rose-water-msg - 5/15/10

Where to buy. How to make. Rose-water uses.

NOTE: See also the files: roses-art, seeds-msg, Roses-a-Sugar-art, infusions-msg, rose-oil-msg, rose-syrup-msg.

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From: katarndt at aol.com (KatArndt)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 11 Mar 1997 23:47:56 GMT

I have a recipe for Roes water used as an herbal face astringent that uses
1 cup rose petals for every 2 cups boiling water. Steep until cool and
strain. For Astringent you add 1/4 cup Rubbing Alcohol but I just leave
that out if I'm using it for cooking. Make sure the rose petals are not
sprayed with herbacides or pesticides!!!!

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 12 Mar 1997 01:59:49 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Erayna L. Jackson (eraynaj at dolphin.upenn.edu) wrote:
: Forgive my ignorance but several times I have seen rosewater as an 
: ingredient in Medieval recipes.  Is this actually made from roses steeped 
: in water or something just called rosewater?  If anyone can direct me as 
: to where to buy it or how to make it, I would be eternally grateful.

Rosewater is distilled from water and rose petals -- it's basically water
that smells strongly of roses. (People unused to this aroma in food often
complain that it makes the food "taste like soap", since that's the
product they're used to associating the smell with.) If you don't live in
an area where your local grocery chain carries the stuff (it's variously
filed under drink mixers, baking ingredients, and 'ethnic' foods in the
places I find it) you might look in your yellow pages for a middle-eastern
specialty grocery. Such a place would be certain to carry it.

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: david.razler at worldnet.att.net (David M. Razler)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 02:31:24 GMT
Organization: AT&T WorldNet Services

hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones) wrote:
| If you don't live in
| an area where your local grocery chain carries the stuff (it's variously
| filed under drink mixers, baking ingredients, and 'ethnic' foods in the
| places I find it) you might look in your yellow pages for a middle-eastern
| specialty grocery. Such a place would be certain to carry it.
| 
| Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

Oft times right next to the orange blossom water, which is the same kind of
product distilled from different flowers and providing a different perfume for
your food.

Note: in both cases, perfume your food is what you are doing - while taste is
75% smell, the odor of the flower waters is, at least to the modern American
sense of taste, regarded as a non-flavor element. Some folks like it. YMMV.

                        Aleksandr
David M. Razler
david.razler at worldnet.att.net

From: dickeney at access4.digex.net (Dick Eney)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 12 Mar 1997 21:29:00 -0500
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

David M. Razler <david.razler at worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>Oft times right next to the orange blossom water, which is the same kind of
>product distilled from different flowers and providing a different perfume for
>your food.

It is also often available in specialty cooking stores, the kind with
the imported baking pans and just a few shelves of imported gourmet
specialties.  Williams-Sonoma chain I'm pretty sure carries it and IIRC
they also do mail-order.

=Tamar the Gypsy (sharing account dickeney at access.digex.net)

From: ag60046004 at aol.com (Ag60046004)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 13 Mar 1997 12:01:35 GMT

Greetings, Rayne!

While I don't have a period recipe for rosewater, I've found a
non-measured recipe for it
in "The Complete Soapmaker", a book by Norma Coney (Sterling Publishing
Co., NY, published 1996).  On page 62, it reads as follows:

"Method for Making Rose Water

"To prepare rose water, first gather fresh rose blossoms; do this during
the morning, after the dew [h]as evaporated.  Place the petals in a glass,
stainless steel, or enamel saucepan and cover them with distilled water. 
Weigh the floating petals down with a heat-resistant glass dish."

"Pleace the pan over low heat and allow the pot to release steam for at
least an hour.  You should begin to see drops of rose oil floating on the
surface of the water.  Do not allow the water to boil."

"When the water has taken on a rosy hue, feels thick and soft, and shows
evidence of rose oil on its surface, strain the liquid through a tea
strainer, using your fingers to press all the liquid from the petals. 
Store in refrigerator.  (Note that rose water may be used as a skin toner;
apply to the face with a cotton ball)."

Further on the same page, the author adds, "(Freshly prepared rose water
made from red roses will do a good job of coloring [the] soap, so you may
wish to leave out the extra dye.)"

At this time, I'd like to point out several ideas of my own, for
consideration only if you'd like to try your hand at making your own rose
water.

Consider using only enough distilled water to cover the rose petals. 
Otherwise, the solution becomes more dilute.  Please remember to use only
the petals, not the sepals, stamens, or green foliated bracket holding the
petals in their grouping.

Given the instructions of the book's author, I'd assume she uses fresh
petals only.  You could consider experimenting with dried rose petals,
(not potpourri), though they won't have near the same content of volatile
oils.

It stands to reason that the darker the rose, the darker the finished rose
water will be.

It may also stand to reason that the more fragrant the rose, and the more
volatile oils in the petals, the stronger in scent the finished rose water
will be.  The strongest-scented roses I've found are the
purple/lilac/sterling-grey-lavendar colors.  I'm growing a bush this year
to attempt some of this next year.  An American catalog, Jackson &
Perkins, sells really nice roses, and they give detailed information on
color, floriferousness, bloom period, and scent on each rose in their
catalog.

A quick note - the minute amount, maybe 2 drops, of oily substance
floating to the surface of the rose water during heating of the distilled
water is called "attar of rose", also known as "rose otto".  Given the
quantity of rose petals needed to produce even 1 or 2 drops of this
substance, it's understandable that the commercially produced attar of
rose retails at about $295.00 for 1/2 fluid oz. (last I saw in a catalog).

If you'd like to try making rosewater in a period manner, the research may
be... interesting.  However, recipes may exist in a written format late in
period, due to the high cost of perfume and the worthwhile attempt to
replicate/duplicate popular fragrances (theory/speculation only).  I would
also speculate that it might be easiest to start from the period of the
Black Death forward (again, due to the importance given "poesies" and
other fragrant concoctions which, in theory, warded off the Plague).

All told, it's probably easier to buy rosewater than to make it.  :-)

Don't confuse "rose water" with "rosewood".  Rosewood is a South American
tree, and although I enjoy the scent of its essential oil very much, it's
nothing like roses, and completely unrelated.

Last note: If you or any other reader of this post is interested in
soapmaking, I *highly*
recommend the book listed near the beginning of this post.  Very
practical, thourough, explanatory, and great illustrations & pictures! 
Lists of bibliography and suppliers are good, too.  The only drawback is
that you get great, inspirational photos, and no scent to accompany the
pictures.  :-(  Oh, darn: guess I'll just have to experiment...  :-)

Hope this information helps!

In Service,

Anneliese Grossmund
Barony of Mag Mor, Kingdom of Calontir

ag60046004 at aol.com  (no spam, please)
ILikeToSmellGoodAndSomeNiceGuysSeemToLikeMeToSmellGoodToo:-)

From: "Morgan E. Smith" <mesmith at freenet.calgary.ab.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 08:18:33 -0700
Organization: Calgary Free-Net

I have found rosewater in Middle Eastern and Indian type grocery stores.
It is really made of roses (don't ask me how, I just buy the stuff)
apparently. Don't ever try using Rose essentail oil watered down: I have
no idea what's in those but it sure ain't meant for your innards.
Morgan the Unknown

From: Eli the Bearded <usenet-tag at qz.little-neck.ny.us>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca,alt.fan.e-t-b
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 12 Mar 1997 19:32:25 GMT

When my sister wanted the stuff several years ago, she just went to
the local drug store and asked for it. I recall it was quite cheap
and came in a generic amber bottle that made it look like they filled
it up right there in the store.

>Note: in both cases, perfume your food is what you are doing - while taste is
>75% smell, the odor of the flower waters is, at least to the modern American
>sense of taste, regarded as a non-flavor element. Some folks like it. YMMV.

People keep telling me this but I have never noticed it. I have a
really bad sense of smell, so that may be part of it. And part of
why I often have very different ideas about what tastes good
compared to those around me. The rose flavored foods I have had
have been fairly bland and boring but maybe they were weakly
flavored, the violet flavored foods have been pretty good.

Elijah
------
since we are on the issue of flower flavors here

From: "Charlotte A. Gilmour" <rgbailey at aiinc.com>
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Gilmour
Date: 13 Mar 97 18:50:13 GMT

Greetings Anneliese,

I happen to know someone else who specifically needed this recipe, thank
you for posting it.

Also I wonder if anyone who chooses to make their own rosewater should also
be careful as well, that they are not using roses that have just been
dusted with insecticide, etc., since regardless, if you are using it in
food recipes/mead or using it as a scent on your skin, this could be a
concern worth noting.

I have heard you can purchase rosewater at pharmacies (haven't check yet
though) and also (as you mentioned) health food stores, went yesterday and
a fairly good size spray bottle of rosewater was only $4.95, not bad, the
ingredients listed were simply distilled water and oil of roses, certainly
reasonable though.

Most Sincerely,
Charlotte Anne Gilmour
Tearlag Anna Ghille Mhuire

From: Galen & Raven <galen at pa.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:34:21 -0500
Organization: pa dot net(tm), A service of Cumberland Technologies Int'l

The best RoseWater I found came from a place that Lady Tierza of Clan
Kyle had been ordering from.  The company is Amazon Dry Goods
                                             2218 E. 11th St.
                                             Davenport, IA 52803
They have period patterns, spices, and metal boning.  The cost of the
Rosewater (6oz) was ($9.95) and comes in a beautiful bottle.
Raven

From: alysk at ix.netcom.com(Elise Fleming )
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 23 Mar 1997 11:57:43 GMT

In <3333DFDC.55DF at pa.net> Galen & Raven <galen at pa.net> writes: 

>The best RoseWater I found came from a place that Lady Tierza of Clan
>Kyle had been ordering from.  The company is Amazon Dry Goods
>                                            2218 E. 11th St.
>                                            Davenport, IA 52803
>They have period patterns, spices, and metal boning.  The cost of the
>Rosewater (6oz) was ($9.95) and comes in a beautiful bottle.

In Cleveland and environs rosewater is available from Middle Eastern
grocery stores.  A 10 oz. bottle costs $2.50.   The bottle is not
beautiful but utililtarian. The brand name commonly available is
"Cortas", from Lebanon.  If you use rosewater for cooking you might
seek the kind without pink coloring added.  (Cortas is clear, like
water.)  Orange flower water is also available.  There is also, from
somewhere, a food-grade rose "essence" or possibly oil which is much
more concentrated.  Stores which specialize in restaurant supplies
might be able to find it.

Alys Katharine   

From: rmorrisson at aol.com (RMorrisson)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Rosewater
Date: 24 Mar 1997 17:26:41 GMT

Greetings from Myfanwy!
I used to be able to get plain rosewater from my friendly local Thrift
Drug.  It was about $2.50 a pint.  I say used to, because apparently their
(and other pharmacies') source, Lilly (sp?), apparently no longer makes it. 
 
Not to knock Amazon Dry Goods, but that price someone quoted seems
exceptionally steep -- I trust that it is a REALLY nice bottle, cuz it
sounds like that what you're mostly paying for.

I now get it from a upscale grocery/deli sort of place near where I now
live ($2.69 for 3 oz) but thanks to whoever mentioned Indian/Pakistani
groceries -- there are two down in the center of town and that gives me
yet ANOTHER reason to stick my nose in them sometime (the first being
looking for edible gold leaf).

Lady Myfanwy ferch Rhiannon
mka Ruth Payes Morrisson
RMorrisson at aol.com

Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 11:58:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: margritt at mindspring.com (Margritte)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Making Rose Water

Looking through my copy of "The Medieval Home Companion", translated and
edited by Tania Bayard, I found the following instructions for making rose
water:

To make rose water without an alembic:
Take a barber's basin, stretch a kerchief over the mouth, and fasten it,
covering the basin completely, like a drum. Put your roses on the kerchief
and above them set the bottom of another basin containing hot cinders and
live coals.

Has anyone tried something similar to this? Will this give me rose water,
or an essential oil, or is there a difference? I've made rose water before
by setting rose petals in water on a sunny windowsill, but this sounds like
it would probably yield something much stronger.

Note: The manuscript used in "The Medieval Home Companion" has also been
translated as "Le Mesnagier de Paris" (The Householder of Paris), and "The
Goodman of Paris".

-Margritte

From: Tovah at hubert.rain.com (Tovah)
Date: 25 Apr 97 22:05:01 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Rose Lady

Greetings Gentle Folks!

  This is a small example of  the rose recipes I have.  I chose to first 
write the most asked for recipes, which are the Rose Beads and the Rose 
Water.
  The Rose Water is needed for some other recipes I will be writing about. 
There are several Rose Water recipes, but I will only metion the strictly 
only rose recipe.  The others call for other herbs and flowers, if you are 
interested in those also, please let me know.
   I decided to make the recipes public, instead of writing them to only the 
Folks who asked for them because there was so many who wanted the recipes. 
Though there were several of  you who asked me to send the recipes directly 
to you because of certain circumstances, I will do that also.
   Please enjoy this wonderful and versatile flower!

                          Tovah of Misty Isles 
                          Lady of North Keep 
                           a.k.a Rose-Lady

Rose Beads

   Gather the roses on a dry day (best done in the dew of the morn) and chop 
the petals finely.  Put them in a saucepan and barely cover with water.  Heat 
for about an hour but do not let the mixture boil.  Repeat this process for 
the three days and if necessary add more water.  The deep black beads made 
from rose petals are made this rich coulour by warming in a rust pan.  It is 
important never to let the mixture boil but each day to wam it to a moderate 
heat.  Make the beads by working the pulp with the fingers into balls.  When 
thoroughly well worked and fairly dry press on to a bodkin (* See note) to 
make the holes in the centres of the beads.  Until they are perfectly dry the 
beads have to be moved frequently on the bodkin or they will be difficult to 
remove without breaking them.  Held for a few moments in a warm hand these 
beads give out a pleasing fragrance.

* Note:  Most of  the recipes will ask you to use Damask roses or red roses, 
         but I have found that any modern, well scented rose will do as well.
         Instead of  using a bodkin, you can use a clothes hanger.

Rose Water

   Some do put rose water in a glass and they put roses with their dew 
thereto and they make it to boile in water, then they set it in the sune tyll 
it be readde and this water is beste.
   This recipe was from Askham's Herbal 1550

 Modern Rose Water
   Pick the best scented roses you have.  Place them in a gallon glass jar. 
Cover with water (I use distilled water that can be bought at the store in 
gallon jugs).  Set the roses and water out in the sun for about 2 weeks. 
Check to see if you get the scent you are searching for.  If it is not ready 
yet, then let it set  in the sun for another week.  When you have reached the 
desired scent, strain the flowers from the water.and place the rose scented 
water in a cool, shady area.

From: Tovah at hubert.rain.com (Tovah)
Date: 08 May 97 04:47:01 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Another Rose Recipe

  Here is a rose recipe for those who study the culinary arts of the
medieval period.  I have not as yet fully deciphered the recipe, so
please feel free to let me and the other gentles know how the cake
comes out.

                      Tovah of Misty Isles
                      Lady of North Keep
                      a.k.a The Rose Lady

--------<-< at     --------<-< at     --------<-< at     --------<-< at     --------<-< at 

To Make A Cake With Rose Water, The Way Of the Royal Princess, The
Lady Elizabeth, Daughter To King Charles The First

  Take halfe a pecke of flowre (flour), half a pinte of rose water, a
pint of ale yeast, a pint of creame. A pound an a half of butter, six
egges (leave out the whites) four pounds of currants, one half pound
of sugar, one nutmeg and a little salt.
  Work it very well and let it stand half an hour by the fire and
then work it again and then make it up and let it stand another hour
and a halfe in the oven; let not your oven be too hot.

The recipe was found in -- The Queen's Closet Opened.  By W.M. Cook to
Queen Henrietta Maria

Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 07:39:43 -0500 (CDT)
From: nweders at mail.utexas.edu (ND Wederstrandt)
Subject: SC - rosewater

        I find rosewater and orangeflower at liquor stores since they are
occaisionally used in mixed drinks.

Clare St. John

Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:08:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Schuldenfrei <schuldy at abel.MATH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: SC - rosewater

> It is also available at Trader Joe's for people who live in the West.

According to "http://www.traderjoes.com":

    "Currently, there are Trader Joe's in California, Arizona, Nevada,
    Oregon, Washington, Massachusetts, New York and Connecticut."

One of the most dangerous things that ever happened to my wallet, was the
opening of Trader Joe's.  Now they are opening one in my town.  I'm gonna
eat well (and cheaply) and go broke doing it.

	Tibor

Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 21:25:22 -0700
From: christy at lightspeed.net
Subject: SC - Re: sca-cooks V1 #215 Rosewater

The following direction for rose-water are from "Rose Recipes From 
Olden Times" by eleanour Sinclair Rohde:

To make an excellent Rose-water, let the flowers be gathered two or 
three hours after the sun-rising in very fine weather; beat them in a 
marble mortar into a paste, and leave them in the mortar soaking in 
their juice for five or six hours; then put the mass into a coarse 
canvas bag, and press out the juice to every quart of which add a 
pound of fresh Damask Roses, and let them stand in infusion for twenty 
four hours. Then put the whole into a glass alembic, lute on a head of 
receiver, and place it on sand heat. Distil at first with a gentle 
fire, which is to be encreased gradually till the drops follow each 
other as quick as possible; draw off the water as long as it continues 
to run clear, then put out the fire, and let the alembic stand till 
cold. The distilled water at first will have very little fragrancy, 
but after being exposed to the heat of the sun about eight days, in a 
bottle lightly stopped with a bit of paper, it acquires an admirable 
scent.---The Toiler of Flora.

Also:

Some do put rose water in a glass and they put roses with their dew 
thereto and they make it to boile in water, then they set it in the 
sune tyll it be readde and this water is beste.
     Also drye roses put to the nose to smell do comforte the braine 
and the harte and quencheth sprites,--Askham's Herbal 1550.

Hope this helps a bit, but I to think it would be easier to find a 
middle eastern grocery :).

Best of luck with it,
Christy

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:49:14 EDT
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Rose Petal Liqueur

mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com writes:
<< I'm sure it makes little difference in taste what roses you use. >>

This is an inaccurate statement. The roses used for flavoring are called
species roses and are totally different than the hybrid teas which most people
have in their gardens.

Hybrid teas have very little scent while species roses sometimes have an
overwhelming scent. Also teas usually bloom throughout the season while
species roses bloom all at once and are done for the year. In modern
manufacturing the leaves of the rose geranium are more oftentimes than not
used to produce "rose oil" because their scent is far more "rose-like" than
roses.

The Rosarium in Colorado is an excellent source for species roses. Some of
their varieties date back to the Roman empire.

A'aql (pronounced Ras)

Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:05:09 -0500
From: mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com (Michael F. Gunter)
Subject: Re: SC - Rose Petal Liqueur

> << I'm sure it makes little difference in taste what roses you use. >>
>
> This is an inaccurate statement. The roses used for flavoring are called
> species roses and are totally different than the hybrid teas which most people
> have in their gardens.
>
> A'aql (pronounced Ras)

Thanks, but I usually just get whatever roses they have dried. But perhaps that
is why my homemade syrup takes longer to taste right than the rose syrup I buy.
Same for the fresh petals. I just usually get "red roses" and make the syrup.

They seem to work for me.

Gunthar

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:37:57 -0400
From: Philip & Susan Troy <troy at asan.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Rose water

Seton1355 at aol.com wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how long an opened bottle of rose water will last ?
> 
> Phillipa

Specifically, no, but tightly sealed and stored in a cool place, it
should keep a couple of years. Of course, as a cook in the SCA, you'd
use it up before that. Right?  ;  )

Adamantius

Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:28:31 EDT
From: CorwynWdwd at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Rose water

Seton1355 at aol.com writes:
> Can anyone tell me how long an opened bottle of rose water will last?
>  Phillipa

If you refrigerate it, resealed, it lasts at least a year by my experience.

Corwyn

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:40:56 EDT
From: THLRenata at aol.com
Subject: Re: SC - Rose water

Mirhaxa writes:
 << If you think it's not going fast enough, put a spoonful in the bath
water. >>

 I have a beautiful glass sprinkle bottle, which I keep filled with rose
water in my ice-chest at tourneys -- just the thing for a little refreshment
on a hot day.  A splah on the wrist or neck really makes the heat tolerable.

Renata

Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:51:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Laura C Minnick <lainie at gladstone.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: SC - Rose water

On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 THLRenata at aol.com wrote:
>  I have a beautiful glass sprinkle bottle, which I keep filled with rose
> water in my ice-chest at tourneys -- just the thing for a little refreshment
> on a hot day.  A splah on the wrist or neck really makes the heat tolerable.

I keep a basin on a stand in my tourney kitchen, filled with water with a
few drops of bleach (for anti-bacterial purposes) and a shot of rosewater
to cover the bleach smell. It's good for those quick rinses while chopping
veggies, etc, and there's soap and a nail brush for real washing up. I
also put rosewater in the water when I do the handwashing thing for the
high table at feasts. A nice touch, I think.

On a similar note, I discovered a couple of years ago that Dr. Bronner's
Castile Soap is terrific for the bath water at tourneys- the peppermint or
eucalyptus are both quite refreshing on a hot day or for a fighter coming
off of the field, and the eucalyptus tends to keep the bugs away. It also
come in a rose scent if you want to keep the theme...

'Lainie (who is itching to get back to tourney season, but has to get the
pavilion done first!)
- -
Laura C. Minnick
University of Oregon
Department of English

Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:07:42 -0400
From: "Gryphon's Moon" <margritt at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SC - another - Rose water question

>I have a rose bush that has never been sprayed with insecticide.  When the
>roses come out, should I just collect the petals and but them in a jar of
>rose water?
>In the fridge?
>Do you keep adding rose petals to the same water as they bloom?
>Anybody ever make their own rose water!
>Phillipa

I make rose water every year. As you noted, it is important to use petals
that have never been sprayed with insecticide. I usually pull off several
handfulls of petals into a collander and then wash them in cold water.
Mostly, I'm trying to get rid of any stray bugs. Drop them into a sauce
pan, and just cover them with water. Heat gently on the stove. My rose bush
is a lovely deep pink shade, and the water is tinted by the petals. When
the petals (or what's left of them) turn pasty white, and the water is rose
colored, I strain the petals out of the water. I often put a new batch of
petals in to make it even stronger, but it isn't absolutely necessary. It
will keep for quite a while in the refrigerator.

- -Margritte

Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:36:29 -0400
From: Christine A Seelye-King <mermayde at juno.com>
Subject: SC - Herb Distillations

LYN M PARKINSON writes:
>I've gone and filed it 'somewhere', but what she does is put the
>petals and water in a non-reactive pan--I'll use a glass Corning wear
>one, then bring to a simmer.  In the bottom of the pan is a cup that
>holds the rose water.  You put the pan lid upside down, so the rose
>water condensing on the lid drips down the handle, falling into the
>cup.

This is similar to the method I use, which I found in a variety of herbal
books, as well as a book I have on how to live on a commune.  (Very
useful info in that one). Ok, this is a still, I use it to make herb
distillations.  It entails a 6qt enamel stock pot, a small stainless
steel mixing bowl (probably a 2 cup size), some kind of trivet on the
bottom (glass, wire, brick, etc.) to raise the level of the bowl, and a
large stainless steel mixing bowl, large enough to sit on top of the pot
and act as a lid.  Water and the herb or flower is put in the bottom of
the pot, and the trivet and the sm. bowl are put in the center.  The
large bowl sits on top, and the whole arrangement should work so that
there is room between bowls.  When heated, the steam rises, ice placed in
the top bowl aids in condensation, and the droplets run down the sides of
the lg. bowl and drop into the smaller bowl below.  We have made some
wonderful lavender water this way, in addition to eucalyptus, rosemary,
and some roots too, but I can't remember what that was just now.
Christianna

Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:42:19 EST
From: melc2newton at juno.com
Subject: SC - eggs in moonshine- close but OOP recipe

In my desire to get away from Feb. weather, I hit the gardening books
(like I do every year this time) in the library , and came up with a good
one. If you haven't seen _The Scented Garden_ by Rosemary Verey, you may
well want to. She covers roses, herbs,  shrubs, seems like every plant
that has a decent scent, including their histories, growing instructions,
and recipes.

The one that really caught my eye was "eggs in moonshine"  which she
adapted form Kirby Hall "Receipts" of about 1650.

Heat 500ml/2 cups of rosewater in a shallow saucepan and add 250g/1 cup
sugar. Boil to dissolve the sugar. Take eight eggs and separate the yolks
from the whites. Poach the yolks in the rose water syrup until they are
firm. Arrange them on a flat dish and pour the sweetened rose water over
them. Cool in the refrigerator and serve with bread and butter with
chopped lemon balm used as a garnish.

I thought that this would make a good first course, or, even better a
dish for a high tea type meal.

Beatrix
who is planning some flower gardens, but we'll see how far we get this
year! :)

Oakheart, Calontir
Springfield, Mo

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 08:11:23 -0800
From: "dragondancer" <drgndncr at uswest.net>
To: <sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu>
Subject: Re: Rosewater

In  "a kitchen witches cookbook" I found an easy recipe for rose water...it
is as follows....
Petals from two fresh roses...place petals and 1/4 inch water in a small
sauce pan..warm slowly..until the petals turn translucent...strain and use
the liquid for cooking..store in the refrigerator..
Variations....Any edible flower may be substituted for the rose petals...

Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2000 21:47:25 -0800
From: <lilinah at earthlink.net>
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Rosewater

>Thanks for letting me know Ras, I have a tiny blue bottle of rose water in my
>pnatry and would not have known that the contents would be overpowering.
>Phillipa

Depends on what brand you have.

Many French rosewaters are packaged in blue bottles, and i've never 
found them overpowering. I also use French orange flower waters in 
blue bottles with no problems. Chez Funel of Le Cannet-Cannes is one 
producer. I lived a few blocks from them - VERY old. I went in once 
and saw their beautiful copper stills (probably 19th century, and the 
building was much older. The building i lived in was 17th century - 
not much in the way of plumbing). A. Monteux of Vallauris (France) is 
another. I think the gourmet distributor Reese also uses blue 
bottles, then sticks their own silver label on. BTW, that's NOT Reese 
the peanut butter cup company. The Reese i mean sells tiny cocktail 
onions (for your Manhattans), capers, stuffed olives, etc. All i have 
mentioned are perfectly fine flower waters. One of the bottles i have 
holds 3 oz., another 4 oz. I use teaspoons of these

What i have experienced that are perfume-like are the concentrates 
from Indian and Thai markets, you only need to dab a toothpick in, 
then get a drop or two your recipe. I have used pandan, kewra, and 
jasmine. The kewra i have right now has 25cc, the pandan bottle holds 
2 oz.

Anahita Gauri al-shazhiyya bint-Karim al-hakim al-Fassi

Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 13:26:19 -0500
From: david friedman <ddfr at best.com>
Subject: Re: SC - rosewater

Over a month ago, Balthzar was asking about distilling rosewater. 
Hugh Platt's _Delights for Ladies_ (1609) has a recipe for 
distillation of herb-waters, with additional comments about different 
ways of doing rosewater. He assumes you are familiar with the basics 
of distillation. I can type some of this in at some point for anyone 
interested; Platt is also in Cariadoc's cookbook collection volume 1.

Elizabeth/Betty Cook

Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:26:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terri Spencer <taracook at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:  SC - Liqueurs

Jadwiga wrote:
> Could you list the references to rosewater made from fair water?

This is the one I was thinking of:

To draw both good Rosewater and oyle of Roses together

After you have digested your Rose leaves by the space of 3 moneths
...then distill them with fair water in a Limbeck: draw so long as you
can find any excellent smell of the Rose, then divide the fattie oyle
that fleeteth on the top of the Rosewater, and so you have both
excellent oyle of Roses, and also good Rosewater together...

From Delightes for Ladies, Sir Hugh Plat, 1609.

Temair

Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:32:39 PDT
From: "Bonne of Traquair" <oftraquair at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: SC - Rosewater

I wrote regarding more and less concentrated rosewaters:
>>if used in
>>the quantities sometimes called for in the middle ages recipes, not
>>only will you go broke, but the dish will so reek of rose scent that
>>I'd bet not many people will eat it.

Cariadoc asked:
>What medieval recipe were you thinking of that specifies the quantity

I don't know of any that specify the quantity, but sometimes the quantity is 
implied.

The recipe under discussion in another thread will serve.  I know of two 
times to wash butter: at the end of the churning process--to remove any 
remaining whey or other impurities prior to use or to salting.  And later to 
clean out the salt used to preserve the butter and get it back to a usable 
state.  You mix and mash a quantity of water into the butter, so that the 
water dissolves the salt and then clap the water back out again in order to 
get back to a buttery consistency.  If you are using rosewater as Plat 
mentions, rose scent and taste will remain behind.  IMO even if Plat is only 
using this process to flavor and not actually to clean out salt, he'd still 
intend for wash to mean wash, not sprinkle.

Other than that, I beleive others have spoken about recipes that say 'add 
rosewater' to a fairly dry mix, and then do something to the resulting paste 
or batter. A partial teaspoon of rosewater won't change the mix into a paste 
or batter, you'd need in the range of a partial cup. Not recalling specific 
instances, I'll hope someone else speaks up.

Personally, this morning I mashed a few drops of the concentrated stuff into 
a stick of butter, with a tablespoon of sugar. This is good! Had nobody done 
this before at feast? In places where the populace is more conditioned 
toward acceptance of period food it could take over from honey butter pretty 
quickly.

Bonne

Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 10:42:00 -0800
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Asabi Zainab
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org

> At 06:20 AM 12/7/2004, you wrote:
>> Also you may be getting icky rosewater. I've had really good subtle
>> rosewater and really chemical-tasting rosewater.
>
>This is quite possible. I don't care for the stuff in the little blue
> bottle, but the rosewater I got at a Lebanese grocery was vaairy naahce
> (ok- imagine silly French accent!)
>
> 'Lainie

Hey, watch where you point that accent!

The stuff in the little blue bottle is likely to be French. In 1973,
when i lived in France, in Le Cannet, i was just a few blocks from
Chez Funel, a distillery of flower waters that was several hundred
years old. Still had old copper stills in their distillery.

My first ros and orange flower waters were theirs, in lovely blue
glass bottles. At some point, i found them in the US in little
plastic squeeze bottles. Eventually i no longer found little blue
bottles labeled as being from Funel, but only marked with the name of
th American distributor. They are HIGHLY concentrated. One only
needs a drop or a few. If you have used this brand, you may be
finding it unpleasant because you are using too much.

For SCA feasts i've been using Lebanese rose and orange flower waters
- IIR, the brand name is Costas. These are MUCH MORE dilute, so i
use them by the spoonful with no complaints about soapy or chemical
taste.

Anahita

Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:13:41 -0400
From: Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
To: sca-cooks <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rose Water vs. Damask Water

Greetings!  A question was posted to our kingdom's cookery list about 
the difference between rose water and damask water.  Both are called for 
in Partridge's Treasurie of Commodious Conceits, 1591.  Since both are 
called for, there must be a difference.  Does anyone know what it would be?

The beginning of the marchpane recipe says, "TAke halfe a .li. of 
blanched Almons, & of white sugre: a quarter of a .lb.: of Rosewater,
halfe an ounce: & of Damaske water, asmuche. Beate the Almons with a 
little of the same water, and grinde them til thei be smal: let them on 
a few coles of fier, til thei wax thick: then beate them agayne with the 
Sugre, fine: Then mixt the sweet waters and them together: and so gather 
the, & fashion your Marchpane..."

Thanks for any clues you might give.  I couldn't find anything on the 
Internet that gave a hint.

Alys K.

Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 15:50:54 -0400
From: Gretchen Beck <grm at andrew.cmu.edu>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rose Water vs. Damask Water

--On Sunday, May 09, 2010 3:13 PM -0400 Elise Fleming <alysk at ix.netcom.com>
wrote:
<<< A question was posted to our kingdom's cookery list about the
difference between rose water and damask water.  Both are called for in
Partridge's Treasurie of Commodious Conceits, 1591.  Since both are
called for, there must be a difference.  Does anyone know what it would
be? >>>

I always thought that damask water was distilled from damask roses, while
rose water was distilled from any decent roses you happened to have.  FWIW,
the OED says damask water is rose water distilled from damask roses.  The
analogy that comes to mind is "scoth" and ""Laphroaig" -- both scotch, but
one has a flavor specific to itself due to its brewing and origin.

toodles, margaret

Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:04:40 -0700
From: Patricia Dunham <chimene at ravensgard.org>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rose Water vs. Damask Water

Well, since Partridge's gives a couple of recipes 
for making Damaske water (#59 & 60), but none for 
making rose water, I would personally suspect 
that he's talking about two different qualities 
of rose-water.  The plain stuff, that everybody 
knew how to make at home, and something more 
special (the Damaske).

Or maybe... since many of the things I'm finding 
on-line say that rose-water was invented by 
Islamic alchemists in period, maybe the generic 
"rose water" was the fancy imported stuff, and 
"Damaske" water would be a home-made specialty, 
using the imported stuff as a base, and adding 
more of a specific type of local rose, to get a 
stronger or more definite scent.

Over the past 25+ years, we have grown Gallicas, 
Damasks, Eglantine, Musk, R foetida and Albas and 
they all had individual scents.  (Boy, do we need 
to update the webpages, 8-)!

FYI, here's #59: To make Damaske water
Take Damaske Roses, and red Roses, of each a 
handfull, let them drie foure houres in the 
shadow: then take two drams of Laudanum, Nigellae 
Roman?, two penny-worth, Iries halfe an ounce, 
Storax two drams, Cloves an ounce, Benjamin, 
Calamus aromaticus,, Nutmegs, of each halfe an 
ounce, Marjoram, Bazell, of each halfe a 
handfull: bruise the spice, and put it in 
Malmesey, or the lees thereof, the space of four 
dayes: then distill it and scum it fourteen dayes.

chimene

Date: Sun, 9 May 2010 13:30:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Huette von Ahrens <ahrenshav at yahoo.com>
To: Order of the Laurel - Restricted Access
	<sca-laurels at lists.ansteorra.org>
Cc: SCA Cooks <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [SCA-Laurels] rose water vs. damask water

I have been doing some research on this and some of what has been said is true, in that damask water and rose water are very much alike.  Having consulted Gernot Katzer's Spice Pages, he seems to feel that there is a slight difference between the two, in that the damask rose has more fragrance and other chemicals than the regular garden rose. 

If your friend were willing to do some searching and spend some money, it occured to me that one could substitute damask water with rose attar.  Attar of rose is much stronger that rose water.  However, because it is a major component of perfumes, finding an attar that is food grade might be difficult and somewhat costly.  Attar intended for perfumes are not food grade.

One could also compare an American rose water with a Middle Eastern or Indian made rose water, since damask roses are native to the Middle East.

I remember a previous discussion on this recipe on the SCA Cooks list where the concensus was to just double the amount of rose water, rather than spend the time and effort to deal with the damask water.

If one had access to a goodly amount of true damask roses, one could try to create damask water, probably doubling the amount of petals that a rose water recipe required.  But the problem is that true damask roses are hard to find in the US.  David Austin's English roses are not pure damask roses, although they probably would be better than anything else.  Just make sure that they have not been subjected to insecticides or you will poison anyone who eats your marchpane.

Huette
Caid

<<< On 5/9/2010 3:19 PM, Pat Pierce wrote:
Hm, I can only address this one from a gardener's
perspective....unfortunately, not a culinary perspective.

There are LOTS of roses out there. Even in the
Middle Ages, there were LOTS of roses out there. Some
varieties are more known for their smell, or their making of
those fruity rose hips, or for sturdiness in different kinds
of weather. For example, the Eglantine Roses which
bloom only once a year, make up some incredibly dense,
thorny hedges - that get covered with lovely blooms at the
right time of year, teeny things but the foliage smells like
fresh tea. You could make rose water from their
flowers, but sadly, it would smell more like - well, tea -
than what we imagine as "rose smell."

The Damask Roses, on the other hand, bloom usually
once a year in late spring to early summer, and are known
for loose, full petals and sometimes really BIG quantities
of these, - and the heady smell folks imagine when they talk
about "smelling of roses." The Romans had them,
too. And they are still grown in profusion on large
farms in Europe (I understand Bulgaria has thousands of
acres of this crop) specifically to harvest the petals for
making rose oil, rose water, and all kinds of other rose
stuff.

So, I could conjecture that Damask Water would come
specifically from Damask Roses - and that while every Damask
Water is also a Rose Water, every Rose Water would not
necessarily be a Damask Water.

Clear as earth?? Hope this helps!
Aeruin ni hEarain O'chonemara
Meridies
who has a collection of Old Roses in her yard, that
are just now starting to bloom nicely....
_______________________________________________
SCA-Laurels mailing list
>>>

Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 20:08:54 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Difference between rosewater and damask
	water?

To start, you may want the earliest version of this Partridge text
which is now at medievalcookery.com.
I just sent an edited version in of the 1573 text which Doc has posted.

For those without the text at hand, the recipe begins: "TAke halfe  
a .li. of blanched Almons, & of white sugre: a quarter of a .lb.: of  
Rosewater, halfe an ounce: & of Damaske water, asmuche. "

In most instances in this work Partridge will say "moste excellent  
cast two Spoonful of Rose or Damaskwater" or
"Ladle with a little damask or Rose water' or "put ther to some pure  
rose water, or damaskwater," seemingly using them as interchangeably.

If you don't have the full text at hand, you may not have noticed that  
Partridge includes a recipe for how to make said water. His recipe:

An other manner of makyng of Damaske  water.                                      cap.xlix.
TAke of Arace or Iris, of Spike flowres dried, of Cloues, of ech .i.  
ouce, make the in
poder, put them together with a pint of new Ale in cornes, and .i.  
pynte of Rosewater, into
an earthen pot: put therto a good manye of grene Rose leaues, let them  
soke in it, a night
tyme, stoped close, in the morninge when ye wyll distyll, first lay  
other Roseleues in the
bottom of your Stilitory for fere of cleuing to, then take of the Rose  
leaues, out of the Pot,
and put them with other greene Rose leaues in your Stilitory  
sufficient, and to the water:
put Muske as aboue is sayd.  This water is excellent to set foorth a  
Tarte, an Apple moyse, or Almond butter.

So in the above recipe, we have Damaske water being distilled of  
certain spices and herbs, along with the new ale and rosewater.

----
Recipewise, it's called for extensively in the 1558  The secretes of  
the reuerende Maister Alexis of Piemount.

In the section on "odoriferous and sweete water" you find recipes like
"To make an odoriferous and sweete water, verye good.
TAke twelue pounde of Damaske rose water, Lauander water, Cloues,  
Synamom, of eche of them a dragme, Mace, great Cardamomum, Muske,  
Amber, of eche of them halfe a scruple, drie Pylles of Citrons,  
Sandalum citrinum, Ireos, of eche of them halfe a dragme, Bengewin,  
Storax calamita, of eche a scrupule, and of all this make a  
composition, the which you shall put in a vessell of glasse well  
stopped, leauinge it so by the space of fiftene daies. Afterwarde let  
it bee distilled in Bal-eo Marie, the maner whereof is described in  
the first booke, and the water that shall issue oute of it, put in a  
violle well stopt in the Sunne the space of fiftene dayes, and than  
shall you haue a water of greate excellencie."

----

Thomas Hill's 1577 The gardeners labyrinth calls for "in eyther  
damaske or muske water" in two recipes.

Likewise, William Bullein in Bulleins bulwarke of defence (1579) calls  
for "& strongly beaten with the pestell, pouring in sweete Rose, or  
Damaskewater."

------

The chapter "Of sweet Waters particularly described" in the 1616  
Maison rustique, or The countrey farme contains this recipe:

"Damaskewater: Take two handfuls and a halfe of red Roses, Rosemarie  
flowers, Lauander and Spike flowers, of each a Pugill: of the sprigges  
of Thyme, flowers of Cammomile, flowers of small Sage, of Penyryall,  
and Marierome, of each a handfull: infuse them all in white Wine the  
space of foure and twentie houres: then put them into the Stillitorie,  
sprinkling it with verie good white Wine, and scatter thereupon this  
powder following: take an ounce and a halfe of well chosen Cloues, an  
ounce of Nutmegs, of Beniouin and Styrax calami-a, of each two  
drammes, make  them in powder: The water that shall be distilled, must  
be kept in a vessell verie well stopped." pp 463-464

-----
Markham often calls "Damaske Rose-water" in editions of The English  
House-wife.

His 1633 recipe for "A very rare and plesant Da|mask water.
Take a quart of malmsey Lees, or a quart of malm|sey simply, one  
handfull of margerome, of Basill as much, of Lauender foure handfuls,  
bay-leaues one good handfull, Damaske rose-Leaues foure handfuls, and  
as many of red, the pils of sixe Orenges, or for want of them one  
handful of the tender Leaues of walnut-trees, of Beniamine halfe an  
ounce, of Callamus Aramaticus as much, of Camphire foure drammes, of  
Cloues one ounce, of Baldamum halfe an ounce; then take a pottle of  
running water, and put in all these spices bruised into your water and  
malmsey together in a close stopped pot, with a good handfull or  
Rosemary, and let them stand for the space of sixe dayes: then di| 
still it with a soft fire: then set it in the Sunne sixteene dayes  
with foure graines of Muske bruised. This quan|tity will make three  
quarts of water, Probatum est." pages 153-154

-----
"Damask rose water" is called for in a number of recipes found in The  
Queens closet opened of 1659.
It includes this recipe:

"To make excellent Perfumes.
Take a quarter of a pound of Damask Rose-buds cut clean from the  
Whites, stamp them very small, put to them a good spoonful of Damask  
Rose-water, so let them stand close stopped all night, then take one  
ounce and a quarter of Benjamin finely beaten, and also searsed, (if  
you will) twenty grains of Civit, and ten grains of Musk; mingle these  
with the Roses, beating them well together, then make it up in little  
Cakes between Rose leaves, and dry them between sheets of paper."

---

Digby also calls for "Damask-Rose-water" in his Closet.

Johnnae

On May 9, 2010, at 12:36 PM, Kathy Anderson wrote:
<<< I am reconstructing a recipe for Marchpaines (Treasurie of  
Commodious Conceits, 1591) that calls for both rosewater and damask  
water. I would have thought they were the same thing, since Damascus  
is a major category of roses.

Has anyone else run into this? Are rosewater and damask water the  
same, or different?

Wulfwen/Kathy : ) >>>

Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 20:17:16 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] [SCA_Subtleties] US Mention was Difference
	between rosewater and damask water?

Another thought on damask water

Robin M. Mower "Rose Water"  The Oxford Encyclopedia of Food and Drink  
in America. Ed. Gordon Campbell. Oxford University Press, 2003.    10  
May 2010

"Rose Water   "Introduced to Europe from Arab cuisine by the Crusaders  
in such dishes as marzipan and Turkish delight, rose water is the  
distillate of rose petals, most famously from the damask rose.  
Substitutes for the distillate have been made by adding attar of rose,  
which is the oil extracted from crushed roses, to water.
Colonial Americans used rose water as a flavoring, similar in purpose  
to the later-introduced vanilla, in confectionery and dessert recipes  
inherited from Europe and in syrups used to flavor beverages. Rose  
water also flavored savories, such as chicken pies and creamed  
spinach. Some housewives, even as late as the 1880s, distilled their  
own. Others purchased it, perhaps as "Double Distilled Damask Rose  
Water" from the Shakers, a religious sect respected for the quality  
and purity of their products and for their rose water apple pie."

---
This seems to indicate that in the USA it has long been sold as just a  
type of rosewater.

Johnnae

Date: Sun, 09 May 2010 20:18:58 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: SCA_Subtleties at yahoogroups.com,	Cooks within the SCA
	<sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OED on damask water?

As to definitions since I am prowling about on the professional  
databases:

OED states:
damask rose, a species or variety of rose, supposed to have been  
originally brought from Damascus.

Apparently, originally the Rosa gallica var. damascena, a tall shrub  
with semi-double pink or light-red (rarely white) flowers, cultivated  
in the East for attar of roses; but this underwent many changes under  
cultivation in the West, and the name has been very variously applied  
by English authors. ....the name is now applied at Mitcham to a  
variety of R. gallica with very deep-coloured flowers.

C. 1540 Recipe in Vicary's Anat. (1886) App. 224 Putt therto half an  
vnce of fyne pouldre of redde dammaske rosys.

1578 Lyte Dodoens vi. i. 655 We cal them in English, Roses of  
Prouince, and Damaske Roses.

1578 Lyte Dodoens 654 The flowers..be neither redde nor white, but of  
a mixt colour betwixt red and white, almost carnation colour.

1582 Hakluyt Memoranda in Voy. II. i. 165 The Damaske rose [brought  
in] by Doctour Linaker, King Henry the seuenth and King Henry the  
eights Physician.
damask water, rose-water distilled from Damask roses. Obs.

1306 N. de Tingewick in Arch?ol. Jrnl; XIV. 271 Item pro aqua rosata  
de Damasco.

1519 Four Elements in Hazl. Dodsley I. 44 With damask water made so  
well, That all the house thereof shall smell, As it were paradise.

1555 Eden Decades 224 The Capitayne sprinkeled the Kynges with damaske  
water.

1611 Cotgr. s.v. Damas, Eau de Damas, Damaske, or sweet, water  
(distilled from all sorts of odoriferous hearbs).
-----
Hope this helps

Johnnae 

<the end>