Title: SCA-gays-msg
Subject: Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in the SCA.
Author: Edited by Mark Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Keywords: SCA, gays, lesbians, attitudes, minority. sex

SCA-gays-msg - 2/15/10

Acceptance of Gays and Lesbians in the SCA. Experiences of gay and lesbian folks in the SCA.

NOTE: See also the files: Blue-Feather-msg, SCA-minorties-msg, SCA-as-family-msg, SCA-reasons-msg, SCA-The-Dream-msg, magic-moments-msg, p-sex-msg.

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NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that I have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

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    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
                                          Stefan at florilegium.org
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From: ianengle at freenet.columbus.oh.us (Ian Engle)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: 6 Sep 1996 00:05:16 -0400
Organization: The Greater Columbus FreeNet

JeremyBear (jeremybear at aol.com) wrote:
: My question:  Is there an honored and viable place within SCA circles for
: openly gay men and lesbians who are in relationship and involved in SCA
: activities as a couple??

: The Rev. Jeremy Edward McLeod
: JeremyBear at AOL.com or
: jemcleod at ecentral.com

        I'm sorry you have not seen the Society as I've seen them in this
regard.  I would tell you that here abouts (Midrealm-Ohio, Indiana,
Kentucky) my love, Master Dougal, and I were readily accepted and honourably
treated by almost everybody we met or dealt with in the Society (But hell,
he had that loveable nature...)

                                        --Master Sion Andreas

From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: 6 Sep 1996 05:52:38 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Well, I can't exactly speak to the "as a couple" experience (pout), but I
have never seen any evidence that my being a lesbian has been a problem
for me or anyone else in any of my SCA activities.  (But then, I live in
Berkeley -- YMMV.)

Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn

From: smills at wichita.fn.net (put your name here)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:00:28 -400
Organization: Feist Connections

Dear Jeremy-We know several openly gay couples in SCA and enjoy their
company very much.In answer to your question I would say yes,but you know that
attitudes change from place to place. Come play with us in Calontir. We would 
love to have you.

Lady Clare

From: tmcd at crl.com (Timothy A. McDaniel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: 6 Sep 1996 22:07:44 -0500
Organization: CRL Network Services      (415) 705-6060  [Login: guest]

In article <50ngge$28o at newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
JeremyBear <jeremybear at aol.com> wrote:
>except for
>the homophobia I see expressed and acted out frequently.  Perhaps the
>"Current Middle Ages" are no more or less homophobic than the current age.
...
>My question:  Is there an honored and viable place within SCA circles for
>openly gay men and lesbians who are in relationship and involved in SCA
>activities as a couple??

Surely!  Until March, I lived in the Barony of the Steppes (Dallas,
Texas).  The Baron of the Steppes, Edwin Fitz Lloyd, lives with his
lover, Paul Roelant.  When Paul got a major award (court barony), it
was one of the most applauded awards I'd ever heard there.  The
Honorable Lord Aethelstan of Staffordshire (now departed, alas) was
rather popular.  I daresay I had my own popularity there, though I say
it who shouldn't.

I don't think the insistance that couples in a landed nobility post
need to be of the opposite sex is really homophobia. ... but I can't
expand on my points, as I must deal with backups now.
-- 
Daniel de Lincoln
                             Tim McDaniel
                        Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com
                     (Work is mcdaniel at cpm.com.)
              Never use mcdaniel at mcdaniel.dallas.tx.us.

From: LFWolffe at aol.com (Linda Wolffe)
Date: 09 Sep 96 07:13:03 
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: SCA meets "Stonewall"??

     I live in mid-southern An Tir (Portland, OR) and my wife and I have
no problems at all at events. (She's a pre-op M to F TS.) We hold hands in
Merchant's Row; we refer to each other as "my wife." No problems.
     We have also tried to find Clan Bluefeather, and have given people our
address for that group; and the blue feather, at least in this neck of the
woods, has become a symbol of recognition for the gay/lesbian/bi/TS
community in the SCA. There was even a Bluefeather tea at the 30-year
celebration. (We didn't make it; my Lady was playing Tablero again.)

In Troth,
Runswith of Grithold

From: gunnora at bga.com (Gunnora Hallakarva)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: 9 Sep 1996 22:11:05 GMT
Organization: Real/Time Communications Internet customer posting

Greetings, good Jeremy.

        The SCA as a whole is MUCH more tolerant of all sorts of things than the 
general public.  Since the general public regards adults who play dress up as slightly wierd or completely cuckoo, we are all to some degree "unusual."

        I personally have never encountered homophobia in the SCA.  I have been in 18 years.  I came out to the SCA almost 10 years ago.  The general response was either, "Great!  I'm so glad you're happy."  or "So?  We've known about THAT for ages!"  Both I and my lady are welcomed everywhere and by all ranks within the Society.

        I am far from the only member of the kingdom to be "family" either.  We 
number a territorial baron:  Master Edwin FitzLloyd is Baron of the Steppes.  He and his consort Paul are to be found seated side-by-side at banquets, presiding with dignity and enviable grace.  The Order of the Laurel here is "rife" with "our sort" as well:  Aside from Baron Edwin and myself, there are Master Colin, Mistresses Mara and Muriel (a couple), and Mistress Branwyn, and I cannot say how many we might have that are "bi".  And there look to be others among us soon.  I can think of at least three gay candidates (apprentice or not) for the Laurel, and one lesbian.  I do not know the affectional preferences of our other peerage circles, although I can say we have at least one bi-sexual member of the Chivalry.  

        I can say that none of the homosexual members of the SCA here are "in 
your face" queers within the SCA environment.  We don't hide it, but neither are we fornicating in the list field.  My lady and I walk arm in arm, and flirt and joke with one another.  I think we show about as much PDA as the average heterosexual couple.

        The SCA should be a welcoming environment for all.  We are not here to be divisive, or racist, or sexist, or what have you.  We are here to have a good time and perhaps to learn something.  For me, when people ask me to tell them about myself, I don't say "I'm a lesbian."  The first self-description out of my mouth is always, "I'm a medievalist involved in the SCA."  I feel that there is no room in the SCA for homophobia, and happily, I found none thus far.  

Wassail!
::GUNNORA::

From: wwwaft at access2.digex.net (Dexter Guptill)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: SCA meets "Stonewall"??
Date: 9 Sep 1996 18:56:39 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA

In Atlantia, we have Masters Daniel and James of Rutland, who are both
highly-regarded Laurels. James is a bard, and is of course highly popular.
Daniel is an artist. A brief digression here: One of the peer-making
ceremonies in Atlantia involves a member of each of the Chivalry, Laurel,
Pelican, and Rose coming into court to speak for the candidate. AFAIK,
_all_4_ had members vying for the privilege of speaking for Daniel. We
have other like couples in the kingdom -- Jim & Dan happen to be the one I
know the best.

*** Dexter C. Guptill, Computer Services, American Fed of Teachers
*** Member, 49th VA Vol Inf CSA (N-SSA) & Hampden's Regiment of Foote (ECW)
*** AKA Ld. Erich von Kleinfeld, Stierbach, Atlantia (SCA)

Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 20:42:50 -0800
From: njones at ix.netcom.com (Nathan Jones)
Subject: Re: Reply re: Your Blue Feather Concerns
To: ansteorra at eden.com

Greetings friends,

A small taste of what it's like to be gay in the Current Middle Ages:
  
*****

A male fighter gets off the field and he notices a beautiful woman who has been 
watching the list.  She notices him notice her and gives him an encougageing 
smile.  Later that day, he chances by, clean, sweet smelling and in his best 
tunic.  They spend the afternoon engaged in conversation.  Night falls and the 
feasting and revelry begin.  He gets bold and, during feast, sings a love song 
and bashfully dedicates it to her.  During feast, they sit next to each other, 
holding hands and occasionally feeding each other bits of food.  After feast, 
they dance the night away.  All are charmed by their behavior.

*****
Now envision what that day would be like with a lesbian/gay theme.

A male fighter gets off the field and he notices a handsome man who has been 
watching the list.  He sees that said handsome man happens to be wearing a blue 
feather pinned to his doublet with a red ribbon pin.  Handsome man notices 
fighter notice him and gives a vague, noncommital smile in return.  Later that 
day, the figher chances by, clean, sweet smelling and in his best tunic, with a 
blue feather pinned to it.  They spend the afternoon engaged in conversation.  
Night falls and the revelry begins.  The fighter gets bold and, during feast, 
sings a love song, glancing at his new friend to let him know who the song is 
for.  During feast they sit next to each other and, cautiously, clasp hands under the table, being careful not to attract attention.  After feast, they watch the dancing, or perhaps dance with female friends of theirs, wishing they could dance with each other.  They retire to their camp for privacy so that they can speak frankly to each other without having to wonder who might be listening. 

*****

The second scenario is a fantasy.  I have been in the SCA for five years and have met one (1) other eligible gay man at an event and he wasn't my type!  *sigh*  
Now, I've met lots of gay/lesbian/bi people, but the dating prospects are kinda 
slim.  *grin*  While I don't think we need a formal guild for Bluefeather in 
Ansteorra, I like the fact that it exists.  I love the fact that there is the 
Blue Ball at Pennzic.  I think it would be neat to have something similar at Gulf War.  My hope is to eventually find a partner/lover/husband who is in the SCA or is SCA-compatible.  So I'm in favor of any chance to get together and socialize in a comfortable setting with other gay/lesbian/bi SCA folk.  All this I say as the mundane, Nathan.  Gio is currently looking to get married to a nice 
Florentine woman of a good family!

My being gay has absolutely nothing to do with how I play the SCA, but it affects me every day of my life.  And that, BTW, has nothing to do with what I do in the bedroom, which is none of your business.  *grin*

Gio,
currently living in a teeny, tiny town near Northkeep.

Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 01:18:06 -0800
From: "Frederick J. Hollander" <flieg at berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Lochac] Can of same-sex worms Re:  urban legends
To: The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list <lochac at lochac.sca.org>
     
Flieg here --

  I suppose I'm interfering again, but while the argument that may be 
"usually given" is that it is ahistorical, in my opinion the true reason 
is that it is against the romantic tropes.  It is part of the "supposed 
to be"s that the King and Queen are a King and Queen not a King and 
"Queen". I think it important to note that sexual involvement has for a 
long time NOT been the case, starting with Asbjorn and Brekka in the 
East Kingdom and continuing to the present day.  I also reject the 
argument that it is based in homophobia, given the social orientation of 
the early participants.  (One prominent Lord announced at a meeting in 
the late sixties. "Guys, I have an important announcement to make: I'm 
gay." "That's nice, Jerry, but what's your important announcement?" 
Seriously, I was there.) I'm not saying there isn't homophobia in the 
SCA (we are a part and parcel of our cultures), but it isn't the basis 
for the ruling.

I note that all the examples so far adduced of non-couples were: 
brothers, (one set of sisters) and mother-son regencies (which really 
don't match the question since a regency is not the same as co-rule).

Given the romantic ideal nature of our crown tournaments, brotherly 
co-rule is not going to be on the docket.

  -- Flieg

Paul Sleigh wrote:
<<< Absolutely.  The argument usually given for banning same-sex couples is
that it's ahistorical.  Obviously it's not, and very likely the real
reason for the ban is plain homophobia.  But we're ruled from a nation
of religious nuts (even if our membership are nowhere near as religious
as the average) so there's not much chance of a change.  Hey ho.

(And if the homophobia argument seems implausible, consider how many
black people ruled as king or queen anywhere in Europe.  Now check
Corpora to see where it says that people of African ancestry are not
allowed to enter Crown tourneys.)

: Bat : >>>
-- 
&   &   &     Frederick of Holland, MSCA, OL, OP. etc.
++ +++ ++     Flieg Hollander, flieg at berkeley.edu
=========     http://xray.cchem.berkeley.edu/flieg2/wkwc
-- A crank ------- Old Used Duke  ------- not a tool ---

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	SCA-gays-msg	Page  of