Title: p-sex-msg
Subject: thoughts on sex in period.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: medieval, thoughts, sex, period, opinions, manners, whoopee, illustrations, nude

p-sex-msg - 1/22/11

Period thoughts on sex and sexual practices.

NOTE: See also the files: birth-control-msg, aphrodisiacs-msg, perfumes-msg,
p-medicine-msg, CA13-msg, pregnancy-msg, prostitution-msg, p-customs-msg.

************************************************************************
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This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
************************************************************************

From: rschirme at digi.lonestar.org (Joe Schirmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Period porn -- I MODI
Date: 12 Mar 93 16:20:38 GMT
Organization: DSC Communications Corp, Plano, TX

ga_tewes at postoffice.utas.edu.au (Alex Tewes) writes:
> ae766 at yfn.ysu.edu (David Sanders) wrote:
>> Unto the perverted gentles here assembled,
>> Vajk sends greetings!
>> 
>> Several persons have commented on the overall quality of
>> CA #13, and have commented on the fact that much of the 
>> material is OOP.
>> 
>> For those looking for period porn, the search may be
>> frustrating, but the stuff IS available.
>
>The Oxford Book of Erotic Verse would be a good source for the more
>literary amongst us ( ie no pictures ;)  )
>
>Martin de Mont Blanc
>Shire of Ynys Fawr/Lochac/West

Another good source that I recently picked up from the books store is
"I MODI - The Sixteen Pleasures" by Lynne Lawner (Northwestern
University Press).  The sixteen pleasures are a series of sixteen
prints from the sixteenth century Italy deplicting positions of
intercourse, accompanied by a set of sixteen sonnents.  I haven't had
a chance to read very much of it yet, but it appears to be a very good
work with historical background and translators notes.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe Schirmer    rschirme at digi.lonestar.org   OR   digi!rschirme at uunet.uu.net
DSC Communications Corporation   Addr: MS 121, 1000 Coit Rd, Plano, TX 75075

From: sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Documenting Whoopee! (was Re: Squires and apprentices )
Date: 11 Oct 1993 14:29:03 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

Greetings.....
	At last--copious documentation for making whoopee!

	I have in front of me James Brundage's fine work _Law,Sex, and
Christian Soceity in Medieval Europe_ (Chicago, 1987).  Said work contains
several manuscript illustrations showing "the dirty deed".
	Plate 8 illustrates a nifty threesome (a man, his wife,
and a concubine).  Plate 13 shows actual copulation (though the couple
have only merely hiked up their clothes--but note the woman's
nifty gartered stockings!)  Plate 14 is fun--it shows several matrons
attempting to prove whether a man is impotent (he clearly is!)
Plate 19 is David and Bathsheba in bed.

	Of course....this all might be "artistic licence!"  ;-)

Cheers!
Nicolaa/susan
sclark at epas.utoronto.ca

From: odlin at reed.edu (Iain Odlin)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 12 Oct 1993 19:36:47 GMT
Organization: The Stuffed Animal Trauma Team  (We're Trained Professionals)

  [A couple -- perhaps artistically licensed ;) -- period sources for
  documenting sexual activity deleted]

  There is also a period book called "I Modi," some pages from which appear
  in Lynne Lawner's "Lives of the Courtesans."  They depict such interesting
  possibilites as "The Frog Position," among others...

  -Iain, amused
--
 ------------------------- Iain Odlin, odlin at reed.edu -------------------------
                  10 Crosby Street, Level 3, Portland ME 04103

From: ctallan at epas.utoronto.ca (Cheryl Tallan)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 12 Oct 1993 13:39:10 -0400
Organization: EPAS Computing Facility, University of Toronto

In article <29c8lf$qu1 at epas.utoronto.ca> sclark at epas.utoronto.ca (Susan Clark) writes:
>Greetings.....
>	At last--copious documentation for making whoopee!
>
>	I have in front of me James Brundage's fine work _Law,Sex, and
>Christian Soceity in Medieval Europe_ (Chicago, 1987).  Said work contains
>several manuscript illustrations showing "the dirty deed".

There is also _The Medieval Health Handbook_ or the _Four Seasons of
the House of Cerruti (sp?)_ both of which have descriptions and
illustrations of something called "coitus" which seems to have a
remarkable resemblance to "sex" <salacious g>

David/Thomas

From: DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 13 Oct 1993 03:51:59 GMT
Organization: Cornell Law School

So far nobody in this thread has mentioned either the Sonetti Lussuriosi
(sp?) with the woodcuts that inspired them, or Aretino's Dialogues. Both
are period and explicit.

Then there is the thousand nights and a night.

David/Cariadoc
DDF2 at Cornell.Edu

From: fnklshtn at AXP3.ACF.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopee!
Date: 14 Oct 1993 06:20:19 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY

In article <DDF2-121093235157 at cu-dialup-0120.cit.cornell.edu>, DDF2 at cornell.edu (David Friedman) writes:
>So far nobody in this thread has mentioned either the Sonetti Lussuriosi
>Aretino's Dialogues.
>
>Then there is the thousand nights and a night.
>
>David/Cariadoc

Add to that Bocaccio
and
of course...
the Talmud.

Nahum

From: DBROWNE at ucs.INdiana.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Documenting Whoopie!
Date: 19 Oct 1993 09:11:58 -0400
Organization: The Internet

Greetings unto all.

I really hate to sound like an authenticity maven on this, 
  ^^^^^^
but . . .  ;-)

One of the commentaries on Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' _De Secretis 
Mulierum_ gives directions.  The citation for a modern 
translation is Helen Rodnite Lemay, _Women's Secrets: A 
Translation of Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' De Secritis Mulierum with 
Commentaries_.  Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1992. ISBN#0-7914-1144-3
(paperback), pp. 114-5. Pseudo-Albertus dates to the late 
thirteenth or early fourteenth centuries. The commentary dates 
to between then and 1508.

Just thought I'd inject that into the conversation in passing, 
as it were.   :-)  :-)

Vlad
-----
Ld.Vladyslav de Jaffa               Minister of Sciences,Shire of Mynydd Seren
Shire of Mynydd Seren               Marshal in Training, Middle Kingdom
Middle Kingdom                      Journeyman Chirurgeon, Middle Kingdom
                        DBROWNE at ucs.indiana.edu

From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Documenting Whoopie!
Date: 20 Oct 93 19:11:58 GMT
Organization: RAND

In article <9310190909.aa04211 at mc.lcs.mit.edu>, DBROWNE at ucs.INdiana.EDU
wrote:
>
> 
> One of the commentaries on Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' _De Secretis 
> Mulierum_ gives directions.  The citation for a modern 
> translation is Helen Rodnite Lemay, _Women's Secrets: A 
> Translation of Pseudo-Albertus Magnus' De Secritis Mulierum with 
> Commentaries_.  Albany, NY: SUNY Press, 1992. ISBN#0-7914-1144-3
> (paperback), pp. 114-5. Pseudo-Albertus dates to the late 
> thirteenth or early fourteenth centuries. The commentary dates 
> to between then and 1508.

Yes, and other advice.  The Ladies may not wish to read some parts of 
this unless they have a well-developed sense of humor.  (Especially the
parts on how to determine whether a maiden is chaste--giggle.  Poor man,
to believe such tales.)

But then I've been known to laugh while reading a 1905 astronomy text.

Philippa
(Whose sense of humor is known to be warped)

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
From: jrp at accint.com (Jason R. Pascucci)
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 1994 19:10:39 GMT
Organization: Access, Inc.

fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU wrote:
: I was studying "Kitzur Shulhan Arukh" (a book of jewish law and advice
: for healthy living).
: At one point the book says "most dangerous to eyesight is excessive
: copulation".
: This got me thinking...
: Today there is a superstition among school children that masturbation will
: cause blindness.

You mean it doesn't (says the man with coke-bottle contacts)? 

: Could this superstion be related to the belief in the above book?
: Where there similar beliefs in many medieval medical books?

I believe there are a few other references regarding it
in some Jewish literature I've read, I can look. Regardless,
I would have recognized this as a Catholic superstition
as well, which is the context in which I heard it,
which I can see being period. 

I believe some literature spoke of premature aging due to
extensive ejaculation/copulation, which implies eyesight loss. 
Some early oriental literature said that the path to long healthy
life is to take the strength from (i.e. cause to orgasm) as many 
virgins as possible without yourself coming to orgasm. Also, the 
concept of orgasm as a 'little death' I recall as period also. 

Alchemical literature suggests a blinding sun/light after 
one (the second?) of the conjunctio of the 'Great Work',
which can arguably be a reference.

Hum...that's all I can think of at the moment. 

: Peace!
: Nahum

Johann

From: Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann at delphi.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 94 23:14:17 -0500
Organization: Delphi (info at delphi.com email, 800-695-4005 voice)

Regarding Nahum and Johann's comments on the medieval belief in the
dangers of excessive sex, let me offer the following from Platina's
_On Honest Indulgence_, which is a 15th century cookbook (derived from
older sources) with many comments on health:
 
"ON TARRYING WITH A WOMAN
Tarrying with a woman, which Hippocrates, that outstanding figure in
the noble field of medicine, has defined as partly an epileptic spasm,
is not to be greatly longed for, nor totally renounced,
since it makes up the process of procreation by which the species is
preserved.  From time to time (as Celsus says) such indulgence is
stimulating to the body, while frequent practice is debilitating.
The term 'frequent' is used here not merely with regard to the number
of times, but with reference to the age and body.  Yet this intercourse
is not unprofitable, and it brings a pleasure with no accompanying
weariness or pain.  It is not so satisfactory in summer and autumn,
and more suitable in winter and spring, and safer at night than  during
the day, if one does not stay up late or work immediately afterward."
[from the English translation published by Falconwood Press]
 
Such statements by ancient scholars would have carried a lot of weight
in medieval Europe, especially when er... coupled with the Church's
distrust of "The Flesh".
 
Brighid
(Barony of Settmour Swamp, East Kingdom)

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: 4 Feb 1994 04:37:48 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

In article <ARCHER.437.2D510634 at hedgehog.ce.utk.edu>,
>I've yet to be convinced that copulation is a period practice.  The only 
>documentation I have seen has been indicative of the practice occuring 
>occastionally in fringe cultures, but has not conclusively proven that sexual 
>congress actually occured between the majority of people in our period.  

Well, I don't know about more peripheral cultures [it's a joke, ok?], but 
I've been fairly well satisfied as far as Wales goes by the evidence found
in "Canu Maswedd yr Oesoedd Canol: Medieval Welsh Erotic Poetry" by
Dafydd Johnston (ISBN 0-9517181-0-X -- I am _not_ making this up!).
The lyrics are fairly detailed and explicit regarding the physical equipment
and implementation thereof. 

Keridwen ferch Morgan Glasfryn

From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Question on medieval sexuality
Date: 8 Feb 1994 04:15:54 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY

In article <mdulcey.760554627 at BIX.com>, mdulcey at BIX.com (mdulcey on BIX) writes:
>ARCHER at hedgehog.ce.utk.edu (T. Archer) writes:
>
>>In article <19940202.23141752.rcmann at delphi.com> Robin Carroll-Mann <rcmann at delphi.com> writes:
>>I've yet to be convinced that copulation is a period practice.  The only 
>>documentation I have seen has been indicative of the practice occuring 
>>occastionally in fringe cultures, but has not conclusively proven that sexual 
>>congress actually occured between the majority of people in our period.  
>
>Well, when you're talking about something that's usually done
>privately like sex, it's hard to document it for certain.  Still,
>there are many pieces of evidence that suggest that sex was not
>invented in the twentieth century.  Sexual themes were certainly
>popular in the literature and song of the middle ages (read any
>Chaucer?).  Not to mention the fact that the human race didn't
>die out :->

Well, I don't know about the rest of the world, but I know that the Jews at
least knew about it.
There are detailed discussions in our legal literature on the subject.
Also, the literature at least claims that Jews copulated -
There is a story about one of our great rabbis (I believe it was Akiba, but I'm
sure Yaakov will corect me if I'm wrong).
It happened when he was a student.
The teacher was at home "getting it on" with his wife, when he noticed
somethingunder the bed.
He investigated and found his student there.
The student explained his reason for being there -
  "It is Torah, and I must learn it!"
The teacher kicked him out, promising to explain everything at Yeshiva (without
he visual aids).

I believe this story is from Talmud (finished aprox. 500 CE), it is definitely
fom a pre- 17th century source.

Shalom,
Nahum

From: HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: On matters of period sexuality
Date: 7 Feb 1994 09:51:04 -0500
Organization: The Internet

          Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov.

          Nahum, you quoted the Shulchan Aruch.  I humbly request a
          cite.  I am *very* curious to see the original language.

          My understanding of the basic difference in philosophy of
          JEws and Christians in period is that Christians regarded
          sex as evil, a remnant of the fall, whereas JEws did not.
          However, in JEwish philosophy, an *excess* of anything
          (except fear of God and learning) is bad.  (Especially true
          in Maimonides philosophy of the Golden Path which humans
          should aspire to, where all passions are precisely balanced
          so that one does not suffer from any excess.)

          As examples of the Jewish philospohy, I cite to Tractate
          Ketubot.  Amongst its grounds of divorce it lists the
          refusal by the husband to satisfy his wife's sexual needs.
          (The mishne, taking into account the frailty of human males,
          establishes a table based on occupation: Camel drivers and
          other heavy laborers need only perform once in 6 months.
          Those with lesser duty may be expected to perform on a more
          regular basis, and the wife of a cholar can insist on
          conjugal relations every day she is permissible.)  Further,
          if a man swears 'Konam Chaphatzeich Ali' ('the pleasure of
          you is forbidden to me') he must divorce his wife.

          There is also one of my favorite bawdy aggadic tales:  A
          group of students were discussing which of them was the most
          brazen.  One said: 'I saw our Rabbi going to the bath house.
           I said to him 'Where do you go?' He said 'To serve God.'  I
          said 'How is this?'  He said 'At dawn, the slaves clean the
          statue of the Ceasre.  Yet that is only the image of a man.
          Should not I, who am made in the image of God, wash myself?'
          Then he pressed me saying 'And why are you so impertinent as
          to ask?' To which I replied 'Master, it is Torah (the Holy
          LAw) and I must learn it.'
          'Why,' said the students. 'You are as brazen as the harlots
          in the market place!'
          'That is nothing,' said another student. 'One Friday night,
          I hid in our master's bedchamber.  As he and his wife
          readied for bed, I was stunned.  For his voice, which we
          have only heard loudly expounding the law or harshly
          rebuking our ignorance.  Was made sweat and tender.
          Further, he said such words to her as I blushed from my ears
          to my ankles.  Then when they came to the bed, he spent much
          time with her (NB: There is no aramaic word for foreplay,
          but that is how I interprate the language).  At last, I
          could not control my curiousity and I looked out from under
          the bed.  When I beheld our master's face, I cried out:
          'Master! You are a man of venerable years, yet your face
          looks as one who goes to his wedding night!'  Our master was
          furious and shouted 'Impudent wretch!  What are you doing
          here!'  To this I replied 'Master, it is Torah and I must
          learn it.'

          (My memory is that this is in MEsechet Shabbot, cited for
          the proposition that it is a double mitzvah (worthy deed) to
          have sex on Shabbos.  I'd have to check.)

          The most famous period tome on the subject is the 'Egeret
          HaKodesh' 'The Holy Letter'.  The author is purported to be
          Nachmonides, but the little scholarship I have read on the
          matter suggests that it was in fact written by a
          contemporary of lesser fame.

          As for non-Jewish philosophy, all I have read is the
          translations of Boccacio and other period compelations.  IT
          appears from these that many Rennaisance figures ridiculed
          the notion that sex was evil, and instead celebrated it.  (I
          am particularly reminded of Rinaldo's condmenation of the
          customs of Scotland of condemning a maiden to death if she
          is found to have had sex before marraige.  So passionate and
          eloquent his plea that an entire English monestary agrees
          the law unjust. This is fiction, BTW, being a scene from
          Ariosto's *Orlando Furioso*.)

          In service,

          Yaakov

From: fnklshtn at ACFcluster.NYU.EDU
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: On matters of period sexuality
Date: 8 Feb 1994 05:10:12 GMT
Organization: New York University, NY, NY

In article <M142122.006.uzrs7.5671.940207144752Z.CC-MAIL*/O=HQ/PRMD=USDOE/ADMD=ATTMAIL/C=US/ at MHS>, HAROLD.FELD at hq.doe.GOV writes:
>          Unto all who read these words, greetings from Yaakov.
>
>          Nahum, you quoted the Shulchan Aruch.  I humbly request a
>          cite.  I am *very* curious to see the original language.

No, that was *Kitzur* Shulhan Aruch.
I will, tomorrow, look for it.
It is in a section on general well being in the first Volume.
Excessive copulation is part of a list of things that will damage eyesight.
(one of the other things is looking too long at whiteness - this is why the sky
is blue the book explains.

Mar Yaakov, your writings are always most illuminating.
I'm curious though, I have, of late, seen many writings which limit types of
sexual activity.
The most permissive was a Rambam cite which said that one could do anything as
long as the ejaculation was inside the vagina.
Do you have any citations to the contrary?

Nahum

>
>          My understanding of the basic difference in philosophy of
>          JEws and Christians in period is that Christians regarded
>          sex as evil, a remnant of the fall, whereas JEws did not.
>     
>          As examples of the Jewish philospohy, I cite to Tracta
>          Ketubot.  Amongst its grounds of divorce it lists the
>          refusal by the husband to satisfy his wife's sexual needs.
>          (The mishne, taking into account the frailty of human males,
>          establishes a table based on occupation: Camel drivers and
>          other heavy laborers need only perform once in 6 months.
>          Those with lesser duty may be expected to perform on a more
>          regular basis, and the wife of a cholar can insist on
>          conjugal relations every day she is permissible.)  Further,
>          if a man swears 'Konam Chaphatzeich Ali' ('the pleasure of
>          you is forbidden to me') he must divorce his wife.
>

From: andwinkl at sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (A. L. Winkler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sexual Practices--Preliminary Bibliography
Date: 7 Feb 1994 13:33:13 -0600
Organization: The University of Texas - Austin

	For those interested in medieval sexual practices, here is a VERY
incomplete bibliography.  However, these few citations will get you
started.

	These are not alphabetical, BTW, but arranged by period.

Boswell, John.  /Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality:  Gay
People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the
Fourteenth Century/.  Chicago:  University of Chicago Press, 1980.  This
won the 1981 American Book Award for history, and, while it has its
problematicc areas, is an excellent study.

McNeill, John T., and HElena M. Gamer, /Medieval Handbooks of PEnance/. 
New York:  Columbia University Press, 1990.  Reissue of their 1938 study. 
SOme of the translations can be a little "nice", but this is still a good
study.  It translates several of the major penitentials, including that of
Burchard of Worms; there are sections dealing with sexual practices.

Bullough, Vern L., and James Brundage.  /Sexual Practices and the Medieval
Church/New York:  Promethius Books, 1982.  This is a collection of essays
which range over topics from prostitution to canon law.

Gies, Frances and Joseph. ?Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages/New
York:  Harper and Row, 1987.  Very accessible if rather light summary.  It
doesn't deal with sex per se but with the way it was managed in the high
middle ages.  You might also see Georges Duby's more scholarly study on
medieval marriage. 

Stone, Lawrence.  /The Family, Sex, and Marriage in England 1500-1800/. 
New York:  Harper Colophon, 1977.  The book has problems--you might want
to search out old reviews.  Like the Gies' and Duby's book, it is less a
study of what people did than how sexuality was managed--which is really
about as far as you will get :)

Other areas and authors:  Look up Allen Frantzen, Leah Otis Skinner,
Brenda Bolton, Penny Schine Gold, Helen Rodnite Lemay, Jo Ann MacNamara,
among others.  For areas which touch on sexuality, look at penitential
literature, discussions of sermon literature, discussions of "marginal
people"--acrobats, heretics, etc.  Wakefield and Evans have a compilation
of writing against heresy--primary source material in translation---and
some of that deals with the "deviant practices" of the Cathars
(Albigenses).  Also, look at studies of sanctity, of all things.

	For primary source material, don't miss the delightfully twisted
Guibert of Nogent (Benton, John F), or the gentle Cistercian, Aelred of
Rievaulx.  Aquinas has TONS of material, and Raymond of PEnafort also has
quite a lot to say.  For stuff on the motherhood and femininity of Jesus,
there's much material by Bernard of Clairvaux--look him (and Aelred) up in
the Cistercian Studies series.  For early material, go back and reread St.
Augustine;s Confessions--count up the mistresses and illegitimate kids ...
 And don't forget the gynecological manuals, of people like Trutula of
Salerno.  Even saintly Hildegard of Bingen can get into the act (Causes
and Cures; I don't think this has been translated yet, though.)

	I have a slightly more thorough bibliography which I could root
out and upload if people are interested.  Very few of these are especially
"down and dirty"--if you're looking for "how to" manuals .... well ... 

	Enjoy!

	Julian of Alney
	(History Department; UT Austin).

From: andwinkl at sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (A. L. Winkler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Sexual Practices--Preliminary Bibliography
Date: 7 Feb 1994 13:43:18 -0600
Organization: The University of Texas - Austin

	Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.  I mis-cited "Trotula of Salerno" as
"Trutula".  You can find a nice edition of hers, in English, in Beryl Rowland.

	On the grimmer side, also check out Duns Scotus, J. de Voraigne,
Jacques de Vitry, Thomas of Cantimpre, Albertus Magnus (esp. the Book of
Secrets).  There's a bit in the (easily available) "History of My
Misfortunes"  (Abelard).  Of these:  a little of de Vitry has been
translated; so has Voraigne and Albertus Magnus.  There are good
translations of Aquinas available.  Most of de Vitry and de Cantimpre is
still in Latin, however.  Check out (for their saints' lives) the
pamphlets put out by the Matrologia Latina (hee!  I love it!) Press from
Kalamazoo; a name would be Margot King (who has done much of the editing).

	Cheers,

	Julian of Alney
	Once a "good Christian" from Carcassonne, but now an orthodox and
truly repentant (well ... ) Beguine ...

From: g_duperault at venus.twu.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Period Sex (or lack thereof)
Date: 7 Feb 94 16:51:42 +600
Organization: Texas Woman's University

In article <CKv5Dw.Gp6 at acsu.buffalo.edu>, v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Ken Mondschein) writes:
> 
> 	I'm pretty sure they did it. I've read the Decameron.
> 
> 	Does anyone know of period non-intercourse sexual things that our
> forebears invented (in other words, when was making out invented?)
> 
        I've got various illustrated "medical" books that quite clearly show
kissing and fondling...c1400.

> 	ALSO, remember that the folks put a huge premium on chastity and
> virginity (in the Rennaissance, this was more for women). This side of their
> philosophy, as great a virtue as chivalry, is so oft neglected in the SCA. We
> should at least give AoA's for chastity (the Order of the Iron Unerwear) ;)
> 
	Yes, but "chastity" was defined somewhat differently than it is today. 
"Purity" did not necessarily mean "not sexually experienced", it was more an
attitude than a physical description.
	A woman could have a lover other than her husbacnd, in fact, it was
understood that married people could not be in love the way "lovers" are, even
though, obviously, they were producing offspring. A "chaste" woman may have
slept around, but she kept her reputation by not flinging the affair into
everyone's face, though the fact of it could not have been kept
secret.(concepts of privacy, secrecy, and alone were VERY different)

	Anyone else out there remember their medieval lit? It's been a lot of
years...

			Avwye

From: Phyllis_Gilmore at rand.org (Phyllis Gilmore)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Period Sex (or lack thereof)
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 94 12:37:35 GMT
Organization: RAND

In Article <CKv5Dw.Gp6 at acsu.buffalo.edu>, v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Ken
Mondschein) wrote:
>
>        I'm pretty sure they did it. I've read the Decameron.
>
>        Does anyone know of period non-intercourse sexual things that our
>forebears invented (in other words, when was making out invented?)
>
>        ALSO, remember that the folks put a huge premium on chastity and
>virginity (in the Rennaissance, this was more for women). This side of their
>philosophy, as great a virtue as chivalry, is so oft neglected in the SCA. We
>should at least give AoA's for chastity (the Order of the Iron Unerwear) ;)
>
>                --Tristan Calir de Lune
>
My library still has all the order of an old bird's nest, so I can't cite
an exact reference or provide a direct quote.  However, I am in possesion 
of a book that quotes A Learned Scholar's opinions on how to determine 
whether or not a woman is a virgin.  If I recall correctly, one method had 
to do with the color of her urine.  

I wonder if even Our Lady could pass some of these tests?!  And how
many of quite another stripe might seem as pure as the new-fallen snow!
What fools men be at times.

Philippa

From: waltern at thoreau.rand.org (Walter Nelson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Period Sex (or lack thereof)
Date: 7 Feb 1994 18:38:22 GMT
Organization: RAND Corporation

Ken Mondschein (v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu) wrote:

: 	I'm pretty sure they did it. I've read the Decameron.

: 	Does anyone know of period non-intercourse sexual things that our
: forebears invented (in other words, when was making out invented?)

: 	ALSO, remember that the folks put a huge premium on chastity and
: virginity (in the Rennaissance, this was more for women). This side of their
: philosophy, as great a virtue as chivalry, is so oft neglected in the SCA. We
: should at least give AoA's for chastity (the Order of the Iron Unerwear) ;)

: 		--Tristan Calir de Lune

If you want the gory details, there is a book currently in print called
"Sex in History".  Ask for it at your local bookstore (in hushed,
conspriatorial tones).  What you will discover in this book however, is
that sex has not changed, attitudes towards sex have changed.

Nobody invented "making out".  It just sort of happened (and happens every
day).  If period literature is to be believed however, the oral part of it
was far more developed--which is to say, they talked a great deal more, and
a great deal more eloquently, before, during and after.  I'm not sure
literature is to be believed on this point, but if you are trying to give
your kanoodeling a period flair, memorize a bit of Shakespeare, Boccacio
or Chretien de Troyes for insertion at the proper moment.

And you know, if you want to interject Medieval European attitudes towards
sex into the SCA, the first thing you would have to do is interject the
pre-Vatican II (and pre-reformation) Catholic Church into all aspects of
SCA operations.  Wouldn't that be interesting.

Of course, the people who were really raising a fuss about sex in the
Middle Ages were the guys who weren't getting any.

I think I've said enough.

                                  Walter

From: bhaddad at lunacity.com (Barbara Haddad)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: RE: Period Sex (or lack thereof)
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 94 10:38:24 PST
Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA

v081lu33 at ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Ken Mondschein) writes:

> 
> 	I'm pretty sure they did it. I've read the Decameron.
> 
> 	Does anyone know of period non-intercourse sexual things that our
> forebears invented (in other words, when was making out invented?)
> 
      In colonial America (1500s-1600s & even later) 'bundling' was 
frequently practiced by young people who were keeping company.  When 
suitor A visited their intended, if the weather was bad or they had a few 
miles to walk to reach home, they would spend the night at their 
intended's.  The parents would put both young loves to bed, _fully_ 
dressed and swathed in blankets, but laying beside one another.  This was 
called bundling.  It did not prevent the pair from having sex, but it 
certainly added many layers of difficulty to the sport.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought from Barbara Haddad -> (bhaddad at lunacity.com)
LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: wklosky at nitro.mines.colorado.edu
Subject: RE: Period Sex (or lack thereof)
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 1994 20:34:26 GMT
Organization: rec.org.sca

In article <PyyFHc1w165w at lunacity.com> bhaddad at lunacity.com (Barbara Haddad) writes:
>      In colonial America (1500s-1600s & even later) 'bundling' was 
>frequently practiced by young people who were keeping company.  When 
>suitor A visited their intended, if the weather was bad or they had a few 
>miles to walk to reach home, they would spend the night at their 
>intended's.  The parents would put both young loves to bed, _fully_ 
>dressed and swathed in blankets, but laying beside one another.  This was 
>called bundling.  It did not prevent the pair from having sex, but it 
>certainly added many layers of difficulty to the sport.
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Just a thought from Barbara Haddad -> (bhaddad at lunacity.com)
>LunaCity BBS - Mountain View, CA - 415 968 8140

Bundling beds that I have seen in Pennsylvania also included a board down the 
middle as well...another "hurdle"!!!

From: andwinkl at sneezy.cc.utexas.edu (A. L. Winkler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sexual Practices--Preliminary Bibliography
Date: 7 Feb 1994 13:33:13 -0600
Organization: The University of Texas - Austin

	For those interested in medieval sexual practices, here is a VERY
incomplete bibliography.  However, these few citations will get you
started.

	These are not alphabetical, BTW, but arranged by period.

Boswell, John.  /Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality:  Gay
People in Western Europe from the Beginning of the Christian Era to the
Fourteenth Century/.  Chicago:  University of Chicago Press, 1980.  This
won the 1981 American Book Award for history, and, while it has its
problematicc areas, is an excellent study.

McNeill, John T., and HElena M. Gamer, /Medieval Handbooks of PEnance/. 
New York:  Columbia University Press, 1990.  Reissue of their 1938 study. 
SOme of the translations can be a little "nice", but this is still a good
study.  It translates several of the major penitentials, including that of
Burchard of Worms; there are sections dealing with sexual practices.

Bullough, Vern L., and James Brundage.  /Sexual Practices and the Medieval
Church/New York:  Promethius Books, 1982.  This is a collection of essays
which range over topics from prostitution to canon law.

Gies, Frances and Joseph. ?Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages/New
York:  Harper and Row, 1987.  Very accessible if rather light summary.  It
doesn't deal with sex per se but with the way it was managed in the high
middle ages.  You might also see Georges Duby's more scholarly study on
medieval marriage. 

Stone, Lawrence.  /The Family, Sex, and Marriage in England 1500-1800/. 
New York:  Harper Colophon, 1977.  The book has problems--you might want
to search out old reviews.  Like the Gies' and Duby's book, it is less a
study of what people did than how sexuality was managed--which is really
about as far as you will get :)

Other areas and authors:  Look up Allen Frantzen, Leah Otis Skinner,
Brenda Bolton, Penny Schine Gold, Helen Rodnite Lemay, Jo Ann MacNamara,
among others.  For areas which touch on sexuality, look at penitential
literature, discussions of sermon literature, discussions of "marginal
people"--acrobats, heretics, etc.  Wakefield and Evans have a compilation
of writing against heresy--primary source material in translation---and
some of that deals with the "deviant practices" of the Cathars
(Albigenses).  Also, look at studies of sanctity, of all things.

	For primary source material, don't miss the delightfully twisted
Guibert of Nogent (Benton, John F), or the gentle Cistercian, Aelred of
Rievaulx.  Aquinas has TONS of material, and Raymond of PEnafort also has
quite a lot to say.  For stuff on the motherhood and femininity of Jesus,
there's much material by Bernard of Clairvaux--look him (and Aelred) up in
the Cistercian Studies series.  For early material, go back and reread St.
Augustine's Confessions--count up the mistresses and illegitimate kids ...
 And don't forget the gynecological manuals, of people like Trutula of
Salerno.  Even saintly Hildegard of Bingen can get into the act (Causes
and Cures; I don't think this has been translated yet, though.)

	I have a slightly more thorough bibliography which I could root
out and upload if people are interested.  Very few of these are especially
"down and dirty"--if you're looking for "how to" manuals .... well ... 

	Enjoy!

	Julian of Alney
	(History Department; UT Austin).

From: BALESM at a1.osti.GOV (Mary Bales (615) 576-8401)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sex in the Middle Ages
Date: 10 Feb 1994 15:23:29 -0500
Organization: The Internet

     There's another good book out there that deals with sex during the 
     Middle Ages:
     
     Sex in History, by Reay Tannahill
     
     This is a good intro book into the subject by the author of "Food in 
     History" (hm...could mix the two...) that not only covers Western 
     European practices but sexual practice throughout the ages all over 
     the world. 
     
     They definitely did it!
     
     Cerridwen du Potier
     mka Mary Bales
     BALESM at A1.OSTI.GOV

From: corliss at hal.PHysics.wayne.EDU (David J. Corliss)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Women's Studies
Date: 7 Feb 1994 14:22:36 -0500
Organization: The Internet

T. Archer has written:

>I've yet to be convinced that copulation is a period practice....

Christine de Pisan writes on the subject in "The Book of the City of Ladies"
and other works (These constitute a "why to", not a "how to"). She demonstrates
that sex was eloquently considered by the leading philosophers of the day. This
would be a good resource for further inquiry.

While we're on the subject, why are there not more classes at Pennsic and such
on what would be described as "Women's Studies", were they to take place at a
modern university? This question came up last year as I was assisting to find 
teachers for desired classes at Pennsic. I only began work on this after June
1, so I was not able to assemble a group to teachers for a whole series of classes on such short notice. This next Pennsic is being organized by the East
Kingdom and I do not know if there is much interest in this there. Certainly
this concept will make progress for the following Pennsic, if not this one.
In any case, here are my thoughts on a series of classes in Women's Studies.
It was designed to be presented in a series of one hour classes at Pennsic on 
successive days, each at the same hour. Obviously, other formats could also be 
used, including a series of classes following each other on the same day at
some event.

1) Philosophical Overview: How was the role of women in society percieved.
   "Dual nature" of women as deciever/betrayer vs. inspiration/savior. 
   Aristotle, Aquinas, and Dun Scotus on women; reply of Christine de Pisan.

2) Women of the Lower Classes. 
   The actual lives where partnership was a neccessity but second class status
   in legal and social standing was a fact of life. The division between 
   perceived gender roles in work, dress, and manner. 

3) Women of the Nobility.
   From the wife of a knight to Ellanor of Aquitaine: the role of women in 
   positions of leadership. Maintenance of a Manor. Status in business and
   legal matters.

4) Intellectual Activity.
   Medieval views towards the education of women. Barriers placed to scholarly
   work and how some overcame them. Correspondance and books from women.

5) Roundtable Discussion of the Role of Women in the SCA. 
   Few will now hold to to a doctrine of gender inferiority but none will claim
   that men and women are identical in their experiences or frame of mind. In 
   this session, a panel of notable women in the SCA will discuss how women in
   our Society are percieved, the accuracy of those perceptions, and how the
   distinctly feminine view contibutes to the shaping of the SCA. 

I will continue to persue this and other avenues of scholarship, especially
regarding philosophy, within the University framework in the Society. My 
current project is to develop a class in Rhetoric: the scholarly manner of 
address. This could be described as a class, taught in-persona, on how to 
teach a class in-persona. (Imagine: just as today, teachers had to be taught
the conventions of teaching. This is an attempt to teach an introduction to 
that subject.) Any and all assistance or interest in these matters would be
greatly appreciated. 

                              Beorthwine of Grafham Wood
                             corliss at hal.physics.wayne.edu

From: jeffs at math.bu.EDU (Jeff Suzuki)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: period sex
Date: 16 Feb 1994 14:51:24 -0500
Organization: The Internet

>Well, when you're talking about something that's usually done
>privately like sex, it's hard to document it for certain.  

Boccaccio.  _Decameron_.  It's valid documentation.  Of course, it is
supposed to be fiction, so maybe ol' Joe made it all up.

Tio

From: meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org (meg)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: re:sexual practices, making out
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 94 21:55:34 EST
Organization: Stonemarche Network Co-op

In Ms. 5070 of the Arsenal Library in France, The Decameron, an 
illumination in section III-10 (putting the devil into hell) shows a man 
and woman embracing.  She is sitting on his lap, with her arms around his 
neck and head, his right arm is around her shoulders and his left arm 
appears to be caressing her thigh.   Their faces are touching, and she 
looks to me like she is puckering her lips to kiss him, although this 
could merely be how she is drawn.  Her face is tilted up towards his, 
though.
I can't say for certain that this is medieval making out, but when I 
found myself in similar circumstances back in high school, I considered 
it to be making out.
This manuscript was produced between 1430-1440 by two Flemish artists, 
the master of Guilebert de Mets and the master of Jean Mansel.  It can be 
seen in the Miller Graphics edition of Boccaccio's Decameron, page 44.

As for copulation, in section III-4, a couple are depicted naked in bed, 
embracing, lips touching.  The text says the friar was taking the 
husband's place in the wife's bed. Make of that what you will.

Megan, who just realized that she is writing this at 10:30 in the evening 
on Valentine's Day.  My husband is in the bedroom, I have better things 
to do than research medieval sex.

== 
In 1994: Linda Anfuso
In the Current Middle Ages: Megan ni Laine de Belle Rive  
In the SCA, Inc: sustaining member # 33644

                                YYY     YYY
meg at tinhat.stonemarche.org      |  YYYYY  |
                                |____n____| 

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: tbarnes at silver.ucs.indiana.edu (thomas wrentmore barnes)
Subject: Re: sexual practices, making out
Organization: Indiana University
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 1994 13:52:09 GMT

	Greetings from Lothar, 

	In "Tacitum Sanitas" A Medieval Health Handbook (George
Brazillier Press) there is a picture of a late 14th c. couple "in
flagrante aardvarkus" as Joe Bob Briggs would say, if you know what I
mean and I think you do. Quite explicit. 

	Aside from the dirty pictures this is a truly wonderful book (or
maybe because of the dirty pictures?) It is a combination health manual/
ingredient list that shows literally hundreds of late 14th c. Italian 
folks going about making or gathering food ingredients or participating
in other "medicinal" activities. Lots of costume ideas, interior
details, ideas for how medieval foods might have been prepared, ideas
for what medieval folk thought was healthful and unhealthy (and why!)
, ideas for what food should be served when (and with what) during a
meal, and stuff like that. 

	Run, don't walk to your bookstore to snarf up this gem before it
goes out of print. At $20 or so it's a steal for anyone who is
interested in 14th c. stuff, medieval medicine, cooking, or costuming.

	If people are interested, I'll bring in the ISBN number and
other good stuff and give a real book review.

	Lothar 

From: chanu1lb at ink.ORG (Chanute Public Library)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Sex in Middle Ages
Date: 18 Feb 1994 16:15:28 -0500
Organization: The Internet

Our shop (Tomes and Tunes) sells a book called _Sex and Marriage in
Ancient Ireland_ by Patrick F. Power.  It claims to cover the legal systom
governing sexual and marital affairs in pre-12th century Ireland.  I have not
had much opportunity to look at this book (we usually get it in just
before events and then sell out at the event) and would be interested to
know if anyone has an opinion either pro or con.
 
Katriana op den Dijk
Calontir
chanu1lb at ink.org

From: nusbache at epas.utoronto.ca (Aryk Nusbacher)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Pope Joan - inspiration
Date: 13 Aug 1994 22:48:38 GMT
Organization: University of Toronto -- EPAS

In article <32h4oo$1jk at harry.lloyd.com>, Pattie McGregor <pat at lloyd.com> wrote:

>... I have been to medieval conferences with period scatology
>and pornography that have been presented with some humor and elan.

Speaking of discussing mediaeval pornography with humour and elan, you
might want to do a search on Arjo Vanderjagt's stuff -- I've heard him
speak with aforementioned humour and elan about fabliaux, and he's top
notch.

He's not even a real Dutchman.

Aryk Nusbacher

Who is convinced that the French war college invented "elan" because
the British already had mindless courage, the Germans already had
professionalism, and they didn't want to be left out.

Date: Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:44:40 SAST-2
From: "Ian van Tets" <IVANTETS at botzoo.uct.ac.za>
Subject: SC - Re: hedgehogs & very OOP & OT

<snip>

    2)  for period documentation on conception and associated matters,
may I recommend Boccachio's decameron (particularly book 7 from
memory).  Most English translations leave the more specific "recipes"
in Italian but I am sure there are those of you who would enjoy doing
the redaction.

Jan van Seist (mka Ian van Tets)
Adamastor (mka deepest darkest Africa), Drakenwald

Date: Thu, 9 Apr 1998 9:15:46 -0500
From: "I. Marc Carlson" <LIB_IMC at centum.utulsa.edu>
Subject: re: Beavers (was Stefan's Florilegium)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

<"Trevor Barker" <barkert at delete.logica.com>>
>>>Geraldus Cambrensis (c1200) mentions Welsh beavers.
>>>Apparently, beavers were hunted for their testicles.
>>They were also hunted for a substance called 'castorie' which is
>>described as the dried perineal glands of the beaver, or their 
>>secretions (The perineum is the region between the anus and scrotum 
>>or vulva). This was fairly widly used in medicines of the period. 
>>It is among the top 50 most commonly used components of Gilbertus 
>>Anglicus' Compendium medicinae
>That's interesting.  I wonder whether Gerald got it wrong, and mistook
>perineal glands for certain other glands?

He could have made the mistake, the translator could have made a mistake,
whoever he learned about it from could have made a mistake, or (and I
think it most likely) the jargon wasn't as explicit as what we are used
to in our modern, post-Rennaisance, "everything is ordered and organized
into its absolute basic componts" world.

In _Sexuality and medicine in the Middle Ages_ (Danielle Jacquart and
Claude Thomasset, Princeton University Press, 1988) the first section is
an interesting exploration of "Anatomy, or the quest for words".  There
is even a comparison of the Male's and the Female's testicles, since 
early on (and Gerald *was* writing in the 12th century) there was a 
contention that men and women had the same generative organs -- they just
developed differently in the infant -- and so the same chart might be
used to describe them both.

Marc/Diarmaid O'Duinn
lib_imc at centum.utulsa.edu

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1999 00:05:03 EST
From: LordVoldai at aol.com
Subject: SC - Lord Frederich's iron maidens and cherries?

Actually a strawberry would probably be a more period interpretation of that
which every maiden has.  Recall Desdemona waiving a white handkerchief with
red strawberries on it throughout much of the play.  Much is made of this
handkerchief as it sympolizes her lost maidenhead on her bridal sheets.  At
least this is the interpretation that my college prof gave it.

Volodislav ludozertzça z Karpat

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 11:13:29 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - adults only feast serving idea / Dutch (NL) book

And it came to pass on 3 Jul 99,, that LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> I suppose this is so. But I haven't been convinced that this was even
> considered a 'naughty picture' in the middle ages. Is this another example
> of interpreting medieval culture according to modern Judeo-Christian
> ideals?

Medieval Christian ideals disapproved of the activities shown in that
picture.  Sexual activities in a semi-public place were considered A Bad
Thing, to the best of my understanding.  As to whether the picture itself
was "naughty"... first I'd want to know what you mean by the term.
Immoral?  Titilating?

> of course, I'll never no since the only available source for that
> information that I am aware of CA 13 has been prohibited from being
> republished under the insidious guise that it was 'unscholarly,' IIRC.
[snip]

The only available *SCA* source.  I couldn't get into the Library of
Congress catalog (suspect they're offline for the holiday), but a quick
search on amazon.com pulled up a bunch of decent candidates for inter-
library loan:

The Invention of Pornography : Obscenity and the Origins of Modernity,
1500-1800

Common Women : Prostitution and Sexuality in Medieval England
(Studies in the History of Sexuality)

Making Sex : Body and Gender from the Greeks to Freud

Constructing Medieval Sexuality

The witch on the wall : medieval erotic sculpture in the British Isles

Happy researching!

Brighid

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 1999 13:32:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - adults only feast serving idea / Dutch (NL) book

On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:
> > of course, I'll never no since the only available source for that
> > information that I am aware of CA 13 has been prohibited from being
> > republished under the insidious guise that it was 'unscholarly,' IIRC.
> [snip]
> The only available *SCA* source.  I couldn't get into the Library of
> Congress catalog (suspect they're offline for the holiday), but a quick
> search on amazon.com pulled up a bunch of decent candidates for inter-
> library loan:
><snip>

> Constructing Medieval Sexuality

_Constructing Medieval Sexuality_, Karma Lochrie, Peggy McCracken, and
James A Schultz, eds. (University of Minnesota Press, Minneapolis, 1997.)

I have a copy of this on my bookshelf, and it is a much better source that
CA #13 ever could have been. Not about porn, really, but about society's
morals and mores concerning sexuality and sexual expression. Lots of stuff
about the clergy, of homosexuality and gay threads in texts, gender roles
and gender confusion, and a really great article by Michael Camille (a
noted art historian) on representations of sex in manuscript
illuminations.

I also have:

_Medieval Prostitution_, Jacques Rossiaud (Blackwell, Oxford UK, 1995)

Everything you could ever want to know about prostitution in medieval
Europe- the laws and ordinances, customs, sumptuary laws, etc. Also a fair
amount of info on marriage customs vis a vis young men expected to run the
town with the whores before they are married (much info from Italy,
interestingly enough). Prostitutes are seen as protecting respectable
girls and young married women from assault by marauding young men.
Interesting concept.
        And the paperback cover has a delightful picture (15th c) of
couples in big bathtubs, with a tester and curtains over, and a table
pushed up to the tub- with a meal laid out on the tables. The couple in
front seems to be eating bread and cherries with their wine. The
tablecloth is elaborately fringed and embroidered too! (Forgive me my
preoccupation with tablesettings...)

'Lainie
- -
Laura C. Minnick

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 07:18:24 EDT
From: LyAngharad at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Ras' Church lesson for the day

Re: << Documentatoin, please?" >>

I taped this book for the Library for the Blind, and they may not have been
an "official" part of the Church, but they were accepted as part of life as
it is really lived and allowed to be there.

Sexual Practices and the Medieval Church
by Vern L. Bullough and James Brandage
Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY 14215
Copyright 1982, 289 pages
Did this one before I started keeping track of ISBNs, so I don't have that.

It was an interesting read -- and had some "interesting" ideas that they
related to the AIDS stuff today (more under discussion of things OTHER than
sex!).  It's been quite a while since I did this one and I have forgotten a
lot, but was impressed with it (favorably).

Angharad
Namron (Norman, OK), Ansteorra

Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 09:30:02 -0400
From: "Robin Carroll-Mann" <harper at idt.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Ras' Church lesson for the day

And it came to pass on 22 Sep 99,, that LyAngharad at aol.com wrote:
> Sexual Practices and the Medieval Church
> by Vern L. Bullough and James Brandage
> Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY 14215
> Copyright 1982, 289 pages
> Did this one before I started keeping track of ISBNs, so I don't have
> that.

According to the Library of Congress catalog at http://catalog.loc.gov/
the ISBNs for that book are
087975141X
0879751517 (pbk.)

> Angharad
> Namron (Norman, OK), Ansteorra

Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)

Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 09:45:50 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
Subject: Re: SC - OT - Sex sells everything!

Diana L Skaggs wrote:
> I have a friend who watches a lot of TV.  
<snip>
>  According to the
> program, we could be hanged, mutilated or burned at the stake for playing
> with vegetables.  Also, for a time, the definition of sodomy included sex
> between a married couple with the woman on top. And they say big brother is
> watching us now? Leanna

Father Abelard here-

According to the Canon Law, that is absolutely correct. Marital
relations with the woman on top is considered aberrant because it
violates the natural, God-given order of male supremacy, because the
woman is the weaker vessel and more easily deceived, etc (don't blame
me, I'm just reporting what the law says!). Remember, this is also a
system under which a man who loves his wife too much, 'immoderately'
according to Thomas Aquinas (i.e., he *enjoys* sexual relations with
her) is an _adulterer_. Harsh? Yup. But the status quo is that A) sex is
only for married couples, and B) it is not to be enjoyed- only for
procreation, so no having fun!

An interesting wrinkle though- we all know about avoiding too-close
degrees of consanguinity- there is another consideration called
'affinity', and this is ties created by being godmother/godfather,
through marriage (i.e., in-laws), and through sexual relations. This is
why Henry VIII was allegedly so concerned with his marriage to Katherine
of Aragon, because it violated the laws of Affinity (thought they got a
dispensation, but hey...). By this law, if Jack has sexual relations
with Jill, he is then in a way spiritually related to her, and cannot
then marry her sister. Strictly speaking, he cannot marry Jill now
either, though this is usually got around by penance and a little
insence-waving by the bishop.

Now the fun part- the bond of affinity (that is, the sexual one, not
that of godparent) is ONLY created through straight-forward, man-on-top,
'missionary-position sex. Nothing fun, kinky, unusual, decadent, etc.
Affinity is not created by having sex with the woman on top, other
interesting positions, homosexual relations, etc. When I was in canon
Law class, and we were covering this, our instructor, a dear, dear man
named Father Augustine (who was a fine professor and a nifty guy) was
going into some detail about how this works, and when we got to this
point, and he explained that only ordinary sex creates affinity, not
'unusual' or aberrant positions or practices. Some helpful soul of
course said, 'innocently' "But Father, how would you define 'aberrant'?
Could you give us examples? Just so we are certain? We aren't sure what
you mean..." And Father Augustine turned purple... poor guy. Of course,
one of the guys in the back commented, sotto voce, "I guess my roommate
can still marry his dog then!" and we all broke up, it was so gross...

Obligatory food content- aside from doing things *with* food, it was
considered too decadent to have food and drink with you/involved in
lovemaking- so no crackers in bed. You're supposed to get it done and
ovewith and pray a child results. But no fun, so champagne and
desserts... which is interesting in light of the pictures of bathhouses,
you know, where everyone is in the bathtub with his prostitute, and off
to the side you see them in bed? Across or next to the bathtubs there's
usually pitchers of wine and plates or bowls of cherries. Harumph! Most
decadent! As if we needed further evidence of the sin and sensuality!...

Father Abelard the Lesser

('Lainie is covering her face and snickering- she has a lot of fun- too
much in fact- and will likely need to do much penance in the future...)

Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2000 10:18:59 -0600
From: Mary Haselbauer <slaine at stlnet.com>
To: a & s <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Michael Camille

Beside The Medieval Art of Love the other stuff by Michael Camille I
have are a book called Images on the Edge: The Margins of Medieval Art
and an article called "Manuscript Illustration and the Art of
Copulation." in the book Constructing Medieval Sexuality.

BTW, I heard him once on This American Life on NPR. They were doing a
show about reenactments of history and when they visited a Medieval
Times resturant they brought him along to get his impressions. It was
hilarious. I sent them email inviting them to an SCA event. We'll see.

Slaine

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 03:36:21 +1100
From: "Lee-Gwen" <piglet006 at globalfreeway.com.au>
Subject: SC - Cucumber jokes (again - but period this time)

I thought that, given the recent fascination with cucumbers on this List,
this excerpt from a posting on another list to which I subscribe might
appeal.

'And as documentation for the periodness of cucumber jokes, there
is a quote from Ottaviano Boy, a Venetian envoy to the Ottoman
court in Constantinople during the mid-16th century, who writes
that for the women of harem of Suleiman the Magnificent, "it is
not lawfull for any one to bring ought in unto them, with which
they may commit deeds of beastly uncleannesse; so that if they
have a will to eate Cucumbers, they are sent in unto them sliced
to deprive them of the meanes of playing the wantons".'

Fancy slicing them and taking away all that harmless (or beastly, depending
on one's point of view, I guess) fun!

Gwynydd

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 12:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Raphaella DiContini <raphaellad at yahoo.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

I have, or have information on several Italian books that are either "health manuals" or erotic in nature, but sadly I've been fairly persona driven so I haven't looked further elsewhere. It's sounds delightful though!

Raffaella 

--- On Thu, 9/17/09, emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it> wrote:
<<< Has anyone here heard of the Speculum al foder / Mirall del
fotre, a 14th century catalan sex manual? 

So far I have only found articles like the ones quoted
below, not the text itself.

E.

http://publicacions.iec.cat/Front/repository/pdf/00000030/00000077.pdf

http://www.anglo-catalan.org/jocs/11/Articles%20&%20Reviews/Versio%20pdf/08%20Speculum%20Review.pdf

http://www.edicionsvitella.com/pdfs/Fragments%20Speculum.pdf

http://www.raco.cat/index.php/Gimbernat/article/view/44031/54046

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:46:28 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

It sounds like this book

ALBERNI, A. (ed.). Speculum al foder.
Girona: Edicions Vitel?la. 2007. 137 pp.
ISBN: 978-84-935295-7-4.

contains it.

Johnnae

On Sep 17, 2009, at 3:22 PM, emilio szabo wrote:
<<< Has anyone here heard of the Speculum al foder / Mirall del fotre, a 14th century catalan sex manual?

So far I have only found articles like the ones quoted below, not  
the text itself.

E. >>>

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 15:56:36 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

Yup. You can also find it under the alternative name "Speculum al joder". books.google.com has snippet views.

toodles, margaret

--On Thursday, September 17, 2009 3:46 PM -0400 Johnna Holloway
<johnnae at mac.com> wrote:
<<< It sounds like this book

ALBERNI, A. (ed.). Speculum al foder.
Girona: Edicions Vitel?la. 2007. 137 pp.
ISBN: 978-84-935295-7-4.

contains it.

Johnnae >>>

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:33:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al foder)

<< This is very interesting. Any chance this is a translation of Constantinus Africanus' de coitu? 

Giano >>

Indirectly, yes.

See: 
http://www.anglo-catalan.org/jocs/11/Articles%20&%20Reviews/Versio%20pdf/08%20Speculum%20Review.pdf

"As Alberni affirms, the work is quite a faithful translation of the Liber minor de coitu, an anonymous treatise of andrology fixed in Salerno in the 12th century from the famous Liber de coitu by Constantinus Africanus (which makes use, in turn, of unknown Arabic sources)."

E. 

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 16:47:46 -0400
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

Regards another book, albeit Persian(?), in translation on the general 
subject written between the 14th and 16th century
http://www.sacred-texts.com/sex/garden/index.htm,
http://burtoniana.org/books/1886-Perfumed%20Garden/index.htm and
http://www.tantra-sex.com/perfumedgarden.html

If I recall correctly some of the recipes for "remedies" for certain 
complaints/conditions might be of culinary interest.

Daniel 

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:11:36 +0000 (GMT)
From: Volker Bach <carlton_bach at yahoo.de>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

--- Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps <dephelps at embarqmail.com> schrieb am Do, 17.9..2009:
<<< If I recall correctly some of the recipes for "remedies"
for certain complaints/conditions might be of culinary
interest. >>>

Yes, they are. Incidentally, there is a nwewer translation than Burton (the publishers claimn also more faithful) into German: 

Marzolph, Ulrich (trsl.): Der Duftende Garten zur Erbauung ds Gem?ts: Ein arabisches Liebeshandbuch, C.H. Beck Verlag, Munich 2002, ISBN  340649580x.. It certainly looks good, though i can't speak to the accuracy. The recipes are very interesting, some even sound feasible without risk to life, limb and wallet.

Giano

Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:26:57 -0400
From: "Daniel & Elizabeth Phelps" <dephelps at embarqmail.com>
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT 14th century sex manual (Speculum al
	foder)

There is reportedly a direct translation to English of the Perfumed Garden 
that was published in 1999 that is at odds at several points with Burton's. 
Burton's translation was actually a translation to English of a French 
translation.  I understand that the French translation and thus Burton's was 
not a full translation.  Reportedly Burton was working on a direct 
translation when he died.  It is said that his wife burned it after going 
through his papers subsequent to his death.  Got to love those proper 
Victorian Ladies.

Daniel

<<< Yes, they are. Incidentally, there is a nwewer translation than Burton (the 
publishers claimn also more faithful) into German:

Marzolph, Ulrich (trsl.): Der Duftende Garten zur Erbauung ds Gem?ts: Ein 
arabisches Liebeshandbuch, C.H. Beck Verlag, Munich 2002, ISBN  340649580x.. 
It certainly looks good, though i can't speak to the accuracy. The recipes 
are very interesting, some even sound feasible without risk to life, limb 
and wallet.

Giano >>>

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	p-sex-msg	Page  of