SCA-oaths-msg - 8/9/09 Swearing oaths in the SCA. Peerage and Officer oaths. NOTE: See also the files: SCA-coro-oths-msg, Bng-an-Officer-art, peerage-cerem-msg, SCA-religion-msg, SCA-royalty-msg, The-Peerage-msg, p-swears-msg, A-Bird-Bath-art. ************************************************************************ NOTICE - This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday. This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org I have done a limited amount of editing. Messages having to do with separate topics were sometimes split into different files and sometimes extraneous information was removed. For instance, the message IDs were removed to save space and remove clutter. The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I make no claims as to the accuracy of the information given by the individual authors. Please respect the time and efforts of those who have written these messages. The copyright status of these messages is unclear at this time. If information is published from these messages, please give credit to the originator(s). Thank you, Mark S. Harris AKA: THLord Stefan li Rous Stefan at florilegium.org ************************************************************************ Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 18:02:46 -0500 (EST) From: lilinah at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: SCA-Cooks Here in the West... Fealty Oath When a new King and Queen take the thrones, they swear fealty to the Kingdom and the populace. It's a standard fealty oath that's been used in the West not only since rocks were soft, but around the time of the creation of dirt. It is derived from The Lord of the Rings. Here do I swear by mouth and hands fealty and protection to the Kingdom and populace of the West; to uphold the Laws of the Kingdom, to speak and to be silent, to do and to let be, to strike and to spare, to punish and to reward in such matters as concern the Kingdom, in need or in plenty, in peace or in war, in living or in dying, until I depart from my Throne or death take me or the world end. So say I, (name). (and the Queen says: So also say I, (name).) Greater officers swear fealty to their (king&queen/prince&princess/baron&baroness) when they step up (into office) and when there's a change of royalty. The Heralds reads the oath, which differs from the above a fair bit, and at the end all say, "I so swear(or affirm)". One can choose not to if one doesn't care for the tuchus on the throne - perhaps one needs to take an urgent potty break, or perhaps one never makes it into court. Peers are asked (but not required) to swear fealty when there's a change of royalty. Some royalty call them up peerage by peerage, or sometimes as a whole group of peers. This is repeated at Principality events, in case anyone missed the kingdom event. Peerage Oath A peerage oath is what one swears when one becomes a peer (I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong). The oath for knights differs from the oath for laurels and pelicans. There is a standard ceremony and oath, but one can also use a non-standard format for the ceremony up to a certain point, when the standard oath kicks in. It ends with the oath of fealty, related to the oath the royalty swear when taking office. Here's the one for Laurels and Pelicans: Here do I swear by mouth and hand fealty and service to the Crown and Kingdom of the West; to speak and to be silent, to come and to go, to strike and to spare, to do and to let be in matters as concern the Kingdom on my honor and the lawful commands of the Crown in need or in plenty, in peace or in war in living or in dying from this hour henceforth until the King depart from His Throne or death take me, or the world end. so say I, (name). The Ceremony Books for the Kingdom of the West and its three remaining Principalities are on-line at http://heralds.westkingdom.org/ under Court Heraldry. -- Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM) the persona formerly known as Anahita Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:23:58 +1300 From: Antonia Calvo Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< I like 'Lainie's idea of swearing fealty with my hands between those of my liege, if the King was someone I respected highly, such as Gunthar, but I guess that is also crossing over between fealty to a person and to an institution. >>> I swore fealty holding the hands of their Majesties Theuderic and Engelin. <<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from medieval times? >>> I swore thusly: From this hour, I become your man, for life, for limb, and for worldly honour. I will be true and faithful to the Crown of Lochac, never cause it harm and will observe my oath to it completely against all persons in good faith and without deceit. -- Antonia di Benedetto Calvo Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:24:34 -0700 From: James Prescott Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA In An Tir my Peerage oaths (OP & OL) were generic, mentioned among other things continuing to serve / perform, and did not include fealty. I have sworn fealty a large number of times using a variety of generic, custom, and historical oaths. Thorvald Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:23:38 -0700 From: "Kathleen A Roberts" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA On Mon, 2 Mar 2009 01:03:35 -0600 Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from medieval times? >>> of course i wrote my own... how else was I going to make grown men cry? We swear on the sword of state, lightning. It was very persona appropriate (funny, she doesn't look druish) likening the king to the sun that warms and protects and the queen to the moon that gently guides our path in the darkness. i promised to speak praise loudly and criticism quietly, to nurture and defend the fledgling and aid and support the experienced. i finished it up with a rather irish oath of 'this do i swear, and if i do not, let the heavens fall upon me, the earth break beneath me and the sea swallow me up.' The king was crying, his champion was crying, the guard were crying, the... heck, everybody was crying. It was very moving, but then it was for bardic arts. ;) Ban-fili Cailte Caitchairn, OL Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 05:15:54 -0500 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA On Mar 2, 2009, at 2:03 AM, Stefan li Rous wrote: <<< I like 'Lainie's idea of swearing fealty with my hands between those of my liege, if the King was someone I respected highly, such as Gunthar, but I guess that is also crossing over between fealty to a person and to an institution. For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from medieval times? >>> I've never been asked to swear fealty as a peer, but I did so a few times in my capacity as a great officer of state. I swore, with my hands between those of the King and Queen, to faithfully serve the wellbeing and interests of the people of the Eastrealm, under the dictates of conscience and the guidance of the Crown. Realizing that this is not everybody's idea of fealty, I'd then ask if this was acceptable, and the Crown always said yes. My favorite [real, period] Oath of Fealty is from the elders of some Spanish town, and essentially it says, "We, who are no less than you, take you, who are no greater than us, to be our Lord and King, provided you uphold our ancient liberties and laws. And if not, not." It seems to become a little more attractively relevant with each reign. Adamantius Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 07:35:03 -0700 From: edoard at medievalcookery.com Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: "Cooks within the SCA" -------- Original Message -------- From: lilinah at earthlink.net Here in the West... [...] Peerage Oath A peerage oath is what one swears when when one becomes a peer (i'm sure i'll be corrected if i'm wrong). The oath for knights differs from the oath for laurels and pelicans. There is a standard ceremony and oath, but one can also use a non-standard format for the ceremony up to a certain point, when the standard oath kicks in. It ends with the oath of fealty, related to the oath the royalty swear when taking office. Here's the one for Laurels and Pelicans: ------------------------------------ Note that all such oaths are optional, as per SCA corpora, and that when an individual is unwilling to swear an oath for religious or other reasons an alternate ceremony must be allowed for which doesn't involve an oath. - Doc (Quaker, who had an affirmation at his elevation) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:06:05 -0600 From: Michael Gunter Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA <<< They don't call up the knights individually to give their oaths? That is often done here in Ansteorra, although I don't think it is common in Ansteorra for the other Peers to get time for individual oaths. >>> We don't require non-Knights to swear fealty. A non-knight may swear an oath of personal fealty but it is not required for their Peerage. The only other group that is required to swear fealty is the Landed Baronage. Officers are required to swear an Oath of Service which is different from fealty. <<< While it is period, I find the individual oaths to be rather boring and drawn out at Coronations, at least for the audience. You can't hear the individual oaths. >>> I've always found the individual oaths of fealty to be rather boring myself. So what we did was tell the knights that they are already bound by the original oath they swore when they were chained. What they do at Coronation is simply reaffirming their original oath. This way a mass oath does not cheapen the fealty of the individual and a knight doesn't have to feel duty bound to say nice things if they don't like me personally. They don't even have to be there but are still in fealty to the Crown and Kingdom if not to me personally. We also allowed that any knight who wishes to swear a personal fealty may do so at any other Court other than Coronation and they would be granted the honor of being the first order of business. I would never command or demand knights to give me fealty as has been done by other Kings. Once the oath is sworn and the person chained that oath continues until it is nullified either by the individual or Society. Oh, and one thing we did at our Coronation was we found a period oath and made a couple of changes to better suit our game. This got away from the Tolkien oath that is used so much. Well, we attempted to use the period oath but with everything else going on Elizabeth and I kept forgetting the words and just ad libbed it anyway. But at least we made the attempt! <<< Stefan >>> Gunthar Still King Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:04:14 -0500 From: "Terri Morgan" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" <<< For you Peers out there, that swore an oath, was the oath you swore a generic one, or one that you created for yourself or one taken from medieval times? >>> Mine was very personal - I swore only what I felt I could give and my oath was to the SCA, not the Kingdom or the Crowns. I swore to them, as representatives of the Society "the deeds of my heart, my hands, and my mind in service to the Society for as long as the mountains kiss the sky, the waters lap the shores or my breath warms my body." The act of fealty is an act of binding, of gift/obligation between one and the other - I'm not comfortable with letting others put my honour in their words. Since my household is a Great Nation, I do not swear to Kingdoms - although I have bend knee and sworn fealty to individual throne-holders on a personal basis after my peerage had taken affect and each of those times, again, it was a personal oath based in what I specifically wished to give to that particular monarch, and what they were willing to accept and give to me. Hrothny Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2009 21:23:05 -0400 From: Solveig Throndardottir Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA <<< Note that all such oaths are optional, as per SCA corpora, and that when an individual is unwilling to swear an oath for religious or other reasons an alternate ceremony must be allowed for which doesn't involve an oath. >>> Except for the chivalry which is divided into two parts for precisely this reason. Your Humble Servant Solveig Throndardottir Amateur Scholar Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 14:15:01 -0700 From: "Celia des Archier" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: "'Cooks within the SCA'" So, in other words, Atlantia is violating Society policy... they're just doing it like employers who get away with anti-discrimination laws, by "good ole boy" rules? I really don't know what to say to that. *Is* it unofficial policy? The way folks were talking, it sounded like the BoD mandate that there be an option was official policy that no one be inhibited from participation on the requirement to swear fealty. I haven't read the Corpora lately, so I'm not sure. But it would seem to me that the policy against religious discrimination would apply in the case of requiring an oath of fealty, so "vetting" people well in advance to prohibit them from becoming a member of the Chivalry if they will not take an oath of fealty amounts to religious discrimination, so it seems to me that they're going around a very important policy. Of course, I know from personal experience that the part of Corpora which is intended to prevent religious discrimination can't actually prevent bigotry, but at least it *should* prohibit it's occurring in such a systemized manner. I'm sorry... but what you're saying below is actually pretty shocking to me. Taking an oath, any kind of oath, is something that some people take very seriously, and I would expect a society based on Chivalry to understand that such a requirement would hit on ethics or religious beliefs for many people. So hearing that members of a Kingdom's Order of Chivalry within the SCA are essentially skirting around non-discrimination policies to permit them to discriminate against people who might hold religious beliefs or even just personal ethics which prevented them from taking an oath of fealty to a temporary and pretend monarch - well... it's pretty shocking to me. I certainly wouldn't expect there to be a lot of people who would choose to become an MoA rather than a Knight/Dame, but I would expect those who do to be people with very strong religious and/or ethical values... exactly the type of people whom we would *want* in the Order of Chivalry. In Service, Celia. -----Original Message----- <<< So, does anyone belong to a Kingdom where they don't have Masters of Arms? Shoshonna, which Kingdom(s) do you understand not to acknowledge them? >>> Atlantia, for one. If we have a Master of Arms, they are an import. There have been loud and definite statements from many of our Knights that no MoA would ever be made in this Kingdom - and from what I have observed, candidates are vetted well in advance to ensure that they will swear fealty come the day. It's a pity, but one cannot force a change of unofficial policy on a group of people - any Royal who'd try would be laying a huge burden on the shoulders of the MoA as he (or she) (no, wait, we've never had a female knight, either) would be shunned by a significant body of the Chivalry. Hrothny Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 17:41:13 -0400 From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OT- Peerage Oaths To: Cooks within the SCA On Mar 24, 2009, at 5:15 PM, Celia des Archier wrote: <<< I'm sorry... but what you're saying below is actually pretty shocking to me. Taking an oath, any kind of oath, is something that some people take very seriously, and I would expect a society based on Chivalry to understand that such a requirement would hit on ethics or religious beliefs for many people. So hearing that members of a Kingdom's Order of Chivalry within the SCA are essentially skirting around non-discrimination policies to permit them to discriminate against people who might hold religious beliefs or even just personal ethics which prevented them from taking an oath of fealty to a temporary and pretend monarch - well... it's pretty shocking to me. I certainly wouldn't expect there to be a lot of people who would choose to become an MoA rather than a Knight/Dame, but I would expect those who do to be people with very strong religious and/or ethical values... exactly the type of people whom we would *want* in the Order of Chivalry. >>> And, of course, since none of us has ever seen a member of the Chivalry (or other peerage) break an oath (have we???), it becomes all the more important that this high standard be maintained. Right? I was the apprentice of a Laurel who's a practicing Quaker, and he had trouble with the concept of an oath of fealty, which I suspect he passed on, in part, to me. I've just been really careful not to make any promises I'm not certain I can keep, or to make any secret of who it is, in the Society, that I serve. Adamantius Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:12:26 -0500 From: Michael Gunter Subject: [Sca-cooks] Masters at Arms To: Cooks within the SCA Ansteorra has had several MoAs and in the early years most of our high-ranking fighters were Masters. Atenveldt was almost exclusively Masters for their first years mainly because their biggest influence was from Duke Richard of Montroyal, MoA. I had a friend, Sir Starhelm Warlocke (shows just how old those days were), who lived in Meredies at the time he was offered the accolade. He wanted to be a MoA like his teacher at the time, Duke Lloyd von Eaker. The Crown sent him away saying they would only make Knights. Unfortunately for the Crown Starhelm happened to be dating Katherine Kurtz who was the Steward of the Society at the time. After many angry words and threats Starhelm was eventually granted the only "Knight Bachelor" in the Society. He wore a White Belt but never swore fealty and was not allowed to wear the chain. When I was approached to be elevated I nearly decided to become a Master because I never felt I'd be courtly enough for knighthood. I can see myself as more the weaponsmaster who teaches the young squires and knights. But I decided that all my life I wanted to be a knight. Not the same as, but different. So I was belted and chained and have spent the next two decades trying to live up to it. I believe that a knight swears his oath but once and all the other times are just re-affirmations of that original oath. If I don't kneel before the Crown and say the words does not mean I'm not in fealty. I also feel that the knights are the only group this rule applies to. Baronies in fief are the only group who are required to swear fealty. Officers swear oaths of service, which are different. Any other oaths sworn are gifts of personal fealty to the personages wearing the Crown. Yers, Gunthar Edited by Mark S. Harris SCA-oaths-msg Page 9 of 9