silk-msg – 10/2/16

Types of silk, silk in the SCA and period. silk noil, raw silk, dyeing silk.

NOTE: See also the files: textiles-msg, fabric-SCA-msg. dyeing-msg, cotton-msg, cotton-art, linen-msg, spinning-msg, looms-msg, embroidery-msg, dye-list-art.

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From: hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu (Heather Rose Jones)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 1 Jan 1994 03:11:29 GMT
Organization: University of California, Berkeley

Gregory Stapleton <gregsta at microsoft.com> wrote:
>I am currently reading a biography of The Black Prince and in 1342, it is
> noted, he gave a lot of silk to one of his sisters, which he had "picked up"
> in France after the battle of Cercy.  Whether it is "raw" silk or not I have
> no idea, but it does appear that silk was available in period.

>Gawaine Kilgore

Oh, I wasn't questioning the use of silk, per se, just the types of processing
and finishing that result in what we call "raw silk" today. The Museum of
London textiles book has an entire section on silk finds which has been
very useful in trying to figure out which of the offerings in my local
fabric store would be appropriate to use.

Keridwen f. Morgan Glasfryn

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: kjh at statsci.com (Kjrsten Henriksen)
Subject: silk, was Re: Expensive Authenticity
Organization: Statistical Sciences, Inc., Seattle, WA USA
Date: Tue, 4 Jan 1994 22:56:51 GMT

There are two kinds of silk that are some-times called "raw silk"---
one is silk noil, which is made by washing and spinning the short
fibers from broken caccoons, and the other is tussah silk, which is
made from the coccoons of other types of mothes which eat other things
than mulberries.

Tussah silk is woven in some of the countries in northern africa,
especially those touched by islam.  It is not as fine or as brilliant
as mulbery-worm silk, and it's base color is never pure white.  I
don't know where else it is worked, I have seldom seen it on the
market, and when i do it is out-rageously expensive.

I love silk noil--it has all the warm-but-cool properties you expect
in natural fabrics, it has a wonderfull drape and hand, and all though
it is not cheep (i've seen it as low as $6/yard a yard wide; $11 for
44" wide is more common) it is cheaper and easier to find than wool of
the same weight. 

malice
kjh at statsci.com

From: ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 4 Jan 1994 01:20:44 -0500
Organization: North Dakota State University ACM, Fargo ND

In article <DOCONNOR.94Jan3164749 at ravage.sedona.intel.com> you wrote:

: bnostran at lynx.dac.neu.edu (Barbara Nostrand) writes:
: ] As I recall, there was extensive silk trade between China and the Roman
: ] empire prior to the collapse of trade attendant upon the age of
: ] migrations.  The Eastern Roman Empire and the Parthian Empire (if I
: ] am recalling my empires correctly) maintiained quite a bit of trade
: ] during much of this period.] silk Regardless, silk was apparently 
: ] known even in Roman times.

: The "Pax Mongolia" begun by Chingis Khan re-opened the silk road,
: allowing trade between China and Europe, and facilitating the
: travels of the various members of the Polo family :-). The silk
: road closed again after the break up of the Mongol Empire in the
: late 14th century

	Silk was being produced in Italy as early as the 11th C.  Most of 
the fancy fabric that you see in pictures with western designs (european)
was produced in Italy and the south of France.  You can still see the 
country side covered in mullberry bushes in much of Italy.
	There was consideral guild control of silk production guided
by the state, as it was important to the economic viability of the country
if not the local rulers taxes.

	Yes, those are silk velvets and damasks in the pictures you see.
Silk could be grown, where as cotten had to be imported and wool to my 
(granted limited) knowledge does not make a good velvet.
	Interesting note I saw on TV, seems that they still have all
of the patterns for weaving the various brocades and such in Italy.  
One can still get the fabrics, but...the prices I was hearing were
800 pounds sterling per meter for the fancy stuff.  Still think of 
the garb you would have!

Horace

From: sbloch at ms.uky.edu (Stephen Bloch)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 4 Jan 1994 15:59:51 -0500
Organization: University Of Kentucky, Dept. of Math Sciences

Robert Arthur Ayotte <ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU> wrote:
>	Silk was being produced in Italy as early as the 11th C.  Most of 
>the fancy fabric that you see in pictures with western designs (european)
>was produced in Italy and the south of France.  You can still see the 
>country side covered in mullberry bushes in much of Italy.

There's a famous story of a couple of Byzantine priests visiting the
Orient, stealing a couple of silkworms and mulberry leaves, and
smuggling them all the way home in their hollowed-out walking sticks.
Robert Graves, in his fictionalized _Belisarius_, suggests that this
happened in the 5th or 6th century AD; anybody know something more
solid?

Silk was being produced in al-Andalus as early as the 10th C, I
believe.  The letter of R. Hasdai ibn-Shaprut (medic and political
adviser to the Caliph of Cordoba) to the King of the Khazars describes
al-Andalus and its products in some detail, mentioning among others
"the leaves upon which the silkworm feeds."  Now, I can't imagine
mulberry leaves themselves as an export crop, since they already grow
well in most of Europe.  It's conceivable that he'd just heard that
silkworms ate mulberry leaves, without ever having seen one, but it
seems much more likely that there was a significant silk industry in
10th-century Spain.

				mar-Joshua ibn-Eleazar ha-Shalib
					Stephen Bloch
				    sbloch at cs.umanitoba.ca
-- 
					Stephen Bloch
				     sbloch at s.ms.uky.edu

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Expensive Authenticity
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honur Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 09:57:34 EST
Organization: there is such a thing?
Summary: more comments on `correct' silks

ayotte at milo.NOdak.EDU (Robert Arthur Ayotte) writes:

> In article <df0_9401040031 at blkcat.fidonet.org> you wrote:
> 
> : Dunno. Seems to me that there must have been, since wild silkworm cocoons a
> : still gathered & used. However, I'm not sure that this fabric would have be
> : a big export item for the silk-producing regions. It surely wouldn't have
> : brought anywhere near the price, and it wouldn't be as strong as reeled sil
> : Grania
> 	Interesting note about the broken cocoons.  Just a thought, but 
> I have read that shipments from china often came packed in the cocoons
> of the moths that had emerged (sort of period packing peanuts).  I guess 
> that the shorter wild threads would make good batting and filling for 
> quilted winter coats as it's a great insulator.  Perhaps a felt was produced
> by soaking the cocoons in warm water to losen the threads and then spreading 
> them in a thin sheet (sort of like paper making). The latter stuff is all
> guessing, any thoughts?
> Horace
Respected Friends: 
	Both correct. `Raw silk ' in the modern sense is mostly made from the 
cocoons chewed open by the emerging moths; back then they were wetted, 
stretched and felted or wadded to produce various types of insulation for
boots, coats, et cetera. In fact, the `bell silk ' sold to American spinners
today is exactly that, and the occasional Chinese citizen who finds out what 
we do with it usually risks a bad bruise or two from falling over laughing.
	Tussah- wild silk- is, however, another story. Since the wild moths
do not have a controlled diet, the cocoons come in lovely golds, ambers,
& browns, all completely fade-resistant because the color is chemically
built into the silk strand itself. I can easily picture a small trade
from India (which is where Tussah comes from) to relatively nearby Byzantium,
of `Sunproof ' tent and awning material.
	I say small because, quite frankly, the taste for lumpy fabrics is an 
artifact of the spinning jenny. Not until smooth is the omnipresent norm
do lumps become the lovely variation from it. In our period, lumps were
found in fabrics like Shoddy (picked apart and re-spun and -woven rags)
not in fabrics like silk. Tent awnings of wild silk I can just picture.
Court dress, no way.
For the original poster who wanted info about suitable silks: Get hold of 
Baroness Catherine Goodwyn's book on period textiles. Her Laurel was in
costume and the thing's worth its weight in silk cocoons, at least. You 
may have to find a real oldster, though; last reprint I know of was AS18.
If you can't get that, try Herbert Norris's 3-volume set, Costume and 
Fashion. Poison Pen Press (check TI ad for adress) is doing a facsimile
reprint that belongs in every group's library. (It is also good for its
unusual, and valuable, coverage of lower and middle-class clothing.)
If you want more detail, just ask. this post is long enough.
thanks- Honour Horne-Jaruk/ Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf

From hal.physics.wayne.edu!corliss  
Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 10:53:01 EST
From: plains!hal.physics.wayne.edu!corliss (David J. Corliss)
Subject: Silk

My dear colleague-

Some notes on terminology:
Silk cocoons normally consists of a _single_ very long tread. The cocoons are soaked in water and the thread reeled up. Then, this single wound up thread in cut to produce pieces of the desired "staple" (length). A person who cut this thread into suitable lengths is said to "hackle" it; the same term is used to
refer to the cutting of flax fibers (they start about a yard in length) to the
desired staple. 

Generally, the processing of silk at all stages tend to produce short, broken
fibers. These are known as "noils". It would seem that your last post speaks 
of felt made from noils. Silk does not felt well, as this process requires
fibers that tend to "grab on" to teach other (my words). Thus, felt is made
from rough fibers with a large amount of "crimp", i.e., kinky. Felt is produced
almost exclusively from various kinds of wool.  While I have not heard of noils
being used for batting, I should think that they would be ideal: they are
light, soft, insulating, extremely durable, and never mat together (i.e., do 
not make felt). 

                                    Beorthwine of Grafham Wood

From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: silk, was Re: Expensive Authenticity
Date: 15 Jan 1994 05:24:29 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <KJH.94Jan4145651 at olivia.statsci.com>,
Kjrsten Henriksen <kjh at statsci.com> wrote:
>
>There are two kinds of silk that are some-times called "raw silk"---

The term raw silk means that not all of the sericin (the gum that
holds the cocoons together) has been removed.  Which further implies
that it is spun from short fibers, rather than reeled long from
long fibers.

Tussah is also known as wild silk and is usualy spun.  But Pongee
is reeled tussah silk.

Someone asked about using silk cocoons for batting.  This is called
Muwata.  The cocoons are simmered in an alkaline solution until
they soften, about an hour, then opened and stretched out.

That story about a cocoon dissolving in the princess's tea cup
is _false_.

Ranvaig (who once at a school demo tried to dissolve a cocoon
by soaking it in boiling water.  I eventually got it to work.
The same reaction from all: Eeeugh!  There's a _bug_ in there!
Moral: Never try anything for the first time at a demo.)

From: sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk
Date: 16 Jan 1994 09:44:47 GMT
Organization: The Ohio State University

In article <9401081952.AA25034 at milo.UUCP>,
Robert Arthur Ayotte <ayotte at milo.UUCP> wrote:
>
>Some notes on terminology:
>Silk cocoons normally consists of a _single_ very long tread. The cocoons are
soaked in water and the thread reeled up. Then, this single wound up thread in
cut to produce pieces of the desired "staple" (length). A person who cut this t
hread into suitable lengths is said to "hackle" it; the same term is used to
>refer to the cutting of flax fibers (they start about a yard in length) to the
>desired staple

To "hackle" flax is to comb it, to separate the fibers from each other
and from the woody parts.  I have never heard this term used for silk.
If you have heard the terms used that way, perhaps modern spinning
mills do.  Who knows what sort of perverse practices they are up to. :-)

A flax hackle looks much like a single wool comb.  That is, a piece
pf wood with many nail-like spikes in it.  You hold one end of a
handful of flax, slap the other end onto the spikes and pull.

Silk may be cut to length and spun, but is more commonly reeled.
I suspect that the pieces too short to reel may be cut so that
modern spinning mills can deal with them, but I would not expect
this to be a period practise. Most period fiber preparation is aimed at
obtaining fibers as long as possible because it wears better, looks
better, and is easier to weave.

Silk is reeled by simmering several coccoons until they soften,
an hour or so.  You loosen one end from each coccoon, bring them
together and wind on a reel or even a stick.  When one breaks
or runs out, or if the thread gets too fine, you add another fiber
from another cocoon. It then can be "thrown" or have twist added.  
This is not the same as spinning because it is not "drafted".  
Drafting is when you elongate the mass of (relatively) short fibers, 
so they slip past each other to make a long, correctly sized proto-thread,
instead of a short fat one.

Ranvaig

From: hwt at bcarh70c.bnr.ca (Henry Troup)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk
Date: 17 Jan 94 15:41:40 GMT
Organization: Bell-Northern Research Ltd., Ottawa, Canada

In article <2hb2af$ldq at charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>, sapalmer at magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Sharon A Palmer) writes:

|> Silk may be cut to length and spun, but is more commonly reeled.

I have reeled silk. Typically, you have a few cocoons unraveling at
once and use the sericin to glue the threads into one. The finest silk
is hand-reeled, using as few as three cocoons - three fibres.

Silk is chopped in modern processes, but produces an inferior fibre
and cloth.  Long threads, no ends, produce the smooth shiny silk that
we all lust after.

This was a workshop for spinners. Fascinating stuff, hard work, and I
got a vicious sunburn.  Somewhere I have samples.

-- 
Henry Troup - H.Troup at BNR.CA (Canada) - BNR owns but does not share my opinions

From: priest at vaxsar.vassar.edu
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Early Period Silks
Date: 20 Sep 94 10:25:56 +1000
Organization: Vassar College

Greeting from Thora Sharptooth!

I missed the original post on this subject, but saw this reply.  Tangwystyl
(hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu ) wrote:

>Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote:
>: Just a quick question:  
>
>: What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early 
>: 10th centuries?  Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm 
>: looking, so silk access isn't a problem.  I'm also not looking so much at 
>: the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather 
>: at the costuming aspect.

It depends somewhat on what your persona is, or what look you're trying to
re-create.  In my culture (Viking-period Scandinavian) explicit types of
Byzantine silks can be demonstrated to have been used for a few specific
purposes.  In the nearby cultures (Anglo-Saxon, Frisian, Frankish), slightly
different uses were no doubt the norm.  If you're talking about southern or
Eastern Europe outside the Rus culture, or the Church, I wouldn't want to
speculate.

And Tangwystyl writes further:

>: I'm certain that raw silk would have been commonly available (is this 
>: true?), and of course silk damasks.  But how about that "silky" oily 

(Note to Sasha:  '"silky" oily' what, by the way?)

>I have become very doubtful that raw silk _would_ have been commonly 
>available, especially in areas where silk was an imported item. 

And she is right.  Byzantine silk textiles were made of reeled bombyx silk, not
spun or tussah silks.  This means that the threads were fine, light-colored,
even, and highly lustrous, not thick, dark, slubby, or matte in texture.  The
closest period example I know of that is even close to silk noil, or what we
moderns (mistakenly) call "raw silk," is one of the (presumed) veils in the
Museum of London's TEXTILES AND CLOTHING book; although it is semi-transparent
and finer than a noil weave, it does have slubby weft threads.  Plain
tabby-woven silks, however, were available in the ninth and tenth centuries; my
people in the Danelaw used a few different types of it, mostly in ribbon form.

Of course, the Moslems in Spain were also weaving silks by the ninth century. 
I do not know any of the technical details of those threads, although the same
types of weaves were used as were used in Byzantium.

As for "damasks," I doubt that Sasha actually mean to use this term.  The weave
referred to as "damask" is not one that is typical of Byzantine silk weaves in
the ninth and tenth centuries:  it is (simplistic version) a monochrome
reversible weave with areas of "shiny" and "matte" making up the patterns.  Nor
is "brocade" what Sasha means:  although folks in the Society often use it to
refer to any multicolor weave, brocade is a technical term for a weave that
involves a supplemental non-structural weft used solely for patterning effect.  

The actual weave used for the fancy Byzantine silks available in the ninth and
tenth centuries was/is called "samitum," or samite.  It is a "weft-faced
compound twill," a thick, supple, lustrous multicolored fabric with a twill
texture that was woven on a double warp.  In that period samites were chiefly
two-colored with large (sometimes geometric) repeating motifs or multicolored
with smaller geometric motifs framing zoomorphic (paired elephants, griffins,
birds, and other critters) or other naturalistic designs.

>(research project queue #275: look into the correlation between period 
>silks and currently available fabrics)

This is near the TOP of my queue.  My general rule of thumb is to match the
texture first (I like rayon challis for a shiny twill texture, but real silk is
of course always preferable), then look for a pattern that's appropriate.  Of
course, that's only until my apprentice finishes figuring out how to weave the
stuff.... ;>

As always, references (or, in this case, suggestions for illustrations of silks
from the ninth and tenth centuries) upon request.

****************************************************************************
Carolyn Priest-Dorman			Thora Sharptooth
Poughkeepsie, NY			Frosted Hills ("where's that?")
priest at vassar.edu			East Kingdom
            Gules, three square weaver's tablets in bend Or
****************************************************************************

From: Blktauna at netaxs.com (Blktauna at netaxs.com)
Date: 16 Sep 94 21:32:09 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: early period silks
Organization: Fidonet: The Black Cat's Usenet <=> Fidonet Gateway 

From: blktauna at Netaxs.com (Donna Bowers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts

Brent Kellmer (kellmer at u.washington.edu) wrote:

: What types of silks would have been available during the 9th and early 
: 10th centuries?  Commerce with Byzantium would have been common where I'm 
: looking, so silk access isn't a problem.  I'm also not looking so much at 
: the historical aspect (although that is interesting enough), but rather 
: at the costuming aspect.

The pertinent question is, where do you live, fellow silk addict? If you 
can do mail order, that is one thing, but if you require a local store 
that can be difficult.

: I'm certain that raw silk would have been commonly available (is this 
: true?), and of course silk damasks.  But how about that "silky" oily 
: stuff that occupies most of the silk section in fabric stores?  I'm 
: trying to work on garb for 12th night.

: Any help would be wonderful.

: --Sasha
:   kellmer at u.washington.edu

Precisely what do you mean by "oily"? I'm none too sure that I would like 
that on me....;)
Since you seem to be of Eastern origin, I can help somewhat. A silk 
damask would be the fabric of choice for any upperclass individual of Rus 
or Polish areas. A richly colored silk broadcloth would be a good choice 
for middle class. I can guess that you mean charmeuse when you talk about 
oily stuff. I have been told that it is period but I have no time period 
for it's use. I use a finely woven raw silk, simply because it is easy to 
obtain. Actually it is not totally correct for me, but until I can afford 
heavy silk twill and brocades, it will have to do. You can not fail with 
a plainweave as fine as you can find.
Then we get to color choice. The best thing to do is go to the library 
and check out the natural dye books. They will give you a handle on color 
intensity and variety. Pick one you like and match from there...
Good luck

Tauna
---------
Fidonet:  Blktauna at netaxs.com 1:109/42
Internet: Blktauna at netaxs.com

From: blktauna at netaxs.com (Donna Bowers)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: early period silks
Date: 30 Sep 1994 16:54:52 GMT
Organization: Netaxs Internet BBS and Shell Accounts

Anne Reynolds (apr at fc.hp.com) wrote:

: Greetings,

: I believe at one point Tangwystl (I hope I'm not mis-atributing the
: question) asked "is the stuff I buy in the store, called China Silk,
: similar to any medieval silk?"  Does anyone have an answer to that
: question?  What I can get locally is China Silk and Silk Charmeuse.
: Are either of these close to a period material?

: Thank you for the help,
: Rashiqah bint Azhar

I have been told that the chila silk is indeed something to buy in vast 
quantity. The verdit is not in on the charmeuse

Tauna

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: period silk?
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 94 23:02:45 EST

Sheri.Stanley at p1.f1.n107.z180.fidonet.org (Sheri Stanley) writes:
>  VsuE> In any case, I seemed to have missed the final consensus on what kind
> of
>  VsuE> silk is best.  I'm thinking of a silk tunic from about the 11th c. in
> a
>  VsuE> culture that would have had contact with the muslim world, and perhaps
>  VsuE> Byzantium.  As I recall, someone suggested that raw silk would not be
>  VsuE> appropriate, but that's as far as I got.  Any suggestions or comments
>  VsuE> would be appreciated, here or privately.
> 
> Any form of silk would be period for *somebody*. "Raw" silk is processed from
> cocoons which have been burst by the moth escaping. It can be made from wild
> silkworms as well, and I'd bet if you found some wild silkworms, you'd use
> the cocoons (that stuff's expensive!).
> 
> Grania
> 
> 
> "yea, that mouthy laurel"
	Respected friends:
	`Raw silk' cocoons produced when domestic silkworms are allowed to
emerge were and are used- to produce quilt wadding. Yup, that's right,
period Quallofil (sort-of). Obviously, since there was a perfectly good use 
for it, and it was being used for that purpose, nobody was thinking much
about diverting it from that use.
	Wild silk is a different matter. That stuff _wasn't_ expensive in 
period. It was, like milkweed down, a poor substitute for something (in
this particular case, cotton) that the users would rather have had but could 
not afford.
	People in medieval China, byzantium, and Spain (raw silk) and
India (wild silk) had more lumpy, slubby, uneven yarn than they wanted just 
through the inevitable mistakes of beginners. They didn't have our machine-
induced fascination with uneven work as `natural'- they mostly thought
slubby yarn was entirly too "natural"- and they beat the lazy drabs who 
produced it.
	Fabric is one of the areas where we have to work hardest to overcome
our modern mindset in order to understand what our forebears had (and wanted).
We like "texture"- unevenness- because we see so little of it and are charged
extra for it. They disliked unevenness; to them it was the evidence of
incompetence.
	As a quick comparison point, try looking at jewelery then and now.
Even their hacks produced better balanced, more even work than our "great
masters" are exhibiting now.
	Alizaunde would have had some interesting words with a clothier
who tried to sell her slubby silk. Prominent among them would be terms like
"shoddy" and "fraud".
	Honour, on the other hand, buys raw silk when it's cheap enough,
because it impresses her mother.
	(Una never saw silk till she reached byzantium, and still doesn't
believe that incredible stuff is worm spit...)

(Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk R.S.F. 
Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf C.O.L. SCA

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: burlap and clothing/alternative loose weaves
From: una at bregeuf.stonemarche.org (Honour Horne-Jaruk)
Date: Fri, 07 Feb 97 22:34:17 EST

mtnmama at rmi.net (mtnmama) writes:
> To change directions a bit, could anyone tell me when and where
> a very loose evenweave raw type of silk would have been used?  
> It may be called silk gauze, and used for a certain type of 
> needlework, but would have been too immodest to wear as a single 
> layer of clothing.
> 
> And the same question for hemp fabric, in a weave similar to a 
> linen suiting weight of today.
> 
> Sheila

        Respected friend:
        On the hemp fabric, you're home free. It wasn't a 
particularly noble fabric, but almost everyone could grow it and
almost anyone who couldn't afford linen wore it.
        On the raw silk, the news isn't good. Unless (for some 
obscure reason) your persona is a peasant from Moghul India, you 
not only wouldn't have worn the stuff, you would not have been 
able to imagine its existence.
        Until _very_ recently, the whole reason for silk was 
smoothness. Once the continuous filaments were reeled off the 
cocoons, _the rest of the fiber was used for insulation._ (we
still have nothing- not even the fancy space-age stuff- that
can match the insulating characteristics of silk.)
        The filament silk hit the silk road; the waste stayed
home, as wadding in those nice thick padded clothes the Chinese
wore in the winter. (The reason the North Indian peasants were
an exception is because the only silkworms available there
were wild ones that lived on oak trees; they couldn't produce
smooth filaments, and the peasants were in no position to complain;
it gets _cold_ in those mountains.)
        Raw silk became popular after the end of home cloth
production. Once smooth factory cloth became the universal norm, 
irregular fabric like Tussah (the North Indian stuff) was
suddenly valuable; it was hand-made, and in limited supply. But
once that limited supply was exhausted, "raw" silk stepped in to 
fill the gap between supply and demand. All of this, of course,
long after the end of the SCA's period.
        Use the hempcloth for non-noble clothing- underlayers and
tough work clothes for the middle class, any and everything for
the "honest" poor. Save the raw silk for flapper costumes.

                                Alizaunde, Demoiselle de Bregeuf
                                Una Wicca (That Pict)
                                (Friend) Honour Horne-Jaruk, R.S.F.

From: gbrent at Kutta.Stanford.EDU (Geoffrey Brent)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk cloth
Date: 3 Apr 1997 10:20:58 -0800
Organization: Stanford University, CA 94305, USA

william thomas powers <powers at woodstock.cis.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>      Here's an interesting question... how easy is it to dye silk?  Is
>>it like linen in that it doesn't take very well, or is it like cotton in
>>that it will hold the color for quite some time (well, nothing lasts
>>through too many washes)?
>>      I ask, because it seems to be most economical to buy an entire
>>bolt of white, cut to need, and dye whatever color you wish.  Would this
>>be feasible... or am I just indulging in wishful thinking?
>
>Silk dyes gorgeously! ---one of the reasons it was so precious---

>Remember that it prefers ACID dyes like wool (*not* like cotton).
>Using natural dyes at our "dye-ins"  we have got some colours that
>really contradict the "only muted tones are period"

One thing you can't get by buying white silk and then dying it
is the "shot silk" look, since that's made by weaving two or more
different colours of silk together for some really pretty effects.

Yes, silk takes some _beautiful_ colours, and I don't really like
to sew with anything else... But to reduce the amount of dye that
_does_ come out in the wash, I'm told that dissolving a good
amount of salt in the water helps. Anyone know if this is true ?

Washing it gently is also good. Rather than normal detergent,
normal hair shampoo will do the trick.

GtQ
wearer of horrendously bright silks

Date: Fri, 09 May 1997 04:27:08 GMT
From: Maggie.Mulvaney at fp.co.nz (Maggie Mulvaney)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Spinning Silk from cocoons

Greetings from Muireann. I've been lurking a while, enjoying the wide
diversity of topics and knowledge on this list!

Lady Elyn wrote;

>Although I have never worked with silk cocoons, my understanding of the
>process is that it is reeled, not spun.  A single silk strand is taken
>from each cocoon and drawn together with several others, then wrapped
>onto a sort of bobbin with little or no twist.  The raw silk is still a
>little gummy, so the thread stays glued together.  I read this in an
>issue of Spin-Off magazine that was several years old-- I'm not sure
>where my copy is, but if it turns up I'll post any tips, historical info,
>etc.

I think both processes were used in period. The article on
headcoverings from Fishamble st in Dublin (Viking age) discusses
several pieces of silk material, some of them woven from spun silk,
some woven from a spun warp and an unspun (reeled, presumably) silk
weft, and I think at least one piece was unspun in both warp and weft.
The unspun thread gives a soft, shiny cloth, which would be rather
nice for a scarf.

/Muireann ingen Eoghain
* MMY             *               Maggie.Mulvaney at fp.co.nz *=20
* Maggie Mulvaney * http://www.fpnet.co.nz/users/m/maggiem *

Date: Wed, 11 Jun 1997 16:15:37 -0400
From: Andrew Gilbert <silk at compuserve.com>
Subject: silk webpage collection
To: "lindahl at pbm.com" <lindahl at pbm.com>

I was fascinated to read the incredible list of questions and discussion of
Silk.

As an active member of the International Silk Association, a grouping of
all the professional companies in sericulture from source through
thrrowsters, weavers, printers, dyers and traders I am delighted to see the
discussion, I agree with the comment that not all answers given are
accurate.

later this year we have are triennial conference this time in Bangkok and
the new issues facing the Silk world will be up for discussion.

For myself, I am one of the largest stockists of Silk fabric in Europe
selling to leading fashion designers, interior designers etc.

I am also the World Chairman of the Furnishing Fabric Section of the ISA,
if anyone does have any questions I will be glad to join in.

My e-mail appropriately is silk at compuserve.com

From: ghazallah at aol.com (Ghazallah)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: [Q]s about Linen
Date: 31 Jul 1997 22:34:27 GMT

I have made very satisfying undertunics, partlettes (sp?) and chemises
from a very lightweight silk that I get from Thai Silks by mail order.  It
costs me less than three dollars a yard and comes in off white which is
nice in of itself, but it also dyes beautifully.  I believe you can order
it pre-dyed but my Baroness had had problems with pre-dyed from that
company.  It is well worth talking to them- they understand SCA!!  Their
number is 1-800-722-SILK.  
Ghazallah al-Qamar

From: piusma at umdnj.edu (Matthew Pius)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: 22 Mar 1998 06:41:43 GMT
Organization: Univ. of Medicine and Dentistry of NJ

Anna Horvath  <emmabean at phnx.uswest.net> wrote:
>I was at the fabric store today (as there was a sale) and found the most
>beautiful silk! There were several bolts of silk on the sale pile but my
>eye was drawn to a plain weave in muted colors. Now I am the proud owner
>of four yards of 60 inch silk.
>Okay, now what do I do with it? :)
>I have an idea for an over dress with gussets. Are there any special
>considerations in handling silk? Cutting, patterning, wash and wear?  I
>definately don't want to ruin such expensive fabric!

        The first advice I have for working with silk is Don't be 
intimidated by the fact that it's silk!

        That said, the main thing to bear in mind is that silk is more 
prone to fraying than cotton or linen, so you have to finish the cut 
edges to prevent fraying.  One way to do this is to line the garment and 
thus avoid the problem.  Another way is to overcast the edges by hand or 
zig-zag over the edges on a machine.  Cutting the edges with pinking 
shears is usually not enough.

        Silk can be slippery (though not all silks are).  This just 
requires a little extra patience when cutting to make sure it doesn't 
move as you go.  If you are sewing it on a machine, make sure that the 
tension and type of needle are appropriate to the weight of the fabric, 
expecially if it is a very different weight from what you normally work 
with.  

        As for cutting and patterning, if you're not sure about the 
pattern, make it up in a cheap fabric first.  Then, when you're sure it 
fits right, you can cut out your silk.  Depending on what your cheap 
fabric is, you may be able to use it as a lining, though you may not want 
to.  It's hard to offer anything more specific without a more detailed 
description of the style of gown you want.

        Most silk can be machine washed (though some would see this as 
heresy).  You'll want to do it on a gentle cycle or something like 
that.  I prefer to use dishwashing soap (I'm told it's better for silk 
than regular laundry soap).  I've also heard it suggested to wash your 
silk with shampoo.  It does tend to wrinkle much, though, so you may not 
want to toss it in the machine.  Handwashing is more work, and doesn't 
necessarily help with the wrinkling.  Of course, if you don't mind wrinkles 
or ironing, this isn't a problem.  The other option of course is dry 
cleaning.  It is generally a good idea to wash the uncut fabric once by 
whatever method you plan to wash the finished garment, but I'll admit I 
rarely do this.  

        If you check out alt.sewing or rec.crafts.textiles.sewing you 
will probably be able to find more information than you ever needed on 
caring for silk.

                                -Ibrahim al-Rashid
                                        (mka Matt Pius)

From: Brett and Karen Williams <brettwi at ix.netcom.com>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 21:30:17 -0800

Matthew Pius wrote in response to Anna Horvath's questions about the
care and feeding of silk fabric:

Welcome to fabric-lust, Anna. ;)

>         Most silk can be machine washed (though some would see this as
> heresy).  You'll want to do it on a gentle cycle or something like
> that.  I prefer to use dishwashing soap (I'm told it's better for silk
> than regular laundry soap).  I've also heard it suggested to wash your
> silk with shampoo.  It does tend to wrinkle much, though, so you may not
> want to toss it in the machine.  Handwashing is more work, and doesn't
> necessarily help with the wrinkling.  Of course, if you don't mind wrinkles
> or ironing, this isn't a problem.  The other option of course is dry
> cleaning.  It is generally a good idea to wash the uncut fabric once by
> whatever method you plan to wash the finished garment, but I'll admit I
> rarely do this.

I would like to add a bit of information to his excellent advice--
silk doesn't like perspiration. Silk also doesn't get along with
detergents-- what you'll find that eventually silk fabric will start to
tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a
mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can
be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing
version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing). Woolite has been
recently reformulated and is harsher than its old version.

Always do it in cold water, gentle cycle is sufficient. Wash it
initially by itself, or even the first few times, to a) check for
shrinkage the first time, and b) make sure that if the dye bleeds (and
sometimes they do, especially that color when on a car is called
Arrest-Me-Red and bright blues). Adding a little bit of plain white
vinegar to the wash water will also help mordant/set the dye, too, and
act as a natural deodorant. Smells skanky while in the water, invisible
once rinsed out.

Never, ever, never put silk in the dryer. Hang it up on a smooth,
non-metal hanger to dry. (I vigorously throw all the horrid metal
dry-cleaner hangers away. They RUST!)

What happens to silk when it's exposed to perspiration is that the
bacteria that causes the scent produce acids that eat minute bits of the
fiber. Permanent stains. A set of dress/perspiration shields might be in
order, Anna, since I think you mentioned you live in Atenveldt, the Land
of the Sun. A good fabric store will have them in stock in the notions
department.

So, let's say you've washed your lovely, smooth, silky silk fabric and
it comes out of the process all nubbly and rough and a little stiff. 
Not to worry. You have two options-- since the sericin in the silk fiber
has been roughed up out of the worm-spit-goo by washing, smack that silk
a few times against the nearest smooth surface, like a large mirror or a
glass shower door, or a glass patio door. Don't smack it hard enough
that you break the glass, of course! The second, and easier method, is
to polish it by ironing it with a cool iron-- most have a 'silk'
setting. Don't go hotter than that, no matter how impatient you are.

ciorstan
(who never sends her commecially-made silky silk or sandwashed law
office garments to the dry cleaners)

From: lecassan at leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu (Cassandre Lee)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: 23 Mar 1998 00:48:10 GMT
Organization: University of Hawaii

Anna Horvath (emmabean at phnx.uswest.net) wrote:

: I have an idea for an over dress with gussets. Are there any special
: considerations in handling silk? Cutting, patterning, wash and wear?  I
: definately don't want to ruin such expensive fabric!

Cutting silk:

     Assuming you're talking about slippery silks, I recommend you get
some pins made specifically for silks.  That is, Dritz manufactures small
packages of fine, sharp, steel pins which are supposed to have less of a
tendency to snag silk threads.
     Pin the heck out of it when you're laying down your pattern and,
again, if we're talking about slippery silk, cut each piece separately as
opposed to cutting out a double layer at a time as you would with cottons,
for example.
     If you need to make any markings on the fabric for later assembly, I
recommend thread tracing.  This will mean your pattern can't be used
again, but fine silks aren't supposed to take tracing wheels too well.

Patterning:

     Shiny silks have a nap, which means all the pieces have to be laid
out with their upper seams pointing in the same direction, or you'll get a
weird color effect when you put it all together.

Wash and Wear:

     I wash my silks in cold water with dishwashing liquid.  Just swish
them around, rinse them out thoroughly, and hang them up to dry.

     Hope this helps!

Cassandre Lee

From: "Cassandra Boell" <cboell at email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 21:44:33 -0500
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca

Greetings. there are as many ways of dealing with silk as there are kinds of
silk and I don't know which kind you have. But...all silk is quite tough
wearable fabric. If you wash it now, you'll be able to wash it always.
Spotting on silk comes from the water soluble size put on it. Dry cleaning
is recommended for silk so that you don't remove this size. (If you dry
clean it alot it'll wear off eventually). I pre-wash silk. Be careful, wash
a sample first. There are some really poor quality silks (and cottons and
wools, etc..) that get really weird if washed too strongly.

Sewing it, depends on the silk. China silk is not a good choice for an
overdress, good for chemises, linings and blouses. The texture of silk will
tell you how easy it will be to sew. It's not any more difficult than any
other fabric - except silk satin and China which can crawl alot.

Be careful of pinholes if it is finely woven.

Be careful not to over iron it. It is a natural fabric and burns elegantly,
plus over ironing anything leaves permanent marks.

Cutting, its always best to pretend it has a nap -like velvet. (All fabrics
have a nap, it shows up on some more than others, it frequently shows on
shiny silks)

The best way to avoid actually ruining it is to wash all the size out.
Spotting is generally how expensive fabrics get spoiled -  once it has
spotted and dried again it may not come out.

Silk is beautiful fabric, not always expensive and I encourage SCA'ers to
use more of it. Think, our current velvets, satins and taffetas, nylon tulle
are all polyester or nylon imitations of the original silk versions. Which
they would have used in the Middle Ages. Silk tulle and velvets are
something to behold, very nice fabrics.

Good Luck, Cassandra

From: iseultnel at aol.com (Iseultnel)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: 25 Mar 1998 23:03:53 GMT

>start to
>tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a
>mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can
>be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing
>version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing).

Nope, close though!!  Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called
Orvus.  Good, inexpensive, gentle.  I buy it at my local feed store, where it
comes in BIG plastic jars (about 1 gal.).  (I actually use it for washing
horses!!) Didn't know it was suitable for fabrics.  Thanks for that tip.
Countess Iseult nicElam, OP  
Teri Pope 
Diamond Horse Ranch--Rio Linda, CA

From: "M. Shirley Chong" <eithne at avalon.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 04:01:19 -0800

Iseultnel wrote:
> >start to
> >tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a
> >mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can
> >be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing
> >version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing).
> 
> Nope, close though!!  Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called
> Orvus.
  
   Perhaps this is a regional thing. I have bought Orvus in feed stores.
I've also bought Horvis (or Horvus, can't remember) in feed stores. Two
different brands and two different prices (Horvis is about half the
price of Orvus for approximately the same quantity).

Shirley

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: shafer at spdcc.com (Mary Shafer)
Subject: Re: Silk questions
Organization: S.P. Dyer Computer Consulting, Cambridge MA
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 1998 19:39:44 GMT

Iseultnel <iseultnel at aol.com> wrote:
>>start to
>>tear away from the seams. What is better for washing silk would be a
>>mild soap, such as a box of Ivory soap flakes, or Orvus paste (which can
>>be obtained from a quilting shop or there's even an animal-washing
>>version for horses called, IIRC, Horvus. Same thing).
>
>Nope, close though!!  Orvus for livestock, including horses, is just called
>Orvus.

The original is named Orvus WA, a trademarked name.  However, there
are hordes of imitators, including Sorvus, Horvus, and Norvus.  I
think the gallon jar I bought from Upco is Norvus, in fact.  Whatever
the name, they're all sodium laureth (or laurel) sulfate.  This is a
mild detergent, very common in shampoos, and has the great advantage
of rinsing out quickly and thoroughly, so that there are no residues.

Buying this detergent at a quilting or needlework shop in an 8-oz
bottle, usually labeled "Quilt Washing Soap", is the most expensive
way to buy it.  Going to a feed store and buying a gallon jar, labeled
"*orvus", is the least expensive.  The current Clotilde catalog has
Orvus Quilt Soap in an 8-oz bottle, retail price $5.80, catalog price
$4.64.  I bought a gallon jar from a discount mail-order animal supply
catalog for about $15 about two years ago (shipping was based on cost,
not weight).  Eight ounces is 1/16th of a gallon.

The stuff behaves very oddly, by the way.  Its melting point is
somewhere around 70 degF; above that it's a light amber liquid, around
that it's a soft white cream, and below that it's a soft white paste.
When it solidifies, it develops a very odd surface pattern, almost
like convection cells.  However, it washes the same in any form,
except that the paste takes a tiny bit longer to dissolve at the
beginning. 
-- 
Mary Shafer  DoD #0362 KotFR  shafer at ursa-major.spdcc.com
URL http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/People/Shafer/mary.html

From: emma at clark.net (Emma Kolstad Antunes)
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wool replacement
Date: 24 Jul 1998 18:10:19 GMT

>Anyone in my neck of the woods know of a good store from which to get
>silk at a reasonalbe price? I need the dress(es) by end of August.

Thai Silks has a web page: http://www.thaisilks.com/  
It's probably your best bet for finding what you need. They have a great
selection & reasonable prices.

Also try Dharma trading company. Their selection of silk isn't as wide,
but the prices are mostly reasonable. Everything they have is white or 
natural, for dying yourself (they sell the dye).  They also have cotton,
hemp, and rayon.  See http://www.dharmatrading.com/ 

-Emma

From: Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue at ricochet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Wool replacement
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:43:39 -0700

> blue noile (spelling?) silk for $4.99 a yard.

Quite useful stuff; I use it sometimes as exactly what the subject line reads.
 Looks thick without being thick, but it does loose its color fairly easily if
you wash it, but that may not be a liability.  

Use of noil in fabric seems to be a phenomenon of this century; the books I've
read indicate it (noil: the random bitten-through cocoon ends that it is made
of) was not considered useful during our period.  Maybe as stuffing, I suppose.
-- 
Lady Cynthia du Pre Argent, Minister of Silly Hats, Crosston

Subject: ANST - link: When Silk Was Gold
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 98 07:29:06 MST
From: "j'lynn yeates" <jyeates at realtime.net>
To: ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG, bryn-gwlad at Ansteorra.ORG

http://www.clemusart.com/exhibit/silk/index.html

[Submitted by: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Silk (was: Re: Really Cheap Fabric....)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:03:01
From: "Joyce A. Baldwin" <jocetta at ibm.net>
To: "The Merry Rose" <atlantia at atlantia.sca.org>

Bridgette wrote (snipped)
>My favorite places are down in Chapel Hill, NC.  "Mulberry Silks"  and "The
>Cotton Boll"  Not really 1.99 a yard types of stores,  but I found that as
>I became more conscious of historical accuracy they were great resources
>for linnen gauze,  silks and pure wools.   Hit them off season,  or having
>one of their "Dogs and Dinosaurs" sales,  and things suddenly enter the
>realm of the reasonable.   It was more a slow fabric stalking process
>rather than a blitzkreig.

A good place to get silk is mail order from Thai Silks in Los Altos, CA
(Phone #  (800) 722-SILK ).   Brochure is free, they will send swatches on
request;  there's technically a charge for that but unless you're asking
for a whole bunch, they don't usually  bother.  Mulberry Silks actually
gets a good many of their silks from them, so you skip the markup.  They're
not actually cheap, but for silk, really quite reasonable.

Sveva mentioned another mail order silk place but I have blanked on the
name.  Sveva?  Are you there?

Jocetta
Joyce A. Baldwin

In the Society for Creative Anachronism:
Lady Jocetta Thrushleigh of Rowansgarth
Exchequer, Canton of Buckston on Eno

[Submitted: rmhowe <magnusm at ncsu.edu>]
Subject: Re: Silk (was: Re: Really Cheap Fabric....)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 22:49:16 -0500
From: "L. Ray Sunderlin" <ray at janrix.com>
To: atlantia at atlantia.sca.org

> Poster: "Mohajerin, Leila" <mohaj001 at onyx.dcri.duke.edu>
>
> I buy silk mostly for dyeing or painting.  This means it is white or
> natural.  I don't have the contact info here with me at work, but some
> of the good suppliers are Dharma Trading Co. and Rupert, Gibbon, and
> Spider.  Both in California.  These are much cheaper than the local
> merchants.
> Sveva
> (collector of fabrics)
{Snipage}

Here's the URL for Dharma Trading Co.
Dharma Trading for Tie-dye, Batik, Dye, Fabric Paint, and Fiber Arts
Supplies

http://www.dharmatrading.com/

Request their free catalouge, it's fill of info.

YIS,  Hargrove the Wanderer
--
L. Ray Sunderlin  ray at janrix.com   73 de KD4EVR   ICQ# 3102499

Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 18:31:51 -0500
From: capriest at cs.vassar.edu (Carolyn Priest-Dorman)
To: sca-arts at raven.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Silk Threads

Ingvild asked:
>A question:  given that all other parameters are the same, which type of
>silk thread would be more correct for medieval textiles:  one with a matte
>finish or one with a shiny finish?

Well, of course, it depends on the textile.  But for the most part the silk
textiles current in medieval Europe were woven of thrown silk, which is
significantly more shiny than the short-fibered spun silk (e.g., dupioni and
noil) we see so much of in the modern world.  Go for the gloss. ;>

Carolyn Priest-Dorman                 Thora Sharptooth
capriest at cs.vassar.edu                Frostahlid, Austrriki

From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with silk
Date: 24 Aug 1999 02:55:28 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Lyrra Madril (lyrra at cybernex.net) wrote:
: Having just returned from War I have been going over my spoils.  One of
: the things that I bought was a wad of silk.  Not cloth, not thread, just
: silk fiber in a flattish deflated pancake shape.  Now what do I do with
: it?  I would like to be able to spin at least some of it, but mostly I
: bought it to make into doll wigs.  (really)

: How do I get the fibers to go in the same direction? Card it like wool?
: Right now it's a flat wad of fluff - no ends that I have found, ot I'd
: just unravel.

There are (very roughly) two ways of processing silk into thread.  One is
"reeling" where the threads of a number of cocoons are unwound from the
cocoons together (and often given a slight twist in the process, although
only very slight).  This process produces the very fine, glossy thread
most characteristically associated with silk.  The other type of process
involves loosening the cocoon in the same way as for reeling but instead
spreading the fibers out into a thin "sheet", and then repeating the
process with many other cocoons until you have a "flattish deflated
pancake shape" (sometimes called a "cap").  This is spun with a spindle by
pulling up a few fibers from the mass to start and then drawing the thread
off the mass just as you would with a carded roll of wool.  This thread
will necessarily be more twisted and less glossy than reeled silk, as well
as normally being thicker.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your description of what you have, you cannot
get the fibers to line up in the "reeled" sense -- for that, you have to
start with cocoons. I have no idea whether carding the mass will do
anything useful, but I don't believe it's part of the usual process.
(Disclaimer: I've taken one class in how to reel silk which included a
brief description of creating and spinning from a "cap". There are things
I don't know about the process.)

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************

Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
From: "Orsini, Eva E." <OrsiniE at health.missouri.edu>
Subject: Help with silk
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 11:35:00 -0500

> Unless I'm misunderstanding your description of what you  have, you cannot
> get the fibers to line up in the "reeled" sense -- for that,  you have to
> start with cocoons. I have no idea whether carding the mass will do
> anything useful, but I don't believe it's part of the usual process.
> (Disclaimer: I've taken one class in how to reel silk which included a
> brief description of creating and spinning from a "cap". 
> There are things I don't know about the process.)
> 
> Tangwystyl

As the caps are a whole mess of very loooonnnggg fibers you would need
to cut it up to card it so it's probably not a good idea.  I have seen
these caps teesed out and spread over a distaff and then spun a little
like flax.

Aoife Ni Aodhagain 

From: "Robert S. McGann" <rsmcgann at us.hsanet.net>
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with silk
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:10:25 -0400

hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu () wrote:
> There are (very roughly) two ways of processing silk into thread.  One is
> "reeling" where the threads of a number of cocoons are unwound from the
> cocoons together (and often given a slight twist in the process, although
> only very slight).  This process produces the very fine, glossy thread
> most characteristically associated with silk.  

One possibility if you want to try "reeling" the silk fiber is to look up
the 19th century equivalent of the Reader's Digest Home Manuals.  One book,
"The Home and Farm Manual" by Jonathan Periam and published originally in
1884, has illustrations of what appear to be various type of reeling
machines, all hand-operated.  While the illustrations all seem to start with
the cocoons, if the threads in your "pancake" can be extracted, these types
of reeling machines could probably transform them into usable thread.

Ribert Diolun of Armagh
mka Bob McGann

From: hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu ()
Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
Subject: Re: Help with silk
Date: 25 Aug 1999 02:00:10 GMT
Organization: University of California at Berkeley

Robert S. McGann (rsmcgann at us.hsanet.net) wrote:
: One possibility if you want to try "reeling" the silk fiber is to look up
: the 19th century equivalent of the Reader's Digest Home Manuals.  One book,
: "The Home and Farm Manual" by Jonathan Periam and published originally in
: 1884, has illustrations of what appear to be various type of reeling
: machines, all hand-operated.  While the illustrations all seem to start with
: the cocoons, if the threads in your "pancake" can be extracted, these types
: of reeling machines could probably transform them into usable thread.

The problem with trying to "reel" thread from a silk "cap" can be imagined
if you visualize the difference between using thread by unwinding it from
a spool versus taking a spool's worth of thread that has been dumped
loosely in a heap and trying to use it by pulling on the nearest section. 
Silk reels neatly off the cocoon because of how it was laid down by the
worm.  Once you've messed up the orderly cocoon, it simply won't reel.  It
can be spun, but it can't be reeled. 

Tangwystyl
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones         hrjones at socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************

Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2005 13:31:07 -0500
From: AEllin Olafs dotter <aellin at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Midrealm News Regarding Cooks
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>

I don't have a clue if Emmelyne cooks at all.

Her work with string, though, especially silk, is quite period and quite
impressive. The string geek lists are rejoicing loudly. (Especially the
people doing detailed research, as well as good craftwork.)

   http://www.silkewerk.com/

though that barely brushs the surface of her work, I gather.

AEllin

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:13:48 -0500
From: "Merritt, Cheryl" <merritt@tatrc.org>
Subject: [SCA-AS] Fabric Question
To: <artssciences@lists.gallowglass.org>

<<< Can anyone tell me what "momi" means?

Solveig Throndardottir >>>

Solveig:

You've hit upon one of the areas I love to study! Momie is the weight
used to measure silk and silk fabrics:

Here is one definition:

Silk is graded by different standards referred to in the industry as the
"momme weight" system. The momme weight of silk is simply the weight, in
pounds, of silk fabric measuring a standard 100 yards by 45 inches. For
example, a standard measure of silk fabric weighing 2 ounces per linear
yard would be a 12.5 momme weight (2/16 x 100) silk fabric. Higher momme
weights indicate that more silk is used in the weaving process. Just for
reference, silk apparel may use 10-12 momme weight, while silk sheets
may use 16 or 19 momme weight silk fabric.

I have several books at home on silk and fabrics and fibers, and will
see if I can provide any more info on it.

Your other question is interesting. I've not seen tables on the
internet. I have several books on fabrics, to include a fabric glossary.
The one thing I've been struck by is that fabric names are not hard and
fast. They may refer to a specific type of fabric, or a weave structure,
or a fiber. I've seen broadcloth described one way for historical
purposes, but then I've seen for sale cotton broadcloth and silk
broadcloth. And all of this is complicated by the fact that over time,
names change. So what we know as one fabric today had a different name
historically. 

I've also noted that various references will describe historical fabrics
differently. 

When I teach fabric classes, I have binders with fabric swatches that
I've collected over the years so I can show what a contemporary
gabardine looks like compared to crepe or a twill, and I try and
distinguish fabrics by their fiber content and their weave structure,
and not so much by what they may be called by the marketers.

Please let me know if you have any specific questions, and I'll see if I
can help answer your questions.

Lady Alessandra

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:40:39 -0500
From: Ealasaid <ealasaid@cox.net>
Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] [Fwd: [Sca-cooks] 50 years of "Medieval
	Archeology" publication now online]
To: Fabric.Question@mx5.syr.edu, 	Arts and Sciences in the SCA
	<artssciences@lists.gallowglass.org>

"momi silk" is also an extremely lightweight, yet very strong, almost translucent silk used in the lining of kimonos.

Ealasaid

Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 12:39:22 -0600
From: "Fullam, Mary E." <Mary.E.Fullam@ssa.gov>
Subject: Re: [SCA-AS] pushed send too fast, here's more:::Re: Fabric
	Question
To: "Arts and Sciences in the SCA"
	<artssciences@lists.gallowglass.org>

There's a unit of measure called a 'momme' which designates the weight
of silk fabric; the higher the number, the heavier the weight.  Dharma
has an explanation of it here:

http://www.dharmatrading.com/cgi-bin/descript_cont.cgi?objid=1634599-AA

Fabric.net has tables that I refer to periodically, broken down by fiber content and then the types of weaves associated with that fiber:

http://www.fabrics.net/weaves.asp    

As for the historical terms and how they vary just through out period,
well, that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.  I don't know of anything
online in one website that would tell you what the names of all the
weaves were in period.

Fionnabhair

From: "Janice R. Gaulke" <SouthWindHall@AOL.COM>
Date: September 18, 2011 1:33:03 PM CDT
To: CALONTIR@listserv.unl.edu
Subject: [CALONTIR] sharp silk

> Is there a lot of trouble with bleeding when working with silk?
> -Gwydion

<< Only if the silk is VERY sharp.

(sorry....It's Friday...couldn't resist.)

Fiondel >>

I just checked to see if I still have the scar from where a thread on a silk ribbon I was weaving cut my finger.  That was 15 years ago and I'm glad to say the scar has faded.  Note to fiber people:  Doing fine silk on an inkle loom is bloody dangerous -- literally!  Under tension the thread becomes like wire, and if you press the warp down with a finger like I tend to do you are risking cuts.  That stuff can go into you like a wire into cheese.

Jenna

Subject: Re: silk question
Posted by: "mamluk@yahoo.com"
Date: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:16 am ((PST))

<<< Isn't China Silk (habotai) used for banners? How period is it?

Morin >>>

I believe habotai is period. There is an extant garment in Germany made of red silk with medallions in it that looks like the smooth, light qualities of habotai. Once I have a computer again I will link an image of the garment. The Italians were importing silk from China and the middle east fairly early, and had begun making their own by the fourteenth century. First by unraveling Persian silks and reweaving them, and later by smuggling silk worms and mulberry trees to Italy. It really its fascinating, and there are some great sources available.

From: Deborah Wade <rhiannonferchcian@yahoo.com>
Date: March 11, 2012 8:00:09 AM CDT
To: "Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc." <ansteorra@lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Any Weavers *NOT* at Gulf War???

<<< I'm not a weaver, but why does silk require more care than weaving with cotton or wool?

   Stefan >>>

Silk snags very easily and tends to snarl more than cotton or wool when weaving yardgoods

Rhiannon

From the FB "SCA Garb" group:
Skye George
7/1/15
Does dupioni silk have a good side and bad side?

Charles Mellor 
IIRC, the side intended to be used shows more of the slubs, but for SCA use the other side probably would be better. In any case, it's entirely possible for a fabric like that to also have a subtle difference in reflectivity, so keep track as you cut it to use only one side. Otherwise you could end up with garb where one piece of the fabric looks darker (or lighter) than all the rest. I've been surprised by fabric that didn't seem to have any difference in sides (or nap) when I cut it, but in certain lighting conditions the difference was noticeable.

Beatrice Domenici della Campana 
Shiny fabric can also be directional, in addition to being sided, even if it doesn't have an obvious 'nap', so that might be something to consider when deciding how to lay out your pattern pieces.

From: 12thcenturygarb@yahoogroups.com
Subject: addorsed stags
Posted by:  snspies@aol.com snspies
Date: Mon Sep 21, 2015 8:47 am ((PDT))

You do have the dates correct for this kind of design.  However -- and this is for everyone on the list -- if you see 13th- or 14th-century silk fabrics attributed to Sicily, that is incorrect.  Frederick II removed all the weavers from Sicily in the early 13th century and all those 13th- and 14th-century silks were woven in Lucca and other southern Italian cities.

Nancy

From the fb "SCA Garb" group:

Lily Walbridge
December 9 at 8:07pm · Austin, TX
Hillary Jones recently asked if anyone has bought from Puresilks, and following that thought I wondered if anyone had bought from Silk Baron, and could tell me what they thought. They look like they have a nice selection, and I have emailed with them a couple of times, but I have yet to buy. Are their colors reasonable/period? How is the weight of their silks?
https://www.silkbaron.com/

Kimiko Small 
I've only bought their silk dupioni, and it was slubby, but I loved the color. I understand from a friend that their service is quite good, and selection very good. As to period colors, I doubt it. They are all chemically dyed, not naturally dyed, and there are subtle differences between the two. But quite passably good if you look for colors used from whatever period you are looking for. I suggest getting machine woven dupioni for less slubs. I didn't and that was a regret after.

Lily Walbridge 
Wouldn't slightly slubby be more period?

Carrie Hulsing 
Slubby is modern "design Feature" Medieval buyers would have found it to be a product of shoddy spinners.

Kimiko Small 
Slubs in silk were considered a lesser sort, and often not allowed for export. They might be available in certain weaving cities as cheap 2nds, for those unable to afford better quality, but it also clearly marked those who wear it as such. So, it depends on time, location, and persona as to its suitability. But the amount of Slubs we get modernly is quite a lot, deliberately made prominent. And it will make sewing a little more difficult, going over bumps, and having large wads of fluff get in your way. It is also prone to fray more.

Heather Murray 
However, some nice, closer approximation to period fabric includes their taffeta. Even the shot taffeta - that's totally period for at least late period folks. Charmeuse is a current reasonable approximation. However, the one I *really* want a sample of is the Duchesse satin. 

Duchesse satin, AKA "peau de soie" or "skin of silk," is a heavier satin, closer to the weight in SCA-era satins for at least the late period to which I tend. It isn't quite close as it could be, but usually an interlining (sewing the pieces to something like a lighter weight linen or linen blend in my case, and then acting from then on that those pieces are one piece for the purposes of construction) will lend a pleasant weight to the appearance, drape, and behavior. Example of such below - the skirt is a silk warp with a rayon weft. It was as thin as window-dressing voile and acted only a little heavier than that. I sewed on the yellow strip and then interlined the whole thing with a mediumweight linen-rayon blend (and before cartridge pleating it on to the waistband. In this picture this resembles a much heavier weight of silk and it behaves that way, too, as in the second pic I'll post below this comment, where I'm mid-silly-spin.

Heather Murray 
Anyway, all this is to say that the dup is nice, the satin and taffeta are great but if you can at all afford it, spring for that duchesse!

Ann-Juliette Genevieve 
I love the taffeta. Charmeuse and Thai silk. Not so fond of the dupont but it comes in the right colours - or nearly the right colours as they are chemical dyes and not natural - but close enough for me. I tend to use the dupioni for slips that don't show much.

From the FB "Artisans of the Society for Creative Anachronism" group

Kelly Roubo
10/2/16
Not sure who, if anyone, might be interested as it's a pretty specialized text, but I'd hate for someone to miss it. ^_^

Chinese Silks - Dieter Kuhn, ed. James C.Y. Watt, foreword. - Daedalus Books Online
DAEDALUSBOOKS.COM

<the end>