nuns-msg - 3/19/08 Nuns in period. References. NOTE: See also the files: monks-msg, religion-msg, heretics-msg, popes-msg, relics-msg, rosaries-msg, p-bibles-msg, icons-msg. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ From: Gil Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Orders of nuns in pre-reformation Germany Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 20:00:06 -0600 Christopher Handisides wrote: > This is one of those wonderfully wierd subjects where I haven't a clue > where to start (especially since I won't have access to my trusty > university library for a couple of months still). My wife [for her > persona] wants to have a background that includes some time spent in a > convent in/around southern Germany, circa 1510-1520. Has anyone out there > happened to have done any research on this subject? I'll take any leads > that I can find at the moment. She's especially interested in any orders > that might have been relatively "friendly" to members with a scholastic > bent, or have been possessed of an order-wide scholasticism. > > --Chris (aka Lazarus der Jaeger) Here are three to get you started: Hirsauer-Prägung in Neresheim, founded in 1106. St. Martin in Beuron, founded in 777. and Benediktbeuern in Benediktbeuern, Bavaria, founded in 739. All three are Benedictine Convents. You can go to the OSB main webpage to find more Convents of Beneditines in Germany. http://www.osb.org/osb/ Caichear mac Giolla Muire Shire of Gryphon's Lair, Artemisia From: dorothy stuhr Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: nuns Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 04:22:38 GMT >Where would I start in trying to find info on Irish nuns. I have heard >about the monks, but were there nuns also? What did they wear? what did >they do ( spin, weave etc.)what time period? Thanks, Thea Well, I've awnsered some of my own questions, this is an interesting site; http://www.millersv.edu/~english/homepage/duncan/medfem/religion.html Thea Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:03:20 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E. SNSpies at aol.com writes: << would like to ask if anyone has pictures/information or knows where I might look for pictures/informatio about pre-Carolingian >> Try the book: SISTERS IN ARMS by Jo Ann Kay McNamara Harvard University Press 1996 There are no pictures but there may well be discriptive information about clothing. Phillipa Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:16:58 -0500 From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman) To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Cc: h-costume at indra.com, h-needlework at ansteorra.org Subject: Re: Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E. Nancy/Ingvild asked: >I would like to ask if anyone has pictures/information or knows where I might >look for pictures/informatio about pre-Carolingian (i.e. Merovingian, 5th-8th >century C.E.) Frankish clothing worn by nuns. See the sources (particularly the two books) by LaPorte cited in my textile bibliography: http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/textilebiblio.html LaPorte's work with the Merovingian textile relics at Chelles includes some related information about the clothing habits of the (often highly ranked) nuns of the period. You'll also find an extant "grande robe," tunics, and tablet-woven trim woven by some of the abbesses there. Carolyn Priest-Dorman =DE=F3ra Sharptooth capriest at cs. vassar. edu Frostahlid, Austmork Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 13:59:45 -0600 (CST) From: Lorine S Horvath To: H-Needlework at Ansteorra.ORG Cc: h-costume at indra.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E. According to "Dress in Anglo-Saxon England" by Gale R. Owen-Crocker (Manchester University Press, 1986) pg. 87. "There seems to have been no uniformity about dress for early Anglo-Saxon nuns and many sisters seem to have been far less ascetic than St. Etheldreda, failing to appreciate that unworldly dress should have been a feature of convent life" ... "Bede records that the nuns of Coldingham in Northumbria wove and wore elaborate garments, adorning themselves like brides." It looks like in this time Anglo-Saxon nuns were dressing at the height of fashion. Fiona nicAoidh Date: Sat, 18 Dec 1999 08:44:52 -0000 From: "Melanie Wilson" To: Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E. >Oh goodie, Lorine, at least that would make some interesting garb! Unfortunately, I'm not sure that we can extrapolate from Anglo-Saxon England to the Merovingians Although you can't, the excessive dress of nuns is mentioned in mant texts around this time, continental as well! Sorry no idea where I saw it now though :( Mel Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 18:58:37 -0500 (EST) From: Grace Morris To: ysca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Cc: H-Needlework at Ansteorra.ORG, h-costume at indra.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: HNW - Nun's clothing, 5th-8th c. C.E. Several years ago I was invited to join a company of sisters as they attended a Shrine full of relics at an event. I didn't want just the average "penguin" outfit (no offense intended), but wanted something more unusual, and even outrageous, as that is my style. I "interlibrary-loaned" I don't know HOW many books, including one in French with hand-tinted illustrations and real bookworm holes. At the time I was working on a class entitled "Music in the Cloister", so I searched in all of those, also, including Sisters in Arms. After all this, I came away disappointed. The first great period in the founding of cloisters for women seems to have been the 8th-12th century. (For lots of information, and really juicy stories, about Carolingian houses, see "Women Under Monasticism: Chapters in Saint-Lore and Convent Life between A.D. 500 and A.D. 1500" by Lena Eckenstein. Cambridge University Press.) My collected impression was that even in the early part of this period, there was little uniformity of dress, the emphasis upon simplicity and modesty; visual evidence shows mostly black, white, brown, beige, etc.. Veils, of course, but in the early years I never saw any of the stiff support under the veil, merely soft draping around the face, neck, and head. Accounts that tell of the abuses, usually of the abbesses, relate how they used gold tiring pins, silks with trains, carried little pet dogs, etc.. In other words, they were dressing in the fashion of the times in which they lived. In short, if I was to be a truly outrageous nun, you wouldn't know me from anyone else in the SCA... There is a happy ending. Sometime after the event, I happened upon a painting of the wall of a 12th/13th(?) century Swedish church, showing a nun in what at first seemed to be your run-of-the-mill penguin suit. Closer inspection revealed a large (4-5 inch) white stripe down the middle of her black veil. Christened the "skunk nun", and armed with my personal reliquary for/of St. Dogma, I am now prepared to take my place among my sisters. A few other sources about nuns: Carr, Annemarie Weyl. "Women and Monasticism in Byzantium: Introducton from an Art Historian." Byzantinische Forchungen 9 (1985) 1-15 Johnson, Penelpe D.. Equal in Monastic Profession: Religious Women in Medieval France. (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1991) Monson, C.A., ed. The Crannied Wall: Women, Religion, and the Arts in Early Modern Europe. (Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 1992) Power, Eileen. Medieval English Nunneries, c. 1275-1535. (1922; reprint ed., NY: Biblio & Tannen, 1964) Ranft, Patricia. Women and the Religious Life in Premodern Europe. (NY: St. Marin's Press, 1996) Wemple, Suzanne Fonay. Women in Frankish Society: Marriage and the Cloister 500-900. (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1981) (Sisters in Arms has already been cited....) In Service, Jessamyn di Piemonte, Atlantia Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 13:27:45 ESTFrom: To: h-costume at indra.com, sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.eduSubject: Merovingian nuns I've done a bit more research and have discovered that yes, indeed,Merovingian nuns did wear some kind of specific clothing other than theirregular secular garb.In Gregory of Tours (6th century), he tells of Ingitrude whose husband cameto remove her from a sacred place. "She was in the habit of a nun, anddeclared that she was vowed to penitence; she therefore refused to go withhim."In Caesarius of Arles' "Rule for Nuns" (6th century), part of Rule 5 statesthat "even those who enter the religious life as virgins, if they do notfulfill this condition [of giving up all possessions], either shall not bereceived or shall not be permitted to put on the clothing of religion ..."Rule 44 of the same "Rule for Nuns" says, "Let them have all their clothingonly in a simple and respectable color, never black, never bright white, butonly natural or milky-white; let it be made in the monastery by the industryof the prioress and the care of the wool-mistress ...Nancy Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) From: Grace Morris To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns On Tue, 21 Dec 1999 SNSpies at aol.com wrote: > I've done a bit more research and have discovered that yes, indeed, > Merovingian nuns did wear some kind of specific clothing other than their > regular secular garb. > Nancy This is great to know! After what I found, it seemed to me that, mostly, the dress probably varied from abbey to abbey. I always got the impression that, living together, a general concensus would have been made as to dress. When you read about all the French and especially German princess who founded abbeys, it is pretty clear that they made a lot of their own rules, especially in the beginning. Eckenstein has fabulous stories of their independence, including armed nuns barricading themselves in a chapel... So, it's nice to know that , even this early, there WERE rules, event if they weren't always followed. (But then, what else is new?) Of course, if we REALLY want to complicate things, different abbeys followed different Rules (Benedictine, Briggitine, although many of these are based on the same original set)...but this is more information than I care to delve into.. Jessamyn Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:08:37 -0500 (EST) From: Grace Morris To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns Just re-read my own post... All of this pertains to early in period. Dress most definitly was "regularized" later into our period... Jessmayn Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 10:14:46 -0500 From: Hank Harwell To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: Merovingian nuns On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Grace Morris writes: >Of course, if we REALLY want to complicate things, different abbeys >followed different Rules (Benedictine, Briggitine, although many of >these are based on the same original set)...but this is more >information than I care to delve into.. Well, it's really not that complicated... Caesarius of Arles (previously mentioned) is one of the founders of the early monastic rules (which included nuns) Benedict of Nursia established a rule (the Benedictine Rule) for monks which was adapted for use by nuns. His rule was based on the writings of the Deset Fathers, and especially John Cassian. Nearly all monastic rules are derived from the writings of these sources. Now, early Irish monastic rules are another animal somewhat.... Brother Cleireac of Inisliath Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 13:34:44 -0600 (CST) From: "Pixel, Queen of Cats" To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: the Holy rule On Wed, 22 Dec 1999 Seton1355 at aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have information or a website that would list the different rules > of the different orders? > Phillipa The page www.newadvent.org is a Catholic site with the Catholic Encyclopedia on it. It has some useful information about the various orders and rules, at least the little I've looked at. Margaret FitzWilliam of Kent College of Tor Aerie Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1999 17:38:35 -0500 From: "Kate/Constance" To: Subject: RE: the Holy rule Rule of St. Benedict http://www.osb.org/rb/ This rule, written around 530, became dominant in the 8th century. Most monasteries followed this rule, although there were often some modifications. The Cluniac and Carthusian monastic movements both used the Benedictine rule--so did the monasteries they were trying to reform. Rule of St. Augustine http://www.domcentral.org/trad/rule.htm This rule of life was used by a number of groups in the Middle Ages. St. Dominic adopted it as the rule for the Dominicans, and in the 13th century (don't have the exact date off the top of my head) a number of independent hermits and small monasteries were consolidated under the same rule to form the Order of St. Augustine. The Benedictine and Augustinian rules were also used for women's monasteries, although they were often modified. The Benedictine site has some of these modified versions of the Benedictine rule from the Middle Ages. Regula Bullata of St. Francis (1223) http://ofm.org/1/info/Rule.html This is the rule that was approved by the Pope for the Franciscan order. There are two earlier rules; the rule of 1210 has been lost and the rule of 1221 was not approved by the Pope; it was replaced with this version, which is still in force. St. Clare of Assisi wanted to develop a women's order like the Franciscans, who went into the world instead of staying in cloistered monasteries. However, she wasn't able to get approval for an order of religious women who were "in the world," and so the "Poor Clares" became a cloistered order. I wasn't able to find a Web page with the Rule of St. Clare on it. Alan Fairfax Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 09:24:36 -0500 (EST) From: Grace Morris To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: was Merovingian/now Swedish nuns For anyone following this who likes the "strange and unusual" I found my picture of the "skunk nuns". The picture is entitled "The Translation of St. Birgitta from Rome to Vadstena" and is a fresco or ceiling painting (not clear) for the Village Church of Tensta, Uppland. The date is 1437 (later than I remembered) so it is possible that the dress was regularized before then. I have a xerox, but I believe that it was black and white in the book. The veil is black (?) with either a white lining or a white veil underneath; the stripe is more like 3-4 inches. Also worn is a black cloak lined in white, and a darker than white (beige? gray?) gown underneath. Oh, and a white veil around the neck and face. If you like things Scandinavian, but POST VIKING (a period usually neglected in the SCA!) this is a good source: Kusch, Eugen. "Ancient Art in Scandinavia". Nurnberg: Hans Carl, 1964 also look at: Royal Swedish Academy of Letters, History, and Antiquities. " Medieval Wooden Sculpture in Sweden". Stockholm: Almquits and Wiskell, 1964 Jessamyn Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 16:20:21 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: the Holy rule Thanks for the message, Fairfax. << Unfortunately I didn't find any reference to surviving copies of women's monastic rules from this period. >> The only one that would apply that I have found are the Rules of Caesarius of Arles, and I know from the literature that nuns did adopt this set of rules, so perhaps I shall stick with this one. At least they mention colors! Nancy Date: Thu, 23 Dec 1999 23:04:30 EST From: To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu Subject: Re: the Holy rule Fairfax writes: << That makes sense...on theother hand, it seems pretty clear that you shouldn't be limited to a color. The prevailing ethic for early monasticism seems to be that you shouldn make your clothing simple and unobtrusive... it's only later that the idea of special habits tends to take hold. >> Ah, but the Rules for Nuns of Caesarius of Arles (6th century C.E.) specifically states that the "habits" should be specific colors -- "only natural or milky-white", so I'm not really sure why you would say that someone trying to reproduce this attire shouldn't be limited to a color. Perhaps the rule was not strictly enforced, and of course there were other rules in effect. What I'm saying is that, at the moment, the only evidence I have for any specific coloring of 6th century Merovingian nuns' habits is this natural or milky-white stricture. I would be delighted to learn of other color choices! And as for just making your clothing simple and unobtrusive, yes, that is correct. However, the 6th century Benedictine Rules (for monks) also state exactly what a monk wore -- tunic, cowl, scapular, stockings, and shoes, with trousers if they were travelling. The scapular, I believe, was not "normal" garb during this time. Again, I would be happy to learn otherwise. Nancy Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1999 09:31:37 -0500 From: "Kate/Constance" To: Subject: RE: the Holy rule }And as for just making your clothing simple and unobtrusive, yes, that is }correct. However, the 6th century Benedictine Rules (for monks) also state }exactly what a monk wore -- tunic, cowl, scapular, stockings, and shoes, }with trousers if they were travelling. The scapular, I believe, was not }"normal" garb during this time. Again, I would be happy to learn }otherwise. The 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia, which is not the most authoritative source but has the advantage of being on the Web, B-) says: In the West, in the case of St. Benedict, the scapular was at first nothing else than a working garment or apron such as was then worn by agricultural labourers. Thus, in the Rule of St. Benedict, it was expressly termed "scapulare propter opera." From this developed the special monastic garment, to which a hood could be fastened at the back. Fairfax From: "Oscagne" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 19:53:09 -0600 "oedipa" wrote: > Hello all! I'm woking on my first SCA persona and thinking about going > with a Beguine woman - but for however much information I've been able > to find (quite a bit!) I haven't seen any description of their habits! > > I realize that, given the generally autonomous nature of the Beguines, > it's very unlikely they had anything like a "standardized" habit - but > I've read several different contradictory things about their clothing > and would like to set the record straight! > > Pictures would be lovely, though I don't expect any - I'd really just > like a good description from a verifiable source. Thanks! Quick and dirty searches, so no promises that this is exactly what you need... http://mw.mcmaster.ca/scriptorium/images/3005w-Beguine.html http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~egelser/beguine.gif http://home.tiscali.nl/~t451501/ercadam/content/begijnh.htm http://www.cns.bu.edu/~satra/kaatvds/dress.htm http://www.hotels-holland.com/amsterdam-info/adam-5sightseeinghighlights.htm -- Oscagne From: "Lysebet van der Wilgen" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine Date: 16 Feb 2006 10:08:00 -0800 www.netidea.com/~mdefeo/swan.htm Here is Walburga's documentation page w/photos-- she won the Golden Swan for her Beguine persona. From: jk Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 17:43:51 -0800 "oedipa" wrote: >Hello all! I'm woking on my first SCA persona and thinking about going >with a Beguine woman - but for however much information I've been able >to find (quite a bit!) I haven't seen any description of their habits! > >I realize that, given the generally autonomous nature of the Beguines, >it's very unlikely they had anything like a "standardized" habit - but >I've read several different contradictory things about their clothing >and would like to set the record straight! > >Pictures would be lovely, though I don't expect any - I'd really just >like a good description from a verifiable source. Thanks! Well I seem to recall at least one flemish painting, with Beguines as a subject, from one of my trips to Belgium. And some where I also recall a photo graph of one of the last Beguine nuns, but that would of course be well oop. jk From: "oedipa" Newsgroups: rec.org.sca Subject: Re: Garb for a Beguine Date: 15 Feb 2006 20:08:43 -0800 Here's a quick history - http://www.arthistoryclub.com/art_history/Beguine Edited by Mark S. Harris nuns-msg Page 10 of 10