Title: SCA-courts-nc-msg
Subject: Comments and explanations about SCA Courts for newcomers.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: SCA, court, behavior, tradition, explain, award, announce

SCA-courts-nc-msg - 5/30/01

Comments and explanations about SCA Courts for newcomers. Behaviour. What to do if called up into court. How they differ from kingdom to kingdom.

NOTE: See also the files: courts-msg, 4-newcomers-msg, Getting-an-AoA-art, SCA-intro-art, courtesy-msg, How-to-Behave-art, coronets-msg, SCA-awards-msg.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT

On Mon, 7 May 2001 11:30:42 -0400, an orbiting mind-control laser
caused "Dana Tweedy" <tweedyd at cvn.net> to write:
>Y2k_knight <y2kstar at swbell.net> wrote:
>> I am still very new to many of the activities in the SCA.  As I do have
>> eventual goals, I do not wish my initial impression to be a poor one.
>>
>> Would someone please tell me what to expect at court (Baronial court)?
>> What's it about?  What happens?  Is it different in other Kingdoms (I'm
>> from AnTir)?  Is Baronial court different than a Kingdom court?
>>
>> Richard
>>
>Hello Richard:
>   Although I am not familiar with An Tirian courts,  This is how Eastern
>courts usually run.

Just to broaden your perspective, customs *will* differ from kingdom
to kingdom. This is generally known as "Interkingdom Anthropology" or
"Toto, I don't think we're in Calontir any more."

Here's an Ansteorran perspective:
>Everyone will be dressed up in their nicest clothing, and be gathered in the
>area where the court will take place.  

"Nicest clothes" are less likely when it's an outdoor camping event.

>The court herald will appear, usually
>at the back of the room, and announce "All Rise".  Everyone stands up.  The
>court will then process into the room and to the front of the room.  

I'd guess this sort of procession happens at less than half of the
Ansteorran courts. The rest of the time, the Crown will already be
seated at the front, probably going over last-minute details with the
Herald.

>When
>the Presiding Noblity (King&Queen, Prince&Princess, Baron&Baroness etc)
>passes, eveyone is expected to bow, curtsey, or show respect in some form.

If we're having a procession, showing respect as they pass *is*
expected.

>After the noble procession arrives on the dais, the court herald will begin
>the business of the court.  He (or she) will call the name of someone to
>appear before the court.  That person is expected to approach the Nobles,
>making sure he is not carrying weapons.  

<chuckle> This is one area where you may well see a lot of difference
in custom. In Ansteorra, people are neither required nor expected to
disarm before approaching the Thrones. 

>When a few steps before the royals,
>the gentle bows and kneels in front of the ruling couple.  

In Ansteorra, there are usually pillows in front of the thrones for
people to kneel upon. It's surprising how many people don't seem to
underatand that that's what they are there for and will carefully
kneel *in front of* the kneeling pillows, rather than on them.

>The Nobles may
>then say something about the person, and the Court Herald will announce what
>award the gentle is getting, and read the award scroll.  

It's also possible that the person has some business for the
court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the
day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the
person forward to thank them for their work on something *without*
necessarily giving them an award.

>The gentle will
>thank the nobles, and then back a few steps away, and return to his or her
>seat.  The herald will then lead a congratulation to the gentle who was just
>awarded.  

I think that bit is pretty universal.

>In the East, the formula is  " For Lord (or Lady) ******,  Vivat,
>Vivat, Vivat"  The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s.   

In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of
Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three.

>Then the next award
>or piece of business is announced by the Herald.  That goes on (sometimes ad
>infinitum) untill all business is conducted.   The herald will then announce
>the the court is ended, and the herald will lead the procession out of the
>room.

Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local
group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if
any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra.

>There is of course more to it, but that's the jist of it.  Attend a court or
>two, sit in the back and you should be able to get the hang of it. 

Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you
may well only hear half of what's going on... <G>

> If your
>name is called, just walk up, bow, and kneel and let the Herald read the
>announcement.  Thank the royalty, and return to your seat.  Nothing to it.

As others have pointed out, you are unlikely to be called up into
court at your first event, *unless* it's customary in your kingdom to
call all the first-timers up and formally welcome them to the SCA, or
unless you've done something exceptional. Most Crowns are used to
people being surprised or shy, so if you're a bit tongue-tied they are
unlikely to hold it against you.

        -Tivar Moondragon
                Ansteorra

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: djheydt at kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd.
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 00:51:26 GMT

Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com> wrote:
>Just to broaden your perspective, customs *will* differ from kingdom
>to kingdom. This is generally known as "Interkingdom Anthropology" or
>"Toto, I don't think we're in Calontir any more."
>
>Here's an Ansteorran perspective:

[points on which the West is not noticeably different snipped]

>>In the East, the formula is  " For Lord (or Lady) ******,  Vivat,
>>Vivat, Vivat"  The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s.   
>
>In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of
>Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three.

In the West the Herald says "Hip, hip!" and the populace answers
"Hurrah" or "Huzzah," and this is done thrice no matter who the
honored person is.

>Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local
>group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if
>any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra.

Closing court gets the following ritual, each line cried by the
Herald and repeated by the populace:

"Long Live the King!"  "Long Live the Queen!"  --whether they are
present or not.  Then "Long live" all the following royalty if
they are present, in this order:

Any visiting Kings or Queens
The Crown Prince and Crown Princess
any visiting Princes or Princesses
The Prince and Princess of the Mists     (these four, you 
The Prince and Princess of Cynagua        see, are always
The Prince and Princess of Oertha         done in chronological
The Prince and Princess of Lochac         order.)

finishing with "Long Live the Other Princes and Princesses of the
West, Hip hip!"  "Hurrah!" (repeated twice for a total of three
Hurrahs)  "You have the King's/Prince's leave to go about your
business."

Dorothea of Caer-Myrddin                         Dorothy J. Heydt
Mists/Mists/West                               Albany, California
PRO DEO ET REGE                               djheydt at kithrup.com
                 http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt

From: scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 01:33:47 GMT

On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT, moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and
Elisabeth Zakes) wrote:

[...]

>Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you
>may well only hear half of what's going on... <G>

That's for outdoor events.  If the event is indoors, you'll probably
*hear* most everything, but poor projection and lousy acoustics will
conspire to make well over half of it incomprehensible.  You can't
win.  <g>

[...]

Talan

From: Ester Mendes <celyn at drizzle.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) 
Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:47:29 -0700

Well, since I'm in An Tir and I'm a court junkie, I'll toss in my
observations

Most courts begin with the King and Queen processing up to the
thrones, followed by their retinue, visiting royalty, etc. The
spectators stand as the procession starts, and you should bow as the
King and Queen pass by. Once everyone is settled up front, the herald
will announce that court has begun, and will then say, "You have Their
Majesties' leave to be seated."  If there is no procession, the herald
will begin court by saying, "Draw nigh for the court of..."

The herald will then begin calling people up front for announcements
or awards.  You never come forward unless you personally, or the group
that you are with, are called by the herald (or Their Majesties).  If
someone has an announcement, the herald will say, "So-and-so has
business..."  If the herald says, "So-and-so, present yourself before
Their Majesties" you know that someone is about to get an award.

If you are called forward, you bow or curtsey when you reach the aisle
directly in front of Their Majesties. If you have any weapons, you
should remove them at this point.  If you are female, one of the
guards will escort you to the thrones.  You bow again when you're a
few feet away from the thrones (usually about where the first row of
seating is) and Their Majesties will acknowledge you by nodding,
smiling, or something similar.

If you have an announcement, you ask Their Majesties, "Your Majesties,
do I have your leave to address the populace?"  They say yes and then
you can turn to make your announcement.

If you are being given an award, Their Majesties will motion for you
to come closer to them.  At this point you will notice the really
pretty, heavily embroidered pillow that looks like the Royal Footrest.
It's not.  It's actually there for you to kneel on. :)  You then kneel
on the pillow and Their Majesties will take your hands while the
herald announces what you are being recognized for.  If you have any
physical problems that make it difficult you you to kneel, please tell
Their Majesties when you approach them so that they can accomodate
you.

When you've been given the award, or you are done with your
announcement, you bow to Their Majesties again and back up a little
bit.  If you're female, a guard will appear to escort you back to your
seat.  Otherwise, once you've backed up to the point where you made
your second bow, you can turn and walk back down the aisle to your
seat.  Somewhere in here, the herald will say (remember, this is
specific to An Tir) "Three cheers for...  Hip, hip..." and everyone
else will yell "Huzzah"  Everyone does this three times, and then they
clap as you return to your seat.

When everything is done, the herald will say something along the lines
of "Thus ends the court of..."  As the royalty process out, the herald
will call three cheers for Their Majesties and any other visiting
royalty.  As before, the herald yells, "Hip, hip" and everyone else
shouts "Huzzah!" in response.  Once everyone has left, the herald will
shout, "An Tir."  People respond by shouting back either "An Tir" or
"We stand together."  This is done three times, growing louder each
time.

After this, the herald says "Peace to Janeltis."  (Janeltis died
before I started playing in An Tir.  She was greatly loved and
admired, so much so, that the people of An Tir petitioned the Board of
Directors to grant her the special title of Dowager Princess.  For
more on who she was see: http://antir.sca.org/WhosWho/janeltis.html)
The heralds are now starting to say, "Peace to Janeltis and those
who have gone before."  People will then respond with "Peace to
Janeltis" or simply "Peace" in reverant tones.  Then the herald
annouces that court is over.

It is also the custom in An Tir to bow if (a) you pass by someone with
a crown (b) someone with a crown walks by you, or (c) you walk in
front of the thrones whether anyone is sitting in them or not.  I'll
mention that the latter is customary, but not required.  I personally
do not bow to an empty throne for religious reasons (it's too close to
bordering on idolatry for my tastes).

The social customs that apply to courts with Their Majesties, also
apply to Baronial courts.  The bowing is the same, the cheers
are the same.  Some people get flustered when called up front.  That's
ok and everyone understands.  As long as you're polite and reverent,
there's never any harm, and no foul.

Senhora Ester Mendes
(Kirsti Thomas)
celyn at drizzle.com

From: ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Date: 8 May 2001 18:59:05 GMT

Figured I'd add an Outlandish perspective to this discussion.  Anyway
else from our great kingdom, pls. feel free to correct any mistakes of
mine.

On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT,
Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn at bga.com> wrote: 
> >Everyone will be dressed up in their nicest clothing, and be gathered in the
> >area where the court will take place.  
> 
> "Nicest clothes" are less likely when it's an outdoor camping event.

Generally here in the Outlands people are wearing whatever garb they
were wearing to the event.  I have heard folks talk about changing
into court clothes a few times, though.

I'm working on a set of long garb in keeping with my persona specially
for court.  Bit of confusion in the references over whether it was
universally court wear or only for older folks, though.  Fun fun...

> >The court herald will appear, usually
> >at the back of the room, and announce "All Rise".  Everyone stands up.  The
> >court will then process into the room and to the front of the room.  
> 
> I'd guess this sort of procession happens at less than half of the
> Ansteorran courts. The rest of the time, the Crown will already be
> seated at the front, probably going over last-minute details with the
> Herald.

All the courts, Kingdom and Barony, that I've been to have featured
the ruler alrady in place.  Daresay that at some of the more important
courts there's a procession, though.

> <chuckle> This is one area where you may well see a lot of difference
> in custom. In Ansteorra, people are neither required nor expected to
> disarm before approaching the Thrones. 

I've heard different things around here.  I've not disarmed the few
times I have been called up and was armed--no-one's said anything
(slight a guarantee of correctness as it is).

> It's also possible that the person has some business for the
> court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the
> day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the
> person forward to thank them for their work on something *without*
> necessarily giving them an award.

Round here the _general_ process seems to be that the ruler awards
what he will, then business is carried out, then closing.  But that's
a pretty loose guide.

> >In the East, the formula is  " For Lord (or Lady) ******,  Vivat,
> >Vivat, Vivat"  The populace joins in on the "Vivat"s.   
> 
> In Ansteorra, an AoA or similar award will get one "vivat", a Grant of
> Arms will get two, and a Peerage will get three.

Ours tend to be three rounds of huzzahs.  But then, around here huzzah
tends to be used a lot, almost to the point of silliness.  But it's fun:-)

> Typically here the closing of court will include vivats for the local
> group and ruling Baron/Baroness, the Crown Prince and Princess (if
> any) and the King, Queen and Ansteorra.

We tend to do CP&P, K&Q with huzzahs, then the Outlands with a great
bellow of `Outlands!'
-- 
Robert Uhl <ruhl at 4dv.net>

From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 21:09:44 GMT

On Tue, 08 May 2001 01:33:47 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser
caused scott at math.csuohio.edu (Brian M. Scott) to write:
>On Mon, 07 May 2001 23:51:18 GMT, moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and
>Elisabeth Zakes) wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>>Of course depending on the acoustics, sitting in the back means you
>>may well only hear half of what's going on... <G>
>
>That's for outdoor events.  If the event is indoors, you'll probably
>*hear* most everything, but poor projection and lousy acoustics will
>conspire to make well over half of it incomprehensible.  You can't
>win.  <g>

Sure you can. Get there a bit early and sit up front. This isn't like
school; the King isn't going to ask you questions about chapter
fourteen, which you neglected to read last night, after all. <G> 

It's fairly common here for the heralds to call everyone to draw nigh
for court, and then for the Crown to ask folks to draw a little
"nigh-er" so they don't have to shout.

        -Tivar Moondragon
                Ansteorra

From: moondrgn at bga.com (Chris and Elisabeth Zakes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court)
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 21:52:29 GMT

On 8 May 2001 18:59:05 GMT, an orbiting mind-control laser caused
ruhl at latakia.dyndns.org (Robert A. Uhl) to write:
>Figured I'd add an Outlandish perspective to this discussion.  Anyway
>else from our great kingdom, pls. feel free to correct any mistakes of
>mine.
(snip)

>> It's also possible that the person has some business for the
>> court--presentation of a gift or announcement of the winners of the
>> day's competitions. It's also possible that the Crown has called the
>> person forward to thank them for their work on something *without*
>> necessarily giving them an award.
>
>Round here the _general_ process seems to be that the ruler awards
>what he will, then business is carried out, then closing.  But that's
>a pretty loose guide.

Interesting. Here it tends to be just the opposite. "Business" gets
done first. then awards (starting with the lowest-ranking ones and
working up to Grants and Peerages, if any, then closing.)

        -Tivar Moondragon
                Ansteorra

From: Ester Mendes <celyn at drizzle.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: IK Anthropology (was: First time at Court) 
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 15:45:30 -0700

Tivar wrote:
> Interesting. Here it tends to be just the opposite. "Business" gets
> done first. then awards (starting with the lowest-ranking ones and
> working up to Grants and Peerages, if any, then closing.)

In An Tir, the heralds try to mix things up so that business and
awards are scattered throughout court.  During major crown events,
where courts can last for 3 hours, it's common for the only awards
given out to be peerages, or the highest level awards for archery and
fencing.

Senhora Ester Mendes
(Kirsti Thomas)
celyn at drizzle.com

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	SCA-courts-nc-msg	Page  of