Title: SCA-fence-hist-msg
Subject: History of fencing and rapier combat in the SCA.
Author: Edited by Mark S. Harris
Last saved by: Mark S. Harris
Company: Motorola
Keywords: SCA rapier fencing history award

SCA-fence-hist-msg - 11/19/99

History of fencing and rapier combat in the SCA.

NOTE: See also the files: Hst-SCA-Fence-art, fencing-msg, p-rapier-msg,
Mer-rap-sus-art, bucklers-msg, SCA-hist-msg, SCA-Stories-msg.

************************************************************************
NOTICE -

This file is a collection of various messages having a common theme that
I  have collected from my reading of the various computer networks. Some
messages date back to 1989, some may be as recent as yesterday.

This file is part of a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium.
These files are available on the Internet at: http://www.florilegium.org

I  have done  a limited amount  of  editing. Messages having to do  with
seperate topics  were sometimes split into different files and sometimes
extraneous information was removed. For instance, the  message IDs  were
removed to save space and remove clutter.

The comments made in these messages are not necessarily my viewpoints. I
make  no claims  as  to the accuracy  of  the information  given  by the
individual authors.

Please  respect the time  and  efforts of  those who have written  these
messages. The  copyright status  of these messages  is  unclear  at this
time. If  information  is  published  from  these  messages, please give
credit to the orignator(s).

Thank you,
    Mark S. Harris                  AKA:  THLord Stefan li Rous
    mark.s.harris@motorola.com            stefan@florilegium.org
************************************************************************

Subject: Re: ANST - Re: [STEPS] Proposal for a fourth Peerage(long) (nl)
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 22:03:56 JST
From: jonwillowpel@juno.com
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 18:58:28 -0500 "maddie teller-kook" <meadhbh@io.com>
writes:
> For a rapier fighter to be considered for a laurel, I (this is my opinion)..
> would expect that person to be heavily involved in researching the fighting
> style... teaching at king's colleges or other teaching venues, writing
> papers; researching/making armor and clothing, weapons and other related
> arts and sciences for that fighting style. And again, teaching this to
> others. I would NOT consider someone who only wins tournaments.
>
> Meadhbh

In the past we have not put Rapier fighting under the Laurel because we
have been hoping for it to get put under knighthood or separate category
under the Chivalry. It is a fighting art. A long time ago my husband and
I had the choice of putting rapier fighting under the Laurel. Master
Tivar was voted into the Laurel and the Pelican for his work in the
rapier community. Duke Jonathan , then King Jonathan, gave him the choice
of what he wanted. Jonathan explained that if Rapier fighting was put
under the Laurel it would never be thought of as part of the Chivalry.
Master Tivar chose the Pelican. I feel this was the right decision even
today and hope in near future that rapier fighters will be recognize as
members of the Chivalry. ( As a historical note Duke Jonathan de Laufyson
was the king that signed in the first light fighting rules.

Duchess Willow de Wisp

Subject: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage)
Date: Sun, 03 Oct 1999 16:29:49 MST
From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn@bga.com>
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

I'm afraid Her Grace has her facts a bit mixed up.

At 07:53 PM 10/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
>In the past we have not put Rapier fighting under the Laurel because we
>have been hoping for it to get put under knighthood or separate category
>under the Chivalry. It is a fighting art.

Granted that rapier is a fighting art, there have never been more than a
small minority of the Belts who would be willing to see it included as part
of the Chivalry, either as a "regular" Knighthood, Master of Arms or a
separate category.

>A long time ago my husband and
>I had the choice of putting rapier fighting under the Laurel. Master
>Tivar was voted into the Laurel and the Pelican for his work in the
>rapier community. Duke Jonathan , then King Jonathan, gave him the choice
>of what he wanted.

I was never formally offered a choice between the Laurel and the Pelican.
There was discussion among various peers and the Crown about whether the
work I'd been doing in developing rapier combat was more suited to the
Laurel (research, development and teaching of a period fighting style) or
to the Pelican (administrative work in writing the rules, setting up the
marshallate, etc.)

>Jonathan explained that if Rapier fighting was put
>under the Laurel it would never be thought of as part of the Chivalry.
>Master Tivar chose the Pelican. I feel this was the right decision even
>today and hope in near future that rapier fighters will be recognize as
>members of the Chivalry.

I don't think that's any more likely now than it was 20+ years ago when I
got my Pelican.

>( As a historical note Duke Jonathan de Laufyson was the king that signed in 
>the first light fighting rules.)

That depends on how you define 'first". Yes, the first set of rapier combat
rules for the Kingdom of Ansteorra were signed into law by the first Crown,
Jonathan and Willow. However, the *Principality* of Ansteorra had had
rapier fighting rules for over a year before we became a kingdom; our
parent kingdom of Atenveldt had official rapier fighting rules as well. The
first set of SCA-wide rapier fighting rules were put out by Duke Andrew of
Seldom Rest in AS XII (1977).

        -Tivar Moondragon

Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage)
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 12:11:57 MST
From: jonwillowpel@juno.com
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

Master Tivar is right but he missed a point.

Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a
Principality. Princes cannot  create combat rules without the approval
and signature of the King.  Simon was the Prince who wrote them but
Jonathan took the responsibility for them. I would also add he took a lot
of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were
offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his
support of the light community.  Also there was  the board meeting where
they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was
Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what
was happening.

As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a
dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier
community  have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is
in most of the kingdom show that they  are making progress. Many of the
young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid
marshal art and hold it in high respect. .  Master Tivar do not give up!
I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize.

As for the differences between Master Tivar and ourselves. I believe that
they stem from our communications styles. Master Trivar and Duke Jonathan
 have always needed a translator and back then they were really out of
sinc. I know what we thought we were saying and appears that we were as
clear as mud. Master Tivar and Duke Jonathan  and myself were on
different sides of political fence and because of that saw things from
different angles.

Duchess Willow de Wisp

Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history Oops! Tivar is right!
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 14:09:06 MST
From: jonwillowpel@juno.com
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

Oops!!
I am afraid that Master Tivar was right. Jonathan came home and cleared
things up.

First there had been no "official" rules in Ansteorra under Atenvelt.
Ansteorra had created rules but they had never been signed by the King of
Atenvelt or the Earl Marshal of Atenvelt. Jonathan believes that Sir
Dennis of the Titans who was the Earl Marshall at the time did not
allowed them. Therefore the rules that we were using were not legal. We
could get away with that because we were so far away and didn't care what
Atenvelt thought.  The first Legal rules were those signed by his Grace
as King of Ansteorra and Sir Karl as Earl Marshal of Ansteorra. It was
these rules that got them into trouble.

The thing that got me confused was the Principality award honoring light
weapons fighters. This award was the Principality's version of the White
Scarf. This was the first award for rapier fighting.  Prince Simon and
Princess Tessa created the award but King Jonathan de Laufyson was the
Aten king who approved it. Remember all awards have to be signed by the
king. Master Tivar was the first member of the Principality's award and
when Jonathan and I , as first King and Queen , set up the White Scarfs
we made him the first White Scarf and so maintained the order as created
by Simon and Tessa. We had to change part of the name to make the heralds
happy but it was one of the few orders that were carried over to the
Kingdom of Ansteorra and owes it origin to Sir Simon and Mistress Tessa.

 Willow
(with egg on her face)

Subject: Re: ANST - Some rapier history (was:Proposal for a fourth Peerage)
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 21:12:25 MST
From: Chris and Elisabeth Zakes <moondrgn@bga.com>
To: ansteorra@Ansteorra.ORG

At 01:34 PM 10/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Master Tivar is right but he missed a point.
>
>Duke Jonathan was the Atenvelt king that signed them in when we were a
>Principality. Princes cannot  create combat rules without the approval
>and signature of the King.  Simon was the Prince who wrote them but
>Jonathan took the responsibility for them.

That's not how *I* remember things...
I was appointed Stargate Rapier Marshal in the Fall of AS XIII (1977) and
Principality Rapier Marshal sometime in 1978. I know there were rapier
tournaments fought before then, however. That suggests that we were
operating with *some* kind of rules, even if they hadn't been approved by
Atenveldt.

>I would also add he took a lot
>of flack for them. Do any of you remember the inquiry? Well we were
>offered a deal that it wouldn't happen if Jonathan backed down from his
>support of the light community.

That sounds rather unlikely. The Board meeting that approved rapier
fighting in the SCA was September 11th 1979 and Earl Kevin Perigryne, the
Society Marshal published a set of Society Rapier Rules In October of that
year. The Court of Inquiry wasn't held until November 10th almost two
months *after* the Board's approval of rapier fighting.

>Also there was  the board meeting where
>they were going to vote to outlaw light weapons on the field . It was
>Jonathan that spilled the beans and called the light community about what
>was happening.
>
>As for getting a rapier fighting accepted as marshal art rather than a
>dramatic presentation Master Tivar and the leaders of the rapier
>community  have done that. The fact that some form of light fighting is
>in most of the kingdom show that they  are making progress. Many of the
>young knights have grown up with light fighting and think of it as valid
>marshal art and hold it in high respect. .  Master Tivar do not give up!
>I believe in your vision and think you are closer to it than you realize.

Dragging this (briefly) back towards the original topic, I should point out
that I am *not* in favor of a peerage for rapier fighting. By the
Renaissance, knighthoods were given out for military leadership or "service
to the state", not for individual fighting ability.

(snip)

and from a later posting...

>Oops!!
>I am afraid that Master Tivar was right. Jonathan came home and cleared
>things up.
>First there had been no "official" rules in Ansteorra under Atenvelt.
>Ansteorra had create rules but they had never been signed by the King of
>Atenvelt or the Earl Marshal of Atenvelt. Jonathan believes that Sir
>Dennis of the Titans who was the Earl Marshall at the time did not
>allowed them.

I'm not so sure of that. I have a copy of a set of Atenveldt Rules signed
by Sir Dennis. It is, unfortuantely, not dated and there is no Crown
signature, but it's filed between a letter from October of 1977 and one
from January 1979. That implies that there *were* official Atenveldt rules
sometime in 1978.

>Therefore the rules that we were using were not legal. We
>could get away with that because we were so far away and didn't care what
>Atenvelt thought.  The first Legal rules were those signed by his Grace
>as King of Ansteorra and Sir Karl as Earl Marshal of Ansteorra. It was
>these rules that got them into trouble.
>
>The thing that got me confused was the Principality award honoring light
>weapons fighters. This award was the Principality's version of the White
>Scarf. This was the first award for rapier fighting.  Prince Simon and
>Princess Tessa created the award but King Jonathan de Laufyson was the
>Aten king who approved it.

Again, I'm not entirely sure of that. I *do* recall that it was TRM Theo
and Selene who were on the throne when the first White Scarf was given out,
but they *had* just succeded TRM Jonathan and Willow, so your chronology
may be correct.

>Remember all awards have to be signed by the
>king. Master Tivar was the first member of the Principality's award and
>when Jonathan and I , as first King and Queen , set up the White Scarfs
>we made him the first White Scarf and so maintained the order as created
>by Simon and Tessa.

I'm afraid you're mistaken on that. The White Scarf was not restructured
until TRM Lloyd and Joycelyn were on the throne, early in 1980.

        -Tivar Moondragon

<the end>

Edited by Mark S. Harris	SCA-fence-hist-msg