p-herbals-msg - 11/17/19

Period herb books. Modern translations and reprints.

NOTE: See also the files: herbs-msg, seeds-msg, herb-uses-msg, lavender-msg, rue-msg, spices-msg, garlic-msg, Basic-Herbs-art, herb-mixes-msg, p-agriculture-bib.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:49:34 -0600
From: khkeeler <kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip

DianaFiona  at aol.com wrote:
> <<
>  Carob is mentioned in the Dioscorides' herbal (AD 64 and the most
>  important medicinal herbal across all of Period)
>   >>
>       OK, next question---anyone know where to get a modern translation of
> this? Or, for that matter, any other of the numerous period herbals. I have
> Culpeper's and an abreviated edition of Gerard, but I haven't seen any others
> offered. But they are quoted freqently, so I tend to think that they are
> around--somewhere......
>   Ldy Diana

I don't think its' easy.  What are the sources--
Dioscorides is out of print.  There is an English translation from the
1930's in older university libraries. I admit to xeroxing it but I'd buy
a copy if one were available.  

Galen and Pliny on plants anyone?

The Tacunium Sanitatis --Medieval Health Handbook.  two very different
editions were printed about 10 years ago, doubtless both are out of
print--tho I found one at a used book store on at trip to Minneapolis
recently.  I can get you the ISBN's if you want.

Macer's the Virtues of Herbs (1000 AD I think) was translated by D.P.
O'Hanlon about 1980 and published by Hemkunt Press, Delhi.  I think it's
still in press through obscure New Age importers--I can provide an
address. 
I would like to find a copy of the original Latin.  Anyone know a
source?

Hildegard of Bingen's medical writings.  Because noone in Period quoted
her, I haven't hunted, but I think they are available in recent
translations.

There are a variety of mid Period herbals in various languages based on
Dioscorides.
Anyone have sources for those?

By late Period
Gerard and Culpeper, both reprinted.
There was a facsimile edition of Turner's herbal published in England in
the last decade--I lusted after it but wasn't willing to pay the price.

Banks' herbal, the Grete Herbal--those I think are still only available
at the big libraries.

I found Cockayne on Leechcraft (complex title, but a translation of all
the AngloSaxon Medieval stuff he could find) in a library but I don't
think there's a version in print.  Anyone know?

Other things for an herbalist?

Agnes deLanvallei
Mag Mor, Calontir

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:26:42 -0700
From: Evelyn Alden <katriana  at chanute-ks.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Herbals

Dover has reprinted the complete Gerard's herbal, most any bookseller who
carries Dover books should be willing to order it for you.  Last time I
checked it was $85 dollars, or thereabouts.  weight is 10-15 lbs hardbound.
Dover also publishes _The Garden of Pleasant Flowers" by Parkinson, orig.
published in 1629, just under $25.

katriana
Calontir

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:12:58 -0600
From: theodelinda  at webtv.net (linda webb)
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Herbals

I believe DIoscorides is one of the many Greek & Roman authors whose
works are available in the Loeb editions, which are published by the
Harvard University Press.  You can get ordering information through your
bookeller, or by calling HUP's 800 number, which is available through
directory assistance.  For those who are unfamiliar with this useful
series, they are facing-page translations of ancient authors (Greek or
Latin on the left-hand page, and English on the right-hand one), which
are (for this sort of thing) reasonably priced (the last time I bought
one, about $23)  (This may seem high to people who don't know this
field, but I have seen books in the original language only sell for $60
hb, and $30pb...)  They are hardbound, the Greek ones in Green and the
Latin ones in red.  In addition to the more common authors, like Caesar,
Plato, and Cicero, the Loeb editions include a lot of more obscure
material, like the scientific writers.  For those who are interested in
ancient and medieval farming, they have both Cato and Columella, for
example.  The one drawback is that, because the books are small, a text
might require three or four volumes.
                                                  Theo

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:20:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Carol Thomas <scbooks  at neca.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Beans in a Period/herbals

>Tacunium Sanitas - Medieval Health Handbook

This is still in print, in paperback, by Ratti, pub. by Braziller.

Hildegard of Bingen's "Medicine" is also in print, pb, authors Dr. Wighard
Strehlow and Gottfried Hertzka, MD, publisher is Bear & Co.
It combines exerpts from Handbuch der Hildegard-Medizin with the authors'
ideas on folk medicines and commentary on her recommendations.

Lady Carllein

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 03:18:42 -0500 (EST)
From: <DianaFiona  at aol.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Re- Beans in a Period Recip

<< 
 The Tacunium Sanitatis --Medieval Health Handbook.  two very different
 editions were printed about 10 years ago, doubtless both are out of
 print--tho I found one at a used book store on at trip to Minneapolis
 recently.  I can get you the ISBN's if you want.>>

Hummmm, just checked Small Churl Books
(http://www.neca.com/~scbooks/)--they do have it! Here's the blurb:

MEDIEVAL HEALTH HANDBOOK
Luisa Cogliati Arano (Braziller)
Selected from five important illuminated manuscripts on health, this
delightful book explains the effects which plants, foods, winds, flowers,
seasons and other factors were believed to have on a person's medical status.
Some examples: beets cure dandruff, roses cure inflamed brains, spinich is
good for a cough, and pinecones stimulate the libido. 153 pages, softcover.
291 illustrations, 48 in color. Size: 6.5 x 9.
Price: $19.95
 
   Ldy Diana

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:48:45 -0600
From: kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu (Kathleen H. Keeler)
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: herbals

>The only version I know of is:
>
>Author:         Cockayne, Thomas Oswald, 1807-1873.
>Title:          Leechdoms, wortcunning, and starcraft of early England : Being
>                   a collection of documents, for the most part never before
>                   printed, illustrating the history of science in this country
>                   before the Norman conquest
>Published:      London : Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts, and Green, 1864-66.
>
>Unless there is a much more recent edition, good luck finding it (and if
>you find 2 copies -- let me know!) and it is a tad too early for an ISBN.
>If you are neat a large library do look for it.  It is great fun.
>Ailene ingen Aedain

 There's a more recent version--same title, 1961 The Holland Press, London.
So there should be an ISBN, but I don' have it recorded.
Agnes
kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:49:00 -0600
From: kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu (Kathleen H. Keeler)
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Herbals (was Re Beans in a Period Recip

An Arab "health handbook" made its way into Europe, translated at least
four different times and places.  The Four Seasons of the House of Cerruti
is a very pretty edition of one of the copies (14th Century, Po Valley, Italy,
apparently commissioned for some member of the House of Cerruti.  ) Judith
Spencer, tr. The four seasons of hte House of Cerruti, Facts on File
Publications, New York andBicester, England. 1983. ISBN 0-8160-0138-3,
originaly $17.95!)  Its more accessible than the Arano book because its a
single whole, with very useful commentary at the end.
Arano's is pretty clearly the core of a PhD thesis which studied all the
extant copies.  It assumes you know more about the 4 humours theory and not
all the names are translated (look for lettuce under under lactuce (the
Latin?)
        Both versions are simply wonderful for the illustrations--which can
be used in all sorts of contexts you never planned.  I used one to document
serving wine from small jugs.  And sent someone else to it for the pictures
of a hen house. The Arano version has more pictures, tho smaller and in
black and white, and so there are more items documentable or that can be
studied from that version.

> Macer's the Virtues of Herbs (1000 AD I think) was translated by D.P.
> O'Hanlon about 1980 and published by Hemkunt Press,  E 1/15 Patel Rd. New
>Delhi--110008, but I got it from Auromere (booksellers) 1291 Webster St.
>Pomona CA 91768.  (714) 629-8255 (that's from a sticker in the book, may
>not be current).Its a small book and was under $20.  The translation was
>done with New Age use of herbs in mind (the footnotes link to American
>Indian uses) but its close to being a primary source, being a full
>translation of Macer's work.

Agnes
kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:35:33 -0500 (EST)
From: <DianaFiona  at aol.com>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: herbals

<< 
 Author:         Cockayne, Thomas Oswald, 1807-1873.
 Title:          Leechdoms, wortcunning, and starcraft of early England : Being
                    a collection of documents, for the most part never before
                    printed, illustrating the history of science in this country
                    before the Norman conquest
 Published:      London : Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts, and Green,
1864-66.
 
 Unless there is a much more recent edition, good luck finding it (and if
 you find 2 copies -- let me know!) and it is a tad too early for an ISBN.
 If you are neat a large library do look for it.  It is great fun.
  >>

   Yeeeehaaa! Just on a whim, I did a search on the author's name, and found
a site at the Un. of Alberta library
(http://gate.library.ualberta.ca/MARION/AME-8994) that lists it---and says
that the one they have is a *1965* reprint of the original!
    Then further searches indicated that the original is part of something
called "The Rolls Series" (? Whatever that is.......) and there is a link for
this listing on ORB On-line Referenence Book for Medieval Studies
(http://orb.rhodes.edu/online.html  It's a great site--actually has some
links to period documents on-line!), that has this about the book:

. 3 vols. London, 1864-1866. 

I.Herbarium of Apuleius, with its continuation from other writers, the
Medicina de quadrupedibus of Sextus Placitus, and various leech doms and
charms. II.Leech book, bks. 1-3. III.Recipes, prognostics, starcraft, and
charms, with glossaries; and Anglo-Saxon fragments relating to St. Mildred's
abbey in Minster in Thanet and King Eadger's establishment of monasteries. 
      It also lists the other sections in the book (Which for some reason
refuse to paste in :-(, but they include the Leechbooks which I'd love to
read!

      I can see that I'll have to hit the ILL hard and heavy once Christmas
is over and I have time to think again. ;-) Thanks for the info!

   Ldy Diana

[submitted by "Philippa Alderton" <phlip  at bright.net>]
From: khkeeler <kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu>
To: herbalist  at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: HERB - Begining Herbalism 101
Date: Oct 10, 1998 12:05 AM

Ghislaine Fontanneau wrote:
> I am Ghislaine Marie Fontanneau, lately of Ansteorra and recently of the
> Outlands.  I've been learning a bit about herbalism mundanely, and now
> I'm itching to find period applications for what I've learned.  Can
> ya'll recommend some good sources for herbalism pre-17th c.?   I want to
> learn the herbalism that my persona would have known.
>
> Ghia

We made a pretty good list of authentic sources some time ago: did
anyone keep it?  and, do we have a summary of on-line references?

Ghia, here's my overview of the situation (others please fix my
overstatements!)

Almost all of the period sources of Italian/French/German/English
tradition are retellings of the Dioscorides' _De Materia Medica_, Latin,
64 AD, out of print or available only in very expensive editions.  But
that is what most period medical people used, in some form.

 Culpeper's writings and Gerard's (both very end of Period) are
accessible--in print in various versions, some not too expensive.  They
represent additions from the views of earlier times, but are essentially
period sources.

 Macer "On the virtues of herbs" has a 1970's translation that I
believe is still in print and available (D.P. O'Hanlon translation,
"Macer's on the virtues of herbs" Hemkunt Press, New Delhi, available
through various New Age sources).  This was a poem about 1200.  The
information is largely from Dioscorides.

 They used classical sources -- Galen, Pliny, Plato, Aristotle, Strabo
-- tho at least some of them were not widely available until late period
and so unknown although technically extant.

 A different tradition comes out of the Moslem healers: they maintain
some of the classical sources better than the western Europeans, and are
more experimental.  About 1000AD the mainline European tradition starts
to pick up Arab ideas --  the Tacunium Sanitatis is in print in at least
one form and represents the presentation of an Arab healing manual in
France and Italy.  (Somebody said a Georges Brazillier (that's the
publisher) edition is available through Amazon.com)

Jewish medicine is quite separate, I think.

Dioscorides is southern European (Mediterranean) and the northern
Europeans had different plants available but in Period, the science
didn't understand regional differences in plants as far as I can tell.
There's almost certainly a separate tradition from the local people of
northern Europe but most of that was lost as Christianity took over.
For AngloSaxon herbals: many years ago Cockayne made a translation of
everything he could find, which is not in print in any widely accessible
form. That is a very weird mix of rewritings of Dioscorides, nonsense
(charms in pseudoLatin), and maybe some uniquely northern herbalism.

Culpeper in some editions has a section at the back on methods, the
best genuine how-to I know of.

Agnes

From: John Simutis <simutis  at verio.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Renaissance chompie toys
Date: 22 May 1998 18:43:33 GMT
Organization: Verio Northern California's Usenet News Service

David Dendy <ddendy  at silk.net> wrote:
: Just to toss in another item of trivia that has risen to the surface of my
: memory. Whole orris root used to be used, and was known as "teething root".
: Sorry, I can't remember where I read this; you'll just have to dig.

Couldn't find orris in it, but ran across

http://www.med.yale.edu/library/historical/culpeper/culpeper.htm

"Culpeper, Nicholas, 1616-1654.
The English physitian: or an astrologo-physical discourse of the vulgar
herbs of this nation.
London : Peter Cole, 1652.
8 p.l., 255 p. (i.e. 159 p.), [5] p., front. (port.)
Pages numbered 1-92, 189-255.
Harvey Cushing's copy.

This electronic version was prepared by Richard Siderits, M.D., and
colleagues by keying from the copy at the Historical Library,
Cushing/Whitney Medical Library, Yale University. Adaptation to HTML by
Toby Appel." 
-- 
John Simutis                                    simutis  at ccnet.com 

[Submitted by: "Philippa Alderton" <phlip  at bright.net>]
From: khkeeler <kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu>
To: herbalist  at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject: Re: HERB - Begining Herbalism 101
Date: 19 Oct 1998 12:05 AM

Ghislaine Fontanneau wrote:
>I've been lurking around, and now I'm ready to come out and show myself.
> I am Ghislaine Marie Fontanneau, lately of Ansteorra and recently of the
> Outlands.  I've been learning a bit about herbalism mundanely, and now
> I'm itching to find period applications for what I've learned.  Can
> ya'll recommend some good sources for herbalism pre-17th c.?   I want to
> learn the herbalism that my persona would have known.
>
> Ghia

We made a pretty good list of authentic sources some time agodid
anyone keep it?  and, do we have a summary of on-line references?

Ghia, here's my overview of the situation (others please fix my
overstatements!)

  Almost all of the period sources of Italian/French/German/English
tradition are retellings of the Dioscorides' _De Materia Medica_, Latin,
64 AD, out of print or available only in very expensive editions.  But
that is what most period medical people used, in some form.

   Culpeper's writings and Gerard's (both very end of Period) are
accessible--in print in various versions, some not too expensive.  They
represent additions from the views of earlier times, but are essentially
period sources.

   Macer "On the virtues of herbs" has a 1970's translation that I
believe is still in print and available (D.P. O'Hanlon translation,
"Macer's on the virtues of herbs" Hemkunt Press, New Delhi, available
through various New Age sources).  This was a poem about 1200.  The
information is largely from Dioscorides.

   They used classical sources -- Galen, Pliny, Plato, Aristotle, Strabo
-- tho at least some of them were not widely available until late period
and so unknown although technically extant.

   A different tradition comes out of the Moslem healers: they maintain
some of the classical sources better than the western Europeans, and are
more experimental.  About 1000AD the mainline European tradition starts
to pick up Arab ideas --  the Tacunium Sanitatis is in print in at least
one form and represents the presentation of an Arab healing manual in
France and Italy.  (Somebody said a Georges Brazillier (that's the
publisher) edition is available through Amazon.com)

  Jewish medicine is quite separate, I think.

  Dioscorides is southern European (Mediterranean) and the northern
Europeans had different plants available but in Period, the science
didn't understand regional differences in plants as far as I can tell.
There's almost certainly a separate tradition from the local people of
northern Europe but most of that was lost as Christianity took over.
For AngloSaxon herbals: many years ago Cockayne made a translation of
everything he could find, which is not in print in any widely accessible
form. That is a very weird mix of rewritings of Dioscorides, nonsense
(charms in pseudoLatin), and maybe some uniquely northern herbalism.

Culpeper in some editions has a section at the back on methods, the best
genuine how-to I know of.

Cheers
Agnes
kkeeler1  at unl.edu

Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:40:12 EST
From: WOLFMOMSCA  at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Nerve Bisquits???

In a message dated 99-01-26 10:08:24 EST, Anne-Marie wrote:
<< our very own Leticia Troischiens does these "hildies nerve cookies" to
 great reviews. She also admits she knows of no primary source documentatio
 for them (and she's looked a lot). >>

They may be from _Hildegard von Bingen's Physica_.  Newly translated into
English for the first time, available from Healing Arts Press, 1 Park St,
Rochester, VT 05767, at a cost of $25.00.  Reviewed in the Feb/Mar Herb
Companion magazine.  They had this to say:

"The text reveals nine systems of healing, each based on categories of natural
creation: Plants, Elements, Trees, Stones, Fish, Birds, Animals, Reptiles, and
Metals.  Describing the attributes of each in terms of hot, cold, moist and
dry.  Hildegard describes how to prepare and apply many different remedies,
what herbs and other materials to ignore, and what substances--dragon's
blood, for instance--are downright poisonous."

Wolfmom

Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 15:15:12 -0600
From: Kathleen Keeler <kkeeler  at unlinfo.unl.edu>
To: sca-arts  at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Gerard's Herbal

Jenne Heise wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, rmhowe wrote:
> > Ingvild wrote:
> > > Gerard, John.  "The Herbal."  New York:  Dover, 1975.  (THE 17th century
> > > herbal, again in black-and-white.  Still available from Dover, I believe, but
> > > rather pricey.  You may want to get it through inter-library loan first.)
> > Seen it recently in hardback in the Bargain books section of a
> > Barnes and Noble for less than $10.
>
> *blink* are you sure? This is the 11x14, 4 inch thick version? Green
> binding? $80 from Barnes & Noble .com?
>
> I know there is a [Leaves from] Gerard's Herbal out there, which might
> well be remaindered.
>
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa (Shire of Eisental; HERMS Cyclonus), mka Jennifer Heise

I own two editions of Gerard's herbal . The unabridged (cost about $100), and a
condensed version that has lots of detail removed.  Like grasse:  there are no
grasses described in my short form.  I was given the latter a while ago, I think 
it was printed in the '60's or before, and so there may be more modern printings 
of shortened forms.  Its not tiny: maybe 300 pages, but very much less than the
unabridged.  This edition does not say clearly that it is not complete.
Perhaps Gerard in his lifetime issued some shorter tomes.

Agnes

Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 06:01:15 -0800 (PST)
From: darkwater <darkwater9  at yahoo.com>
To: SCA Arts Listserve <SCA-ARTS  at UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Gerard's 1633 Herbal

I have a copy of Gerard's Herbal.  Mine is a complete reproduction of
the original down to size (~3 feet by 2 feet by 6 inches) to the
beautiful woodcuts, old english language and typeface, and the
misnumbered pages.  The cover is green and white, the publisher is
Dover, the price tag was around $110 and I ordered it through the
local bookstore.

If you wish anymore information or details, email me privately at
darkwater9  at yahoo.com

Douglas
Elvegast, Windmaster's Hill, Atlantia

Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:36:35 -0500
From: renfrow  at skylands.net (Cindy Renfrow)
Subject: SC - Gerard's Herball

Hello!  I've finally finished my page of culinary gleanings from Gerard's
Herball.  Please visit.  There are a lot of recipes & interesting tidbits
of information.

The page can be found at: http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html
(Note: this is a new url.)

Cindy Renfrow
renfrow  at skylands.net

Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1999 14:04:43 -0500
From: "Richard Kappler II" <rkappler  at home.com>
Subject: SC - Index to Gerard's herbal

Having obtained her permission to do so, I would like to commend Lady
Temair, who is lurking amongst us, for a most magnificent piece of work.
Many of us use Gerards Herbal in our research of period cooking as well as
other 'crafts' we pursue within the Society.  It is a cumbersome volume
though and I for one have found it difficult to use.  Lady Temair has
compiled an index, a pair of them actually, that lists the contents of this
book both alphabetically and in ascending page number.  I have found this
extremely helpful in my research and now refer to Gerards on an almost daily
basis as opposed to a reference of last, sometimes painful, resort (due only
to my own laziness ;-).

Thanks to Lord Eadric, this fine work is available on the web at:
http://users.ev1.net/~uisge/sca_brew/gerards.htm

VIVATS! and thank you Tara!

regards, Puck

Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:51:00 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings  at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - Re Gerard's Herbal

>>>>>From: Richard Keith <keith.78  at osu.edu>
Just got a copy of Gerald's herbal.  Now I must get a permanent copy for
myself.<<<<

Did you get the full bells and whistles Dover edition (10 pounds or so
& $100) or just the little Dover abridged version?

>>>>Question:  Are the Latin names he has given correct.  IE, could I start
looking for modern plants my the family name?Subject: SC - Gerald's
Herbal<<<<

No, they are not at all accurate, or at least dependably accurate
in a consistant manner.  Even contemporary taxonomy is still reclassifying
and renaming species and reassigning families.  Any modern plant
book over 10 years old is partially obsolete.  The old Herbals bounce
bad Latin and Greek all over the place and it is difficult sometimes to
figure out what plant they are naming.  The illustrations are often the
only way to guess what they are talking about as they often are
describing non-existant amd imaginary species based on legend and
rumour.

>>>>Has anyone ever gone through and listed his multi lingual references to
things?  Looks like a good project if it has not been done.  Or looked up
what modern equivalents are.<<<<

I doubt that anyone has done so, as Gerard's command of other
languages was about as good as his Latin and Greek.  In other words,
rather poor.  If anyone has the credentials to do multiple translation
from 8-10 period languages and dialects (with a lot of misspelled or
inaccurate words in Gerard)  into their modern idioms and then, from
there into modern English, I admire their intellectual capacity.
It is certainly beyond me.  One must remember that Gerard
plagurized the bulk of the work in The Herbal from translations
of another work by another person.  His scholastic credentials
are about as good as a modern person running a commercial
nursery and landscaping operation today.   Approach Gerard
with caution as he introjects a great deal of popular hearsay into
his work.  You probably need a fair amount of modern botanical
study to select the accurate from the false in The Herbal.
This is especially an essential credential for anyone trying
multi-lingual documentations from this source.  A working
knowledge ofmodern botony would be essential to making the
outcome of the final analysis be of value.

Akim Yaroslavich

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 10:47:53 EDT
From: Acanthusbk  at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Re Gerard's Herbal

The Dover facsimile of Gerard's Herbal is not out of print, nor is it close 
to going out of print. Dover has a huge stockpile of these in inventory. See
http://www.acanthus-books.com/herorgenhiso.html

It's pretty horrifying to hear that Dover is referring customers to Amazon. 
FYI, to those of you who buy books online, do yourself a favor and see

http://www.addall.com

and

http://www.bookfinder.com

two search engines for online book shopping price comparisons. Jeff Bezos has 
fooled consumers into thinking Amazon.com has everything available, at the 
best price. Wrong on both counts. And speaking of scams, don't get me started 
on Alibris.

Amanda
Acanthus Books 
(A proud member of IOBA, the Independent Online Booksellers Association 
<http://www.ioba.org>)

Also see <http://www.noamazon.com>
and <http://nowebpatents.com>

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 17:05:48 -0400
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli  at infoengine.com>
Subject: SC - Re: Gerard's Herbal

Lord Akim asked Lord Frederich:
>Did you get the full bells and whistles Dover edition (10 pounds or so
>& $100) or just the little Dover abridged version?

I think the bells and whistles edition weighs more than 10 pounds.
I know for a fact that a misbalanced copy can adequately flatten an
overweight cat when dropped from the height of a standard queen
sized mattress and boxspring. :)

Incidently, my copy only cost 60 dollars US including shipping
from Barnes and Noble online. Regrettably, not available at
their website at this time. However, copies do appear in a
quick search of the www.bookfinder.com site.

Frederich asked and Akim responded:
>  >>>>Question:  Are the Latin names he has given correct.  IE, could I start
>looking for modern plants my the family name?Subject: SC - Gerald's
>Herbal<<<<
>
>No, they are not at all accurate, or at least dependably accurate
>in a consistant manner.  Even contemporary taxonomy is still reclassifying
>and renaming species and reassigning families.  Any modern plant
>book over 10 years old is partially obsolete.

Keep in mind that the taxonomic difficulties may not have
been the problem of Gerard. The edition most commonly
used and quoted from and printed or abridged today is not
the edition written by Gerard. It is typically the 1636
edition of Thomas Johnson's expansion and edited version
of Gerard. A very large difference indeed. And the weighty
tome mentioned above does have some elaborate methods
of indicating exactly which pieces are original Gerard and
which pieces are those of Johnson's change or addition.

However, that having been said, I think all hope is not lost.
Take a copy of Gerard, a copy of Maude Grieve's Herbal
(out of period, but much closer to mundania) and a good
herbal written within the last 7 years and you're on your
way to a first draft taxonomic map. I would peronally add
Culpepper to that list between Gerard and Grieve just for
an added point of reference. (Note I'm only listing easily
accessible documents...)

Akim went on to say:
>The illustrations are often the
>only way to guess what they are talking about as they often are
>describing non-existant amd imaginary species based on legend and
>rumour.

I don't personally think Johnson's edition of Gerard is quite that
bad. Older herbals, yes.

Frederich further asked and Akim responded:
>  >>>>Has anyone ever gone through and listed his multi lingual references to
>things?  Looks like a good project if it has not been done.  Or looked up
>what modern equivalents are.<<<<
>
>I doubt that anyone has done so,

If you mean has anyone taken just that bit of the document out
and set it down with modern taxonimic classifications, then I
can give you a resounding "no" unless someone has managed
to sneak it by me. This statement of course puts me on
dangerous grounds, but I have been actively searching for it
for 15 years. It could have slipped by, but I've not seen it.
SO if anyone has seen it, I BEG YOU to allow me a peek at it.
*grin*

Akim stated:
>One must remember that Gerard
>plagurized the bulk of the work in The Herbal from translations
>of another work by another person.

More than one person (cf. the Agnus Castus manuscript and
its English translation from the University of Uppsula, as
well as the admittedly out of date work done by Agnes Arber
tracing early printed manuscript stemma and their sources).

Iasmin "Who Pushed My Verbose Button?" de Cordoba
gwalli  at infoengine.com

Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 21:55:31 -0500
From: "RANDALL DIAMOND" <ringofkings  at mindspring.com>
Subject: SC - RE: Gerard's Herbal

Frederich comments:
>>>>However, that having been said, I think all hope is not lost.
Take a copy of Gerard, a copy of Maude Grieve's Herbal
(out of period, but much closer to mundania) and a good
herbal written within the last 7 years and you're on your
way to a first draft taxonomic map. I would peronally add
Culpepper to that list between Gerard and Grieve just for
an added point of reference. (Note I'm only listing easily
accessible documents...)<<<<<

Culpepper.  Hmmmm.....    I think the best way to utilize
Culpepper is to take it one or two two pages a day and
put it to use.  My only complaint with my copies is they
do not come in perforated rolls and the pages are not quite
soft enough.   Seriously,  Culpepper is not a good source
for any kind of serious study of botanical taxonomy.  The
editor of the NATIONAL ENQUIRER couldn't write a 
more wacky, mumbo-jumbo herbal.

Akim Yaroslavich

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 10:14:14 -0400
From: "Gaylin Walli" <gwalli  at infoengine.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Re: Gerard's Herbal

Akim wrote:
>Seriously,  Culpepper is not a good source
>for any kind of serious study of botanical taxonomy.  The
>editor of the NATIONAL ENQUIRER couldn't write a
>more wacky, mumbo-jumbo herbal.

The vast majority of the information, however is quite
in line with the information available at the time. Culpepper
was a noted plagerist (by our standards) of the first
order. The part of his writings that most people object
to are the astrological comments. That may well be
the source of your "wacky, mumbo-jumbo" opinion.

But in terms of botanical taxonomy, for the
recreationist cook or otherwise, his work serves as
a very adequate bridge between time periods. The
accuracy or validity of his information isn't what is
at issue. The information he presents *does* give
someone a perfectly acceptable view of what they
called things during his time. Culpepper is much
maligned, and I think it's not justified.

For those of you interested in looking at Culpepper,
you can find two versions of it webbed. The first
is from Bibliomania and is the inferior of the two
(in that it isn't as nicely webbed):
http://www.bibliomania.com/NonFiction/Culpeper/Herbal/

The second is from the Yale Medical Library:
http://www.bibliomania.com/NonFiction/Culpeper/Herbal/ (sic)

Many cooks on the list might find these links useful.

Jasmine
Iasmin de Cordoba, gwalli  at infoengine.com

Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:16:55 +0200
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy  at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: SC - Gerard

>  >>>>Has anyone ever gone through and listed his multi lingual references to
>things?  Looks like a good project if it has not been done.  Or looked up
>what modern equivalents are.<<<<

Not that I know of.

I've made a list of his culinary references & posted that here:
http://members.aol.com/renfrowcm/gerardp1.html

I have the Dover edition, btw.  I got it from Dover several years ago.
There is another, better, edition:
Gerard, John.  The Herball or Generall Historie of Plants.  London, 1597.
Rpt. Walter J. Johnson, Inc.  Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd.  Keizersgracht
526, Amsterdam, 1974.   This is a very large 2-volume set, & I wish I owned
it.  I borrowed it through ILL.

 The Dover edition has been reduced, so that the Greek characters of the
plant names are for the most part illegible. The modern introduction lists
the texts from which Gerard 'borrowed'.

Cindy Renfrow/Sincgiefu
cindy  at thousandeggs.com

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 07:05:23 +1000
From: "Drake & Meliora" <meliora  at macquarie.matra.com.au>
Subject: SC - New Book: Aztec Herbal (1552) translation

The following just came over the Amazon alert this morning.  Does anyone
know anything about this?

An Aztec Herbal : The Classic Codex of 1552
by William Gates  (Translator), Martin De LA Cruz
Publication date: June 2000
Publisher: Dover Pubns
Binding:Paperback
Subjects: Aztecs; Ethnobotany; Materia medica

Meliora

Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 12:45:27 -0500
From: Acanthus Books <acanthusbk  at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: SC - New Book: Aztec Herbal (1552) translation

This is a 1939 translation of the 16th c. manuscript Libellus de 
medicinalibus Indorum herbis that was "discovered" in the Vatican Library 
in the 1930's. Multiple copies of this and an associated article published 
in 1935 by the Smithsonian can be seen offered for sale online at 
www.bookfinder.com, although most appear to have languished there because 
they are overpriced. A couple with somewhat detailed descriptions:

Gates, William The De La Cruz-Badiano Aztec Herbal of 1552. Baltimore: , 
1939 The Maya Society Pub. No.23. XXI/144pp. Numerous illus. of plants and 
the medical use by the Aztecs. Gates has translated the Aztec into English. 
[note from Amanda - this is incorrect, Gates translated the LATIN into 
English]. Contains the full text and all of the plants as contained in the 
original manuscript: Codex Barbarini, Latin 241. Note: The Gates 
translation differs in some degree from "Thre Badianus Manuscript 
translated by Emily Walcott Emmart in 1940. Book # 000193 Price: US$ 250.00 
Homepage of Bob Fein Books, NM, U.S.A.

Author is Emmart, Emily Walcott
Title is The Badianus Manuscript. (Codex Barberini, Latin 241), Vatican 
Library. An Aztec Herbal of 1552. With a foreword by Henry E. Sigerist.

EMMART, Emily Walcott. : Concerning the Badianus Manuscript, an Aztec 
Herbal, 'Codex Barberini, Latin 241' (Vatical Library). ; Washington, D.C., 
Smithsonian Institution, May 18 1935. 8vo. (4) + 14pp. With 4 plates 
(facsimiles of the MS., one in colour). Publisher's printed wrappers. A 
scholarly article on this first American herbal, recently discovered, and 
the 'only one written by the Aztecs themselves'. It was composed in 1552 in 
the 'College of Santa Cruz at Tlaltelolco, Mexico City ... the first 
college erected for Indians', and is attriibuted to Martin de la Cruz whose 
name appears in the dedication; he wrote out the work in Aztec, and it was 
then translated into Latin by Juannes Badianus, also a student at the 
College. Well preserved, inoffenseive stamp on cover. Smithsonian 
Miscellaneous Collections, vol 94, no 2. GBP35.00 View the Hunersdorff Rare 
Books Home Page at www.bibliofind.com

Amanda
Acanthus Books
http://www.acanthus-books.com

Date: Thu, 18 May 2000 23:18:36 +0200
From: Thomas Gloning <gloning  at Mailer.Uni-Marburg.DE>
Subject: SC - Online herbal in progress: Tabernaemontanus 1625

There are several German herbals of the 16th century, and they are
helpful for many questions (What kinds of apples were there?, ...). One
of the later herbals was written by Jacob Tabernaemontanus. The first
edition was published around 1590, after T.'s death. Later on Caspar
Bauhin took care of the book, and his edition of 1625 is available
online (a work in progress; according to the title page, the work
describes 3000 plants).

   http://www.kraeuter.ch

Thomas

To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gerard's Herball
From: "Christina L Biles" <bilescl  at okstate.edu>
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 10:54:35 -0600

The URL for Early English Books Online is
http://wwwlib.umi.com/eebo/

Unfortunately, you have to be a member institution for full access to the
project.  Gerard is free and is found at:

http://wwwlib.umi.com/eebo/query?qName=top100_Botany

It is wonderful.  ;>

-Magdalena

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2001 23:54:40 -0500
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gerard's Herball
From: Rosalyn MacGregor <rosalyn  at hotpop.com>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>

I wrote:
>> You do know, right, that a facsimile is available online as part of the
>> Early English Books Online project? You can print out a single page, or
>> the whole bloody thing, if you wish.
>>
>> Rosalyn MacGregor
>
> Do you have the URL for that?  Please.
> Olwen

The URL is http://wwwlib.umi.com/eebo/featured

You'll find Gerard's Herbal under the Botany link.

Rosalyn MacGregor
(Pattie Rayl)

Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2001 18:35:02 -0500
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
From: "Cindy M. Renfrow" <cindy  at thousandeggs.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gerard's Herball

I have a copy of the Dover edition of Gerard's Herbal:
Gerard, John.  The Herball or Generall Hi=86torie of Plants.  London, 1633.
Thomas Johnson, ed.  Rpt. Dover Publications, Inc.  1975.
This is the complete 1633 edition as edited by Thomas Johnson. IIRC Johnson
added over 700 more plants to the book. The only problem I have with this
Dover edition is that it is slightly reduced in size from the original,
making the Greek characters illegible.

The Woodward edition is hopelessly incomplete, and a waste of money.
Woodward, Marcus.  Gerard's Herball, The Essence thereof Distilled by
Marcus Woodward from the Edition of Th. Johnson, 1636.  Crescent Books.
New York, 1985.

Gerard, John.  The Herball or Generall Hi=86torie of Plants.  London, 1597.
Rpt. Walter J. Johnson, Inc.  Theatrum Orbis Terrarum, Ltd.  Keizersgracht
526, Amsterdam, 1974.  An enormous work, literally. It is in 2 volumes  &
far superior to the Woodward edition.  Priced at over $200.

Cindy

Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2002 18:01:15 -0500
From: johnna holloway <johnna  at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org, jemoore  at firstam.com
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Ram's Little Dodoen

This is part of the Early English Short Title
Catalogue record:
Author: Dodoens, Rembert, 1517-1585.
Title: [Cruydenboeck. English. Abridgments]
 Rams little Dodeon [sic] A briefe epitome of the new
 herbal, or histoy of plants. snipped
 Collected out of the most exquisite newe herball,
 or history of plants, first set forth in the Dutch
or Almayne tongue, by ... D. Reinbert Dodeon, ...
 and lately translated into English by Henry Lyte, ...
 and now collected and abbridged by William Ram, Gent.
 Pandit oliua suos Ramos.
Published: Imprinted at London : By Simon Stafford,
 dwelling in the Cloth Fayre, at the signe of the
 three Crownes, 1606.
Physical Details: [43], 213 p. ; 4=B0.

The Cambridge University copy was microfilmed as:
STC (2nd ed.) 6988.
 Microfilm. Ann Arbor, Mich.:
 University Microfilms International, 1978.
 1 microfilm reel: 35 mm (Early English books, 1475-1640; 1481:07).

That means it should be up on EEBO online if
you have access to that. However, EEBO is down for
maintenance so I can't verify at the moment that it
is there. Or you could use the microfilm.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 08:09:28 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] reading list
From: Barbara Evans <mathilde  at borg.com>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>

I bought an interesting little book at Midrealm Coronation last weekend.

It is called "Nature Illuminated: Flora and fauna from the court of the
Emperor Rudolf II." Authors are Lee Hendrix and Thea Vignau-Wilberg;
published by the J. Paul Getty Museum, Los Angeles, 1997; ISBN#
0-89236-472-6.

Cost was $15.00 and well worth it for the beautiful color plates showing
fruits, nuts, flowers, small animals, insects, herbs, snails, caterpillars,
(and even a tomato!), all done in the late 1590's. The artist, Joris
Hoefnagel (1542-?1601) was commissioned by Emperor Rudolf II to illustrate a
work called The Model Book of Calligraphy, which had been created in
1561-1562 by master calligrapher Georg Bocskay for the Emperor's
grandfather, Emperor Ferdinand I.

Bocskay left lots of space on the pages of ornamental calligraphy samples,
and Hoefnagel filled the spaces with realistic and detailed illuminations
from the natural world. Forty-one of the 128 folios are reproduced in this
little book, with a key to the fruits, nuts, flowers, insects, etc. in each
one.

Of course, a picture of a tomato done in period does not count as evidence
that anyone at the court of Rudolf II was actually *eating* tomatoes at that
time,  but it certainly is interesting. I wonder if there are any other
vegetables shown in the plates which were not reproduced here. Anyone have
access to the J. Paul Getty Museum in LA? Perhaps asking to see the original
might be....illuminating?

Mathilde

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker  at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] reading list
Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2002 07:25:31 -0500

>I bought an interesting little book at Midrealm Coronation last weekend.
>
>It is called "Nature Illuminated: Flora and fauna from the court of the
>Emperor Rudolf II." Authors are Lee Hendrix and Thea Vignau-Wilberg;
>published by the J. Paul Getty Museum, Los Angeles, 1997; ISBN#
>0-89236-472-6.
>
<clipped>>
>Mathilde

Carolus Clusius was the director of the Botanical Gardens in Vienna for
Maximilian II, Rudolf's father, and held that position for a while during
Rudolf's reign.  Some of the illustrations may be of plants Clusius added to
the collection.  Any tulips in the illustrations?

Bear

From: jenne  at fiedlerfamily.net
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:58:21 -0400 (EDT)
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: Herbals

> >That isn't actually what I asked, BTW. There are some good works on the
> >history of herbals (one I can cite offhand is Rohde's _Early English
> >Herbals_) and of course there are three or four more scholarly ones.
>
> Ooops.  you are right; I did misread the question.  I have Rohde and
> rely a good deal on its excellent bibliographies.

There's a new one just out recently, too: _An Illustrated History of the
Herbals_ by Frank Anderson, goodness knows if it's any good, and there's
the old standard _Herbals : their origin and evolution : a chapter in the
history of botany, 1470-1670_ by Agnes Arber which I'm ashamed to say I've
only skimmed.

Akim, would you be interested in writing up a short rant on Culpeper for
my kingdom herbalist guild newsletter? I'm trying to wean people off Mrs.
Grieve and Culpeper but when you do most of your emailing from work and
your books are at home, you get sloppy and use what's on the web.

(And have you read _Charleston Kedding: A History of Kitchen Gardening_? I
found it fascinating -- just finished reading it all the way through-- but
would be interested to know what a professional thought of it.

-- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:38:27 -0400
From: johnna holloway <johnna  at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
To: sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Herbals

Anderson is good, but it's not new. My hardback says
Columbia University Press, 1977. This must be a reprint.
He surveys 32 works.
And yes Charleston Kedding is very nice and very readable.
Another to take a look at is The Country House Kitchen Gardens,
1600-1950, edited by C. Anne Wilson. It compliments
the Charleston Kedding volume very well.

Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis

jenne  at fiedlerfamily.net wrote:
>snipped--->
> There's a new one just out recently, too: _An Illustrated History of the
> Herbals_ by Frank Anderson, goodness knows if it's any good, and there's
> the old standard _Herbals : their origin and evolution : a chapter in the
> history of botany, 1470-1670_ by Agnes Arber which I'm ashamed to say I've
> only skimmed.
snipped (And have you read _Charleston Kedding: A History of Kitchen
Gardening_? I
> found it fascinating -- just finished reading it all the way through-- but
> would be interested to know what a professional thought of it.>
> -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa

From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker  at worldnet.att.net>
To: <sca-cooks  at ansteorra.org>
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2002 14:21:25 -0500
Subject: [Sca-cooks] An interesting Herbal

While on vacation, I bought a used copy of Joesph Wood Krutch's Herbal,
primarily because Krutch is an entertaining and informative author and the
book was illustrated with old style woodcuts.  It is a 1976 reprint of a
1965 issue.

Reading it has been a surprise and a pleasure.  The illustrations (106 of
them) are taken from Mattioli's Commentaries on the Six Books of Dioscorides
(the Prague edition of 1563 and the Venice edition of 1565).  Krutch's
comments reference period texts and he provides a brief but annotated
bibliography.

Bibliographic info is:

Krutch, Joesph Wood, Herbal; David R. Godine, Boston, 1976.

ISBN  0-87923-171-8 hardbound
         0-87923-165-3 softcover

LCC   65-20676

Bear

Subject: Re: websites with herb/'squashed bug' illumination?
From: "Patricia Collum" <pjc2  at cox.net>
To: "SCA-ARTS  at listsvr.pca.net" <sca-arts  at listsvr.pca.net>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 11:42:49 -0700

> Hi! I just got an email from someone outside the SCA looking for
> illustrations of herbs as medicine for a poster he is doing. I've sent him
> some book titles, but can anyone recommend some websites that specifically
> have illumination of herbs, especially done in the 'squashed bug' style?
> --
> Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise       jenne  at mail.browser.net

Here's a cool herbal:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/ashmole/1431.htm

Cecily

Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 21:33:35 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Favorite Herb Books
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

While it probably won't help you with this, Thomas Gloning has transcripts
of a number of period herbals on his web site.
http://www.uni-giessen.de/gloning/ch/ch.htm

Bear

> I've been reading a great herb book which has some detailed info on the
> particular herbs.  I'd like to learn about more different herbs though and
> more specifics on using them.  Does anyone have recommendations?  I am
> interested in cooking uses, medical uses, and other useful functions such
> as making dyes.
>
> Sharon

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 21:22:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fuchs again
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

Fuchs's Latin herbal (Historia stirpium, 1542) is here:
http://koblenz.de/stb/fuchscd/

E.

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 22:07:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] One more digital Fuchs
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

There is another version of Fuchs's 1543 German herbal online. It is  
reproduced from a copy which probably belonged to Fuchs's personal  
library.

http://w210.ub.uni-tuebingen.de/dbt/volltexte/2001/237/

Emilio

Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:25:46 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins Fuchs
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

>> The first reference I have to publication lists 1541, but the 1542  
>> and 1543 editions seem to be more common.
>
> I have never heard of a 1541 edition, and there is no such edition in the
> "Published works of Leonhart Fuchs" mentioned in Appendix 7 of the Stanford 
> edition of the Latin herbal 1542.
> Do you know, where a 1541 copy might be extant?
>
> Emilio

I haven't encountered one.  It is possible that the reference I first found
contained a typographical error.  However, Smith, Betran and Runge give a
1541 date for the second illustration of corn in Fuchs' Herbal in Corn:
Origin, History, Technology and Production.  Charlotte Porter in "The
Scientific Cosmos of Columbus: An Overview" also gives the date of
publication as 1541.  And there are some other sources I have encountered
over the years with the 1541 date.  So, if the 1541 date is an error,  
it is an error that has propagated.

Bear

Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:45:19 -0600
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] names for newly discovered plants
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> Okay, I remember the maize (Indian corn) and Turkey, which is more
> obvious, but what was the phrasing or whatever that related capsicum
> peppers to India? Just the "pepper" portion of the name? Was it
> thought that all of the peppers, black, white, long came from India?
> Or was "India" simply being used as a synonym for that area to the  
> East?

Capsicon rubeum & nigrum   Roter und brauner Calcutische Pfeffer
Capsicum oblongius              Langer Indianischer Pfeffer
Capsicum latum                    Breyter Indianischer Pfeffer

Turcicum frumentum              Turkische Korn

Fuchs ties maize to Turkey and the capsicums to India.  In the case of
maize, it's likely that the grain had entered Central Europe from Turkey, so
the naming is obvious.  How he tied the Capsicums to India, I have no idea,
other than there was still some confusion about the difference between India
and the West Indies, although Balboa had determined that the Americas were
not part of Asia when he crossed  the Isthumus of Panama in 1513 and any
lingering doubts were ended when Magellan passed through the Straits of
Magellan and entered the Pacific in 1521.

Since Piper nigrum and Piper longnum appear to be missing from the Herbal, I
wonder if Fuchs may not have been confused by the differences between the
Pipers and the Capsicums.

Mattioli (1544) says about peppers, "We put among the Peppers this kind
which we call Indian Pepper because its taste is very biting and sharp.  We
also still call the Capsicums 'Pepper'."  Since I only have excerpts from
Mattioli, I can't chase his views on Piper and Capsicum, but apparently
there was a quaestion about how to classify the Capsicums.

> We sometimes laugh at this use of "India" this and that, including
> the use of the name for the inhabitants of the Americas, but what
> would a better alternative have been for them? If you had come across
> the capsicum pepper(s), what would *you* have called them>?

I believe Columbus refers to them as "aji" and pimento, but I don't  
have my copy of the Diario handy.

> Who knows, we may be faced with this again. Say in 500 years we are
> landing on the planets of another star system and come across native
> vegetation there. How would we name it, except in terms or variations
> of terms that we already know? Perhaps if it was rather hazardous or
> seemed to be particularly useless, we might name it after a disliked
> politician, but that is still naming it after something we know.
>
> Stefan

Common names might be a little problematic, but I suspect that any
xenobiologist would apply standard analysis and taxonomy as biologists have
done since Linnaeus set forth the basic system in Philosophia Botanica
(1750).

Bear

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 07:22:38 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] squashes/pumpkins Fuchs
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

There's a *Herbarum vivae eicones ad naturae imitationem  1532-1540 that
Fuchs is listed as having worked on. There are 3 copies listed by  
Worldcat.

> A number of medical books from the 1530's also list him. The
> cataloguing for the 1543 Herbal lists it as a second edition
> with this note: *Pritzel (2nd ed.); 3139.*
> Anderson in An Illustrated History of the Herbal lists the 1542 as the
> earliest. 

I checked and the 2001 Taschen edition
of The New Herbal of 1543 lists 1542 as the earliest.
Certainly a book of 900 plus pages and 511 woodcuts would have been in
production for quite some time, but I suspect
as Bear does that someone made an error in a source past times and it's
been repeated in a number of sources since.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:22:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fuchs and Brunfels
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

> There's a *Herbarum vivae eicones ad naturae imitationem  1532-1540

As far as I can see, the author is Otto Brunfels. According to my
sources it was published 1532-1536 in three parts:

http://num-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr:8080/view/authors/Brunfels,_Otto.html

http://imgbase-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr/displayimage.php?album=174&pos=3

cataloguing for the 1543 Herbal lists it as a second edition

Fuchs says that the 1543 edition is for a different target group.
In several places of the 1543 edition
he refers to the Latin edition 1542 for further information.
In the preface of the 1543 edition he says that the German
herbal is adapted to a different readership and that certain parts of  
his Latin herbal are irrelevant for a vernacular audience.

Emilio

Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 19:36:51 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Fuchs and Brunfels
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

> There's a *Herbarum vivae eicones ad naturae imitationem  1532-1540
>
emilio szabo wrote: 
> As far as I can see, the author is Otto  
> Brunfels. According to my sources it was published 1532-1536 in three parts:

The Worldcat cataloguing still lists Fuchs as a contributor for that
work. He's one of perhaps 4 people listed.
And that title turns up in a search under Fuchs which is why I  
mentioned it.

Johnnae

Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:44:04 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Hieronymus Bock herbal was elderflower & Currants
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org

<<< (side note:  *"Grosselbeer." Stachelbeere (Ribes grossularia). Auf der

R?ckseite: "Wegdornbeer." Purgier-Kreuzdorn (Rhamnus cathartica). 2

Darstellungen auf 1 Blatt.
*Altkolorierte Holzschnitte auf ganzer Textseite von David Kandel aus
Hieronymus Bock "Kre?ter Buch" 1595. 32x20 cm. Blattgr?sse.
Its sounds like an intersting book within our period - source:
http://www.antiqbook.de/boox/wen/IQ-G26523.shtml) >>>

The 1630 edition of the Bock herbal is available in the SCID online collection:
http://imgbase-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr/displayimage.php?album=163&pos=2

If I am not mistaken, the first edition was published in the mid 16th century.

Does anyone know of one of the earlier editions online?

E.

Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:09:53 -0500
From: "Terry Decker" <t.d.decker at worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Hieronymus Bock herbal was elderflower &
	Currants
To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

<<< If I am not mistaken, the first edition was published in the mid 16th 
century.

Does anyone know of one of the earlier editions online?

E. >>>

Boch's Kreuter Buch was first published in 1539.  The first edition has no 
illustrations.  The Latin edition of 1552 is supposed to have the most 
illustrations.  I haven't found any editions on line, so the one you report 
is a first in my view.  I do know that there are some editions in the 
Cornelius J. Hauck Botanical Collection at the Cincinnati Museum Center, but 
they aren't webbed.

The first name has appeared as Jerome (or a variant), Hieronymous, and 
Hieronymus.  The last name has appeared as Boch, Bock, Bosch, and Bos. 
Botanical work was also published under the names Hieronymus Targus and 
Hieronymus Herbarius.

Bear

Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 19:52:43 +0100
From: "Susanne Mayer" <susanne.mayer5 at chello.at>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] zuckerwurtzel Tabernaemontanus
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>

thank you for the link, here is an other one I used sometimes.
http://www.kraeuter.ch/

you can even search for names.

Katharina

From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
<<< The herbal of Jacobus Theodorus, called Tabernaemontanus, mentions the 
name Zuckerwurtzel. This herbal is from 1588, therefore it is quite close 
to Rumpolt.

http://imgbase-scd-ulp.u-strasbg.fr/displayimage.php?album=58&pos=283

It is in the section Von den Namen ... in the last line. >>>

Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2009 20:52:39 +0000 (GMT)
From: emilio szabo <emilio_szabo at yahoo.it>
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org,
	foodmanuscriptproject at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Herbals

The Biodiversity Heritage Library offers several old herbals for online reading and download.

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org

The easiest way to get to the titles is to chose the option "year". From 1487 onwards, there are herbals by Bock, Brunfels, Clusius, Dodoens, De Lobel, Lyte,  and others.

Some of them are pertinent not only to medicine and botanics, but also to culinary history.

E.

Date: Wed, 02 Sep 2009 20:34:45 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Dating John Gerarde

Terry Decker wrote:
<<< I've got both a 1633 and a 1636 publication date for that edition, so
perhaps Johnna can help settle that discrepency.

Bear>>>>

The English Short Title Catalogue  lists editions for 1597, 1633, and 1636.

Gerard, John, 1545-1612.     The herball or Generall historie of plantes.
Imprinted at London : by [Edm. Bollifant for [Bonham Norton and] Iohn 
Norton, 1597.

Gerard, John, 1545-1612.     The herball or Generall historie of 
plantes. Gathered by Iohn Gerarde of London.
London : Printed by Adam Islip Ioice Norton and Richard Whitakers, anno 
1633.
[There's the 2008 Gerard's Herbal: Selections from the 1633 Enlarged and 
Amended Edition.]

Gerard, John, 1545-1612.     The herball or Generall historie of plantes.
London : printed by Adam Islip, Joice Norton, and Richard Whitakers, 
anno 1636
[A 303 page "distilled by Marcus Woodward from the edition of Th. Johnson, 1636" edition under the title  Gerard's Herball  was published in 1985.]

A catalogue of plants cultivated in the garden of John Gerard, in the 
years ...
By John Gerard, Benjamin Daydon Jackson(1876 edition) is up in full 
text on Google Books.

There are a number of editions based on the Herball of course in 
addition to those mentioned here.
I have the hardbound Dover which is The Herbal or General History of 
Plants (Deluxe Clothbound Edition) (Hardcover)on the shelf.
It's also up on EEBO and EEBO-TCP for those with academic connections.

Hope this helps,

Johnna

Date: Fri, 15 Jan 2010 16:39:38 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Women and Herbal Texts

Medical Authority and Englishwomen's Herbal Texts, 1550?1650 is a new  
book Ashgate is publishing.
The author is Rebecca Laroche.
http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&pageSubject=0&calcTitle=1&title_id=9311&edition_id=11741

The first chapter is available at the Ashgate site. It's slightly  
discounted if you buy it directly from Ashgate.

Johnnae

Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 06:33:24 -0500
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Gerard's Herbal on the web!

I finally had time to look at it this am.
The edition seems to be incomplete.
There's a gap between frame 1011243 Page 940
and frame  1011244 Page [1013].

(This same edition is up on EEBO for those that have access and can  
even be used through EEBO-TCP.)

Cindy Renfrow did of course prepare her very helpful
Culinary gleanings from John Gerard's Herball or General Historie of  
Plantes.
It's still available at:

http://www.thousandeggs.com/gerardp1.html
---
The cataloguing for this volume in Missouri is linked to a  
Biodiversity Library that offers among other things 25 herbals
online

http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/subject/Herbals

Johnnae

On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Raphaella DiContini wrote:
<<< Gerard's Text (as an example) is at: http://www.botanicus.org/title/b12080329
You can even download it. Shouldn't
take too long either since it is only a 177mb PDF file! X_x "

Raffaella >>>

Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:08:44 +0100
From: "Susanne Mayer" <susanne.mayer5 at chello.at>
To: <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] herbals

http://www.kraeuter.ch/

KR?UTERBUCH VON
JACOBUS THEODORUS "TABERNAEMONTANUS" ANNO 1625

My favorite in readable form with the botanical names and old notations side by side, some have not been identified yet.

another one I love to use:

the Titus projekt site of the Konrad of Megenberg book:

http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/germ/mhd/konrmeg/konrmt.htm

and from Herbals to gardens:
http://www.biozac.de/biozac/capvil/karl_f.htm

the capitular garden of Charles the Great in AAchen

Regards Katharina

Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 09:27:07 -0400
From: Garth Groff <ggg9y at virginia.edu>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org, isenfir at virginia.edu
Subject: [MR] New Book: Henry of Huntingdon's Herbal

Just arrived at UVA's Alderman Library: ANGLICANUS ORTUS: A VERSE HERBAL 
OF THE TWELFTH CENTURY by Henry of Huntingdon, edited and translated by 
Winston Black (ISBN 9781851242849; our call number QK41 .H46 2012). A 
verse herbal? Why not? Lots of medieval works were in verse, and anyway, 
when it is translated (from the Latin), the English text comes out in 
blank verse. My experience with herbals is small (mainly Culpeper's, and 
that was years ago). I wouldn't want to try these concoctions, but 
reading about them can be very interesting. This work presents a clear 
English text opposite the original Latin. It is backed by a huge 
commentary, which explains any obscure terms, as well as other 
interesting tid-bits about how and why that particular plant was used. 
There is an extensive bibliography, and FOUR indexes, all mostly in 
Latin. If you want to look up a plant under a common name (I chose mint, 
thinking it would be easy), you have to know the Latin name. However, 
the table of contents gives both the Latin and English names of the 
plants, though not in alphabetical order. Sorry, but there are no 
illustrations. Whether this book is useful as an herbal today, I cannot 
say. As a historical text, and especially in English translation, it my 
prove of great interest to Scadian students of herbalism, and to those 
who dabble in 12th century literature.

Lord Mungo Napier, That Crazy Scot
(aka Garth Groff, UVA Library Cataloging & Metadata Services Dept.)

From the fb "SCA Cooks" section:

Robin Nicole is looking for book recommendations.
April 18 at 3:10 AM
Hello cooks! I'm looking for a copy of Ram's Little Dodoen. Might you have one you could pass along?

Johnna Holloway 
The 1606 edition is https://archive.org/details/b30334809/page/n6

Ram's little Dodeon. A briefe epitomie of the new Herbal or history of plants. Wherein is contayned the diposition and true declaration of the phisike helpes of all sortes of herbes and plants, under their names and operations, not onley of those...
ARCHIVE.ORG
Ram's little Dodeon. A briefe epitomie of the new Herbal or history of…

Stefan Li Rous  
So, what is this? What is in it? I don't think I've heard of this book before. Okay, so an herbal, not a cookbook. But who wrote it and is it of use for SCA stuff. 

Johnna Holloway  
Described here: 
https://collation.folger.edu/2018/03/small-format-herbals/ 

Folger STC 6988 is a case in point. It is a copy of Rams little Dodeon [sic]: A briefe epitome of the new herbal, or history of plants, published in London in 1606 by William Ram. The text is an abridged version of Henry Lyte’s popular A new herball, or historie of plants (1578). It was a sound sales tactic: Lyte’s English translation of Rembert Dodoens’ 1554 Cruydeboeck had already seen four editions in as many decades, while Dodoens’ herbal would continue to be a seminal text for botanists for at least another century. But whereas Lyte’s thick quarto was, like Dodoens’ Old Flemish original, an unwieldy reference for the typical herbalist (who in seventeenth-century England was more likely to be an unlicensed practitioner than an certified doctor or academic scholar), Ram claimed that his “briefe and short Epitome” is a “very samll [sic] volume) So as where the geat [sic] booke at large is not to be had, but at a great price, which can[n]ot be procured by the poorer sort, my endeuor herein hath bin chiefly, to make the benefit of so good, necessary, and profitable a worke, to be brought within the reach and compass aswell of you my poore Countrymen & women, whose liues, healths, ease and welfare is to be regarded with the rest, at a smaller price, then the greater Volume is” (A2r).

<the end>