounts, AND
the corresponding alteration in directions. Altering the directions with
different wording OR a slight alteration in ingredients is not sufficient to
avoid violation of copyright laws. Please accept my apologies for the
baldness and necessity of the copyright notice. Since we have taken the
honor of the SCA into a public forum, I feel it is necessary. 

The ancient, non-copyright originals:

Preserved Oranges (technique lifted, but not all ingredients).
The Good Huswife's Jewel --T Dawson, 1596
 
A Lemon Salat from A Book of Fruits and Flowers, printed by Thos. Jenner,
London 1653 (author unknown). I followed the ingredients but not the technique!

The recipe is a compilation of the two, and can not be considered a primary
source redaction of a medieval recipe. I have bothered to include it on the
sca-cooks list because it's fabulous, and must be tried to be appreciated.
In the past I have read several recounts of salads which had lemons or
pickled lemons strewn upon them. This was my attempt to re-create those
pickled lemons. Not having been alive in the 16th-17th century, I don't know
if I have succeeded. However, every now and then, a cook get a single recipe
for which they are most proud. Right now, this is mine. 

COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
The following recipe entitled "Pickled Lemons" is copyright  L. Herr-Gelatt,
1997, also known as Lady Aoife Finn of Ynos Mon within the Society for
Creative Anachronism, Inc., (SCA), and may not be reproduced in part or in
whole without express permission of the author, except for the one-time
transmission  originated by the author for the purposes of the newsgroup
"Sca-Cooks" and no other automated transmission, for storage in the Society
for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA) Cooking Archive Files of Mark S. Harris
for research purposes, or to be used privately for the purpose of Historical
Meal Planning and Cooking within the structure of the SCA, Inc. In all
cases, full credit should be given to the author. At the date of
transmission, the Author can be reached at liontamr at ptd.net or at RR 1 Box
500F Honesdale PA 18431. This copyright notice must accompany all versions
of the recipe unless the author gives express permission to exclude it.

RECIPE:

Pickled Lemons

2 blemish-free lemons
Juice  and zest of 1 lemon (no white)
1 cup white wine (sweet: Rhine wine is suggested)
1 c.  sugar
1/3 cup white or flavored vinegar (I used home-made costmary/lemon verbena
vinegar)

Cut a small round hole in the 2 lemons the size of the end of your little
finger. Remove the round piece of peel. Insert  a paring knife into the hole
and give it several twists to loosen and break the membranes. Insert little
finger and press gently against the flesh to try and loosen any pits. Remove
the pits that fall out, and reserve the draining lemon juice for syrup, below. 

Gently bring to boil 1 quart of water in a suacepan. Lower lemons into the
pan and boil rapidly 5 minutes. Remove and drain. Repeat 3 more times with
fresh water (it is more efficient to have one pan heating while boiling in
another). If the lemon rind is espescially thick, 1-3 more boilings will be
necessary.

Drain them well, saving the liquid that pools beneath them.

In a separate saucepan combine remaining ingredients (and the drained lemon
juice from above). Bring to a boil to combine, and turn off heat. When
lemons have been boiled in the 4 changes of water, put them (drained) into
the wine-syrup mixture and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer approx.
15 minutes or until syrup volume has reduced by 1/3-1/2. Cool. Remove lemon
zest and reserve for another use (it is now candied). To keep the lemons,
refrigerate lemons in syrup or can them in the syrup using normal heat
processing procedures.

Store in an airtight container. Slice lemons thinly or dice small  and use
in salads or to garnish desserts. The liquid produced, in which the lemons
are to be stored, refrigerated, or canned in by heat processing, is
excellent, and can be used on it's own as a dressing for salad or added to
water or seltzer for a refreshing drink.

I welcome any comments about the above recipe.

Aoife

From: "James L. Matterer" <jmattere at weir.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 11:49:41 -0700
Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels

Cossette wrote:
>Why haven't I seen more pickled things (veggies and meats) served at >feasts? Is it because it takes too much planning or is there something >else?
> 
>Linneah

Well, I've been making pickled dishes an integral part of every feast
I've done for the past several years. The most popular seems to be
English-style pickled eggs (which I usually make as part of a
Ploughman's Lunch, with pickled onions, bread, & cheese), but one of my
favorites is a dish called "Compost" which contains raisins, pears,
cabbage, walnuts, mustard seeds, anise seeds, white radishes... all
pickled together in white wine and honey. Here's the original recipe
with my redaction:

Compost
redaction by Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood

   "Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scape hem and waische
hem clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared and icorue. Take an erthen
panne with clene water & set it on the fire; cast alle thise therinne.
Whan they buth boiled cast therto peeres, & parboile hem wel. Take alle
thise thynges vp & lat it kele on a faire cloth. Do therto salt; whan it
is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vyneger & powdour & safroun & do
therto, & lat alle thise thynges lye therin al nyyt, other al day. Take
wyne greke & hony, clarified togider; take lumbarde mustard & raisons
coraunce, al hoole, & grynde powdour of canel, powdour douce & aneys
hole, & fenell seed. Take alle thise thynges & cast togyder in a pot of
erthe, & take therof whan thou wilt & serue forth."
- -Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121

   The following is a modified (but just as tasty) version of the
medieval recipe, containing only the "pasternak" (carrots- from the
botanical "pastinaca"), "caboches" (cabbage), "peeres" (pears) and
"raisons of courace" (currants). The other medieval ingredients are
"rote of persel" (parsley root), "rafens" (radishes), and "rapes" (white
turnip).

2 lbs. carrots, sliced                                                  
1/2 head cabbage, in small pieces
3-4 pears, sliced thin                                                  
1 tsp. salt                                                             
6 tblsp. vinegar                                                        
2 tsp. ginger                                                           
few threads saffron                                                     
1 bottle (750 ml.) white wine                                           
1/2 c. honey                                                            
1 tblsp. mustard seed                                                   
3/4 c. currants                                                         
1 tsp. cinnamon                                                
1/2 tblsp. each anise seed & fennel seed

   Boil the carrots and cabbage for several minutes, then add the pears.
Cook until tender; drain well. Lay vegetables and pears in a large,
flat, non-metallic dish. Sprinkle on the salt. Let cool, then sprinkle
on the vinegar, ginger, and saffron. Cover with a cloth and let stand
for several hours or overnight. When ready, mix the vegetables with the
currants and the seeds. Place in a sealable container and set aside. In
a separate pot, bring the honey, cinnamon, and wine to a boil, skimming
off the scum until clear. Remove from heat and pour over the vegetable
mixture. Let cool and seal. May be stored for a week or more. Serves 12
- - 15.

Bibliography: Hieatt, Constance B. and Butler, Sharon.  Curye on
Inglish: English Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century
(Including the Forme of Cury). London: For the Early English Text
Society by the Oxford University Press, 1985.

From: "Philip W. Troy" <troy at asan.com>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 14:10:02 -0400
Subject: Re: SC - SC Pickels

James L. Matterer wrote:
> 
> Well, I've been making pickled dishes an integral part of every feast
> I've done for the past several years. The most popular seems to be
> English-style pickled eggs (which I usually make as part of a
> Ploughman's Lunch, with pickled onions, bread, & cheese), but one of my
> favorites is a dish called "Compost" which contains raisins, pears,
> cabbage, walnuts, mustard seeds, anise seeds, white radishes... all
> pickled together in white wine and honey. Here's the original recipe
> with my redaction:

<Original recipe snipped for space>

I've loved this dish for several years. I'm interested in your mention
of walnuts above. The source you cite doesn't mention them, but the
recipe in Le Menagier for a similar dish does mention green, immature
nuts, probably walnuts although no specific type is mentioned. I've
tried this with immature almonds, which I can get at Middle Eastern
markets near me about once a year. When cooked they resemble those large
"Italian" string beans. 

>    The following is a modified (but just as tasty) version of the
> medieval recipe, containing only the "pasternak" (carrots- from the
> botanical "pastinaca"), "caboches" (cabbage), "peeres" (pears) and
> "raisons of courace" (currants). The other medieval ingredients are
> "rote of persel" (parsley root), "rafens" (radishes), and "rapes" (white
> turnip).

Pretty similar to what I make. One trick I've been using is to put the
mixture into sterile canning jars. You could argue that this defeats the
period purpose of pickling, but it does prolong the shelf life by quite
a bit, and any unopened jars can actually be saved for the next time you
might want them (including another event, if you're of a mind).
Actually, if sealed jars are refrigerated, the compost will keep for
upwards of a year with no serious diminution of quality.

This is a wonderful Pennsic food and is especially good with cold meats
or sausage. 

Adamantius

From: "Sue Wensel" <swensel at brandegee.lm.com>
Date: 22 Apr 1997 14:57:55 -0500
Subject: Re(2): SC - SC Pickels

> > Compost
> > redaction by Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood
> <snip!>
> > 1 bottle (750 ml.) white wine 
> <snip!>
> 
> This sounds really good.  Can anyone suggest something I could 
> substitute for the wine? (or am I out of luck on this one?)
> 
> Claricia Nyetgale
> Canton of Caldrithig
> Barony of Skraeling Althing
> Ealdormere  (still mostly in the Middle Kingdom)

Option 1:  Try to get non-alcoholic white wine.

Option 2:  Increase the amount of vinegar and water to approximate the amount
of white wine.  I think the ratio may be 1 part vinegar to 3 (or 4?) parts of
water.  You may also need to increase the sugar to account for the increased
tartness of the vinegar.

Derdriu

From: "James L. Matterer" <jmattere at weir.net>
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 1997 20:35:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Re(2): SC - SC Pickels

> This sounds really good.  Can anyone suggest something I could
> substitute for the wine? (or am I out of luck on this one?)

I would suggest using white grape juice that has been tempered with
cider vinegar or malt vinegar - just enough to sour the juice and
increase the acidity level to a close approximation of wine.

Master Ian

Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:11:30 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Compost: was SC - bird or bay?

<snip> 

It's a mixed pickle/chutney similar to Italian mustard fruits. Recipes
for it appear in le Menagier and in the Forme of Cury. The French
version calls for clove-and-ginger studded, immature nuts (probably
walnuts, but possibly hazels or some other type) to be pickled, along
with several other fruits and vegetables, each separately processed and
added to the mixture when their peak harvest date arrives (How's that
for thinking medievally, Aoife ;  )  )  The English version is much more
straightforward, with the various ingredients being parboiled, diced,
salted overnight, and added to a hot vinegar pickle / honey-mustard
syrup.

As I say, I have a recipe for making something like 50 pounds or more of
the stuff, and have not yet had the opportunity to reduce it to more
managable quantities...unless...
waitaminnit. Go to (those of you who can) these URL's:

http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/ppb.html#compot

and

http://www.adelphi.edu/~sbloch/sca/cooking/twelfth.night.html#Sauseges

The first URL has a recipe for a reasonable amount of compost made from
green almonds, in a synthesis of the French and English versions.

The second has a recipe for an ungodly huge amount of strictly English
compost. You can ignore the accompanying sausage recipe, which isn't
period anyway. Or not, as you wish.

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:07:41 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: pickles

Michael F. Gunter wrote:
> Isn't there a recipe in "The English Housewife" or one of the other more
> common sources for pickles?  I'm sure I saw a recipe for pickles just the
> other night.

Yup, you're right. Markham, and various other late period sources, do
include recipes for various types of vegetable and/or flower pickles.
Generally they call for a brief blanching in boiling water, and then a
bath in a vinegar-based sauce, which is usually cooked with sugar and
spices and then allowed to cool before using.

I'd sort of gotten into the habit of thinking of such sources as
marginally out-of-period, and thought first of the "High Middle Ages"
sources, which contain relatively few pickle recipes, as such.

Perfectly legit, of course.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:59:47 -0400
From: Aine of Wyvernwood <sybella at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Buried Foods (was - Composte)

add suerkraut to that list....originally it was put into crocks with a rock
inside to keep the cabbage beneath the vinegar and burried to keep it cool and
to ferment...my mom makes the stuff, tho she does not bury it - it is the same.
so sour that I make my poor little lips pucker in rememberance...but
fabulous on hot dogs.

Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 23:04:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Tyrca at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period suerkraut?

This is just my opinion, and not at all documented, but German Saurkraut is
made by salting the fresh cabbage, and leaving it in the crock to ferment on
its own.  It seems to me that this process didn't have to be imported from
anywhere, but could have risen very easily from a good housewife trying to
preserve some of her fresh cabbage through the winter.  We know that they
were already preserving meats this way.  I don't think it is that difficult
to see the progression.

Tyrca

Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 12:49:49 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - period suerkraut?

Brett and Karen Williams wrote:
> It is possible that the dish we know as sauerkraut is far older a
> technique than we can document, as is the general technique of
> salt/brine pickling. Without that documentation, though, a supposition
> remains a supposition.

True. For what it's worth, though, I understand that it is possible to
make sauerkraut without salt, under the right conditions. Apparently, in
relately cool but humid conditions (say, in a cellar in Germany) you can
press your shredded cabbage with a board and a weight, and it will exude
enough juice without the salt to begin lactic fermentation. Adding salt
may have been considered an improvement over this technique, but my
guess is that we'll never know.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 18:31:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: ANN1106 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - period sauerkraut?

Just came across an article in Saveur Magazine, Jan/Feb 1997 issue:
Page 48 sttes:
"The origins of sauerkraut are hotly debated in Alsace, but the basic notion
of fermented cabbage was probably brought to what is now Germany from China
in the late Middle Ages by invading Mongol hordes.  The earliest reference
to it in Alsace dates from the 15th century..."
Audrey - just lurking around because I have an interest in food history

Date: Mon, 08 Dec 1997 12:43:19 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at spambegone.asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Request for documentation: Honey Glazed Vegetables

Maddie Teller-Kook wrote:
> This recipe is from Terence Scully's latest cookbook: Early French
> Cooking. This recipe is a redaction from the Menagier de Paris.
>
> Honey Glazed Vegetables:
>
> for 5 lbs vegetables:
>
> 1 lb each (or chose any mix of a total = 5 lbs).

I could be wrong, but I think the recipe you mention is a very loose
adaptation of the recipe in Le Menagier [Take 500 new nuts, etc.], which
is essentially a sweet, spicy pickle of mixed vegetables, including
green nuts, carrots, pears, etc. There are similar recipes in both the
Forme of Cury (composte) and in Ein Buoch Von Guter Spise (the latter
using a similar sauce for cucumbers or root vegetables).

The only parsnip recipe I can think of, offhand, apart from parsnip
fritters of various kinds and composte, is from quite late period, or
after. I think it's in either Hugh Plat's "Delites for Ladies", or in
Digby's Closet. It is essentially boiled, mashed, parsnips, pureed with
butter and a bit of the cooking liquid to a creamy consistency. I'll see
if I can find it.

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 22:44:49 EST
From: melc2newton at juno.com (Michael P Newton)
Subject: SC - My entry to Queen's Prize Tourney

For those of you not in Calontir, last sat. was Queen's Prize Tourney,
our A&S main event of the year. Those of the Grant level award and above
sponsor those of us below that level and help/encourage projects in the
Arts and Sciences. At the event, the projects are laid out, with their
documentation, where the populace can show their astonishment and
appreciation for them (bowls are given and placed next to the projects so
that the populace can give trinkets and other things if they are really
impressed - I ended up with several beads, two small "empty" books, and
two bars of homemade soap) Judges, at scheduled times, normally in
threes, come around and do a face to face evaluation  with the person on
their entry. Instead of judging, they discuss what was good, bad, or
surprising, about the object and its documentation, and where you can go
to from here. It also gives you a chance to question people more
experienced than yourself on the chosen topic. At the evening court, the
sponsors call up their people and award them prizes, most of them made by
the sponsors themselves.(we had to evacuate the building in the middle of
court because a fire alarm went off, but that is another story)

My Cooking Entry was Pickled Lemons.
I had found several references to pickled lemons in _The Domostroi:Rules
for Russian Households in the Time of Ivan The Terrible_ edited and
Translated by Carolyn Johnston Pouncy (Thank you Brigid!) and decided to
see if I could find a salt brine lemon pickle recipe. I found a modern
one in _A Feast of Fruits_:
Moroccan Preserved Lemons
6 lemons, preferably thin-skinned lemons, about 1 13/4 lbs.
1/2 C. coarse salt (I used canning salt, so I think I overdid the salt a
bit)
One 1-inch stick cinnamon
1/2 teaspoon allspice berries (I know, allspice isn't medieval, but It
was the first time on the recipe so I didn't want to muck with the spice
blend. The judges suggested ginger/anise perhaps, next time)
1/2 teaspoon black peppercorns
2 whole cloves
1 bay leaf

Bring a pot of water to a boil. Add the lemons, return the water to a
boil, and cook 3 minutes. Drain, drop the lemons into cold water,
changing it once or twice to cool the lemons;drain again and dry.Stand
the lemons on end & cut them lengthwise nearly into quarters so that they
open out and remain attached at one end. Spread each open and sprinkle
the inside liberally with the salt;close it up and pack it into a
wide-mouthed 2-quart preserving jar,or two 1-quart jars, pressing down to
squeeze out some of the juice. Continue with the remaining lemons. Add
the apices to the jar/s along with the remaining salt, and pour fresh
boiling water up to the top. Wait until all the bubbles have risen, then
seal and sterilize. Store at least 1 month in a cool dry place. To use
rinse the lemons and quarter,slice, or chop them with or without the
pulp.

For demonstration purposes, I just chopped them up and put them on a
plate with toothpicks nearby. Of course, first I had to open one of the
jars. When I seal something, nothing gets in, not even the cook
apparently! Luckily I found a strong male friend who didn't mind the salt
brine soaking when he finally managed to open it! :-) I basically got two
reactions:  Why, that's.......interesting!?!?!
(polite way of saying "Good G*d! what did I just put in my mouth? blech!)
and WOW! where did you find this? this is wonderful! what would you use
it for? etc. It pleased me that there was more of the second than the
first. The judges were also very impressed that I was willing to go out
on a limb and try something completely different (at least in QPT terms).
They suggested that since, according to Pouncy, lemons were imported from
Italy via Poland or from Astrakhan, that I try to trace trade routes and
find if any of those countries had pickled lemons or recipes using
pickled lemons, period or modern.
So, does anyone have any info on trade routes to Muscovey from Italy via
Poland, or Astrakham (where is Astrakham anyways?)
Cariadoc,& Lord Ras, you are into Middle Eastern cooking, do you have any
recipes that call for pickled lemons? I have one 1-qt. jar left here, I
would like to know somethings to do with it.

Lady Beatrix of Tanet

Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:47:32 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - My entry to Queen's Prize Tourney

> So, does anyone have any info on trade routes to Muscovey from Italy via
> Poland, or Astrakham (where is Astrakham anyways?)
> Cariadoc,& Lord Ras, you are into Middle Eastern cooking, do you have any
> recipes that call for pickled lemons? I have one 1-qt. jar left here, I
> would like to know somethings to do with it.
> Lady Beatrix of Tanet

The primary trade routes into the Rus were up the Don from the Black Sea, up
the Volga from the Caspian Sea (Astrakhan is located on this route), and
across Northern Europe from Holland through the Northern Germanic States and
Poland or by sea across the Baltic (these latter being controlled by the
Hanseatic League).

You should also consider that in the late 15th Century under Ivan III (Ivan
IV "the Terrible" became Tsar about 40 years after Ivan III's death), the
Russians became very expansionist, probably because of their wars with the
Tartars, and were actively opening trade routes east to the Amur, which
became the Chinese-Russian border.  These became very important when the
Turks closed off the Mediterranean-Moscow trade in the 16th and 17th
Centuries.  I have no information on the extent of trade with Russia through
the Ottoman Empire.

The perishable nature of the lemon makes it a questionable trade good for
the overland trade unless already pickled or dried.  Your pickled lemons are
very likely part of this trade.

Lemons and oranges were delivered to England by ship in the 15th century and
sold at the dock as luxury goods.  Since this is the fastest way of
delivering Mediterranean lemons to Russia, I really would expect if they
were delivered fresh that it would be done over the Hanseatic sea route.

Bear

Date: Fri, 3 Apr 1998 21:46:31 -0800
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - camping without a cooler

At 12:59 PM -0800 4/3/98, Marisa Herzog wrote:
>But don't many of the things that get preserved have to be canned or contained
>in some manner which is also out of period?  I imagine pickled meat and other
>things must be sealed into a jar or some-such?

No. Pickled things are preserved by the salt and/or vinegar, not by being
sterilized and kept airtight like modern canned things. We normally keep
the pickled meat in a ceramic container with a ceramic lid--period
technology.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Sat, 4 Apr 1998 08:05:31 -0600
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
Subject: RE: SC - camping without a cooler

> >But don't many of the things that get preserved have to be canned or
> >contained in some manner which is also out of period?  I imagine pickled
> >meat and other things must be sealed into a jar or some-such?
>
> No. Pickled things are preserved by the salt and/or vinegar, not by being
> sterilized and kept airtight like modern canned things. We normally keep
> the pickled meat in a ceramic container with a ceramic lid--period
> technology.
>
> David/Cariadoc

Sauerbraten is traditionally prepared in a stoneware crock.  I sometimes
wonder how old the practice is.  I'm fairly certain it is at least medieval
and possibly earlier.

Bear

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 18:36:59 +1000
From: Robyn Probert <robyn.probert at lawpoint.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Compost recipe

Ras wrote:
>Yep, it's mine. :-) Problem was I call it something else entirely in my modern
>kitchen. :-) Sorry. The liquid measurements are accurate for the way I do it
>because as the harvest season progresses I add more of the fruits and veggies
>to it as the season progresses. I don't exactly know what the reduced amounts
>of liquid would be. The consistency should be like a relish (maybe slightly
>more liquidy so the main ingredients are submersed). Hope this helps.

Here is a redaction of the same recipie from "The Medieval Cookbook" by
Maggie Black, published by British Museum Press. This is a nice book which
*does* include the original with the redaction.

COMPOST

900g/2 lb  mixed parsley roots, carrots, turnip and radishes
450g/1 lb white cabbage
450g/1 lb hard eating pears
6 Tbsp salt
1 Tsp ground ginger
1/2 Tsp saffron threads
2 cups white wine vinegar
50g/2oz currants
2 1/2 cups fruity white wine
6 Tbsp clear honey
1 Tsp french mustard
1/8 Tsp each cinnamon and pepper
1/4 Tsp each anise and fennel seed
50g/2oz white sugar

Prepare the root vegetables and slice them thinly. Core and shred the
cabbage. Put these vegetables into a large pan of water and bring slowly to
the boil. Peel, core and cut up the pears and add them to the pan. Cook
until they start to soften. Drain the contents of the pan and spread in a
5cm/2in layer in a shallow non-metallic dish. Sprinkle with the salt,
saffron, ginger and 4 Tbsp of vinegar. Leave covered for 12 hours. Rinse
well, then add the currants. Pack into sterilised storage jars, with at
least 2.5cm/1in headspace.
Put the wine and honey in a pan. Bring to simmering point and skim. Add the
rest of the vinegar and all the remaining spices and sugar. Reduce the heat
and stir without boiling until the sugar dissolves. Bring back to the boil.
Pour over the vegetables, covering them with 1cm/ 1/2in linquid. Cover with
vinegar proof seals and store.

Rowan
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Robyn Probert
Customer Service Manager                Phone +61 2 9239 4999
Services Development Manager            Fax   +61 2 9221 8671
Lawpoint Pty Limited                    Sydney NSW  Australia

Date: Wed, 20 May 1998 22:48:58 -0700
From: "Anne-Marie Rousseau" <acrouss at gte.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Pickled things

Hi all from Anne-Marie
I am asked by Aislinn:
>    Anne-Marie, would you be willing to share your recipes for the
>    pickled things you mention?  I've been fascinated by pickling
>    lately, experimenting with "the Lord's Salt" and other recipes....
>    looking towards Pennsic and what I can take without
>    refrigeration....

the late sources (Dibgy, May, etc) pickle anything that doesnt move (and
likely a few things that do). We have recipes for pickled mushrooms and
capers and cukes (Apicius even does cukes in vinegar, several different
ways). the other stuff is a peri-oide way to get color and crunch and
flavor to the buffet table.

Pickled asparagus we buy in large jars (cheap!!) at Costco, the pickled
mushrooms are from the deli, or you can make your own (I use the recipe in
Fanny Farmer). Pickled eggs are made by taking the juice from pickled
beets, pickled onions and pickled cukes and pouring it over harboiled eggs.
The pickled carrots are my own (a relic from my blue ribbon 4H days).
Basically, I use the brine recipe for bread and butter pickles, plus a few
medallions of fresh ginger. Parboil carrot sticks till just tender, then
pack into boiling hot jars. top with boiling hot brine, and seal. We ate a
one year old jar this last weekend and they were still crunchy and tasty.

By the way, meat preserved with the Lords Salt is awfully tasty, especially
with a strong mustard. Ours never lasted long enough to test the
preservative powers, but I understand Cariadoc has done this bit of kitchen
science.

- --AM

Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 20:52:57 -0500
From: David Friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - cucumbers in period

>IIRC, there is a recipe in the Known World Handbook for vinegar marinated
>cucumbers that are served in sour cream. Its quite yummy. As well, I believe
>there are other recipes around. I have a question tho'. I do not experience
>this bitterness you are atributing to cukes? Coiuld they be of a different
>variety?
>
>Micaylah

Unless the recipe gives its source, it is not safe to assume that just
because it is in the Known World Handbook it is period. As best I recall
from reading the recipe article, a lot of them were ethnic recipes which
pretty clearly had not come from period sources.

Here is a period recipe (13th c. Andalusian) that uses cucumbers; it's in
the Miscellany.
- ---
A Muzawwara (Vegetarian Dish) Beneficial for Tertian Fevers and Acute Fevers
Andalusian p. A-52

Take boiled peeled lentils and wash in hot water several times; put in the
pot and add water without covering them; cook and then throw in pieces of
gourd, or the stems [ribs] of Swiss chard, or of lettuce and its tender
sprigs, or the flesh of cucumber or melon, and vinegar, coriander seed, a
little cumin, Chinese cinnamon, saffron and two ûqiyas of fresh oil;
balance with a little salt and cook. Taste, and if its flavor is pleasingly
balanced between sweet and sour, [good;] and if not, reinforce until it is
equalized, according to taste, and leave it to lose its heat until it is
cold and then serve.

2 c lentils     1 1/2 t cinnamon        one of the following:   1 1/2 lb
gourd (see p. 121)
5 c water       6 threads saffron               1 lb chard or beet leaves
1/4 c cider vinegar     1/4 c oil               1 lb lettuce
3/4 t ground coriander  1 t salt                2 8" cucumbers
3/4 t cumin                     melon (?)

Boil lentils about 40 minutes until they start to get mushy. Add spices and
vinegar and oil. Add one of the vegetables; leafy vegetables should be torn
up, gourd or cucumbers are cut into bite-sized pieces and cooked about
10-15 minutes before being added to lentils. Cook lettuce or chard version
for about 10 minutes, until leaves are soft. Cook gourd or cucumber version
about 20 minutes. Be careful not to burn during the final cooking.

David/Cariadoc
http://www.best.com/~ddfr/

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 07:15:54 -0500
From: vjarmstrong at aristotle.net (Valoise Armstrong)
Subject: SC - Sauerkraut

Yesterday I was reading Bernd Roeck's _Baecker, Brot und Getreide in
Augsburg_ and I ran across a list of markets in the city in the mid-16th
century. There was one market area specifically for sauerkraut. Still
haven't found any recipes for it, but since there was a designated area for
sauerkraut merchants I wonder if, in urban areas, it wasn't a guild
acrivity.

Valoise

Date: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:24:05 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Sauerkraut

Valoise Armstrong wrote:
> Yesterday I was reading Bernd Roeck's _Baecker, Brot und Getreide in
> Augsburg_ and I ran across a list of markets in the city in the mid-16th
> century. There was one market area specifically for sauerkraut. Still
> haven't found any recipes for it, but since there was a designated area for
> sauerkraut merchants I wonder if, in urban areas, it wasn't a guild
> acrivity.
>
> Valoise

Umm, I don't mean to be facetious here. Really I don't. But have you ever
smelled any place where large-scale production of sauerkraut was going on? I'd
be inclined to think that while keeping the sauerkraut merchants apart from
each other might be a good thing, another, and equally viable viewpoint might
be to keep them together, at the edge of the marketplace, and preferably downwind.

A couple of years ago I was in a car driven by my brother as we passed a town
in upstate New York (North Norwich?) that claimed to be "The Sauerkraut
Capital of the World", or some such. While I couldn't vouch for the
truthfulness of the claim, I know my brother almost lost control of the car,
the smell was so bad. I'm not talking about a simple sauerkraut smell here
(which I actually like), this was more along the lines of a sulphurous mustard
gas type of smell.

In any case, while there may be some substance to the idea of a guild having
their own little corner of the marketplace, there may also be some more
practical reason involved.

Adamantius

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 1998 09:03:06 -0400
From: Phil & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - pickled vegetables and fruits

Stefan li Rous wrote:
> Looking through the pickled-food-msg file in my Florilegium, I find that
> a number of the recipes don't seem to name specific vegetables. However,
> I did find the following ones mentioned:
>
> Lemons, oranges, raisins, pears, cabbage, walnuts, white radishes,
> currants, carrots, turnips, mushrooms, onions, cucumbers, lentils, chard.
>
> Many of these appear to be a mix of vegetables at once called compost
> and not just a single vegetable at a time.

Well, you know, it's an interesting thing. There's an English recipe for
compost in The Forme of Cury, which appears to make a product pretty similar
to the pickled nut recipe in Le Menagier de Paris, except it uses a slightly
smaller variety of fruits and vegetables, all more or less in season at the
same time.

The recipe in Le Menagier is, well, disguised, I think, as several recipes in
sequence, but it is, I think, one long, complex recipe. How closely it is
expected to be followed is in question, but basically the process seems to
call for making a nut pickle, then when something else on the list, that is
ready for harvest or market two weeks later, is available, it is cooked and
added to the original pickle, and so on. It seems likely the pickle is stored
in a stone crock with a lid, and items would be dipped out of it about as
frequently as they are added, but as autumn progresses the variety of the
pickle grows.

And, BTW, this stuff really does keep well, especially refrigerated. Of
course, before we worry too much about the fact that Le Menagier's bride
wouldn't have had refrigeration, we should consider the effects of storing a
wet pickle in a porous stone or earthenware jar in a larder or cellar, in
autmn. Maybe not 35 - 40 degrees Fahrenheit, but possibly not too far from
it, either.

Adamantius
Østgardr, East

Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 15:33:35 -0600
From: Melissa Martines <mmartines at brighthorizons.com>
Subject: SC - Vegetable Names

Help!  I am trying to redact the following recipe for compost:

Compost from Curye on Inglysch pp. 120-21

"Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scrape hem and waishe hem
clene.  Take rapes and caboches, ypared and icone.  Take an erthen panne
with clene water and set it on the fire; cast alle thise perinne.  When they
both boiled cast therto peeres, and perboil hem well.  Take alle thise
thynges and lat it kele on a faire clothe.  Do therto salt; when it is cold,
do hit in a vessal; take vynegar and powdour and safroun and do therto, and
lat alle thise thynges lye there all night, other all day.  Take wyne greke
and hony, clarified together; take lumbards mustard and raisouns coraunce.
All hoole, and gryne powder of canel, powder douce and aneys hole and fennel
seed.  Take all thise thynges and cast togyder in a pot of erthe, and take
therof when thou wilt and serve it forth.

I have a redaction by a Master Iain, but he leaves out some of the
ingredients, and I also don't agree with him on all his interpretations of
what is what.

If anyone has any documentation or educated guesses about what the following
items are, please let me know.  Thanks in advance!!

Rote of persel
Rafens
Rapes
Caboches

Also, did we ever determine if raisin of courance were currents or raisins?

Morgan MacBride

From: RAISYA at aol.com
To: herbalist at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: HERB - Pickles
Date: Thursday, November 05, 1998 4:28 PM

OK, I tried this one out, and my kids say they're delicious (I don't care for
pickles myself).  So I thought it might be worth sharing, these could probably
be canned as presents, though I guess it is a little late for cucumbers most
other places <G>.

"TO PRESERVE COWCUMBERS ALL THE YEERE.  (DELIGHTES FOR LADIES, Sir Hugh
Plat, 1609)

You may take a gallon of faire water, and a pottle of veriuyce, and a pinte of
bay salt, and a handfull of greene Fennell or Dill:  boile it a little, and
when it is cold put it into a barrell, and then put your Cowcumbers into that
pickle, and you shall keepe them all the yeere."
(notes - A pottle is 4 pints.  Bay salt is vague, I used sea salt)

I divided the quantity in half, putting a half gallon of water, a quart of
apple cider vinegar (verjuice is hard to find), a cup of sea salt and a couple
of tablespoons of dill and put them into a pot.  Slowly, I brought it to a low
boil, then removed it from the heat.  When it cooled, I put the brine in a
gallon jar, and added several sliced up cucumbers.  I left it out on the
counter overnight, then stored it in the fridge.  That was about 10 - 12 days
ago, we just opened them for the first time.  I'll have my husband test them
tonight and tell me how close they are to modern pickles.

Raisya

Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:46:43 EST
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - pickles

>  > Dill Picles
>  > Bread and Butter Pickles

Dill pickles are sharp, not sweet.  Bread and Butter pickles are very sweet,
with spices such as cloves.

I'll have to call back home to get the recipe.

Mordonna

Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 12:24:08 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Apician Carrots

LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> troy at asan.com writes:
> << The closest I can find in Apicius is
>  a dish of carrots in cumin sauce, ....<snip>.... you'd have a
>  honey sauce for carrots. Sort of.
>
>  Adamantius >>
>
> Apicius does recommend a method of storing vegetables which is taking young
> vegetables and covering them with honey. I presume the honey was not
> discarded in the preparation of the vegetable later on but stranger things
> have been found.
>
> Could this be the origins of the dish? Are there any recipes in Apicius which
> might provide evidence on how vegetables preserved in honey were used? And,
> were carrots one of the vegetables preserved in this manner? If the honey
> preservative was used and carrots were preserved in this manner then, this
> may be the answer to the origins of the recipe and to the answer to why it is
> attributed to Apicius. Are there any Apician scholars on the list who might
> know the answers to these questions? Llewellyn, perhaps (although I am unsure
> if he is still subscribed)?
>
> Ras

There's a recipe nearly identical to medieval Compost or the French
equivalent green nut preserve, in a vinegar/mustard/honey sauce. It is
for turnips (rapae), though, and doesn't say whether the vegetables are
preserved raw or cooked. It just says to clean them. I'm tempted to
think this might be just for preserving them, though, if the turnips are
indeed raw when sauced.

Adamantius

Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 21:26:18 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: SC - OOP pickled cherry recipe was cherry-vinegar syrup drink

>Could I have the recipe for the pickled cherries?

Of course!

>Pickled cherries are
>mentioned in SCA-period Russia, but no recipes.  Alright, I could do the
>legwork myself, but I'd rather have a tried-and-true recipe.

Really?, if you could share info on where you've seen the mention, I'd
appreciate it.  Most of my canning goes to gifts at Yule, so now I know what
to give two Russian gentleman of my aquaintance.  It would be nice to add a
note about the theoretical periodness, esp. for the teenager.

The following is, of course, NOT a period recipe.

Pickled Cherries
From: In a Pickle or a Jam, Vicki Willder, Creative Home Library 1971
Note: these pickles go well with roast chicken, duck, or pork.

24 cups Bing cherries, about 6 lbs
4 tablespoons whole cloves
6 cups sugar
1 cup vinegar

1. Stem and pit cherries (if you don't have a cherry pitter, one of those
pouring tubes for bottles of oil makes a nifty one. It looks nicer to have
whole cherries instead of sliced.)
2. Tie cloves in a piece of cheesecloth (I lacked the cloth so just tossed
them in.)
3. Combine cherries and remaining ingredients in a heavy kettle.
4. Heat to boiling, simmer 45 minutes.
5. Remove the spice bag, spoon hot mixture into hot sterilized jars and
seal.

I put the cherries in first and then filled with the vinegar syrup to 1/2
inch of top. Leftover syrup tasted pretty good but was thin.  cherries had
put out a lot of liquid.  I simmered and tweaked the sugar and vinegar to
get it to a senkajabin consistency.  Then it thickened more when cool so
maybe I needn't have.

Bonne

Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1999 23:10:48 -0700
From: "Robert C. Lightfoot" <celtcat at almatel.net>
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #1669

> earlier this summer I posted re: my experience making pickled cherries and
> making a drink syrup with the leftover pickled vinegar.  Someone stated that
> the pickled cherries were a traditional dish in Russia. I'd like more
> information on that if the person is still around, or if anyone else has
> heard this.
>
> Lady Bonne de Traquair
> Buckston-on-Eno
> Windmasters' Hill
> Atlantia

I'm not sure what your recipe for the cherries was, but at least one of my basic Russian cookbooks contains a recipe for marinated cherries using assorted spices, vinegar, sugar & water.[_Art of Russian Cusine_ by Anne Volokh.]

 _A Taste of Russia_ by Darra Goldstein {formerly _A la Russe_] also has a recipe for spiced pickeld cherries and mentions that when Peter the Great returned from Holland intent upon Westernizing Russia, he brought along the idea of serving pickled fruits with meats and this practise was well accepted.

Lady Siobhan ni Ahearn
Camden Tor
Meridies

Date: Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:41:06 GMT
From: kerric at pobox.alaska.net (Kerri Canepa)
Subject: SC - Need help with "Compost"

And I don't mean that stuff you put in your garden...

I'm looking at Form of Cury and specifically at Compost. I'm having more trouble
than I'd like figuring out the ingredients and cooking process. Here's the
recipe as best that I can type it, considering I don't have the special
characters or superscripts.

Note: ? are the funny "p" character for the hard "th" sound, I'm guessing.

Take rote of psel (parsley root?), pasternak of rasens (carrots? parsnips?),
scrape hem and waisthe he clene, take rap (turnips) & caboch (cabbage) ypared
and icorne. take an erthen pane w clene wat & set it on the fire. cast all ?ise
?inne. when ?ey buth boiled cast ?to peer (pears?) & pboile hem wel. take ?ise
thyng up & lat it kele on a fair cloth, do ?to salt whan it is colde in a vessel
tkae vineg (vinegar) & powdo & safron & do ?to, & lat all ?ise thing lye ?in al
nyzt o? al day, take wyne greke and hony clarified togid lumbarde mustard
&raisons corance al hoo. & gyne powdo of canel powdo douce & ancys (anise) hole.
& fenell seed. take alle ?ise thing & cast togyd i apot of erthe. and tkae ?of
whan ? wilt & sue forth.

My guess is you take all the parsley root, carrots or parsnips, turnips and
cabbage, chunk them up and boil them in water. Then I'm not so sure. Looks like
pears are parboiled and added or just added and parboiled, the whole thing is
taken out of the cooking water and let cool. When cool it's put back in a pan
with salt, vinegar, and saffron where it's allowed to sit for a period of time.
Then greek wine and clarified honey along with lombard mustard, dried currents,
powdered cinnamon, powder douce, whole aniseed (?) and fennel seed are added.
It's served at room temperature.

Can anyone tell me if I'm on track or way out in left field?

Anyone want to take a guess on Greek wine and Lombard mustard?

Last question, it appears this is a "have it around just in case" dish; would it
have been served at dinner?

Kerri
Cedrin Etainnighean, OL

Date: Sat, 02 Oct 1999 03:13:14 EDT
From: Korrin S DaArdain <korrin.daardain at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Need help with "Compost"

On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 22:41:06 GMT kerric at pobox.alaska.net (Kerri Canepa)
writes:
>And I don't mean that stuff you put in your garden...
>
>I'm looking at Form of Cury and specifically at Compost. I'm having
>more trouble
>than I'd like figuring out the ingredients and cooking process. Here's
>the
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Compost
        Forme of Cury 103. Copyright 1997 by L. J. Spencer, Jr. (a.k.a.
Lord Ras al Zib) Posted by Lord Ras (LrdRas at aol.com). Reposted by
Bronwynmgn (Bronwynmgn at aol.com)
        Take rote of parsel, of pasternak, rafens, scrape hem and waische
hem clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared and icorue. Take an erthen panne
with clene water & set it on the fire; cast all (th)ise (th)erinne. When
(th)ey buth boiled cast (th)erto peeres, & perboile hem wel. Take alle
(th)ise thynges vp & lat it kele on a faire cloth. Do (th)erto salt; whan
it is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vinegar & powdour & safroun & and
do (th)erto, & lat alle (th)ise thynges lye (th)erin al ny(gh)t, o(th)er
al day. Take wyne greke & honey, clarified togider; take lumbarde mustard
& raisouns coraunce, al hoole, & gynde powdour of canel, powdour douce,
anys hole, & fenell seed. Take alle (th)ise thynges & castt togyder in a
pot of erthe, & take (th)erof whan (th)oui wilt & serue forth.
        There is a redaction in 'Pleyn Delit which, IMHO, deviates away
from the original in very significant ways so I am not posting it. My
translation and redaction follows:
        Take parsley root, parsnips, radishes, scrape them and wash them
clean. Take turnips and cabbages, pared and cored. Take an earthen pan
with clean water and set it on the fire; cast all this therein. When they
both boiled cast therein pears, and parboil them well. Take all these
things up and let it cool on a fair cloth. Do thereto salt; when it is
cold, do it in a vessel; take vinegar and powder and saffron and do
thereto, and let all these things lie therein all night, other(wise) all
day. Take Greek wine and honey, clarified together; take Lumbard mustard
and raisins of Corinth (currants ?), all whole, and grind powder of
cinnamon, powder douce, anys whole, & fennel seed. Take alle these things
and cast together in a pot of earth, & take thereof when thou wilt and
serve it forth.
        1/2 cup parsley root, peeled and diced
        6 parsnips, peeled and diced
        1 medium black radish, peeled and diced
        1 lb. turnips, peeled and diced
        1 gallon cabbage, cored and chopped
        2 quarts winter pears, peeled, cored and chopped
        Salt
        1 bottle Retsina (Greek wine)
        2 cups honey
        2 quarts cider vinegar
        ........................................
        Powder:
        1 cup sugar
        1 Tbs. ground cloves
        1 Tbs. ground cinnamon
        2 Tbs. ground ginger)
        ........................................
        1 tsp. saffron
        1/2 cup ground white mustard (the supermarket variety)
        1 lb. dried currants
        1 tsp. cinnamon
        .......................................
        Powder douce:
        1 cup sugar
        1 tsp. ground cloves
        2 tsp. ground cinnamon
        2 tsp. ground ginger
        1 Tbs. ground cubebs (opt.)
        2 tsp. ground galingal (opt.)
        1 Tbs. grains of Paradise (opt.)
        ........................................
        1 tsp. aniseed
        1 tsp. fennel seed
        Place parsley root, parsnips, radishes, turnips and cabbage in a
non-reactive kettle (e.g. enamel, glass, or Teflon. Cover with water.
Bring to a boil. Add pears. Reduce heat to medium and cook until pears
are barely tender. Drain; spread on a cloth. Sprinkle with a substantial
amount of salt and leave until cold. While mixture is cooling, bring wine
and honey to a boil, removing the scum as needed. When the scum stops
rising remove from heat. Put cooled cabbage mixture into a non-reactive
kettle. Add vinegar, powder and saffron. Let sit in a cool place for 12
hours. Add remaining ingredients to the wine/honey mixture, stirring well
to make sure that the sugar is dissolved. Add wine/honey spice mixture to
cabbage/pear mixture and blend carefully. Store in a cool place and use
as needed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Compost
        From Hieatt, Constance B. and Butler, Sharon. Curye on Inglish:
English Culinary Manuscripts of the Fourteenth Century (Including the
Forme of Cury). London: For the Early English Text Society by the Oxford
University Press, 1985. Redaction by Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood.
Posted by James L. Matterer (jmattere at weir.net)
        Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121: "Take rote of persel, of pasternak,
of rafens, scape hem and waische hem clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared
and icorue. Take an erthen panne with clene water & set it on the fire;
cast alle thise therinne. Whan they buth boiled cast therto peeres, &
parboile hem wel. Take alle thise thynges vp & lat it kele on a faire
cloth. Do therto salt; whan it is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vyneger
& powdour & safroun & do therto, & lat alle thise thynges lye therin al
nyyt, other al day. Take wyne greke & hony, clarified togider; take
lumbarde mustard & raisons coraunce, al hoole, & grynde powdour of canel,
powdour douce & aneys hole, & fenell seed. Take alle thise thynges & cast
togyder in a pot of erthe, & take therof whan thou wilt & serue forth."
        The following is a modified (but just as tasty) version of the
medieval recipe, containing only the "pasternak" (carrots- from the
botanical "pastinaca"), "caboches" (cabbage), "peeres" (pears) and
"raisons of courace" (currants). The other medieval ingredients are "rote
of persel" (parsley root), "rafens" (radishes), and "rapes" (white
turnip).
        2 lbs. carrots, sliced
        1/2 head cabbage, in small pieces
        3-4 pears, sliced thin
        1 tsp. salt
        6 tblsp. vinegar
        2 tsp. ginger
        few threads saffron
        1 bottle (750 ml.) white wine
        1/2 c. honey
        1 tblsp. mustard seed
        3/4 c. currants
        1 tsp. cinnamon
        1/2 tblsp. each anise seed & fennel seed
        Boil the carrots and cabbage for several minutes, then add the
pears. Cook until tender; drain well. Lay vegetables and pears in a
large, flat, non-metallic dish. Sprinkle on the salt. Let cool, then
sprinkle on the vinegar, ginger, and saffron. Cover with a cloth and let
stand for several hours or overnight. When ready, mix the vegetables with
the currants and the seeds. Place in a sealable container and set aside.
In a separate pot, bring the honey, cinnamon, and wine to a boil,
skimming off the scum until clear. Remove from heat and pour over the
vegetable mixture. Let cool and seal. May be stored for a week or more.
Serves 12.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Korrin S. DaArdain
Kitchen Steward of Household Port Karr
Kingdom of An Tir in the Society for Creative Anachronism.
Korrin.DaArdain at Juno.com

Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1999 17:41:19 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Need help with "Compost"

korrin.daardain at juno.com writes:
<< 3/4 c. currants >>

The currants specified in the recipe are NOT regular currants (Ribes) but
rather Zante raisins, otherwise known as raisins of Corinth (raysons of
courance). They are marketed in grocery stores as 'Dried Currants-Zante' or
some such. Their flavor is distinctively different from the acidic fruit of
the genus Ribes.

Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 11:36:15 EDT
From: ChannonM at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Preserves & Sauces - recipes wanted

An example of a pickled recipe that worked well was a Roman dish using beets,
I pickled it and just ate the last jar this summer. I served the feast 2
years ago.

Here is the recipe
Betas/Beets
The recipe I chose to create  is based on two recipes from Apicius:
Book III Section II-4
Beetroot, another method, from Varro. Varro writes:” Take beetroot, rub clean
and cook in mulsum with a little salt and oil, or boil in water and oil with
salt; make a broth, and drink it. It is even better if a chicken has been
cooked in it first.”
and
Section XI-2
Boiled beets, another method- They are good served with a dressing of
mustard, a little oil and vinegar.

I chose to preserve the beets using a modern pickling method in order to take
advantage of the early preparation and  availability of fresh beets at a good
price. To make the recipe without canning, simply leave out the last step.
Some  variation  was used in the recipe presented, for example ; honey was
used in place of mulsum in the preserving process. Honey is one of the chief
ingredients in mulsum according to Flower & Rosenbaum.
Adapted Recipe
My recipe is based on the ingredients of the Apicius recipes and the pickling
recipes  that my grandmother used.
1 1/2 lbs fresh beets
1 1/2 cups white vinegar
1/2 cup water
1/2 cup honey
1 TB mustard seed

Boil the beets until the skins begin to fall off. Rinse and remove skins.
Chop into quarters or leave whole if small enough.
Combine remaining ingredients and boil for 5 minutes. Add beets and heat
through. In prepared canning jars spoon beets to shoulder of the jar, pour
over juice to within * inch of  lip and seal.
Makes 2-3 pints

Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 21:51:31 -0500
From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>
Subject: Re: SC - "Old Food"

Stefan li Rous <stefan at texas.net> writes:
> Christianna commented:
> > Then there's the compost we made last November...
[ie: Over a year old -Stefan]
>
> I, for one, would be interested in hearing how well the compost
> has held up or tastes when you get around to trying it. The reports
> that I have in the Florilegium on composts have been from folks who
> ate it much sooner than this.

        Well, it has held up its original flavor pretty well.  I actually think
that it was not crisp enough at the beginning, but it certainly isn't
anything like mush now, just not what I'd want from pickles.  My lord has
been eating it right along, and feels that it is getting better as it
ages.  He is gone for one more week (I feel like I'm the only person in
the Nation waiting for Christmas Day to actually start Christmas) and I
will have him taste-test it when he gets home and give you a report.  I
have kept pickled vegetables (both home-made and commercial) for years,
in fact my roommate and I had the most intense pickle experience either
one of us has ever had, with a whole, Kosher Vlassic Dill with garlic.
It was slap-your-mama good, we both stood in the kitchen and made hooting
noises for about 5 minutes.  It was the last one left in the jar, and had
been sitting in the refrigerator for years.  It was just a shame that it
was the last one left.
        Christianna

Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1999 23:34:17 EST
From: Mordonna22 at aol.com
Subject: SC - OOp - Homemade Sauerkraut

BanAvtai at aol.com writes:
<<
 Oh darn, I was hoping the note was the recipe for the homemade sauerkraut.
  >>

Here's Auntie Ruth's recipe

3 large, firm heads of cabbage
6 handsful of salt

Shred cabbage.  In a large crockery churn layer the cabbage with the salt.
Cover with a clean white cloth, weighed down by a stone.  Allow to sit in a
cool, dark spot for three to six weeks.  Bring to a boil and can.

Mordonna the Cook,
SunDragon's Western Reaches
Atenveldt
(m.k.a. Buckeye, AZ)

Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 20:17:18 +1100
From: The Cheshire Cat <cheshire at southcom.com.au>
Subject: Re: SC - Pickled Onions and Eggs - Recipes please

I don't know about pickled onions, but I have a recipe for pickled shallots
which I am assuming would be similar in techniqe and possibly the same
technique and recipe could be used. I'd recommend small onions.  They taste
fabulous with the spices.

First of all the spiced vinegar:

30g peppercorns
10g blade mace
10g cloves
6 bay leaves
15g crushed fresh ginger
2.5 tsp mustard seeds
10g whole allspice
10g cinnamon stick
2 tsp celery seed
1 Tbs salt
4C malt vinegar

Mix all the spices and salt together in a saucepan and add .5C of the
vinegar.  Bring to the boil.  Boil for two minutes.  Add the rest of the
vinegar and boil for another three minutes then strain and cool.  Make more
than this, you will need it.

Pickled Shallots:

1kg shallots
3 Tbs coarse salt
5 cups of the spiced vinegar

Peel the shallots and stand them in a shallow dish.  Sprinkle with the salt
and stand them overnight.
Put the shallots in a colander and allow to drain thoroghly.
Pack them into jars, arranging so there are no large spaces and fill the
jars with the vinegar making sure there is at least 1cm of the vinegar
covering the top of the shallots.
Put two layers of greaseproof paper and then one layer of aluminium foil on
top of the jars and tie securely.
Keep for four weeks before using.

Sweet Pickled Shallots

1kg shallots
2l water
1.5C coarse salt
5 cups spiced vinegar
1/2C sugar

Peel the shallots
Boil the water with the salt and allow to cool.
Pour half the brine over the shallots and allow to stand for two days.  Drain
Pour on the remaining brine and allow to stand for two more days.
Drain and rinse the shallots
Put the shallots in a saucepan with the spiced vinegar and the sugar.
Bring to the boil.  Reduce heat and simmer for ten minutes
Pour the shallots and the vinegar into jars
Cover with two layers of greaseproof and one layer of foil.  When cool tie
securely.
Keep for three weeks before serving.

Hope this helps
- -Katerine

Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 13:29:19 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #2090

ChannonM at aol.com wrote:
> << The feast sounds fabulous....but I have one concern regarding the third
> dish in the second course....How long had this been sitting around?
>
>  Balthazar of Blackmoor
>   >>
> I preserved it using modern canning methods, I'm not worried about it's shelf
> life if that's what you mean.
>
> If you are playing with the name then, here see for yourself the recipe and
> know that eventually, you can add it to your garden if you like! :)
>
> Compost
> Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121
> "Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scape hem and waischehem
> clene. Take rapes & caboches, ypared and icorue. Take an erthenpanne with
> clene water & set it on the fire; cast alle thise therinne.Whan they buth
> boiled cast therto peeres, & parboile hem wel. Take alle thise thynges vp &
> lat it kele on a faire cloth. Do therto salt; whan itis colde, do hit in a
> vessel; take vyneger & powdour & safroun & dotherto, & lat alle thise thynges
> lye therin al nyyt, other al day. Takewyne greke & hony, clarified togider;
> take lumbarde mustard & raisonscoraunce, al hoole, & grynde powdour of canel,
> powdour douce & aneyshole, & fenell seed. Take alle thise thynges & cast
> togyder in a pot oferthe, & take therof whan thou wilt & serue forth."- -
>
> My own composition of  ìCompostî was devised based on the original recipes,
> however I considered the location and incorporated a more Irish flavour by
> using a honey mead and a cider vinegar in the pickle.
>
> Compost in Ireland
> 1 .50 lb carrots
> .50 lb parsley root
> 1 lb turnips
> .50 of  white cabbage
>
> Soaking brine
> .25 cup sea salt
> .5 cups cider vinegar
>
> Pickle
> 1 quart --mead
> 1 cup honey
> 1 Tbsp crushed mustard seed
> 1 tsp anise seed
> 2 tsp fennel  seed
>
> Peel wash and core vegetables. Slice thinly.
> Place in non reactive container and add the soaking brine. Let sit overnight
> or several hours.
>
> Mix mead, honey and spices. Bring the pickle to a boil and add vegetables.
> Put vegetables in sterilized jars and pour over hot pickle juice. Seal and
> store in a cool place. Makes about 6 pints.
>
> Hauviette

I have redacted the same recipe, but came up with something a little different...

(makes about 4 cups)
6 radishes                        4 cabbage leaves           1 parsnip
2 turnips                          1 pear                    1 tsp. salt
1 1/2 C. red wine vinegar 1/2 tsp. pepper                   1 pinch saffron
1 1/2 C. Sweet Wine       4 tbsp. honey                      1/2 tsp. Cinnamon
        (Marsala)
1 tsp. fresh ginger root    1/4 tsp. mace                       1/4 tsp. cloves
        finely diced
1/2 tsp. fennel seed          1/4 cup currants                   1 T. Lumbard
Mustard

(made from another

recipe)
1/2 tsp. whole anise seed

1.  Chop root veggies and pear into chunks, cabbage into 2" strips.
2.  Parboil root vegetables and cabbage in water until almost tender
3.  Add pear to vegetables and continue parboiling until tender.  Drain & cool.
4.  Marinate in a cool place overnight.  Drain liquid from mixture.
5.  Heat wine and honey together until clarified.
6.  Add spices and currants to wine/honey mixture, mix thoroughly, then cool.
7.  Gently mix with vegetable/fruit mixture.  Store, refrigerated, then serve
chilled.

Notes:
1.  Recipe calls for "wyne greke" or Greek Wine, which the glossary in Curye on
Inglysch defines as "...a sweet type of wine which actually came from Italy..."
Marsala fit this description nicely.

2.  I omitted the parsley root as it was unavailable at the time.

3.  I define "poudre" here to mean pepper.

4.  The "...lumbarde mustard..." is taken from another recipe in Forme of Curye.

5.  I have found numerous descriptions of "powdre douce" which vary widely, often containing sugar, cinnamon, ginger, mace and cloves.  I have omitted the sugar as I feel the dish is sweet enough with the honey and sweet wine.  I have also used fresh ginger as has Terence Scully in his Early French Cooking in recipes which call for this mixture.  I also believe that it adds more to the sweet-sour contrast that was popular in this period.

So you see, mine is a different...but yours is so much simpler.  The result of
what I did is, as noted by others, similar to a chutney.

Kiri

Date: Wed, 20 Sep 2000 08:54:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at tulgey.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - pickled melon documentation

> I've been wanting to find documentation for pickled fruits in period, for no 
> better reason than I am a fan of pickled fruit. If you could tell me where I 
> should have been looking all this time, I'd be happy.

The pickled Melon _recipe_ in the Domostroi may be postperiod (I don't
have my copy with me, but Yana will know) but mentions of pickled melon
and other fruit are in the period portion of the Domostroi.

Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 15:31:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: SC - pierogys

> If you are adhering to strict historical accuracy, I don't think you can
> truly document sauerkraut or pirogi, although both are probably "period."

Dembinska gives part of a sauerkraut recipe:
Mikolaj Reg in "Zywot czlowieka pozciwego" (1568) describes a sauerkraut
method: "Having romoved the outside leaves of some nice
heads of cabbage, cut them in half and fit them neatly into a vat,
spreading beet chards & dill between the layers"
I don't know whether the original specifies the kind of brine to use...
- -- 
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise	      jenne at tulgey.browser.net

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 22:43:33 +0100
From: TG <gloning at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Sauerkraut (was pierogys)

<< Does anyone have any documentation regarding ... sour krout >>

For Germany, the use of sauerkraut is well attested since the Middle
ages. (...)

For Hungary, there is a passage in one of Rumpolt's (1581) menues for a
banquet of the King of Hungary and Bohemia:
"...  Ein saur Kraut gekocht mit einem ger‰ucherten Speck/ vnd d¸rren
W¸rsten/ vnd auch mit ger‰ucherten Capaunen vnd H¸ner"
'... sauerkraut cooked with smoked bacon ...'
(Rumpolt was born in Hungary.)

For Prussia, there are inventaries of the German order mentioning vats
or barrels with "kompost", "kompostkol", "suercompist" etc. in the 15th
century, with "sawerkrawt" in the 16th century. [1] However, the earlier
Jeroschin chronicle says that "kol", from which sauerkraut is made, was
unknown to the Prussians in early days ("... gesen die brudre ezzin kol,
des di Pruzin nicht inpflagin nutzin dennoch bi den tagin", roughly '(a
visitor) saw that the brethren were eating cabbage, which the Prussians
themselves did not eat in those early days').

TH.
[1] Quotes from these inventories can be found in: Brunhilde Reitz: Die
Kultur von 'brassica oleracea' im Spiegel der deutschen Sprache [The
culture of brassica oleracea/cabbage in the mirror of the German
language]. Diss. Marburg. Giessen 1964.

Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:55:46 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - keeping of saurkraut

Stefan li Rous wrote: 
> Adamantius replied to me with:
> > > If Saurkraut is pickled cabbage, and it was originally pickled as a
> > > preservative technique, why does it need to be stored in the
> > > refrigerator section today?
> > >
> > > Is this simply overkill and a waste of resouces? Or is today's saurkraut
> > > indeed changed from the way it was done a hundred years ago, before
> > > commercial refrigeration such that it now needs refrigeration?
> > >
> > > They sell jars of pickles (pickled cucumbers), pickled peppers,
> > > pickled carrots and pickled onions on the non-refrigerated shelves.
> >
> > There's a degree of pickling (and remember sauerkraut is a lactic
> > fermentation, not a vinegar pickle) at which things like sauerkraut and
> > dill pickles become, well, nasty and unattractive, while still perfectly
> > safe to eat. Overpickled vegetables lose their crunch and acquire a
> > flavor most people find too strong.
> 
> So are you saying that the saurkraut sold in the store today has
> less pickling than that needed when used for preservation without
> refrigeration? In that case, it would appear that the "modern"
> saurkraut is not similar to period saurkraut and may be a poor
> choice for one of our feasts.

No, I'm not saying that. The preservation of sauerkraut, like many such
processes including the making of cheese,  is an ongoing process, and
the fermentation can keep up for a long time. If you don't refrigerate
fresh sauerkraut, such as that sold in bags or out of barrels in bulk,
it will get soft and very sour indeed, as does kim chee and several
other fermented cabbage preparations. That doesn't mean, though, that
preferences have changed from a pre-refrigeration society to the
present. Sauerkraut (or various other pickled vegetables) may well have
been preferred fresher and milder in flavor during our period (which is
probably why we seem to prefer it that way, too), but unlike a medieval
farmer, we don't generally depend on our ability to preserve our crop.
We can dump out that soft, sour kraut and get a new batch without
looking back or worrying about starving.

Bear in mind also that in the areas where sauerkraut proliferates, it
doesn't tend to get really hot, and that there are methods of keeping
food cool that don't involve evaporating and recompressing freon. I also
suspect that there's a standard time of year when sauerkraut wouldn't be
eaten (probably from, say, July through September), and wherein low
quality happens to coincide with unavailability. In other words, you
make your sauerkraut in late September or so, keep it cool in a stone
crock, possibly in a cellar, and eat it through about July first,
arranging to use up the last of it before it gets unpleasant. Then you
eat other stuff until the first batch of fresh kraut is ready> A food
available even 75% of the year is still plenty enough to characterize
and define a cuisine, no?  

So no, I wouldn't say that just because unrefrigerated kraut gets a bit
nasty after a while, that fresh kraut is not a good representation of
period sauerkraut. BTW, have we established the periodicity of
sauerkraut in Europe? I forget. We have so many of these discussions ;)   

Adamantius

Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 11:14:12 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Meat Preservation Sources

There seems to be some talk about meat
preservation so I thought I would mention
these books...

Food Conservation. Ethnological Studies.
edited by Riddervold and Ropeid.
24 papers from an international conference
held in 1987. ISBN: 0907325408
Pub. by Prospect Books, 1988.

Pickled, Potted, and Canned. How the Art and
Science of Food Preserving Changed the World.
by Sue Shephard. NY: Simon and Schuster, 2001.
This is new. no footnotes but there is a
bibliography. Quite readable.

For actual instructions on how to preserve at home
take a look at:
Stillroom Cookery by Grace Firth. McLean, VA: EPM
Publications, 1977.

Subject headings in case you want to do some
online exploring through library catalogues are

Canning and preservation-History
Food-Preservation-History

Johnnae llyn Lewis  Johnna Holloway

Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2001 08:19:32 -0500
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Cabbage Question

XvLoverCrimvX at aol.com wrote:
>From what I read about pickling cabbage, all I saw was sauerkraut (which i'm
> guessing is the pickled form of green cabbage). When I ate sauerkraut, it
> seemed to have a slight apple taste. Is this normal and is their a difference
> in pickling red and green cabbage or is it a different brine or is it a
> different process?
>
> Misha

A different process. Sauerkraut is salted and/or compressed to form a liquid conducive to lactic fermentation. Lactobacilli build up in the liquid and in the kraut itself, and produce lactic acid, whose pH is what actually does the preserving. More or less. Red cabbage is traditionally pickled in vinegar, most of the time.

Adamantius

From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 06:00:34 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] German Pickles

Well, in the next few days i'm going to make the pickles for the Boar
Hunt Feast that's on Dec. 8. I had planned on four kinds: red
cabbage, cucumber, beets, and mushrooms.

But now i'm thinking maybe i should only make two of the German
pickles. I'm definitely making my version of Pickled Champignons -
based on recipes by Eleanor Fettiplace and Digbie. So, i have two
problems/questions for your perusal.

FIRST QUESTION
I'm trying to decide whether or not to eliminate one of the German
pickles. I have two German recipes for "pickles". I have worked up
two variations on the first, one for cucumbers, one for red cabbage.
The second recipe is for beets with horseradish.

Think i should make all four (the German pickles are not much work),
or eliminate one, and if so, which one? I'm cooking for 80 diners, at
10 tables. I'm serving four meat dishes.

Here are the original German recipes. Comments in [square brackets] are mine.

Ein Buch von Guter Spise, 14th c.
48. Ein condimentlin (A condiment)
Mal k=FCmel und enis mit pfeffer und mit ezzige und mit honige. und
mach ez gel mit saffran. und tu dar zu senf. in disem condimente maht
du sulze persilien, bern und clein cumpost oder r=FCeben, waz du wilt.

Translated by Alia Atlas
Flavor [my note: or does "mal" mean "grind"?] caraway seeds and anise
with pepper and with vinegar and with honey. And make it gold with
saffron. And add thereto mustard. In this condiment you may make
sulze (pickled or marinated) parsley, and small preserved fruit and
vegetables [my note: it actually says "compost", and are "bern"
berries?] or beets, which(ever) you want.

I have worked up two variations on the first, one for cucumbers with
mustard, one for red cabbage without mustard, each with slightly
different spicing.

Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581
3. (in the chapter on accompaniments to fried meat)
Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/
Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/ sonderlich wenn die Ruben
geschnitten/ gesotten mit halb Wein und halb Essig.

Translated by M. Grasse:
Red beets preserved with small cut horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and
a little caraway/ special if the beets are cut/ marinated in half
wine and half vinegar.

QUESTION NUMBER TWO

The "Ein condimentlin" recipe calls for mustard. Is this more likely
to be powdered mustard or a "prepared" mustard, such as Lombard
mustard?

BTW, here are the recipes i worked out for the pickles...

* Marinated Beets with horseradish - Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581

10 large red beets, cut into medium-small chunks
2 cups red wine
2 cups red wine vinegar (but white or cider will do)
several cups prepared horseradish - the kind that's just horseradish,
vinegar, and salt
1-1/2 TB salt
1 tsp whole anise seed
1 tsp whole caraway seed
2 tsp whole coriander seed

1. Cut up beets.
2. Combine all ingredients except beets in a pot. Bring to a boil,
then lower heat and simmer 5 minutes
3. Add the beets and heat through.
4. Place in non-metallic container and let stand for 24 hours.
5. Taste and adjust seasonings.
6. Keep in refrigerator until serving.

=0C* A condiment of Cucumber - Ein Buch von Guter Spise, 14th C.

3/4 tsp whole caraway seeds
3/4 tsp whole fennel
3/4 tsp whole dill seed
1 tsp whole peppercorns
2/3 cup honey
2 cup white wine vinegar to cover, more as needed (white will do, but
not cider)
1/2 tsp salt
1/4 tsp saffron
1 tsp mustard powder
5 cucumbers, sliced in circles

1. Prepare cucumber.
2. Mix caraway, fennel, and dill seeds with salt, pepper, vinegar,
and honey. Then add saffron..
3. Put in saucepan and bring to a boil, stirring until the honey
melts into the vinegar. Remove from heat.
4. Put cucumbers in warm marinade. Make sure there is enough marinade
to cover. If not, make more.
5. Let stand for at least 1 hour.
6. Taste and adjust seasonings.
7. Keep in refrigerator until serving.
[NOTE: i substituted fennel seed for anise and added dill seed]

* A condiment of Red Cabbage - Ein Buch von Guter Spise, 14th C.

1 TB caraway seeds, whole
2 tsp ground anise
2 tsp ground pepper
1 tsp salt
1 quart red wine vinegar
2 cups honey
3 or 4 heads of Red Cabbage

1. Prepare cabbage.
2. Mix caraway seeds, aniseed, pepper, salt, honey and vinegar. Then
add saffron.
3. Put in saucepan and bring to a boil, stirring until the honey
melts into the vinegar. Remove from heat.
4. Put cabbage in warm marinade. Make sure there is enough marinade
to cover. If not, make more.
5. Let stand for at least 1 hour.
6. Taste and adjust seasonings - add more vinegar if needed.
7. Keep in refrigerator until serving.
[NOTE: i left out the mustard from the original recipe so it would
taste different from the cucumbers]

Thanks for any ideas,
Anahita

Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:27:00 -0700
From: grasse <grasse at mscd.edu>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: German Pickles, Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #996

You are correct, I would interpret mal as grind.  bern sounds like berries,
the Rueben are roots.. Rote Rueben are red roots (beets) Gelbe Rueben are
yellow roots (carrots) Weisse Rueben are white roots (turnips usually)
so pick a root or 3 (grins)

on the rumpolt recipe.. I would probably suggest trying fresh horseradish root
slivers rather than the prpared stuff, the brine would become VERY cloudy from
the prepared horseradish.  (the original speicfies slivers of root.)  I have
made it with slivers of horseradish root in the brine and it adds zip and
flavor but the brine stays beautifully clear.

As for if to make all the pickles or not...  smaller amounts of all 4 is a
nice variety thing.. but 2 or 3 might be enough too.
I think you are right on target with the 5 cucumbers for 10 tables if you do
all 4, I think 2 cabages should be plenty, on the beets.. it might be more
cost effective to go for canned beets (sliced even or whole for a different
shape and then cut into quarters) I have noticed little difference in the end
results with fresh vs canned beets.  I would bet 3-4 cans (14-16 oz) for 10
tables (enough for those who like beets and those who are curious, and not
much waste).

Gwen Cat

Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 10:47:45 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] recipes re: lots of pickles

Arte asked:
>  Would you mind sharing the recipes you have for pickling?  I just got
>  involved in pickling this year (last year I was making jams...yummy),
>  so if you wouldn't mind to share?

Well, i didn't make the pickles you're asking about, but, i have
worked out recipes that i made for Boar Hunt 2001 for on my website:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/2001Relishes.html
The lemons with pomegranates is a fresh relish. The rest are pickles.
I made several gallons of each for the feast.

-- Lemon chopped with sugar and sprinkled with pomegranate seeds -
Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, German, 1581
-- Marinated Beets with horseradish in red wine vinegar and red wine
with spices - Marx Rumpolt
(needed more horseradish, IMO)
-- A condiment of Cucumber - in white wine vinegar with spices,
saffron, and mustard - Ein Buch von Guter Spise, German, 14th c.
-- A condiment of Red Cabbage -in red wine vinegar with honey and
spices - Guter Spise
-- Pickled Button Mushrooms - in white wine vinegar and white wine,
with spices and fresh ginger - "Lady Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt
Book", late 16th century, and "Sir Kenelm Digbie's Closet Unlock'd
(or is it Open'd?)", mid-17th century

The whole menu with access to all the recipes is at:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/2001Menu.html

And there's the Compost recipe i made for Boar Hunt 2000 - 4 gallons
of the stuff. Most of it got eaten.
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/compost.html
It's really good as a side dish, sort of like a chutney - goes with
chicken, pork, vegetables... I made my own Lombard mustard for this.
It was quite good.

The whole menu with access to all the recipes is at:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/menu.html

Anahita

Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:49:59 -0800
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Lots of pickles

From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
>  > > The recipe from Von Guter Spise is my very favorite.  I have found though
>  > > that making it as close as possible to the actual event time is best. It
>  > > tends to get really really really strong and have quite a bite after a
>  > > couple of days.  I have made a couple of modifications to mine from the
>  > > original recipe.  Instead of peppercorns I use cubebs (only
>because I don't
>  > > use pepper at home, I use cubebs, so I didn't have pepper) and
>lacking white
>  > > or wine vinegar I use(d) champaine vinegar although I have made it with
>  > > other kinds.  We served this at Baronial Birthday and it was very well
>  > > recieved.
>  >
>  >Recipe please!!!!!
>  >
>  >Avraham
>
>Hey, has someone got this?  I don't have the recipe here at work with me
>unless it is in my other email account.  Well, if you don't get it Avraham,
>let me know and I'll get it to you.
>
>Olwen

I already sent a link to it to the list in the [Re: [Sca-cooks]
recipes re: lots of pickles] message i sent Tue, 26 Feb 2002, at
10:47:45. Here it is again. For those who don't have web access, i'll
include the original recipe below.

----- Previous Message -----
Arte asked:
>   Would you mind sharing the recipes you have for pickling?  I just got
>   involved in pickling this year (last year I was making jams...yummy),
>   so if you wouldn't mind to share?

Well, i didn't make the pickles you're asking about, but, i have
worked out recipes that i made for Boar Hunt 2001 for on my website:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/2001Relishes.html
The lemons with pomegranates is a fresh relish. The rest are pickles.
I made several gallons of each for the feast.

-- Lemon chopped with sugar and sprinkled with pomegranate seeds -
Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, German, 1581
-- Marinated Beets with horseradish in red wine vinegar and red wine
with spices - Marx Rumpolt
(needed more horseradish, IMO)
-- A condiment of Cucumber - in white wine vinegar with spices,
saffron, and mustard - Ein Buch von Guter Spise, German, 14th c.
-- A condiment of Red Cabbage -in red wine vinegar with honey and
spices - Guter Spise
-- Pickled Button Mushrooms - in white wine vinegar and white wine,
with spices and fresh ginger - "Lady Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt
Book", late 16th century, and "Sir Kenelm Digbie's Closet Unlock'd
(or is it Open'd?)", mid-17th century

The whole menu with access to all the recipes is at:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/2001Menu.html

And there's the Compost recipe i made for Boar Hunt 2000 - 4 gallons
of the stuff. Most of it got eaten.
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/compost.html
It's really good as a side dish, sort of like a chutney - goes with
chicken, pork, vegetables... I made my own Lombard mustard for this.
It was quite good.

The whole menu with access to all the recipes is at:
http://witch.drak.net/lilinah/menu.html

----- End Previous Message -----

Here are the recipes themselves from my web page:

ORIGINAL
37, Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581
Lemon chopped with sugar and sprinkled with pomegranate seeds

How I made Lemon-Pomegranate Relish

10 medium lemons
5 pomegranates
plenty of granulated sugar

1. Peel pomegranates, separating seeds into a large bowl, removing
all pith. Pomegranates contain tannin and will stain clothes and
hands. Be sure to wear an apron - and latex gloves if you wish.
Sprinkle seeds with sugar.
3. Chop lemons up completely and finely, removing only the seeds.
5. Mix with pomegranate seeds.
4. Sprinkle with lots sugar. Let stand. Add more sugar as necessary.

ORIGINAL
Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581
3. Rote Ruben: Red beets preserved with small cut horseradish/ anise/
coriander/ and a little caraway/ special if the beets are cut/
marinated in half wine and half vinegar.

How I made Red Roots (Marinated Beets with Horseradish)
makes about 1 gallon

              10 large red beets, cut into medium-small chunks
              2 cup red wine
              2 cup red wine vinegar (white or cider will do)
              1-1/2 feet of fresh horseradish root, peeled and cut into slivers
              1-1/2 TB salt
              1 tsp whole anise seed
              1 tsp whole caraway seed
              2 tsp whole coriander seed

1. Cut up beets.
2. Combine all ingredients except beets in a pot. Bring to a boil,
then lower heat and simmer 5 minutes.
3. Add the beets and heat through.
4. Place in jar or crock and let mellow for at least 24 hours, up to
two weeks in a cook place.

NOTE: I thought this needed more horseradish. Next time i'll add some
prepared horseradish (the kind made of nothing but horseradish, such
as Bubbie's).

ORIGNIAL
A condiment
Ein Buch von Guter Spise, 14th century
48. Ein condimentlin. Flavor caraway seeds and anise with pepper and
with vinegar and with honey. And make it gold with saffron. And add
thereto mustard. In this condiment you may make sulze (pickled or
marinated) parsley, and small preserved fruit and vegetables, or
beets, which(ever) you want.

How I made A Condiment of Cucumber
makes about 1 gallon

              5 cucumbers, peeled
              3/4 tsp whole caraway seeds
              3/4 tsp whole fennel seeds
              3/4 tsp whole dill seed
              1 tsp whole peppercorns
              1/2 tsp salt
              2/3 cup honey
              2 cup white wine vinegar to cover, more as needed (white will do)
              1/4 tsp saffron
              1 TB powdered mustard

1. Grind caraway, fennel, and dill seeds with salt and pepper.
2. Mix in vinegar and honey.
3. Add saffron and mustard.
4. Put in a saucepan over low heat and stir until the honey melts
into the vinegar. Remove from heat.
5. Put prepared cucumbers in warm marinade and let stand for at least 1 hour.
6. Taste - adjust seasonings as needed. Keep covered in cook place until feast.

How I made A Condiment of Red Cabbage
makes more than 1 gallon - but i managed to jam it into a one-gallon container

              4 heads of Red Cabbage, cored and shredded
              1 TB whole caraway seeds
              2 tsp whole anise seeds
              2 tsp whole peppercorns
              1 tsp salt
              4 cups red wine vinegar
              2 cups honey

1. Grind caraway seeds with aniseed, salt, and pepper.
2. Mix in vinegar and honey.
3. Add saffron and mustard.
4. Put in a saucepan over low heat and stir until the honey melts
into the vinegar. Remove from heat.
5. Put prepared cabbage in marinade and let stand for at least 1 hour.
6. Taste - adjust seasonings as needed. Keep covered in cook place until feast.

                      NOTE: I made the pickling liquids different,
                      so they wouldn't taste the same.

Pickled Button Mushrooms

To Pickle Mushrooms
Lady Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book, 16th century

Take your Buttons, clean ym with a sponge & put ym in cold water as
you clean ym, then put ym dry in a stewpan & shake a handful of salt
over ym, yn stew ym in their own liquor till they are a little
tender; then strain ym from ye liquor & put ym upon a cloath to dry
till they are quite cold. Make your Pickle before you do your
mushrooms, yt may be quite cold before you put ym in. The Pickle must
be made with White-Wine, White-Pepper, quarter's Nutmeg, a Blade of
Mace & a Race of ginger.

Pickled Champignons
Sir Kenelm Digbie's The Closet Open'd, 17th century

Cut the great ones into halves or quarters, seeing carefully there be
no worms in them; and peel off their upper skin on the tips: the
little ones, peel whole. As you peel them, throw them into a basin of
fair-water, which preserves them white.

Then put them into a pipkin or possnet of Copper (no Iron) and put a
very little water to them, and a large proportion of Salt. If you
have a pottle of Mushrooms, you may put to them ten or twelve
spoonfuls of water, and two or three of Salt. Boil them with a pretty
quick-fire, and scum them well all the while, taking away a great
deal of foulness, that will rise. They will shrink into a very little
room. When they are sufficiently parboiled to be tender, and well
cleansed of their scum, (which will be in about a quarter of an
hour,) take them out, and put them into a Colander, that all the
moisture may drain from them.

In the mean time make your pickle thus: Take a quart of pure sharp
white Wine Vinegar (elder-Vinegar is best) put two or threee
spoonfuls of whole Pepper to it, twenty or thirty Cloves, one Nutmeg
quartered, two or three flakes of Mace, three Bay-leaves; (some like
Lemon-Thyme and Rosemary; but then it must be a very little of each)
boil all these together, till the Vinegar be well impregnated with
the Ingredients, which will be in about half an hour. Then take it
from the fire, and let it cool.

When the pickle is quite cold, and the Mushrooms also quite cold, and
drained from all moisture: put them into the Liquor (with all the
Ingredients in it) which you must be sure, be enough to cover them.
In ten or twelve days, they will have taken into them the full taste
of the pickle, and will keep very good half a year. If you have much
supernatant Liquor, you may parboil more Mushrooms the next day, and
put them to the first. If you have not gathered at once enough for a
dressing, you may keep them all night in water to preserve them
white, and gather more the next day, to joyn to them.

How I made Pickled Champignons
makes about 1-1/2 gallons

A. Make pickle

              3-1/2 quarts white wine Vinegar
              3-1/2 quarts white Wine
              3/4 cup plus 2 TB whole peppercorns
              1/2 oz. whole Cloves
              7 Nutmegs, quartered
              14 flakes of Mace
              21 Bay-leaves
              7" fresh ginger

1. Mix vinegar with Pepper, Cloves, Nutmeg, Mace, Bay-leaves and sliced Ginger.
2. Bring to boil and simmer until Vinegar is well impregnated with
the Ingredients, about half an hour. Add a few spoonfuls of water if
the liquid shows signs of evaporating.
3. Remove from fire, and let cool, leaving all spices in it.

B. Prepare Mushrooms

              14 quarts Button Mushrooms, well cleaned and halved or quartered
              4 cups water
              7 TB Salt

1. Clean mushrooms just before cooking.
2. Put mushrooms in a non-iron pot with water and salt.
3. Bring to boil, then simmer. They will shrink into a very little
room. Parboil until tender, about 15 minutes.
4. Drain, and let cool.

C. Pickle the Mushrooms

1. When both pickle and mushrooms are cold, put mushrooms in spiced
liquid (with spices). If there isn't enough liquid to cover, make
more pickling liquid.
2. Keep in a cool place for 10 or 12 days.
3. If you have too much liquid, parboil more mushrooms the next day,
and add them.
4. Keep covered in cool place until feast.
5. If for immediate consumption, pour pickling liquid on mushrooms
while they're hot. Cool before eating.

----- End Recipes from my web site -----

Anahita

From: "Lorenz Wieland" <lorenz_wieland at earthlink.net>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Keeping color of red cabbage
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 12:09:42 -0700

Cera Chonaill wrote:
> Quick question. How does one maintain the nice deep red color of the
> red cabbage when pickling it? Mine, while the taste is still there,
> losses it's color and ends up pinkish.

Red cabbage is, frankly, a pain in the butt.  I'm hardly a pickle-master,
but I did learn a few things about red cabbage when experiementing with
German cooking.

First off, use only stainless steel or anodized aluminum for any metal
implement that will come in contact with the cabbage, or anything that will
later come in contact with the cabbage like your pickling liquid.  Red
cabbage is highly reactive with iron, and the slightest bit will cause it to
become pink (or, in more extreme cases, blue).  I'd also check your water if
it's not purified -- tap water tends to have a fair bit of iron in many
places.

Second, blanch the cut leaves for a few seconds before further cooking.
This fixes the color better in most brightly colored veggies.  I'm not 
Sure how this would affect pickling, but it may be worth a try.

Finally, acid is your friend.  I assume this isn't a problem with most
pickles, but other forms of cooked red cabbage really, really want lots 
of acid to avoid the veggies turning into pink-grey goop.

-Lorenz

Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 11:09:25 EDT
From: UrthMomma at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks  Help with documenting pickles
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

I am probably having an attack of the stupids, but I am having trouble 
finding early documentation of pickled foods, vegetable or dairy,  I'm looking for brined or vinegar based pickles, not sugar preserves. 

For mid and late period documentation, The English Housewife gives 
directions for making pickled sallats, cucumbers, purslane and samphire. The English Housewife has sausage recipes, Sabina Welserin gives pickled tongue recipes and good sausage recipes, preserving veal with salt and vinegar, smoked beef, smoked tongue. Le Menagier de Paris speaks of salting beef, mutton , coot, hams, bacon, beef tongue, goose, hare, eel, herring, and sausages,  but I am not 
finding documentation of fermented pickles such as sauerkraut or cucumbers nor 
brined cheeses.

What obvious place am I not looking ?

Olwen Bucklond

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 11:56:14 EDT
From: Devra at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re Pickling
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

'The whole Body of Cookery Dissected' by William Rabisha (1661) has just 
become available via Prospect Books at $45.  The entire first chapter is pickling recipes.

     Devra (beginning to get Pennsic frenzies)

Devra Langsam
www.poisonpenpress.com

Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2005 14:31:14 -0400
From: Barbara Benson <voxeight at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fermented/Pickled Food
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

> In honor of Roguszys I'm collecting pre 1600 recipes for fermented and
> pickled food. Any and all contributions would be appreciated.  My intent is
> to compile them, prepare representitive examples and do a display 
> entry at a winter A/S in Trimaris.

I too have been recently pondering pickles and contemplating an A&S
thereof. Pickling is one of those things that have always resided in
my mind as an "Of course" they did it. But on thinking on it I can
bring to mind very few specific instructions on how to go about it.
Now, it is quite amazing what new things can jump out at you when
re-reading (for the bajillionth time) a familiar text with a different
goal in mind. I have not yet began said rereading process, but I will
include below the items that I have, to date, played with in this
area. They all hover around the 1600 date, give or take a decade or
so. (Beginning with the most iffy of provenance - Mme. Fettiplace)

I look forward to seeing what others come up with!

Glad Tidings,
Serena da Riva

To Pickle Mushrooms
Lady Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book, 16th century.
Take your Buttons, clean ym with a sponge & put ym in cold water as
you clean ym, then put ym dry in a stewpan & shake a handful of salt
over ym, yn stew ym in their own liquor till they are a little tender;
then strain ym from ye liquor & put ym upon a cloath to dry till they
are quite cold. Make your Pickle before you do your mushrooms, yt may
be quite cold before you put ym in. The Pickle must be made with
White-Wine, White-Pepper, quarter's Nutmeg, a Blade of Mace & a Race
of ginger.
	
16 oz Mushrooms
1 T Kosher Salt
1 1/4 C White Wine
1 t White Pepper
1/4 Nutmeg
1 t Mace
2 thumbnail sized pieces of Fresh Ginger
Wash and dry mushrooms, place in large bowl and toss with salt. Place
into large saucepan and add just enough water to avoid scorching. Cook
covered until tender, stirring occasionally. When done strain out of
juices and allow to cool completely. Combine remaining ingredients in
a saucepan and bring to a low boil. Allow to simmer awhile, then
remove from heat. Allow to cool completely. Place cool mushrooms into
jar and pour cool pickle over them. Keep in refrigerator; it will take
at least a week to meld the flavors. After a week, fish out the ginger
or it will become overpowering.

Preserved Artichokes
> From Eleanor Fettiplace's Receipt Book

TO KEEP HARTICHOCKS ALL THE YEARE first take a gallon of faire water,
& another of the strongest veriuce, & a good handfull of salt, put
them together on the fire & boile them, & scum them cleane, take half
an handfull of fennel, & half a handfull of hyssope cleane washed, &
put into the brine, then throw in the artichocks & scald them, & pluck
them out againe, then let the artichocks & the brine bee throwe cold
before you put them up, then put the bottoms downards & the herbs on
the top, & let brine always cover them. Even so I use the Cowcumbers.
		
8 oz Artichoke Hearts
1 C Water
1 C Verjuice
1 t Fennel Seeds
1 t Dried Hyssop
1/2 T Kosher Salt
		
Combine water, verjuice and salt in a non reactive saucepan. Bring to
boil and add herbs. Boil slightly and add artichokes. Boil for three
minutes and then remove from fire. Remove artichokes from brine and
allow both to cool. After cool place artichokes in a jar and put a
pinch of both herbs on top. Add brine until full and cap. Refrigerate
just to be safe.

Pickled Cowcumbers
Delights for Ladies by Sir Hugh Platt, 1609.
To preserve cowcumbers all the yeere: Take a gallon of faire water and
a pottle of verjuice, and a pint of bay salt, and a handful of greene
fennel or Dill; boile it a little, and when it is cold put it into a
barrel, and then put your cowcumbers into that pickle, and you shall
keep all the yeere.
	
1 Gal Water
4 pints Verjuice
2 C Kosher Salt
1 big handfull chopped Dill
Wash and slice cucumbers. Make pickle and allow to cool completely.
Place cucumbers into a jar and pour in liquid. Keep refrigerated.

Cucummern
Ein New Kochbuch. Marx Rumpolt. 1581, Transcribed by Dr. Thomas
Gloning; Translated by Gwen Catrin von Berlin.

20. Schel die Murcken/ vnd schneidt sie breit vnnd duenn/ mach sie an
mit Oel/ Pfeffer vnd Saltz. Seind sie aber eyngesaltzen/ so seind sie
auch nit boeß/ seind besser als roh/ denn man kans eynsaltzen mit
Fenchel vnd mit Kuemel/ daß man sie vber ein Jar kan behalten. Vnnd am
Rheinstrom nennet man es Cucummern.
20. Peel the Cucumbers/ and cut them broad and thin/ season them with
oil/ pepper and salt. But if they are salt-preserved/ they are also
not bad/ are better than raw/ because one can salt it with Fennel and
with caraway/ that both can be kept over one year. And near the
Rhine-stream one calls it Cucummern.
	
Cucumbers to fill jar
4 T Canning Salt
3 t Fennel Seeds
3 t Caraway Seeds
Oil
Black Pepper
Clean cucumbers. Mix salt, fennel, and caraway with water. Place
cucumbers in glass canning jar and pour brine over. Weight to ensure
that all cucumbers stay below the water. Allow to sit unsealed,
covered with a towel, in a "room temperature" location for two to
three days. Check to see if a scum forms on the top of the water. If
if does, remove with a paper towel or spoon. After they have reached
desired sourness remove weight and seal jar. Keep in the refrigerator
for several weeks before serving, shaking jar occasionally to
distribute seasoning.

On day of service, peel and thinly slice the cucumbers. Dress lightly
with olive oil and a small amount of pepper. Place in a sealed
container and hold in refrigerator for several hours before service.

To Make Pickled Cabbage
Ein Kochbuch aus dem Archiv des Deutschen Ordens, 15th Century.
Transcribed by Dr. Thomas Gloning; Translated by Volker Bach.

31. Wilthu machenn eynngemacht Crautt: so seudt weysse Heuptt und ein
zweythell Sennffs und das dritthell Hoengs und die selbing mach
undereinander mitt Wein und thu darein Koemel und einß des genug und
leg dan des gesotten Kraut darein und [[nnd_Ed.]] gibe es kalt. also
magst auch priesen die Seudt mitt Würczenn und gyb sy hin.
31. If you want to make pickled cabbage Boil white cabbage heads, take
two parts mustard and one part honey, mix them with wine and add
caraway /einß/ (?) it enough, put the boiled cabbage into it and serve
it cold. You can also season the broth and serve it.
		
1 Head Cabbage
1/2 C Yellow Mustard Seeds
1/4 C Wildflower Honey
1 1/8 C Trollinger Wine
1 1/2 T Ground Caraway
		
Cut head of cabbage in quarters and remove core, then cut each quarter
in half. Bring a pot of water to boil and then add cabbage. Boil for
ten minutes, drain well. Measure mustard seeds into a coffee grinder
and process until as fine as desired. Transfer mustard to a food
processor and add honey and caraway. Process mixture until combined
and then add Wine. Combine cabbage and mustard and place in sealed
container. Allow to sit and serve cold. (And frankly, I do not advise
eating it in the first place - unless you have a large number of fans
of Kim - Chee type foods)

Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2005 17:37:09 EDT
From: Devra at aol.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: pickles
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

There are a lot of preserving recipes in Rabisha's the Whole Body of
Cookery, and he's right around 1600.

Devra Langsam
www.poisonpenpress.com

Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 00:46:50 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] another question... marinated beets
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Using Rumpolt's marinated beets recipe, should it be ok to do these a
week ahead of time? (Recipe below)

     3. Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/
Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/ sonderlich wenn die Ruben geschnitten/
gesotten mit halb Wein und halb Essig

         Pickled Beets - 3. Red beets preserved with small cut
horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/ especially if the
beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar.
--  
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net  

Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 23:08:21 +0200
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] another question... marinated beets
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net, Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

Am Samstag, 11. Juni 2005 06:46 schrieb Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne 
Heise:
> Using Rumpolt's marinated beets recipe, should it be ok to do these a
> week ahead of time? (Recipe below)
>
>     3. Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/
> Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/ sonderlich wenn die Ruben geschnitten/
> gesotten mit halb Wein und halb Essig
>
>         Pickled Beets - 3. Red beets preserved with small cut
> horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/ especially if the
> beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar.

Depends how thin you slice them. I made it last year and found it a bit
disappointing on first trying, though it improved with age.

From my experience: don't overdo the anise, and add salt. It really needs
salt. I would also recommend a strong vinegar, especially if you're only
resting it for a week.

Giano

Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:22:41 -0700
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] another question... marinated beets
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

Jadwiga wrote:
> Using Rumpolt's marinated beets recipe, should it be ok to do these a
> week ahead of time? (Recipe below)
>
>     3. Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/
> Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/ sonderlich wenn die Ruben geschnitten/
> gesotten mit halb Wein und halb Essig
>
>         Pickled Beets - 3. Red beets preserved with small cut
> horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/ especially if the
> beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar.

I'd think so, as long as they are kept covered and cold. I made them
about 3 or 4 days before the feast at which i served them. Since the
horseradish mellows over time, you might want to add some more on the
day of serving, depending how zingy you like them.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 20:02:02 -0400
From: Elaine Koogler <ekoogler1 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] A Challenge to Find a Dish
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

iasmin at comcast.net wrote:

> Every year, my laurel's SCA family hosts a dinner around  
> Thanksgiving time for all of her dependents and those of her  
> husband. The themes have varied from year to year, with topics  
> ranging far and wide from different countries to actual feast test  
> runs. This year's theme is a little different and I thought people  
> might find it an interesting challenge; I'd like to see what they  
> come up with.
>
> For an SCA "family" potluck, find a dish using these guidelines:
>
> -- The name of the dish must start with the first initial of your  
> first name or the first initial of your last name. You cannot use  
> your middle name if you have one.
>
> -- You must use your SCA name.
>
> -- You must make enough of this dish to feed 20 people.
>
> What's your dish?
>
> Iasmin de Cordoba, kicked out of the nest a few years back OL

OK....my SCA name is Minowara Kiritsubo...and, in true Japanese fashion,
my first name is the second in the order, and my "last name" is the
first. Going with "M" is no real problem...I did Mirausto at a feast a
year or so back:

*37. **Catalan-Style Mirausto** (**/The Neapolitan Recipe Collection/
(/Cuoco Napoletano)/*/ /by Terence Scully

<snip. See birds-recipes-msg – Stefan>

******]
Now, for Kiri, there's a problem...there are not that many recipes
around that start with "K"...but here goes. I used this one in an
oriental feast I cooked several years back...while I can't prove it's
period, I've run across similar things as we've been working on the
Ryori Monogotari...and I've found references to pickles of various sorts
from period Japan:

*Quick Turnip Pickles//*

*/Kabu no Sokuseki-zuke/*

*/ /*Also appropriate for cucumbers, sliced in thin wafers. Peel and
seed large cucumbers.

12 medium turnips
5 heaping tbsp salt
4-inch piece giant /konbu/
1-inch square /yuzu /citron or lemon peel
Cut off greens from turnips and reserve. Wash turnips, peel, then cut
into very fine julienne strips. Wash greens, dry, then chop finely.

Put turnip strips with finely chopped greens into a bowl and sprinkle
with salt. Knead with your hands and mix thoroughly to draw water out of
vegetable. In less than a minutes, a fair amount of liquid will be
produced. Discard liquid.

Add dry /konbu/ and citron or lemon rind. Let stand, lidded and with a
light weight, 1 hour at room temperature.

To serve: pick out a portion from the bowl and shake off liquid. Arrange
in a mound and season with a few drops of soy sauce, if desired.

Tsuji Shizuo (/Japanese Cooking: A Simple Art)/, Tokyo: Kodansha
International, 1980. p. 323-24.

Kiri

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 16:16:31 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] beet-pickled eggs
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

Here's a recipe for pickled beets anyway.
Johnnae

       Pickled beets

(Ein New Kochbuch, Marxen Rumpolt, 1581) */3. Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit
klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/ Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/
sonderlich wenn die Ruben geschnitten/ gesotten mit halb Wein und halb
Essig /* /Pickled Beets - 3. Red beets preserved with small cut
horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/ especially if the
beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar./

/[Translation by Gwen Catrin von Berlin (Martina Grasse)]/

20 lbs beets
6 heaping tbsp prepared horseradish (because I couldn't get fresh)
1/2 gal vinegar
1/2 gal red wine
3 tsp aniseed
6 tbsp coriander
5 tbsp caraway

Cook and peel beets, slice and quarter. put into jars and cover with
half vinegar/half wine. Add horseradish, aniseed, coriander and caraway.
Allow to marinate 24 hours or more.

Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 19:05:49 -0800 (PST)
From: "Cat ." <tgrcat2001 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 10, Issue 37
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

> Here's a recipe for pickled beets anyway.
> Johnnae
>
>       Pickled beets
>
> (Ein New Kochbuch, Marxen Rumpolt, 1581) */3. Rote Ruben eyngemacht mit
> klein geschnittenen Merrettich/ Aniss/ Coriander/ und ein wenig Kuemel/
> sonderlich wenn die Ruben geschnitten/ gesotten mit halb Wein und halb
> Essig /* /Pickled Beets - 3. Red beets preserved with small cut
> horseradish/ anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/ especially if the
> beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar./
>
> /[Translation by Gwen Catrin von Berlin (Martina
> Grasse)]/

To give credit where it is due, while the
transcription and translation are mine I think that
interpretation is actually Urtatims (or Anahita at
that time) I have never made it with 'prepared
horseradish.'  I prefer matchsticks of fresh real
horseradish root in amongst the whole or sliced beets,
though they can be a bit of a surprise when folks bite
them thinking they are more beet bits (the white root
picks up beet color quite well.)
As an aside, fresh beets are great, but, at least
locally, canned are usually lower priced, and for a
feast much less labor intensive for very similar
quality after a week in the pickle.

My interpretation is webbed at:
http://clem.mscd.edu/~grasse/GK_ASsp99_beet.htm

In Service
Gwen Cat
who looked at the date and just realized how LONG she
has been at this ~.~

Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 13:15:46 -0800
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] beet-pickled eggs
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Gwen Cat wrote:
> To give credit where it is due, while the
> transcription and translation are mine I think that
> interpretation is actually Urtatims (or Anahita at
> that time) I have never made it with 'prepared
> horseradish.'(SNIP)

Must be someone else's version, 'cuz it isn't mine. Below is my
version. It's pretty much Gwen Cat's recipe doubled, but using fresh
beets, less horseradish, and with the addition of salt.

To tell the truth, i'd have liked more horseradish, but i had a
horseradish sauce elsewhere in the feast and i didn't want to subject
the diners to too much :-)

Marinated Beets with horseradish
Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch

3. Rote Ruben:
Red beets preserved with small cut horseradish/
anise/ coriander/ and a little caraway/
special if the beets are cut/ marinated in half wine and half vinegar.

makes about 1 gallon

10 large red beets, cut into medium-small chunks
2 cup red wine
2 cup red wine vinegar (white or cider will do)
1-1/2 foot long fresh horseradish root, peeled and cut into slivers
1-1/2 TB salt
1 tsp whole anise seed
1 tsp whole caraway seed
2 tsp whole coriander seed

1. Cut up beets.
2. Combine all ingredients except beets in a pot. Bring to a boil,
then lower heat and simmer 5 minutes.
3. Add the beets and heat through.4. Place in jar or crock and let
mellow for at least 24 hours, up to two weeks in a cool place.
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 00:03:04 -0400
From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise <jenne at fiedlerfamily.net>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] help with a preserving recipe
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

This one is period-- Thomas Hyll, The Gardener's Labyrinth

"And to preserve the Rape or Turnup roots to serve the winter and Lent
time, the owner may work after this manner, by washing first the roots,
and these raw, bestow in ranks one upon another, and in each rank strew
salt, fennel seeds and sauerie [savory], or onely cover them with salt,
close couched, and on such wise letting these remain for eight days,
powre so much fair water on them as will cover them, which done, let the
vessel stand in some vault, or seller, to serve for the above said
times, or longer if the owner will, if so be he fill up the vessell,
when these lie bare and drie." p. 171.

Now, here's the question: when I do this, do I use whole or sliced
turnips? I'd think whole ones. Also, should I top and tail them, or
leave them with the stub end of the greens and the root end?

Yes, I'm getting ready for my Pennsic class. :)
--  
-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne at fiedlerfamily.net  

Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:03:48 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] help with a preserving recipe
To: jenne at fiedlerfamily.net,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Jul 9, 2007, at 12:03 AM, Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise wrote:

> This one is period-- Thomas Hyll, The Gardener's Labyrinth
>
> "And to preserve the Rape or Turnup roots to serve the winter and Lent
> time, the owner may work after this manner, by washing first the roots,
> and these raw, bestow in ranks one upon another, and in each rank strew
> salt, fennel seeds and sauerie [savory], or onely cover them with salt,
> close couched, and on such wise letting these remain for eight days,
> powre so much fair water on them as will cover them, which done, let the
> vessel stand in some vault, or seller, to serve for the above said
> times, or longer if the owner will, if so be he fill up the vessell,
> when these lie bare and drie." p. 171.
>
> Now, here's the question: when I do this, do I use whole or sliced
> turnips? I'd think whole ones. Also, should I top and tail them, or
> leave them with the stub end of the greens and the root end?

Probably whole, with stubs of both the stem and root ends, is the way
to go (consults jar of half-sours in the fridge). I'm not sure if the
theory involves excessive moisture loss, or minimizing entry points
for undesirable microbes, but unless they're really large, I suspect
this rule would apply.

Umm... you may find that some of the rules for things like kraut
apply... you may want to make sure you've got a well-ventilated place
to work and store them...

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 08:57:30 -0700
From: Dragon <dragon at crimson-dragon.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Pickles (was Re:  Weird food)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

David Walddon wrote:
Did you make the pickled figs?
They sound great.
If so can you share the recipe.
---------------- End original message. ---------------------

Yup, sure did, and yes, I can share the recipe too.

1 lb. of dried figs
1 cup water
1 cup cider vinegar
1/3 cup salt
1 cinnamon stick
1 tsp. whole cloves
1 tsp. whole coriander seed
1 tbsp. dried bitter orange peel

In a dry pan, toast the spices until they are very fragrant then turn 
out onto a cool plate or pan. Do not burn the spices, the spices are 
left whole, do not grind them.

Put the water, vinegar, salt and the whole spices in a saucepan and 
bring to a boil then reduce to a simmer. Put the figs in the brine 
and let simmer for about 10 minutes. Turn off the heat, cover and let 
cool. Refrigerate and serve.

Dragon

Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:41:40 -0700
From: Lilinah <lilinah at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] period pickles and preserves
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

> The recipe for Na'an Mukhallal in "In
> a Caliph's Kitchen"

That's Na'na', which is Arabic for mint.

> which consists of period recipes edited/translated by
> David Waine might be useful.

Alas, "In a Caliph's Kitchen" is long out of print and very difficult 
to locate. However, this recipe is from al-Baghdadi' book of recipes 
- and although not credited, all the al-Baghdadi recipes in the book 
by David Waines appear to be taken directly from A.J. Arberry's 
groundbreaking 1937 translation.

> It is a vinegar mint sauce which also appears
> to have been used to pickle garlic?

As this recipe is in al-Baghdadi's cookbook, one can refer to (1) 
A.J. Arberry's original ground breaking but problematic version from 
the 1930s, (2) the version in "Medieval Arab Cookery" annotated by 
Charles Perry, or (3) Charles Perry's completely new translation.

There are also recipes for pickled cucumbers, pickled turnips, 
pickled raisins, etc. in the Arabic language cookbooks.

Some of these recipes first salt the vegetables, let them stand for 
an allotted period of time, then rinse them and put them in vinegar.

I've also used a mix of brine and vinegar to pickle cucumbers with 
mint - period Arabic language recipes suggest other possible herbs as 
well, such as tarragon.

There are more recipes for pickled things in European cookbooks.

I've made pickled mushrooms by combining these two recipes:

Lady Elinor Fettiplace's Receipt Book, 16th century
To Pickle Mushrooms. Take your Buttons, clean ym with a sponge & put 
ym in cold water as you clean ym, then put ym dry in a stewpan & 
shake a handful of salt over ym, yn stew ym in their own liquor till 
they are a little tender; then strain ym from ye liquor & put ym upon 
a cloath to dry till they are quite cold. Make your Pickle before you 
do your mushrooms, yt may be quite cold before you put ym in. The 
Pickle must be made with White-Wine, White-Pepper, quarter's Nutmeg, 
a Blade of Mace & a Race of ginger.

Sir Kenelme Digbie's The Closet Opened, 17th century
Pickled Champignons. Cut the great ones into halves or quarters, 
seeing carefully there be no worms in them; and peel off their upper 
skin on the tips: the little ones, peel whole. As you peel them, 
throw them into a basin of fair-water, which preserves them white.

      Then put them into a pipkin or possnet of Copper (no Iron) and 
put a very little water to them, and a large proportion of Salt. If 
you have a pottle of Mushrooms, you may put to them ten or twelve 
spoonfuls of water, and two or three of Salt. Boil them with a pretty 
quick-fire, and scum them well all the while, taking away a great 
deal of foulness, that will rise. They will shrink into a very little 
room. When they are sufficiently parboiled to be tender, and well 
cleansed of their scum, (which will be in about a quarter of an 
hour,) take them out, and put them into a Colander, that all the 
moisture may drain from them.

      In the mean time make your pickle thus: Take a quart of pure 
sharp white Wine Vinegar (elder-Vinegar is best) put two or three 
spoonfuls of whole Pepper to it, twenty or thirty Cloves, one Nutmeg 
quartered, two or three flakes of Mace, three Bay-leaves; (some like 
Lemon-Thyme and Rosemary; but then it must be a very little of each) 
boil all these together, till the Vinegar be well impregnated with 
the Ingredients, which will be in about half an hour. Then take it 
from the fire, and let it cool.

      When the pickle is quite cold, and the Mushrooms also quite 
cold, and drained from all moisture: put them into the Liquor (with 
all the Ingredients in it) which you must be sure, be enough to cover 
them. In ten or twelve days, they will have taken into them the full 
taste of the pickle, and will keep very good half a year. If you have 
much supernatant Liquor, you may parboil more Mushrooms the next day, 
and put them to the first. If you have not gathered at once enough 
for a dressing, you may keep them all night in water to preserve them 
white, and gather more the next day, to joyn to them.

There's also this in Marx Rumpolt, Ein New Kochbuch, 1581
Rote Ruben [Red Roots]:
Red beets preserved with finely cut horseradish, anise, coriander, 
and a little caraway, special if the beets are marinated in half wine 
and half vinegar.

Ein Buch von Guter Spise, mid-14th C.
48. Ein condimentlin
A condiment. Flavor with caraway seeds and anise, with pepper and 
with vinegar and with honey. And make it gold with saffron. And add 
thereto mustard. In this condiment you may make sulze (pickled or 
marinated) parsley, and small preserved fruit and vegetables, or 
beets, which(ever) you want.

I used two variations to prepare cucumbers and cabbage. I altered the 
seasonings so they wouldn't taste the same.
-- For the cucumbers: whole caraway seeds, whole fennel seeds, whole 
dill seed, whole peppercorns, ground mustard seeds, salt, saffron, 
honey, white wine vinegar
-- For the cabbage: whole caraway seeds, whole anise, whole 
peppercorns, salt, honey, red wine vinegar

For more fun and games with pickles:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/pickled-foods-msg.html

And, of course, there's "Compost" which is a relish rather like 
"chutney" (for some definition of chutney - but not the mango kind 
:-) It contains pears, carrots, turnips, home-made mustard, lots of 
spices, vinegar, etc. When made right it's really yummy.
See Stefan's Florilegium again:
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/compost-msg.html
-- 
Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
the persona formerly known as Anahita

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:08:50 -0400
From: tudorpot at gmail.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

I found this intriguing message- alas no recipe, I haven't access to  
Curye. any hints on how I can find Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood?

Freda

<<< Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood wrote about a sweet pickle from
Curye on Inglish, p. 120-121

This is a wonderful sweet pickle.  It is the one Cossette and I used  
in the last feast we did.  It was the Janeltis feast held in the honor of the
Dowager Princess of An Tir at the An Tir Kingdom Kingdom A&S Championship.

We put up about 24 jars of it.  Because this was a visual as well as yummy
feast we did the Pears and green and red cabbage separately so that we
would have different colors on the plate and garnished it with fresh
violets and pansies (edible). It was a pickling extravaganza, and the
kitchen was quite sticky afterward!

We did it the weekend before the feast, it was part of the first course
which was all cold as we had the kitchen for a very limited time.

Maeve >>>

Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:42:42 -0400
From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius1 at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 8, 2008, at 5:08 PM, tudorpot at gmail.com wrote:

<<< I found this intriguing message- alas no recipe, I haven't access to  
Curye. any hints on how I can find Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood?

Freda >>>

You might try going to http://www.florilegium.org and searching for  
"compost". I'll bet the recipe, with lots of commentary, is in there.  
I believe it's from The Forme of Cury". I believe there is also at  
least one edition of The Forme of Cury webbed someplace.

Adamantius

Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:51:28 -0400
From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] (no subject)
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

On Sep 8, 2008, at 5:08 PM, tudorpot at gmail.com wrote:
<<< I found this intriguing message- alas no recipe, I haven't access to
Curye. any hints on how I can find Master Ian Damebrigge of Wychwood?

Freda >>>

I'm not Master Ian Damebrigge, nor do I play him on TV...but here is my
redaction, along with the original recipe.  I served it several years back
at a Coronation:

103.  Compost.  *Take rote of persel, of pasternak, of rafens, scrape hem
and waische hem clene.  Take rapes and caboches, ypared and icorue.  Take an
erthen panne with clene water & set it on the fire; cast alle thise
therinne.  Whan they buth boiled cast thereto peeres, & perboile hem wel.  Take
all thise thynges up and lat it kele on a faire cloth.  Do thereto salt;
whan it is colde, do hit in a vessel; take vyneger & powdour & safroun & &
do thereto, & lat alle thise thynges lye therein al nyght, other al day.  Take
wyne greke and hony, clarified togider; take lumbarde mustard & raisouns
coraunce, al hoole, & trynde powdour of  canel, powdour douce & aneys hole,
& fenell seed.  Take alle thise thynges & cast togyder in a pot of erthe, &
take thereof whan thou wilt & serue forthe.

103.  *Compost*.  Take parsley root, parsnips, radish, scrape them and wash
them clean.  Take turnips and cabbages, pared and cleaned.  Take an pottery
pan with clean water and set it on the fire.  Put all of these in the pot. .
When they have boiled, add pears and parboil them well.  Take all these
things up and let it cool on a fair cloth.  Add salt; when it is cold, put
it in a vessel; take vinegar and poudre and saffron and add it, and let all
these things lie therein all night or all day.  Take Greek wine (sweet) and
honey, clarified together; take Lumbard mustard and currents all whole, and
grind cinnamon, poudre douce and anise whole and fennel seed.  Take all
these things and cast together in an earthen pot and take thereof when you
will and serve it forth. (Forme of Cury from *Curye on Inglysch*)

Redaction:  (Makes about 4 cups)

6 radishes                             4 T. Honey
4 cabbage leaves                       1/2 tsp. Cinnamon
1 parsnip                              1 tsp. fresh ginger root, diced finely
2 turnips                                          1/4 tsp. mace
1 pear                                             1/4 tsp. cloves
1 tsp. Salt                                        1/2 tsp. fennel seed
1 1/2 C. red wine vinegar                          1/2 cup currants
1/2 tsp. Pepper                                    1 Tbsp. Lumbard mustard
1 pinch saffron                                    1/2 tsp whole anise seed
1 1/2 C. Sweet wine (Marsala)

1.  Parboil root vegetables, cabbage in water until almost tender

2. Add to vegetables and continue parboiling until tender.  Drain and cool.

3.  Mix vinegar, pepper and saffron and pour over veggies.

4. Marinate in a cool place overnight.  Then drain liquid from mixture

5. Heat wine and honey together until clarified.

6. Add to wine/honey mixture, mix thoroughly, then cool.

7. Gently mix with vegetable/fruit mixture.  Store, refrigerated, then serve
chilled.

Notes:

1.  Recipe calls for "wyne greke" or Greek Wine, which the glossary in *Curye
on Inglysch *defines as "?a sweet type of wine which actually came from
Italy?"  Marsala seemed to fit this description nicely.

2.  I omitted the parsley root, as it was unavailable.

3.  I define "poudre" here to mean pepper.

4.  The "?lumbarde mustard?" is taken from a recipe further on in *Forme of
Cury*, which I have redacted below.

5.  I have found numerous descriptions of "powdour douce" which vary widely,
often containing sugar, cinnamon, ginger, mace and cloves.  I have omitted
the sugar as I feel it is sweet enough with the honey and sweet wine.  I
have also used fresh ginger, as have the authors of *Early French
Cooking *(Terence
Scully) and *To the King's Taste *(Lorna J. Sass) in other recipes which
called for powdour douce.  I believe that it adds more to the sweet-sour
contrast that was so popular in this period.
And this is the recipe for the Lumbard Mustard:

*150.  Lumbard Mustard.  *Take mustard seed and waisshe it, & drye it in an
ovene.  Grynde it drye; sarse it thurgh a sarse.  Clarifie hony with wyne &
vyneger, & stere it wel togedre and make it thikke ynowgh; and whan though
wilt spende thereof make it tnynne with wyne.

*150*.  *Lumbard Mustard*.  Take mustard seed and wash it and dry it in an
oven.  Grind it dry, sieve it through a sieve.  Clarify honey with wine and
vinegar, and stir it well together and make it thick enough, and when you
will use it, thin it with wine. (Forme of Cury from *Curye on Inglysch*)

Redaction:  (makes about  2 1/2  cups)

2 Cups Mustard Seed.                                      
1 1/4 Cups Red wine Vinegar
1 1/4 Cups Burgundy Wine
3/4 Cups Honey

1. Toast in the oven, then grind it with a little of the vinegar

2. Heat the honey with the wine and vinegar until it is clear.

3.  Mix ground mustard seeds and honey/wine/vinegar mixture.  Allow to age.

Notes:
1.  I used Burgundy wine and Red Wine Vinegar as they are compatible with
each other, and also enhance the sweet/sour contrast.  Also, most recipes in
this collection seem to specify when they want a sweet wine rather than a
dry one.  This one makes no such specification

Kiri

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 17:27:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Daniel And elizabeth phelps  <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickling

<<< what container would pickling have been done in?  and for a period recipe, should I use kirbys, or regular?  I figure it's not the egyptian hairy (cucumis chate).  Might it be the "burpless" English ones I see sometimes in stores?
-- 
Ian of Oertha >>>

My guess would be a ceramic/stone ware crock with a close fitting lid the outer rim of which would extend beyond the barrel of the crock?  The sort of thing that Korean farmers make kimchi in come to mind.

Daniel 

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 17:58:50 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickling

<<< what container would pickling have been done in?  and for a period recipe, should I use kirbys, or regular?  I figure it's not the egyptian hairy (cucumis chate).  Might it be the "burpless" English ones I see sometimes in stores?
-- 
Ian of Oertha >>>

Depending on how long you planned to store them, a stoneware crock or a 
barrel would be the appropriate choices.

As for the types of cucumbers, check the Florilegium 
http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-VEGETABLES/Cucumbers-Hst-art.html and 
for drawings check out Fuchs Herbal pg 401 at 
http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical-old/fuchs/400-1.gif for Cucumis 
sativus vulgaris (looks like a plain ole warty cucumber to me).

There are a few more things labelled Cucumis on the following pages but they 
are melons, New World squash, etc. with the exception of Cucumis sylvestris 
(wild cucumber) which may be your Egyptian hairy cucumber.

Bear

Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2012 16:15:41 -0700
From: David Walddon <david at vastrepast.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickling

There is quite a long and interesting entry in De Honesta regarding cucumbers and melons BK 1 #21 De Cucumeribus. Here is the start of it (Milham's translation except for the parenthesis)  - "Pliny avers (asserts in the Latin Text) that cucumbers of excessive size are called melons. I must confess my error, that the delight I get from eating a melon led me astray, for I not only place them above cucumbers but any other sort of food. There are three kids of cucumbers. The largest is blueish and less harmful, for it moves the bowes and seems especially helpful to the stomach in summer because of it's coolnes . . ." 
I goes on and covers almost a full page. 

Besides Fuchs Gerard and other herbals will be helpful and a quick search on LEME (mentioned today in a previous message) gives you tons of useful information. 

Eduardo

Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 08:45:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Donna Green <donnaegreen at yahoo.com>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] PIckling

Brighid's translation of Nola's recipe for pickled eggplants is very tasty ...

120. for Pickled Eggplants

You will take small eggplants, and make four quarters as if for casting them in a pot, and cast them in water and salt in something which should be of earthenware and not of iron; and let them be there until the third day; and empty out that water and cast in other water and salt, and let them be [in it] another three days; and empty out this water and cast them into clear water for another three days, and after the three days have passed, cast them to cook, covered with vine leaves; and cast into them a handful of cumin and cook them [until they are] well-cooked; and cast them in a basket, and cover them with cloth; and when all of the vapor has gone, put them on a board to chill; and grind cloves, and cinnamon, and ginger.  When it is very well-ground, cast it in, as they cast salt on the eggplants for the pot; and place them in a jar until it is full; and for a hundred eggplants, take two pounds of honey, and cast very strong vinegar on them, and give it a boil; and then set it to cool in something of earthenware, and not of iron; and when it is cold, cast it on top of the eggplants until they are covered; and put a lid on them, and keep them for a whole year.

Juana Isabella

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:21:44 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at att.net>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickling

Curiously about the wooden pickling vats, I actually remember seeing some 
around 1970 in Wiggins, MS.  There was an old, still operating pickle 
factory there.  The vats as I remember them were about five feet high and 
seven feet in diameter built like barrels.  They were old then and looked 
it.  The factory couldn't compete with newer facilities and went out of 
business later in the '70s.  The wood was salvaged from the factory and 
showed up on This Old House in the mid-80s.

Bear

Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 07:26:37 -0700
From: Susan Fox <selene at earthlink.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] pickling

On 7/16/2012 9:24 PM, Stefan li Rous wrote:
<<<Tannins are desirable in pickling. Keeps the pickles crisp, that's why
we put grape leaves in, right?

Selene Colfox >>>

We do?

Stefan
============
Well, I do.  I learned it from Sandor Ellix Katz in his excellent work, 
WILD FERMENTATION, the very primer on pickle and other fermented foods.  
He's rewritten it into a larger version but I have not read that fully yet.

Selene

From: Russ Myrick <russ.l.o.the.bushes at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles
Date: July 21, 2013 1:03:33 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

I just saw a thing about pickled/salted fruits from the Mid-East not to long ago on the LWN channel.

Soak fresh citrus fruit (Oranges, Limes, Lemons, Grapefruit, etc.) in fresh, or distilled water, over night.
Cut the fruit into cross sectioned halves, then cut each half, most of the way through, into quarters so that the halves can be laid out into 4 petal stars.
Pack a layer of fruit halves into the bottom of a 1 gallon, or 1/2 gallon, jar. They used clay ones in the beginning of the show, but used glass ones later on, so either should work just fine.
Cover the fruit and any empty spaces with pickling/canning salt.
Repeat until the jar is mostly full (No more than 1 inch below the neck of the jar), the closer to the neck the better.
Make sure the contents are tightly packed.
Cover the contents with at least 1/4 inch of olive oil. They did not completely fill the jars with olive oil.

Store in a cool, dry place for a minimum of 6 weeks before consuming/using the contents. This renders the fruit pulp/meat, producing the pickle juice. The rinds will settle to the bottom of the jar, and can be used for snacking, or for cooking later on. The pulp & juice mix is used for drinking, or flavoring.
Be sure to draw off the oil before consuming the juice or rinds.

According  to the show's hosts, this method was capable of storing the fruit for up to 10 years without spoilage.

From: Ségnat ingen Fháeláin <iron.age.celts at GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles
Date: July 21, 2013 2:49:04 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Lacto-fermentation which  uses no vinegar, just a salt and spice brine,   is
the oldest method of pickling cucumbers.     During this process,
lactic-acid bacteria preserve the food by converting carbohydrates present
to acetic acid which preserves the food and accounts for the sour taste.
These bacteria are  health-producing, somewhat akin to the live cultures in
yogurts and things like that.  They aren't toxic like I saw someone mention
earlier.   

If you are looking for a pickle juice comparable to modern pickle juice you
don't want to use lacto-fermentation even though that might be more period.
The liquid leftover from the lacto-fermentation process is not the same as
the pickle-juice from modern pickles which is full of vinegar.  It is more
similar to the whey solution leftover when making cheese and it has a lot of
lactic acid in it.  I don't think that it would have  the same health
benefits to the fighters and it certainly doesn’t taste the same.  

If you are looking for a source for documentation:  In 1577, Thomas Hyll
detailed a method of vinegar pickling  purslane using verjuice and salt in
The Gardeners Labyrinth.  I should note though that when  it came to
cucumbers and turnips, he still  recommended the salt and water
lacto-fermentation method.     In 1699, you see John Evelyn detailing a
vinegar process for pickling cucumbers  in Acetaria, that starts with Beer
Vinegar which is an interesting thing to make, also. 

Just as a note, the vinegar you buy in the store now is pretty routinely
distilled.  The raw vinegars like Braggs are the equivalent of what would
have been being used in the Middle Ages.  So you would want to use something
like this  or homemade verjuice or wine vinegar to achieve  period results.
I tried Evelyn's method using the modern vinegar once and it was not as
good. 

Ségnat

From: Gary and Virginia Phillips <Faramach at CHARTER.NET>
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles
Date: July 21, 2013 8:02:03 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

Your local food safety person chiming in, here:

The biggest risk with pickled foods comes from the anaerobic environment, not one in which oxygen gets in.
Clostridium botulinum, the bacterium that causes botulism, grows only in an anaerobic environment.

Pickling depends on acids (whether lactic acid from fermentation or added in the form of vinegar [acetic acid] or citric acid or the like) to inhibit the growth of C. botulinum in the anaerobic environment of the jar. As long as your final product pH is below 4.6 at equilibrium (the point at which the acids have thoroughly penetrated all of the foods and the pH is constant throughout the product), C. botulinum cannot grow.

Pickling solutions are usually added to the fruits or vegetables hot, to kill any vegetative cells of C. botulinum that might be present on the food. The bacterium is ubiquitous in our environment in soil and other places, and must be assumed to be on the product.

Once the vegetative cells have been killed, all that remains are the C. botulinum cells that have formed a protective spore coat. These are inert, but will come out of the spore coat and form vegetative cells, which produce the deadly toxin, if the environment allows. That environment would be warmer than 45 degrees F (5C), anaerobic (like in a jar) and low-acid (above 4.6 pH.)

Properly acidified foods will be shelf-stable. Acidified foods in hermetically sealed containers for service or sale to the general public must come from an approved processing plant.

I recommend that folks who want to make pickles for service to large groups of people depend on refrigeration for bacterial control, rather than acidification through fermentation or addition of food acids.

Botulism is a deadly disease. Incidence is rare, but it is among the most fatal of foodborne illnesses.

Let me know if folks need more details.

Mistress Gillian Warrender
mka Virginia Phillips, Environmental Public Health Specialist.

-----Original Message----- 
From: Ségnat ingen Fháeláin
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2013 11:05 AM
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu
Subject: Re: [CALONTIR] pickles

Fermentation is supposed to occur in an anaerobic environment.  When you use
a method that might allow oxygen into the mix,  other bacteria can occur
that are really unhealthy.     In the past they  used oil or sometimes made
a paste of flour and water and sealed the tops of the ferments that way,
too.  If you look in  lot of the old still room books there are instructions
on how to do it.

I know that this isn't a period practice and it might be frowned upon but
they make fermentation jars for such things now that use jars that seal
tightly and brewers airlocks.  While I am all about learning how they did
things in period,  a lot of people died  from exposure to foodborn bacteria
in the Middle Ages.    Maybe in this case, using the  more modern method to
make your period ingredient, would be prudent.    You could use all the same
ingredients and just put them in one of these jars.

I made jars that resemble the Pickl-it jars they sell online by getting
ahold of some of the fido canning jars and drilling 1/2 inch holes in the
lids and  putting a rubber grommet in the hole to insert the airlock into.

I have pickled key limes and lemons and they are amazing.  I am sure they
would last for a very long time, if we didn't like them so much.     I just
like to be safe.

Ségnat

From: Jerry Harder <geraldgoodwine at YAHOO.COM>
Subject: [CALONTIR] Pickles and food preserving
Date: July 25, 2013 3:56:26 AM CDT
To: CALONTIR at listserv.unl.edu

For those interested in pickles and other food preserving, I recommend getting a good modern book and reading it first.  The one our family uses is:
 Stocking Up III
The All New Edition of America's Classic Preserving Guide
by Carol Hupping and the staff of the Rodale Food Center    copy rite 1986
ISBN   0-87857-613-4

These books are updated from time to time with the intent to make food processing safer and the food better tasting and retain more of the nutrients.

The book I have often takes the time to tell the why of why one process should or should not be used.  Get the latest version you can.  As mentioned in  earlier post  botulism cells can't grow in environments with pH lower than 4.6.  Anything without these acid levels must be pressure canned.  Pressure canning allows for temperatures to be higher that 212 deg F. so that botulism spores can be killed.  Also these books have charts so that different foods are processed for different amounts of time and pressures depending on food density and can size so that essentially a piece of food in the center of the can gets hot enough at its center to be safe.  I have seen instances where home caned tomatoes (an acid fruit that doesn't necessarily need to be pressure canned ) that have been water-bath canned have gone bad.  This spoilage is usually obvious.  One just throws it away.  What is important is that food spoiled by botulism doesn't fizz or stink or taste bad and the toxins produced by it can kill you.  SO:  Get a good book with sound recipes and stick to it.  You can change up the spices, but don't muck with the proportions of vinegar and lemon juice as these are the sources of acid.   Also don't take a water bath canned tomato recipe and add a bunch of something like zucchini to it.  Tomatoes are an acid fruit and zucchini is not so half zucchini would cut the acid in half. You could however pressure can as if it were straight zucchini to error on the safe side.  Lemon juice or citric acid is often added to tomatoes in more modern books as some of the more modern tomato varieties are being bread for lower acid and are unsafe to water bath can without a little extra acid.

Now say your a brewer and accidentally made vinegar.  That's ok for flavoring fresh food but don't use it for canning because it's acid content may not be sufficient to work properly in preserving. Use store bought vinegar that is regulated to a specific strength.  Medieval recipes: cross reference with similar modern ones.  Make sure that the quantities of things that keep things safe are maintained. A pH meter might even be a good idea. If you ain't willing and haven't tested it on yourself first, don't test it on your friends!

For the brine cured (fermented) pickles the Euell Gibbons Dill crock given in the book uses 3/4 measure salt and 10 measures water and 1/4 cup  cider vinegar to a gallon.

Note the salt should be canning salt which does not contain iodide and is a specific grain size.  Sea salt may not contain iodide but is usually larger crystals and has a mixture of various salt types which may through a recipe off.  Use of tested recipes is important till you have a good understanding of what your doing and know how the process should go, taste and so forth.

It is my understanding that the salt prevents the growth of many organisms while providing a good environment for lactic acid producing bacteria to grow.  This in turn produces an acid environment that is unfavorable to botulism.  I don't know what effect the salt has if any, specifically on botulism.

So how about wine and beer.

Beer? can some of you all grainers refresh my memory on what wart wart  and mash pH is?
Mead (honey water mixes) can get has high as 4.2 or 4.3 but is usually lower and wine is usually 3.5 or lower. so no botulism there since pH is well below 4.6

<the end>